O'scugnizzo's

[rpmfla]

O'scugnizzo's Pizza is what I grew up eating during my youth in upstate NY. It got started in Utica and now there are I think 2 other locations in central NY. It is characterized by the rectangular shape (cooked in a rectangular dark metal pan) and has been nicknamed the "upside down" pizza due to the application of sauce last after the other ingredients (and even after the pizza is baked). The only thing on top of the sauce is a generous sprinkling of parm.

There is an interesting story on their website of how it evolved from the humble Tomato Pie sold from a cart way back in 1914. So, their 100 year anniversary is coming up soon! I may have to take a trip back there for that.

The crust is a touch thicker than the Pizza Hut hand-tossed but not as thick as a pan pizza or a Detroit style. Maybe a little thinner than a Papa John's. It is slightly crispy on the bottom but soft and tender on the inside. The sauce is very basic and if anything maybe a touch salty (not sweet like PJs). The cheese is put on in slices and is just your basic mozz (probably Grande).

Since I moved away from upstate NY, I have spend years trying to reproduce that pizza. I have gotten very close and will post my ingredients/methods in following posts.

I think we all here have a special pizza that we grew up with and if we have moved away we try to reproduce it. I love pizza and I make thin, round, rectangular, very thick, in a pan, on a stone, and a variety of others. However the O'scugnizzo's style remains my favorite.

I've included a pic here but it is just something I got off the web. I may have some of my own somewhere which are better than this one.

[rpmfla]

Unfortunately, my Thai mother-in-law is with us for a couple of weeks so I won't be making any pizza until next week, but I wanted to post a bit more about my pizza efforts. Fortunately my Thai wife loves my pizza, but her mom only likes Thai food and is not interested in bread at all.


Here is a link to the pan I chose to use (pic below as well).

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001VH70WM/?tag=pmak-20

It is an amazing pan. The more I use it the better it gets. At first I would gently slide a spatula under the pie to make sure it was not sticking anywhere, but lately I haven't found any parts of the pizza stuck to the pan...even on Detroit Style with cheese right up to the edges. The sides are only about 1.25 inches high so it is not ideal for super thick pizza but I am not into that style anyway. For O'scugnizzo's style it is perfect.

Sauce:

I have pretty much settled on Tomato Magic as my favorite pizza sauce. For thin NY style I pretty much just use it straight from the can, for Detroit Style I add a little sugar and some other spices, and for O'scugnizzo's I add a few drops of hot sauce. Before I discovered Tomato Magic, for O'scugnizzo's sauce I was using one "box" of Pomi crushed tomatoes along with one can of tomato paste, 1/4 cup of pepperoncini juice, a teaspoon of hot sauce, and a tablespoon of dried basil. Muir Glenn crushed tomatoes where also tried...and liked. Obviously, the Pomi and Muir Glenn are much easier and cheaper to obtain.

Cheese:

For Oscugnizzo's style rectangular pizza, I usually use the Sargento whole milk mozz sliced. I have ordered the Grande (when I ordered Tomato Magic) from PenMac and that works great, but I must admit I expected more of a difference from the ones I can buy at my local grocery. It is good but didn't blow me away.

Sausage:

At O'scugnizzo's (at least the last time I had one), they take raw Hot Italian sausage and spread it on the dough in the pan in a fairly thin layer. They do not cook it first and they do not break it up into pieces. It is the first thing that goes down on the dough (then the sliced cheese goes next, followed by whatever other ingredients...mushrooms, bell peppers). This is fairly unique and I struggled for a long time both with worrying about it being thoroughly cooked and with dealing with all the juices that come out of the meat to make the dough soggy. O'scugnizzo's must use very lean meat, as the juices can add up to a lot on a pizza this size, but the center pieces on their pizza do tend to get somewhat soggy (my dad always ate the center pieces as us kids were not "skilled" enough to hold them and would make a big mess). I have since made this one adjustment to my O'scugnizzo's clone as I now take the sausage and press it in a thin layer in a pan and precook it and remove whatever juices the meat produces. Then I place these (cooled) thin pieces of sausage on the dough. I end up with a much less soggy pie.

In the next few days I'll post a pic or two of my past attempts at an O'scugnizzo's clone, as well as my dough formulation. The dough was always hit or miss for me before I found pizzamaking.com, but now I have gotten pretty consistent and able to produce quality NY, Detroit, and O'scugnizzo's style pies.

[anton-luigi]

Ahhhhhhh,  embrace that %$# while you can,  Thai food is wonderful!!!  You can get back to pizza in a few weeks.

[rpmfla]

Ahhhhhhh,  embrace that %$# while you can,  Thai food is wonderful!!!  You can get back to pizza in a few weeks.

What did you call my mother-in-law?

Yes, I love Thai food too...I just rarely go two weeks without pizza!

[rpmfla]

I found another pan that I think is great for making O'scugnizzo's Pizza Clone (deep enough for Detroit Style too).

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00192IW3K/?tag=pmak-20

It may be less authentic than the blue steel pan listed above, but it works great and supposedly makes use of a non-toxic non-stick coating. Plus...it's red!

[rpmfla]

For my O'Scugnizzo's Pizza dough, I use the following for two @ 600g each. This works with either of the pans listed above.

730g Flour
436g water
11g sea salt
11g honey
11g OO
11g Starter
1/4 tsp IDY

R.P.M. O’Scugnizzo’s Pizza

****This dough formulation is intended for use in a rectangular pan. It will not work in a round pan or directly on a pizza stone. In fact, it may explode if placed in a round pan or directly on a pizza stone.****

 *Starter/IDY amounts will vary depending on the strength of your starter. Generally, the starter imparts flavor and the IDY gives the dough more spring in the oven. If omitting starter, add an additional ¼ tsp IDY.

1. Place room temperature water in mixer bowl. Add salt and stir to dissolve.

2. Add the remaining ingredients and mix for 8 minutes using the dough hook attachment.

3. Extract the dough onto a lightly floured surface and hand knead for about a minute.

4. Divide the dough in half and place into lightly oiled rectangular 5-6 cup containers. Cover.

5. Place the containers in the refrigerator for 2-7 days (a longer, cold rise adds flavor). The dough can also be used as a same-day dough with an 8 hr. room temperature rise, but the combination of the starter and a long refrigerated rise results in a more flavorful dough.

For use:

Remove the container of dough from the refrigerator and let it come to room temperature (~2 hours).

Oil your rectangular pan with 1-2 tablespoons of oil spread over the bottom and up the sides of the pan, then extract the dough from the container into your oiled pan. Press the dough out evenly to fill the pan up to the edges. If the dough wants to pull back after stretching, let it relax for 20 minutes or so and then press out to the edges again.

Allow the dough to rise in the pan for 2-4 hours, depending on how warm your kitchen is. The dough should rise a little and look slightly puffy.

Assembly:

Pre-heat your oven to 475 degrees.

For an authentic O’Scugnizzo’s experience, the pizza is assembled in an “upside down” manner. The first thing to place on the dough is the sliced mozzarella, followed by any other ingredients you choose. The pizza is then baked for 12-15 minutes. After you take the pizza out of the oven, remove it from the pan and place on a wire cooling rack. This is when you spoon a thin layer of sauce on, followed lastly by a sprinkling of Parmesan cheese.

Suggestions:

For O'scugnizzo's Pizza sauce I originally started out using one "box" of Pomi crushed tomatoes along with one can of tomato paste, 1/4 cup of pepperoncini juice (from a jar of pepperoncinis...mild greek peppers), a few drops of hot sauce, and a tablespoon of dried basil. Muir Glenn crushed tomatoes where also tried...and worked. I then began using Tomato Magic and if you can find it locally I highly recommend it, and 6 in 1's are good also. Basically, you want a bright tomato flavor which is more salty than sweet and is just a bit spicy.

Do not leave off the Parmesan on top to finish it off. At O'Scugnizzo's it was on the pizza when it came out to the table and it is the first flavor you taste when biting into a piece.

Photos to follow...

By the way, I did no research into actual ingredients that go into O'Scugnizzo's Pizza, so calling this a clone would be inaccurate. It is totally based on eating their pizzas all of my life and gradually developing a method of producing something very close in my own kitchen.

[Chicago Bob]

This pizza sounds good...you have a pic of your latest masterpiece rpmfla ?

[rpmfla]

1.Beginning to mix
2. Almost done mixing
3. Dough ball
4. Divided into 2 @600g and placed in separate rectangular Glad containers sprayed lightly with Baker's Secret.
5. Lids on containers and then into the refrigerator.
6. Side view of dough in the container before placing in the refrigerator

[rpmfla]

1. Side view of container after two days in the refrigerator and 6 hrs out on the counter before use.
2. Dough extracted from the container into the oiled pan.
3. Dough pressed out to the edges of the pan. I came back 30 min. later to stretch it into the corners.
4. Hot Italian sausage pressed thin and precooked to remove liquid.
5. Tomato Magic, my favorite all-purpose tomato sauce.
6. The dough after rising in the pan for a couple of hours.
7. The dough with sliced mozzarella cheese.
8. The ingredients my family used to order...sausage, green peppers, and mushrooms.

Now it is into the oven for about 13 minutes at 475.

[rpmfla]

1. Just out of the oven.
2. On a cooling rack, adding the sauce.
3. Finished off with grated Parmesan cheese (and a sprinkling of red pepper flakes).
4. To give you an idea of the thickness.
5. Cut with a rocker knife into 12 pieces.

[rpmfla]

1. Side view of a slice
2. End view of remaining slices.

This is dedicated to my niece Cacey, who has also moved away from Upstate NY so she shares my desire to recreate the pizza we grew up loving.

[Pete-zza]

Rod,

Great job. Thank you for all the work you put into this. I was especially impressed with the artistic way that you dressed the pizza, as shown in Replies 8 and 9.

Peter

[rpmfla]

Rod,

Great job. Thank you for all the work you put into this. I was especially impressed with the artistic way that you dressed the pizza, as shown in Replies 8 and 9.

Peter

Thank you Peter.

[corkd]

that looks great! O'scugnizzo is about an hour from me. Time for another trip there!
When I go, I will remember to photograph....
-Clay

[rpmfla]

that looks great! O'scugnizzo is about an hour from me. Time for another trip there!
When I go, I will remember to photograph....
-Clay

I just read recently that the Washington Mills branch closed as the owner is retiring. I hope he retires to Tampa and gets the itch to open a pizza place here!

Maybe you could check out his daughter's new place in New Hartford. Of course the original Utica location is still going strong.

http://www.obabyspizza.com/

[rpmfla]

By the way, the above recipe/method makes use of either AP flour or Bread flour. I can't tell much difference in the results from when I use KAAP or KABF.

I did recently try an experiment with this recipe/method substituting Caputo flour instead of the typical AP or Bread flour, and while it worked ok, the resulting pizza crust had two fairly significant differences.

1. It did not brown as well.

2. The crust was tougher and more chewy.

The first issue I can live with. The second makes the use of caputo flour a no-go for me. I desire a crust which is crispy on the surface and tender on the inside. I think maybe Caputo Flour is better for use in really high temperature ovens.

I also noticed that the dough balls were wetter than they usually are with the other flours.

Any of you pizza scientists (ahem...Peter...ahem) know why there is such a difference with caputo?

[Pete-zza]

By the way, the above recipe/method makes use of either AP flour or Bread flour. I can't tell much difference in the results from when I use KAAP or KABF.

I did recently try an experiment with this recipe/method substituting Caputo flour instead of the typical AP or Bread flour, and while it worked ok, the resulting pizza crust had two fairly significant differences.

1. It did not brown as well.

2. The crust was tougher and more chewy.

The first issue I can live with. The second makes the use of caputo flour a no-go for me. I desire a crust which is crispy on the surface and tender on the inside. I think maybe Caputo Flour is better for use in really high temperature ovens.

I also noticed that the dough balls were wetter than they usually are with the other flours.

Any of you pizza scientists (ahem...Peter...ahem) know why there is such a difference with caputo?

Rod,

I took the liberty of converting your dough formulation to baker's percent format so that I could better see what you are doing. To do this, I used the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, and used one of the unused entries as a proxy for the starter. The actual baker's percents will be a bit different than what I have shown below because of the flour and water content of your starter, but the amount of starter, at about 1.5%, is so small that its impact on the numbers will be essentially negligible. Here is what I get:

Flour (100%): Water (59.726%): IDY (0.10316%): Sea Salt (1.5068%): Olive Oil (1.5068%): Honey (1.5068%): Starter (1.5068%): Total (165.85636%):

730 g  |  25.75 oz | 1.61 lbs 436 g  |  15.38 oz | 0.96 lbs 0.75 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.25 tsp | 0.08 tbsp 11 g | 0.39 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.97 tsp | 0.66 tbsp 11 g | 0.39 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.44 tsp | 0.81 tbsp 11 g | 0.39 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.57 tsp | 0.52 tbsp 11 g | 0.39 oz | 0.02 lbs 1210.75 g | 42.71 oz | 2.67 lbs | TF = N/A

Note: Dough is for two pizzas, each using a dough ball weighing 1210.75/2 = 605.38 grams; no bowl residue compensation; for a 600-gram dough ball used in a 17.2" x 11.2" rectangular pan such as shown at https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00192IW3K/?tag=pmak-20 the corresponding thickness factor = [600/28.35)/(17.2 x 11.2)] = 0.10986.

Now, turning to your first question, the reason why you did not get much crust color when using the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour is because that flour is unmalted. That means that you are not going to get a lot of natural sugars released from the damaged starch by the action of the amylase enzymes that are naturally present in the flour. As a result, the residual sugar level at the time of baking will be fairly low, even after a fairly long cold ferment. Also, the Caputo flour has less damaged starch than our domestic flours such that you will get less natural sugars for that reason also. The reality is that the Caputo flour is also not well adapted to the typical home oven. It is engineered for very high temperature ovens, as you noted yourself. I suppose that it is possible that you will get more crust coloration and a more tender crumb if you increase the amount of honey or oil or if you add some diastatic malt to the Caputo flour. However, if it is true that the Caputo flour has a low level of damaged starch, adding diastatic malt without increasing the amount of damaged starch might be counterproductive and lead to a pasty dough.

With respect to your second question, nothing jumps out at me from your dough formulation to suggest the results you achieved. However, what sometimes happens when a 00 dough is baked in a home oven is that the pizza is baked longer than normal, in an attempt to coax more color out of the crust. But the longer bake usually yields a drier and tougher and more chewy crust. If that happened in your case, you could add a bit more honey or olive oil, or use a shorter bake at a higher temperature, or some combination of these measures. However, some of these measures may yield a wetter dough that may require some stretch and folds to become properly hydrated. The rated absorption value of the Caputo 00 flour is a few percent lower than our domestic all-purpose and bread flours, so that alone can mean a wetter dough if you do not lower the hydration value.

I think I would skip the 00 flour and stay with your KAAP or KABF or comparable flours.

Peter

[rpmfla]

Thanks for the excellent reply Peter!

Yes, I intend to continue using AP or Bread Flour in the future for this recipe. I was out of the regular flour and I had some Caputo in the pantry so I tried it. I thought I had recalled that Caputo was meant for higher temps but when you want to make pizza sometimes you use what you have on hand. I had the Caputo from when I tried it for a thin NY style (I think I did half Caputo and half KASL) and that cooked at my oven's max (550).

I didn't have it in the oven any longer than usual so that wasn't the reason for the texture difference. Perhaps Caputo just does not do well with the lower temps that this recipe uses.

By the way, concerning my starter...

1. I started it here in my kitchen and didn't purchase it. I've never compared it to a purchased (known quality) starter so I don't really know how "strong" it is.

2. Each time I feed it I use equal parts starter, water, and flour...so that means it is 50% hydration correct?

[Pete-zza]

2. Each time I feed it I use equal parts starter, water, and flour...so that means it is 50% hydration correct?

Rod,

To calculate the hydration of your starter, you need to know the weight of the flour and the weight of the water that make up the starter. Then you divide the weight of the water by the weight of the flour and multiply by 100 to get the percent. So, for example, if your starter is 100 grams of flour and 50 grams of water, the hydration is 50/100 = 0.5 x 100 = 50%. You can't calculate the hydration using volume measurements.

If you are using equal parts of starter, water and flour, you will have to first break down the starter into flour and water and then add those weights to the weights of the flour and water that you add to the starter. Then you divide the total weight of water by the total weight of the flour to calculate the hydration (as above). For the small amount of starter that you are using, the numbers are going to be too small to matter. However, if you were using say, 45% starter, then the composition of the starter becomes much more important. Over time, with regular feedings using the same weights of flour and water for each feeding, the hydration will be based on the weights of the flour and water used for the feedings. Most people don't strive for mathematical purity. They generally learn how much flour and water to add to their starters by volume to achieve the desired hydration value.

Peter

[rpmfla]

Rod,

To calculate the hydration of your starter, you need to know the weight of the flour and the weight of the water that make up the starter. Then you divide the weight of the water by the weight of the flour and multiply by 100 to get the percent. So, for example, if your starter is 100 grams of flour and 50 grams of water, the hydration is 50/100 = 0.5 x 100 = 50%. You can't calculate the hydration using volume measurements.

If you are using equal parts of starter, water and flour, you will have to first break down the starter into flour and water and then add those weights to the weights of the flour and water that you add to the starter. Then you divide the total weight of water by the total weight of the flour to calculate the hydration (as above). For the small amount of starter that you are using, the numbers are going to be too small to matter. However, if you were using say, 45% starter, then the composition of the starter becomes much more important. Over time, with regular feedings using the same weights of flour and water for each feeding, the hydration will be based on the weights of the flour and water used for the feedings. Most people don't strive for mathematical purity. They generally learn how much flour and water to add to their starters by volume to achieve the desired hydration value.

Peter

I was too vague in my previous post, as I weigh everything. Each time I feed my starter, I take equal parts by weight. So, I will use 50g of my starter and add 50g of water, mix it, then add 50g of flour and mix vigorously. I have been doing this once or twice a week for over a year now.

I tried relying on just my starter for the rise but found I liked the texture of the pizza better with the addition of some IDY too. I do also use a fairly long rise in a refrigerator...sometimes as long as 6 days. I think the starter and long, cold rise imparts a bit more flavor to the dough.