Pizza Making Forum

Pizza Making => Detroit Style => Topic started by: gschwim on September 22, 2006, 06:53:53 PM

Title: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: gschwim on September 22, 2006, 06:53:53 PM
Anyone here from Detroit?  Anyone familiar with Buddy's Pizza or Shield's Pizza?  It's similar to Sicilian, but not identical.  Any idea of what the recipe would be, at least for the dough?
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Lydia on November 02, 2006, 10:27:09 PM
Hay there again Gene

I think I might have Sheild's, but I haven't given it a try.  I'm not at my PC right now, but I'll check and post it, if I have the correct SHeild's pizza recipe.

Here it is I found it in my email folder. It's from Fox morning news in Detriot.
Quote
FOX 2 News Morning Recipes
SHIELDS PIZZA, MAKING PIZZA AT HOME
CALL 248-356-2720 FOR MORE INFORMATION
ASK FOR PEPT ANDONI
SHIELD'S HOME RECIPE FOR PIZZA DOUGH
Preheat oven to 440°
3 cups white flour
1 teaspoon salt
1-½ teaspoon sugar
1 tablespoon instant dried yeast
1-½ tablespoon whole-wheat flour
2 tablespoons vegetable oil
1-1/4 cups water
In a large mixing bowl combine water, salt, sugar and vegetable oil. Add white flour, whole-wheat flour and instant dried yeast - knead for five minutes until doughy. Turn dough out of the bowl and separate into two halves. Form in circles and let stand for five minutes. Roll dough to 14 inch round pizza crust and let stand for five minutes. Apply toppings. Cook in preheated oven on middle rack for 15 minutes.
SHIELD'S TWO ORIGINAL LOCATIONS ARE 1476 WEST MAPPLE IN TROY, 248/637-3131 AND 25101 TELEGRAPH IN SOUTHFIELD, 248/356-2720. OTHER LOCATIONS INCLUDE DEARBORN, COMMERCE TWP. AND SHELBY TWP.

Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: gschwim on November 02, 2006, 11:48:15 PM
Lydia,

So do you live in the Detroit area?

I'm a little confused in that I remember Shield's pizza as being served in rectangular pans, but I'm going to give the recipe a try.

Thanks.

Gene
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Locke on November 03, 2006, 12:23:30 AM
10 minutes of total rise time  :o ??? Another case of the "home" recipes bearing no resemblance to their commercial product at all?
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on November 03, 2006, 07:23:10 AM
I will be very interested in Gene's results.

Peter
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: rickmos on November 03, 2006, 08:52:39 PM
I was born and raised in CLAWSON. Where are you from?
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Lydia on November 04, 2006, 01:37:17 PM
Gene

I've only been in Detriot in the airport during a flight change-over. So, I'm not even familar with Sheild's beyond this recipe and checking out their home page for a picture reference. Which as you mentioned is indeed square.


Quote
Another case of the "home" recipes bearing no resemblance to their commercial product at all?

Locke.. I completely agree that this recipe is lacking.
I posted it because these "recipes" can sometimes help to serve as a baseline if they produce a similar product. Which they "should" and hopefully it will.

This recipe really caught my attention because it actually calls for IDY.

Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: gschwim on November 04, 2006, 10:54:29 PM
I'm from Detroit, of course.  Isn't everyone?   ;D

I'll have to disagree slightly about the rising time.  Yes, the rising time may be shorter than what site members prefer, but the idea, in this case, is not to make the best "objective" dough, but to duplicate Shield's pizza dough.  Perhaps, they really do use a short rise time; on the Food Channel, I watched Jaime Oliver do a live show where he ordered a pizza from Domino's, then proceeded to make his own pizze from scratch and have it finished before the Domino's pizza arrived.  Audience members sampled Jaime's pizza and no one complained about the taste.

No doubt, if Shield's uses a fast rise time, a longer rise time would make it even better.  But then, no one has ever accused us Detroiters of having overly sophisticated palates...   ;D
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: steverino on November 05, 2006, 12:52:12 PM
I'm personally a big fan of Loui's pizza.  It's on Dequindre, just north of nine mile.  I believe there is some intermingling history between Shield's, Buddy's and Loui's.  Like the pizzamakers worked together at some point, or their families, or something, and at some point there were separations.  All different pizzas, but very much "Detroit Style" in the similarity of the crusts.  I've been trying to replicate the Loui's crust for years.  I'm close, it's good, but not quite there.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: gschwim on November 06, 2006, 12:43:01 AM
I just made a pretty good attempt.  Unfortunately, I forgot which dough recipe I used, but I think it was the foccacia dough recipe from Reinhart's American Pie.  I do remember the dough being very soft and not "fragile" (i.e., not much gluten).  I squirted some olive oil on the bottom of an dark, 8x8 square cake pan and used a brush to coat the entire pan.  I put two layers of sliced mozzarella on the bottom, then pepperoni, another layer of cheese, a mixture of browned sweet and hot Italian sausage (too much; I'll use less next time), two more layers of slied mozzarella and four big dabs of 6-in-1 straight out of the can.  I baked it at 450 degrees for about 15 minutes.

It's been 30 years since I left Detroit, so I don't know how close it was to Shield's or Buddy's, but whatever it was, it was surprisingly good.  The dough was a bit "puffy," with a thin bottom/outside and the of the dough being crunchy, and the rest -- well, the best way I can describe it is, "melt in your mouth."

When I run out of my current batch of dough, I'll try to duplicate my results and if I'm successful, I'll post the exact recipe so that others can try it and let me know what they think.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: VICIII on April 02, 2008, 09:52:55 AM
I'm personally a big fan of Loui's pizza.  It's on Dequindre, just north of nine mile.  I believe there is some intermingling history between Shield's, Buddy's and Loui's.  Like the pizzamakers worked together at some point, or their families, or something, and at some point there were separations.  All different pizzas, but very much "Detroit Style" in the similarity of the crusts.  I've been trying to replicate the Loui's crust for years.  I'm close, it's good, but not quite there.

I am a huge fan of Buddys and shields...
what recipe do you have?  Do Tell
I still have a home in Sylvan Lake MI
I crave a buddys daily.  I miss that pizza and antipasta salads.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: putnam on April 03, 2008, 07:12:28 PM
Wait. How is it even possible for commercial pizza to undergo only 10 minutes rise? I can't imagine it.

"Hurry, this dough was mixed 30 minutes ago. Use it quick!"

Imagine the labor involved. You'd have to be mixing individual dough portions. For what?
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on April 03, 2008, 08:10:35 PM
Putnam,

The Shields dough recipe is one intended to be used in the home, not in a commercial operation. No commercial operation would ever make dough in ten minutes, even emergency doughs. I estimate that one tablespoon of IDY is about 2.4% by weight of flour. That is better than double what is commonly used to make an emergency dough with IDY. So, it is possible that the dough can be made and used fairly promptly. Using warm water will help make the dough even faster than using cooler water.

Peter
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: putnam on April 03, 2008, 10:04:42 PM
Totally. So we agree the home recipe is not a reasonable approximation of the original.

It's not about what "site members prefer."

As faint as it is, one can taste lactic acid in Shields' dough.

Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: VICIII on April 04, 2008, 09:21:25 AM
Totally. So we agree the home recipe is not a reasonable approximation of the original.

It's not about what "site members prefer."

As faint as it is, one can taste lactic acid in Shields' dough.



And what seems like sherry in there sauce.  A very sweet sauce.  I am not a fan of shields sauce...  Great dough/ crust and toppings but sauce is too sweet.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: steve in FL on May 17, 2008, 05:52:13 PM
Hi all.. I also originated from the Detroit area, east suburbs, grew up in Macomb County. I have had Shields and/or Buddy's once or twice, but since they weren't nearby, we rarely went out for them. We used to hit them up before a night on the town, whipping it up in Detroit, People-Mover, dancing, greek saganaki, the whole nine-yards.. (that was before the casinos came to town - I miss everything.. lol.. ) anyhow, Gene mentioned that when he attempted his clone, he layered cheese, toppings, then covered with sauce - is that how Sheilds/Buddy's also did it? That sounds Chicagoan, but I didn't remember if they did theirs that way?

I have been a fan of Buscemi's Sicilian pizza throughout high school, up until I relocated to Tampa Bay (14 years ago). I recently went back for a family visit, and had to stop in and get some Buscemis.. sadly, their pizza was totally re-branded and resembles nothing like it used to be in the late 70's.. sigh.. Buscemi's Pizza and Subs was not a restaurant, actually it was a 'party store' (as they were called in MI) that sold pizza by the slice and Italian subs.. which also took a dive, I've found..

Anyhow, I have been somewhat successful in cloning the Buscemi technique, using various dough recipes.. seems the trick of the texture is all in the technique - you allow the dough to rise a bit in a heavily oiled pan, then bake at 450 for 4 minutes. Sauce, toppings, cheese, then an additional 'drizzle' of sauce, and baked again until cheese is melted.

I was planning on making one later tonite, using the dough recipe Lydia posted above from Shields, but am hoping someone might notice my note and confirm if the restaurants do the topping technique in the order that Gene mentioned?

- steve
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Mendocino on September 02, 2008, 06:29:57 PM
Hey Steve

I too thought Buscemi's was the best 'deep dish" style pizza as a ute.  They had indeed changed their ways sometime in the early 90's, though the shop on Hall road and Van dyke in Utica is still fairly good compared to the others.  Had you manged to duplicate their sweet/oregano sauce?

I have now lived in Northhern Cal, and I can stste there is hardly any good pie to be found, "any style", round here.  With the help of my buddy Bola Bola, I am back into making it myself.

Jake
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: BDoggPizza on October 16, 2008, 04:24:40 PM
Here's the Detroit Style Recipe I use and its comes out just about perfect for me.  We have a local joint here in Iowa that makes Detroit style and I think mine is better.  Try this and see what you think....this is for a 13 inch pan.

Detroit Style Pizza

Dough Recipe               
Flour    9 oz               
Water    5.68 oz just under ¾ cup                   
IDY    1/3 tsp                
Salt    1 tsp               
Oil    ½ tsp                
Sugar    1 1/3 tsp

Toppings
70% Shredded Mozzarella cheese
30% Mild white cheddar cheese
Pizza sauce
meat & veggies

Add the yeast to the flour in a bowl and stir.  Put the water into the bowl of the stand mixer, add the salt and sugar. Stir for about a minute to dissolve the salt & sugar in the water. Using the stir speed of the mixer, gradually add the flour mixture to the water mixture. Once the flour has been taken up by the water and has formed a rough dough ball, add the oil and knead that in, at the stir speed until it has been fully incorporated into the dough. Once the dough has incorporated the oil, continue kneading the dough, at 1 or 2 speed, until the dough takes on a smooth texture and consistency and is elastic, about 5 minutes. It should be a bit tacky--not wet or dry.  It may be necessary to add a bit more flour or a bit more water to achieve the desired finished condition. Once the dough looks right, remove it from the mixer bowl and knead it by hand for about 30 seconds to a minute. If the dough feels a little bit sticky at this point, the final hand kneading will usually cause the stickiness to disappear, so don't be tempted to overcome it by adding more flour. Refrigerate for 24 hrs or up to 48 hrs in an oiled container.

Remove the dough from the refrigerator and allow to rest for one hour. Shape and stretch it out to 13 inches and fit into the pan coated with 1 or 2 tablespoons of olive oil. Push the dough out to the edge of the pan, without forming a rim. Cover the panned dough and proof for an additional 2 hours.

After the dough has proofed and just about doubled in volume, dollop some sauce on top, add the cheese being sure to push the cheese out to the edge, top it. Bake on a pizza stone that has been placed on the lowest oven rack position and preheated for about an hour at 500 degrees F. Bake for about 10-11 minutes.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Mendocino on October 17, 2008, 12:09:23 AM
I was home last weekend, and the Hall road Buscemi's is now just as bad as the rest.

Bdogg, at vsome point I will try your recipe.

JT
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on October 17, 2008, 11:02:07 AM
BDoggPizza,

I took the liberty of converting your dough recipe to a baker's percent format, using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html. I got the following:

Flour (100%):
Water (63.1111%):
IDY (0.3951%):
Salt (2.1875%):
Olive Oil (0.88183%):
Sugar (2.08333%):
Total (168.65886%):
255.15 g  |  9 oz | 0.56 lbs
161.03 g  |  5.68 oz | 0.35 lbs
1.01 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.33 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
5.58 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
2.25 g | 0.08 oz | 0 lbs | 0.5 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
5.32 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.33 tsp | 0.44 tbsp
430.33 g | 15.18 oz | 0.95 lbs | TF = N/A

I also calculated a thickness factor based on your round 13" pan (deep-dish PSTK) of 0.1143592 [15.179155/(3.14159 x 6.5 x 6.5) = 0.1143592]. That thickness factor can be used with the expanded dough calculating tool, along with the above baker's percents and the "round" option of the tool, to allow one to determine the quantities of ingredients needed for other pan sizes. For example, for a 14" size, which is one of my favorite sizes, I get the following:

Flour (100%):
Water (63.1111%):
IDY (0.39351%):
Salt (2.1875%):
Olive Oil (0.88183%):
Sugar (2.08333%):
Total (168.65727%):
295.91 g  |  10.44 oz | 0.65 lbs
186.75 g  |  6.59 oz | 0.41 lbs
1.16 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.39 tsp | 0.13 tbsp
6.47 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.16 tsp | 0.39 tbsp
2.61 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.58 tsp | 0.19 tbsp
6.16 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.55 tsp | 0.52 tbsp
499.08 g | 17.6 oz | 1.1 lbs | TF = 0.114359
Note: Pan size = 14"

In my case, I would also use a bowl residue compensation of 1.5% to compensate for minor dough losses during preparation of the dough. That yields the following:

Flour (100%):
Water (63.1111%):
IDY (0.39351%):
Salt (2.1875%):
Olive Oil (0.88183%):
Sugar (2.08333%):
Total (168.65727%):
300.35 g  |  10.59 oz | 0.66 lbs
189.56 g  |  6.69 oz | 0.42 lbs
1.18 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.39 tsp | 0.13 tbsp
6.57 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.18 tsp | 0.39 tbsp
2.65 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.59 tsp | 0.2 tbsp
6.26 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.57 tsp | 0.52 tbsp
506.57 g | 17.87 oz | 1.12 lbs | TF = 0.1160744
Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.1143592; pan size = 14"; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

Of course, using a different pan size and different dough quantity will usually require adjustment of knead times, rise times, bake times, etc.

Peter



Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Lydia on October 17, 2008, 11:19:53 AM
Peter

I can't tell you how much I appreciate that you convert recipes to formulas.


Thank you!
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on October 17, 2008, 11:27:42 AM
Lydia,

My pleasure. I was hoping to find the sizes of pans that Buddy's uses, and to come up with formulations for those sizes, but I could not find anything on the sizes of their pans. They specify their sizes by "squares", either 4 squares or 8 squares.

Peter
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Lydia on October 17, 2008, 11:31:57 AM
Peter

I don't have any of that information right now, but I'll keep an eye out for it.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Lydia on October 17, 2008, 02:20:42 PM

Here's a quote from an old Pizza Today article, I included the info about the Hawaiian pizza in-case anyone's interested. It appears the that large is an 8 inch.

Quote
Hawaiian pizza is given a kick at Buddy's Restaurant and Pizzeria with the continuation of its unique flavor combination in the pizza's sweet and sour sauce.

"People who come to Buddy's already expect something a little out of the ordinary," says Wesley Pikula, vice president of operations for the concept in Michigan. Indeed, Buddy's stands out from the crowd with its square-shaped pizzas. It also boasts pastry-like crust, which is achieved by applying the sauce over the cheese. "That way, the crust is crunchy and doesn't get saturated with sauce," says Pikula.

The sweet and sour sauce is made with crushed pineapple, honey and a smoky barbecue sauce. Canned Dole pineapple rings and diced imported Polish ham decorate the pizza. The 8-inch deep dish sells for $13.99 and runs a 24 percent food cost.

"It's pretty popular. It's one of those specialty pizzas that has a loyal fan base that looks for the `brand' of Hawaiian and orders it every time," says Pikula. Buddy's sells 10 specialty pizzas, and the Hawaiian performs in the top four.

Shelf life of canned pineapple doesn't seem to be an issue. "Pineapple is a pretty hardy ingredient. It holds up really well," says Pikula. As Buddy's is a full-service restaurant, cross-utilization is easy. For instance, the pizza's sweet and sour sauce can be used as a dipping sauce for appetizers or entrees. And, of course, the pineapple rings can be crushed to make the sauce itself.

"One thing that's really important is the handling of the pineapple. It's got a lot of water weight so you have to drain it for a long time. If not, you'll weigh the pizza down and make it watery," says Pikula.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Lydia on October 17, 2008, 03:16:06 PM
Geez! I can't believe I overlooked the info on the home page at Buddies!  ::)

Here it confirms the large is an 8 inch plus other helpful info.

Quote
Our dough is made from scratch daily in each of our kitchens.

We use only premium grade flour in our dough's secret recipe. Carefully double kneading the dough and allowing it to rise for 1 to 1-1/2 hours helps to create Buddy's famous crunchy crust.

We use almost one pound of cheese on our large, 8-square pizzas. This brick cheese is made especially for Buddy's in Wisconsin and is shredded by hand for the perfect melt.

Our produce is received fresh daily and all of our vegetable toppings are hand sliced.

We use Margherita brand pepperoni - a lean, high-quality, more flavorful, course-ground sausage. We place it under the cheese to  prevent charring from the high baking heat.

Our pizza sauce is made with a blend of Stanislaus premium tomato products, herbs and spices (our own little secret for more than 50 years.)

All of Buddy's Black Steel pizza pans have to be specially seasoned. Some have been around for more than 50 years.

PS. Most chains that I know of use either Bull's eye or KC masterpeice BBQ sauces in original flavor for their Hawaiian pizza sauce base, then add their signature ingredients.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on October 17, 2008, 03:54:55 PM
Lydia,

Thank you for the information. I had read the material you quoted some time ago but I don't believe that one can assume that the pan for the large size pizza is 8" square. As noted from the Buddy's menu at http://www.buddyspizza.com/Menu.pdf, their pizzas are sold by "squares", either 4 squares or 8 squares. It would seem to me that if almost a full pound of cheese were to be distributed over a surface area of only 64 square inches, the cheese would be very deep. Also, if the 8-sq. means an 8" x 8" pan, to get the 4-sq., you would need a 5.66" x 5.66" pan (square root of 64/2) to get half the surface area of the 8" square pan. That doesn't seem likely.

Peter
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Lydia on October 17, 2008, 04:28:48 PM
I agree, it wasn't making sense to me either. Maybe it was a typo is the pizza today article and should have read "8 square".

I posted some production pics, the 4 square does look to be 7-8 inches, and the 8 square pan looks to be 10x15, but it's tapered at the bottom so it could be throwing me off. I have a 10x15x2 but it's very hard to come by.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on October 17, 2008, 04:40:06 PM
Lydia,

I saw those photos and also saw this one, which looks like the 8-sq.: http://bp0.blogger.com/__XShj91sMpw/RlJCGZFbuCI/AAAAAAAAAk4/jIeRhr1ub-U/s1600-h/redwings_5.JPG. Don't be alarmed as the photo develops :-D.

Peter
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on October 19, 2008, 02:36:49 PM
Through a Google search, I found an article, in cache form, at
 http://cache.zoominfo.com/CachedPage/?archive_id=0&page_id=180757455&page_url=%2f%2fwww.detroitnews.com%2fshowtime%2frest%2f1996%2fbuddy.htm&page_last_updated=8%2f3%2f2001+11%3a16%3a51+AM&firstName=Buddy&lastName=Pizza, from which I excerpted the following tidbits on Buddy's deep-dish pizzas:

* Pepperoni goes on first, under the cheese.

* Nearly a pound of cheese -- 15 ounces of a secret blend made exclusively for Buddy's by Kraft -- is spread on a 10-by-13-inch, or large, pizza.

* The outer edge of the pie is also made of cheese, not dough crust.

* The dough is fat- and sugar-free. (Some consolation!)

* The sauce goes on over the cheese, not the other way around.

* The pizza is baked for 12 minutes in an infrared conveyor oven.


In another article I found, at http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3190/is_/ai_18466666?tag=artBody;col1, there is a statement that the Buddy's dough recipe was created by an employee, Connie Piccinato, and Gus Guerrera (sic), in 1946. Since IDY was invented much later, the yeast most likely would have been ADY, which was invented shortly after World War II, or fresh yeast. Buddy's says at its website that it uses a "premium" flour. That can mean whatever the writer wants it to mean, but in 1946 it perhaps wasn't a high-gluten flour because that flour was not used in pizza making in 1946. So, I suspect the original recipe called for using either all-purpose flour or bread flour.

Peter

EDIT (12/13/12): Since the above findarticles.com link is no longer available (and not archived), a similar reference to Connie Piccinato's involvement in the development of the original Buddy's pizza can be found at http://diningindetroit.blogspot.com/2011/06/eid-feature-buddys-pizza-detroit.html.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Lydia on October 20, 2008, 11:31:29 AM
Cool finds Peter!

well....hmm...a 10x13 pan  ???

I wouldn't even have a clue how to get a pan that size except as a cookie sheet/jelly roll pan, and those only have a one inch rim at most. I don't even think you can find that size in a rectangle casserole dish. It seems like maybe for forum purposes a formula for a 9x13 would be more practical.

I don't get the comment about the edge being "cheese, not dough". The only thing that makes sense to me it that the person simple meant that there was no naked crust rim and that the cheese went all the way to the edges.

Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on October 20, 2008, 12:49:06 PM
Lydia,

In parallel with my research, on Friday I sent an email to Buddy's on the pan sizes. I got an answer this morning. The two pan sizes are 8" x 10" for the small pan, and 10" x 14" for the large pan. Assuming that the 15 ounces of cheese is correct, that translates to 15/(10 x 14) = 0.1071428 ounces of cheese per square inch. If someone has a different size pan, that number can be used to determine roughly how much cheese to use. For example, I have an 8" x 12" rectangular pan (from pizzatools.com/lloydpans.com). It is sloping sided but the 8" x 12" dimensions would suggest using about 10 ounces of cheese.

If I had to guess, I would say that the comment about the cheese means that the cheese covers all of the dough, right up to the sides of the pan and maybe a bit higher to form a rim which will bake up crispy. Another possibility is that there is a bit of space between the dough and the pan that is filled with cheese. However, the photos you showed do not show any space between the dough and the pans.

Peter
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: BDoggPizza on October 22, 2008, 05:28:16 PM
I'm telling ya!  Make the dough recipe I posted...its the real deal!  Use whatever pizza pan you want, the pizza tastes the same no matter the shape!  I like to just use my chicago deep dish pan.  Use Peter's help with the thickness factor and getting the baker's percentages right for your size pan and follow the recipe.  You will love it.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on October 22, 2008, 06:39:55 PM
B-Dogg,

I don't doubt what you say. It's just that I like to try to figure things out. For example, I have devoted a fair amount of thought to how Buddy's might be doing the double kneading, which is held out at Buddy's website as being an important step to making their dough. I have also been trying to figure out when Buddy's does the proofing of the dough--before putting the dough in the refrigerator, or the next day or maybe after a couple of days. It is also possible that they don't refrigerate the dough at all, although that may not be the way to go with nine Buddy's stores doing a high volume business. The dough management you used is the Tom Lehmann way--make the dough, cold ferment it, warm it up the next day and shape and put it in the pan, proof it, dress it, and bake it. But it is also possible to make the dough, shape it and put it in the pan, cold ferment it, warm it up the next day, dress it, and bake it. That is the way that Pizza Hut used to do it before it went to frozen doughs. The double kneading can be incorporated into either method, although I think it would be easier using the Pizza Hut method. I assume that Buddy's uses a commercial proofer for proofing the panned skins.

If you have any knowledge on the above issues, I'd be happy to receive it.

BTW, how do you make the sauce and what kind of tomatoes have you been using? Buddy's says it uses Stanislaus tomatoes for its sauce.

Peter
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: MWTC on October 23, 2008, 12:01:01 PM
I'm telling ya!  Make the dough recipe I posted...its the real deal!  Use whatever pizza pan you want, the pizza tastes the same no matter the shape!  I like to just use my chicago deep dish pan.  Use Peter's help with the thickness factor and getting the baker's percentages right for your size pan and follow the recipe.  You will love it.

BDoggPizza,

Your recipe is just about what I have been using lately with excellent results. Did you tell us what the temperature of the water was that you use?

Also, what type of flour or flour combinations have you found to be your favorite?
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: BDoggPizza on October 23, 2008, 05:10:32 PM
I use between 100* to 110* water and I use either Gold Medal AP or King Arthur AP.  I haven't really noticed a difference between them in the finished product.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: MWTC on October 24, 2008, 03:15:53 PM
Thanks BDoggPizza,

Would you share your sauce recipe with us?

I made your dough recipe last night. Now I am looking for a new sauce recipe to try.

MWTC  :chef:
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: BDoggPizza on October 26, 2008, 02:45:34 PM
The sauce is one thing i don't really know much about.  I usually use strained 6-1 tomatoes with a little salt & pepper and then sprinkle oregano over the whole pizza.
I don't believe that some of these restaurants go all out on their sauces.  The get high quality tomatoes that you probably only get from restaurant supplies (not your local grocery store).  I'd be interested in a "good" sauce recipe myself.

How'd the dough and pizza turn out???
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: MWTC on October 27, 2008, 10:29:34 AM
How'd the dough and pizza turn out???

I used a mix of flours by King Arthur, [email protected]%, [email protected]%, and KA White Whole [email protected]%. I was very happy with the flavor of the dough. I am working on the thickness factor. I used a 12 oz dough with a small rectangular pan. It needs just a little more dough. I might also raise the hydration a few percents to get a little more airiness. But all in all it was a very good recipe, and would give it a thumbs up.  ;D

I am now turning my attention to the sauce. It is a major deciding factor in the final overall result. I want that, "WOW"  :o  factor. I get the, "thats good" response, but not the WOW. Its only a matter of time. Just don't know how much.  8)

Thanks for the recipe, Thumbs UP.

MWTC  :chef:
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: bomarksf on January 16, 2009, 05:13:02 AM
I am new here.  I was born and raised on Detroit's NE side.  I can remember standing in line at Buscemi's at Gratiot and Toepfer on a Friday night and waiting for the fresh trays to come out of the oven.  Heaven!  Trust me, there is NOTHING like that here in California!  Alas.
There are a couple of tricks to making authentic Sicilian syle pizza.  The crust is almost kind of cake-like experience.  I watched them make it at Buscemi's many times.  Any good pizza dough recipe will probably work.  Many places will even sell you their raw dough by the pound.  One thing I noticed is that the pan is generously greased with fresh bacon drippings.  Then they throw a handful of corn meal over that.  The dough has to be needed, risen and punched-down at least twice before it is rolled out into the pan.  Let it rise in the pan one more time, then cover in your favorite sauce and bake.....just the crust and sauce together.  This pre-baking the crust assures that the finished product will have a nice and fluffy texture before you layer on the heavy toppings.  Take this from the oven and let it cool.  Apply a thick layer of your favorite cheese mixture and cover that completely with the thinnest layer of pepperoni.  You should not be able to see any of the cheese underneath.  I pop that into the oven for a few minutes more, just to melt the cheese.  I remove the pan again and then apply my final layer of toppings; usually more cheese, sausage, mushrooms and green pepper.  Return to the oven and let that bake a few more minutes. 
I know that the back and forth and in and out of the oven is a hassle, but I promise you that the end product will be well worth it! 
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: pjbear05 on January 21, 2009, 07:37:39 PM
Hi gang, new to board, Ex-Detroiter:

Some one mention lactic acid taste?  My rumor mill has two theories on this:
1.  Using butter as opposed to oil in dough
2.  Wisconsin Brick cheese as opposed to Mozzarella-the theory also said brick didn't break down under the high baking heat like mozzarella did.

Don't know about either-may work or be urban legend.  comments?
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: GIBBY on January 22, 2009, 01:34:53 AM
Hello. This is my first post here and I hope everyone has patience with me. Anyhow, here I go. My godfather used to be a Brinks armored car guy who used to pick up at Buddy's. Eventually he was asked by the then owners to become the manager. His wife and my mother became waitress there also. My dad used to take me there when I was just 6 months old and I would eat the capalete ? soup and pizza, so Buddy's has a place in my heart (and stomach). I haven't found a pizza I like better. I've been trying to find all the secret ingredients. I would ask my Godfather but I haven't seen him in many moons. Anyhow, I am now on a quest to get what I need to make them at home. I found the square pans at a restuarant supply store named Roselli's. They are 10X14 and cost $ 6.95 each. Those are considered the large pans or 8 slice square. They also carry the small pans. I did not notice the price. When my mom worked at Buddy's, customers would order two small pizzas because they wanted the corners because the crust was so good- nice and buttery.  They give you instructions when you buy the pans. Also once you use the pans you never wash them, you just wipe them clean. They are steel so they will rust. The Marhgerhita brand pepperoni was also available. Apparently there is only one flavor but two different types. A 25# box sliced or 10# box unsliced. I bought the former @ $75.00. I know that's alot of pizza's. The cheese is a blend that is made for Buddy's exclusively as stated earlier in the thread. I don't beleive that Mozzarella is used because it's usually stringy when you bite into it. Buddy's cheese is not in actuality. I beleive it's actually a Meunster cheese.  I bought a round tube of it that weighed almost 7 lbs-cost-$21. One website states they use Stanislaus brand tomato products. Roselli's had about 6 different blends from that compnay so the lady suggested the heavy type with basil that you mix a can with a half can of water. Or as she put it, 6  cans with 3 cans of water. I'm not making 9 gallons of sauce. I did ask if they were the suppliers to Buddy's but she said no. They use a premium flour but did not state which brand. I use to work for Coca-Cola and delivered to Roselli's a few times and they have about 20 different brands of flour in the warehouse so your guess is as good as mine. One thing I have seen is that when the pizza dough is in the pan, it is shiny . I think they wipe oil of some type on it. maybe olive? The bottom of the pan is also shiny. My godfather went on in later years to own two different restaurants and when the pans came back the the kitchen, he'd wipe out any residue, brushed them with oil and placed another ball of dough back in it.  Anyone reading this that hasn't had Buddy's pizza, the dough seems to be very airy with a lot of air pockets/bubbles. you'd have to see it to understand. I think the dough and the sauce are the keys to the recipe. I told my son that we might have to take a week off and sit in the Buddy's parking lot and wait to see who delivers or rummage though the garbage and look for clues. Investigative reporting at it's best. Or even better, bribe one of the kitchen helpers to tell us what are the ingredients. The hunt is ON!!!
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: jeff v on January 22, 2009, 10:10:17 AM
Welcome GIBBY. I'm looking forward to seeing your progress with your hunt. Please keep us updated.

Best,

Jeff
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: aks801 on January 23, 2009, 11:50:53 AM
Welcome GIBBY. I'm looking forward to seeing your progress with your hunt. Please keep us updated.

Best,

Jeff

Same here, let us know!  My NY style pizzas I'm very satisfied with, but I'm nowhere close to my target with the Sicilian.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on January 25, 2009, 12:31:24 PM
Being a Detroiter (now a Detroit suburbanite) and growing up and living on these pizzas, I read this post with great interest.  Just to confirm and clarify a few points as this one of my favorite topics...
Buddy's was the original creator of the Detroit style under ownership of Gus Guerra.  Gus sold Buddy's and opened the Cloverleaf, and the pizza creation at Buddy's was taken over by Loui Tourtois.  Loui then left Buddy's and went to another small bar in Detroit called Shields, eventually leaving and opening his own pizzeria and bar, Loui's.  All this took place long ago (the timeline begins in the 40's), and today Buddy's and Shield's have expanded to multiple locations, Cloverleaf has a couple of carry out only branches, and only Loui's remains essentially unchanged.  The original Buddy's and Cloverleaf still exist, but the original Shield's is long gone.  These 4 remain the preeminent Detroit style pizza bars that all others are judged by. 
All these pizzas are rectangular and the "crust" is indeed formed by the cheese extending all the way to ends of the pan covering all the dough, cooking and even burning a bit, and flowing down whatever gap is created during the baking process.  Meat under the cheese is the standard with a non chunky, not complex sauce on top, often applied in 2 or 3 wide strips.  The dough is unique and I'm sure I do not yet know the proper terms to describe it, so my best attempt is that it ends up light, many small air bubbles present and crispy where it contacts the pan becoming less so toward the center (especially if really loaded down with toppings), soft and fairly easy to compress, creating a texture change from end to end on each piece.  I'm lost regarding any flavor descriptions (newbie thing).  Sauce's vary with diff levels of sweetness, but all seem quite simple.  The way it's applied, some bites contain no sauce at all, creating flavor changes from end to end of each piece as well.
Those pizza lovers fortunate (or just plain old enough like me) to have eaten the originals have noted changes over the years and expansions and debate which is best today.  IMHO, and those of my pizza loving friends, Loui's has remained truest to his roots with Buddy's and Cloverleaf (original locations only!) pretty close.  The last Shield's I had was a disappointment and haven't been back since, although that particular location is now gone and there are plenty of folks still touting Shield's, so maybe I will try them again.
Yes, Buscemi's, once a great pizza and sub party store chain, has degraded to a four letter word that smells bad.
I seem to recall reading that Loui's uses imported mozza (not whole I would assume) and question the use of Brick, at least the Brick commonly available at the Italian deli's.  My mom always used straight Brick, and at home temps and times, Brick was way more stretchy and tough.  Maybe Wisconsin is diff.   
I really appreciate all the input on this thread and will be putting it use soon attempting a Detroit style and will post the results.
Thanks for listening,
Hog

Edit:  Found this photo.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: steverino on January 26, 2009, 05:13:22 PM
Gibby and Pizzahog -

I'm reposting something I posted on the first page.  I am a HUGE fan Of the Detroit style:

I'm personally a big fan of Loui's pizza.  It's on Dequindre, just north of nine mile.  I believe there is some intermingling history between Shield's, Buddy's and Loui's.  Like the pizzamakers worked together at some point, or their families, or something, and at some point there were separations.  All different pizzas, but very much "Detroit Style" in the similarity of the crusts.  I've been trying to replicate the Loui's crust for years.  I'm close, it's good, but not quite there.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: GIBBY on January 27, 2009, 05:35:07 PM
Gibby and Pizzahog -

I'm reposting something I posted on the first page.  I am a HUGE fan Of the Detroit style:

I'm personally a big fan of Loui's pizza.  It's on Dequindre, just north of nine mile.  I believe there is some intermingling history between Shield's, Buddy's and Loui's.  Like the pizzamakers worked together at some point, or their families, or something, and at some point there were separations.  All different pizzas, but very much "Detroit Style" in the similarity of the crusts.  I've been trying to replicate the Loui's crust for years.  I'm close, it's good, but not quite there.

Yes, there is something special about the Detroit square deep dish pizza. As mentioned in my first post, I've been eating Buddy's since the ripe old age of 6 months. I have also eaten all the variations-Loui's, Sheilds and Cloverleaf. They all have their unique flavor- which, BTW, might be an addition or subtraction of just one element. But they all have that crispy crust that we love so much. as far as the Dough recipe goes there might be something simple we are missing while trying to recreate it.
Let's see?


Flour

Water

Yeast

Eggs

Sugar

Salt

Baking powder

Baking soda

Beer instead of water??? extra carbonation and yeast?

Olive oil or Veg oil?

Butter?

Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: GIBBY on January 27, 2009, 05:48:01 PM
Being a Detroiter (now a Detroit suburbanite) and growing up and living on these pizzas, I read this post with great interest.  Just to confirm and clarify a few points as this one of my favorite topics...
Buddy's was the original creator of the Detroit style under ownership of Gus Guerra.  Gus sold Buddy's and opened the Cloverleaf, and the pizza creation at Buddy's was taken over by Loui Tourtois.  Loui then left Buddy's and went to another small bar in Detroit called Shields, eventually leaving and opening his own pizzeria and bar, Loui's.  All this took place long ago (the timeline begins in the 40's), and today Buddy's and Shield's have expanded to multiple locations, Cloverleaf has a couple of carry out only branches, and only Loui's remains essentially unchanged.  The original Buddy's and Cloverleaf still exist, but the original Shield's is long gone.  These 4 remain the preeminent Detroit style pizza bars that all others are judged by. 
All these pizzas are rectangular and the "crust" is indeed formed by the cheese extending all the way to ends of the pan covering all the dough, cooking and even burning a bit, and flowing down whatever gap is created during the baking process.  Meat under the cheese is the standard with a non chunky, not complex sauce on top, often applied in 2 or 3 wide strips.  The dough is unique and I'm sure I do not yet know the proper terms to describe it, so my best attempt is that it ends up light, many small air bubbles present and crispy where it contacts the pan becoming less so toward the center (especially if really loaded down with toppings), soft and fairly easy to compress, creating a texture change from end to end on each piece.  I'm lost regarding any flavor descriptions (newbie thing).  Sauce's vary with diff levels of sweetness, but all seem quite simple.  The way it's applied, some bites contain no sauce at all, creating flavor changes from end to end of each piece as well.
Those pizza lovers fortunate (or just plain old enough like me) to have eaten the originals have noted changes over the years and expansions and debate which is best today.  IMHO, and those of my pizza loving friends, Loui's has remained truest to his roots with Buddy's and Cloverleaf (original locations only!) pretty close.  The last Shield's I had was a disappointment and haven't been back since, although that particular location is now gone and there are plenty of folks still touting Shield's, so maybe I will try them again.
Yes, Buscemi's, once a great pizza and sub party store chain, has degraded to a four letter word that smells bad.
I seem to recall reading that Loui's uses imported mozza (not whole I would assume) and question the use of Brick, at least the Brick commonly available at the Italian deli's.  My mom always used straight Brick, and at home temps and times, Brick was way more stretchy and tough.  Maybe Wisconsin is diff.   
I really appreciate all the input on this thread and will be putting it use soon attempting a Detroit style and will post the results.
Thanks for listening,
Hog

Edit:  Found this photo.

Pizzahog, it nice to see fellow Detroitburbanites tell the tales. For the ones left wondering, The original Sheild's was mere city blocks east of Buddy's on McNichols ( 6 mile rd). Boy talk about a rivalry! I always got chased off the bocci courts. Those old Itlaians took their game seriously. I knew where the Dum Dum sucker box was though, so I didn't get too discouraged when they yelled at me ;D. I bought and used Tuma brand Muenster. Non-greasy but needs a little more flavor. Might try and find some Wis brick.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on January 27, 2009, 06:14:40 PM
Hey Gibby
Yes, it is great to have quite a few Detroiter's (past and present) here tellin' the stories and trying to figure out that pizza.  My 85 yr old dad always talks about Loui's, but hasn't been there for many years although he eats pizza every week.  So I took him to his favorite Loui's a couple of weeks ago and dang that was good pie.  Not quite as crisp this time around but it is still the real deal.
My first dough ball just went into the fridge!  I plan to give it a day or two and have at it with my new Roselli's pan, and thanks again for that tip.  I'll keep my fingers crossed and post the details then.
By the way, Roselli's has Wisconsin Brick in the last cooler in the row on your left.  The lady there told me they will sell those types of cheese in half brick chunks so you don't have to buy the whole thing to experiment.
Good Luck!
Hog
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on January 28, 2009, 11:01:32 PM
Version 1.00 completed!
First pizza since joining the forum and thanks again to everyone here for the fantastic info and advice.  First the details and results, then the inevitable questions.
Let me introduce the principals:

Dough (courtesy of sourdoughgirl in her tommys thread)

Flour (100%):    317.73 g  |  11.21 oz | 0.7 lbs               2.5 cups KAAP
Water (63%):    200.17 g  |  7.06 oz | 0.44 lbs               41 tsp = 3/4c+1Tblsp+2tsp
IDY (.33%):    1.05 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.35 tsp | 0.12 tbsp          1/4 tsp
Salt (1.5%):    4.77 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.99 tsp | 0.33 tbsp       1 tsp
Total (164.83%):   523.71 g | 18.47 oz | 1.15 lbs | TF = 0.13195
Bowl Residue 1.5%

House is not balmy this time of year so heated water to 105 degrees, dissolved salt, added flour and yeast to the Kitchen Aid, mixed/kneaded for 5 min on speed 1, (dough was at 95 at this point) 20 min rest, then in an oiled tuppy and in the fridge.  19 hours later, added 2 Tblsp canola to a 10 x 14 black steel pan, spread the dough cold, covered with plastic wrap for a 5 hour rise.

Sauce:

Crushed 6 in 1's with skins, added 1/2 tsp oregano, 1/4 tsp garlic powder, 1/8 tsp onion powder, 1/4 tsp salt and 1/8 tsp pepper.

Cheese:
15 oz total, half Wisconsin Brick, half provolone, applied in thirds as 1/3 straight Brick, 1/3 straight prov, 1/3 as a 50/50 blend.

Pepperoni:
1/2 stick of Margherita, defatted a bit.

The battle:

Peperoni down first, cheese next, 2 cups sauce on top applied in 2 strips.  Baked on 2nd to bottom rack in 490 degree pre heated oven for 13 min.

The winner:  Me!  This was a dang good pizza, actually the best I have ever made and it is far from my first.  Much less effort and time expended than ever before too.  Lots of tweaking indicated and still a long way to go to approach the Detroit target though.   

Tweaks I can handle:  A bit thinner dough, a bit less sauce and experiment with herb/spcies, a bit more peperoni, and continue trying cheese types as the Brick seemed to have little flavor and the prov is better, but not Detroitish.  I will also try a longer cold ferment, but I just couldn't wait any longer to get this first pie in the oven.

Tweaks I would appreciate any input on:  Getting the bottom more fried/crisp before the cheese on top browns.  Also, he dough was quite good and tender, just not the texture or crumb I am targeting.  The more I view and read here, the more I am leaning towards greater hydration.  Detroit pizzas completely contact the pan on the bottom-no air voids or wrinkles like from pressing the dough into the pan.  Makes me think the dough may be more of a pour than a press.  Also, the surface texture of the dough on the bottom has a unique pattern of smallish air bubbles that I have not seen in any other pics yet and the interior has a focaccia element to it.

So many variables and so many tasty experiments to devour.  This is gonna be fun!

Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on February 02, 2009, 09:04:11 PM
Version 1.01 attempted and improvement noted.  Can't say it is really any closer overall to a Detroit style than the last one, but definitely a better put together, balanced and tastier pizza.  The baked cheese on the crust edge thing is going in the right direction, but the dough texture and crumb continues to baffle.  Looks like I will spending some time at the local Cloverleaf carry out, covertly pumping the pizza cooks for info disguised as idle chit chat and maybe even some dumpster diving.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Jake77 on February 04, 2009, 06:09:29 PM
I'm from the Flint area and I gotta admit I never knew there was such a thing as "Detroit Style" pizza, but I have eaten many copies of the very one you are trying to make up in that part of the state. I always thought it was called deep dish or pan pizza. The local place I worked in didn't make a Buddy's copy or I'd shoot the recipe out there for you. Does Buddy's still give free Pizza to Ticket holders if the Pistons score over 100 and win? I know that was like 20 years ago but some things stay the same. I don't live in Michigan anymore.

Also if you get it right or close enough or aw heck I gotta try this ;D, I will definitely serve it for my Super Bowl party next year when the Lions are in it.... Okay back to reality, in the spring when the Wings win the cup again.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: GIBBY on February 04, 2009, 06:43:11 PM
Geez Pizzahog, now you have me thinking. On faith alone I bought the 25# box of Margherita pepperoni but it was thin sliced-AAARRRGGGHHH!!!! I'm wondering if Buddy's actually takes the time to slice the sticks or do they have it special ordered? I know that the slices on their pizza is much thicker than what I bought. The Tuma brand Muenster cheese I used is very close but might need a little of somehthing else, maybe some Mozzarella. Someone on this site said Kraft makes the cheese blend just for Buddy"s. Wouldn't that be a kick in the butt that we couldn't get it? The pics of your pie seem a little on the thick side-maybe a little less dough and shove the dough up the sides and into the corners before putting on the stuff.. Looks tasty though.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on February 04, 2009, 07:22:13 PM
LOL Lions win the superbowl... I didn't know just the best square pizza in town had a name either till recently. 
Definitely agree the pep is cut thick Gibby.  I'll have to give the tuma a try.  Lot's of work to do with the dough but have some ideas...
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: pjbear05 on February 04, 2009, 08:15:23 PM
OK I gave it a shot for the Superbowl aand here's my output

Dough:  Water, ADY, sugar, proof for 10 min..  KABF (Albertson's sell 5 lb bags) & salt, first mix.  Add 50/50 mixture Olive oil/butter, 2nd mix.  Turn out and 1st knead 10 min. form ball, into bowl, cover, warm place for  20 min., then in the 'frige overnight. Next day, knead again, back in the bowl, cover leave out at room temp.'til double.

  Grease pan with butter-period.  Black steel, or black enameled steel pans rule here for sure. 

Dough, cheese, topping, sauce, oven, scarf down.

Cheese: 2/3rd's Pollyo Whole Milk Mozz,1/3 Boar's Head Muenster-only OK-I need to find some Wisconsin Brick in South FL.

Sauce-Oh crap, in a jar started with an S, bought at a reatiler in Italian Foods-thicker than Cento,  thinner the Del Fratelli, but it was good-not too sweet and spiced just a touch

Topps. 1/2 pepp & virginia ham, 1/2 Hawaiian for the wife.

Dough a litlle heavy- outside of that and the cheese, my half still disappeared. Karen at 3/4's and saved the last for lunch next day.

Oh well, back to reading dough threads and cheese hunting.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: GIBBY on February 04, 2009, 08:28:43 PM
O.K. Can everyone hear me beating my skull against the wall??? I should have read more into the Buddy's website description. Margherita brand pepperoni has a fine ground and a COARSE GROUND Duh!! I went to the Armour Ekrich website and will attempt to get where-to-buy info. But I still have a little less than 25# of thin fine ground left to use. Not that it's bad or anything but I'm seriously trying to recreate Buddy's flavor and the different grind may have something to do with that. The pepperoini is almost three times thicker than what I have now and about 1/4 th smaller in diameter. The hunt continues.....
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on February 06, 2009, 06:44:09 PM
Easy there Gibby, no pizza related head injuries!  I didn't realize Margherita had 2 types and now I'm wondering what I used (all gone now, I'll never know), bit I will also look for the coarse ground.  I just bought the sticks so I could slice it thick, which I did, but it still didn't seem to have the level of flavor I expected.  If I find the coarse I will post where.
Hey, you can always put the thin sliced you have on top of the cheese.  I know it's not what you're going for, but thin peperoni all curled up and even a little burnt on the edge is mighty tasty.
Someone told me about an excellent pizza they had in Romeo from a place called Tomato Basil.  Sounds like you might be from around that neck of the woods.  Ever heard of it?
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: GIBBY on February 07, 2009, 11:15:25 PM
No, I haven't heard of it though I could probably take a ride by on my way home from work. It's most likely downtown/ main drag.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on February 10, 2009, 08:20:06 PM
Version 1.03.  Finally got the crunch, TF, and the best texture so far.  Experimentation continues...
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: steverino on February 11, 2009, 02:19:31 PM
PizzaHog-

Just a couple of tips from memory - I remember putting a couple of tablespoons of butter in the bottom of the pan, then putting the pan in the oven to melt the butter.  Than, I lay the dough into the pan, and spread it out.  In the process, some of the butter will leak up over the top.  I recall letting the dough rise for maybe half an hour, until it puffed up some.  Now, I put it into the hot oven on a pizza stone, for about 5 or 6 minutes.  The dough pulls away from the sides of the pan to form maybe an 1/8" - 1/4" gap. NOW, put on your meat, shrooms, etc. then GLOM on the cheese. Make sure the cheese goes all the way to the edges, and build it up a little around the rim, so as it melts, it fills in the gap.  The sauce technique I've had good luck with is to take a can of diced tomato, drain it well, put it in a blender, add some salt, pepper, oregano and garlic powder.  Whir it a bit, and taste it!  Adjust seasonings as necessary for your palate.  I like the sauce a little chunky, not pureed.  Lay the sauce generously on top, return to the oven.  If I recall correctly, I go about another 10 minutes on the stone, then move it up to the rack to finish.

I'm sorry if this is less than a tutorial, but I really go a lot by feel and taste.  I've achieved damn near a Loui's pizza using this method.  Perhaps this weekend I will go all out and document every step along the way, from dough to slice.  My wife would have to be involved in the process, which would probably make her nuts, which would, in turn, entertain me.

Oh wait - it's Valentine's Day Saturday. 

Hmmmmm.... could be a tough sell.  We'll see.

Love, peace, and pepperoni grease.

Steve

ETA:  It looks like you're kicking some serious ass already, however..
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on February 11, 2009, 02:31:09 PM
Hey Steverino
Thanks for the tips, and I must be following in your footsteps since a lot of what you did is fairly close to what I did on the last attempt.
Now, if you could find it in your (and your lovely wife's) schedule and pizza laden heart to record all the details, well I for one would be eternally grateful.
I am still trying diff cheeses, tweaking the sauce, and altering the dough recipe, and the last pie was way better than the first, although not close enough to Loui's to post a recipe yet.  But with your tips and help, maybe soon...
Save a corner for me,
Hog
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: steverino on February 13, 2009, 04:33:03 PM
Hey Hog-

Here's a link to a pretty cool older Detroit style thread here:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1535.0.html

This weekend looks like a bust - my wife and her girlfriend are taking my buddy and I out for a movie and Surf n' Turf Saturday night.  As much as I love my pizza, I can't bitch about that!

Peace,

Steve
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on February 13, 2009, 06:57:28 PM
Steverino
No problemo and you guys have yourself a great time and enjoy your cow and bugs.  Had me some good cow a couple of days ago myself.  But last night it was another pizza and I think I am finally on to something.  Not sure what though.  It does seem to have some of the qualities of a Loui's, except on steroids.  I actually really liked it.  Crisp and chewy, then airy and tender, then a bit soft and mushy on the very top.  Didn't absorb all the pan lube like the prev doughs, so was a bit greasy.  I'll be tweaking on this version and see what happens.
Later
Hog
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: jeff v on February 13, 2009, 08:44:07 PM
pizzahog,

I really like how open that crumb is in your latest attempt-it looks great. Care to share your latest recipe?

Thanks,

Jeff
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on February 14, 2009, 12:37:52 PM
Sure Jeff, as a newbie I am honored you asked.  This turned into one of those rush jobs and I do not yet have a scale.  In each successive experiment I have been raising the hydration, and if I understand the math correctly, this was something around 90%.

3/4 Cup + 1 Tblsp + 2 tsp water (95 degrees)
1 3/4 Cups flour (KAAP Organic, measured textbook method)
1/2 tsp IDY (Fleischmans)
1 tsp salt

Dissolved salt & water in KA bowl with dough hook attached, added IDY and all but 1/4 cup flour, mixed on stir speed 2 min to combine, covered for 20 minute rest, added last 1/4 C flour, wet kneaded on 1st speed for 8 minutes.  "poured" into greased 10 x 14 in black steel pan and spread, covered, proofed for 2 1/2 hours (prob around 80 degrees), prebaked on lowest rack of 500 degree preheated oven for 9 minutes, topped, then back on same rack for 7 minutes.  As soon as it stopped bubbling and sizzling, removed to cooling rack.
At the rest period I noticed this dough, if you can call it that, resembled the minnow bait we made as kids it was so wet, which was my second thought.  My first thought was "this ain't gonna work".  I was afraid this batter would just displace and push all the oil out from underneath once it hit the pan and I was expecting failure, so what the heck - I put the pan in the fridge for 5 minutes, then spread Smart Balance margarine all over the bottom.  I hoped was this would keep it under the dough to help achieve a fry, which worked, but it also added a flavor component and left the bottom greasy.  This was the only thing I did not measure, but it was 2 Tablespoons or so, maybe more.  I forgot to take the temp of the finished dough, but all previous experiments were 10 degrees less than the starting water temp.
Spreading this structural adhesive in the pan was a challenge at first.  With oiled and moistened finger tips I found just nudging it ever so lightly about an eighth-quarter inch at a time did the trick and then only took a few minutes.  No spring back with this goop.   
We have one tiny room in the house that gets so warm we keep the heat register closed.  I opened it up, bumped the thermostat up 2 degrees and put the pan in to proof and rush, and I would say this room is then quickly a good 10 degrees above the rest of the house.  Surprise!  It actually did rise and at 2 1/2 hours, some largish alveoles were visible at the surface although not actually bubbled up.
The texture of this test was the winner for me, not bready in any way which was one goal, and a nice mix of crisp, chewy, tender and moist.  The flavor of the dough remains a question mark as it was marred by all that margarine and I completely covered it with Casalinga, so couldn't really find any unflavored dough to taste even though I deconstructed a few slices.  But I would say it was pleasant and am encouraged enough to use this basic recipe to continue experimentation under unrushed and more controlled conditions now that I know it works and was my best pizza to date.
We shall see...
Hog

 

 
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: steverino on February 14, 2009, 02:03:40 PM
Hog -
Looks freakin' delicioso!  Nice crumb, and looks like nice crunch too.  Getting ready to head out for movie and "cow and bug"....

Best,

steve
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: jeff v on February 14, 2009, 04:13:31 PM
Sure Jeff, as a newbie I am honored you asked.  This turned into one of those rush jobs and I do not yet have a scale.  In each successive experiment I have been raising the hydration, and if I understand the math correctly, this was something around 90%.

3/4 Cup + 1 Tblsp + 2 tsp water (95 degrees)
1 3/4 Cups flour (KAAP Organic, measured textbook method)
1/2 tsp IDY (Fleischmans)
1 tsp salt

Dissolved salt & water in KA bowl with dough hook attached, added IDY and all but 1/4 cup flour, mixed on stir speed 2 min to combine, covered for 20 minute rest, added last 1/4 C flour, wet kneaded on 1st speed for 8 minutes.  "poured" into greased 10 x 14 in black steel pan and spread, covered, proofed for 2 1/2 hours (prob around 80 degrees), prebaked on lowest rack of 500 degree preheated oven for 9 minutes, topped, then back on same rack for 7 minutes.  As soon as it stopped bubbling and sizzling, removed to cooling rack.
At the rest period I noticed this dough, if you can call it that, resembled the minnow bait we made as kids it was so wet, which was my second thought.  My first thought was "this ain't gonna work".  I was afraid this batter would just displace and push all the oil out from underneath once it hit the pan and I was expecting failure, so what the heck - I put the pan in the fridge for 5 minutes, then spread Smart Balance margarine all over the bottom.  I hoped was this would keep it under the dough to help achieve a fry, which worked, but it also added a flavor component and left the bottom greasy.  This was the only thing I did not measure, but it was 2 Tablespoons or so, maybe more.  I forgot to take the temp of the finished dough, but all previous experiments were 10 degrees less than the starting water temp.
Spreading this structural adhesive in the pan was a challenge at first.  With oiled and moistened finger tips I found just nudging it ever so lightly about an eighth-quarter inch at a time did the trick and then only took a few minutes.  No spring back with this goop.   
We have one tiny room in the house that gets so warm we keep the heat register closed.  I opened it up, bumped the thermostat up 2 degrees and put the pan in to proof and rush, and I would say this room is then quickly a good 10 degrees above the rest of the house.  Surprise!  It actually did rise and at 2 1/2 hours, some largish alveoles were visible at the surface although not actually bubbled up.
The texture of this test was the winner for me, not bready in any way which was one goal, and a nice mix of crisp, chewy, tender and moist.  The flavor of the dough remains a question mark as it was marred by all that margarine and I completely covered it with Casalinga, so couldn't really find any unflavored dough to taste even though I deconstructed a few slices.  But I would say it was pleasant and am encouraged enough to use this basic recipe to continue experimentation under unrushed and more controlled conditions now that I know it works and was my best pizza to date.
We shall see...
Hog

 

 

Thanks for the insight, and I am looking forward to your next experiments. This last pizza looked like a big leap forward from your previous attempts-should get fun now huh?! Regadring flavor-I have never had either of the pizzas metioned in this thread, so I can't be of help there. However there are some pretty simple things you can do to get a more flavorful crusts if that's the way you want to go.

The texture you mentioned is key for me too, I don't like when a Sicillian has a dense bready texture. I may steal some of this recipe (particularly the prebake) and give it a go if you don't mind. If I do I'll post my observations.

Jeff

P.S. Throw that Smart Balance away-it's almost plastic!   >:D  :-D

Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on February 15, 2009, 12:20:36 PM
Yea Jeff, the Smart Balance inspiration was not a good one.  I didn't even know we had it the fridge which should have been an indicator of it's age.  But as it is 36% plastic by weight (not including the container) I doubt age was the factor, but it's lack of past use should have been a clue.  By all means please have your way with any part of this experiment!  I selfishly look forward to any experiences you might share to aid in my stumbling attempts.
Steverino, hope your dinner was killer and once the protein and iodine aftereffects wear off I'm hoping the pizza crave quickly takes over.  And thanks to both for the kind words and help.
But now I have a dilemma.  Reading about but never having eaten a NY or Neapolitan (I'm geographically challenged), yesterday's lunch was at the closest of the few places in the area that claim this style.  I would guess that in comparison to those created by the many accomplished pizzaiolos here like you two and the known best in class pizzarias the pies we had would rate 5 of 10.  But we were both blown away!  Whoda thunk such a thin and sparsely topped pizza could be so uniquely tasty and immediately addictive.  And I thought I knew a thing or two about pizza...fuggitaboutit!!!!
So I will continue with this experiment but have already commandeered a never used but decent quality pizza stone from my parent's to go with my never used department store type stone I received as a gift years ago and have been scouring the NY thread.  I can only imagine what a true NY or Nea pie is like but I plan to attempt to find out.
The fun continues...
Hog
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: GIBBY on February 16, 2009, 05:31:05 PM
Steverino
No problemo and you guys have yourself a great time and enjoy your cow and bugs.  Had me some good cow a couple of days ago myself.  But last night it was another pizza and I think I am finally on to something.  Not sure what though.  It does seem to have some of the qualities of a Loui's, except on steroids.  I actually really liked it.  Crisp and chewy, then airy and tender, then a bit soft and mushy on the very top.  Didn't absorb all the pan lube like the prev doughs, so was a bit greasy.  I'll be tweaking on this version and see what happens.
Later
Hog
We did pies yesterday afternoon and came out pretty well. Pepperoni, pepp with ham, pepp with mushrooms,green peppers,onions,tomatoes. Six pies total. The dough still needs some tweaking. It might need more yeast or less flour. My mom suggested a teaspoon of sugar to help the yeast along. Getting closer every time. I might need to try the butter in the bottom instead of veg oil or olive. I was thinking I might heat the butter and take out most of the fat-kinda like drawn butter for lobster and see what happens. Might have the buttery taste. Buddy's is a little greasy but that's part of the charm.  My wife and I probably need to work on the rising and proofing to get those larger air bubbles in the dough. I'm currently looking at this shredder  called the King Kutter to do the cheese. Costs about $120 or so depending where you buy it. I can see that this home pizza thing will get big in the summer-probably close to 15 folks over and I'm lazy so the shredder will fit the bill. And maybe a new mixer ;D :chef:
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on February 17, 2009, 07:05:05 PM
Your pizzas sound great Gibby.  But why spend $120 on a cheese shredder when you have all those guests over for your homemade pizza?  Give each one a turn for a few minutes with a hand shredder and you can still be lazy, save some $$, and could be sorta fun.  Make 'em work for their pizza, I say!
As far as the dough goes, I'm thinking high hydration is part of the formula after that last pie.  I'm starting to like my sauce but not happy with any cheeses tried yet.  We'll see what the next one comes out like.   :'( :pizza: :o
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: GIBBY on February 17, 2009, 07:55:50 PM
Gives me an excuse to spend some money, and besides, my relatives are slow and I'm really impatient. Still need a scale too!! ;)
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on February 21, 2009, 10:43:03 AM
Steverino, Gibby, MWTC and anyone else in the Detroit area, check out this post.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8012.0.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8012.0.html)

Might be worth a looksee.
Hog
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: jeff v on February 22, 2009, 08:11:15 PM
PizzaHog,

Glad to see you trying the NY/Neo pizza.

I made the recipe you shared, and it was very good. A "conversation" with my wife about the volume of pics on our camera led to her deleteing everything including the photo evidence of this experiment.  :'(  I did do a couple of things different that I wanted to share...

I used cold flour, ice cold water and after the time in the mixer I stuck the dough in the fridge for 48 hours. This really helped with the flavor of the crust. Also since I was all out of Smart Balance  :P I used butter to grease the pan which was good, but it toasted more than fried-guess I didn't use enough.

Anywho thanks for sharing the recipe, and I will be making it or something like it again.

Best,

Jeff

Edited to fix typo.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on February 23, 2009, 12:02:28 PM
Quote
I made the recipe you shared, and it was very good. A "coversation" with my wife about the volume of pics on our camera led to her deleteing everything including the photo evidence of this experiment.  I did do a couple of things different that I wanted to share...

I used cold flour, ice cold water and after the time in the mixer I stuck the dough in the fridge for 48 hours. This really helped with the flavor of the crust. Also since I was all out of Smart Balance   I used butter to grease the pan which was good, but it toasted more than fried-guess I didn't use enough.

Cool Jeff! (pun intended)
Using cold flour and water is a new one for me, but I will definitely try this now on the next test along with the 48 hours in the fridge.  I hope you don't mind a few questions:  Did it rise while in the fridge or after removal?  If after, approx how long between removal and baking?  Lastly, what does the use of cold ingredients cause to happen? 
I will prob try the butter also now that I know it did not burn, maybe 1-2 tablespoons.
Thanks for the help and improvements, and if you need some Smart Balance just let me know, I have half a tub I would be happy to send :-[.
Hog
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: jeff v on February 23, 2009, 02:22:01 PM
Hog,

Before pizza I made quite a bit of bread, and the book where I first learned about this technique is "The Bread Bakers Apprentice" by Peter Reinhart where he explains and gives a recipe for Pain à l’ancienne. He goes into great detail regarding the science of it, but basically this- The ice cold ingredients and then right into the fridge delay fermentation, and allow enzymatic activity to turn more of the starch in the flour to sugar making a more complex, better tasting bread or pizza. To my knowledge other than using a starter it gives the most flavor to your dough. It's a interesting read.

The dough will rise in the fridge some, but not much. I leave it out long enough to take the chill off, and let it ferment some 2-4 hours depeding on the temp of your kitchen.

Hope this helps,

Jeff


Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on February 23, 2009, 07:04:15 PM
Jeff
What an excellent technique and one I was looking for and sorely need.  Texture has been improving but flavor has always been lacking.  So I look forward to giving this a try.
Thanks again for your help,
Hog
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on February 28, 2009, 11:18:15 PM
Thanks to Jeff V the best pizza yet and IMHO solidly in the very good category.  Same formulation but used Jeff's cold method and fermentation and 2 tblspns butter in pan, kneaded 5 vs 8 minutes and prebaked 8 vs 9 minutes.  Browner, crunchier, tenderer, better all around.  Still has a wide open crumb but is more consistent.  By comparison the previous version seemed "raw" and this one has some really nice flavor.  Finally!  I'll be using this cold method again for sure. 
The butter is good but I will use something more neutral in flavor, and less of it, next time. 
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: jeff v on March 01, 2009, 11:26:06 AM
Hog,

Wow! That looks fantastic!

Glad to hear that you liked that method. Unfortunately I have some crazy travel right now for work now otherwise I'd be mixing up a batch of that now. Out of curiosity what kind of pan are you using?

Thanks,

Jeff
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: GIBBY on March 01, 2009, 11:45:14 AM
  I brought two leftover pies to work last Monday ( made on Sunday) and let my coworkers know if they want some have some. My coordinator told me to go talk to a guy in another department because he had a bakery/pizzeria at one time. He tried it and said he really liked it but I told him it isn't quite where I want it. I told him I was trying to replicate Buddy's. So I quizzed him on a few things and here's a few tidbits. 1. Don't mix the dough too long. As soon as it starts coming off the sides of the mixing bowl-STOP! The longer you mix it, the denser the dough and resulting crust will be. Then immediately put the dough portions into the oiled or greased pans and spread the dough then let it rise in the pan. When ready, punch the dough down add your stuff then bake. 2. Make sure your pans are seasoned. He says to use Crisco and bake 'em at 500 for about 15 minutes or so. I'm doing mine as I type this on the gas grill outside so I don't stink up the house. 3. Make sure you use top quality ingredients especially the pepperoni which he says will impart a good flavor into the pie.  
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on March 01, 2009, 01:41:32 PM
Jeff
Your tip on the whole cold thing just rocks!  This dough was superior to the last version in every way and I will be trying your method on the next NY attempt too.  Thanks again!  In fact, this last version with the butter is good enough on it's own that I plan to try it with garlic or compound butter / no or little toppings sorta like crazy bread or focaccia.  I found the butter flavor a bit over the top for my taste on pizza, plus a bit salty, so I will try unsalted on the crazy bread.   
The pan I use is 10 x 14 inch steel with some thin black paint like coating, some of which came off the first time I used it (my fault).  Now that it has some seasoning that has stopped.  They are 6.95 at the local rest supply (they have other sizes also) and came with instructions from Hillside Metal Wear Co, but I could not find these pans on their website, only round ones, so no real clue who makes them.  If you can't locate or need one, send me a PM and it would be my pleasure to arrange to get one or more to you.  I do a lot of Fedex ground shipping, have a discounted account, and would guess shipping to be in the under $10 range within the US if you are interested. 
Gibby, sounds like your pizzas are a hit.  I have never used Crisco for anything but that may be the unflavored pan lube to try next.  I am hoping you will post your recipes someday so I can give it a whirl!  I am still trying to find peperoni like my Mom used back in the day.  As I recall, it was darker, a bit more shriveled, and harder to cut than the Margherita brand, which is all I have been able to find locally (not counting Eckrich or Armor grocery types).  That stuff really had some zing to it.  There is a tiny Italian market near the folk's house that I will try next.  If all else fails it's off to the Eastern Market in Detroit.  I have not been down there in decades but is all I can think of.
Next experiments will be lowering hydration a bit at a time to see where that takes it.  This dough does have some Buddy's qualities so I am hoping I am on the right track.  I also noticed the crispness on the bottom lessens some even as the pizza cools on a rack and I cannot imagine any commercial operation working with a dough this wet or difficult.  I think I have to go pick up a Buddy's or Loui's soon as well since I have eaten so many of my own tests I am starting to lose touch with what I was after when I started!  Then again this last pie was so good that if I never clone the original I won't lose any sleep over it, but may gain some waist size instead.  Oh well, a small price to pay...
Hog
 
   
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: GIBBY on March 08, 2009, 10:20:08 AM
PizzaHog, Yesterday my son and I hit downtown Detroit for a few attractions-namely the Autorama and the StarTrek exhibit at the science center. On the way home we stopped and had pizza at Buddy's in Warren. This is part of the investigative thing I was talking about in one of my first posts. I asked the waitress what type of Margherita brand peeperoni they used after I gingerly told her we are trying to make it at home. I gave her the lame excuse that we live far away and frequent trips to their location was not possible. First she said it was just a pork-beef blend, according to her boss. Then I told her that the pepperoni they use is not the same that I had bought. So she went and wrote down the number off the box.
 
Margherita brand

Coarse Grind Pepperoni

# 38616-31329

 I haven't gone to Rosseli's in a couple weeks so I check on this further when I do. The girl at Rosseli's said it was in stick form but the girl at Buddy's said it comes in bags. I can't imagine they would have to slice all that pepperoni by hand.On my next to Buddy's trip I'll either work on the blend of cheese or the flour/dough mixture. We had a large pep/ham pizza, small antipasto and 2 pops and the bill was 28.00 not including tip which was very generous considering the pest I made of myself.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on March 08, 2009, 11:42:13 AM
Hey Gibby
Hopefully you are on to something since my peperoni searches have all ended in vain.  Every single Italian market I have visited has been a bust, they all carry Margherita fine grind and little else.
When you next go to Roselli's consider a stop at S Serra Cheese which is only a mile down Groesbeck.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8012.msg68928.html#msg68928 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8012.msg68928.html#msg68928)
Their whole milk Mozzarella is way tastier than any other dry mozz I have tried and their prices are wholesale and within a dime of Roselli's.  Plus they sell by the one pound package so if you try something and don't like it you won't end up with 9 pounds left over. 
I also tried Tomato & Basil Pizzeria and was pleasantly surprised.  They make NY style round and it's good!  They have an unadvertised special on a 14' one topping for 6.99 and their calzones are over the top.  5.99 for the menu choices and 6.49 for build your own with sauce, cheese, plus 4 toppings of your choice.  I went crazy and tried meatball, sausage, onion and ricotta and this thing was so huge and heavy all I could do was shake my head and laugh.  They are on the west side of Van Dyke just south of 31 mile in a little strip mall next to Subway should you ever find yourself in the mood.  Carry out only or sit at the one little table.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: pjbear05 on March 10, 2009, 11:09:09 PM
Greetings again from FL.  The second attempt with the black enamel coated steel broiler pan was almost perfect:

Switched from butter/olive oil mix in the dough to oil only.  Good consistency, but lost the flavor element.
20 minute warm followed by 10 hour cold rise in bowl, after mixing and kneading in the Cuisinart.

Oil/tub margarine for greasing the pan?  Hell no, butter on a cold pan before laying out the dough-only way to go.

Pre-baking the crust made HUGE differrence, along with a quick-90 second-transition from out of the oven, piling on, and back in.

My only beef was the crust still didn't have that real wide open airy look like in the pictures here.  I think that's a time/temp factor.  I did 5 min pre-bake/15 minute cook at 475, but Pizzahogg is onto something using 500, so I'll give that a shot.  Any other ideas?

Wife's birthday next Friday (3/20), she wants and will get a Hawaiian style for dinner. :pizza:

Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on March 11, 2009, 06:06:34 PM
Quote
My only beef was the crust still didn't have that real wide open airy look like in the pictures here.  I think that's a time/temp factor.  I did 5 min pre-bake/15 minute cook at 475, but Pizzahogg is onto something using 500, so I'll give that a shot.  Any other ideas?

Hey PJ
I'm not sure what your formula is but I believe it is the really wet almost batter dough that is one key to the open crumb and texture, along with a rise right in the pan just prior to baking.  In fact, I pan the dough right after mixing then cover and throw the whole thing into the fridge to cold ferment.  Then take it out to pan rise in a really warm place about 2-3 hours before baking.  I can tell when the pan rise is complete when I see those large "bubbles" have formed here and there just beneath the surface.  I am just guessing but I would say it rises 50% in the fridge, then almost triples during the pan rise.  The prebake time I use is actually based on the type of cheese and how much time it can take before burning or overcooking.
Birthday wishes to your better half and hope she has a happy Hawaiian!
Hog 
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: pjbear05 on March 13, 2009, 11:42:25 PM
Hey Hog,

OK thanks, I went the opposite way all around here. Not a real wet dough, and no rise in the pan before pre-baking.  Ditto on the initial rise-I put the bowl in a cold oven, then nudged the thermostat just so it turned on-maybe 100-and let it sit for 20 minutes, then 10 hours in the refridgerator.  It didnt look like much coming out of the oven, but was inflated like a balloon after the cold ferment.

My initial tries were done in a deep round aluminum pan which and only so-so.  That was before I got on the baoards and started getting a better education. I remembered I still had this old pan that had a metal grid overlay which we used for broiling in the oven, and after the grid was ruined I never threw the pan out.  Good thing-it was black enameled steel, and the forum members had that right too.

Damn, I love this board! ;D

Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on March 15, 2009, 10:20:46 AM
Hey Gibby
I picked up a few sticks of Margherita peperoni from Roselli's yesterday and it looks like a fairly coarse grind to me.  I checked and there are no ID numbers on the packaging so I took this photo so you can compare to what you bought in sliced form and see if there is diff.  Let us know how they compare if you would be so kind and maybe we will know if our search has ended.
Thanks
Hog
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: GIBBY on March 16, 2009, 05:46:34 PM
  PizzaHog, We must have missed each other 'cause my wife and I were at Roselli's on Saturday also. As far as the pepperoni goes, the number I gave in an earlier thread is the UPC code number on the side of the box that the waitress at Buddy's wrote down and gave me. (WHEW)  I asked the girl at Roselli's if they carried it and they do not at this time. Because I have so much left over from my previous shopping SNAFU, I will have to wait until it's almost gone before I give them a call and see if they can special order it or start carrying it in the store full time. My Margherita pepperoni is about the size of a half dollar where the Buddy's pepperoni is about the size of a quater. The sticks you bought seem to have that casing on the outside if I'm not mistakin' or is it just a dried out layer of pepperoni?. Did you take it off before using it? Also, mine is about 1/2 or more as thick as the Buddy's slices.  The picture is hard to compare because mine is so thin. Buddy's seems to have more taste and a little more texture than mine.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on March 16, 2009, 08:58:10 PM
Too funny Gibby.  Sorry we missed each other. 
There is a thin casing but it isn't noticeable when cut or eaten and it's about 1 3/8" diameter so who knows...
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: pjbear05 on March 23, 2009, 08:04:48 PM
  HELL!  Almost had it made for Karen's birthday pizza, until I let the pre-bake of the crust go too far-the pan was on the bottom oven rack, big mistake there.  I ended up with an overdone crust in the end.  A shame, 'cause up to that point it was perfect. Oh well, it was still edible, and it did get eaten

Hogg, your notes re a second rise in the pan was dead on.  All blown up like a balloon after the second rise, and the texture after baking was very close to the pictures in the thread.

Well, back to Doris' (local Italian market) for more supplies, and will try again in couple of weeks.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on March 29, 2009, 10:49:19 AM
PJ, sounds like your heading in the right direction for your ideal pie.  Hopefully you will get there sooner than it is taking me or your wife will still be lookin' for that pizza on her next birthday.
Well, tweaks on the formula for this one did not yield any major changes.  Lowered the hydration a notch and only diff was seemed a bit easier to spread and pan, so will continue on this path.  Was considering Crisco for pan lube but something about hydrogenated cottonseed oil just does not seem, well, like an actual foodstuff.  So tried 4 tsp unsalted butter which was better than reg salted and I think I could have used less and will try that next time.  But some kind of shortening may still end up being the way to go.
I am on a pesto kick so this pie was a half and half.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: jeff v on March 29, 2009, 11:02:08 AM
Hog,

Those are look great! The pesto and kalamata look like a nice change too.

Besides the butter any other major changes for the next batch?

Jeff
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on March 29, 2009, 12:37:39 PM
Hey Jeff
I am actually quite happy with this dough as is and have filed it as my first winner.  2 1/2 hours from mix to oven or days in the fridge with your metodo del Valentino all work and I love the crumb and textures.  But to try and get the Detroit clone, I plan to keep lowering hydration.  I am guessing there is a sweet spot out there that is still not bready, but not as wide open as this, which is the target.
Otherwise, still trying diff cheeses and parbake/bake times to nail down the caramelized cheese edge thing.  Some of the Det's have the cheese black as my last one did, others catch it while still brown which I prefer.  Plus I need a more intense pepperoni.  These pies are so loaded that every pep I have tried tends to get lost. I have finally found some diff brands that are labeled "spicy", but they are only avail pre-sliced and frozen in 25 lb boxes.  Even if these are the ticket, that's a whole lotta pepperoni to use up, and if not, that's way too much to suffer thru.  Hmmm, maybe I can use a mallet to pound additional fennel seeds and red pepper flakes into the slices.  Did I say that?  Never mind.
Looking forward to your next foray into this style.  Until then, I'll just keep eatin' the experiments.
Hog
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: GIBBY on March 31, 2009, 11:45:54 AM
PizzaHog, Sometimes having someone else do research works wonders! My wife looked elsewhere and found a recipe (I don't know where it's at right now) using the sponge method. (I heard of it on this website though). It seems to work out pretty well-better than previous attempts. NO EGGS!! And one batch used warmed up beer instead of water. At the time she made it, I was in the basement. When I came up the stairs, a flood of memories hit me 'cause the smell is just like Buddy's. I mean exactley like Buddy's. The dough was also much less dense than before so I beleive we are on to something. More opaque and less like a soft pretzel. Might have to adjust the yeast. Maybe more BEER!!  I can't see Buddy's fooling around too much with rising and proofing and refrigerating and all that, so mixing then rising in the pan has to be a key point for speed and profits. Ours looked ALOT like the Buddy's dough-in-pan pics earlier in this thread.

.........onward.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: GIBBY on March 31, 2009, 12:03:06 PM
Hey Jeff
I am actually quite happy with this dough as is and have filed it as my first winner.  2 1/2 hours from mix to oven or days in the fridge with your metodo del Valentino all work and I love the crumb and textures.  But to try and get the Detroit clone, I plan to keep lowering hydration.  I am guessing there is a sweet spot out there that is still not bready, but not as wide open as this, which is the target.
Otherwise, still trying diff cheeses and parbake/bake times to nail down the caramelized cheese edge thing.  Some of the Det's have the cheese black as my last one did, others catch it while still brown which I prefer.  Plus I need a more intense pepperoni.  These pies are so loaded that every pep I have tried tends to get lost. I have finally found some diff brands that are labeled "spicy", but they are only avail pre-sliced and frozen in 25 lb boxes.  Even if these are the ticket, that's a whole lotta pepperoni to use up, and if not, that's way too much to suffer thru.  Hmmm, maybe I can use a mallet to pound additional fennel seeds and red pepper flakes into the slices.  Did I say that?  Never mind.
Looking forward to your next foray into this style.  Until then, I'll just keep eatin' the experiments.
Hog

I think that the home ovens we use have a real impact on the crispy-but-not-burnt cheese edges we are looking for. If I ever get the cash to buy a scale, I'll most likely use less cheese which will need less time or lower temp in my oven.  fantes.com/seasoning has a section about seasoning the pan using peanut oil instead of butter,veg oil or crisco due to it's high smoking point. I still have over 12.5 lbs of pepperoni to use 'till I find and order the other margherita pepperoni.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on April 05, 2009, 01:13:38 PM
Quote
I can't see Buddy's fooling around too much with rising and proofing and refrigerating and all that, so mixing then rising in the pan has to be a key point for speed and profits.
Yea Gibby, that makes sense, but I wouldn't be surprised if they did fridge it.  Not so much for flavor but so they can make and pan dough by the boatload and pull it out as needed.
Quote
I think that the home ovens we use have a real impact on the crispy-but-not-burnt cheese edges we are looking for. If I ever get the cash to buy a scale, I'll most likely use less cheese which will need less time or lower temp in my oven.  fantes.com/seasoning has a section about seasoning the pan using peanut oil instead of butter,veg oil or crisco due to it's high smoking point. I still have over 12.5 lbs of pepperoni to use 'till I find and order the other margherita pepperoni.
Not sure yet on the cheese thing.  Seems clear they dress the pie and then whatever their bake time and temp is works out for the cheese.  My guess is these are baked in good old deck ovens which I believe tend to bake at 550, some as high as 650, and of course could be lower.  Since we can hit 550 and a bit higher with a stone in a home oven, I hoping this can still be duplicated.  My experiments so far at 550 and with every diff cheese tried tell me a bake time under 10 mins is necessary for the cheese to come out right.  So yea, maybe a lower temp or a dough that bakes up faster or the right cheese...
I have used EVOO, margarine, and butter at 550 and a 15 min bake with no smoking/burning issues.  Not sure what peanut oil would bring to the party.  I am also pretty sure now that the Margherita stick pepperoni at Roselli's is the course grind if you want to pick up a stick and check it out for yourself.  BTW, it is Roselli's that sells the 2 other brands of "spicy" pepperoni I mentioned in an earlier post, so maybe...
Beer in the dough?  That sounds good to me! 
Hog
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: gschwim on April 19, 2009, 01:11:56 AM
I've been away from this site for quite awhile and imagine my surprise to learn, on my return, that my little question about Detroit-style pizza has now reached five pages!  Anyway, I'm back and ready to experiment.

Reading all the entries posted during my absence, the most useful insight I found was the crunch crust being caused by the cheese reaching the side of the pan.  Now, as to the "crunch" on the bottom of the crust:  Before putting the dough in the pan, dump in a generous dose of olive oil.  (I keep olive oil in a restaurant-type ketchup/mustard dispenser and just squirt it in - lots more fun than pouring!)  Then grab a "paintbrush" and just slather it around.  The idea is to fry more than bake, the crust.  And the olive oil, not mixed into the dough, adds a nice, light flavor accent, tastier and more subtle than butter.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: madymo3d on May 07, 2009, 09:13:19 PM
I was just talking to a good friend this morning about when he worked at Buddy's back in high school. Must've been over 20 years ago. He said they'd start making the dough about 8 in the morning and continue until about 11. And that's all the dough they would make for the day. They used iced cold water (like with actual ice cubes to cool it down) and cold flour. After mixing it went straight to the tray and not in the fridge. So at lunch time they'd start using the earlier doughs that started at 8 and got done by 9. He said by the end of the day the yeast are pretty much exhausted. If they just dropped the pan a few inches or piled on the toppings the dough would deflate. I didn't ask him about the actual dough formula. Doubt he'd remember it. He did said they used a spice pack, oil and sugar.

I was never much into the Detroit style pizza because I thought it was too greasy and crust is too bready. But reading through this thread made me want to go to Buddy's and then make my own Detroit style!
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on May 08, 2009, 08:14:29 AM
madymo3d,

For a long time, Buddy's made reference at its website to using a "double knead" process when preparing its dough. When I checked today, I could not find that reference anymore. However, some time ago, in the opening post of the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3805.msg31753.html#msg31753, a link was provided to the Buddy's website, at http://www.buddyspizza.com/secret.htm, that mentions the double knead feature. As noted at Reply 5 in the above thread, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3805.msg31842.html#msg31842, I attempted to get more information on that process. However, I am still not certain of what the process actually entails. Do you think your friend would remember that process? And do you think that your friend would remember the type of flour used, that is, all-purpose flour, bread flour, etc., along with the name of the supplier or miller? It would also be interesting to know if the flour was bromated.

Peter
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: madymo3d on May 09, 2009, 01:20:47 AM
Peter, my friend doesn't remember the type of flour they used or the ratios of ingredients. He never mentioned double kneading. I wonder if Buddy's just uses an autolyse and calls it double knead as a marketing ploy. Kind of like double churned ice cream or slow roasted coffee.

I misspoke about oil being in the dough. He said they oiled the pan and lightly oiled the dough when pressing it out. He said the dough is quite hard to press out, not like the wet dough discussed in this thread. I haven't tried the recipe in this thread yet, but I get the impression recipe shown in this thread is a step beyond batter and not quite firm dough.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on May 09, 2009, 11:19:24 AM
Had an opportunity to visit Buddy's a couple of times since last posting so decided to use this to reacquaint myself with this pie see what I could find out.  Between the literature available there, what I could get the employees to reveal, and my observations (some of this is not new, but maybe confirmed):
The pies were not nearly as greasy as I seem to remember in regard to the dough.  The bottom crust was fairly dry and the interior was not all that moist. 
Cheese is a brick or brick blend, but has way more flavor than any brick I have yet tried.
No oil or sugar in their dough.
At the not original location visited, the pies are baked for 13 min in a conveyor oven at 375.
I was just talking to a good friend this morning about when he worked at Buddy's back in high school. Must've been over 20 years ago. He said they'd start making the dough about 8 in the morning and continue until about 11. And that's all the dough they would make for the day. They used iced cold water (like with actual ice cubes to cool it down) and cold flour. After mixing it went straight to the tray and not in the fridge. So at lunch time they'd start using the earlier doughs that started at 8 and got done by 9. He said by the end of the day the yeast are pretty much exhausted. If they just dropped the pan a few inches or piled on the toppings the dough would deflate. I didn't ask him about the actual dough formula. Doubt he'd remember it. He did said they used a spice pack, oil and sugar.

I was never much into the Detroit style pizza because I thought it was too greasy and crust is too bready. But reading through this thread made me want to go to Buddy's and then make my own Detroit style!


Right on, madymo3d, as the pie I had that was made at around 9 pm was indeed deflated.  The crumb seems to be a just a bit past bready to me though.
So my best guesses here is a hydration between my first attempts (definitely bready) and last attempts (way too open crumb and too moist), also targeting the lower temp and bake time.  This may help with the cheese crust and bottom baking to a golden brown rather than dark or even blackish.  Although I have tried a cold method, and a same day method, I never combined the two so that may be warranted.  A few seasoning cycles for the pan and a more minimal amount of pan lube, prob oil, seems right.  I am not sure what effect "lightly oiling the dough when pressing it out" might have but that may be worth a try to find out.  Once I get off the NY style kick, I will see where this leads.
Photos of the target attached.
Hog


   
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: madymo3d on May 09, 2009, 03:43:13 PM
PizzaHog, what is your current targeted hydration? The recipe you gave in reply #63 had a hydration rate of over 92% if my calculations are correct (1 cup flour = 125g and 1 cup water = 236g). I've never made a crust with that high of hydration.

My friend said he oiled his fingers (dipped in a bowl of oil) and pressed it out. Not sure if it's just to keep dough from sticking to the finger or to add a thin layer of oil to prevent sauce/topping from soaking through.

Are you still on planning to pre-bake the dough? Sounds like Buddy's just bakes straight through if it's a conveyer, but also heated above and below (I'm assuming that's how conveyor oven works) which home oven doesn't do, at least not mine.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on May 09, 2009, 05:08:05 PM
Hey madymo
Quote
PizzaHog, what is your current targeted hydration? The recipe you gave in reply #63 had a hydration rate of over 92% if my calculations are correct (1 cup flour = 125g and 1 cup water = 236g).
With this additional info, I am now thinking 70- 75% to see what that is like since my previous experiments in the low and high 60's were all too bready and the 90% is way over the top.   
Quote
My friend said he oiled his fingers (dipped in a bowl of oil) and pressed it out. Not sure if it's just to keep dough from sticking to the finger or to add a thin layer of oil to prevent sauce/topping from soaking through.
This is pretty much what I have to do with the 90% dough to spread it after I "pour" it into the pan, although I both oil and wet my fingers to prepare for that sticky battle.  If Buddy's also has to do this, it implies to me that a somewhat sticky higher than typical 60's hydration might be used. 
Quote
Are you still on planning to pre-bake the dough? Sounds like Buddy's just bakes straight through if it's a conveyer, but also heated above and below (I'm assuming that's how conveyor oven works) which home oven doesn't do, at least not mine.
Not unless I have to.  The parbake turned out to be necessary step to avoid burning the toppings to nuclear waste at a 500 degree 15 minute bake with the 90%+ batter.  My thought now is to find a hydration level that will bake up at a time and temp closer to what Buddy's uses, which will hopefully avoid the parbake, get the cheese and bottom to that nice crunchy golden brown, and end up with a not too bready crumb.  Heatwise, I agree with the top and bottom as you suggest.  Even when these pies were being baked many years ago, I would assume they were using a commercial oven like a Baker's Pride or whatever, which still provides top heat that our home ovens lack.  To improve this situation for my NY style attempts, I have managed to attain equal heat from above and below using the stone above and below method I learned here with a little tin foil mod.  So I plan to try the same set up when I get back to this attempt.
Quote
I've never made a crust with that high of hydration.
Me neither.  But the crumb, texture, moistness, and lack of density for its thickness that results is quite tasty in IMHO and unique for a pizza, at least I have never had a pizza crust like it before.  One downside is it must go onto a cooling rack and even then its crispy bottom still goes soft after enough time.  But it reheats and regains its crisp really well.  The other issue is spreading the glue like batter.  If your up for that fight, you might want to give it a try.  It is now a favorite around here, although it will have to wait its turn as the NY style is still taking up all my pizza time.
Thanks for the insights!
Hog
 

Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: madymo3d on May 10, 2009, 11:00:10 AM
I gave it a try last night. Since 90% hydration really scared me as being too difficult to handle, I used 80%. Rest of your formula remained the same (1/2 tsp yeast, 1 tsp salt). I took some liberties with the mixing and "kneading" since window pane or finger method of checking dough development was pretty much impossible. Dough consistency surprised me; it really wasn't as sticky/strandy(?) as I thought it would be as it had a skin so it stuck to itself but only little strands stuck to my finger. I was able to rearrange the dough by taking advantage of the skin stickiness. The pan I used was too big (10x15) so it ended up being too thin and I didn't have time to let it rise as much as it should so the rise was very limited. I put the cheese down first, then onion, olive, sauce on top. I forgot to parbake it, but that may not have been necessary. I used 425F on the middle rack until I decided the cheese was browning too quickly so I reduced it to 375 and let it go until the middle started to bubble a bit. Total was close to 20 minutes. In the end it was difficult to tell where crust ended and stoppings began. I suspect some of the cheese didn't melt and dough uncooked.

Result was less than ideal but a good learning experience and I would definitely be trying this again. Kids looked at it and said they didn't want it because we've never had this kind of pizza where fork was necessary and the sauce was on top. But by the end they couldn't have enough because I think the thicker crust compared to NY style was more enjoyable to them.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on May 10, 2009, 02:14:10 PM
Cool madymo!  I'm excited that you tried it and the kids actually liked it.
Don't be thrown off by the seemingly thinness of the batter when it goes in the pan.  At 90%, this stuff blows up big time in the pan with a good counter or slightly elevated temp rise, like quadruple or more.  It is ready to bake when large bubbles are visible just beneath the surface here and there, then when baked that big, wide open crumb results.
Yes, there is no "handling" this goop, but after the 20 min autolyse and 8 minutes on lowest speed in the Kitchen Aid with dough hook, gluten development is good to go.  BTW, I no longer hold back any of the flour but just dump it all at the same time. 
Now you have me wanting to make one of these again!  Today it's a small NY style pizza party with yet another experimental formula and it looks like I will be out of town next week for work.  Dang!
Looking forward to your next pizza, whatever that may be.
Hog

Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: dcuttler on June 21, 2009, 05:44:25 PM
First I want to thank all who have been posting on this thread I just cannot  express how much it has helped to bake a first rate pizza.

I am 71 years old, and grew up in Detroit where a trip to Buddy’s on Conet and Six Mile road was a real treat. I remember the old timers playing bocchi ball while drinking beer and eating the best pizza in the world. I also must Include Shield’s in there too.

I moved out of the Detroit area in the early 70’s and lived in South Carolina, New Mexico, and since 1981 have lived in the San Francisco Bay area where Pizza just sucks!

Over the years I have tried to replicate Buddy’s Pizza without any real success until recently.

A few weeks ago my wife made a Foccoica which was not too bad; actually it was good because of the crust. I said “this might be a good start for a Buddy’s type of Pizza,” and went on an internet search where I found you guys. You need to understand that I have been searching the internet off and on for years looking for a Detroit style Pizza recipe with no luck until now.

I made my first attempt using my wife’s dough recipe, and let it rise for about 2 hours, then pounded it down and spread it out in a big rectangular pan which was well lubed in olive oil. I let it rise again for another 2 hours, and baked it in the oven for 6 minutes.

This is where this thread helped; I cooked the Pepperoni for a short time in a cast iron skillet and dried them on paper towels, and spread them over the dough. I followed this with a layer of Mozzarella cheese with some Parmesan for a kicker. My son who is a fantastic chef reduced a large can of crushed tomatoes with some added seasoning to pour down the Pizza in 2 strips. We drizzled some more olive oil on top, and baked the Pizza until the cheese was turning a little brown. The results were fantastic. We scarfed up almost the whole tray along with some Sam Adams beer to wash it down.

The next day I took the last square to work and heated it in a toaster oven, and sliced it into pieces for some of my co-workers. Talk about raves, I have been boasting about Detroit pizza for years, and once they tasted it, everyone wanted to know when I was going to bring in a full tray!

I do need to make some minor improvements. I need to add a few minutes to the first bake time to get the crust a little more crisp. I used supermarket pepperoni the first time which was not as flavorful as I would have liked, and it was too thin. Next time I will use Molinari Pepperoni which I just purchased at the Genoa Deli here in Oakland. I had them slice it for me in the exact thickness I wanted. This is a local company that dates back to the 1800’s

I have attached some photos of my first successful pizza. Thanks everyone!
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on June 21, 2009, 08:08:45 PM

I have attached some photos of my first successful pizza. Thanks everyone!


Very nice pie there and welcome dcuttler!
Yes, there is a wealth of info and help here to share.  I hope you keep us posted on your efforts and progress.
Good Luck
Hog
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: zalicious on June 23, 2009, 09:14:54 AM
So glad you finally found success! :D Great looking pie.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Dan400Man on July 31, 2009, 07:20:54 PM
This is my first post on pizzamaking.com, after a colleague pointed me to the site after we were discussing our pizza faves, and how my homemade attempts always come out dry.

First of all, I can share all the love on this thread when it comes to the "Detroit" style pizza.  Had Loui's last week and Shield's last night.  I've also been known to enjoy a Pizza Papalis pie, especially the spinach pie, but I always come back to the Loui's / Buddy's / Shields trifecta.

I've been making pizza at home for several years now, but *never* like the "Detroit" styles.  Frankly, I just never knew quite where to start.  Needless to say, the homemade pizza has been, well, "acceptable" and the kids eat it up all the same.  (We live in Saginaw now, so we don't have ready access to these pizza palaces of perfection.)

But now, after having spent the last 90 minutes reading through this thread and visiting assorted links, I must say that I feel inspired.

PizzaHog, I've seen your posts on your experiments, and I think you provided a recipe about three or four experiments back.  And you haven't posted on this thread for over a month, so I am wondering if you've got a "final" recipe that you can share in a form that doesn't require cobbling together from a dozen or so postings.   ;)

Am I doomed if I don't have the mixer?  I have a breadmaker that I can use for mixing, but some of the descriptions I've read in this thread mention mixer speed and some other things I didn't understand.  The funds are just not in the family budget right now to invest in this type of equipment.  And when you guys are talking about the scale, I get the sense it's something more than the $5 unit sitting in my cupboard.  (I should probably get off this thread and review the other contents of the site as I'm sure there are "newbie" threads to be found.)

BTW, even though I live in Saginaw, I work in Troy, so the trip out to Roselli's and S Serra's would not be out of the question.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: zalicious on July 31, 2009, 10:28:19 PM
Your breadmaker will do just fine. Sometimes I mix mine on the dough cycle, sometimes by hand. Old Will Knot has scales for a reasonable price. I purchased mine for about $35. Farm & Fleet carries one for around $25 that I liked a lot.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Dan400Man on August 01, 2009, 04:15:56 PM
Your breadmaker will do just fine. Sometimes I mix mine on the dough cycle, sometimes by hand. Old Will Knot has scales for a reasonable price. I purchased mine for about $35. Farm & Fleet carries one for around $25 that I liked a lot.
The stars aligned.  My neighbor across the street had an estate sale yesterday and today, and guess what I picked up for $10?  An Oster stand mixer, with the dough implements!  I could not believe my good fortune!   ;D

No luck on the scale tho. :'(  What features are important on a scale for the type of measuring being done here?  Digital?  What degree of accuracy?  What weight range?  Is there a way to zero the scale after putting an empty container on it?  I checked out the two vendors you mentioned; I thought these would be a lot more expensive.  What is the "add and weigh" feature I'm seeing on a lot of these scales?

Thanks!
- Dan
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on August 15, 2009, 10:29:24 AM
Quote
PizzaHog, I've seen your posts on your experiments, and I think you provided a recipe about three or four experiments back.  And you haven't posted on this thread for over a month, so I am wondering if you've got a "final" recipe that you can share in a form that doesn't require cobbling together from a dozen or so postings.   Wink
Welcome Dan, and sorry for the late reply...
Truth be known, I have temporarily discontinued these experiments and have not yet found the formula that replicates this crust.  I believe I am on the right track but I guess only time will tell once I get back to this style.  I still make this pie frequently and really enjoy it, but it ain't Loui's crust.  The current formula is:
3/4 Cup + 1 Tblsp + 2 tsp water (Cold tap temp)
1 3/4 Cups + 1 Tblspn flour (KAAP, measured textbook method)
1/2 tsp IDY (Fleischmans)
1 tsp sea salt
Organic palm shortening to grease the pan (crisco, butter, marg works too)
Dissolve salt in water in bowl, add flour and sprinkle IDY on top, mix with paddle until incorporated, 20 min rest, knead on lowest speed for 5 min with dough hook, another 20 min rest.  Then dump into greased 10 X 14" black steel pan and spread with oiled or moistened fingers and cover with plastic wrap that has been sprayed with something pamish in the event it contacts the very sticky dough.  Then allow to pan rise until large bubbles are visible just beneath the surface, usually 2-3 hours.  When time allows, I refrigerate all ingredients before mixing, then put the panned dough in the fridge for 24-48 hrs.  Then allow for the same pan rise when taken out.
Pre bake crust alone on bottom rack at 500 for 8 min, then top and back in for another 7 min, remove and onto a cooling rack ASAP.
My best guess and the next actual Det experiment will be 75% hydration and a 425 bake temp with no pre bake.  This may require a wet knead process due to the "C" dough hook issues, but otherwise I plan to follow the same protocol.  If you give this a whirl let us know how you make out.  We Michiganders will get this down sooner or later!
Quote
What features are important on a scale for the type of measuring being done here?  Digital?  What degree of accuracy?  What weight range?  Is there a way to zero the scale after putting an empty container on it?
Although I still have not purchased a scale, this is the one I have chosen and will request on the next gift giving occasion http://www.saveonscales.com/product_mw_7001dx.html (http://www.saveonscales.com/product_mw_7001dx.html).  The ability to zero the scale with the bowl on it or after the addition of each ingredient is called the Tare function, which this scale has and is most desirable, as well as more than enough accuracy and capacity at what looks to be a very reasonable price.  Others on the forum have this scale and have given it high marks which is how I found it.
Quote
BTW, even though I live in Saginaw, I work in Troy, so the trip out to Roselli's and S Serra's would not be out of the question.
Two of my favorite places for sure and I will be hitting Sera's later today!  Definitely worth the trip from Troy IMHO as cheese freezes well and you could stock up.  In the event you try them and happen to find no one speaks english well (yes, this place is the real deal and this has happened to me on multiple occasions), their Fina table cheese is their version of Fontinella (Prima Sale is the same but not aged), Caciocavallo is similar to Parmesan but melts although remains somewhat chewy, and their fresh mozz is excellent as is their whole milk mozz and provalone.  Remember cash only and don't be surprised if they have to make change out of their pockets and their prices cannot be beat.
Roselli's has the Det pans and yeast cheap, lots of pizza making equipment and ingredients and the best price on peperoni I have found.
Good luck and maybe I will run into you there!
Hog
 

 
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: dicepackage on August 17, 2009, 03:49:32 PM
I converted this to bakers percentages because I hate measuring without a scale.  If anyone knows how to turn this into baker's percentage I would really appreciate it.

Flour  226.37
Water 202.09
IDY (1/2 tsp) 1.57497
Sea Salt (1 tsp) 4.81
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on August 17, 2009, 04:31:06 PM
I converted this to bakers percentages because I hate measuring without a scale.  If anyone knows how to turn this into baker's percentage I would really appreciate it.

Flour  226.37
Water 202.09
IDY (1/2 tsp) 1.57497
Sea Salt (1 tsp) 4.81

dicepackage,

I did my own conversions of IDY and salt to grams and used those numbers, and the others you posted, in the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html. This is what I get:

Flour (100%):
Water (89.2741%):
IDY (0.66532%):
Salt (2.46561%):
Total (192.40503%):
226.37 g  |  7.98 oz | 0.5 lbs
202.09 g  |  7.13 oz | 0.45 lbs
1.51 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.5 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
5.58 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
435.55 g | 15.36 oz | 0.96 lbs | TF = N/A

If I use your exact values and tweak the output of the expanded dough calculating tool, I get the following:

Flour (100%):
Water (89.2741%):
IDY (0.69442%):
Salt (2.12483%):
Total (192.09335%):
226.37 g  |  7.98 oz | 0.5 lbs
202.09 g  |  7.13 oz | 0.45 lbs
1.57 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.50 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
4.81 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.00 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
434.85 g | 15.34 oz | 0.96 lbs | TF = N/A

Peter

Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: GIBBY on August 29, 2009, 09:21:46 PM
Gibby is back in the house. The computer was down for a few months so thats why I haven't been posting in a while. Anywho..If you go back to my first post, I stated that my Godfather used to be the manager at Buddy's. My mom recently seen him and said that I've been on a quest to replicate Buddy's pizza and gave him some details about our methods. He said that the dough needs to be seperated into the veg oiled pans and spread out as soon as the mixing is done. Then you let it rise again then punch it down  and stretch into the corners-that might be the double kneading that was discussed earlier in this thread. The cheese Buddy's uses is Kraft Wisconsin brick. I'm on the prowl now trying to find a source. I'm going to try to get him over on pizza night to show us the fine details which I will pass on to the gang here.  ....GIBBY
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: mantacruiser on September 02, 2009, 06:42:10 PM
I was born and raised in Detroit (actually the NW subs).  I now live in SW Florida and can't find a decent pizza.  I started going to Buddy's (6 Mile and Conant) when I was 6 months old (a very long time ago).  I remember sitting upstairs, looking out the window and watching the men play bocci ball (which I have since learned how to do on the beach), and playing the Everly Brothers on the juke box.  My parents would be there eating pizza and having their bumbas (beer).  As I grew older and worked in Hamtramck, Highland Park, and Detroit, we would go out for lunch and have the much desired pizza and antipasto salads.  I am dying to learn how to replicate Buddy's pizza (Shields would also be acceptable).  I just had Buddy's pizza delivered to me in Florida for a special party I was having to acquaint new Detroiters (Ann Arbor) to the wonders of Detroit.  We also had Sanders hot fudge sundaes and Vernors.  I miss Detroit.  It has gotten too expensive ($70 dollars for 4 pizzas and $70 for shipping) to keep ordering them so I need to learn how to make them.  I have read the forums and feel like I'm a pre-beginner.  I'll keep checking back to see if all of you out there figure it out. :angel:
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: dicepackage on September 02, 2009, 11:44:30 PM
Buddy's pizza and Vernors what a great combo to remind you of Michigan mantacruiser.

I normally visit the Point Plaza Buddy's which is not really a sit-down restaurant.  They have the sauce underneath the cheese and pepperonis but at the Hamtramck location (the original location) the sauce is on top.  Since these two are the only ones I have been to I wonder what the standard order is for the sauce.

I added some pictures from the restaurant in the hopes that someone can do something with that information.  Since the thread is on Detroit pizza I attached pictures from two different places.  Anyway the first picture I attached is a Buddy's pizza and the second is a Niki's pizza.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on September 03, 2009, 11:21:04 AM
Buddy's pizza and Vernors what a great combo to remind you of Michigan mantacruiser.
Sure is, just throw in a bag of Better Made potato chips and some Kowalski sausage then watch the Lions lose to complete the experience.
Quote
I normally visit the Point Plaza Buddy's which is not really a sit-down restaurant.  They have the sauce underneath the cheese
Blasphemy I say!  And this is at an actual Buddy's?  I hope this event was not predicted by Nostradmus for then the end of world as we know it is indeed near  :-D.
Actually, I did notice quite a diff in your photo from Buddy's and mine posted earlier in the thread from their Warren location.  This confirms some lack of consistency going on here from location to location which I guess should come as no surprise but is still a bit disappointing.  I know the Warren location uses a conveyor oven and would guess the old original at 6 & Conant might not.  Oh well, they all must be good since Buddy's continues to get raves and awards.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: dicepackage on September 03, 2009, 09:48:34 PM
Blasphemy I say!  And this is at an actual Buddy's?  I hope this event was not predicted by Nostradmus for then the end of world as we know it is indeed near  :-D.

No, this picture is blasphemy with the toppings all on top.  I'd like to note that I did not special order my pizza this way.  This was the picture in the Free Press Top 25 Pizzas in Detroit at http://www.freep.com/pizzaphotos.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: crcurrie on September 10, 2009, 02:53:55 PM
Hi, Detroit pizza lovers!  I grew up a few blocks from Buddy's Rendezvous on the East Side, and have enjoyed Buddy's, Shield's, and, especially, Loui's, ever since.  Now I'm an ex-pat living near Washington, D.C., and long for the chance to enjoy authentic Detroit-style pizza at home, since I can't get anything like it here at a pizzeria.  Every couple years, I google around to see if anyone's posted a Detroit-style pizza recipe online, and this month, for the first time, I found a promising thread.  It was exciting to read all of the posts and see you guys closing in on your goal.  I just hope you keep going 'til you get there!

My specific question for this post is this: Has anyone come up with a lead on the "Kraft Wisconsin Brick cheese" that Buddy's allegedly uses on their pizza?  I couldn't find anything on the Web, and even tried contacting the Wisconsin Milk Marketing Board and they could find no information about a Kraft Wisconsin Brick production facility -- although they did provide me with contact information for 53 Wisconsin producers of Brick cheese.  A query to Kraft Foods has thus far produced no response. 

I'm also, like a few others, interested in seeing a current recipe or two, reflecting the best results so far.

Thanks again for all this great research!

Chris
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on September 12, 2009, 11:36:12 AM
My specific question for this post is this: Has anyone come up with a lead on the "Kraft Wisconsin Brick cheese" that Buddy's allegedly uses on their pizza?  I couldn't find anything on the Web, and even tried contacting the Wisconsin Milk Marketing Board and they could find no information about a Kraft Wisconsin Brick production facility -- although they did provide me with contact information for 53 Wisconsin producers of Brick cheese.  A query to Kraft Foods has thus far produced no response. 
Hi Chris
My research for this cheese has also dead ended.  The only mention of Kraft even producing a brick cheese I could ever find is in their Canadian product line, marketed under their Kraft Natural and P'tit Quebec names.  Plus, all the references from Buddy's over the years claim their cheese is made "exclusively" for them, so whatever it is and whoever produces it may be out of our reach.
I have also realized that although I have tried more than a few brick cheeses, I have never tried the real thing.  These softish, very mild to tasteless cheeses bear no resemblance to the descriptions I have read of what Wisconsin brick is all about.  This seems to make sense as I find Buddy's cheese to be way more flavorful and sharp.  So the search will continue locally maybe at some higher end gourmet type shops or even mail order.  This cheesemaker claims to still make the real deal http://www.widmerscheese.com/index.php (http://www.widmerscheese.com/index.php) and I am guessing an aged brick is what we are looking for.
Good luck on your research and I will be posting on the next attempts as soon as work and travel backs off a bit.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: crcurrie on September 13, 2009, 08:35:33 AM
PizzaHog, last night I received a reply from the Kraft Associate Director of Consumer Affairs.  While her response is a bit cagey, she seems to be telling me that they *do* produce Wisconsin Brick as a "foodservice" item; however, it is not sold to consumers.  I'm surmising that this is the cheese purchased by Buddy's, Loui's, Shields, etc.  I've followed up with her to ask how a restaurant would order this item (I'm assuming through some sort of distributor).  Heck, I have a neighbor who runs a small restaurant around the corner from me, and I might just ask him to experiment with this cheese on his own pizza, if he can get it (and maybe order a little extra for me) ... :P  I'll post any add'l info I can glean from Kraft.  Looking foward to learning about your next attempts! -- Chris
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: norma427 on September 30, 2009, 09:53:06 AM
I used this recipe for making a Sicilian style pizza yesterday.  I made the dough on Monday.  The first pie I made was dressed first with cheese and then the tomato sauce.  The second pie I made I dressed with tomato sauce then the cheese.  The bottom was nice and crispy, but I wasn't satisfied with the crust or the handling of the dough. The dough seemed to dry to me even though the hydration was 64.111%.  I would like an airy and light crust.  Could anyone one point me in the right direction or change this recipe or another recipe under Sicilian that helped them?
This is what I used and how I converted it for my Sicilian.

Flour (100%):
Water (63.1111%):
IDY (0.3951%):
Salt (2.1875%):
Olive Oil (0.88183%):
Sugar (2.08333%):
Total (168.65886%):
   255.15 g  |  9 oz | 0.56 lbs
161.03 g  |  5.68 oz | 0.35 lbs
1.01 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.33 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
5.58 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
2.25 g | 0.08 oz | 0 lbs | 0.5 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
5.32 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.33 tsp | 0.44 tbsp
430.33 g | 15.18 oz | 0.95 lbs | TF = N/A

I entered a square pan measuring 12.5 inches by 12.5 inches under the rectangular pan.  This is the formula I got under the Lehmann Pizza Dough Calculation Tool.  I wanted to make 3 balls of dough.  I bowl residue compensation of 1.5.

Flour (100%):    926.02 g  |  32.66 oz | 2.04 lbs
Water (63.1111%):    584.42 g  |  20.61 oz | 1.29 lbs
IDY (0.3951%):    3.66 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.21 tsp | 0.4 tbsp
Salt (2.1875%):    20.26 g | 0.71 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.22 tsp | 1.41 tbsp
Oil (0.88183%):    8.17 g | 0.29 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.81 tsp | 0.6 tbsp
Total (166.57553%):   1542.52 g | 54.41 oz | 3.4 lbs | TF = 0.1160744
Single Ball:   514.17 g | 18.14 oz | 1.13 lbs

These are the pictures. 

Thanks, Norma


I forgot to add I did par bake the crust first and then add the dressings.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: gschwim on October 04, 2009, 02:37:47 PM
Boy, am I surprised!  Three years ago, I asked a simple question and now, after a long absence, I come back and see... seven pages of comments!  I can't wait to try some of the recipes you all have posted.  Thanks!

Gene
Title: Tried this recipe last week under Buddy's or Shield's..could anyone help
Post by: norma427 on October 04, 2009, 10:43:59 PM
I posted last week about the pizza I made under Buddy's or Shield's.  I wasn't satisfied with how my results were.  Can anyone help me with this recipe or direct me to another one that they found helpful to make a Sicilian Style with an airy crust?
This is the post I wrote last week.

I used this recipe for making a Sicilian style pizza yesterday.  I made the dough on Monday.  The first pie I made was dressed first with cheese and then the tomato sauce.  The second pie I made I dressed with tomato sauce then the cheese.  The bottom was nice and crispy, but I wasn't satisfied with the crust or the handling of the dough. The dough seemed to dry to me even though the hydration was 64.111%.  I would like an airy and light crust.  Could anyone one point me in the right direction or change this recipe or another recipe under Sicilian that helped them?
This is what I used and how I converted it for my Sicilian.

Flour (100%):
Water (63.1111%):
IDY (0.3951%):
Salt (2.1875%):
Olive Oil (0.88183%):
Sugar (2.08333%):
Total (168.65886%):
   255.15 g  |  9 oz | 0.56 lbs
161.03 g  |  5.68 oz | 0.35 lbs
1.01 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.33 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
5.58 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
2.25 g | 0.08 oz | 0 lbs | 0.5 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
5.32 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.33 tsp | 0.44 tbsp
430.33 g | 15.18 oz | 0.95 lbs | TF = N/A

I entered a square pan measuring 12.5 inches by 12.5 inches under the rectangular pan.  This is the formula I got under the Lehmann Pizza Dough Calculation Tool.  I wanted to make 3 balls of dough.  I bowl residue compensation of 1.5.

Flour (100%):    926.02 g  |  32.66 oz | 2.04 lbs
Water (63.1111%):    584.42 g  |  20.61 oz | 1.29 lbs
IDY (0.3951%):    3.66 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.21 tsp | 0.4 tbsp
Salt (2.1875%):    20.26 g | 0.71 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.22 tsp | 1.41 tbsp
Oil (0.88183%):    8.17 g | 0.29 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.81 tsp | 0.6 tbsp
Total (166.57553%):   1542.52 g | 54.41 oz | 3.4 lbs | TF = 0.1160744
Single Ball:   514.17 g | 18.14 oz | 1.13 lbs

These are the pictures.

Thanks, Norma


I forgot to add I did par bake the crust first and then add the dressings.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on October 05, 2009, 03:19:39 PM
No, this picture is blasphemy with the toppings all on top.  I'd like to note that I did not special order my pizza this way.  This was the picture in the Free Press Top 25 Pizzas in Detroit at http://www.freep.com/pizzaphotos.

Apparently, Buddy's has an option where pepperoni slices can be added on top of the pizza, under the "Spice it up a Notch!" feature noted at http://www.buddyspizza.com/WEBSITE%20MENU.pdf. However, that option doesn't appear to apply to other toppings and I assume that one would have to request that the toppings be placed on top of the pizza.

Peter
Title: Re: Tried this recipe last week under Buddy's or Shield's..could anyone help
Post by: Pete-zza on October 05, 2009, 04:11:14 PM
Norma,

I noted that you used the dough formulation that was originally posted in the Buddy's/Shield's thread by member BDoggPizza at Reply 17 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg62787.html#msg62787 and that I converted to baker's percent format in Reply 19 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg62820.html#msg62820. I double checked your numbers using the Lehmann dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_calculator.html and confirmed that your numbers are correct, although I noted that you omitted the sugar that BDoggPizza calls for in his recipe. That recipe is intended to replicate a Buddy's style pizza. I don't know if that is what you are trying to do, since you previously posted your recipe in the Buddy's/Shield's thread, but that recipe uses a different dough preparation and management method than used at Buddy's. The BDoggPizza method is more like one that Tom Lehmann would recommend, in that it uses cold fermentation after the dough has been prepared, and the dough is panned after the period of cold fermentation.

By contrast, from what I have read at the Buddy's/Shield's thread, Buddy's apparently pans the dough right after it has been removed from the mixer (possibly with some form of "double knead" before panning). It also seems that Buddy's uses at least some of the dough at room temperature after a few hours, for example, for the lunch crowd, although I suspect that some of the pans of dough can be put into the cooler to extend their useful lives (as I understand it, the dough is made and used the same day).

So, how you achieve the results you are after may depend on what you are trying to achieve--a Buddy's style pizza or a more traditional Sicilian style pizza. I personally have researched and studied both styles but have not done much with either because it seems to me from my research that such styles are likely to benefit significantly from using bromated flours in order to get the desired rise in the dough before baking the pizza.

Peter
Title: Re: Tried this recipe last week under Buddy's or Shield's..could anyone help
Post by: norma427 on October 05, 2009, 10:17:46 PM
Peter,
I did omit the sugar, but didn't know how that would effect the dough.  The dough was okay to work with but the taste wasn't what I was looking for. 
I do want to make a more traditional Sicilian style pizza.  I tried to purchase some King Arthur Sir Lancelot Unbleached Hi-Gluten last week from my supplier.  They didn't have any of that product, but do carry it.  I did buy some Kyrol to try and I also have the All Trumps.  I know they both are bromated and I want to try and get away from using these flours. 
Since you haven't done too much with this style of pizza, could you point me to a recipe that I could try? 
Norma
Title: Re: Tried this recipe last week under Buddy's or Shield's..could anyone help
Post by: Pete-zza on October 05, 2009, 10:41:47 PM
Since you haven't done too much with this style of pizza, could you point me to a recipe that I could try? 

Norma,

When I was researching recipes for the Sicilian style pizza, both on and off of the forum, I couldn't make up my mind as to which recipe I would try first. Usually, I try several different recipes within a given style to learn as much as I can about that style and to determine what appeals to me the most. However, I thought that one of the recipes at the thread started by sourdough girl at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5656.0.html would be a good place to start. Also, I was drawn to the method of making a Sicilian dough as described by member quidoPizza at Reply 7 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3805.msg32800.html#msg32800. I believe that that method should work with most Sicilian dough recipes.

I believe that there are many other members of the forum with much greater experience than I with the Sicilian pizza style who can steer you in the right direction based on the results they have achieved with various Sicilian style dough recipes.

Peter
Title: Re: Tried this recipe last week under Buddy's or Shield's..could anyone help
Post by: norma427 on October 05, 2009, 11:04:45 PM
Peter,
I think I will start with sourdough girl's recipe.  I will read the whole thread and then go from there. 
Thanks,
Norma
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on October 06, 2009, 01:21:09 PM
Because bromated flours are frequently used to make Sicilian pizza doughs, over the weekend I sent a message to Buddy's via their website in which I asked whether the flours used to make their pizza dough are bromated. Today, I received a reply saying that the flour used to make their regular crust pizza dough is bromated. That may help explain why their crust has such an open and airy crumb. In a follow-up exchange, I was told that the amount of bromate in Buddy's flour is a trace amount and cooks off in the baking process. "Trace" amounts of bromate usually means parts per million, with 8-16 ppm being typical.

Peter
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: UnConundrum on October 07, 2009, 08:36:13 AM
What about the "cooks off" comment?  Does it change chemically?  If so, into what?
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on October 07, 2009, 10:32:38 AM
What about the "cooks off" comment?  Does it change chemically?  If so, into what?

Warren,

"Cooks off" perhaps isn't the most technically accurate expression but I believe the writer was trying to convey that there is no bromate left in the crust after baking. There have been studies conducted on this point, including one at http://www.aaccnet.org/cerealchemistry/backissues/1960/chem37_573.pdf, that purport to show that unless the initial potassium bromate levels are high, there is likely to be no bromate left in the product after baking for a reasonable length of time. In Buddy's case, I have read that their pizzas are baked for around 12 minutes in an infrared conveyor oven. I don't recall reading what bake temperatures they use but they do recommend that purchasers of their so-called "Half-Bake" pizzas use an oven temperature of 375-400 degrees F.

I have looked at the potassium bromate levels in several of General Mills bromated flours and the levels run about 8-16 ppm. In GM's case, it seems that it is only the hard red spring wheat flours that are bromated. The winter wheat flours are not.

Technically, I believe the potassium bromate is converted to bromides. My original inquiry to Buddy's was mainly to determine whether they are using the bromated flour for getting a better final rise in their doughs. I posed my question in the context of a health concern to increase the chances of getting an answer to my question. Now that I have the answer, I might think about using a bit of ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) to achieve similar (albeit much less effective) results as using a bromated flour. That is the method that Papa John's uses with its pizza flours.

Peter
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on October 07, 2009, 03:06:04 PM
With all the zigging and zagging that has occurred in this thread, I thought that it might be useful to pull together in one place what I believe we know about the Buddy’s style pizza based on information available at the Buddy’s website and from the posts of many of our members. In attempting this summary, I am aware that some of the information may no longer apply or may have been modified, as often happens in a non-static business environment. For example, at one time there was a link at the Buddy’s website to some very useful information on the Buddy’s pizzas, at http://www.buddyspizza.com/secret.htm (http://www.buddyspizza.com/secret.htm). However, that link no longer appears at the Buddy’s website—or at least I have not been able to find it (and it is not archived in the Wayback Machine). It is hard to know what the disappearance of the above link from its once highly prominent position means (unless they are cheapening their product) but since it is hard to imagine that Buddy’s has dramatically changed the character of its pizzas, I will assume for now that the information at the abovereferenced link is still valid. (For an update on this link, see EDIT 10 below.)

Members should feel free to add to the summary presented below or to correct or amplify on any point raised. Here is my summary:

1. Buddy’s uses a “premium grade” flour for its pizza dough, and, based on a recent exchange with Buddy’s, it is bromated (which is common for a Sicilian style dough). The only other dough ingredients are water, yeast and salt. There is no sugar in the dough and there is no oil in the dough per se, although, as noted below, there is oil that is used in shaping the dough and in the pans used to bake the pizzas.

2. According to Buddy’s, the dough is made daily, at each store location, and the dough is double kneaded and allowed to rise for 1 to 1 ½ hours, presumably in pans. Some time ago, after I inquired, I was told that double kneading mentioned above entails removing the dough from the mixer, patting it out (presumably after balling), stretching it, and then panning it (see Reply 5 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3805.msg31842.html#msg31842 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3805.msg31842.html#msg31842)). According to Wes Pikula of Buddy's, the dough is "stretched numerous times" (look for the pertinent text at the end of the page at http://pmq.com/digital/20110607/files/data/search.xml (http://pmq.com/digital/20110607/files/data/search.xml)). One member has reported (at Reply 95 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg73765.html#msg73765 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg73765.html#msg73765)) that the dough making starts in the morning, for example, from about 8 AM to about 11 AM. That dough is then used during the course of the day to fill orders, with the dough made earliest in the morning (e.g., 8-9 AM) being used for the lunch business. Another member, at Reply 112 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3783.msg79248#msg79248 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3783.msg79248#msg79248), has reported that the dough in the pans is allowed to rise and is then punched down again. It was also reported, at Reply 97 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3783.msg73843#msg73843 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3783.msg73843#msg73843), that the dough is quite hard to press out. It has also been reported (at Reply 95 referenced above) that the water used to make the dough is ice cold and that the flour is also cold. That could account for some of the difficulty in pressing out the dough (a warm dough is much easier to work with). However, it is not clear whether the cold ingredients are used all of the time (to slow down the fermentation process so that the dough holds out longer) or only in the summer to achieve a relatively constant finished dough temperature when the stores are hotter than usual. Presumably, the pans of dough can be held in coolers to keep the dough from overfermenting/overproofing and removed and allowed to temper as needed to fill orders. If this is the method actually employed, it would not be unusual for different doughs to have different amounts of fermentation.  I should hasten to add that I have seen no evidence that the dough is held in coolers. (See EDIT 9 below for an update.)

3. There are two basic pizza sizes for the Buddy’s pizzas, a “four square” and an “eight square”. In an exchange with Buddy’s, I was told that the pan size for the four-square is 8” x 10”, and 10” x 14” for the eight-square. The pans themselves are tapered and are made of steel. They are seasoned and are black in appearance (see http://web.archive.org/web/20160211164414/http://msnbcmedia2.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/ArtAndPhoto-Fronts/COVER/080228/080228-pizza-vmed-3p.standard.jpg (http://web.archive.org/web/20160211164414/http://msnbcmedia2.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/ArtAndPhoto-Fronts/COVER/080228/080228-pizza-vmed-3p.standard.jpg)). The pans are oiled before the dough is placed into the pans. Some workers also apparently use oil on their fingers while pressing out the dough into the pans (Reply 99, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg73884.html#msg73884 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg73884.html#msg73884)). I believe the oil is vegetable oil (such as soybean or canola oil or possibly a blend).

4. The Buddy’s cheese for its square pizzas is a brick cheese made especially for Buddy’s by Kraft, in Wisconsin. [Note: See EDIT 2 below.] It is said to be shredded by hand although from a photo of the cheese that I have seen, at http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/08Mf788bNv6xv/340x.jpg (http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/08Mf788bNv6xv/340x.jpg,), the cheese looks more diced than shredded, or else the shred is a short shred. According to Buddy’s, almost one pound of the cheese (15 ounces) is used to make the eight-square pizza. If the amount of cheese used for the four-square pizza is used proportionately, I estimate that the amount of cheese for that pizza comes to about 8.57 ounces, or 0.1071428 ounces per square inch. In both cases, the cheese is distributed to the outer edges of the pizzas to crisp up during baking. The cheese is put on the pizzas before the sauce.

5. The sauce for the Buddy’s pizzas is a non-chunky sauce and, according to Buddy’s, is made with a “blend of Stanislaus premium tomato products”, along with a proprietary blend of spices and herbs. The sauce is put on the pizzas in dollops to form wide “strips” (see http://bp0.blogger.com/__XShj91sMpw/RlJCGZFbuCI/AAAAAAAAAk4/jIeRhr1ub-U/s1600-h/redwings_5.JPG (http://bp0.blogger.com/__XShj91sMpw/RlJCGZFbuCI/AAAAAAAAAk4/jIeRhr1ub-U/s1600-h/redwings_5.JPG)). According to EDIT 5 below, the sauce is put on the pizza prior to baking, unlike several other Detroit style pizza operators (including the Detroit Style Pizza Co, Via 313 and Klausie's Pizza) who put the sauce on the pizza either mid-bake (on a pre-baked crust with cheese applied) or after baking, using deck ovens rather than conveyor ovens.

6. The pepperoni used by Buddy’s on its pizzas is believed to be the Margherita brand. It is a coarse grind pepperoni that is sold under the designation “Coarse Grind Pepperoni”, #38616-31329 (Reply 79, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg69983.html#msg69983 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg69983.html#msg69983)). The pepperoni slices are thicker than usual and have been described as being about the size of a quarter. [Note: For an update on the actual size, see EDIT 3 below.] According to Buddy’s, the pepperoni slices are placed under the cheese blend to prevent charring. Based on http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/08Mf788bNv6xv/340x.jpg (http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/08Mf788bNv6xv/340x.jpg), the four-square pepperoni pizza appears to have 20 pepperoni slices. Extrapolating to the larger size pan (the eight-square pan), a total of about 35 pepperoni slices seems possible.

7. The Buddy’s pizzas are said to be baked for 12 minutes in an infrared conveyor oven (see Reply 28 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg62915.html#msg62915 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg62915.html#msg62915)). I believe the ovens--that appear to be a triple stack with a hood--are shown in the background at http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/images/2008/02/29/image3891595g.jpg (http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/images/2008/02/29/image3891595g.jpg) (see also what appears to be an oil container and brush to the left and behind Mary Hellers, the Buddy’s worker). The only bake temperature I have noted—375 degrees F (and a 13-minute bake time)--is the one given in Reply 98 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3783.msg73872#msg73872 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3783.msg73872#msg73872) [Note: See EDIT 3 below.] Buddy’s also sells so-called “Half-Baked” pizzas (http://web.archive.org/web/20120616150159/http://www.buddyspizza.com/documents/HALF-BAKEDinstructions.pdf (http://web.archive.org/web/20120616150159/http://www.buddyspizza.com/documents/HALF-BAKEDinstructions.pdf)) and, for those pizzas, it recommends that they be baked at 375-400 degrees F. I have seen no evidence of any pre-baking of the crusts. Note: For an update on the Buddy's ovens, see EDIT 5 below.

Despite what we feel we know about the Buddy’s pizzas, there is much we do not know. For example, we don’t know the precise ingredients and quantities of ingredients used by Buddy’s, and we don’t know how much dough is used to make a particular pizza. We would have to purchase a basic Buddy’s pizza, such as a cheese pizza, weigh it, and try to work backwards to arrive at a possible dough weight and thickness factor. I also believe that the use of a bromated flour is an important aspect of the Buddy’s dough, and that the dough preparation and management methods, including hydration values, are also critical to the success of the Buddy’s pizzas. I also think that concentrating on a room-temperature fermented dough, either alone or in conjunction with a period of cold storage (but mainly for dough management purposes rather than for better crust flavor), is a productive way to proceed. I do not believe that “double kneading” is as important as Buddy’s has led us to believe. Some form of stretch and fold, or a rest period in the mixer followed by a final few turns, or a simple punchdown after an initial rise in the pan, should, in my opinion, serve as reasonable substitutes for the Buddy’s double knead method.

Peter

EDIT 1 (12/11/10): Buddy's has changed its website and no longer talks about double kneading or the use of Stanislaus tomatoes or Wisconsin brick cheese although the double stretch method is mentioned in the Buddy's basic menu. Also. it also appears that Buddy's has gone to Foremost Farms cheeses, as noted on the Buddy's menu.

EDIT 2 (11/2/12): Buddy's no longer indicates on its menu that it uses Foremost Farms cheeses but the fat profile (fat per ounce) that Buddy's indicates for the brick cheese it uses is the same as for the Foremost Farms brick cheese (http://foremostfarms.com/Commercial/pdfs/Nutritional%20Information/NDS_Brick.pdf (http://foremostfarms.com/Commercial/pdfs/Nutritional%20Information/NDS_Brick.pdf) ); on 11/1/12, Buddy's revealed that its flour has a protein content of 12.2% (see Reply 105 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg220791.html#msg220791 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg220791.html#msg220791)); Buddy's also revealed that it uses about 8 ounces of brick cheese on its 4-square pizza and half the amount of dough that it uses for its 8-square pizza (see Reply 470 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg220496.html#msg220496 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg220496.html#msg220496) ); according to the information at Reply 318 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3783.msg136795#msg136795 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3783.msg136795#msg136795), the Buddy's pizza sauce is made from tomato paste, water and seasoning, whisked together ahead of time. For additional updates, see Reply 278 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3783.msg119818#msg119818 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3783.msg119818#msg119818).

EDIT 3 (11/14/12): According to Reply 318 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3783.msg136795#msg136795 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3783.msg136795#msg136795), the Buddy's bake temperature is 495 degrees F and the bake time is 11-12 minutes; based on information provided by Armour Eckrich on the coarse grind pepperoni, the slices are 36mm in diameter (see Reply 314 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg223442.html#msg223442 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg223442.html#msg223442)).

EDIT 4 (1/1/13): According to the information provided by Buddy's in Reply 941 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=21559.msg229714#msg229714 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=21559.msg229714#msg229714), Buddy's has been using conveyor ovens for over 30 years. Also, as noted at Reply 706 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg227219.html#msg227219 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg227219.html#msg227219) and later in the same thread, there appears to be substantial evidence that Buddy's is either using no salt in its dough or a minuscule and nondetectible amount, or possibly the Buddy's nutrition information on sodium is incorrect.

EDIT 5 (1/4/13): According to Reply 1026 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=21559.msg230188#msg230188 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=21559.msg230188#msg230188), Buddy's places the sauce on the pizzas before baking, not during mid-bake or after baking as do others who specialize in the Detroit style pizza (using deck ovens); according to Reply 1040 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=21559.msg230250#msg230250 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=21559.msg230250#msg230250), Buddy's has switched to air impingement gas fired conveyor ovens.

EDIT 6 (1/19/13): Paragraph 2 updated to reflect comments of Wes Pikula, VP of Operations at Buddy's, that the dough is stretched numerous times.

EDIT 7 (7/19/13): The Buddy's dough preparation method as described in item 2 above, including the meaning of "double kneading", is confirmed by a former Buddy's worker at Reply 582 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg266486.html#msg266486 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg266486.html#msg266486).

EDIT 8 (2/11/16): For a corrected version of the Wes Pikula inoperative link in item 2 above, see http://www.pmq.com/June-2011/Time-capsule-Buddys-Rendezvous-Pizza/ (http://www.pmq.com/June-2011/Time-capsule-Buddys-Rendezvous-Pizza/).

EDIT 9 (2/14/16): For an interesting and informative podcast, dated November 2, 2015 and featuring Wes Pikula, VP of Operation at Buddy's, see http://info.schweidandsons.com/podcast/wes-pikula-how-to-create-loyal-workforce-customer-base-through-company-culture (http://info.schweidandsons.com/podcast/wes-pikula-how-to-create-loyal-workforce-customer-base-through-company-culture). The podcast mentions that at times the dough balls were held in coolers, and could be sometimes used the next day, with any unused dough being discarded. The pans are seasoned blue steel pans with a black appearance.

EDIT 10 (2/16/16): For the Wayback Machine version of the link in the first paragraph of this post, see http://web.archive.org/web/20100712113114/http://www.buddyspizza.com/secret.htm (http://web.archive.org/web/20100712113114/http://www.buddyspizza.com/secret.htm).
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: dicepackage on October 14, 2009, 01:58:56 PM
I got Buddy's for lunch at the Point Plaza location and tried to gather some information.  I ordered three pepperoni slices and I tried to gather as much information as I could for you guys. I weighed the slices and got the following results for a post-cooked slice:

Slice 1: 140g
Slice 2: 147g
Slice 3: 148g
Average: 145g

Therefore a four slice pepperoni pizza after cooking should weigh 580g.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on October 14, 2009, 02:14:56 PM
dicepackage,

From the photo at http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/08Mf788bNv6xv/340x.jpg, would you say that the pan shown there, with about 20 pepperoni slices (my best count), is a "four-square" pizza?

Peter
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: dicepackage on October 14, 2009, 03:10:21 PM
Yes, that would be one of the four-square pans.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: dcuttler on November 01, 2009, 03:41:58 PM
Today is Pizza day!

About every 3-4 weeks I do my Buddy’s / Shield’s pizza baking day, and all of those that have been here for it before, or heard about it, start lobbying to be on the invite list.

I generally make 3- 4 pans about 11 X 17 inches. If you are going to do all the work, why go small? This brings me to the subject of the best pizza pans. Here in California, all that they carry in the local restaurant supply houses are very expensive aluminum or stainless steel pans. Awhile ago, I did a search and found the very best pizza pan, and for a reasonable price.

An internet search came up with a company that sells reinforced black steel baking pans. Guess where they are located…on Schoolcraft Road in Livonia MI. Yep It must be the same place that Buddy’s and Shield’s get them from. There is a hitch, they are wholesale only, and do not accept credit cards. They agreed to sell me 4 pans, and took my personal check after computing the shipping cost to my home here in California. These pans are great.

The company is P.A. Products. I would include a link, but this site will not let me. it is paprod dot com.

The wine is breathing, the beer is chilling, and the dough is rising. The Paul Butterfield Blues Band is playing on the box, and I am stirring the sauce. We have guests from Detroit arriving in a few hours that will be staying with us for 5 days, and I do not want them to feel too homesick.

Yeah right! Homesick while in the SF bay area?  I don’t think so.

Making and eating the Pizza is a tough job, but these are the sacrifices one sometimes has to make in life, so I guess I will just have to get back to it.

David
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on November 01, 2009, 03:56:32 PM
David,

The link to P.A. Products is http://www.paprod.com/pans.html. The rectangular steel pans with sloping sides are shown toward the bottom of the page. However, I was told by Buddy's that their "eight-square" pans are 10" x 14". Since that pan has sloping sides, can you measure the top and bottom dimensions (a total of four dimensions) for your pan?

Can you tell us how much the four pans cost? Also, what dough recipe are you using and is it a clone of the Buddy's dough?

Peter
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: dcuttler on November 01, 2009, 07:36:37 PM
The pans that I use are 12 X 17 inch on the top, and 10.5 X 15.5 on the bottom.

The dough is from a recipt in Saveur magazine for Focaccia. It was very nice, and as soon as I have some time free, I will transcribe it and place a post on this site. This will have to wait until my guests leave.

I have never been too concerned if my Pizza is exactly like Buddy's as long as everyone that eats it goes home smilling. It is almost an all day job letting it rise two times and baking it twice. Hell, It is never the same twice. I am always changing things to see how it comes out. The results have never been bad, just different. This evening I will make two pies with Pepperoni, and one with mushrooms, green peppers, and anchovies. It's all good!

I use a local sausage company for the pepperoni, and have an Italian deli slice it to the thickness I like.

The sauce is one can of 6 in 1 crushed tomatoes, with a tsp of orgiano and basil added for each pizza. I cook it slow for about 3 hours to reduce it some.

I will get back to you guys with the dough soon.

back to the wine and guests,

David
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on November 01, 2009, 07:54:00 PM
David,

There is a Focaccia board on the forum. Please post your dough recipe there in a new thread.

Thanks.

Peter
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: dcuttler on November 01, 2009, 10:53:00 PM
Why should I do that?

David
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on November 02, 2009, 08:53:35 AM
David,

The main purpose of this thread has been to reverse engineer a Buddy's or Shield's pizza dough/pizza. See, for example, Reply 126 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg81436.html#msg81436. I made the suggestion wearing my Moderator hat, since one of my duties is to try to keep the indexing format of the forum intact. I'd rather see your thread/post stand alone and not get lost in this thread where people may have a hard time finding it. It it turns out that the thread belongs somewhere else, I can always move it.

Peter
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: steve in FL on November 12, 2009, 01:02:33 PM
I would like to try the 'batter' recipe posted by Pizza Hog, but I have a 10x15 pan, not the 10x14 pan he uses.. Can anyone recommend the ingredient adjustments necessary to accommodate it? Thanks in advance! ???
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: dicepackage on November 21, 2009, 02:04:46 PM
PizzaHog I was wondering if you could update us with the latest version of your recipe.

I have tried several on this site and they have all ended up terrible.  I am not sure what I am doing wrong but they look nothing like in the pictures posted.  Mine all seem to come out as thin crust and the toppings fry but the crust never bakes much.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on November 23, 2009, 03:57:58 PM
Quote
PizzaHog I was wondering if you could update us with the latest version of your recipe.

I have tried several on this site and they have all ended up terrible.  I am not sure what I am doing wrong but they look nothing like in the pictures posted.  Mine all seem to come out as thin crust and the toppings fry but the crust never bakes much.

Sure, it is the same as here:  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg78656.html#msg78656 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg78656.html#msg78656)

Updates:  I checked my notes and seems like sometimes I knead for 5 mins, other times for 8 min!  They obviously both work, but you may wish to try it both ways.
I noticed it takes a bit longer for the pan rise here in the winter, like 3-3 1/2 hours or so.
Don't be put off by the thinness of the batter after you wrestle it into submission, it rises big time in the pan, like triple or so.  When you see this plus those large bubbles just beneath the surface of the dough, it is ready to go. 
You can adjust the prebake & after topped bake times to allow your toppings of choice to cook but not burn, just make it 15 mins total, bottom rack, 500 degrees.  At these times and temp with the big time pan rise you should not have a thin or under baked crust.

Quote
I would like to try the 'batter' recipe posted by Pizza Hog, but I have a 10x15 pan, not the 10x14 pan he uses.. Can anyone recommend the ingredient adjustments necessary to accommodate it? Thanks in advance!

That's not much diff, so I would humbly suggest:

1 3/4 C + 2 Tblsp + 1 tsp flour
3/4 C + 3 Tblsp + 1 tsp water
Same salt & IDY

Good luck, and remember this is a sticky mess o' goop batter, but hopefully worth the battle...
Hog
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PIZZA-QUESTOR on December 13, 2009, 04:29:06 PM
Hi I am also a newby to this site.  I just wanted to say that I grew up on the original Buddy's Pizza on 6 mile and Conant.  It was my Mother's Friday day off from cooking meal.   I lived in Hamtramck and we always took advantage of the 2.00 coupon from the Citizen.  My husband and I moved to Rochester MN about 4 years ago and have been on a pizza quest ever since.  Forget about it!! We call the pizza they have here as "stuff on a cracker."  We do order half baked pizzas from the original location (the only place that sends by mail) and for around 120.00, we receive 4 or 5 pizzas in a styrofoam cooler w/ dry ice.  Of course we also order some antipasto salad dressing.  We save these pizzas for special occasions and do not usually share.  I've tried Shields pizza (from Shields Bar on 6 mile) and I do really love Louies.  Does anyone know the name of the white haired gentleman greeter at the original Buddy's.  He has been there for years and years.  I wonder if he is still there.  He is an icon.

Anyhow, I really appreciate everyone's hard work in researching the crust,  sauce and ingredients.  I'm sorry I can't contribute more but know that I will be reading w/ enthusiasm.  I wish Buddy's would open a restaurant here in MN.  Even if it were in Minneapolis, I would have no problem traveling 100 miles to eat it.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Mr Sniffles on December 22, 2009, 09:15:13 AM
Just finished reading all the posts through this link and none seem to really answer the burning questions about Buddys!  I used to own a pizza place and have some insight on dough,pepperoni and sauce recipes that may help some.  Dove in head first at home with the mystery of the Buddys dough and came up with a pretty good clone.  Starter is the key to getting the crispy airy crust you all have been searching high and low for.
STARTER 
1 C Flour/I use King Arthur Unbleached
1/2 C Warm Water
1/4 Tsp of Yeast/I prefer Red Star Bread Machine Variety.
In a non reactive bowl/glass/stainless mix water and yeast and flour into a paste.  This can be achieved with a fork, but dont beat it to death.  Cover with plastice wrap and let sit for 24 hours in a warm place.  After 24 hours you have one of the basic building blocks for your dough.  I prefer a bread machine on the dough cycle for the mixing process.
1/2 C of Luke Warm Water
2 Tsp of IDY
2 C FLour
1 1/4 tsp of salt
2 tbs of milk
1 tbs of olive oil
1 Starter recipe above
Add ingridients together in bread machine  turn on to dough cycle keep an eye on the bread machine and pull the dough out after it forms a ball.  Usually with most bread machines the dough cycle takes 2 hours makes sure you remove it once the ingredients form a ball  Coat ball lightly with olive oil and put in non reactive bowl.  Cover with plastic wrap and let rise 1 to 11/2 hours.  Cut dough into four pieces and weigh each one you are looking for 10 to 11 oz each. Kneed dough with a little bench flour into 4 balls and brush with olive oil. Form the dough into the pans leaving a nice thin lip on all sides  Again cover with saran wrap and stick them in your fridge to proof another 1 hour.  My pans have been seasoned from many years of baking so this helps me out greatly.  The pan dimensions for Buddys is 10 by 8 inches.  Sauce and cheese will be disucced on another post.  Hope you find this recipe close to the original Buddys just make sure you sprinkle the cheese all the way to the edge of the crust.  I also use a brick and cook the pizza at about 375 cooking times vary on the amount of doneness you prefer, keep an eye on it.



Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Ali on January 03, 2010, 05:24:54 PM
Hi.  I'm just another Detroit pizza fan in California.  Thanks to all of you for this post, it is really appreciated.  I just had some info I wanted to share.  Mr. Sniffles, I want to try your recipe, but I know there are absolutely no dairy products in Buddy's crust.  My son is allergic to dairy but after speaking with the manager we found he could eat the pizza without the cheese.  (He did eat it, and had no reaction- which he would have if there had been any dairy in the crust, or even if the pan had been greased with butter or margarine.  His allergy is pretty severe).  I am always looking for delicious things to feed him, so thank you again for this post.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: mibadboy on January 05, 2010, 10:41:09 PM
I've been tinkering with this clone recipe and I'm having a small problem with the center of the pizza not being cooked enough (top overcooked). From reading the whole thread again, I found I'm not supposed to put oil in the dough, or sugar, but not sure if either would cause the problem I'm having. I've made this pizza 50 times and it tastes great...I just have to let it sit for a bit before eating, but the top dries out too fast letting it sit.

I'm using a 10x10x2" cast iron pan and a preheated stone under it on the bottom rack. I've tried 525 degrees at 18 min and 350 degrees at 45 minutes, both have the same problem. The top is overcooked and the middle is a bit too wet. I've tried 60-63% hydration and same problem at both levels.

How much oil should be used in the bottom of a 10"x10" pan? I've been using 1 tbsp of olive oil for the bottom and 1 tbsp olive/vegetable oil for the dough. I let it rise at room temp for 3-5 hours in the pan.

200g of flour is used for this size pan and that's plenty of bread thickness for this pizza.

I put the pepperoni on top, along with green pepper, mushroom, onions and italian sausage. Is it possible my pepperoni and sausage have too much grease? I also use 12-13oz shred mozzerella - sauce on top.

To fix the problem, I will attempt less water (approx 55% hydration), no oil in dough and no sugar as well. Any other suggestions would help. If cast iron is a bad choice I'd love to understand why. Comments appreciated.

This forum got me started on making pizza and it's the #1 place on the net for advice on pizzamaking by far!
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: mibadboy on January 11, 2010, 01:43:43 PM
I figured out the problems regarding my earlier post above and wanted to report back to everyone what I came up with, which I believe is pretty close to a buddy's pizza according to everything I've read and gathered on my own. I've included a ton of details so newbies can create this pie correctly the first time....

I'm using an 8" round cast iron pan (6.5" bottom/8" top) because I like smaller pizzas which give me more crust per square inch of pizza. I also get to eat pizza more often this way! Here is the recipe exactly how I made it last night. I didn't take pictures because of the problems I've had trying to make this correctly in the past and it was so good I ate it too fast to stop and take pics as well.

Use dough calculator for different pan sizes.

Dough: 1 8" round
100% 110g bread flour 11-12% protein (do not add Vital Wheat Gluten as I've tried many times without success)
64%   70g warm water -added some vitamin C in it - see below
1%     1/2t IDY for same-day dough (1/4t for overnight rise)
         1/4t Salt
2%     1/2t Sugar (adjust for browning purposes - some pans allow for faster browning)
Absobic Acid/Vitamin C - my flour was plain flour so make sure you have some sort of conditioner in your dough or it won't rise well. If you buy from Sam's Club, their flour has nothing in it except flour!

Sauce:
4-5oz by weight Tomato Magic Ground Tomatos (buddy's uses Stanislaus products)
Pinch crushed red pepper flakes
Pinch of salt
1/8t black pepper
1/8t Garlic powder
1/4t Basil flakes
1/8t Oregano
1/4t Italian seasoning mix
1/4t Sugar
1/4t Olive Oil

Toppings:
4oz Sorrento 50/50 Whole Milk Mozz/Prov
2oz Tuma Muenster (this blend makes it 33/33/33 each cheese)
1.5oz Margherita Coarse pepperoni stick (thin sliced by hand)
1 oz each (mushrooms/green pepper/onion)

I kneaded the dough slowly w/hooks for 4-5 minutes then left in covered bowl for 1-2 hours on countertop for first rise. In my pan I only used enough olive oil to coat the pan then I coated my hands with oil from the excess laying in the bottom of the pan to oil the outside of the dough as I shaped it. No oil inside dough, just outside...I placed flattened dough into pan and covered again for 4-5 hours to rise a second time on countertop. 2 hours before preparing, I popped it into the oven at about 80-90 degrees to rise further.

Toppings: Place all "wet" toppings and sliced pepperoni in between several paper towels and nuke them for 30 seconds. The longer they sit in the paper the better to remove all excess water without damaging veges. This defats the pepperoni a bit as well. The tomato product is almost perfect out of the can, but I do nuke it on half power for a few minutes to "cook" down the tomato and spices a bit to remove excess water. If you don't take these steps to remove the water, your pizza will taste fine, but texture will be horrible!

Typical Buddy's style: pepperoni down first, cheese, sauce and then veges on top.

Oven: Preheat oven to 550-600 degrees for 20 minutes. Slide in pizza on lowest rack and lower temp to 500 degrees, cook for 17 minutes. Get it out of the pan asap and onto cooling rack to let moisture out. If pizza gets cold while drying, put rack back in oven before cutting.

Note: If bottom is not brown enough for you, do not put back in pan and oven attempting to brown more. It just doesn't happen for some reason. Adjust sugar next time around and/or increase cook time.

Sorry for no pics, but this did make a beatiful slice, very "sponge-like" on the inside without excess water and no gum line at all. The bottom was lightly browned, not greasy at all (one dime-sized piece of dough stuck to pan actually) with no leftover grease in pan when done.

I've tried making this pizza 50 times in a bigger pan, always messing something up. If done this way, your pizza will be perfect as well! Even the newest rookie should benefit from this recipe if followed carefully. I've used at many authentic ingredients as research would allow, so this is as close to Buddy's as it's going to get.

Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: AustinSpartan on January 17, 2010, 10:57:46 AM
I had a nice writeup about the pizza that I made yesterday, however all of that was lost when my file attachments were too large. So, here's the photos to enjoy.

This was the first time I've attempted to make Sicilian style pizza, and it turned out nearly perfect!
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: steve in FL on January 17, 2010, 12:04:51 PM
That looks great, Austin! Which recipe/technique did you use?
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: AustinSpartan on January 17, 2010, 12:10:14 PM
That looks great, Austin! Which recipe/technique did you use?

Steve,

Sadly, I had such a great writeup and lost it all when I went to post... all because of the damn image size. :(

I used PizzaHog's recipe (much thanks to him) and also went with the cold fermentation method for about 17-18 hours. I then moved the pizzas into the oven @ 475' for 5 minutes as a pre-bake, then loaded on the toppings (all underneath), the cheese and then the sauce. This was for 2 12x8 pizzas. Going down to enjoy leftovers now!

Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: GIBBY on January 18, 2010, 02:25:24 PM
Howdy Gang!!! I'm BBaaaacccckkkk!!!  Well, today, I had the day off and my original 25# of fine thin slice Margherita pepperoni is almost gone, so I took a trip to Caramagno Foods in Detroit. Went to the counter and asked the nice lady if I could buy a couple boxes of the coarse grind pepperoni and gave her the UPC code#. She proceeds to punch it into the computer and she looks at me and says "this is a special order item" and me thinks "Great, I came all this way for nothing"! She gets on the horn to someone and they give her the O.K. to sell to me since I don't have a restuarant. I ended getting three 12# boxes. Each box has 4/3# bags. Cost $111.90. It says right on the box "Institutional Use Only". Who comes up with this stuff anyways? Rosellis only carries the 25# fine and the 10# whole link. I asked why he doesn't carry it and the owner says it too expensive. By my math, buying the coarse sliced is just about even. $78.00 for 25# thin sliced from Roselli's or $74.60 for 2-12# boxes of sliced coarse grind from Caramagno Foods. The slight price increase for the coarse ground sliced would be offset to me by not having to peel the casing off or slicing the whole links. I was so grateful I found the pepperoni that I forgot to ask if they were the ones that carried the cheese that Buddy's uses. Maybe if we could somehow get together as a group, we could convince Roselli's to buy the coarse grind sliced. He told me that he has to order 100 cases at a time. Roselli's is a lot closer for me=about half the distance.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: mibadboy on January 18, 2010, 02:31:44 PM
I went to Roselli's 2 weeks ago and bought 10# of coarse Margherita for $38.50. I slice it myself and throw it on my scale since I only use 1.5 oz per pizza. It slices nicely and I've pretty much mastered slicing them thin and consistently. I weighed them and actually got 11# for the price of 10#. Roselli's is awesome and they used to be the sole supplier to Buddy's way back when. They treated me great, even at 4:30 on a Friday when they were cleaning up shop to close for the weekend!
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: GIBBY on January 18, 2010, 02:35:11 PM
It still looks to be a better deal to me 12# for 37.30 already sliced. Like I said in an earlier post, " I"M LAZY".
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: oddlycalm on February 08, 2010, 10:06:10 PM
After leaving Detroit 40yrs ago I went through a period where I attempted to recreate Buddy's (and similar Sicilian) pizza with some success during the late 70's. One of the cooks at my elementary school must have been a Buddy's fan because the pizza we had for lunch in elementary school during the mid-late 1950's was a straight up ripoff of Buddy's spiced ground beef pizza. When I was older and I actually ate at Buddy's on 6mile and I was surprised that the pizza was quite similar. I embarrassed everyone at the table by mentioning that out loud... hey, I was 8. In any case, I have lurked on this thread with considerable interest.

On the issue of cheese, while Buddy's may have used Kraft brick cheese in the past their menu says they use a custom blend from Foremost Farms a huge cheese co-op in Wisconsin. Sorry, hyperlink not accepted, but go to their site and look for the 1950-127 Brand® page.  The picture on the page looks like the cheese in the pictures taken at Buddy's. Unfortunately, since Foremost supplies mozzarella, provolone and white cheddar alone or in combination knowing where it comes from doesn't narrow things down much. I couldn't find any reference to retail sales of the cheese under the Foremost brand name. It says they sell to distributors & brokers.

oc
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on February 08, 2010, 10:18:38 PM
oc,

The link to the 1950-127 Brand cheese is http://www.foremostfarms.com/Commercial/Cheese/1950-127-Brand.php. A while back I did some research on Foremost since they are also a major supplier to Costco's, for the pizzas made in the Costco food courts. I tried to identify possible retail products put out by Foremost and could not find any, although it is possible that they do private branding.

You mentioned that Buddy's menu says that they use a custom blend from Foremost. Is that a recent menu?

Peter
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on February 13, 2010, 03:03:19 PM
Interesting...
I have not been to a Buddy's for many months so the cheese switch is news to me.
So I just sent an email to Foremost inquiring about distributors of their cheese in the Detroit area.  If they respond at all I will post.
I also see a few others have been baking Sicilian since I last posted here.  AustinSpartan's pie looks fantastic!
Norma, I noticed you asking about a more airy and lighter crust.  For me, that occurs at way high hydration, like around 90%.
I make this pizza often, but I guess I like it so much as is I have not returned to the Buddy's clone experiment.....yet.  But I'm sure I will...

Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: norma427 on February 13, 2010, 03:25:37 PM
PizzaHog ,

Yes, I am finding out though experiments that a higher hydration helps give a lighter and airy crust to a Sicilian Pie.   
I also use the 1950-127 brand of part-skim mozzarella in my blend of cheeses for the Lehmann dough pizza at market. Interesting to hear someone else might use this same brand or blend of brands of cheeses.

Norma
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: future_itisnow on February 15, 2010, 04:27:38 PM
I've been watching on in great interest for the past few months as this discussion continues to unfold.  

A couple of things....

- Buddy's uses a full brick cheese purchased from a major US food supplier.  Since they list Foremost Farms on their site, I was able to find a commercial Brick cheese from the Foremost website.  I have the link, but I am not able to post it here since I am a new member.
- Buddy's may cube their cheese for their bake (just like the cubed brick cheese used in their salads, etc).
- Not all 'Detroit Style' places are using full brick cubes, however as Nicki's, Cloverleaf are using shredding without a doubt.
- The sauce is likely a blend of Stanislaus - Full Red & 7/11, possibly watered down a touch to cut down on the thickness of it. They lightly spice it up, but it remains a largely simple sauce.

For what it's worth, on a recent trip back to Detroit I ate at Nicki's and Colverleaf...both places are stellar and rival Buddy's for taste and quality.

I applaud those who have shared so much information over the years in this thread.  Alot has been learned, more is to come.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on February 15, 2010, 04:50:45 PM
There is a link for the Foremost brick cheese at http://www.foremostfarms.com/Commercial/Cheese/Quality-American-Style.php, with the ingredients/nutrition information at http://www.foremostfarms.com/Commercial/pdfs/Nutritional%20Information/NDS_Brick.pdf.

Peter
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: future_itisnow on February 15, 2010, 04:52:14 PM
There is a link for the Foremost brick cheese at ...

Peter

Nice, that's it...thanks Peter.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on February 15, 2010, 05:48:14 PM
I took a look at the latest menu posted at Buddy's website, at http://www.buddyspizza.com/WEBSITE%20MENU.pdf, and there is a Foremost symbol on page 2 and a statement that they use cheeses produced by Foremost. However, what I found most interesting is that there is no mention of using brick cheese in the section of the menu directed to the basic (original) square pizza. The only reference to brick cheese that I could find in the pizza section is in relation to three specialty pizzas. That's three pizzas out of a total of 12 distinct pizzas listed on the menu. I wonder whether they have switched cheeses for their basic square pizza and most of the other pizzas. I checked all of the other links at the Buddy's website and maybe I missed it but I did not find any further references to brick cheese.

Peter

EDIT (11/2/12): A recent version of the Buddy's menu can be found at http://www.buddyspizza.com/documents/Carryout101.pdf
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: lovemypizza on February 15, 2010, 07:02:39 PM
Hello to all Fellow Detroit Style Pizza Lovers!  What a great site!  We were just talking about Loui's and well, here I am.  I am in the process of reading all the posts and will give a try to the dough.  You know the secret is in the dough...according to Loui himself.  Great info.  Will be in touch Im sure I will have tons of questions once I read all these posts..good grief.   We live in Southern Kentucky and no Pizza places here at all, except the chain stores, we love Loui's, Buddys, Cloverleaf and of course Green Lantern.  Talk to ya soon.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: lovemypizza on February 19, 2010, 08:18:00 AM
I read all these posts and got a question, what is 6 in 1 sauce?
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on February 19, 2010, 10:28:24 AM
I read all these posts and got a question, what is 6 in 1 sauce?

It is a sauce based on using 6 IN 1 tomatoes from Escalon, as shown at http://www.escalon.net/6in1.aspx.

Peter
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Guyver on February 19, 2010, 11:08:57 AM
I had a nice writeup about the pizza that I made yesterday, however all of that was lost when my file attachments were too large. So, here's the photos to enjoy.

This was the first time I've attempted to make Sicilian style pizza, and it turned out nearly perfect!

Wow that looks good! Man your making me hungry.  :-D
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Mad_Ernie on February 19, 2010, 03:35:29 PM
I read all these posts and got a question, what is 6 in 1 sauce?

All purpose crushed tomatos in heavy puree.  One of the preferred brands around here.  For one reason, it doesn't contain any citric acid like pretty much all other brands do.

http://www.escalon.net/6in1.aspx (http://www.escalon.net/6in1.aspx)
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Grilled Pizza on February 19, 2010, 10:01:12 PM
This is great to see a Buddy's pizza forum.  My dad would pick up pizza from Buddy's and bring it home to the family.  Loved the stuff.  Have not eaten a pizza that good in years.  Right now I live in Colorado.  Nothing great here.   I sure miss the Sicilian style of pizza found in the Detroit area. 

For the past couple of months we had 6-10 guys getting together each week cooking pizza's.  It all started off with a pizza-cook-off one weekend and turned into a weekly Saturday night pizza party. 

This weekend I am going to try the recipe i found on this forum.  I spent hours yesterday reading though all the ideas and trials on Buddy's Pizza.  Everyone here is hardcore and I love it.  I will let you know how everything turns out.   :chef:

TJ
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Grilled Pizza on February 21, 2010, 07:27:29 PM
After reading this forum I made some pizzas.  The first one was from Pizza Hog's recipe and the second I made a little changes.  Both were great. The second one I added corn meal to the pan and exchanged water for beer.  I have to say it was good.  Try it and you will be surprised.

FYI: I have to say I was scared when I seen how moist the dough was.  I was wondering if this would ever rise.  It does and it taste GREAT!
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: future_itisnow on February 21, 2010, 07:36:10 PM
Nice pizza's buddy. (no pun intended)

I have been tinkering with these recipes for awhile out of the house.  I have managed to get to a point where I think the pizza's are turning out really good, however I cannot seem to drill it 100%...something is missing.  In my opinion my pizza's are lacking the heavier yeast flavor often associated with Buddy's and others (Niki''s being the strongest yeast flavor), and I am missing the buttery flavor as well.  I have prepared my pans with butter, olive oil, and peanut oil.  The peanut oil has turned out the best, but the dough is just not buttery enough.  I am working my way close to a 80% hydration ratio...really making large strides with the open/airyness crumb most everybody is after when mocking these pizza's.

Thoughts from the gallery on the yeasty & buttery flavors?  (I am thinking of moving towards a real sourdough starter/culture to kick up the yeasty-ness)
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Grilled Pizza on February 21, 2010, 08:41:16 PM
Hey Future.  I was thinking the same thing.  My neighbor ran a pizza joint and when he makes his pies at home he only gets the yeast from Papa Murphy's.  You can get the yeast from them.  It almost looks like a clay ball. 

The next time I make this I will try a making a buttery past to coat the pan.  Any insights would be helpful.  I am only going off memory because I have not lived in MI for sometime.  I was thinking of butter, olive oil, _____, and corn meal.  The corn meal will add texture, the butter will add flavor, oil will give it a nice crisp, but there is something missing.  I just cannot put my hands on it. ???
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Grilled Pizza on February 21, 2010, 11:43:48 PM
I just noticed something.  Someone here on this forum has a picture of a Buddy's pizza.  There were parts of the cheese that were black (high points).  This is usually done with a high temp oven.  I think this rules out the 375 for 13 min.  You cannot make a golden brown crust with burnt cheese at this temp.  I bet they used 800 degrees or so.   >:D
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: future_itisnow on February 22, 2010, 12:28:41 AM
Not very likely due to the texture and thickness of the crust.  Typically at those temps a pizza would need to be on the thinner side and with a lot less cheese. 

A sicilian pie essentially 'frying' in a black steel pan would not work at a high temp like that.  I am currently doing mine at 500 degrees with a 6 min parbake before topping and finishing for another 8 min.  You can get the cheese black at 375 as well on the sides without much effort.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on February 22, 2010, 09:41:21 AM
I bet they used 800 degrees or so.   >:D

Grilled Pizza,

Buddy's now uses conveyor ovens. They don't get to 800 degrees F.

Peter
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on February 22, 2010, 04:17:34 PM
I received a response from Foremost on where to buy their cheeses in the Detroit area, good and bad news:

You can purchase the Foremost Farms shredded cheeses at Restaurant Depot in the Supremo Italiano brand.
The Michigan Restaurant Depot locations are at Dearborn and Troy .
Dearborn:  313-582-1420
Troy:  248-588-0755

The bad news is wholesale only-business license required-no sales to the general public  >:(.  I even called them, no exceptions.  I will be looking for some way around this, but in the meantime, here is a link:  http://www.restaurantdepot.com/index.aspx (http://www.restaurantdepot.com/index.aspx).  They look to have around 5 or 6 dozen locations thru out much of the US.

On the whole brick cheese switch thing, I am thinking maybe they are now using a white cheddar blend?  I have never had "real" brick cheese, but from what I have read it is often likened to a white cheddar.  Thanks for the research Peter.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: dicepackage on February 22, 2010, 05:40:33 PM
That's too bad about the cheese.  Maybe we can convince Roselli's to buy some for resale.

As for the oven question I know the Buddy's closest to me uses a conveyor oven.  They also are the only buddy's that does cheese rather than sauce on top and the cheese is never browning.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: dicepackage on February 23, 2010, 12:08:39 AM
This seems way too wet to even be possible but I calculated this out to a 96% hydration for pizzahog's recipe.  Maybe I did something wrong but at this ratio there is no way kneading is even a slight possibility.  Am I doing something wrong here?  I converted pizzahog's recipe from volume to weights and this is what I got.

Original:
1 3/4 C + 2 Tblsp + 1 tsp flour
3/4 C + 3 Tblsp + 1 tsp water
.5 tsp IDY
1 tsp salt

Conversion to weights:
Sifted AP Flour 234.465g or
Water 227.125g
IDY 1.35g
Salt 5.58g
Total 468.52g

And when I tryed to plug it in to the dough calculator.  I tweaked the numbers to make the IDY and Salt match up to the volume measurements.

Flour (100%): 234.39 g  |  8.27 oz | 0.52 lbs
Water (96.8694%): 227.05 g |  8.01 oz | 0.5 lbs
IDY (.64%): 1.5 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.5 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
Salt (2.38%): 5.58 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
Total (199.8894%): 468.52 g | 16.53 oz | 1.03 lbs  TF: .109128
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Aaron on February 23, 2010, 02:53:56 PM
F.Y.I if you are a member of KCBS you can shop there.
Aaron
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on February 23, 2010, 04:29:42 PM
This seems way too wet to even be possible but I calculated this out to a 96% hydration for pizzahog's recipe.  Maybe I did something wrong but at this ratio there is no way kneading is even a slight possibility.  Am I doing something wrong here?  I converted pizzahog's recipe from volume to weights and this is what I got.

dicepackage,

Your numbers look correct. As best I can tell, you were working off of PizzaHog's numbers as given at Reply 138 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg84144.html#msg84144. Elsewhere, PizzaHog said that he was using KAAP. If memory serves me correct, he noted, perhaps in another thread, that he made use of November's Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator at http://foodsim.toastguard.com/ to do conversions (apparently for the flour and water). I ran the volume measurements for flour and water throught that tool and, using the weight values for all ingredients in conjunction with the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, I came up with the following dough formulation:

Flour (100%):
Water (95.8932%):
IDY (0.63698%):
Salt (2.3606%):
Total (198.89078%):
236.44 g  |  8.34 oz | 0.52 lbs
226.73 g  |  8 oz | 0.5 lbs
1.51 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.5 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
5.58 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
470.25 g | 16.59 oz | 1.04 lbs | TF = N/A

As you can see, your numbers are very close to what I got.

Peter
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on February 23, 2010, 07:01:36 PM
Dice
It just dawned on me that one has to go way back in this thread to note my descriptions of this dough, like batter, goop and structural adhesive.  Sorry about that but you are correct, no handling poss.  Knead in the mixer, pour/scrape into the pan, oil up fingers and spread and smush out.  I hope you try it again.  This post might be help http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=ac222e1db566e817e314de12893d84c0&topic=3783.msg68444#msg68444 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=ac222e1db566e817e314de12893d84c0&topic=3783.msg68444#msg68444).
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on February 23, 2010, 07:06:05 PM
F.Y.I if you are a member of KCBS you can shop there.
Aaron
Aaron, what is KCBS? 
Thanks!
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: dicepackage on February 23, 2010, 11:14:27 PM
I tried it and while it didn't turn out like Buddy's it was good.  I followed the directions PizzaHog gave exactly with the exception of using a 9-inch pan.  I think the main problem is it never seems to rise.  The dough is the same thickness after cooking as it is when it first goes in the pan.  The dough is also not airy like in the pictures I have seen.  Mine seems to be very gooey after cooking but never develops any sort of crisp.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on February 24, 2010, 10:51:01 PM
Dice
Hmmm...   This has never failed to rise big time for me although I have found the time required can vary quite a bit depending on the season.  Maybe another hour or two would have gotten it there, or could there be a diff in activity level in the yeasts we use?
I have only ever baked this in a black steel pan and after 15 min at 500 its way crisp.  I wonder if the black pan might be a factor.  I also found shortening works best to stay put under the dough during the spreading fight for a good fry without being too greasy.
Glad it was still ok at least.  More than a few of mine weren't and it seems adjustments are always necessary.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Grilled Pizza on February 24, 2010, 11:18:14 PM
Hi Dice,

When I followed Pizza Hog's recipe, my dough did rise.  Did you do all of the following:
1 - Dissolve salt and water in the mixing bowl
2 - Mix flour, salt, water and yeast with plastic or wooden spoon until incorporated. Let it rest a minimum of 20
3 - Knead on the lowest speed for 5 minutes (NO MORE)
4 - Let dough rest for 20 minutes after kneading.
5 - Allow dough to rise for 3 hours.  I did mine at room temp.

Also, it may have been the yeast.  Bad yeast will get you every time.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Aaron on February 25, 2010, 08:00:42 AM
Pizzahog it stands for Kansas City Barbecue Society look here for more info www.kcbs.us
Aaron
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: GIBBY on February 25, 2010, 12:16:20 PM
Hello to all Fellow Detroit Style Pizza Lovers!  What a great site!  We were just talking about Loui's and well, here I am.  I am in the process of reading all the posts and will give a try to the dough.  You know the secret is in the dough...according to Loui himself.  Great info.  Will be in touch Im sure I will have tons of questions once I read all these posts..good grief.   We live in Southern Kentucky and no Pizza places here at all, except the chain stores, we love Loui's, Buddys, Cloverleaf and of course Green Lantern.  Talk to ya soon.
lovemypizza, Get the recipe right and you might have a new profession! Anyways, I'm going to have my wife write down her dough concoction recipe that she found which she has modified through trial and error and will post everything we do up to putting on your plate. We are currently working on a connection that works at Buddy's and ask him to get the wrapper from the cheese they use so there will be no doubt. My step dad is the current commadore at the boat club he's a memeber at and he thinks our pizza is good enough that he wants us to help him in a boat club pizza night to raise money for the club. If that Troy distributor needs a buisness licence, then I might be able to use his and then buy extra for me :chef:.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Grilled Pizza on February 27, 2010, 12:07:15 AM
Tomorrow I am making another pizza.  Any thoughts on what to do to make a crispy crust.  This is one thing I am lacking.  I was going to try Crisco.  I don't know if this is the right thing to do.  When I worked at Speakeasy on Van Dyke and West Rd I think it was just oil.  They had the crispy crust like Buddy's, but I was just a busboy and did not know the details.  Please give me some ideas.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on February 27, 2010, 12:27:35 PM
Grilled Pizza
Every pan lube I have tried has lead to a crispy crust.  I believe one factor is the black steel pan, which is what all the Det style pizzerias use.  Beyond that, it's prob a temp and time thing, although I also always bake these on the lowest oven rack which I think helps too.
One difficulty with oil is keeping it under the dough while spreading it since for me it always tends to get pushed out to the edges.  Research supports the use of oil at Buddy's and the like, but they also have very highly seasoned pans which may allow them to get away with this easier than we can (this general reality has been discussed on the forum for many styles).  I am thinking at this point that is the case since the last few Buddy's I picked up were surprisingly non greasy on the bottom = seasoned pans with a minimum of oil.  Currently I favor brushing shortening on the pan cause it stays in place and it does not take much at all.  After reading the label on Crisco, I ended up buying a tub of organic palm oil shortening at whole foods and it works fine.  But then again, this all applies to the over the top hydrated dough and if you are trying less hydration oil may do the trick.
I would be happy to pick up some of these black steel pans for you and ship them out, but presently there is good and bad news here again.  They are quite cheap as the 10x14 (Buddy's large size) is only $6.95.  The bad news is I was just there yesterday to pick up another one for myself and the current batch lot they have in the small and large sizes are not black, but gray!  They allowed me to open a new box full and they were all gray too.  They also have a larger size, maybe 12x17, that is still black and poss even one larger.  I passed, hoping this is a manufacturer's variance and in time they will return in black. 
I was also able to note the manufacturer on the unopened box label:  Dover Parkersburg.  I just spent 10 minutes googling them though and could find no other distributor of their pans but plenty for their other steel products which are numerous - Aaarrgghh!  If you are interested send me a PM and good luck on tomorrows pizza!

Aaron, thanks for tip on KCBS.  As it happens though, I stumbled onto someone who shops at Rest Depot twice/week and is willing to pick up some cheese for me.  That should happen next week IF they carry the mozz-white cheddar blend or even just the white cheddar, which is why I was looking to buy more pans for multiple experiments.  I will report on the cheese once tried.

Hog
 



Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on February 28, 2010, 10:47:12 AM
Cheese update:
My shopping contact reports that the local Restaurant Depot only carries the Foremost/Supremo Italiano in the Mozz and Mozz/Prov blends - no white cheddars.  Foiled again it seems...
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Grilled Pizza on March 07, 2010, 10:32:55 PM
Hi Pizza Hog,

I am working on something that might be great for all of us.  Pans, cheese, etc.  I will keep you posted.

Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: steel_baker on March 08, 2010, 05:22:37 PM
OK, So I'm from Pittsburgh and today made the trip from home to Lansing, MI for a business meeting tomorrow. After reading about Buddy's on here, I thought I'd try it out. I planned my trip to drive up through Toledo on I-280, I-75, then I-275 west of Detroit and stopped for lunch at the Livonia Buddy's location. Now, I'm a fairly experienced sicilian pizza baker and seem to have a knack for deconstructing unique pizzas so here is my analysis. All of you who live in the detroit area , feel free to critique as I'm sure that you have more knowledge and more experience with Detroit style pizza than I do but here goes:

The crust to me is a standard sicilian baked in a black steel pan, nothing special in that regard except- there is a light layer of hard cheese (tastes like parmesan to me) baked on top of the crust. The baked crust is removed from the oven, the remaining "soft" cheese is added & then the sauce (tastes very marinara like to me) is put on top of the cheese, and the pizza is cut & served. It was obvious to me that the soft cheese & sauce had not been baked at all, no signs of burning or cooking in any way. The topping of the pizza with the fresh shredded cheese after it is baked is similar to the Ohio valley pizza style. This is a sicilian style that shows up a little bit in Pittsburgh and some of the eastern Ohio River communities. Dicarlos is one of the small Ohio Valley chains that does this and they top it with provolone after the crust comes out of the oven, then cut & serve. The crust is baked with the sauce on it first.

If I was trying to duplicate Buddy's pizza, here is how I would do it:

1. Prepare the Sicilian dough, place in well oiled pan and stretch, rise, stretch to fit pan, rise again.

2. Top the crust evenly with finely grated parmesan being extra careful to build up the sides slightly where the crust meets the pan to get the wispy "stand up" crust on the edges that every Buddy's pizza has.

3. Bake at 450 or hotter for 10-15 mins until the parmesan turns brown & crisp around the edges

4. Pull the baked crust & immediately top with shredded soft cheese & sauce, then cut & serve.

Don't know what the soft cheese is but that is obviously one of their secrets. Their menu says that it's specially prepared just for them in Wisconsin. I sat at the bar to eat and people at the bar must have though I was nuts because I kept picking each slice apart as I ate it examining the crumb of the dough, the cheesy crust on top, etc. I think that the dough is not an especially high hydration, maybe 65-68%, but the salty crispiness of the parmesan on the top is unmistakable. Not much oil in the crust either.

So that's my analysis of Buddy's pizza. I enjoyed it, thought it was pretty good and will certainly stop again in the future. I just thought that if my analysis of it could shed any light on how this pizza is made, then the visit would be worthwhile.

Comments?

steel_baker
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on March 08, 2010, 07:18:14 PM
steel_baker,

According to the first photo in Reply 26 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg62851.html#msg62851, it does not look to me that there is any pre-baked crust with a hard cheese like a Parmesan cheese. The dough in the photo looks unbaked and the pepperoni look uncooked.

Peter
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: steel_baker on March 08, 2010, 07:31:38 PM
It's there without a doubt. That's what the burnt crispies around the edges are. Parmesan creates a very dry  crispy texture when it browns. The photo doesn't really show it. I ate 2 pieces at lunch, and brought two leftover pieces with me to my hotel. Just ate one of them. The flavor is unmistakeable. Browned Parmesan is a significant part of Buddy's flavor. Try it for yourself at home. That's the real test.

Steel_baker
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: steel_baker on March 08, 2010, 08:21:28 PM
Also, I'm not saying that the crust was pre-baked, it's baked only once. But my pizza was baked with the hard cheese on it, then pulled out and topped with the sauce & soft cheese and served. They probably keep the sauce hot in a pot and spoon it over the soft cheese that they put on the crust. All of the soft cheese on the 4 square I had was in the center of the pizza. That left the perimeter of the pizza relatively exposed and it was easy to see the hard cheese baked on the crust. I was actually able to pick at it and remove the "cheesy skin" with my fork. The runny soft cheese on top was definitely not baked but completely melted from the heat of the crust beneath and the hot sauce on top.

Regarding the pics, these are all before baking so you really wouldn't see anything but raw dough. I noticed in the bottom pic it's risen in the pan, just as I do with my fried in the pan Sicilian. On the pepperoni pizza, notice where he's putting the cheese... he's building it up on the edges, and yes he will cover the pepperoni with it. The cheese he is using doesn't appear shredded though, it appears more like it's coarsely ground, like a hard cheese. Then after the baking, they put the soft cheese & sauce on it.

Maybe they put it back in for a another minute or so to better "blend" the different cheeses on top, I don't know, this is the first time I've had it but these are my first impressions.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on March 08, 2010, 08:53:33 PM
steel_baker,

I have never had a Buddy's pizza, so I am not the best one to comment on your thesis. I was perhaps not clear enough when I used the term "pre-bake". What I meant to say is that the dough is not baked before being completed. On the matter of the crusty cheese effect at the perimeter of the crust, I have achieved that same effect when I have made Greek/pub and cracker-style pizzas baked in cutter pans. I would intentionally load up the edge of the dough with the cheese(s) to specifically get that effect. As in the photo I referenced, I started adding the cheese first around the perimeter and then filled in the rest of the pizzas with the cheese(s). For some time now, I have been using diced cheese on my pizzas. That is a form that many pizza operators use. So, I would not be surprised to learn that Buddy's is also using diced cheese. I dice my cheeses in my Cuisinart food processor to any size dice that I would like. I'm not sure that Parmesan cheese can be diced that way. I would have to get a fresh supply and test it.

I recalled another photo of a Buddy's pizza that shows some cooking of the cheese, at http://bp0.blogger.com/__XShj91sMpw/RlJCGZFbuCI/AAAAAAAAAk4/jIeRhr1ub-U/s1600-h/redwings_5.JPG. Since that photo, Buddy's has changed cheese vendor (from Kraft to Foremost), and it may also have gone to a new cheese blend, so the photo may not be completely representative of what Buddy's is doing today.

Peter
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on March 08, 2010, 08:54:43 PM
Sheesh, this pizza is like the holy grail - no one know quite what it is and it appears different to each person!  I really am starting to believe there are some significant differences between their various locations in how they build and bake these.  The photos I posted and those from dicepackage look quite different in some important aspects (5 months apart, 2 diff locations).  Or maybe they are just changing things up again like the possible brick/cheddar switch.  The last pie I purchased was a "half baked" and all the cheese was half baked at that point as well, for whatever that is worth.  So you may be right steelbaker, who knows at this point.
At any rate, I was not going to post until I got thru all my latest planned experiments, but since we are on the subject, here is tonight's attempt:
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: future_itisnow on March 08, 2010, 08:57:01 PM
pizzahog...are those pics from your own recipe?  well done if so.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on March 08, 2010, 09:14:55 PM
Hey future
Yes, thanks, another of my experiments (like # 123.25 v6), also my dinner, and I still have the burnt cheese caked pan to prove it.  The closest one and best one so far.  I am starting to think I may actually find that grail yet - hopefully anyway.
Peter and steelbaker just gave me a few ideas that might really help on some lacking elements too.
Thanks guys!
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Grail Seeker on March 10, 2010, 04:00:52 PM
Hey PizzaHog,

Those pix look like the real MC Coy!

I've read all the threads (4 hrs worth) about Buddy's. My parents used to take us kids there maybe once a month at Conant & 6 mile. The line to get in was usually a block long, or about two hour wait. People had their old seasoned pans in hand, which were from the previous carry outs after the last time they stood in line for hours. I think they charged .50 deposit on the pans. This was in the 60's & early 70's.
That taste is unique and I have never tasted anything like it. I've never been to Shields or Louie's, but I'm going to check it out soon. I too have been trying to crack the Grail and appreciate all of your work to do it.
Is it time for a complete recipe update? Did you try the beer, parmason cheese?
Jet's has a pretty good crust, but the rest is sub (grail) standard.

Keep up the good wood work!
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: pjbear05 on March 10, 2010, 10:08:52 PM
One more old place to add to the mix.  Anybody remember Cal's on the east side, Warren and Cadieux area?  Karen swears they had the best crust for Detroit style.  I remember it being real rich, probably lots of butter in the dough.  ;D
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on March 11, 2010, 10:36:02 AM
PJ
Cal's is still here, selling pizza's out of a bar in St Clair Shores called G Willie's.  Yup, a great pie and fine example of the Detroit style.  They may still have a location somewhere on the east side of Detroit too I believe.
Last night was two more experiments and the second one was the breakthrough at last.  That pie as a whole is as about as close as I can manage by memory, although the hydration in the previous test with photo may actually be closer, or somewhere in between.  Next steps are to repeat that experiment to confirm along with a side by side comparison and to pick up a scale for accurate reporting and the minor adjustments I know will be necessary.  I am on a mission and intend to see this thru to that point at which time I will post the whole 9 yards so anyone interested can try it, tweak it, and improve upon it.
Yes, this pie was non Detroit with peperoni on top, but I had to concede to that request along with light sauce for my pizza tester, who also felt this pie was way close.
I am geeked.

 
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: steve in FL on March 11, 2010, 10:39:37 PM
Hog, I've used your recipe/technique a few times now, and had different results each time, surely because I've used different pans each time.. I have to find some black steal pans in this town.. I'm sure that would give me what I'm looking for..

[Unfortunately.. since I first started monitoring this thread, I've become a statistic of the economic times and lost my job.. I've had to pack my things into storage and moved back up to MI to stay with my dad until things pick up.. however, fortunately he lives in Sterling Hts, and the Buddy's at Old 13/Vandyke is only minutes away! Can't wait to get back there and have the real deal once again.. I must get pictures..]





Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: pjbear05 on March 13, 2010, 11:39:26 AM
Thanks Hog,  I have a sister in St. Clair Shores who was a big Cloverleaf fan, and know she should check out G Willie's for sure.

BTW, I notice in your pics that you transfer your pie to a cooling rack.  For how long before serving, and the purpose, please.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on March 14, 2010, 12:11:24 AM
Finally the basics are all together so here is my recipe for Detroit Style Pie.
I attempted to incorporate as much of the info contained in this thread as possible.  Sort of trying to imagine how one of these pizzerias would pump out the dough and pies every day.  Whenever in doubt I referred to the KISS theory.  I also tried to use easily findable ingredients for everyone's convenience.  In the end this is a simple and forgiving dough but the devil was in the other details.
No scale, all measurements textbook method.

Flour (100%):    273.04 g  |  9.63 oz | 0.6 lbs               2C + 3 T
Water (75%):    204.78 g  |  7.22 oz | 0.45 lbs            ¾ C + 1 T + 2 ½ t
IDY (0.55%):    1.5 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.5 tsp | 0.17 tbsp      ½ t
Salt (1.5%):    4.1 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.73 tsp | 0.24 tbsp   ¾ t
Total (177.05%):   483.42 g | 17.05 oz | 1.07 lbs | TF = 0.1218

KAAP, table salt, tap water, KA mixer with "C" dough hook, 10x14 black steel pan.
Dissolve salt in water, add flour, sprinkle IDY on top.  Mix on lowest speed until incorporated then continue on this speed for a 8 min knead.  20 mins rest to relax then scrape into greased pan, spread, cover, rise, dress and bake on bottom oven rack for 15 min at 475.

Yeast.  I have varied between 0.33 and 1.1% and the only noticeable effect was rise time so adjust away.  The above formula is usable in 3-4 hours at room temp for me.

This is a wet, soft, sticky, extensible dough.  Not much handling possible or needed.  With fingers oiled from the tips to 2nd joint it smooshes out fairly easy.  The "double knead" process does make it easier to spread as described in Peter's helpful summary http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg81436.html#msg81436 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg81436.html#msg81436).

The magic cheese here is indeed white cheddar.  If these pizzarias are not/were not using this, then it must be white cheddar's twin sister.  I have used Boar's Head Vermont white cheddar and Cabot Extra Sharp white cheddar from Walmart, sold in 2 lb blocks and half the price of Boar's Head.  The Cabot is the sharper, saltier, and more intense of the two, but they both caramelize up golden to brown (not black) and have the unmistakable flavor profile of the Detroit style.  Blending these with a mozz that goes creamy and goey adds an interesting effect and can soften the sharp cheddar if desired, but ONLY pure white cheddar should be used on the perimeter of the pan to create the all important caramelized cheese crust.  Shredded or cubed both work.  Pile the cheese up around the perimeter of the pan then fill in the center.  15 oz is what Buddy's indicate they use.

Pan prep.  Every pan lube I have tried works.  OO appears to be most authentic and is what I am using now.  Getting this right results in a good crisp fry without the pie ending up greasy.  In the 10x14 pan, 1 1/2 tsp spread with a pastry brush is about perfect since the brush does soak up and remove some of the oil.  The cheese crust always welds itself to the pan for me.  To prevent this, I paint a thin strip of shortening just above the risen dough with a brush around the sides of the pan before piling on the cheese.  It still does not pop out, but can at least be released with just a little effort. 

Sauce.  All the Detroit pizzerias have quite diff sauces and 6 fluid ounces seems about right for a 10x14.  I have not yet succeeded in coming up with any of the individual sauces of the big 3, I think. 

The crumb and texture here is better than passable but I believe bromated flour would be necessary to close the gap.  Even so, this pie could be mistaken for one of the real things, past or present.  That is due to these pizzas being a moving target.  Since starting this quest I have used 4 diff Buddy's locations for "controls" and over that year have experienced 3 diff versions of the same pie!  The last was just this week and after I thought I had the sauce figured, they either changed it dramatically or the particular location I visited (for the first time) is just diff or something.  Plus the cheese was not right.  It was one of their carry out only's so maybe that is the reason?   
 
PJ, I pull the pie out of the pan immediately and onto a cooling rack to preserve the bottom crisp until served.  I found this helped with the way over hydrated 90% version of Sicilian dough and also with some NY styles.  To be honest, I never tested if this matters with this particular formula but am just in the habit.

That's all I can think of for now.
Hog


Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: dicepackage on March 14, 2010, 07:12:27 PM
I'm glad to see another version of the dough recipe.  I look forward to trying this one and hopefully I can get it right this time.

I wanted to make my own Buddy's clone the other day but I was out of flour unfortunately.  Rather than go a day without eating pizza I decided to visit Buddy's instead.  I got two slices from the point plaza location and have the pictures shown below.  It was good but the pictures PizzaHog posted looks more appetizing.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Grilled Pizza on March 14, 2010, 09:36:10 PM
Great job Pizza Hog.  Your pizza looks awesome.  Your pizza looks more like Buddy's than the picture of Buddy's pizza by Dice.  My dad knew "Old Man Buddy" back in the day and he said the pizza is different that what it is today.  He made Pizza Hog's pizza and said it is pretty close.  I cannot wait to try the new recipe.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: dicepackage on March 14, 2010, 11:50:13 PM
I am going to try to make this version tomorrow for lunch.  Do you par-bake your dough for this version?
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on March 15, 2010, 11:07:29 AM
Dice
No prebake, just pile everything on and into the oven.  Remember my formula is without a scale at this point so my hydration % is prob off a bit.  Having said that, pick a number between 70 and 75% and you should be in the ballpark.  At "my" 70% 15 mins at 450 baked up right, and at 75% 15 mins at 475.
Grilled Pizza
Thanks, and I definitely agree something is going on with Buddy's.  The Buddy's I bought last week looked just like the photo you posted and not like this http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg73872.html#msg73872 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg73872.html#msg73872), and the tastes and textures were quite diff too.  Like you said, still good, but like your Dad stated, not what it once was.  At least at the locations we have visited.  I guess a visit to the original location might be diff?  But I was going for as much of the Detroit Style of old with this as I could which now unfortunately is from memory.
Good Luck!
Hog
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: BEVSPIZZA on March 15, 2010, 03:05:22 PM
The cheese for Buddy's pizza is a special blend, there is only one wholesaler who carries it for them, they have the exclusive to sell it.  The wholesalers name is Dairy Fresh products, they are located in Allen Park, MI
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: dicepackage on March 15, 2010, 10:39:23 PM
I made the new version for lunch and it was the best of all the Buddy's clones I have attempted.  This one was by far the most manageable at 75% hydration and a welcome change from trying to knead a 96% hydration dough.  The dough finally turned out at the correct thickness.  I cooked it at 460 for 15 minutes.  It was a little burnt on top but the crust could have used another minute.  Next time I try this I am going to go with a 1.5 minute par-bake to try to compensate.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Grilled Pizza on March 18, 2010, 11:45:21 PM
Pizza Hog.  Do you run or own a pizza joint?   ???  If not, you should....
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on March 19, 2010, 12:37:48 PM
No, Grilled Pizza, just a home cook and pizza lover like many others but thank you!  My only "professional" experience was delivering pizza's in high school for Dino's if anyone remembers them  :-D.
Quote
It was a little burnt on top but the crust could have used another minute.
If this helps, I have found baking on the lowest oven rack gets everything done at the same time.  It also seems the pan I use which is 3" tall and thus much higher than the height of the dough may help keep some of the heat off the top.  Not positive though.

Getting to this point on this pizza was the result of everyone's input, research, suggestions and experiences.  Everything I ended up doing is in this thread somewhere which shows how great this forum and its moderators and members are.  So thanks again to all and pizzamkingdotcom!   


Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Grail Seeker on March 19, 2010, 12:53:36 PM
Hog,

I tried out the sharp white cheddar last night, turned out great, one of the best I've ever tasted!
I tried to attach a pic, but file is too large for here.

Thanks again for all the help.

Grail
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Grilled Pizza on March 21, 2010, 02:18:28 AM
I had a pizza disaster.  The dough did not rise and the cheese was burnt. 

Some person told me to mix the yeast with hot water.  (100 degrees).  Did not work on this pizza.  I had to throw it out. 

Looking on the bright side:  Hog....  You are right about the WHITE CHEATER.  Amazing cheese.  I did a blend of white cheater, mozzarella, provolone and Romano.  It was awesome!
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on March 21, 2010, 10:10:41 AM
I had a pizza disaster.  The dough did not rise and the cheese was burnt. 

Some person told me to mix the yeast with hot water.  (100 degrees).  Did not work on this pizza.  I had to throw it out.

GrilledPizza,

Did you actually measure the water temperature? If you used active dry yeast (ADY), the recommended rehydration temperature is around 105 degrees F, for about 10 minutes. Even if you used instant dry yeast (IDY), which doesn't require hydration, you should have been OK. ADY can tolerate a few degrees warmer water if it is not allowed to sit in the water for more than a few minutes. The higher the water temperature above about 105 degrees F, the greater the potential harm to the IDY. It will die at around 146 degrees F, usually in a pizza dough as it bakes in the oven.

Peter
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on March 21, 2010, 11:47:11 AM
Grail Seeker
Glad it worked and wish I could have seen some photos!
Bummer the pie did not come together Grilled Pizza, but that is what experiments are for and I have had a few of those for sure.  The white cheddars I have tried so far are very heat tolerant so am wondering if it might have been the mozz that burnt?  I have also used up to 95 degree water to rush things along with good results but never soaked the IDY first.
Every taster and guest has also raved about the white cheddar.  Whoda thunk!
Had pizza guests over last night and baked up a few more of these.  As is now customary, all guests bring some toppings of their choice.   Too harried get any photos last night but kept this leftover slice.  This was the last pie which has also become customary to be the "kitchen sink".  Every topping applied and this one was just over the top and could not quite contain it all.  Quite messy and non Detroitish but the correct crisp, texture and cheese crust were there although the extra few minutes I left it in the oven due to its mammoth weight was prob just one too long.
I'm starting to get a better feel for this dough and now am targeting a bit under 75%.  For me this is one teaspoon less of flour than previously posted but so far I like the results better.  Next will be using beer vs water as suggested by future_itisnow for a flavor boost and looking forward to tasting that.     


Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on March 21, 2010, 12:01:46 PM
Hog,

Maybe you have posted it before, but can you tell us the precise cheese blend you are using, in terms of the types and forms of the cheeses (e.g., shredded, grated, etc.) and the amounts of each used, either by volume or weight, for a particular size pizza? When I was experimenting with Papa Gino's clone pizzas, which use a blend of mozzarella cheese, white cheddar cheese and grated Romano cheese, I came to like that blend very much. I ended up using a sharp NY white cheddar cheese, which was one of the few white cheddar cheeses that I could find in my local supermarket at a reasonable price, and I found the sharpness to be to my liking. I actually liked my blend better than what PG uses.

Peter
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Grilled Pizza on March 21, 2010, 02:28:50 PM
Hi Peter,

I did not get the temp.  I brought the water to boil then removed it from the heat.  Then I mixed the yeast.  What I failed to mention was I had too much water and tried to boil some off after I mixed the yeast.  I am sure the temp was above 146 and this is what killed my pizza.  I should have just added more flour.  What was I thinking.   ???
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on March 21, 2010, 03:06:50 PM
Peter
So far I have used straight white cheddar and blend with mozz (low moisture part skim and whole).  All the Det style pizzerias have some diffs in their cheese/blends but they all share the white cheddar type flavor, or did in the past.  As far as cloning any of them, including Buddy's, I cannot say with any confidence since I only used Buddy's for controls and now that I am ready to work on the cheese, Buddy's has gone and made another change it seems.
One of my and my pizza buddies fond memories back when all these pies were single location entities was the cheese flavor and consistency.  When the pie was brought out piping hot and still sizzling, removing a slice too soon resulted in a cheese lahar and by the time one returned to remove a second slice, the hole from the first slice was filled in by melted flowing cheese.  The closest I have come to that ideal is to use pure cheddar on the edges as nothing else yet has caramelized correctly, then fill in the rest with a blend with the gooey-est mozz I can find.  Still working out the details but with a very sharp cheddar like the
Cabot extra sharp from Walmart the Det flavor still shines thru and the mozz helps get it flowing.
Cubed small and shredded from the typical hand grater we all have lying around both work OK although it is easier to pile the shreds on the edges and have it stay there.  Peter, you mentioned using your cuisinart to shred cheese.  Are you using the disk or just letting the blade have at it?  I would like to try your method to try and duplicate the type of shred your Buddy's photo showed.  I am thinking that may be a part of getting the cheese crust standing higher and closer to the ideal.
Thanks
Hog
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on March 21, 2010, 03:32:22 PM
Peter, you mentioned using your cuisinart to shred cheese.  Are you using the disk or just letting the blade have at it?

Hog,

I just use the metal blade that came with my Cuisinart food processor. That results in a diced cheese, not a shredded cheese. I do the dicing while the cheese is on the cool side, right out of the refrigerator.

Peter
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Grilled Pizza on March 21, 2010, 09:15:55 PM
I had to redeem myself after yesterday's pizza disaster.  I decided to make it a little thicker crust with a high hydration.  Also did a Crisco/Butter mixture with corn meal on the bottom of the pan.  Turned out great.  Now I can sleep at night.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on March 22, 2010, 06:03:27 PM
Whoa!  It may have taken you a few swings but you sure hit it outa the park with this one!
Grilled Pizza, that pie looks fantastic and so appetizing.  I'm lovin' that crumb and crust.  Well done! 
Hog
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Grilled Pizza on March 23, 2010, 06:37:56 PM
Thanks Hog.  I would have to say this was the best pizza I have eaten in years.  It tasted as good as it looks.  I added fresh Cilantro before the cheese and fresh Basil on top of all the toppings.  AHHHHH!  I don't live near MI, but I loved Buddy's when I was there.  This forum has brought back so many memories of great pizza.  I emailed Buddy's a few weeks ago to see if they would consider a franchise here in Colorado, but no word back from the owner.  If we we keep this forum going we might figure it out.

If you get a chance visit Speakeasy in Washington, MI.  Great pizza.  It's a hole in the wall, but good.  I worked there for awhile.  It is located on Van Dyke and West Road (between 26-27 mile road). 

Grilled
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: dicepackage on March 24, 2010, 11:53:16 PM
Each picture is actually a different pizza.  For all of these I used the 75% hydration ratio.  I also left these all overnight.  On the first pizza I used 1% yeast, 2nd .75% yeast, and the third .7%.  The first one was par-baked for one minute but the crust was still a little underdone.  The second pizza I par-baked for two minutes and still had a bit of an underdone crust.  The first two pizzas were cooked at 475 but my oven is a little off.  On the third pizza I upped the oven temperature ten degrees and skipped the par-bake.  The last pizza turned out amazing and is everything I ever wanted from this recipe.  This crust was as close to Buddy's as some of the other Detroit pizza places.

I wanted to wait until I got the crust right before I worried about the cheese.  I have been to Kroger, Farmer Jacks, and Meijer but couldn't find any white cheddar.  I have seen regular cheddar but no white.  I don't think there is any difference but I am kind of a stickler for details.  Where do you guys get your white cheddar from?  I'm sure Roselli's probably carries it but I have never bothered to look.  Also do you use mild or regular white cheddar?
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on March 25, 2010, 04:40:06 PM
Sweet dice, glad you found your sweet spot!
White and yellow cheddar seem quite diff to me and I don't think yellow will give you the Buddy's crust or flavor.
But you should be able to find "Boars Head Vermont" white cheddar at most any decent Italian market/deli, not in chunks but behind the counter.  Nino Salvaggio's has/had it on sale recently, Vince & Joe's carries it, and if Pete & Franks is still in business in your area I bet they would have it.
The new Walmart on Hall Rd & Romeo Plank sells "Cabot Extra Sharp" white cheddar in 2 pound blocks at half the price of Boars Head, but not sure if every Walmart carries it.  These are the only two I have tried so far but Nino's has a few more that might work in chunks that are around the same price as Boars Head.
I don't think Roselli's sells white cheddar, at least they did not display it in the refrig case the last time I was there.  But they sell lots of stuff they do not display although those items are usually only avail in large quantities, like 20 - 40 lbs at a crack.  I will ask next time I am there and if they have something that sounds good maybe we could hook up and split an order.  Plus, I have found at these larger quantities the prices tend to be really low.
In my limited experience I would say you are looking for sharp or extra sharp white cheddar.  Come to think of it, I believe every white cheddar I have looked at was at least labeled as sharp.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Grilled Pizza on March 25, 2010, 05:53:23 PM
Great work Dice.  Krogers will have it.  They are the same as King Soopers here in Colorado.  It is not located in the deli section, but where all the block cheese is located.  I asked the guy at first and he told me they do not carry White Cheddar.  Then I went to the cheese lady and she showed me where the block was.  Hope this helps. 

Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: dicepackage on March 26, 2010, 04:48:04 PM
The problem was that I was looking for mild white cheddar.  I went to the store and got a pound of Cabot Vermont Extra Sharp cheese for five dollars.  I tried it out today with a blend of half mozzarella and half cheddar.  I used all cheddar in one section and that tasted pretty good.  I was a little sceptical about it turning out well since when I think of cheddar cheese I think of the goldfish crackers.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on March 29, 2010, 02:35:59 PM
Baked up two more of these this weekend, except used beer (Killian's Irish Red is what I had in the fridge) for 75% of the formula water.  Interestingly, the biggest change was in the texture, which seemed moister but more dense although the crumb was quite open.  The baked dough was also less white, I assume from the red beer, and I was surprised that taste-wise the beer only added a subtle difference.  I should have done a side by side to be sure though.  Anyway it was quite good and got thumbs up from my tasters.
One non Det with pesto and pep on top, and one clone version.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: norma427 on March 29, 2010, 04:32:03 PM
Baked up two more of these this weekend, except used beer (Killian's Irish Red is what I had in the fridge) for 75% of the formula water.  Interestingly, the biggest change was in the texture, which seemed moister but more dense although the crumb was quite open.  The baked dough was also less white, I assume from the red beer, and I was surprised that taste-wise the beer only added a subtle difference.  I should have done a side by side to be sure though.  Anyway it was quite good and got thumbs up from my tasters.
One non Det with pesto and pep on top, and one clone version.

PizzaHog,

Your pies look delicious!  :)  Adding the beer as part of the formula water is interesting.  Both pies sound tasty. 

Norma
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Grilled Pizza on March 31, 2010, 12:36:20 AM
Nice pizza Hog!  I did beer once and had the same experience.  Makes it nice and moist and tasted great.  Buddy's or not, Pesto on top of the pie is awesome.  I think what makes a great Detroit style pizza is the crust, cheese on the bottom, and sauce on top.  Whatever else you put on it is style.

Also, I tried grilling this style pizza and it does not work.  I had to try.

Grilled
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on March 31, 2010, 08:25:13 PM
Quote
Also, I tried grilling this style pizza and it does not work.  I had to try.
Of course you had to try, it is your handle after all! 
Yes, I think I would eat sawdust if it had pesto on it.  The beer dough thing was pretty good too, might play around with that some more.
Hog
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Grilled Pizza on April 07, 2010, 10:27:37 PM
Do you think Buddy's uses semolina flour?  I read in some other posts that this is used in Sicilian pizza. 

Grilled
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: dicepackage on April 07, 2010, 11:50:22 PM
I kind of doubt it.  The pizza is always very white from what I can recall in Buddys dough.  Some of the other Detroit style pizza places I have been to have also had the very white looking dough.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: DeanoX on April 10, 2010, 01:28:27 AM
Hello everyone.

First off, I have to commend every poster in this thread.

Every picture and recipe, is great in their own right. Great work everyone, they all look Delicious!
Most of you could probably open pizza places, and make a living. Again, great work!

A little background on me first.

I grew up in Detroit, within walking distance of Shield's, and about a miles walk to the original Buddy's, on 7 and Conant.
My Mother tells me, that my first taste of Buddy's, was when I was 1 month old. I guess you could say I was weened on Buddy's pizza.  :-*

Every pizza I have, until this day, I compare to Buddy's pizza.
I Have been around the world, several times. I have even had pizza in Italy, the birth place of pizza I guess, but it does not compare to that sweet, not too thick, not to flat, square piece of heaven, that is Buddy's pizza, from Detroit.
Most all pizza I have had, has been good, but some should not even be called pizza.  >:D

In my early years, I was a professional cook, pizza maker, and head dishwasher, at many restaurants in Detroit, and beyond. I have made many, many attempts, at reproducing the original Buddy's pizza. All to no avail, close, but not the same.

Enough about me.

I had an Aunt, who worked at Buddy's, at the original Conant location, in the mid 70's, for a couple of summers. She had mentioned to me, and my family, on more than one occasion, some of the secrets of the Buddy's pizza, but not enough.

I remember that she had mentioned that there was cheese, in the dough. Not just in the crust, but in the actual preparation of the dough. "When the dough was made, a dry powdery cheese was added". Now I take that to mean that there was an addition of something dry, like Parmesan, being added to the dough, as it was mixed. Now do not take this as gospel, it is just what was I told. I was a kid, I was told lots of things.  ;D But I do, until this day, add Parmesan to my dough. It's good, and I do notice a difference in taste, when I do not add it.

Reading through the thread, there are some things that I know for a fact, that are true.
All Buddy's pizzas are made in seasoned, dark metal pans, and they are not washed. (just wiped clean between uses.)
Oil is bushed into the pans, before the dough is placed into the pans. ( I have seen it.)

What I do not know for fact, and I just remember being told.
The cheese is a mix of, brick, cheddar, provolone, and mozzarella.  Cubed, (cheese is used as the crust, pressed into the corners and sides, and spread into the pan lightly, as dough is placed into pan)
Oven temps, when they used pizza ovens, were high, 600+ degrees. But they now use conveyor, impinger type ovens.

I can not, to this day, reproduce it.

Luckily, I live only about 3 1/2 hours from the nearest Buddy's pizza. I frequent the store in Auburn Hill's, just off I-75, next to Oakland University.

The taste and texture does change, from location to location. But I assume that is because each location is not identical, like say a domino's or a pizza hut, where each location is an exact a reproduction of another kitchen.

More to come.

Thanks,
-Deano
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: DeanoX on April 10, 2010, 02:04:32 AM
Ok, I now I can not get this out my mind.

The original topic is, " "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's "

From what I know, have been to, and what I have tasted, all the "Detroit style" pizza's are all attempts at the original Buddy's pizza, each with their own twist. And that is fine, thanks to all, I appreciate it, more than you will ever know.

Buddy's beget, Shield's, Louie's, Savina's, Cloverleaf, Mike's around the corner, and a lot more. If you knew the true genealogy about each place, I am sure that somewhere, there is a tie to another place, that leads back to the original Buddy's somehow.

I am almost positive, that there have been cooks, waitresses, dish washers, delivery drivers, consumers, and more, that have crossed paths, amongst all the places in Detroit and beyond, that have produced similar, Detroit style, quality pizza.

The "Detroit style", of pizza, is quite unique. I have seen/had square pizza, deep dish, etc, in many places, but nothing compares.

Everyone on this forum, who has been trying to reproduce the original Buddy's or Shield's pizza, has one thing in common, they like it, they want it, and they want more of it.  :-D


Thanks,
-Deano

Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on April 10, 2010, 02:39:13 PM
Welcome DeanoX
Great memories.  I have read the history of this pizza more than a few times in the Det newspapers as they publish such a story every few years it seems.  If they are to be believed Buddy's did start it all and the direct links to most of the well known others have been documented.  Since joining the forum I have learned a lineage like this exists for many regional styles all over the country.  So even though we are left chasing the ghost of the "original" (whatever that is to each person) it is fun and the results are most tasty so it's all good.  Hope you post your recipes and methods too.

I have baked up a few more of these since last posting. 
One improvement has been to season the heck out of the pan.  Oiling it up and running it thru the oven over and over has really helped in removing these pies and their caramelized cheese crust.  Still doesn't quite pop out yet but now a quick and single run around the edge with a plastic spatula separates the pie from the pan.  The seasoned pan actually works way better than my non stick.  Another few thousand cycles should do it.  Plus less OO is necs to still get a good crisp bottom.  I plan to try and talk one of the pizzerias that use these pans to sell me a few.
Peter's Cuisinart method of dicing up the cheese, especially the stickyish, smeary white cheddar's I have been using, makes much easier and quicker work of this chore compared to hand grating or knife dicing.  It tends to stick together some after dicing but separates easily enough when applying to the pie.  The dice size also works out well.
Although it should not be a surprise, shortening the ferment time via higher yeast or temps is not such a good thing.  Texture is still fine and with IDY and same day there is not all that much flavor to be concerned with, but these can really lay heavy on the stomach with an accelerated rise.
I finally bought a scale so I could get more consistent and nail down the small adjustment in hydration necs to get these as right as I can, and to use on all my doughs.  Unfortunately, my fridge just went on the fritz and a day later I lost electricity to half my kitchen and adjacent room (inc stove and micro)!  Not a breaker issue, it looks like I have an open circuit somewhere that needs to be chased down.  Of course this all occurs while the wife is out of town during the busiest work week I have had this year and next week I am out of town all week for work.  Lost a bunch of food and pizza ingredients and am temp living out of a cooler.  So out of action for a while and no pizza for me unless I buy one.  At least I can still drool over the photos on the forum in the meantime.  Maybe this will give me chance to try a few of the local pizza's I have been meaning to but just never got around to.  Oh well... 
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Grilled Pizza on April 11, 2010, 06:17:02 PM
I kind of doubt it.  The pizza is always very white from what I can recall in Buddys dough.  Some of the other Detroit style pizza places I have been to have also had the very white looking dough.

I made pizza this weekend with 40% semolina flour.  Not even close to Buddy's.  Your right about the white flour, but I just had to try it.   
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: steve in FL on April 11, 2010, 08:08:49 PM
Here's a Buddy's pizza I picked up from the Warren location the other day..
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaNick on April 11, 2010, 10:02:37 PM
Wow!  Ive never had a Buddy's, or any detroit style, or even heard of them until seeing them here, but that pic reeeally makes me want one haha. 
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: jimmy33 on April 12, 2010, 10:30:01 PM
Pizza Hog
 Please help me with your 223 post . Measurements  and directions on how you make it . That Pizza looks phenomenal!!!!
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on April 13, 2010, 12:01:06 AM
Pizza Hog
 Please help me with your 223 post . Measurements  and directions on how you make it . That Pizza looks phenomenal!!!!
Thanks Jimmy, post 199.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=e2f8494ca4fa9c135c56a4ac2e002728&topic=3783.msg92963#msg92963 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=e2f8494ca4fa9c135c56a4ac2e002728&topic=3783.msg92963#msg92963)
Title: Cheese Blend Question!
Post by: Modegolf on April 26, 2010, 12:20:35 PM
Hello,

In this forum's opinion, what is the authentic blend of cheeses for a Buddy's/Detroit style pizza?

I think it's 50% Mozz /30% Brick (or White Cheddar) / 20% Provalone, but I am not sure.  I have read in this thread's instructions to put 100% Brick/White Cheddar on the edges to get a crispy cheese crust...and that is AWESOME! 

But I don't want to buy Provalone if I don't have to!

Thank you all!
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on April 26, 2010, 04:12:58 PM
Quote
In this forum's opinion, what is the authentic blend of cheeses for a Buddy's/Detroit style pizza?
Can only speak for myself and my tasters who feel it is the white cheddar flavor that makes this a Det pie and must shine through.  I can say that the sharp white cheddar is way more flavor intense than any mozz or prov I ever tried so your ratio at 30% cheddar might be right on as long as the cheddar flavor is still there.  Then again, a pure white cheddar pie is pretty dang good too and there is no reason to not end up at where YOU like it best.  We are still deciding that issue and eating lots of pies to help that along. 
You now have me thinking though that I never tried a blend on the edges.  Yup, even more pizza will now be necessary to test that.
Short story is I personally would not worry about skipping the 20% prov at this point since it is all about that cheddar anyway...
Please let us know what you try and how it worked out for you.
Good Luck!

Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: steel_baker on May 10, 2010, 10:28:03 PM
Well... being a western Pennsylvanian and having had Buddy's once (went out of my way to try it, enjoyed it), it is definitely about the cheddar. Very tangy, I initially thought that parmesan was involved but after using so much white cheddar myself in my sicilians, it's the cheddar, and that crispy cheese crust around the edges. That's unique to Detroit as far as I can see. I haven't seen it anywhere else but then what do I know?

steel_baker
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Grilled Pizza on May 18, 2010, 08:27:37 PM
I just got a membership at Restaurant Depot.  They just opened here in Denver, CO.  If anyone needs pans I am sure they have them.  I will quote you prices on Friday.  Also, I was told they have the sausage that Buddy's uses.  I will believe it when I see it!

Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Grilled Pizza on June 12, 2010, 12:54:36 PM
After a lot of trial and error, I think I have a pizza that is pretty good.  I don't know how close it is to Buddy's since I no longer live in Michigan, but it taste great.  Most of everything I learned was from this forum, so thank you everyone!  Give this pizza a try and let me know how it turns out.

Here is what I did.

Dough Formula:
•   Flour (100%):          318 g
•   Water (74%):          236 g
•   IDY (0.94%):          3.0 g
•   Salt (1.6%):          5.0 g

Ingredients:
•   Flour:          King Arthur Bread Flour
•   Salt:             Table Salt
•   Water:          Tap Water
•   Cheese:         White Cheddar & Mozzarella (50/50)
•   Fresh Herbs:      Anise, French Tarragon, Oregano, Garlic Chives
•   Oil:            Olive Oil
•   Grease:         Crisco
•   Sauce:         Stanislaus
•   Pepperoni:         Margherita Brand
•   Cornmeal:
•   Butter:
•   Minced Garlic:      
•   Mixer:          Kitchen Aid Mixer with dough hook
•   Pan:             9x13 Grey Steel Pan (Wish I had black)

Directions:
•   Dissolve salt in water
•   Add flour to salt and water mixture
•   Sprinkle IDY on top
•   Mix on lowest speed until incorporated.  Let dough rest for 2 minutes.  Then continue on this speed for 8 minutes
•   Let dough rest for 20 minutes
•   Using Crisco, grease the pan
•   Sprinkle Corn Meal of the bottom and all edges of the pan
•   Scrape dough into a greased pan
•   With oiled finger tips, spread dough in pizza pan
•   Cover and let rise for 3-4 hours
•   Pre-heat oven to 500 degrees
•   Pre-bake dough for 6 minutes at 500 degrees (I live at 6K feet, so you might not have to do this)
•   Spread butter/garlic mixture over the top of the pizza crust
•   Add a thin layer of sauce, pepperoni, cheese and sauce again (in rows)
•   Bake on bottom oven rack for 12-15 min at 5000
•   Remove and let cool

Pizza Sauce:
•   Mix water with Stanislaus Pizza sauce until the sauce can drip off the spoon
•   Add dices Anise, French Tarragon, Oregano and Garlic Chives to sauce mixture

Special Notes:
•   Only pure white cheddar should be used on the perimeter of the pan to create the all important caramelized cheese crust
•   Cheese in the middle of the pizza should be a blend of mozzarella and white cheddar (50/50)
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: steel_baker on June 12, 2010, 03:20:11 PM
I'm a baker of a another regional style of Sicilian that I bake in blue steel pans. I noticed that your pan appears to be steel. Is it? What kind is it and where did you get it from? It appears to have at least 2" high sides. Mine are only 1-1/8" high and using peanut oil with it, I have to be careful not to let the oil overflow the pans in the oven and smoke up the house. I'm looking for higher pans like the one in your picture.

Thanks,

steel_baker
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Grilled Pizza on June 14, 2010, 04:35:24 PM
Hi Steel Bake,

The pan I used is a cheap metal.  It's not the super strong steel pans, but it works.  It does have the 2" high sides.  I purchased it at Bed Bath and Beyond.  Also seen it at Ross.

If you go to ebay and type in Pizza Pan, there is a guy selling the black steel pans in lots of 5 for $50.  They even come with a tray so you can stack them.

What kind of Sicilian pizza do you make?  I am always open to try new styles.

Thanks,

Grilled
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: steel_baker on June 14, 2010, 11:00:01 PM
Here is a link to some posts in a different thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5656.msg95399.html#msg95399

This has pictures and techniques. It's basically a style of pan pizza that is unique to the northeastern PA area. Very tasty soft dough crust, with an unspiced & uncooked tomato & onion sauce, and a light topping of white cheddar cheese. It's baked (well.... fried) in a steel or cast iron pan with lots of peanut oil in a 475 oven. It browns up nicely, gets a crisp bottom and maintains a soft top.

I grew up with it and in all my travels across the country, I have never found anything else like it, so I learned to make it for myself.

steel_baker
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Grilled Pizza on June 25, 2010, 11:48:32 PM
Steel,

You have a nice blend of cheese and sauce.  Do you put the cheese on before the sauce?
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: steel_baker on June 27, 2010, 03:22:30 PM
Steel,

You have a nice blend of cheese and sauce.  Do you put the cheese on before the sauce?

No I still sauce it before putting on the cheese. The secret is not to use too much of either. I'm a big believer in "balance" in my cooking and so I try to get the right amount of sauce & cheese on without overwhelming the pizza with it.

steel_baker
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Grilled Pizza on June 28, 2010, 05:13:01 PM
Hi Seel,

I tried the 67% hydration.  Very nice.  It had the similar texture as the 75%, but the dough was so much easier to handle.  It was nice to be able to spread it out then place it into the pan.  Next I will need to try the peanut oil.

Grilled
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: steel_baker on June 28, 2010, 07:10:25 PM
I tried 75% once and it was just too difficult to handle. I had difficulties with both handling and sticking to the pans so I cut back to 65% and crept up from there 1% at a time. 67% seemed to be the point where I had a great balance in crust, moisture & lightness.

I also asked myself constantly, "how would the VP restaurant do it?" They had to have production since they were serving hundreds of trays a night so they couldn't afford to have a dough that was hard to handle since as you know, it requires several rises and spreading in the pan. Can't do that with a machine.

I vacationed in Colorado a few weeks ago and relatives there wanted me to make it for them since it's quite a delicacy for those who grew up in NE PA but now live elsewhere. I mixed up both a 1-1/2 cup & 4 cup batch of dough by hand, working with strange pans (no steel), and a strange oven. Amazingly enough, it turned out wonderful and they were amazed I had duplicated their beloved Victory Pig pizza. Now they know how to do it too. They have the recipe and they've seen me make it.

I love making it but with the hot summer weather, I'm going to need to start baking it on the grill. I use a Phoenix grill which is indirect heat so it's more like an oven. I can set a temp and bake just like in my kitchen oven. I haven't done it yet but probably 4th of July weekend will give me some time to mix dough & bake. Just bought some more pans, some smaller sizes so I can continue to make the small 1-1/2 cup batches by hand. Makes it easier to experiment with toppings, etc.

By all means though, try the peanut oil. A big part of this pizza is the mouth feel. The crispy bottom with the soft top is very unique and makes for a very satisfying experience.

steel_baker

Should be a good weekend.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Grilled Pizza on June 29, 2010, 12:15:30 AM
The 75% is hard to handle.  When I made the 67%, the dough felt like it did when I was at a pizza joint back in MI. 

That's awesome your relatives loved your pizza.  There is nothing better when someone says how great your pizza is.  What part of CO were you in?

Grilling pizza is fun and it taste great.  Right now I am trying to make a hybrid pizza between Sicilian and Grilled.  Haven't figured it out yet, but I am close.  Since my grill is a direct heat, I have to put the cheese on 1st and sauce 2nd.  Otherwise the cheese does not melt and the crust gets too hard.

I will definitely try the peanut oil.  I have been using Crisco and my crust does not have that golden brown and I trying for.  Check out the pictures on the other forum you sent me too.

Have a great 4th.

Grilled
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: steel_baker on June 29, 2010, 07:21:23 AM
We were in the Durango area. I was concerned about the impact altitude might have on the results but it turned out that it had little impact. I just used a little more flour for the same size pan and it turned out well.

Hope everyone has a great 4th.

steel_baker
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Grilled Pizza on July 20, 2010, 11:49:59 PM
My dad was at Buddy's in Warren today.  He spoke to the manager about the oil they use and the type of flour.

The oil is Canola.  The manager described the dough as a pastry flour.  (Not straight bread flour or all purpose).  I looked up pastry flour and it is a mix between All Purpose and Cake flour (50/50).  He told my dad that they use a heavy amount of Canola oil so it's like deep frying the dough.  This is how they get the crisp. 

Also, the pans they use are cast iron...


Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: steel_baker on August 22, 2010, 02:03:11 PM
Regarding pans, I believe that I've found the source for the pans that Buddy's uses. I make a style of sicilian pizza unique to NE PA and I've had Buddy's before well. They both use the same type pans so I've been looking for them myself for a long time.

The company that manufactures these pans is a few blocks from the Buddy's store in Livonia and is called PA Products. I've ordered a dozen of these pans for myself (that's the minimum quantity) and they're the real thing. I just washed them and will start seasoning them later today.

If you compare the pans in the pics posted earlier in this thread (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg62851.html#msg62851) with these pans from PA Products, Rectangular Blue Steel Pizza Pans (http://www.paprod.com/pans.html), you'll see that they're the same. These are excellent quality, they're 16 Gauge blue steel (iow, they're magic) so they're perfect for a quick hot bake that browns easily and they're inexpensive at $7.95 ea. I bought a dozen and had them shipped to my home in PA for $113. I believe that Buddy's uses the 12x17's for 8 square and 8x10's for 4 square.

If anyone wants to see better pics of them, I'll be glad to take a few and post them before they go into the oven for several hours of seasoning.

Just fyi, I've been looking for these pans for many years and have finally found them. I'm keeping the whole dozen for myself so I'll have good pizza pans for decades to come.

steel_baker

Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: steel_baker on August 22, 2010, 02:19:55 PM
Here's a pic

steel_baker

Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on August 22, 2010, 05:05:34 PM
If you compare the pans in the pics posted earlier in this thread (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg62851.html#msg62851) with these pans from PA Products, Rectangular Blue Steel Pizza Pans (http://www.paprod.com/pans.html), you'll see that they're the same. These are excellent quality, they're 16 Gauge blue steel (iow, they're magic) so they're perfect for a quick hot bake that browns easily and they're inexpensive at $7.95 ea. I bought a dozen and had them shipped to my home in PA for $113. I believe that Buddy's uses the 12x17's for 8 square and 8x10's for 4 square.

steel_baker,

As I noted at Reply 126 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg81436.html#msg81436, I was once told by Buddy's that the pan size for the four-square is 8" x 10" and 10" x 14" for the eight-square. The name P.A. Products came up before in this thread starting at Reply 130 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg82690.html#msg82690.

Peter
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: steel_baker on August 22, 2010, 05:20:40 PM
Sorry, Hadn't seen that before.

It just seems like people have been asking what kind of pans they're using elsewhere in the thread so I thought I'd found an answer?

steel_baker
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Grilled Pizza on August 28, 2010, 06:13:25 PM
Steel Baker,

Did you get a chance to make a pizza with your new pans?  How did it turn out?

Grilled
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: steel_baker on August 29, 2010, 10:49:50 AM
Steel Baker,

Did you get a chance to make a pizza with your new pans?  How did it turn out?

Grilled

Not yet, I've got 3 of them seasoned and ready to go though. Trying my hand at thin crust pizzas this weekend. Went to the countertop store and bought a 14x16x1-1/8 piece of soapstone last week. Heated it up to 520 yesterday and I've got 2-62% hydration 12oz doughballs in the fridge since yesterday morning. Gonna bake 2-12" pizzas late in the day on the stone.

This will also be a different sauce than my sicilians. I use just canned crushed tomatoes with finely chopped onions mixed in, uncooked on the sicilians. For the thin pies, I'll mix in some dried oregano & basil, a pinch of sugar with the uncooked crushed tomatoes, skip the onions and see how that comes out. I'll use the same cheeses mixture (50 mozz:50 white ched), spread a pinch of kosher salt on the skin before topping it.

Then bake for ?? mins at 500 on the stone, bottom rack. My oven has a window in the door so I'll be able to watch it carefully.

I like to make the sicilians when we have a crowd over because it's better made in large quantities than just for my wife & I. Maybe I'm cocky about them because every tray turns out consistently well and I want to be able to do that with thin crusts also. Anymore, when I make them, my friends and neighbors insist that I make enough for there to be leftovers to take home. It reheats extremely well.

steel_baker

Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: VICIII on September 09, 2010, 09:02:13 PM
Thanks guys!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ok nailed the crust and cheese!
The sauce is lacking that mellow sweet tomato flavor.
What do you guys use for sauce? 
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Grilled Pizza on September 10, 2010, 11:41:37 PM
Hi VICIII,

I use Stanislaus sauce, but the truth is it’s hard to find.  If you have Restaurant Depot near you, you can pick it up there.  All you need is a business license for anything and they will sell it to you.  If you don’t want to go through all the hassle, I like Hunt’s crushed tomatoes.
With Hunt’s you will need to add a little more sugar.  I use brown sugar.  Not sure why, but it taste better.  I always add a little Hunts tomato paste to keep the consistency nice.  Crushed tomatoes is very watery and I do not cook my sauce before putting it on the pizza.
With all my sauce I add salt, pepper, onion powder, Italian seasoning, hot sauce (Cholula is best, but Tobacco will do) and fresh Basil.   Rosemary is great too.  Personally, I like to add the Rosemary to the dough because it gives it a nice Focaccia taste. 

Proportions is hard to determine because it is so small and my scale only measures to the gram.

Give it a try and let me know.

Grilled
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: android on September 13, 2010, 06:47:58 PM
sorry if i missed it, but is the preferred fermentation method to just let it rise in the pan for 3-4 hours, or do you let it rise once in a bowl, then transfer to a pan and let rise again? thanks.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on September 13, 2010, 07:54:28 PM
sorry if i missed it, but is the preferred fermentation method to just let it rise in the pan for 3-4 hours, or do you let it rise once in a bowl, then transfer to a pan and let rise again? thanks.
Hey Android
Just one rise in the pan for me.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: android on September 13, 2010, 09:16:38 PM
awesome, thanks. can't wait to give this one a try!
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Grilled Pizza on September 15, 2010, 08:02:06 PM
In the pan only.  I tried the bowl and then put it in the pan.  Does not work.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: android on September 19, 2010, 11:31:48 AM
finally tried this last night. had to scale it down to an 8x10 as that's all i have in the house at the moment. it's a creuset enamelware pan, so it doesn't come out quite like it would with metal, but was still very tasty. i substituted all of the water with a combo of english mild ale and oatmeal stout, it was not super noticeable in the final pizza, but was definitely present. i put what i would consider a copious amount of EVOO in the pan and spread it out very well but still get the crust sticking to the pan in certain spots. any tips on a lube that releases better? thanks for all the hard work and research in this thread, it turns out a very tasty pizza.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: steel_baker on September 19, 2010, 11:49:13 AM
Peanut oil, much higher smoke point than EVOO to handle the higher temps of baking pizza.

steel_baker
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on September 19, 2010, 02:26:41 PM
Quote
any tips on a lube that releases better?
Hey Android
I've tried butter, OO, shortening, and "veg" oil (can't recall which) and all worked well enough.  Never tried peanut oil but sounds tasty too.
The lube part of the equation to prevent any sticking for me was to season the living daylights out of my steel pan.  Now I only use about a teaspoon or so of OO, get a crisp golden brown fry, and the pie slides right out with no sticking, except for the carmelized cheese on the edges which now releases easily just running a plastic spatula around the perimeter.  This seasoned pan is identical to the one steel baker posted earlier in this thread and works way better than my high dollar non stick.
If you cannot locate such a black/blue steel pan and would like some, no problem picking some up and shipping to you.  Just shoot me a PM.
I liked beer when I tried it too but think I prefer to drink it along with the pie more.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: steel_baker on September 19, 2010, 02:42:05 PM
Amazon.com sells the Paderno World Cuisine blue steel baking sheets (they're 1-1/8" high) in various sizes. Oil them up and they work extremely well. I actually prefer the peanut oil flavor over the OO flavor with Pizza. PO has a very light flavor and the flavor doesn't change with high heat like OO can sometimes. That's the difference that the higher smoke point makes.

But as always, YMMV.

steel_baker
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on September 19, 2010, 02:57:15 PM
Quote
I actually prefer the peanut oil flavor over the OO flavor with Pizza. PO has a very light flavor and the flavor doesn't change with high heat like OO can sometimes.
That's what I was thinking SB as I do like the flavor of peanut oil and will have to give that a try.  Lately I have been using pomace oil which is super mild to flavorless depending on brand.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: VICIII on September 29, 2010, 10:09:11 AM
Just got it Done...  It matches close enough for me..

Can't figure out how to post a pic??

Well I guess I did...
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: KingMob4313 on October 02, 2010, 05:30:17 PM
Finally the basics are all together so here is my recipe for Detroit Style Pie.
I attempted to incorporate as much of the info contained in this thread as possible.  Sort of trying to imagine how one of these pizzerias would pump out the dough and pies every day.  Whenever in doubt I referred to the KISS theory.  I also tried to use easily findable ingredients for everyone's convenience.  In the end this is a simple and forgiving dough but the devil was in the other details.
No scale, all measurements textbook method.

Flour (100%):    273.04 g  |  9.63 oz | 0.6 lbs               2C + 3 T
Water (75%):    204.78 g  |  7.22 oz | 0.45 lbs            ¾ C + 1 T + 2 ½ t
IDY (0.55%):    1.5 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.5 tsp | 0.17 tbsp      ½ t
Salt (1.5%):    4.1 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.73 tsp | 0.24 tbsp   ¾ t
Total (177.05%):   483.42 g | 17.05 oz | 1.07 lbs | TF = 0.1218

That's all I can think of for now.
Hog





I think I may have screwed something up.  At 2.20 C of flour and .845 C of water, my dough is not really soft, or really wet.  We'll see what happens.  I've moved away from the Big D out to Ottawa and the pizza is horrible here.

Thanks for all the research Pizza Hog, I'm gonna keep trying this until I no longer suck.. Since I can't get good pizza out here in Ottawa.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: KingMob4313 on October 02, 2010, 05:34:55 PM
My pizza didn't rise but I used bread machine yeast, which was my problem.  I'll have to play with the water amounts as well, mine was kinda dry and hard to work with.  I might try the recipe exactly as advertised but this time use the scale to make sure it's right. 

It's a great recipe, and a huge thanks to everyone who did the research for this.   Thanks for all the help,   

Also, I made a really great sauce with 6 ounces of Unico crushed tomatoes and 2 tsp bulk store Italian seasoning, 1/4 tsp each of black pepper, salt and red pepper flake done up in a spice grinder.  I'd say replace the salt with anchovy paste and you'd have something close to the Loui's sauce.

Pictures of my first partially failed pizza coming soon.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: witchy1 on October 16, 2010, 05:01:39 PM
I had to reply since i tried making PizzaHog's dough today. I don't have a large enough metal pan, so I split the dough in half and used 2 cast iron skillets as the pan and used peanut oil as the "lube". All I can say is WOW!!! Great pie and so light and crisp! This is definitely going in the "Keep" pile!


Andrea
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: steel_baker on October 16, 2010, 05:44:13 PM
Ya gotta love the peanut oil. Back home, the stores that make the same style of sicilian that I make mostly all use peanut oil. It's definitely a difference maker.

steel_baker
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: WallysPizza on November 14, 2010, 01:02:01 PM
Hi Everyone!

I'm going to try PizzaHog's recipe shortly but I have 12 x 17 pans, any recommendation on how to scale this recipe up to that pan size?

Once I get all my ingredients together and do a run through I'll post pics.

Thanks!
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: WallysPizza on November 14, 2010, 01:10:32 PM
NM! I found the TF in PizzaHog's last recipe post and used the dough calculator.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: GIBBY on December 10, 2010, 10:53:26 PM
With all the zigging and zagging that has occurred in this thread, I thought that it might be useful to pull together in one place what I believe we know about the Buddy’s style pizza based on information available at the Buddy’s website and from the posts of many of our members. In attempting this summary, I am aware that some of the information may no longer apply or may have been modified, as often happens in a non-static business environment. For example, at one time there was a link at the Buddy’s website to some very useful information on the Buddy’s pizzas, at http://www.buddyspizza.com/secret.htm. However, that link no longer appears at the Buddy’s website—or at least I have not been able to find it. It is hard to know what the disappearance of the above link from its one highly prominent position means (unless they are cheapening their product) but since it is hard to imagine that Buddy’s has dramatically changed the character of its pizzas, I will assume for now that the information at the abovereferenced link is still valid.

Members should feel free to add to the summary presented below or to correct or amplify on any point raised. Here is my summary:

1. Buddy’s uses a “premium grade” flour for its pizza dough, and, based on a recent exchange with Buddy’s, it is bromated (which is common for a Sicilian style dough). The only other dough ingredients are water, yeast and salt. There is no sugar in the dough and there is no oil in the dough per se, although, as noted below, there is oil that is used in shaping the dough and in the pans used to bake the pizzas.

2. According to Buddy’s, the dough is made daily, at each store location, and the dough is double kneaded and allowed to rise for 1 to 1 ½ hours, presumably in pans. Some time ago, after I inquired, I was told that double kneading entails removing the dough from the mixer, patting it out, stretching it, and then panning it. One member has reported (at Reply 95 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg73765.html#msg73765) that the dough making starts in the morning, for example, from about 8 AM to about 11 AM. That dough is then used during the course of the day to fill orders, with the dough made earliest in the morning (e.g., 8-9 AM) being used for the lunch business. Another member, at Reply 112 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg79248.html#msg79248, has reported that the dough in the pans is allowed to rise and is then punched down again. It was also reported, at Reply 97 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg73843.html#msg73843, that the dough is quite hard to press out. It has also been reported (at Reply 95 referenced above) that the water used to make the dough is ice cold and that the flour is also cold. That could account for some of the difficulty in pressing out the dough (a warm dough is much easier to work with). However, it is not clear whether the cold ingredients are used all of the time or only in the summer to achieve a relatively constant finished dough temperature when the stores are hotter than usual. Presumably, the pans of dough can be held in coolers to keep the dough from overfermenting/overproofing and removed and allowed to temper as needed to fill orders. If this is the method actually employed, it would not be unusual for different doughs to have different amounts of fermentation.  I have seen no evidence that the dough is held overnight (or longer) in coolers.

3. There are two basic pizza sizes for the Buddy’s pizzas, a “four square” and an “eight square”. In an exchange with Buddy’s, I was told that the pan size for the four-square is 8” x 10”, and 10” x 14” for the eight-square. The pans themselves are tapered and are made of steel. They are seasoned and are black in appearance (see http://msnbcmedia2.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/ArtAndPhoto-Fronts/COVER/080228/080228-pizza-vmed-3p.standard.jpg.) The pans are oiled before the dough is placed into the pans. Some workers also apparently use oil on their hands while shaping the dough before placing into the pans (Reply 99, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg73884.html#msg73884). I believe the oil is vegetable oil.

4. The Buddy’s cheese is a brick cheese blend made especially for Buddy’s by Kraft, in Wisconsin. It is said to be shredded by hand although from a photo of the cheese that I have seen, at http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/08Mf788bNv6xv/340x.jpg, the cheese blend looks more diced than shredded, or else the shred is a short shred. According to Buddy’s, almost one pound of the cheese blend (15 ounces) is used to make the eight-square pizza. If the amount of cheese blend used for the four-square pizza is used proportionately, I estimate that the amount of cheese blend for that pizza comes to about 8.57 ounces, or 0.1071428 ounces per square inch. In both cases, the cheese blend is distributed to the outer edges of the pizzas to crisp up during baking. The cheese blend is put on the pizzas before the sauce.

5. The sauce for the Buddy’s pizzas is a non-chunky sauce and, according to Buddy’s, is made with a “blend of Stanislaus premium tomato products”, along with a proprietary blend of spices and herbs. The sauce is put on the pizzas in dollops to form wide “strips” (see http://bp0.blogger.com/__XShj91sMpw/RlJCGZFbuCI/AAAAAAAAAk4/jIeRhr1ub-U/s1600-h/redwings_5.JPG).

6. The pepperoni used by Buddy’s on its pizzas is the Margherita brand. It is a coarse grind pepperoni that is sold under the designation “Coarse Grind Pepperoni”, #38616-31329 (Reply 79, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg69983.html#msg69983). The pepperoni slices are thicker than usual and have been described as being about the size of a quarter. According to Buddy’s, the pepperoni slices are placed under the cheese blend to prevent charring. Based on http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/08Mf788bNv6xv/340x.jpg, the four-square pepperoni pizza appears to have 20 pepperoni slices. Extrapolating to the larger size pan (the eight-square pan), a total of about 35 pepperoni slices seems possible.

7. The Buddy’s pizzas are said to be baked for 12 minutes in an infrared conveyor oven (see Reply 28 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg62915.html#msg62915). I believe the ovens are shown in the background at http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/images/2008/02/29/image3891595g.jpg (see also what appears to be an oil container and brush to the left and behind Mary Hellers, the Buddy’s worker). The only bake temperature I have noted—375 degrees F (and a 13-minute bake time)--is the one given in Reply 98 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg73872.html#msg73872. Buddy’s also sells so-called “Half-Baked” pizzas (http://www.buddyspizza.com/half-baked-instructions.pdf) and, for those pizzas, it recommends that they be baked at 375-400 degrees F. I have seen no evidence of any pre-baking of the crusts.

Despite what we feel we know about the Buddy’s pizzas, there is much we do not know. For example, we don’t know the precise ingredients and quantities of ingredients used by Buddy’s, and we don’t know how much dough is used to make a particular pizza. We would have to purchase a basic Buddy’s pizza, such as a cheese pizza, weigh it, and try to work backwards to arrive at a possible dough weight and thickness factor. I also believe that the use of a bromated flour is an important aspect of the Buddy’s dough, and that the dough preparation and management methods, including hydration values, are also critical to the success of the Buddy’s pizzas. I also think that concentrating on a room-temperature fermented dough, either alone or in conjunction with a period of cold storage (but mainly for dough management purposes rather than for better crust flavor), is a productive way to proceed. I do not believe that “double kneading” is as important as Buddy’s has led us to believe. Some form of stretch and fold, or a rest period in the mixer followed by a final few turns, or a simple punchdown after an initial rise in the pan, should, in my opinion, serve as reasonable substitutes for the Buddy’s double knead method.

Peter

  Pete-zza, very cool idea to combine all this info into one post. Tomorrow, 12/11/10, my wife and I are heading to Roselli's to restock on flour (bromated), sauce, yeast, spice pack and maybe some white cheddar. Since a previous post mentioned white cheddar, that got my taste buds memory bank going and that could possibly the missing link in the cheese blend search. Buddy's cheese always had a medium sharp bite to it-probably with a bit of mozz to tame it down. My sauce seems to be a bit thicker than Buddy's. I'm going to mix a full can of sauce with a full can of water. The lady told me to mix 1 can of sauce with a half can water but that may have been for a pie that gets its sauce spread with a spoon-like on a flat round pie. Buddy's sauce needs to almost pour off the spoon.  Side note*** My F.I.L. is now a bar/restuarant owner. Long story, but my pizza will probably be on the menu. The place has a double Blodgett oven so I'm waiting to try it out and see how the pies come out-maybe that low inside height will change the pies looks or taste. But the place won't be ready for a few more months. Lots of remodeling to do.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: GIBBY on December 11, 2010, 12:47:00 AM
I'm thinking that Buddy's being in the business of making a good product and making a big profit can't be messing around too much. The dough needs to be made early and be ready by the time the lunch crowd arrives. Everything has to be made in big batches and divided up for portion control. Any differences from one location to another probably stems from operators although my mom said that something as simple as humidity can wreak havoc on the dough rising properly. The Warren location is pretty consistant.

 Things we are sort of sure of:

 10X14 inch well seasoned steel pan that is never washed-just scraped clean and re-oiled.

 Oiled with either O.O., veg oil or canola oil.

 Bromated flour or bread/cake flour.

 Stanislus tomato sauce; heavy w/ basil, 7/11 or full red with very little seasoning added and thinned out

 Margherita brand coarse grind pepperoni. 4 slices of pep per slice of pie-32 slices for large 8 slice pie.

 Most likely a top secret Mozzarella/White Cheddar cheese blend that's near impossible to buy unless your Buddy's.

 15 ounces of cheese-although I found that depending on the day, that may be a bit much-sometimes it doesn't all melt.
 The cheddar might melt more thourougly.

 Dough on bottom then pepperoni then cheese then sauce on top. Pepperoni is put on bottom so it doesn't char.
 All other items placed on top.

 Orignal Buddy's used Blodgett ovens-newer locations use conveyer type ovens.

 Square pizzas are taken out of pan and served on round trays. (Weird, Huh?)

 **SIDE NOTE** Since this thread is mainly about Buddy's, I think I have their salad dressing real close.
    these proportions are what I use to make a batch.
    32 ounces of high quality red wine vinegar.
    16 ounces of veg oil. The label on Buddy's carry out bottle says they use soybean oil. Couldn't find it at my local Kroger.
    1 yellow onion- about the size of a cue ball or a little smaller, peeled, sliced.
    1 lemon. cut ends off and discard. Slice the rest thin.
    1 heaping teaspoon of preminced garlic from jar.
    1 teaspoon of ground peppercorn. I used a small electric coffee grinder.

    Add all ingredients in a jar or other container that can be shook well without it spilling.
   
    Shake well twice a day, then its ready in a week. When ready to use, strain through whatever you have.

    1 head of iceberg lettuce, 1 tomato sliced into 6 slices,1 handful of deli ham,1 salami and1 mozz cheese.
    Add a ladel of dressing -Enjoy!

                  GIBBY
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on December 11, 2010, 10:22:34 AM
GIBBY,

Good to see you back and posting again.

Since I tried to pull everything together in the post you quoted, and maybe even starting before, there have been some changes at Buddy's. For one, Buddy's made changes to its website and no longer talks about the double knead method or the Stanislaus tomatoes or the Wisconsin brick cheese. It's hard to know whether Buddy's is just trying to hide what it does or maybe they have changed the way they run their operations. Buddy's is also in the process of reporting their nutrition information, as noted at http://www.buddyspizza.com/nutrition.asp. It is very difficult to reconstruct a product just from Nutrition Facts, but maybe together with other things we believe to be true there is a chance that we can find a few other pieces of the puzzle.

Another change at Buddy's is that they appear to have gone to another cheese source. For example, if you look at the Buddy's menu, at http://www.buddyspizza.com/documents/WebsiteMenu7.2.10.pdf, at page 2, you will see the Foremost Farms logo off to the right. Foremost Farms is a large cheese cooperative that serves the foodservice industry. I was never able to find a Foremost cheese at the retail level, either under the Foremost name or another brand. If you look at some of the Foremost cheese blends, at http://www.foremostfarms.com/Commercial/Cheese/1950-127-Brand.php, you will note a few that contain cheddar cheese, however I am not sure whether the cheddar cheese in the blends is a white cheddar cheese. However, there is that possibility since Foremost does sell a white cheddar (see the last item in the list) and the page I cited talks about cheeses used to make the types of pizzas that some Greeks made in the Northeast. The cheeses for the Greek style pizzas, even to this day, use mostly white cheddar cheese, either alone or in blends.

A while back, through email exchanges with Buddy's, I confirmed that the flour is, in fact, bromated, as I had suspected. That change is reflected in the summary you quoted.

On a somewhat related matter, recently I have been working with a couple of our members, including PizzaHog of this thread, to reverse engineer and clone a Jet's square pizza. As you know, Jet's is big in Michigan. I learned that they make and use their dough mainly for same day use but with a one day holdover in the cooler for next day use if needed. They also use steel pans and conveyors. I noted other similarities to the Buddy's system, as well as some differences, but it is quite possible that Jet's was influenced by the Buddy's experience. If you are interested, or if you know something about the Jet's square pizzas that might help with our reverse engineering efforts, you might visit the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8247.0.html. You can read my analysis to date at Reply 26 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8247.msg118161.html#msg118161. There might be something in that post that jogs your memory on some other aspect of Buddy's operation.

BTW, soybean oil is sold as vegetable oil in supermarkets. I know that Kroger sells it because I have some, under the Kroger brand name. Vegetable oil these days is almost exclusively soybean oil although I have seen an occasional soybean oil blend sold as vegetable oil.

Peter
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: steel_baker on December 11, 2010, 10:45:59 AM

 Oiled with either O.O., veg oil or canola oil.

                  GIBBY

For a good tasting high smoke point oil for baking at the high temps a pizza oven uses try peanut oil. It doesn't burn or leave a bitter taste like some oils do at high temps.

steel_baker
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on December 11, 2010, 11:14:05 AM
Hey Gibby, been a while!
I think once you try the white cheddar your brain and taste buds will say Eureka!  Unfortunately, I have not been able to secure any from Roselli's.  Best I have found is at the Walmart on Hall road near Romeo Plank.  2 lb blocks of Cabot extra sharp white cheddar for less than $7.  Blend away or use it straight up for the full monte, it's all good.
But now that you are going "pro" (congrats!) you can access the big quantity items.  Roselli's told me they sell brick cheese to Cloverleaf and some other's that I can't recall in 40 lb blocks at around $2/lb.  I tried some brick off a 40lb block a while ago but not sure if it is the same brand that Roselli's carries.  I found it to be too mild after baking but it did blend well with the white cheddar.  From the taste and texture it was quite close to what Buddy's is using at the carry out only I tried a while back, but again, not the flavor we grew up with.  Somewhere out there is a stronger, more intense brick I bet that may have been the original cheese.  But if not, the white cheddar still has that zing and does not turn black on the edge.
As far as Buddy's messing around or differences between operators, something is going on.  
Buddy's as it should be IMHO (see photos) http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg73872.html#msg73872 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg73872.html#msg73872).
Close, but not it (see photos) http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg81715.html#msg81715 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg81715.html#msg81715).
This has been my experience as well but I shoud really try the Warren or original location again to compare.
Agree that 15oz of cheese is over the top and I have had my best results with Stanislaus.
What bromated flour are you using from Roselli's and how is that working out for you?  I have yet to try bromated on anything.
Good luck on your endevour and please post the F.I.L's bar once you get your pizza going.  I would definately like to be a customer.
Hog
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Grilled Pizza on December 23, 2010, 02:51:32 AM
I emailed Buddy's to see what kind of flour they use.  Said I had several allergies.  They responded back with a short answer that use wheat flour in their pizza's. 

I searched and found that Bromated Flour is wheat flour with potassium bromate (KBrO3 ) added to it.  Where can this type of flour be bought?

Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on January 01, 2011, 10:54:16 AM
I emailed Buddy's to see what kind of flour they use.  Said I had several allergies.  They responded back with a short answer that use wheat flour in their pizza's. 

I searched and found that Bromated Flour is wheat flour with potassium bromate (KBrO3 ) added to it.  Where can this type of flour be bought?
Hey GP
In my locale bromated flour is only avail at wholesale suppliers so maybe your Restaurant Depot membership will provide a source although I would not be surprised if it comes in 20 or 50 lb bags.  Pennmac and prob other internet suppliers sell repackaged bromated flour/s in 5 lb bags.  I personally have never seen a bromated flour that was not high gluten but not sure if that is universal or just my experience. 
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on January 01, 2011, 12:49:43 PM
I personally have never seen a bromated flour that was not high gluten but not sure if that is universal or just my experience. 

Hog,

That is just your experience. As you will see from http://www.gmiflour.com/gmflour/flour.aspx?type=Espring, there are some spring wheat flours that are not high-gluten flours as we generally know them (around 14% protein) but that have lower protein levels and are bromated. The protein levels can range from about 12.6% (e.g., the GM Superlative and Full Strength), which we tend to view as a bread flour, to as much as 13.6% (e.g., the GM Remarkable and Iron Duke). Because this latter group falls between what we think of as bread flour and high-gluten flour, the flours in this group are sometimes given their own name, like medium gluten flour or premium gluten flour. Winter wheat flours are usually not bromated and all-purpose flours are almost never bromated. I am not sure where the flour used by Buddy's falls in the above flour spectrum. However, we do know that it is bromated.

I gave you GM examples. Similar patterns exist at most of the big flour millers, like ConAgra, Bay State Milling, etc.

Peter
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: BigT on January 31, 2011, 04:34:06 PM
I tried making a pizza this weekend using PizzaHog's recipe from a few pages back and was a little disappointed. I have a scale so I calculated the ingredients correctly and mixed it in the kitchenaid for 8 minutes and then let it rest 20 minutes before transferring to a pan. The pan might be where my trouble started - I used a 9x13 grey cake pan (i.e. your standard calphalon baking pan). Also, I used active dry yeast instead of instant yeast b/c that is what I had on hand. I made sure to proof the yeast in warm water for a few minutes before adding it to the rest of the dry ingredients.

Here are the pitfalls of the pizza:

1) Dough did not rise. I let it sit out at room temp for about 4 hours and it really didn't rise much at all. It was probably about 1/8" thick when I put it in the oven. When I think of a Detroit-style, pizza, I think of a pizza with a fairly thick crust (1/2"+), so I knew I was in trouble right off the bat. Maybe I just needed a long rising time?

2) The outer crust did not fry up nicely nor get very crispy; there was almost no crunch to the bottom crust. I used extra virgin olive oil to line the pan, it sounded like people had good results with that. The outside of the dough just didn't get crispy though. Could this be a result of the pan I used and/or the oven not being hot enough?

3) I used white cheddar around the outside but it didn't crisp the same way the cheese does on Buddy's/Jet's pizzas. I put a fair amount of white cheddar around the edge of the pizza but instead of a delicate crispy cheese edge, I got a crunchy, almost burnt cheese edge. Maybe I was too heavy handed on the cheese around the outside?

If anyone has any thoughts, I would greatly appreciate it as I am craving some detroit-style pizza!
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: BigT on January 31, 2011, 06:01:16 PM
and one more question - how do you guys get your pies out of the pan?? maybe this is a function of my pie being so thin, but I could not think of anyway to get my pie out of the pan and still leave it in decent shape.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: jkb on February 04, 2011, 12:14:25 PM
BigT:

I make sure that the perimeter isn't sticking to the pan freeing it with a paring knife if necessary.  Then I use a fish spatula to lift one end until it clears the lip of the pan and slide the whole pie off the pan.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: dicepackage on February 04, 2011, 11:38:15 PM
With all this effort I'm wondering why I am the first one to just try one of their doughs at home.  I asked and was able to get a doughball used in a large pizza for four dollars.  It wasn't any kind of bargain but I figured if it could help me out with my home recipe for Buddy's I am all for it.  I meant to weigh the dough ball but in all my excitement I forgot, fortunately I got plenty of pictures.  The dough felt very wet, not as bad as when I made the dough with 90-some percent hydration but it could have been in the 80's.  I cooked the dough at 500 degrees for 16 minutes which was probably a little too long but it was still delicious.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: dicepackage on February 04, 2011, 11:41:02 PM
More pictures
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: timrich10 on February 05, 2011, 05:30:32 PM
Hello. This is my first post.
I am a pizza lover and Buddy's is one of my favorites. I live in Reno NV now but grew up in Detroit and have family there and so we visit often.
I was in Buddy's on 13 Mile and Van Dyke about 2 years or so ago. The place was very crowded.
 While waiting to be seated I saw a sign inside talking about Buddy's history and the older women who were cooks. Near that sign was another smaller sign that said the dough was made from a combination of rice, potatoe, and tapioca flour. The next time I went to Buddy's about a year ago that sign was gone. Does any one use or know if this combination of flours is used in any baking? I'm wondering if this is a hint to making their pizza dough. I scanned this thread and didn't see any mention of these flours. What daya think?
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: timrich10 on February 05, 2011, 07:23:28 PM
Got another question. Anyone ever try bacon grease on the bottom of pan to crisp the crust?
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: steel_baker on February 05, 2011, 07:39:32 PM
Got another question. Anyone ever try bacon grease on the bottom of pan to crisp the crust?

Whoah, too much sat fat there. If you want to crisp it up, you need a cooking oil with a high smokepoint. I use peanut oil, have for years. Haven't found anything better. High smoke point so it retains it's flavor and doesn't get bitter like OO does in a really hot (I bake pizza at 475) oven. Peanut oil has a nice flavor too.

steel_baker
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: pjbear05 on February 09, 2011, 06:39:08 PM
Hello gang, been a while.  I saw peanut oil mentioned for lubing your pans before putting in the dough, based on the higher smoke point, and something from my other cooking experiences kicked in.

Clarified butter.  Melt butter over low heat. Skim or spoon off the white semi solid matter floating on top (the milk solids) and discard.  Use the yellow clear middle layer for oiling pan.  Discard the bottm layer (sediment).

Continental cooking does a lot of high temp frying in clarified butter-weiner and Jager schnitzel arew prime examples.  The milk solids on top and sediment on the bottom lower the smoking point, which at higher temps will burn,  screwing up the look and taste of things (burnt and burnt).
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: steel_baker on February 09, 2011, 07:04:23 PM
It also helps if you're using the same pans as Buddy's. The blue steel pans from PA products in Livonia. I use them for my pizza with peanut oil. That is how a regionally famous pizza restaurant in northeastern PA has always done it so that's what I did in replicating that pizza. Same baking technique that I'm sure Buddy's uses, oiled blue steel pans at high temps. I use a 12x17 blue steel baking pan at 475 degrees with 2 oz of peanut oil. The pans cool off quickly after the pizza is removed and I just leave what little oil is left in the pan. Occasionally need to scrape a pan side but other than that, they're nearly completely non-stick now. My pizza crisps up nicely.

steel_baker
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on February 09, 2011, 08:00:57 PM
steel_baker,

I assume from your last post that you did not mean to say that Buddy's gets its blue steel pans from P.A. Products. According to a recent news item at http://www.freep.com/article/20110123/COL20/101230384/Shortage-of-steel-pans-has-Detroit-style-pizza-makers-scrambling, it appears that Buddy's may have been getting its pans from a source in West Virginia. When I called P.A. Products to learn more about their pans, I was abruptly informed that they were out of the blue steel pans. I tried, to no avail, to see if they would tell me if they made the pans for Buddy's or Jet's. They professed to have no idea as to the source of the Buddy's or Jet's pans.

Peter
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: steel_baker on February 09, 2011, 08:30:46 PM
steel_baker,

I assume from your last post that you did not mean to say that Buddy's gets its blue steel pans from P.A. Products. According to a recent news item at http://www.freep.com/article/20110123/COL20/101230384/Shortage-of-steel-pans-has-Detroit-style-pizza-makers-scrambling, it appears that Buddy's may have been getting its pans from a source in West Virginia. When I called P.A. Products to learn more about their pans, I was abruptly informed that they were out of the blue steel pans. I tried, to no avail, to see if they would tell me if they made the pans for Buddy's or Jet's. They professed to have no idea as to the source of the Buddy's or Jet's pans.

Peter

Actually, I did. I only assume that they have been using these pans as all 3 sizes of blue steel pans from PA products seem to line up with Buddy's pizza sizes & their proximity to Buddy's. That and the relative rarity of blue steel and the low price of PA's blue steel pans led me to believe that was the case. Buddy's is very similar to the pizza I make which is a replica of a regionally famous pizza restaurant in the area I grew up. That restaurant does use blue steel as I confirmed with the supply house they bought them from years ago. Regardless, having eaten Buddy's, I believe that their pizza is baked in blue steel (that and some of the pics with the woman carrying pans of spread & risen dough earlier in this thread).

I was not aware of any shortage of these pans. I ordered a dozen 12x17's for myself from PA products last year so I assumed nothing has changed. I guess I would have found when I tried to order some smaller pans (probably 8x10's) which I planned to do later this year.

My bad...

steel_baker
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on February 09, 2011, 11:49:20 PM
steel_baker,

As I noted in item 3 in Reply 126 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg81436/topicseen.html#msg81436, I was told by Buddy's that their two pan sizes are 8" x 10" and 10" x 14". When I first became aware of P.A. Products (from another thread), and later when I got involved in reverse-engineering the Jet's pizza, I did not see blue steel pans of those sizes at their website. Either that or I completely missed them, although I recall scouring their pan products very carefully. When I revisited the P.A. Products website tonight, I see that the two Buddy's pan sizes are shown, at http://www.paprod.com/pans.html. So, you may well be correct that P.A. Products is a supplier of the steel pans to Buddy's despite the impression that the sales rep at P.A. Products gave me that he didn't know who supplied the pans to Buddy's. I wonder whether P.A. Products added the Buddy's pan sizes after I researched their pan offerings. Unfortunately, they don't carry the pan sizes that Jet's uses.

Peter
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: gschwim on February 10, 2011, 12:21:28 AM
I'm a little puzzled about the idea of letting the dough rise in the pans - not at home, but at the actual Buddy's locations.  They must serve hundreds of pizzas a day.  So they make dough from 8:00 a.m. to 11:00 a.m., at which they have literally hundreds of pizza pans, in two sizes, not knowing which sizes people will order, that they stack all over the kitchen, all day?
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: steel_baker on February 10, 2011, 06:52:30 AM
I'm a little puzzled about the idea of letting the dough rise in the pans - not at home, but at the actual Buddy's locations.  They must serve hundreds of pizzas a day.  So they make dough from 8:00 a.m. to 11:00 a.m., at which they have literally hundreds of pizza pans, in two sizes, not knowing which sizes people will order, that they stack all over the kitchen, all day?

I doubt that they stack them. They use commercial proofers that the trays slide into. These proofers control temp & humidity and come in various sizes holding 60 trays at a time in the large sizes. I'm sure they make an educated guess on how many of each different size tray they need every day. When they need to make a tray, they pull it from the proofer and top it so they always have trays ready to top & bake. here are some commercial proofers: http://www.aaacommercialproducts.com/Commercial-Bread-Dough-Oven-Proofer.html

steel_baker
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Saturday Coffee on February 24, 2011, 03:28:37 PM
I worked at Shield's 16& VanDyke location in very briefly early 1980's.  I recall the dough being placed in the pans and pepperoni was immediately put on top, then the pans of dough were set aside to "proof" on an open shelf.  I guess if you ordered pizza without pepperoni, the kitchen staff would just pick them off as they started to make your pizza.


Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: SinoChef on February 25, 2011, 10:10:52 PM






To Grilled Pizza and VICIII


Hi VICIII,

I use Stanislaus sauce, but the truth is it's hard to find.  If you have Restaurant Depot near you, you can pick it up there.  All you need is a business license for anything and they will sell it to you.


Actually, if you have a favorite independently owned cafe/dinner/restaurant that you frequent, just ask to speak to the Chef or Kitchen Manager. Tell them your situation. Ask them to add a case of Stanislaus to their next order. Granted, it will be 6 #10 cans of product. But it should not run you over 30$. ( I think, I have not seen a price list in awhile). Also, do this when the restaurant is not full. 2:00 - 5:00 p.m. would be your best time.

Quote
If you don't want to go through all the hassle, I like Hunt's crushed tomatoes.
With Hunt's you will need to add a little more sugar.  I use brown sugar.  Not sure why, but it taste better.  I always add a little Hunts tomato paste to keep the consistency nice.  Crushed tomatoes is very watery and I do not cook my sauce before putting it on the pizza.
With all my sauce I add salt, pepper, onion powder, Italian seasoning, hot sauce (Cholula is best, but Tobacco will do) and fresh Basil.   Rosemary is great too.  Personally, I like to add the Rosemary to the dough because it gives it a nice Focaccia taste. 

Proportions is hard to determine because it is so small and my scale only measures to the gram.

Give it a try and let me know.

Grilled


When I have to use any thing but the "fresh pack" products,  like  the Hunts et al. I will make a gastric with balsamic vinegar to bend out the acidity from the added citric acid. The balsamic will bend out the straight sugar flavor with out enhancing the citric acid. Same thing your doing with the brown sugar,  but a lot more potent.

Its about 1 part sugar, to 2 parts vinegar.

So try 1/4 cup of sugar to a half a cup of Balsamic vinegar.  (Don't waste you money on good vinegar for this)

Melt the sugar in a small sauce pan dry on medium low. Make sure the bottom of the pan is evenly covered with sugar.The outside perimeter is going  to turn to  liquid and burn first. So have a spoon in hand (wood is good) and keep siring as best you can. Its OK if you can't get all the sugar to melt. When the sugar starts to caramelize, or turn color, add the vinegar. 

Make sure your not standing directly over the pan, it is going to hiss and spatter for a little bit. And be careful with caramelizing sugar, its going to be at about 380 F. It will stick to you like glue, and burn.

Let that simmer away for a couple minutes, try and get what ever bits of hard sugar that are left to dissolve. Put it a container you won't need for a couple weeks, and cool it in the fridge. It should be a syrup when it comes out.
 
Add it maybe 1/2 a teaspoon at a time to your sauce, till you get what your after.

If your sauce pan and spoon have chunks of rock hard sugar stuck to them, just fill the pan with water, and boil it for a few minutes
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: 3.14 Guy on March 11, 2011, 04:31:20 PM
My #1 problem, and I know is this: I wait until the last minute to decide to make pizza, and not thinking ahead from the last time I made pizza (usually a week before) I don't have any on-hand.  I'm an idiot, I know.

So here I am craving Detroit style pizza (again) on Friday during lent.  No pepperoni; I'm cool with that for tonight.

But I want to make a quick Detroit style dough so I decided to try Hog's recipe.  It's sitting in the pan now doing... well nothing.  I'm afraid I did something wrong and I haven't even gotten it dressed and into the oven yet.  Did I make this correctly (from reply #63)?  No sugar?  No oil?  I used the cold water method another poster stated, but I'm looking at this thing and getting worried.  I will make another "regualr" batch of dough for tonight (American style) so the kids will have something to eat.

As a side note, I live in St. Clair Shores, MI so I'm very well acquainted with Detroit style, Cloverleaf was my favorite.  HOWEVER, I finally got off my butt and went to Loui's at 9 and Dequindre - OH MAN, THAT'S THE STUFF!  So that is what I would ultimately b shotting for, a dough like that.

I worked at 3 different pizza places as a kid (2 independant and Little Caesar's before hot n nasty).  I wish I would have taken notes; I just can't perfect a dough recpie, although I've been close oh so many times.

Anyways, that's my story, I will post as to how this gooey stuff works out.  CHEERS!
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: 3.14 Guy on March 11, 2011, 08:00:30 PM
Epic fail  :'(  And I was SO looking for forward to Detroit style tonight.  Not sure how this was made to work for others, but no uh-uh.  No rise, in fact it SHRUNK!  I didn't know a product that had yeast could DO that.  Ay yi yi.

The regular pie should be good though. 
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on March 12, 2011, 09:33:57 AM
Quote
But I want to make a quick Detroit style dough so I decided to try Hog's recipe.  It's sitting in the pan now doing... well nothing.  I'm afraid I did something wrong and I haven't even gotten it dressed and into the oven yet.  Did I make this correctly (from reply #63)?  No sugar?  No oil?  I used the cold water method another poster stated, but I'm looking at this thing and getting worried.

Hey Guy
Reply #199 is actually the basic formula, #63 was just one of many experiments.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg92963.html#msg92963 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg92963.html#msg92963)
Yes, no oil or sugar.  But cold water will retard and extend the fermentation time.  For a gotta have it now pie, I use 100-105 degree water and up the IDY to 3/4 tsp then place the panned dough in the warmest spot in the house.  About 2 1/2 hours later, give or take, it is ready to bake for me.  Not as good as a longer fermentation but works well enough as an emergency dough.
If you decide to try it again, lowering the hydration some from #199 is an idea.  Others have posted they prefer this and I am tending to agree although I have not had the time to bake anything lately to experiment myself. 
Sorry your dough shrunk, not sure what may have caused that but hope you keep trying.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: gschwim on March 18, 2011, 10:29:26 PM
Just to keep everyone inspired, a nice photo of a small Buddy's pizza (from the Slice Web site).
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: gschwim on March 18, 2011, 10:33:07 PM
Louie's...
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: gschwim on March 22, 2011, 10:09:54 PM
Great photo of a Buddy's pizza (source:  Wikipedia)
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: balthisar on April 09, 2011, 05:55:07 PM
Wow! What an epic thread! From September 2006 through March 2011 -- I guess I make that April, now -- must be some type of record.

I joined just to post my first attempt. Pics forthcoming.

I'm trying to get something close to Cloverleaf, although I absolutely love Buddy's and Shields, but haven't tried Louie's. I do a lot of out-of-country time for my employer, and invariably the only pizzas available are those saltine cracker-like Neapolitan, brick oven pizzas. Sure, they're edible, but they're not Detroit style pizzas.

I'm now going to China for three years. It's time to learn the knowledge that will let me take the great taste and texture with me. With that, I'm excited to try this. So here's my version history up until now:

Last night (Friday):

I decide that I don't want to make 20 bad pizzas trying to get to the right one. On the other hand, flour is dirt cheap, and I don't need to make an entire pizza to get the bread right. So I decide that I'm going to just make the bread.

I use PizzaHog's formula from Post #199, by weight on my scale. I use Meijer AP flour, and a packet (not by weight) of Red Star IDY. I used ice water from the tap (since I imagine all of the restaurants use the same Detroit-sourced tap water as well).

I don't have a real square pizza pan at this point, so I decide to use my Lodge cast iron skillet. Yeah, that's round, 10" at the base, just shy of 12" at the rim.

After 15 minutes at 475°F, I have one excellent focaccia! The interior texture is exactly what I'm looking for, and the surface is nice and crunchy (since there were no toppings, of course). The base wasn't as brown and cruchy as I was looking for, but I'll chalk this up to the heavy cast iron that couldn't get very hot very fast.

(Not wanting to waste this gorgeous bread, I melted a couple of tablespoons of butter with some fresh, minced garlic, brushed the bread with it, and served it with a tiny bowl of EVOO with balsamic vinegar as a dip.)

Also I couldn't find white cheddar at Meijer, and I didn't want to drive to Walmart on a Friday evening. Some research indicates that the only reason regular cheddar is yellow is because a dye is added, and it doesn't affect the taste. So I'll run out tomorrow and get some cheddar regardless of the color.

Continued below, in order to avoid a huge wall-o-text.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: balthisar on April 09, 2011, 06:02:03 PM
Today (Saturday):
Today I an out to Roselli's to get some real pizza pans. The clerk gave me some care instructions which indicate that they're sourced from "Hillside Metal Ware Company" out of New Jersey. Maybe not the real real deal, but they look close enough. (I've passed by Roselli's at least 1000 times in my life, and it had never occurred to me to go in. I think I love this store in general!)

I started the seasoning process in the oven, but my wife couldn't stand the smell, so I finished on the gas grill.

My intention was just to make bread again, but in the new pans, and also to try a higher protein flour. So today I made the dough with 50/50 Meijer AP and Betty Crocker "better for bread" flour. Given how pleased I was with last night's bread, I hope I don't regret this, because I've also decided, "What the hell? Let's build a pizza!" Also I've upped the flour to 300 g because the surface area of my new pan is bigger than the Lodge's, and it's easier to do the ratios in my head with an even 300.

On the way back from Roselli's, then, I had to stop for the cheddar. It was easier to stop at Kroger on the way home rather than head up Groesbeck to Meijer. I found white Cheddar there! Pricey stuff.

When I get home, I look for the mozzarella that I'm going to mix. Damn, the freezer has sharp cheddar, mozzarella, and some Italian mix with a variety of cheeses. Now I decide I'm going to break the pizza up into quadrants. I'll line the edges halfway with the white cheddar, and the other half with the yellow. I'll do one quadrant the Italian mix, one of pure white cheddar, one of white mixed with mozzarella, and one with yellow mixed with mozzarella.

I prepare the toppings. I'm going to use pepperoni (some Italian-sounding brand), red- and white-onion (julienned), and green pepper (diced).

Dang it, forgot the sauce. I have some Contadina tomato sauce with Italian herbs. The ingredients aren't helpful: onion powder and herbs. A quick taste, and I throw in some garlic powder, thyme, and oregano. Not bad, kind of like Crazy Sauce. It'll do.

Oven is completely heated. Now I'll assembly the pizza, so that the oven can cruise at its temperature for a bit. I've chosen 450°F, convect roast. Because I have a convection oven, it has both convect bake and convect roast settings. For baking, only the element around the rear fan comes on. For roast, the upper element also comes on. That'll probably be important for browning. If it burns, maybe I'll try a combination next time.

Results:
Wow, that's a lot of grease. Pepperoni? Low quality cheeses? No matter, it looks delicious. I cut around the edge with a paring knife, and then what? I have a wide spatula, but when I tilt the pan, the toppings slide. Clearly that's not right. I have to get the pizza out of the pan so that the bottom won't get soggy. I end up slicing it into three, and taking out a section at a time, and moving to a cooling rack.

All in all, I'm not happy with the bread. I'm going to blame the switch to the bread flower. The rise was okay, but the grain structure wasn't anything like Friday's.

Also I probably didn't account for the surface area properly. PizzaHog's recipe for a 10x14 is good for 140 inches-squared. My 10" Lodge was only 78.5 inches squared, and my new pan, at about 8.25" by 12.25" comes to about 101 inches squared.

Because my wife loved the pizza, she's given me permission to try again tomorrow! So...

Next steps:

Friday's focaccia would probably be a bit too thick for a pizza, but yet I don't think I'd be happy with PizzaHog's 273 g of flour for my size of pan. So I think I'll still use 100% = 300 g of flour. I've also made a sponge (2:1 water to flour, plus the yeast). I'll let it wake up for a bit, then throw it in the fridge for the night.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on April 10, 2011, 08:56:45 AM
Welcome balthisar and nice pie!  Looks like all that is left is tweaking to your equipment and taste.
Some hopefully helpful info to aid you in your experiments:
The expanded dough calculator can quicky adjust formula's for pan shape and size and everything else.  Under "dough tools" link at the main page http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html).
For a less greasy pie the white cheddar (which oils off a lot) can be blended with a low fat mozz or something like it.  Peperoni can be degreased by layering slices between paper towels and nuking for 10-20 seconds.  The idea (credit to RN) is to keep the slices under 140 degrees.  Repeat as necessary.  A very well seasoned pan allows for a minimum of oil under the dough but I see you are already on this one.
At this hydration I find the dough is subject to compaction.  The weight of the toppings compresses the soft dough and it shrinks some during the bake so it is never as thick when done as it is when raw.
At least one local Costco (Hall Rd) has white cheddar less then $3.50/lb, and other than Walmart I have not found any at anywhere near this price.
My unconfirmable but considered reliable source indicates Cloverleaf uses a brick cheese that can be found at Roselli's, but only in 40lb blocks for about $2/lb.  I have tried it, found it freezes well, but is quite mild to me and lacks the zip of white cheddar.
No experience with convection ovens but in my conventional gas oven baking the pie on the lowest or second to lowest rack gets the bottom heat/fry right to achieve the crispy crust.
Looking forward to your continued experiments and posts, and thinking how you will prob have to do it all over again once you get to China!
Hog
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: balthisar on April 11, 2011, 08:27:16 PM
I've looked at the dough calculator in passing; I'll probably sit down and work my way through it sometime this week. There were some things that I didn't know the meaning of offhand. I just need to not look at it quickly!

I forgot to mention that for the first pie, my cheese combinations were something like this: for the pure cheddar perimeter, half of it was the sharp cheddar from Kroger (Kroger extra sharp, $8/24 oz at Kroger on Groesbeck), and the other half was white cheddar (Cabot extra sharp, $5/8 oz at the same store). After the 15 minute roast, they looked pretty much the same at the crust, i.e., the orange Kroger stuff wasn't distracting. And at the crust, they tasted pretty much the same.

The rest of that pie was divided into three pieces (not four after all): 1/4 pure white cheddar, 1/4 pure yellow, and 1/2 mixed 50:50 white cheddar with Sargento mozzarella. The yellow cheddar was too overwhelming, and the white cheddar was pretty good by itself. Being that they're both extra sharp, I guess I'll chalk up the difference to the Kroger stuff trying too hard. The best, though, was the 50:50 mix.

Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: balthisar on April 11, 2011, 08:40:02 PM
So last night's pie report... here I was really trying to go for the improved crust. I had leftover sauce and chopped veggies from Saturday, and so I tried to make the pizza more or less the same for comparison purposes. The cheese was different, though. I only had a little bit of shredded Kroger yellow cheddar left, and I didn't want to grate any more, so I used it to ring the perimeter. The leftover white cheddar got mixed with the leftover mozzarella, and that got mixed with a bag of Sargento Italian cheese mix. Like I said, I was concentrating on the bread!

On Saturday I made a really loose sponge with 2 parts water to 1 part AP flour with an envelope of instant yeast, and let it ferment for a couple of hours before putting it in the fridge for the night. The next day I made the dough with the sponge to the same 75% hydration, and let it proof in the oven for several hours while I enjoyed the warm day in my yard. Wow, it got one heck of a rise. As I waited for the oven to heat up, it sank quite a bit, and then a bit more as I added toppings.

For the cheese, this time I weighed it out. I figured about 300 g based on the suggestion of 15 oz for the larger, Buddy's pizza.

Into the oven, the yeast went absolutely friggin' nuts and I got a really impressive rise. Out of the oven and -- dang! I forgot the sauce. I cheated, heated it in the microwave, and spooned it on top.

For my second attempt, this was by far the most excellent pizza I've made in my life, bar none. I think, though, that targeting 300 g flour for my pan size was a tad too much, so I'm going to repeat it again twice: once using the calculator that you mentioned with the same proofing time, and again with the 300 g and the quick rise time I used on Saturday. And as long as I'm at it, I'm going to get the good pepperoni from Roselli's, and look for the cheaper white cheddar at Wallyworld on Hall. As for the mozzarella, it looked like Roselli's had some manageable sizes in their cooler, so I may pick up some there, too.


Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: timrich10 on April 19, 2011, 06:06:01 PM
Blue steel pizza pans back in stock. I ordered some pans from paprod (P.A. products) about 2 months ago and got a call from them yesterday telling me that my order is on its way. I also ordered some from Northern Pizza Equipment Inc. and got an email from them today saying my order has shipped. You can order online and use a credit card when ordering from Northern Pizza Equipment, they are located in Dexter, MI. To order from P.A products located in Livonia, MI. you have to call and use COD or send them payment.
I also found some pretty good pans at WalMart they are made by Onieda Commercial 9"X13" and 8"X8". These pans are nonstick but I've gotten good results,
thanks to Pizzahogs recipe. Like with most places I've had good and not as good pizzas at Buddy's, with Pizzahogs recipe I can get consistent results and the urge for Buddy's has lessened and the fact that I'm over 2000 miles away.  
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on April 19, 2011, 06:25:23 PM
timrich10,

Thanks for the update on P.A. Products and for telling us of the availability of blue steel rectangular pans from Northern Pizza Equipment. The link to the Northern site for the blue steel rectangular pans is http://yhst-14911471596624.stores.yahoo.net/bluesteelpans.html. The Northern 8"x 10" and 10" x 14" sizes are what Buddy's uses.

Peter
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: gschwim on April 24, 2011, 06:27:36 PM
Regarding the oil used to slick the pans, Canola, as someone reported, seems right.  It has a high smoke point and neutral flavor.  I suspect that a restaurant would be wary of using peanut oil, at least without some kind of warning sign, for fear of accidentally serving a customer with a peanut allergy.  My understanding is that the reaction can be quite severe and met a woman with a peanut allergy who told me that she did not even need to consume a peanut product to be affected, but merely to be in a room where peanut products, including vapors from hot peanut oil or eating from a plate on which a peanut oil-containing product had been, even if the plate had been washed.

Gene
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: tjkoko on April 25, 2011, 12:36:12 PM
 ... 2. Make sure your pans are seasoned. He says to use Crisco and bake 'em at 500 for about 15 minutes or so. I'm doing mine as I type this on the gas grill outside so I don't stink up the house. ...  

@Gibby:  The recommended temperature of 500F, is that the cooking temperature of the pizza or the seasoning temperature of the unseasoned pan?   ??? :chef:
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: steel_baker on April 25, 2011, 12:53:01 PM
Regarding the oil used to slick the pans, Canola, as someone reported, seems right.  It has a high smoke point and neutral flavor.  I suspect that a restaurant would be wary of using peanut oil, at least without some kind of warning sign, for fear of accidentally serving a customer with a peanut allergy.  My understanding is that the reaction can be quite severe and met a woman with a peanut allergy who told me that she did not even need to consume a peanut product to be affected, but merely to be in a room where peanut products, including vapors from hot peanut oil or eating from a plate on which a peanut oil-containing product had been, even if the plate had been washed.

Gene


All of the restaurants in NE PA that make the style of Sicilian pizza I make use peanut oil. It's also commonly used in restaurants for French Fries. Never heard anybody raise an issue about it with regard to peanut allergies. I suspect that anybody with peanut allergies knows enough to ask what kind of oil is being used.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on April 25, 2011, 04:39:19 PM
Regarding the oil used to slick the pans, Canola, as someone reported, seems right.  It has a high smoke point and neutral flavor.  I suspect that a restaurant would be wary of using peanut oil, at least without some kind of warning sign, for fear of accidentally serving a customer with a peanut allergy.

Gene,

Today I called the Auburn Hills Buddy's location and used steel_baker's reference to the peanut oil to see if I could at least rule out the peanut oil at Buddy's on the basis of allergic reactions. I ended up speaking with a manager, to whom I posed the allergy concern, and he said that they do not use peanut oil in their pans. I suggested that maybe other oils can pose similar allergic reactions and asked him what oil was in fact used in the pans. He said that it was vegetable oil, specifically, 85% soybean oil. He did not know whether any other oil was combined with the soybean oil as a blend. I believe that the 85% figure he mentioned refers to the fact that soybean oil constitutes 85% unsaturated fats, as noted, for example, at http://www.welch-holme-clark.com/soybean_oil_spec.html. Also, according to the smoke point chart at wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoke_point, a refined soybean oil has a smoke point of 460 degrees F. I read recently that the conveyor oven at Auburn Hills has a bake temperature of 495 degrees F. That is why I called the Auburn Hills location in the first place.

I might also note that Buddy's does use canola oil as a frying oil, as noted in Buddy's menu on page 1 at http://www.buddyspizza.com/documents/BuddysMenu.pdf. But not in their pizza pans.

Peter
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on April 25, 2011, 05:47:07 PM
Having spent a lot of time researching the Jet's Pizza operation over a period of several months, I couldn't help but notice a lot of similarities between their operation and Buddy's operations. Consider the following, starting with Jet's:

Jet's makes its dough fresh daily. According to this article at http://plymouth-mi.patch.com/articles/super-bowl-sunday-the-big-game-means-big-business-for-plymouth-pizzerias, a typical dough-making schedule for the square pizzas entails making the dough to be used for the day's pizzas about 3 hours prior to first service, which is typically the opening time of the store (e.g., make the dough at 9:00 AM for the noon lunch crowd when the doors open). The dough balls are put in pans, pressed out and allowed to rise. The flour used by Jet's is a proprietary blend that is bleached but not bromated. Based on information provided by another member, I estimate that the Jet's dough has a hydration of about 65%. Since Jet's has commercial coolers in its stores, the dough balls pressed into their pans can be held in the coolers and managed based on demand throughout the day. In some Jet's locations, unused dough balls at the end of the day can be held in the cooler for next day use. In other Jet's stores, apparently unused dough balls are discarded. The pans used for the Jet's pizzas appear to be blue steel pans designed especially for Jet's and supplied by an unnamed Michigan company. The oil used in the pans is corn oil. According to member boboo (Bob) at the Jet's thread (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8247.msg71152.html#msg71152), the Jet's square pizzas are typically baked in a Middleby Marshall conveyor oven for 8 minutes at 500 degrees F.

It wasn't until earlier today as I was researching the Buddy's oil issue that I came upon a forum at http://www.reddit.com/r/food/comments/gsbie/detroit_style_pizza_made_at_home/ in which a former worker at the Auburn Hills Buddy's store, by the forum name "lufty", reported the following about the way that the dough was made at the Auburn Hills location while he worked there and how the pizzas were otherwise prepared and baked (I have excerpted only the relevant portions):

Well, off the top of my head, here's what I can remember. Let me know if you have any further questions. It has been 3 years since I worked there (and 3 years since I ate Buddy's Pizza - I moved out of state), so I'm probably forgetting something. I worked at the Auburn Hills location before it was expanded/remodeled in 2008. I worked take out, made pizzas, salads, tended bar, waited tables, bussed, and hosted. I never worked the grill, dishwasher, or as a prep cook, but I did help prep pizza when we were running low in the evenings.

What kind of pans are you using? You don't wash those ever. They develop a film of deliciousness. They go in the conveyor belt oven at 495 degrees Farenheit for 11-12 minutes. Personally, I like it a little well done (for which its shoved back in or 2, maybe 3 more minutes. There is absolutely no corn meal in the crust, but yeast, flour, etc (not sure specifics) and mixed in the mornings in a giant mixer. The balls are weighed and placed in the pans loosely stretched and stacked up criss-cross to rise. A few hours later they are stretched out properly, using your thumb to press the corners into the pan a midway up the edge. A small pizza gets 1/2 a lb of brick cheese, NOT mozzarella (grated from a brick down to rough balls a little smaller than the kind that goes on the antipasta salad. The sauce is tomato paste, water, and seasoning whisked together ahead of time.


To the above, I would add that the flour used by Buddy's could well be a proprietary blend. What we do know is that it is a bromated flour. It is most likely bleached also. The hydration of the dough can be quite high since, according to the report excerpted above, the dough balls go into the metal pans. So there shouldn't be handling problems. The dough used in Buddy's stores is made fresh daily, starting in the morning, with first service starting at around 11:00AM weekdays or at noon on weekends. As noted in my last post, the oil in the pans is soybean oil. From media reports, the Buddy's pans are blue steel pans, most likely procured from P.A. Products or Northern Pizza Equipment, both of whom are Michigan companies. The pans sold by these companies are of the same dimensions as the pans used by Buddy's. As with Jet's, Buddy's must have commercial coolers, and I suspect that they use their coolers as does Jet's to manage their inventory in relation to expected orders, both by day and by hours in many cases.

Based on the above analysis and reconstruction, I estimate that both Jet's and Buddy's use a fair amount of yeast. That amount should allow the dough to rise sufficiently by the time it is to be used to make the first pizzas of the day yet be able to last throughout the day with proper dough management, and especially the way that the dough formed in the pans is stored in the coolers and removed based on expected orders throughout the day. I don't know what kind of yeast Buddy's uses but if I were to pick a value to use based on the above, I would start with 0.80% for ADY (which will need rehydrating) and about 0.60% for IDY. For hydration, I would perhaps start at around 70% for the Buddy's dough. More information would be needed in order to determine the amount of dough to use, but it does help to know that about a half-pound of cheese (brick cheese at the time lufty worked for Buddy's) is/was used for a small square Buddy's pizza. I would need baked pizza weights (e.g., for a small square pizza) in order to work backwards to get values of the various dough ingredients for test purposes.

Peter

Edit (1/22/13): As of this date there is no evidence that Buddy's uses coolers.

Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: gschwim on April 25, 2011, 07:58:31 PM
Pete,

As usual, your research is impeccable and above and beyond.  And now that my blue steel pans (from P.A. Products) arrive, just today, I am looking forward to putting everyone's contributions to my original question, to use.

The only (small) contribution I can make is regarding the "85% vegetable oil."  I don't know what's available around the country, but here in NYC, there are at least two brands of "85% vegetable oil" available.  The most common blend is 85% canola oil and 15% olive oil, the idea being to combine olive oil's flavor with canola's high smoke point.

Mazola also makes a canola-corn oil combo called Corn Plus!  (And no, I'm not excited, the exclamation point is part of the name.)  I haven't been able to find the exact percentages, but 85% canola to 15% corn oil sounds about right.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: tjkoko on April 26, 2011, 07:42:39 AM
...The crust to me is a standard sicilian baked in a black steel pan, nothing special in that regard except- there is a light layer of hard cheese (tastes like parmesan to me) baked on top of the crust. The baked crust is removed from the oven, the remaining "soft" cheese is added & then the sauce (tastes very marinara like to me) is put on top of the cheese, and the pizza is cut & served. It was obvious to me that the soft cheese & sauce had not been baked at all, no signs of burning or cooking in any way. The topping of the pizza with the fresh shredded cheese after it is baked is similar to the Ohio valley pizza style. This is a sicilian style that shows up a little bit in Pittsburgh and some of the eastern Ohio River communities. Dicarlos is one of the small Ohio Valley chains that does this and they top it with provolone after the crust comes out of the oven, then cut & serve. The crust is baked with the sauce on it first.

If I was trying to duplicate Buddy's pizza, here is how I would do it:

1. Prepare the Sicilian dough, place in well oiled pan and stretch, rise, stretch to fit pan, rise again.

2. Top the crust evenly with finely grated parmesan being extra careful to build up the sides slightly where the crust meets the pan to get the wispy "stand up" crust on the edges that every Buddy's pizza has.

3. Bake at 450 or hotter for 10-15 mins until the parmesan turns brown & crisp around the edges

4. Pull the baked crust & immediately top with shredded soft cheese & sauce, then cut & serve.

...
steel_baker

My mind is really in a spin here.  So this poster makes his sicilian without baking both the top layer of cheese and sauce!!!  The sauce therefore must already be preheated at the time it's poured onto the cheese layer.  
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Saturday Coffee on April 26, 2011, 11:18:35 AM
Sauce and cheese are baked in the oven on the pizza at Shield's (and I am sure at Buddy's too).                 

Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on April 26, 2011, 12:47:02 PM
Yesterday, I sent an email to Buddy's in which I expressed concern (1) about the long delay in their completion of their Nutrition page at http://www.buddyspizza.com/nutrition.asp (which has been idle for a long time) and (2) my personal concern, as one who is attentive to his diet, about the potentially high levels of fat, sodium and cholesterol in pizza cheeses and, in particular, the cheese(s) used by Buddy's to make their square pizzas. This morning, I received the following reply:

Peter,
 
Thank  you for taking the time to email us and for your inquiry.  We use Wisconsin Brick cheese for our pizza. 
We have alternatives available at all of our locations:  Fat Free Mozzarella & Lactose Free Veggie Soy Cheese.
We additionally are offering at our Farmington Hills location, a casein free cheese.
 
We are still working on our Nutrition page and it may take up to a year to complete.
 
Have a great day.


Given the completeness of the response, and particularly in pointing out all of the alternatives to the brick cheese for the square pizzas, I would think that Buddy's would have mentioned cheddar cheese or hard grated cheeses to the extent that they would be used in making their square pizzas. Cheddar, in particular, has higher fat levels than most pizza cheeses, including mozzarella cheese, so, given my expressed concern over fat levels, I think they would have mentioned cheddar cheese if it were used on their square pizzas. I might add that Buddy's uses a brick/cheddar cheese blend for its chicken fajita Specialty Pizza. They also offer a variety of cheese options for their sandwiches. My inquiry was limited to the square pizzas.

I have not had a chance to compare the fat, sodium and cholesterol levels of brick cheese. That is where the nutrition information would have been helpful in deciphering what Buddy's does.

On a related matter, our regular followers of this thread may recall that at one time Buddy's menu had a symbol indicating that a cheese supplier to Buddy's was Foremost Farms. That logo appeared in the 104/04/09 version of their menu at http://www.buddyspizza.com/documents/WebsiteMenu7.2.10.pdf. Today, I checked the latest Buddy's menu, designated 104/03/11, at http://www.buddyspizza.com/documents/BuddysMenu.pdf, and the Foremost Farms logo is no longer there. Of course, that does not mean that Buddy's is no longer being sourced by Foremost Farms but it does raise the possibility that they have changed suppliers. I suppose that it is also possible that Buddy's used something other than brick cheeses from Foremost before restating their use of brick cheese for their current square pizzas.

Peter
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on April 26, 2011, 03:16:53 PM
I took advantage of my recent exchange with Buddy's to inquire as to the source of the tomatoes for the sauce for their square pizzas. Originally, the Buddy's website mentioned that they were using Stanislaus tomatoes but, for some reason, that information no longer appeared at the new version of their website, which has been substantially revamped. In my followup email, I mentioned that I had hoped that they were still using the Stanislaus tomato products and that I had witnessed that other pizza places were using sauces with all kinds of chemicals in them, which I found distasteful. To allay my concerns about quality as I expressed them, I received the following reply:

We have not changed any of our core ingredients for sauces. Our website has changed to offer more information than we had before.

Peter
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Saturday Coffee on April 26, 2011, 04:05:39 PM
Do you know if Loui's Pizza have any nutrition information?
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on April 26, 2011, 04:34:59 PM
Do you know if Loui's Pizza have any nutrition information?

Saturday Coffee,

Places like Loui's (http://louispizza.net/) with only a single location almost never have nutrition information. It would even be unusual for a place like Buddy's, with only nine locations (I think a few of them are takeout only), to offer nutrition information on their pizzas. These days, most nutrition information is put together using specialized software. There is greater pressure on the big, high profile chains to offer nutrition information, although not all of them (e.g., Sbarro) do.

Peter
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: tjkoko on April 27, 2011, 07:19:50 AM
Dice
...No prebake, just pile everything on and into the oven.  Remember my formula is without a scale at this point so my hydration % is prob off a bit.  Having said that, pick a number between 70 and 75% and you should be in the ballpark.  At "my" 70% 15 mins at 450 baked up right, and at 75% 15 mins at 475....
Good Luck!
Hog


Hmmmm, increased hydration = increased baking time (no prebake).  Good rule of thumb (or index finger pointed upwards  :-\).
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: tjkoko on April 27, 2011, 07:26:55 AM
Hello everyone.

First off, I have to commend every poster in this thread....
I Have been around the world, several times. I have even had pizza in Italy, the birth place of pizza I guess, but it does not compare to that sweet, not too thick, not to flat, square piece of heaven, that is Buddy's pizza, from Detroit.
Most all pizza I have had, has been good, but some should not even be called pizza.  >:D
...
Thanks,
-Deano


Actually a documentary on tv stated that pizza's birthplace is the middle east with their unleavened (???) flatbread topped with veggies, cheese and perhaps meat.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: tjkoko on April 27, 2011, 07:41:41 AM
Hi VICIII,

I use Stanislaus sauce, but the truth is it’s hard to find.  If you have Restaurant Depot near you, you can pick it up there.  All you need is a business license for anything and they will sell it to you.  If you don’t want to go through all the hassle, I like Hunt’s crushed tomatoes.
With Hunt’s you will need to add a little more sugar.  I use brown sugar.  Not sure why, but it taste better.  I always add a little Hunts tomato paste to keep the consistency nice.  Crushed tomatoes is very watery and I do not cook my sauce before putting it on the pizza....

You add brown sugar to Hunt's crushed tomatoes because it tastes better.  Perhaps it's because brown sugar has molasses added to it!
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on April 29, 2011, 10:53:28 AM
For those who are interested, I believe I have solved the mystery as to who is the supplier of the blue steel pans to Buddy's (and others who sell the Detroit square pan pizzas). See the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13687.msg137011.html#msg137011.

Peter
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: gschwim on April 29, 2011, 07:53:36 PM
I received, only days ago, my blue steel pans from P.A. Products - one 8" x 10", one 10" x 14", so I can confirm that they will sell individual pans.  And yes, they are "folded corner" pans.  The corners are fold and then the edges are wrapped around a thick rectangular wire to give the pan rigidity.

Which is great, especially for commercial operations, as the pans are strong, but cheap.  Total cost of both pans, about $18.  I think that included shipping (to NYC), but if it didn't, the shipping couldn't have cost much.

It was also obvious that, as someone pointed out, the pans are actually intended to be used as parts bins.  Whoever thought of using them for cooking was very smart as a pan manufactured and marketed for cooking certainly would cost more.

Gene
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on May 01, 2011, 12:31:13 PM
Hey Gene
Glad to see ya back and in the thread you started us all off on!
Question please.  Are the pans you received the same as these, with the wire exposed on the corners?
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg107574.html#msg107574 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg107574.html#msg107574)
Looking forward to your posts when you bake one of these up.
Hog
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on May 01, 2011, 01:00:25 PM
Hog,

I will also be interested in the answer also since I was told that the Dover Parkersburg blue steel pans such as shown at http://www.doverparkersburg.com/products/utility_items.html are the same as the ones at P.A. Products. I even went so far as to blow up the photo of Mary holding the pans at http://msnbcmedia2.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/ArtAndPhoto-Fronts/COVER/080228/080228-pizza-vmed-3p.grid-4x2.jpg by 400% to see if I could spot the wire at the front right corner of the pan in her right hand. I couldn't tell if I was seeing a wire or a light reflection.

Peter
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: gschwim on May 01, 2011, 01:46:52 PM
Pete,

For what it's worth - and with my own, just-purchased pans for reference - I definitely see a wire, with some daylight poking through the opening, on the farthest lower-left corner of the photo.  I also, where the light is poking through, can see the thinness of the metal walls and finally, I clearly see "folds" on all the two foremost corners in the photo and would assume that where there are folds, there is wire.  For all I can tell, these are the exact, or at least the exact same type of, pan that I have.

Hog,

Yes, they are the same, or at least they look the same.

Gene
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Saturday Coffee on May 01, 2011, 02:28:25 PM
Pete,

For what it's worth - and with my own, just-purchased pans for reference - I definitely see a wire, with some daylight poking through the opening, on the farthest lower-left corner of the photo.  I also, where the light is poking through, can see the thinness of the metal walls and finally, I clearly see "folds" on all the two foremost corners in the photo and would assume that where there are folds, there is wire.  For all I can tell, these are the exact, or at least the exact same type of, pan that I have.

Hog,

Yes, they are the same, or at least they look the same.

Gene


My pan is exactly the same (or a clone) with the wire and folds.  It was purchased for me at Roselli's on the East Side (Detroit suburbs) somewhere, maybe in Roseville.






Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: timrich10 on May 13, 2011, 11:12:49 PM
Heres my latest Buddy's replica. Included a pic of some basic ingredients and a pan I found at Wal-Mart.

Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: gschwim on May 13, 2011, 11:49:32 PM
That looks really good.  What recipe, including baking time and temperature, did you use?  What kind of cheese is the Tillamook?
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: timrich10 on May 14, 2011, 12:38:51 AM
Thanks Gschwim,
I'm using Pizzahogs recipe from post 199 of this topic for the basics, add water until it looks right, a very tacky dough. I bake at 475 degrees for 5 minutes on lowest rack and about 8-10 mins. on middle till done. Tillamook cheese is medium white cheddar. Family say it tastes as good as it looks. Makes me feel as though I'm doing something right as we are from Detroit.

Tim
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on May 15, 2011, 01:22:07 PM
Picture perfect pie Tim!
I can't make out the brand on the pepperoni stick in your photo, but it kinda looks like one of a larger diameter I have seen locally but never tried.  If you wouldn't mind, what brand was it and did you like it?
Well done,
Hog
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: timrich10 on May 15, 2011, 08:59:00 PM
Pepperoni is Molinari & Sons in San Francisco. It is large diameter 2 1/2". Taste is good, more flavor than the store packaged brands but not like Buddy's. When I use it in my pizza you can tell it's there, spicy and more pronounced than Buddy's pepperoni. I call it my Buddy's variant. I like it as a snack with crackers

Tim
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: balthisar on May 30, 2011, 09:01:48 PM
Heres my latest Buddy's replica. Included a pic of some basic ingredients and a pan I found at Wal-Mart.
That is an excellent looking pie!

I'm looking into cheese-making now. Since my earlier posts, I've made my pre-trip to China, and the cheese isn't looking good. So, two new skills to take with me.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Clive At Five on May 31, 2011, 09:06:49 AM
I tried making this pie this weekend and have a couple take-away questions...

First of all, the sticking cheese was a major issue. I used a CM Bakalon pan (non-stick, annodized aluminum) and I even lubed with a light layer of crisco... yet, it was near impossible to get off. I had to soak the pan for several hours... So How much Crisco do y'all use? Seeing as there was a puddle of grease atop the pizza already (hey, not totally complaining ;) ) I'm hesitant to use more, but I will if I have to. I'm also wondering if I cooked it for a bit too long...

Secondly, pure sharp white cheddar was a little too tangy for my tastes. I understand the white cheddar is a requirement for the golden brown edge, but what's the opinion on using a 50/50 white cheddar / motz blend? I don't want the edge to get too dark.

Third, a piece of advice... coming from experimenting with the PH clone, it was hard to use so little oil. For those tempted to use more, DON'T! The bottom of my crust was actually a bit under-crispy due to too much oil. Combined with the grease from the cheese, there will be plenty of crisping-liquid in the pan!

Thanks for your feedback. Pics next time, I promise.

-Clive
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on June 11, 2011, 11:47:41 AM
Hey Clive
The only fix for the cheese welding itself to the pan I have found is to use a super well seasoned non stick pan, same as the pizzaria's famous for these pies do, and of course never wash them once they are coated.  To get the sides seasoned, I ran the pan upside down thru the oven a bunch so the oil would run "down" the sides.  Made quite a mess and stunk up the house before I figured out I needed some foil below to catch any drip off.  Doh!  An employee at a Buddy's carry out location told me they oil up and run new pans thru the ovens continually for a week before their first use, and I believe it.  I too have tried my high dollar non stick pans and had the same result as you.  In a pinch, I have used a 30 year old cast iron frying pan for these and that worked suprisingly well.   
Yes, pure white cheddar oils off a ton, and I frequently blend it with mozz or whatever.  You can still use just the cheddar on the very outer edge and throw the rest of the blend in the center, or just mix it together and have at it.  The edge is still mostly golden for me this way although there are some black specks thrown in.  Guess it depends on the mozz so see what you prefer.
Agree the amount of oil in the pan is important.  Now that my pans are so well seasoned it takes very little oil to get a good fried crisp going with the bottom not being greasy, and the crisco step is no longer necessary. 
Hog   
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Clive At Five on June 12, 2011, 01:02:57 AM
Thanks for the feedback on the seasoned pans! I've been working on building up a nice coat on my deep dish rounds, so I will do the same for my Sicilian as well! I generally like the flavor it gives anyway!

As for technique, I've just been baking at 400 deg F, brushing the sides every ten minutes. Sufficient, you think?

-Clive
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on June 12, 2011, 09:25:33 AM
As for technique, I've just been baking at 400 deg F, brushing the sides every ten minutes. Sufficient, you think?
-Clive

Should be, and as I recall that is pretty much what I did, with a higher temp cycle and the upside down thing thrown in every now and then.  Once it looks like it is about 30 years old you should be good to go!
Hog
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: longcommutes on June 24, 2011, 10:19:42 PM
To PizzaHog and all the others who contributed to the reverse engineering of the Detroit Style pizza I want to give you a HUGE Thumbs up and a big Thank You. My pizzas using the recipe listed on post 199 have passed the taste test of several picky Detroiters (my parents) that grew up on this style of pizza.  They liked my pies soo much they said they no longer have to bring any back when they visits Detroit because they can now simply just come to my house.  

Background:  I grew up in Warren (11 mile between Hoover and Schoenherr) and went away to college in 1987 and have only been back to Michigan a handful of times since then.  However, every time I did/do get back to the Detroit area I have to get my fix of Detroit style pizza at either Loui's or Buddy's (Loui's is my favorite).  Unfortunately out here in San Diego, California no one makes Detroit Style and now that my parents are out here in CA, I rarely get back to Detroit (which means very long periods between my Detroit pizza experiences).  My wife finally got sick of me complaining about how much I miss Detroit Style pizza that she said why don't you see if you can find a recipe on the internet.  So I found this site over a year ago and have been checking in on its progress.  I knew the pans would be key and I finally received my pans a couple of weeks ago and have been patiently seasoning them.  

Here are pictures of my first pie.  (I used a bit more sauce and New Zealand White Cheddar from Trader Joe's).  I did cook it for an extra 5 minutes at 475 since I put double the sauce on top (which was a bit too much but the 6 oz just looked too skimpy) and like a crispier crust.  Everyone loved it and now I can get my Detroit pizza fix anytime I want.  My next goal is to fool around and attempt a whole grain version since I have gotten into to grinding my own grain.  

Thanks again for all the hard work on this thread,
Mike

  
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: tjkoko on June 24, 2011, 10:26:19 PM
GooD STUFF!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Saturday Coffee on June 25, 2011, 09:48:42 PM
Every time I see this thread pop as unread I become homesick for a fix of Loui's or Buddy's. If I could see in to the kitchen of any pizzeria and watch pizzas being made I would like to see Louis Tourtois of Loui's make me a pie.  He's 75 now, think he is still making pies himself? 

I am planning a short 2 or 3 day trip to Detroit in late July early August.  I'll have at least 5 opportunities to dine out.  I was kind of thinking.... ...maybe something Middle Eastern around Michigan Avenue in Dearborn and another PIZZA. 

1. Loui's - Hazel Park
2. Bet & Jessie's Fish & Chips - Redford (I can't believe this place is still here)
3. Apollo Coney Island - Riverland Drive & Van Dyke in Sterling Heights (Best Shish Kebob sandwiches & chili fries anywhere)
4.
5.

Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: shuboyje on June 25, 2011, 11:06:20 PM
Top pizza places around in my humble opinion are:

1. Fresco in Rochester - they do americanized neapolitan pizza very well. 
2. Pizzeria Biga in Southfield - another americanized neapolitan place.
3. Supino in the Eastern Market - Super thin artisan pies, some tend to be a bit bland but the ones that aren't(like the pepperoni) are great.
4. Tivoli's at Van Dyke and M-59 - They do like 5 different type of pizzas, but the stuff out of their wood fired oven is very good.  It's hard to put a label on the style other than maybe a misguided neapolitan but who cares if the result tastes good. 

Of course if you are looking for a thicker detroit style pie Nikki's in greek town is a classic.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Saturday Coffee on June 26, 2011, 12:10:10 AM

ADDING THESE TO MY LIST,
Supino in the Eastern Market - Super thin artisan pies, some tend to be a bit bland but the ones that aren't(like the pepperoni) are great.
Its been over 20 years since Ive been to the Eastern Market....this should be a treat

Tivoli's at Van Dyke and M-59 - They do like 5 different type of pizzas, but the stuff out of their wood fired oven is very good.  It's hard to put a label on the style other than maybe a misguided neapolitan but who cares if the result tastes good. 
This is very near where I will be staying - so it will make it convenient.

Thanks for the advice. 

Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: sspiek on June 27, 2011, 04:58:49 PM

Flour (100%):    273.04 g  |  9.63 oz | 0.6 lbs               2C + 3 T
Water (75%):    204.78 g  |  7.22 oz | 0.45 lbs            ¾ C + 1 T + 2 ½ t
IDY (0.55%):    1.5 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.5 tsp | 0.17 tbsp      ½ t
Salt (1.5%):    4.1 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.73 tsp | 0.24 tbsp   ¾ t
Total (177.05%):   483.42 g | 17.05 oz | 1.07 lbs | TF = 0.1218

PizzaHog, do you have the recipe for the small pan pizza's as well and the recommended pan size?
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: longcommutes on June 28, 2011, 12:12:52 AM
sspiek,

The small square pan is an 8X10 and PizzaHog's recipe is for the 10X14 pan.  To make the 8X10 recipe simply multiple the ingredient amounts by about 0.57 and you will be good to go.  That is what I did and the pie came out just like the large one did.  I followed the recipe by weight except for the yeast and salt since my scale is not sensitive at the lower weights.

So the amounts would be.

Flour  (156.02g) / 5.50 oz / (1 1/4 cup)
Water (117.02g) / 4.13 oz / (1/2 cup)
IDY (.86g) / 5/16 t
Salt (2.34g) / 7/16 t

3.43 oz of sauce
9.14 oz of cheese

Hope this helps,


 
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on July 18, 2011, 11:35:58 AM
Every time I see this thread pop as unread I become homesick for a fix of Loui's or Buddy's. If I could see in to the kitchen of any pizzeria and watch pizzas being made I would like to see Louis Tourtois of Loui's make me a pie.  He's 75 now, think he is still making pies himself? 

I am planning a short 2 or 3 day trip to Detroit in late July early August.  I'll have at least 5 opportunities to dine out.  I was kind of thinking.... ...maybe something Middle Eastern around Michigan Avenue in Dearborn and another PIZZA. 

1. Loui's - Hazel Park
2. Bet & Jessie's Fish & Chips - Redford (I can't believe this place is still here)
3. Apollo Coney Island - Riverland Drive & Van Dyke in Sterling Heights (Best Shish Kebob sandwiches & chili fries anywhere)
4.
5.

Hey Saturday Coffe
I noticed you mention hankerin' for some Middle Eastern, and that you will be in Sterling Heights.  Right next door in Clinton Township is my current favorite, Fattoush Lebanese Grill.  Family run (2 sisters, hubby and son), smallish place, smallish menu, smallish prices, about as home made as one can find.
http://www.yelp.com/biz/fattoush-clinton-township (http://www.yelp.com/biz/fattoush-clinton-township)
Around Dearborn there are so many it is hard to go wrong, but this place is reported as a fav and was featured on Anthony Bourdain's TV show.
http://www.alameerrestaurant.com/ (http://www.alameerrestaurant.com/)
I recall reading somewhere that Loui's son is now running the show.  Haven't been there for a few years but it was still the real deal then.  Chili fires and kabob sammies?  I will be hitting Apollo for sure, thanks!

Longcommutes, good looking pie there, glad it worked out for ya.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Clive At Five on July 27, 2011, 10:36:11 AM
Seasoning the pan made a HUGE difference.

I used a little extra yeast so the dough would be ready to use in ~2.5 hours, and had no problems getting it to develop. I even did a mini punch-down/spread-out about an hour in. I used verrrrry little oil, but still it seemed too much. I even ended up draining some off. I also crisco'd the edges because I was very paranoid about the cheese sticking. That was probably overkill. With all the toppings, I was already at the brim of the pan, and the melted Crisco along with the run-off from the cheese bubbled over the side and smoked up the oven. Next time, I will "tempt fate" and use just a modest spray of release agent.

The cheese popped out just fine, by the way, no effort at all.

This pizza is GOOOOOOOOD. Crispy bottom layer, thick cheese, and delicious! The only thing is that I can only imagine how disgustingly unhealthy it is... it's very oily, which I'll definitely be trying to minimize... it's delicious, don't get me wrong, but I feel like I have to run a marathon afterwards.

Thanks for the help on a great pie, PizzaHog (and others!)

-Clive
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: norma427 on July 27, 2011, 11:22:06 AM
Clive,

Your pizza really looks delicious!   :)  Great job.

Norma
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: pjbear05 on August 06, 2011, 02:31:41 PM
I recently read on the Free Press site about the 60th anniversary of Buddy's original location, has anybody been there for a 60th anniversary pie?

I miss that place from my softball playing days at Jayne Field.

I'll be making dough tonight and a pizza tomorrow.
 :chef:
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: grindliner on September 02, 2011, 11:33:02 AM
the recipe in post 199 is pretty damn close.

I was talking with local Italian baker about this thread, and that I am shooting to clone Loui's, he asked me how I was frying my dough, I told him I've tried olive and canola oils on different occaisions, he told me to try lard and gave a wink!

So, my next attempt will be with lard
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on September 02, 2011, 01:44:44 PM
grindliner,

You might check out Reply 284 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,691.msg151440.html#msg151440. "Manteca" is Spanish for lard but it is largely in liquid form rather than solid form.

Peter
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Saturday Coffee on September 02, 2011, 06:27:00 PM
I was talking with local Italian baker about this thread, and that I am shooting to clone Loui's, he asked me how I was frying my dough, I told him I've tried olive and canola oils on different occaisions, he told me to try lard and gave a wink!

I always knew Loui's was a heart attack waiting to happen. 


   
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Shields Street Guy on September 07, 2011, 11:54:31 AM
 Hello everyone,
I just discovered this great Pizza forum yesterday while looking for Sicilian Pizza Dough recipes and I'm very glad to be here.
I was born on Shields street in Detroit, MI , FOUR blocks from Buddy's Rendezvous on Conant St.
Between my home and Buddy's there was a place called the "Turtle Soup Inn" that served great Round Pizza.
Long before Shields Pizza opened, TWO long blocks from me, there was a small Pizzeria named "Home Of The Pizza" serving square, Sicilian style Pizza. This one was located at Davison Ave. and Moenart St., about 3/4 of a mile from my home.
 I've also been to Loui's many times. They were all great!

I was in PIZZA HEAVEN! NOTHING like these in the Florida Keys :(

Dave Andreski
Key West, FL

 P.S., PLEASE excuse my misspelled 'user name'. It should read SHIELDS STREET GUY, NOT SHEILDS! How embarrassing. I've asked the forum owner to correct this for me.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: grindliner on September 15, 2011, 10:10:06 AM
Dave, my parents grew up @ Nevada & Goddard, and Nevada & Orleans, went to Pershing in the 60's

No Buddy's here, I was born and raised on Loui's. while they're almost identical, I'll describe Buddy's as a cheapened version of loui's.

BTW, still the same decor to this day, the only remodeling they've done is they swap out some of the wine bottles occasionally.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: BDoggPizza on September 20, 2011, 08:22:12 PM
I have still been using my recipe posted on the first page of this thread.  Tomorrow I am looking forward to trying the dough recipe in post 199.  Can't wait for some awesome Detroit Style Pizza tomorrow night!  Much thanks to all for their efforts on this one. Any other or new tips would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
BDogg
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: grindliner on September 20, 2011, 09:33:21 PM
I have tried using all Brick cheese, and it was way too salty,  but had awesome results with 50/50 mix of Mozz and white cheddar.



Might have to go old school to figure out what they're really using
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: BDoggPizza on September 21, 2011, 03:54:27 PM
I have still been using my recipe posted on the first page of this thread.  Tomorrow I am looking forward to trying the dough recipe in post 199.  Can't wait for some awesome Detroit Style Pizza tomorrow night!  Much thanks to all for their efforts on this one. Any other or new tips would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
BDogg

Just made a batch of dough...WOW!!!  I didn't know this "dough" was going to be like paste/glue!  It was darn near impossible to get out of the bowl and spread out and on to the bottom of the pan.  Is this normal???  I managed and now its on the counter in the pan for a 3-4 hour rise in the pan.  Hopefully it turns out!  I have some hungry people coming over looking forward to some Detroit Style Pizza!

BDogg
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: grindliner on September 21, 2011, 10:39:36 PM
olive oil on the hands helps with the stickyness
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: schwee on October 06, 2011, 09:23:23 PM
Hi, my attempt came out pretty close. I still need to tweek the cheese ratios and the cook time but over all I'm pretty happy with it.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: casstech on October 26, 2011, 12:13:01 PM
I worked for a small Detroit place called "The Home of the Pizza" back in the 60's. Rich the owner got the recipe from Buddy's like everyone else did back then. I go to Loui's now, best pie around. Here's some pics from pizza nite at Loui's with some friends that "Shields Street Guy" might recognize.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: SoulRepublic on November 01, 2011, 03:43:49 PM
Alright. I can't take it.
I originally signed up on this site for more tips on gluten-free and vegan pizza (to impress the lady). But my goodness, I'm making a Detroit style this weekend. I've only ever made thin crust styles but looking at the pics and reading this thread has me salivating at the thought. I need to run to Buddy's this evening come to think of it...
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: michelle9491 on November 28, 2011, 01:17:40 PM
Well I have been reading this all weekend. I am right now making the dough & also have a dough ball in a pan that I made with the recipe for my yeast rolls, texture seemed like what was looking for, so why I am trying that. Hubby & I decided to let the employee handle the shop so I am making pizzas today lol. I just had a thought & had to ask if anyone has tried it. Maybe the oil in the pan is Whirl? I used to work for a restaurant & its what used on the grill & egg pans. It is a butter flavored vegetable oil that doesnt tend to burn.

http://www.caterersearch.com/Articles/24/09/2008/323570/Whirl-liquid-vegetable-oil-from-AAK.htm
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: android on December 09, 2011, 12:26:50 PM
are these doughs (pizzahog's and others) being baked on a standard baking sheet or in a deeper sided pan?
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on December 09, 2011, 02:05:15 PM
are these doughs (pizzahog's and others) being baked on a standard baking sheet or in a deeper sided pan?

android,

They are deeper-sided pans. I think I referenced this link earlier in this thread, but see Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13687.msg137295.html#msg137295.

Peter
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: android on December 09, 2011, 02:57:40 PM
perfect, thanks much Peter.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: FJPhil on December 13, 2011, 03:34:06 PM
So I've used the accepted recipe (from reply 199) 3 times now, and unfortunately have not been happy with the results. I'm wondering where I am going wrong....the pizza looks great, but the texture of the crust is just...off.  It has more of a crunchy texture, and is very airy...almost like a ciabatta texture. Also, any exposed crust doesnt really brown, it just turns like a beige/ off white color.

Whenever I have had Buddy's in the past, I remember the texture being crispy around the edges, but the interior had that sort of "half-baked" texture where the top half of the pizza was moist and chewy with excellent mouthfeel. 

I'm following the instructions exactly, and I am even using well seasoned 10x14 blue steel pans. The dough is rising properly (after around 3 hours). 

The only 3 things I can think of are:
1. Flour - I am using KA All Purpose Flour...would a bread flour, or blend provide better results?
2. Pan Oil - I am using Canola oil.....would using a different oil change the texture/taste?
3. Pan Oil - Perhaps I'm using too much? When I'm initially stretching the dough to fit the pan (before fermentation,as best as possible, it never really fits initially) it really is sliding around in a decent amount of oil.   ???

Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: gothamgirl on December 17, 2011, 04:32:19 PM
I have made this pizza several times with great results each time.  I suggest (as many others have done) that you use peanut oil to coat the pan.  I use a pastry brush to coat the pan, otherwise you will have too much oil and it won't be distributed evenly.  I also lightly coat my fingers in oil to spread the sticky dough.  With a light coating of oil, the dough should cover the entire pan throughout the rise. It should never "slide around" at all if you use a brush.  As for the dough, I use a 50/50 blend of APF and Bread Flour.  Perhaps if you experiment with your flours and bake time, you will have better results. Let me just say that I absolutely LOVE this recipe!
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: RonnieD on December 17, 2011, 10:19:59 PM
FJPHIL,

I've never been to Buddy's but base my experience from Cloverleaf so my feedback may not be specifically on target.  I do use the same recipe with the following changes.

I've decreased the hydration to 70%.  My stone is on the second rack from the bottom which is preheated at 500 prior to baking and turned down when the pizza goes in.  I'm not sure but I don't think the pan oil would impact the top of the pizza, only the bottom and sides.  I use olive or light olive oil for my pan using about half of what's recommended coated with a brush.

After mixing the dough I scrape it into my 12x12 pan and let it rest 30 minutes.  Then I spread it out as far as I can until it starts springing back.  Let it rest 1 hour and spread it out as far as I can again.  This usually gets it close to the edge.  After 2 hours I can top and bake it or put it in the refrigerator until ready to use.

When I bake it, I rotate it 180 after 10 minutes and let it go another 10.  I do an eyeball test to determine to let it go longer or take it out.

I also use bread flour (KABF) but also have used A/P.  My preference is bread flour because for me it has an extra chew factor.

Other than the way I top it, which changes every time I make it, it comes decently close.  Not exact, but close.  I do believe the white cheddar on the edges are important.  For Cloverleaf, crunchy crust is what it is.  I'd like to see a picture of a cut piece to see what you mean by ciabatta texture.  This is a wet dough and I believe wet doughs creates more bubbles (airy), but not 100% sure.

Hope this helps.

Below is one of my results. 

Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: FJPhil on December 18, 2011, 12:09:14 AM
I made this recipe again today..and made the following tweaks:
1. For the flour..I put in 173g KABF + 100g KAAP = 273g
2. For the pan oil, I used peanut oil opposed to the canola oil I typically used
3. I added 8g of honey

Everything else I kept the same. After 4 hours, the dough didn't raise as much as the normal recipe..however it still rose.  But at the end of the day, I did enjoy this tweaked recipe a lot better.  The peanut oil provided better flavor to the crust, and the blended flour made for a chewier interior crust. 
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: ChrisG on December 25, 2011, 12:38:07 AM
I have never eaten a pizza in Michigan, so I cannot comment on how the flavor compares to Buddy’s. After seeing the high post count of this thread, the unique sauce strips, and the use of sharp cheddar, I just had to try this out.

I received (2) 8”x10” blue steel pans from Northern Pizza Equipment described in http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13687.new.html#new (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13687.new.html#new) . I rubbed my hands on them and saw tons of metal come off, so I washed them first with soapy water. After reading how the cheese can weld itself to the pans, I tried to season them before use. The first time I put about 3 Tbsp of peanut oil and rubbed it all around the edges too, baked for about 30 mins at 350°F. The house wreaked and became smoky, yet I didn’t see any darkening of the pan. I noticed the oil darkened in color but thought I might’ve had too much oil in it, so I gently poured off excess. Another day I used the leftover oil in the pan to rub the sides again and baked for 20 min at 425°F. Two small spots became dark brown and the rest of the oil was darkening. I should’ve probably did this a few more times, but I became too impatient to make a Buddy’s pizza, so I took the advice of over-lubing the pan a bit with peanut oil (but still nothing compared to Pizza Hut style).

I wanted to see if I could use the cheap 25 lb bag of Sam's Club White Bread Flour I have, so I made two doughs (the other containing KABF) side-by-side to compare. This is the recipe I used for both described by longcommutes in Reply #351:

For 8”x10”:
Flour:  156.02 g
Water: 117.02 g (at room temp)
IDY:        0.86 g
Salt:        2.34 g
3.43 oz of sauce
9.14 oz of cheese (6 oz Cabot sharp white cheddar + 3.14 oz Sam's Club (Stella) dry, skim mozz)

I kneaded for 8 mins and let the dough rest for 20 min. I dipped my finger tips into the pan to coat with oil, then stretched the dough out a bit in the air and then spread it throughout the edges of the pan. This wasn’t as easy as I thought and just seemed to take time for the dough to stay at the edges. If the sides of the pans weren’t covered in oil, I’d imagine this step would’ve been really fast, but I worried it might be too difficult to take out of the pan after baking so I kept the pans well oiled.

After 3 h of rising in the pans with oil-sprayed clear wrap on top at room temp (~65°F), the dough didn’t seem to rise whatsoever. I became impatient and put the oven on warm for about 1 min, turned it off, put the pans in and shut the oven. A half hour later, the dough rose and was maybe 1” tall, so I pulled them out and dressed them while preheating.

I put the cheddar throughout the pan, slightly biased in quantity to the edges, and put the mozz only in the middle (~1.5” away from the edge). The dual sauce strips was quick and easy to apply. I baked both dough recipes simultaneously for 15 min at 475°F on the bottom oven rack.

When I pulled them out of the oven, I let them sit for about 2 min in the pan. After gently scraping the pizza cutter along the edge of each pan, the pies slid out very easily. I let them cool for about 2 mins before cutting into 4 pieces ea.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: ChrisG on December 25, 2011, 12:42:48 AM
Overall Impressions of my 1st Buddy's in Reply #376:
Wow, the cheddar flavor was strong but excellent! I actually didn’t like the crusty cheddar edge, so I’ll try an even mixture next time to see if it cools down the flavor a bit. The sauce I used was lightly flavored, and with no toppings but cheese I was hoping to be able to pick out any flavor differences between the two flours. I realize the protein content is quite different between the two, and the Sam’s Bread flour is also bromated, but it is my opinion the cheese is strong enough that both me and a friend could not distinguish between the two in texture or flavor. The first bite I took of each I thought there was a hint of that bromated flavor in the Sam’s but as I continued eating, neither of us could tell them apart.

I was really shocked the texture felt and looked identical considering the different protein contents, so this is good news (not being a Buddy’s aficionado) I can use the cheaper Sam’s Bread flour for this recipe. The crust’s texture was very interesting (in a good way). The bottom was somewhat crispy and had relatively large air pockets while towards the top, it was very soft and moist (almost not fully baked), but I think this might have to do with it being a cheese-dough interface instead of a sauce-dough interaction.

I read that Buddy’s isn’t supposed to be a greasy crust, and while mine was nothing compared to a Pizza Hut, it definitely was still oily. I think further seasoning of my pans before baking more pizza in them would be in the best interest of my health, so I’ll hold off making more until I get a decent season stuck on the bottom.

I really enjoyed the cheddar flavor, but I kept thinking how it would be fun to try a strongly spiced up sauce on top to complement the strong cheddar flavor, although I have no idea what the Buddy’s sauce tastes like.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: RonnieD on December 25, 2011, 08:57:34 AM
Nice job.  Edges look great.  Very impressive for the first time.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: ChrisG on December 26, 2011, 02:10:27 PM
Nice job.  Edges look great.  Very impressive for the first time.
Thanks, Ronnie!

I want to point out how different the two doughs appeared after the 4 h rise in Reply #376.  Despite this, Reply #377 has side-by-side comparisons of the two different recipes in photo (4).JPG, photo (5).JPG, and photo (7).JPG that are indistinguishable appearance and taste-wise.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: localseo on January 23, 2012, 03:25:31 PM
Finally the basics are all together so here is my recipe for Detroit Style Pie.
I attempted to incorporate as much of the info contained in this thread as possible.  Sort of trying to imagine how one of these pizzerias would pump out the dough and pies every day.  Whenever in doubt I referred to the KISS theory.  I also tried to use easily findable ingredients for everyone's convenience.  In the end this is a simple and forgiving dough but the devil was in the other details.
No scale, all measurements textbook method.

Flour (100%):    273.04 g  |  9.63 oz | 0.6 lbs               2C + 3 T
Water (75%):    204.78 g  |  7.22 oz | 0.45 lbs            ¾ C + 1 T + 2 ½ t
IDY (0.55%):    1.5 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.5 tsp | 0.17 tbsp      ½ t
Salt (1.5%):    4.1 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.73 tsp | 0.24 tbsp   ¾ t
Total (177.05%):   483.42 g | 17.05 oz | 1.07 lbs | TF = 0.1218

KAAP, table salt, tap water, KA mixer with "C" dough hook, 10x14 black steel pan.
Dissolve salt in water, add flour, sprinkle IDY on top.  Mix on lowest speed until incorporated then continue on this speed for a 8 min knead.  20 mins rest to relax then scrape into greased pan, spread, cover, rise, dress and bake on bottom oven rack for 15 min at 475.

Yeast.  I have varied between 0.33 and 1.1% and the only noticeable effect was rise time so adjust away.  The above formula is usable in 3-4 hours at room temp for me.

This is a wet, soft, sticky, extensible dough.  Not much handling possible or needed.  With fingers oiled from the tips to 2nd joint it smooshes out fairly easy.  The "double knead" process does make it easier to spread as described in Peter's helpful summary http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg81436.html#msg81436 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg81436.html#msg81436).

The magic cheese here is indeed white cheddar.  If these pizzarias are not/were not using this, then it must be white cheddar's twin sister.  I have used Boar's Head Vermont white cheddar and Cabot Extra Sharp white cheddar from Walmart, sold in 2 lb blocks and half the price of Boar's Head.  The Cabot is the sharper, saltier, and more intense of the two, but they both caramelize up golden to brown (not black) and have the unmistakable flavor profile of the Detroit style.  Blending these with a mozz that goes creamy and goey adds an interesting effect and can soften the sharp cheddar if desired, but ONLY pure white cheddar should be used on the perimeter of the pan to create the all important caramelized cheese crust.  Shredded or cubed both work.  Pile the cheese up around the perimeter of the pan then fill in the center.  15 oz is what Buddy's indicate they use.

Pan prep.  Every pan lube I have tried works.  OO appears to be most authentic and is what I am using now.  Getting this right results in a good crisp fry without the pie ending up greasy.  In the 10x14 pan, 1 1/2 tsp spread with a pastry brush is about perfect since the brush does soak up and remove some of the oil.  The cheese crust always welds itself to the pan for me.  To prevent this, I paint a thin strip of shortening just above the risen dough with a brush around the sides of the pan before piling on the cheese.  It still does not pop out, but can at least be released with just a little effort. 

Sauce.  All the Detroit pizzerias have quite diff sauces and 6 fluid ounces seems about right for a 10x14.  I have not yet succeeded in coming up with any of the individual sauces of the big 3, I think. 

The crumb and texture here is better than passable but I believe bromated flour would be necessary to close the gap.  Even so, this pie could be mistaken for one of the real things, past or present.  That is due to these pizzas being a moving target.  Since starting this quest I have used 4 diff Buddy's locations for "controls" and over that year have experienced 3 diff versions of the same pie!  The last was just this week and after I thought I had the sauce figured, they either changed it dramatically or the particular location I visited (for the first time) is just diff or something.  Plus the cheese was not right.  It was one of their carry out only's so maybe that is the reason?   
 
PJ, I pull the pie out of the pan immediately and onto a cooling rack to preserve the bottom crisp until served.  I found this helped with the way over hydrated 90% version of Sicilian dough and also with some NY styles.  To be honest, I never tested if this matters with this particular formula but am just in the habit.

That's all I can think of for now.
Hog
Hog,
I have made this twice and each time the dough is not very wet.  It forms a nice ball like a traditional pizza dough.  I don't have a scale so I am measuring by volume but I am being exact with water and flour and both times yield the same result.  I have a third attempt resting and instead of:
flour: 2C + 3 T
Water ¾ C + 1 T + 2 ½ t

I did:
flour: 2C + 4 T
Water 1/¾ C + 1 T + 2 ½ t

That got a dough that is similar to pancake batter.  Just wondering what I could be doing wrong with your recipe.

Also, what water temp (roughly) do you use?

Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Matthew on January 28, 2012, 03:12:32 AM
Hog,
At what point does the sauce go on?  Is it cooked or right out of the can?

Matt
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: sailor570 on January 29, 2012, 03:24:18 AM
BDoggPizza,

I took the liberty of converting your dough recipe to a baker's percent format, using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html. I got the following:

Flour (100%):
Water (63.1111%):
IDY (0.3951%):
Salt (2.1875%):
Olive Oil (0.88183%):
Sugar (2.08333%):
Total (168.65886%):
255.15 g  |  9 oz | 0.56 lbs
161.03 g  |  5.68 oz | 0.35 lbs
1.01 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.33 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
5.58 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
2.25 g | 0.08 oz | 0 lbs | 0.5 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
5.32 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.33 tsp | 0.44 tbsp
430.33 g | 15.18 oz | 0.95 lbs | TF = N/A

I also calculated a thickness factor based on your round 13" pan (deep-dish PSTK) of 0.1143592 [15.179155/(3.14159 x 6.5 x 6.5) = 0.1143592].

Peter


Peter.
These are more questions about the calculator, but I don't know how to quote this and put it elsewhere.

1.) I have not previously understood how one arrives at a thickness factor without looking it up in a table. I have done forum searches, and read the Expanded Pizza Dough Calculator "further details" and seen nothing but the general comments. But it's clear from your calculation that TF is ounces of dough per square inch. I did finally see more info in the Lehmann Pizza Dough Calculator "further details", but since I never used that tool. I never looked at its "further details". My suggestion is that you somehow also link that entry into all the dough tools, or at least its explanation of TF.

2.) In this reply, you took BDogg's recipe, and input it into the calculator without previously knowing the final weight, or the thickness factor. Your printout of the initial results came up with percentages, without a TF. You then calculated the TF. I've wanted to do that, but was unable without spending considerable time "approximating" percentages till the numbers matched. How do you, and therefore I, easily input the data into the calculator, from a recipe like BDogg's that only gives quantity's?

Thank You
Blair
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on January 29, 2012, 10:15:13 AM
Blair,

I think if I show you how I came up with the dough formulation you referenced, you will see how everything, including the thickness factor, fits together and are related. For this purpose, I will use the recipe that BDoggPizza posted earlier in this thread, as follows:

Detroit Style Pizza

Dough Recipe               
Flour    9 oz               
Water    5.68 oz just under ¾ cup                   
IDY    1/3 tsp               
Salt    1 tsp               
Oil    ½ tsp               
Sugar    1 1/3 tsp


The first thing I did was to convert the volume measurements for the IDY, salt, oil and sugar to weight measurements (the flour and water are already given by weight). In order to do this, you need to know the volume-to-weight conversion factors for these ingredients. I used the conversion factors that are embedded into the expanded dough calculating tool. They are as follows:

IDY: 1t. = 0.133333 oz.
Salt: 1 t. = 0.196875 oz. (this is for regular table salt)
Oil: 1 t. = 0.1587301 oz. (this is for olive oil)
Sugar: 1 t. 0.140625 oz. (this is for regular table sugar)

With the above conversion factors, I am able to convert the volumes of all of the above ingredients into weights. Once I have all of the weights, I can add them all up to get the total dough weight. I am also able to calculate the baker's percents by simply dividing the weight of each ingredient by the weight of the flour. The flour is always 100%, by definition.

I am now ready to use the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html. I simply select the Dough Weight option and fill in all the blanks with the required information.

The only remaining step is to calculate the thickness factor. The purpose for doing this is to allow one to use the expanded dough calculating tool (or the Lehmann dough calculating tool if desired) to make dough for a different size pizza. For this, you need the thickness factor. In our example, we know the size of pan that BDoggPizza used. It is 13". For that size pan, the thickness factor equals the dough weight divided by 3.14159 x R x R, where R is the radius of the pan.

You might want to keep in mind that different types of pizzas can have different thickness factors. I have written on this subject many times before but I believe the last time I did so in some depth was at Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12243.msg115759/topicseen.html#msg115759. Many people start with a thickness factor, whether it is one of those I listed in Reply 1 above or one of their own choosing to meet their own specific needs or requirements. When starting with a thickness factor, the Thickness Factor option of the selected dough calculating tool is used and the blanks are filled in wiith the required information. Our members design and modify their own formulations all the time, in most cases on their own and without help from others. Members usually come to me when they need to convert a recipe such as that used by BDoggPizza into baker's percent format.

Peter
 
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on January 30, 2012, 02:17:17 PM
Quote
Hog,
I have made this twice and each time the dough is not very wet.  It forms a nice ball like a traditional pizza dough.  I don't have a scale so I am measuring by volume but I am being exact with water and flour and both times yield the same result.  I have a third attempt resting and instead of:
flour: 2C + 3 T
Water ¾ C + 1 T + 2 ½ t

I did:
flour: 2C + 4 T
Water 1/¾ C + 1 T + 2 ½ t

That got a dough that is similar to pancake batter.  Just wondering what I could be doing wrong with your recipe.

Also, what water temp (roughly) do you use?

localseo
Hmm..., this could be a result of different measuring methods with the flour.  I use the "textbook" method which is to fluff up the flour in the container first, then spoon the flour into the measuring cup until it is just overfull, then cut off the excess flat with the top of the cup.  This yields the least weight of flour per cup of all volume methods, but is the most repeatable.  If you are measuring differently then you are prob ending up with more flout than I.  My fav version is thicker than pancake batter for sure but still needs to be scraped out of the bowl and is pretty impossible to handle otherwise.
I have only messed with water temp when mixing up a fast emergency dough or when really extending the fermentation, otherwise it is always just as it comes out of the tap.

Quote
Hog,
At what point does the sauce go on?  Is it cooked or right out of the can?

Matt

Hey Matt
Uncooked and spooned on with the cheese and other toppings before hitting the oven, no pre-bake or late additions. 

Hog
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Matthew on January 30, 2012, 04:06:16 PM


Hey Matt
Uncooked and spooned on with the cheese and other toppings before hitting the oven, no pre-bake or late additions. 

Hog

Merci!
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: peterinco on February 06, 2012, 10:11:52 PM
I grew up in large part on the east side of Detroit.  Buddy's, the original in Hamtramck was by far the family favorite.  And I spent many late nights at Buscemi's.  Another favorite was a place called the Green Onion on Mack Ave. (the typical "party store" tray pizza, a portable burner underneath, and a plastic cover); another was a place called Vince's on Eight Mile--more like "bakery pizza" (soft, bread-like crust).  When in college my Summer job was driving a Coke truck, so I have been to virtually every neighborhood and party store then in the metro area.

Eventually I will get around to posting my recipe (I learned the gist of it on P. Allen Smith's garden show)--super simple, no sugar, no oil.  (http://www.pallensmith.com/food/recipes/perfect-pizza-crust)

Anyway...  It is going to take me a while to catch-up on the 20 pages here.  But my two biggest thoughts/questions are:

1.  I haven't seen any mention of milk in the dough in this thread (EDIT:  wrong, it is there).  I have been experimenting with a Pizza Hut pan pizza recipe and it calls for nonfat dry milk (liquid can be substituted).  Some of the pictures in this thread tend to look like crusts using this ingredient.

2.  How commonly do you all add gluten?  I tend to buy inexpensive unbleached flour and typically use about a third-40% whole wheat flour with a dab of honey.  I've started to add a couple of teaspoons of vital wheat gluten.  Any comments on this?

I look forward to studying this thread!

EDIT:  The other place that I couldn't think of was called Cal's--on Warren Avenue.  It was a little sort of dark bar with a tacky seventies decor.  Typical Detroit area for that time.  I mean, I don't think the original Buddy's ever received any decorating awards.  And I have been to Shield's and probably half a dozen knock-offs where the chef went, or owner started etc.  Anyway, Cal's was outstanding as well--and I think they used to sell their pizzas in little tin trays for bake at home.  So I'm thinking the whole thing isn't such a big secret or that it is that difficult to approximate.

QUESTION:  If I read the rest of this thread will I find the word "boomba?"

EDIT #2:  Okay Hog, you appear to be THE man.  I'm up to Reply #193 and it seems you're just about there. The whole thing reads like a suspense story.  Found boomba (and Cal's), albeit misspelled...
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on February 07, 2012, 10:02:13 AM
peterinco,

With respect to the vital wheat gluten, on this forum it is a mixed bag. Some members use it and feel it makes a better dough for them, especially if they are looking to increase the protein content of the flour they are using, whereas other members do not like it at all and won't use it. FYI, there is even a tool accessible at http://foodsim.toastguard.com/, called the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator, that can be used to determine how much vital wheat gluten to add to a given flour to increase its protein content by a specified amount.

In some countries, the flours that are available are so weak that one of the few options available to increase the protein content is vital wheat gluten. In the U.S. our choices are almost endless although it will usually be difficult to find high-gluten flours at the retail store level.

You are also correct that some pan style pizzas, like the original Pizza Hut pan style pizzas, used dry milk powder in their doughs. At one point, when their pan style doughs were made fresh (they are now all frozen), they used a dairy blend that included whey, nonfat milk and buttermilk.

I do not believe that members have been using either vital wheat gluten or dry milk powder to make Buddy's or similar clones.

Peter
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: joelb79 on March 02, 2012, 01:59:40 PM
This was posted in the Detroit News in the early 80's:

Buddy's Deep Dish Detroit Style Pizza

CRUST:
1 pkg yeast (dissolved in 1/4 c warm water)
2 tsp dry milk (add to yeast & proof 10 min)
1 tsp sugar
4 1/4 c flour
1 tsp salt
2 Tbs olive oil
1 1/4 c warm water
Stir all ingr. plus yeast mxt. in large bowl using only half flour.
When blended add remaining flour. Knead, cover, rise till double.
Make 2 balls.

SAUCE:
2-15 oz cans tomato puree (Or one 29 oz can)
2 Tbs olive oil
1 tsp salt
1/2 tsp garlic salt
2 cloves garlic, minced
1/2 tsp basil
1 tsp oregano
2 tsp sugar
Combine all & simmer 15 minutes.

Place dough in 2 heavily oiled 9 x 12 pans.
Pepperoni on dough, then mushrooms then 4 cups of cheese.
Scatter green pepper & onions on cheese.
Then 3 long rows of sauce on top.
Bake preheated 450 for 20-25 minutes.

Please notice that this recipe uses less moisture % than what I am seeing here on page 20 of this thread.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: rpmfla on April 02, 2012, 04:54:55 PM
I live and work in Tampa, Florida...home of Peter Taylor and his Woodfired Pizza and Wine Bar. Now, a new Detroit style place has opened less than a block from the university where I work. It is called Pizza Squared, Detroit Style Pizza. I think the owner may have posted here at...

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17214.0.html

I have read the whole Raquel thread and now the whole of this thread, so I can now make really great pizzas at home in either style.

I have never posted pics here before but am going to give it a try.

The square pizza was my first attempt using the recipe at post 199 of this thread. I love it! I like how the very wet dough can be smooshed out to fill the pan.


Peter has this pizza at Woodfired he calls the Dante because it uses Dante cheese. It is spicy, with Sriracha Hot Sauce. The Diablo is my version.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: rpmfla on April 02, 2012, 05:02:50 PM
Oh, and I forgot to mention...

I didn't know what Brick Cheese was so I did some research and somewhere it said you could substitute Havarti. So I used Havarti on the edges and a Havarti/Mozz blend toward the center.

The sauce was just Tomato Magic which I absolutely think makes a great sauce right out of the can. My other ingredients were pepperoni, italian hot sausage (pre cooked and dabbed with paper towels to remove some grease), mushrooms, and those little red/orange/yellow sweet peppers.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on April 02, 2012, 05:08:45 PM
Rod,

You did a terrific job.

Peter
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: parallei on April 02, 2012, 05:38:22 PM
rpmfla,

Both your pies look great, but the square one...... :chef:
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: norma427 on April 02, 2012, 08:46:49 PM
Rod,

Your crumb looks fantastic!  :chef:

Norma
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on April 02, 2012, 08:59:16 PM
I had been waiting for some time to see when Buddy's would come out with the Nutrition Facts for their pizzas. A few months ago, I checked the Buddy's website and saw that the Nutrition Facts had finally been posted, at http://www.buddyspizza.com/nutrition.asp?Category=3. Unfortunately, the Nutrition Facts do not state weights, only slice serving sizes.

If one were able to purchase or otherwise procure a Buddy's dough ball, I think it should be possible to do some tests to determine the type of flour used and the hydration value that Buddy's uses for its dough. My recollection is that the Buddy's dough is only flour, water, yeast and salt, and no oil or sugar. That is perhaps the easiest type of dough to reverse engineer and clone. The Nutrition Facts then might become useful to further flesh out and confirm the formulation.

Peter
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: tberichon on April 16, 2012, 06:29:34 PM
I believe the secret is in the hydration. I tried up to 100% but texture was wet inside and chewy. 75% is the correct amount and using
hot 125-130* water you can have a pizza out of the oven in 3 hours. Black steel pans are also important.

water 75%
salt   1.5%
yeast .4 to .6 depending on ferment

used cusinart last few times instead of KA and actually mixed better i thought.
makes awesome breadsticks too.
475* middle bottom rack for 15 min
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: tberichon on April 16, 2012, 06:31:38 PM
sauce on top, cheese to pan.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: tberichon on April 16, 2012, 06:32:15 PM
side view
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: rpmfla on April 16, 2012, 08:12:39 PM
Excellent looking pizza!

I did my first one at 475 for about 14 minutes and felt the cheese was a little over cooked. The last one I did at 450 for 16 minutes and it was perfect. I think everyone's oven is different, so it is important to adjust for your own oven. The important thing to shoot for is a nicely browned bottom and crust without over cooking the toppings.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: rpmfla on April 19, 2012, 01:46:07 PM
A couple of friends and I went to the new Detroit Style place for lunch yesterday, and I asked him about the Brick Cheese and that I had heard that you can substitute mild white cheddar or havarti for it in a recipe.

He brought out two little plastic cups with shredded cheese in each and said one was Brick Cheese and the other is mild white cheddar. Well I have to say there was a huge difference between the two. The white cheddar was familiar in texture and taste, as we have come to know, but the Brick Cheese was creamy like havarti or (as my friend said, muenster), and the main flavor I got was "buttery".

I had used havarti in my first two attempts at Detroit Style Pizza, and it was good, but even while it came close in texture, it was too sharp in flavor compared to Brick Cheese. The owner of this restaurant, Pizza Squared, offered to sell me some Brick Cheese at his cost which he said would be less than what I could buy it for. I told him I'd buy some the next time I went there. He seems like a real nice guy.

Oh, and one other thing he mentioned was that he uses no oil at all in his pans when cooking his pizzas. I had lightly coated my pan with oil and it worked fine, but I could see not using oil for health reasons if one was woriied about trying to make this already decadent pizza as healthy as possible.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Kate24 on June 08, 2012, 12:58:38 AM
Hi everybody! I just signed up so that I could tell you all how much I'm loving this thread. I grew up in SE Michigan and Buddy's was definitely one of my family's go-to pizza places. I live out of state now and crave it regularly. I was so happy that I came across this forum, there is so much great information on here.

I've actually been lurking here for a little bit and have tried out Pizza Hog's wonderful recipe that was in post #199. It turned out well and tastes almost like the real thing to me! The only thing I had some trouble with was crisping up the crust. I blame it on my lack of those famous blue steel pans. After perusing all of the posts in here and a few others where Pete-zza very nicely listed out all of the known places to get them, I went on a little hunt to find a couple of 8" x 10" ones. My mom's birthday is coming up and I thought it would be a nice surprise to make her some Buddy's-style pizza because I know she misses it just about as much as I do. Just for anyone else who is in search of them, here's what I found out. Hopefully this is an ok place to post all of this, it's kind of long.

They are apparently not in production anywhere anymore and pretty much all of the known distributors are completely sold out. I noticed that Northern Pizza Equipment didn't have them listed on their site any longer so I emailed and the response I got said that they're out of stock and wouldn't be getting any more in.

I moved onto P.A. Products and they told me pretty much the same thing. The woman I spoke to on the phone said that there is "no more blue steel" and that the closest things they had were non-stick 9" x 13" and 8" x 8" pans.

I had remembered reading here that Dover Parkersburg was the actual manufacturer of the pans so I called them just to see if they had any kind of replacement in the works. I spoke to a girl who told me that they had stopped production of the blue steel within the last year and have replaced it with cold rolled steel. I asked her about it and she said that many of their food service reps were buying them to replace the other ones but she did tell me that they have a tendency to rust a lot easier than the original pans. As Pete-zza said in a previous post, they would not sell to the public even if they did have the pans.

As a last effort, I called up Roselli's to see if they by some chance had any left over. Not surprisingly, they didn't. I was told that they were carrying the newer cold rolled steel pans in both the 8" x 10" and 10" x 14" sizes. The sales associate told me that she hadn't heard anything about them rusting more easily but that she couldn't be sure. I was actually about to order a couple of the 8" x 10" just so that I could have something to work with, but unfortunately they wouldn't ship to me since I'm out of state.  :-\

So, looks like I'm back at square one. I really wish that I would have come across this thread a few months earlier when they were still pretty easy to find. If anyone happens to run across another source for them (especially the 8" x 10" size!), please post it! I'd really appreciate it. Or if someone has a couple that they no longer want laying around, I'd be more than happy to take them off your hands.  ;D Any other recommendations are welcome as well!
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: buceriasdon on June 08, 2012, 07:19:54 AM
Kate. There is nothing magical about blue steel pans. Nothing. Blued steel is a process used by manufacturers that deposits a micro thin layer of blue oxide on the surface of carbon steel as a deterrent to rusting quickly. You can take any carbon steel pan and season it with oil and you're good to go. It is best to season two to three times using very little oil each time as opposed to a heavy coat which can lead to a sticky buildup. I do not recommend olive oil. Continued use improves the seasoning.
Don
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: grindliner on June 08, 2012, 11:15:57 AM
Just a Heads up for those in the detroit area. 

Alot of GFS locations are now stocking the 5# blocks of Brick Cheese. I was told Southfield always had it, and now Clawson will be stocking it as well. I cant remember the brand, but I bought a block, as well as a block of their Part skim Mozz.

I did a couple, 1 w/ 8oz Mozz and 8oz brick, and one with 80z mozz, 4oz brick, and 4oz cabot extra sharp white cheddar.

the 50-50 nailed it, the 50-25-25 had alot more grease, but the edges on both browned up nice.

Flavor wise as I said, 50-50 is it, but the wife and son liked the one w/ cheddar better

As stated before #199 is it, with 2 tablespoons of canola brushed in each pan with some crisco on the sides above the crust.

Now all that needs tweaking is the thickness factor as .1215 is too thin. but I am basing mine off of Loui's.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Kate24 on June 08, 2012, 07:33:14 PM
Kate. There is nothing magical about blue steel pans. Nothing. Blued steel is a process used by manufacturers that deposits a micro thin layer of blue oxide on the surface of carbon steel as a deterrent to rusting quickly. You can take any carbon steel pan and season it with oil and you're good to go. It is best to season two to three times using very little oil each time as opposed to a heavy coat which can lead to a sticky buildup. I do not recommend olive oil. Continued use improves the seasoning.
Don

Thanks for the info, it's very helpful. I'll have to peruse around and see if I can a good alternative. Luckily I use cast iron a lot so I'm at least familiar with the seasoning process. I must admit, as much as I love Sicilian/Detroit pizzas they mystify me a bit, I think mostly because I have been trying to find those elusive pans that probably aren't as necessary as I once thought. I make a pretty mean Neapolitan style pizza, but this is a whole new game for me.  :-D I'm looking forward to lots more practice pizzas though. Thank you again!
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: dmcavanagh on June 09, 2012, 08:26:42 AM
Kate24

I've been making a lot of pizza similar to the Detroit style and I love my Chicago Metallics non-stick jelly roll pans. They are very heavy and well made, and are an inch deep. Bed, Bath & Beyond sells a three pan set at a very nice price, and they always have coupons. I think I wound up paying $15 for the set of three different sized pans. If I can find it, I will provide a link in my following post.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: dmcavanagh on June 09, 2012, 08:29:19 AM
here they are, you can't go wrong with these   http://www.bedbathandbeyond.com/product.asp?SKU=13043906
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: sajata on June 09, 2012, 08:48:41 AM
if nothing else here is a selection of deep dish pizza pans, i have purchased form them and they have always come through for me.
http://www.webstaurantstore.com/15141/hard-coat-anodized-deep-dish-pizza-pans.html
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on June 09, 2012, 10:13:05 AM
There is also a company called World Cuisine Paderno that now sells blue steel pans, examples of which can be seen by searching for Paderno blue steel pans at http://www.foodservicedirect.com/ (http://www.foodservicedirect.com/). When I did a general search for the Paderno pans, I found many sources that sell them. To see the Paderno pan sizes, go to http://world-cuisine.com/ (http://world-cuisine.com/) and do a search of the catalog using the terms blue steel. I do not know offhand if the Paderno pans are sold in the same size(s) as used by Buddy's or its competitors for the Detroit style pizza. However, a few searches should answer that question, or one can go back earlier in this thread where I believe I gave the sizes that Buddy's uses.

Another possible source--for dark anodized pans rather than blue steel--is Pizza Tools. See, for example, the Sicilian pans at http://www.pizzatools.com/Square_Sicilian_Pans/30879/subgrouping.htm. Note that those pans come in depths of 1.5" and 2". The 2" deep pans are closest to the blue steel pans. For comparison purposes, the Paderno blue steel pans are 1 1/8" deep.

The advantage of the old blue steel pans that Buddy's and the others, including Jet's, were using is that they were quite cheap. And they are also deep, around 2" deep. Unless Buddy's and the others are able to find a new source of blue steel pans for their own businesses, they, too, may have to pay up for the alternative pans now being sold to the trade.

Peter
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on June 09, 2012, 03:42:28 PM
Wow, some terrific lookin' pies being made since I last posted! 
Really bummed out that these pans have disappeared again, especially since due to circumstances beyond my control I only have one left myself. 
I really don't know what is important here, but I have made these pies in well seasoned cast iron and dark gray non stick steel pans in the past and both worked fine except the non stick was always the least non sticking.  So cold rolled steel sounds OK I guess, but also sounds pricey.  I will be stopping by Roselli's next time I pass by and will take a peek.

 
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: grindliner on June 09, 2012, 10:12:36 PM
Pizzahog, I got mine from Roselli's cheap, the ones I have are 10.5" x 17"  and either 2 or 2.5" deep, they also have smaller size as well.

 they also have the plastic lids which keeps em clean while stored, and allows you to stack em in the fridge for cold ferment. only downside is that the lids cost more than the pans
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Kate24 on June 13, 2012, 07:08:10 PM
Wow, lots of great suggestions, guys! I'll definitely be able to make something work. In fact, I think I already have a couple of the pans that dmcavanagh posted about so I think I'll start with those. :D
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: dmcavanagh on June 13, 2012, 09:16:44 PM
Kate24

This was cooked in my Chicago Metallics pan   http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2012/06/my-pie-monday-hot-dogs-smoked-cherry-tomatoes-cremini-sausage-and-more-slideshow.html#show-248471
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on June 15, 2012, 04:34:09 PM
Thanks to the great folks at Roselli's, more of these black steel pans are available, but not many more.
They located 29 more of the 10x14 but 12 were in a crushed box (didn't even check them out), 5 loose that all have a wierd crease/up-dent in one corner, and one box of 12 in perfect shape which I bought.
So if any forum members would like any of the 12 I bought, I will ship to you while they last.  They are $6.25 ea (case price) plus whatever shipping runs, prob around $10 - $15 in the US.  No mark up or packing or boxing charge of course.
They also have about the same number of the other sizes left which are 8x10 and 12x17.  If anyone is interested in these I can try to get by there before they are gone but unfortunately no guarantees.  My helpful contact there told me last week a single customer bought 6 cases of ea size and these leftovers can disappear at any time.
The "new" pans are expected but not yet there, nor is there any info on price.  Their round deep dish cold rolled pans are really nice, but $35+ ea, so if these new pans are the same they will be pricey.
Anyway, if anyone is interested just shoot me a PM.
Hog
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: grindliner on June 15, 2012, 10:59:35 PM
Holy crap, if I'd known you were gonna clean em out........ :'(

I really need to get some smaller pans for testing, and just smaller pies.

actually, I have the resources to make them, and am going to try one out of stainless.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on June 16, 2012, 10:33:23 AM
Hey grid, if you want any of these pans they're yours.  And Roselli's still has the smaller one's until they run out so it should all still be good. 
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: steel_baker on July 06, 2012, 08:33:22 PM
There is also a company called World Cuisine Paderno that now sells blue steel pans, an example of which is shown at http://www.foodservicedirect.com/product.cfm/p/144753/World-Cuisine-Paderno-Blue-Steel-Baking-Sheet-13-3/4-inch-Length.htm. When I did a search for the Paderno pans, I found many sources that sell them. To see the Paderno pan sizes, go to http://www.world-cuisine.com/store/index.cfm and do a search of the catalog using the terms blue steel. I do not know offhand if the Paderno pans are sold in the same size(s) as used by Buddy's or its competitors for the Detroit style pizza. However, a few searches should answer that question, or one can go back earlier in this thread where I believe I gave the sizes that Buddy's uses.

Another possible source--for dark anodized pans rather than blue steel--is Pizza Tools. See, for example, the Sicilian pans at http://www.pizzatools.com/Square_Sicilian_Pans/30879/subgrouping.htm. Note that those pans come in depths of 1.5" and 2". The 2" deep pans are closest to the blue steel pans. For comparison purposes, the Paderno blue steel pans are 1 1/8" deep.

The advantage of the old blue steel pans that Buddy's and the others, including Jet's, were using is that they were quite cheap. And they are also deep, around 2" deep. Unless Buddy's and the others are able to find a new source of blue steel pans for their own businesses, they, too, may have to pay up for the alternative pans now being sold to the trade.

Peter

One of the things that I love about the blue steel pans that I got from PA products over a year ago (12x17 w/lids) is that they are a very light gauge of steel so they heat up very quickly and evenly. My pizza fries in the pan beautifully and browns up nicely every time. The Paderno pans do work well although they are a heavier gauge and targeted toward general baking rather than pizza making. As long as you don't use too much oil in the pan, the Paderno pans work great.

In terms of the cold rolled steel pans mentioned, I would try to obtain some information on the gauge of the steel used in the pans in comparison to the blue steel pans. I think that's much more critical than whether they are blue steel or cold rolled steel. The heat transmission should be the same if both are the same gauge steel.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: BigT on July 18, 2012, 04:00:50 PM
I am trying to track down a suitable pan to make a Detroit-style pizza and I'm a little confused as it seems that the pans are still available on the sites at Pete-zza mention in the Blue Steel Pan thread (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=13687.0).

Aren't these the blue steel pans, they both seem to be available, or am I missing something?

http://www.bucket-outlet.com/upan.htm

http://www.northernpizzaequipment.com/10tecopan.html
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on July 18, 2012, 04:34:02 PM
BigT,

The Northern Pizza Equipment pan is aluminum and Teflon coated. Teflon coatings may not hold up to the temperatures needed to bake the Detroit-style pizzas.

The Bucket Outlet pans look to be the real deal. But you may want to call them to confirm that they are the old Dover pans and to confirm that they are in stock.

Peter
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: BigT on July 19, 2012, 01:29:55 PM
BigT,

The Northern Pizza Equipment pan is aluminum and Teflon coated. Teflon coatings may not hold up to the temperatures needed to bake the Detroit-style pizzas.

The Bucket Outlet pans look to be the real deal. But you may want to call them to confirm that they are the old Dover pans and to confirm that they are in stock.

Peter

Thanks, I will cross Northern Pizza off the list.

I called the number on the Bucket Outlet website, which is run by Red Hill General Store ("http://www.redhillgeneralstore.com/"). The woman, Bee, was extremely unhelpful and said there is no way to figure out who the manufacturer of the pans is or where they get them. I am trying to find another phone number to call of these guys to talk to someone else. I have also sent them an email, hopefully Bee does not manage the inbox.

Does anyone know if the pan shortage still exists for the actual pizza joints, are they back to purchasing direct from Dover?
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: BigT on July 19, 2012, 02:45:24 PM
Thanks, I will cross Northern Pizza off the list.

I called the number on the Bucket Outlet website, which is run by Red Hill General Store ("http://www.redhillgeneralstore.com/"). The woman, Bee, was extremely unhelpful and said there is no way to figure out who the manufacturer of the pans is or where they get them. I am trying to find another phone number to call of these guys to talk to someone else. I have also sent them an email, hopefully Bee does not manage the inbox.

Does anyone know if the pan shortage still exists for the actual pizza joints, are they back to purchasing direct from Dover?

UPDATE: Bucket Outlet responded to my email and said the pan was made by Parker. Would Parker be short for Dover Parkerburg?

I am thinking about ordering one regardless but how do we know if these pans are food-safe? I can't remember which thread it was in but I saw some pictures of these pans with lots of silver residue coming off when wiped.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on July 19, 2012, 03:01:50 PM
BigT,

Since the Bucket Outlet pans look like ones I saw a long time ago, I would say that "Parker" may refer to Dover in Parkersburg. However, you might seek confirmation of that by return email.

You might also consider calling Dover to get an update on the status of the blue steel pan situation. I noticed at http://www.doverparkersburg.com/products/utility_items.html that Dover is still offering utility pans, in the same sizes as noted at the Bucket Outlet website.

Peter
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: SonnyC79 on August 02, 2012, 09:55:05 AM
Hello,

New member making my first post here!  I came upon this site looking for information on making Detroit style pizzas, and this thread has been IMMENSELY helpful, so I thank everyone for their contributions thus far.  I have never been to Detroit or Buddy's, in particular, but a Detroit-style pizza truck just opened here in Austin, TX (called Via 313 Pizza), and I fell instantly in love with their pizza and the style.  I don't know if I can post pictures yet, but I will try to share one of my photos of a Via 313 pizza on this post.  And before we slam them, yes, there are toppings on top...BUT only because I ordered the pizza with DOUBLE pepperoni (both under and above the cheese)!!

On to my first question...I received a couple of blue steel pans (ordered from Bucket Outlet) yesterday and immediately started the seasoning process.  I baked the pans for a couple of rounds brushed with shortening (Crisco) and/or canola oil.  I know that everyone has mentioned not to wash out the pans, but I just was hoping to get a little more detail about that process.  I pulled the pans out, let them cool, and just wiped them with a wet paper towel.  There is still a pretty sticky residue all over the pans.  Am I supposed to leave them this way, or should I be scraping that off with a stronger sponge?  It feels a bit off to leave that "mess" in the pan, but I totally understand if that is what helps get the desired crispy crust.  If I am to leave them this way, will they eventually wear down and erode?  Any info or help is appreciated, and I can't wait to try my first attempt this weekend!
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: steel_baker on August 02, 2012, 10:26:20 AM

On to my first question...I received a couple of blue steel pans (ordered from Bucket Outlet) yesterday and immediately started the seasoning process.  I baked the pans for a couple of rounds brushed with shortening (Crisco) and/or canola oil.  I know that everyone has mentioned not to wash out the pans, but I just was hoping to get a little more detail about that process.  I pulled the pans out, let them cool, and just wiped them with a wet paper towel.  There is still a pretty sticky residue all over the pans.  Am I supposed to leave them this way, or should I be scraping that off with a stronger sponge?  It feels a bit off to leave that "mess" in the pan, but I totally understand if that is what helps get the desired crispy crust.  If I am to leave them this way, will they eventually wear down and erode?  Any info or help is appreciated, and I can't wait to try my first attempt this weekend!

Leave them oily all the time. If anything sticks, just scrape it out. Don't ever...EVER let soap touch the inside of that pan. Hot water and a brush (just like cleaning cast iron) are OK but after doing that, make sure the pan is oily by adding a small amount of oil and wiping it around with a paper towel to maintain an oily coating on the pans.

The more you bake in it, the "slipperier" and more non-stick the pan will become. I bake in blue steel pans all the time, been doing it for several years now. After taking the pizza from the pan and it's cooled down, just dump out any excess oil, wipe with paper towel to remove excess, and put it away until next time. Simple as that.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: rpmfla on August 02, 2012, 11:10:13 AM
I now have three different sizes of the Paderno World Cuisine blue steel pans! I purchased the 12 X 16 pan first but it is just my wife and I so when I made a Detroit Style pie with that one we'd have pizza for days (which is ok with me but not my wife...she can do once or twice a week so I can't complain). I then bought the small 9 x 12 pan and will use that for just "one off" pies for just that night. Then I went and purchased the 11 x 14. It is our "2 meal" pan.

I love each of these pans. They are very solid construction. The edges are just barely high enough for a Detroit Style (they are not as high as the traditional Detroit Style pans).

When I got the first one I came here for advice on how to season it. I had read somewhere else on the web that one should season the pans 6-7 times. This actually caused a problem as the second time I tried seasoning it the oil puddled a bit so there were dry spots, tacky spots and gooey spots. I ended up scraping the gooey spots off with a plastic spatula and the pan has worked great since.

The second pan I got I tried some grape seed oil as I had read it has a very high burning temperature. I just seasoned it with the oil, wiped it out a bit with a paper towel so there was just a nice thin coating inside and out, and placed it in a 350 degree oven for an hour. This worked well and nothing sticks to that pan...even the cheese at the edge of the Detroit Style.

The third pan I also seasoned with the grape seed oil and last night made my first pie in that one. I had been putting a tablespoon of oil in the pans before putting the dough in, but last night I forgot to do that and the pie still slid right out! Cool.

I would say that if your oil coating remains tacky or even gooey after seasoning in the oven, you either used too much oil or didn't keep it in the oven long enough. It is fine though and the more you use the pan the better it will release.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: SonnyC79 on August 02, 2012, 03:25:14 PM
Leave them oily all the time. If anything sticks, just scrape it out. Don't ever...EVER let soap touch the inside of that pan. Hot water and a brush (just like cleaning cast iron) are OK but after doing that, make sure the pan is oily by adding a small amount of oil and wiping it around with a paper towel to maintain an oily coating on the pans.

Thanks a lot for the information!  So, just to be clear, after "seasoning" the pan, I should remove anything that is sticky-ish?  It shouldn't be sticky at all?  As the other poster mentioned, maybe I didn't let it bake enough (I did 2 rounds...25 minutes with shortening and 25 minutes with canola oil).  Now I just hope I didn't mess up my two pans...
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: rpmfla on August 02, 2012, 04:07:21 PM
I really don't think you can mess it up. My pan was a mess with too much sticky oil so I just scraped off what I could with a plastic spatula and didn't do anything else. The pan works fine.

As I said, with my second and third pans I used a thinner coat of grape seed oil and it worked perfectly. I really don't think multiple seasonings are necessary as long as each time you actually use the pan put a little oil in it. Then afterwards the pizza slides out easily and you can just wipe it clean. If you do wash it, dry it thoroughly and wipe a thin coat of oil on it for storage.

At the local Detroit Style pizzeria they do not add any oil for cooking the pizzas, but his pans have been used hundreds of times so they are nearly black and very slick. The more you use it the better they get.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: steel_baker on August 02, 2012, 04:24:08 PM
Thanks a lot for the information!  So, just to be clear, after "seasoning" the pan, I should remove anything that is sticky-ish?  It shouldn't be sticky at all?  As the other poster mentioned, maybe I didn't let it bake enough (I did 2 rounds...25 minutes with shortening and 25 minutes with canola oil).  Now I just hope I didn't mess up my two pans...

I wouldn't even worry about any sticky areas. Over time and with repeated bakings, the sticky areas will harden and become non-stick anyway. When I season pans, I like to season them at low temp (250F) for at least an hour or more. Sometimes I'll do that 2-3 times with baking in between. They key is to just use it..use it...use it. You'll get less sticking with each successive bake and by the 6th time or so, the pan will be virtually non-stick.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: rpmfla on August 02, 2012, 04:55:48 PM
I would listen to steel_baker. After all, his forum name couldn't get much more specific to your issue!

I was going to choose "paranoid_about_peels/uses_parchment_for_NY_Style" for my forum name...a bit long and not nearly as cool as steel_baker.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: SonnyC79 on August 03, 2012, 02:46:46 PM
One more question has come up (that I had been meaning to ask)...

Is it possible to make this (PizzaHog's) dough without a stand mixer/dough hook?  Unfortunately, I don't own either.  I have a hand mixer, but no dough hooks.  Can you just knead the dough by hand?  From what it sounds like, the dough is pretty wet and pliable, so I imagine that hand kneading it would be tough...without adding a bunch of flour to it, at least.  Or should I try to find some dough hooks that I can attach to my hand mixer?  Any advice is appreciated!
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: BigT on August 06, 2012, 10:36:57 AM
I tried my first Detroit-style pizza using Pizza Hog's recipe. I had one major problem with it and I'm wondering if you guys can diagnose the problem. Since my blue steel pans have not arrived yet, I used my cast iron skillet. The pizza turned out decent except the bottom of the crust (the part that is in contact with the cast iron skillet) did not crisp up and remained a fairly pale color. Any ideas what might have caused this? Is this an oil issue (I used about 1.5 teaspoons just as the recipe calls for and brushed it on the bottom of the pan)? Is the cast iron too thick and thus not get hot enough to properly crisp the bottom of the crust?

The other minor issue is that the edges of the pizza (where I tried to create the caramelized cheese crust) created a ring of grease around the pizza from all the melted cheese. I had to dab it with a paper towel to mop it up. Is it possible that the white cheddar I used was too hard or something? Somehow too much oil gathered around the edges - either from the melted cheese or oil that I lined the sides of the pan with. I didn't use too much oil so I wouldn't think that is the issue.

SonnyC79 - glad that Detroit-syle pizza has made its way to Texas. As far as the toppings on top, that's still legit. Buddy's "Detroiter" pizza (the gold standard of Detroit-style pizza IMO) has pepperoni on top so that it crisps up nicely.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: rpmfla on August 06, 2012, 11:14:15 AM
I would say that your cast iron pan took too long to get up to temp so never really cooked the bottom enough to brown it. A work around would be to finish it out of the pan directly on a (preheated) stone. This problem should go away when your new pans arrive. The other thing is that every oven is a bit different, so you might try a slightly lower temp for a longer time. I use the Paderno World Cuisine pans which are a bit thicker gauge than the traditional Detroit Style Pans so I adjusted by lowering the heat a bit (450) and bake the pie longer (16-20 minutes, depending on size and amount of ingredients).

As far as the greasy cheese issue, you may be right about the type of cheese you purchased. I usually use 100% Brick Cheese or 50/50 with mozz.

Have fun with your new pans.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: steel_baker on August 06, 2012, 11:53:38 AM
I tried my first Detroit-style pizza using Pizza Hog's recipe. I had one major problem with it and I'm wondering if you guys can diagnose the problem. Since my blue steel pans have not arrived yet, I used my cast iron skillet. The pizza turned out decent except the bottom of the crust (the part that is in contact with the cast iron skillet) did not crisp up and remained a fairly pale color. Any ideas what might have caused this? Is this an oil issue (I used about 1.5 teaspoons just as the recipe calls for and brushed it on the bottom of the pan)? Is the cast iron too thick and thus not get hot enough to properly crisp the bottom of the crust?

The other minor issue is that the edges of the pizza (where I tried to create the caramelized cheese crust) created a ring of grease around the pizza from all the melted cheese. I had to dab it with a paper towel to mop it up. Is it possible that the white cheddar I used was too hard or something? Somehow too much oil gathered around the edges - either from the melted cheese or oil that I lined the sides of the pan with. I didn't use too much oil so I wouldn't think that is the issue.

SonnyC79 - glad that Detroit-syle pizza has made its way to Texas. As far as the toppings on top, that's still legit. Buddy's "Detroiter" pizza (the gold standard of Detroit-style pizza IMO) has pepperoni on top so that it crisps up nicely.

Before moving to blue steel pans several years ago (started with Paderno, moved to PA Products pans), I did all of my pizza baking in cast iron pans. Doesn't sound like your oven was hot enough. Although cast iron does take a little longer you'll find it still heats up fairly fast. I always baked mine at 475, bottom rack so that the blazing heat from the element was concentrated on the bottom. With this, I bake a typical sicilian in 10-12 minutes and can create a nice crispy cheese crust around the edges as desired. Every oven is different but this is how I was always able to bake mine and get nice browning. High heat, lower rack to concentrate the bottom heat.... that's my technique.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: BigT on August 06, 2012, 03:29:52 PM
rpmfla and steel_baker - thanks for the tips, even if they are dueling responses. Intuitively, it seems like I need to go hotter. I couldn't let the last one bake longer as the cheese along the edge was beginning to burn, so I couldn't let it go much longer. Hopefully my pans arrive soon and this becomes a moot point.

Also, this will be a teaser of sorts, but I think I am going to have a couple interesting links to post within the next few days that those that have followed this thread will appreciate.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: SonnyC79 on August 06, 2012, 03:56:52 PM
I made my first Detroit-style pizza this weekend, too!  And I must say that it turned out AWESOME!!  Thank you to everyone who has contributed to this thread so far...the recipe was great, the personal experiences were interesting, and all of the tips helped to make my first pizza turn out perfect!  I actually typed up detailed step-by-step recipe/instructions for a friend of mine, so I thought that I would share that with the members of this thread.  I pretty much go step by step, with lots of photos of the assembly process, all based upon PizzaHog's dough recipe and other forum members' recommendations.  I uploaded the file to sendspace, and I believe that it will only be available for 30 days, but maybe it can still help some people out.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/a27552
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: BigT on August 07, 2012, 08:59:21 AM



Time for me to blow my cover. I have a small slice of the internet at a blog I run - Great Lakes, Better Food (http://greatlakesbetterfood.blogspot.com/) - that focuses on my food adventures in Michigan. A few weeks ago, the folks at the Pure Michigan ad campaign asked me to write a spot for their travel blog about anything I wanted that was uniquely Michigan. I figured there was no better topic that Detroit-style pizza. My post went up today:

http://www.michigan.org/blog/guest-blogger/all-square-a-history-of-detroit-style-pizza/

I was restricted to 500 words there, but I couldn't be limited to that, so I put an the extended cut on my blog:

http://greatlakesbetterfood.blogspot.com/2012/08/an-extended-look-at-all-square-history.html

There isn't much in these posts that you guys on here don't already know, but thought some of you  might be interested. Once I get my pizzas to turn out at home based on the suggestions here, I will post a recap on my blog.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: rpmfla on August 07, 2012, 09:26:01 AM
rpmfla and steel_baker - thanks for the tips, even if they are dueling responses. Intuitively, it seems like I need to go hotter. I couldn't let the last one bake longer as the cheese along the edge was beginning to burn, so I couldn't let it go much longer. Hopefully my pans arrive soon and this becomes a moot point.

I don't think they are really "dueling responses". I told you what worked for me with the Paderno pans...lowering the heat a little and longer bakes...and steel_baker suggested moving the pan down to the lower section of the oven and raising the heat. Both ideas will work and neither discounts the other as incorrect. Often in the kitchen there is more than one way to improve a recipe.

If you just turned up the heat and placed your pan in the same place as you did before, I would guess that the top would overcook before your bottom browned.

As I said above, since steel_baker has focused on this style of pizza making (in pans) you should probably take his advice, but don't read "your oven probably wasn't hot enough" and ignore the "move your pan to the bottom of the oven" part.

When I suggested lowering the heat and longer bake times, this was from my own experience and resulted in a browned bottom without an overcooked top.

As you say, the point will be moot when your new pans arrive.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: BigT on August 07, 2012, 09:34:48 AM
I don't think they are really "dueling responses". I told you what worked for me with the Paderno pans...lowering the heat a little and longer bakes...and steel_baker suggested moving the pan down to the lower section of the oven and raising the heat. Both ideas will work and neither discounts the other as incorrect. Often in the kitchen there is more than one way to improve a recipe.
As you say, the point will be moot when your new pans arrive.

Thanks again for all the info. I wasn't being too serious with the dueling responses comment, just teasing you guys a bit. I will move the pan down to the lowest position in the oven next time at a higher temp.

Speaking of the pans, not sure how I missed this but Detroit Style Pizza Co. (formerly Cloverleaf in St. Clair Shores and Clinton Township) is now selling what appear to be the official blue steel pans on their website for under $10.

http://detroitstylepizza.co/detroit-style-pizza-pans/
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: steel_baker on August 07, 2012, 09:47:47 AM
I don't think they are really "dueling responses". I told you what worked for me with the Paderno pans...lowering the heat a little and longer bakes...and steel_baker suggested moving the pan down to the lower section of the oven and raising the heat. Both ideas will work and neither discounts the other as incorrect. Often in the kitchen there is more than one way to improve a recipe.

If you just turned up the heat and placed your pan in the same place as you did before, I would guess that the top would overcook before your bottom browned.

As I said above, since steel_baker has focused on this style of pizza making (in pans) you should probably take his advice, but don't read "your oven probably wasn't hot enough" and ignore the "move your pan to the bottom of the oven" part.

When I suggested lowering the heat and longer bake times, this was from my own experience and resulted in a browned bottom without an overcooked top.

As you say, the point will be moot when your new pans arrive.

Exactly, everybody's ovens, pans, & techniques may be a little different and you have to find out what works for you specifically through trial & error. Continued "practice" at making pizza and striving to meet a target flavor, texture, and ease of preparation will allow you to focus your "trial & error" sessions on reproducing the exact characteristics you're looking for. In the long run, this makes you a more competent & consistent pizza baker. I learned through my process to weigh all of my ingredients into the recipe to make it repeatable & consistent from tray to tray. I'm not kidding when I say it took me 30 years to figure out the Victory Pig pizza that I reproduce. Not that I worked at it constantly during that time but it was always something I had wanted to do and had made several feeble attempts at it in the past.

Interesting point though (and it's one of the main reasons I read this thread) is that the preparation technique for the dough, pans, and baking are all very similar between Detroit Style & Victory Pig. Having only had Buddy's once, I stopped in Livonia to try it based specifically on what I had read in this thread, so I understand this pizza & it's flavor, albeit to a small degree only having had it once. I enjoyed what I had and may try to duplicate it myself in the future (with the benefit of this very mature thread).

I will be visiting my brother-in-law in Farmington Hills next month and I do plan to sample some more Buddy's as well as Jet's pizza. Hear so many raves about Jet's and from what I have seen of the style, it's another soft dough pizza that's baked in an oiled steel pan.

So many pizzas...... so little time.

 :chef:
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: BigT on August 08, 2012, 09:10:31 AM
I am going to go for my next attempt at replicating Buddy's this week based on the tips I've got so far. One more question - has any reverse engineered the italian seasoning blend/sauce that Buddy's uses? That is what sets Buddy's Detroiter apart from the rest for me.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: buceriasdon on August 08, 2012, 09:45:05 AM
BigT, I noticed from the link these new pans are seasoned by the maker, no bluing. I find that interesting.

BigT wrote: Speaking of the pans, not sure how I missed this but Detroit Style Pizza Co. (formerly Cloverleaf in St. Clair Shores and Clinton Township) is now selling what appear to be the official blue steel pans on their website for under $10.

http://detroitstylepizza.co/detroit-style-pizza-pans/
 Don
 









Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: SonnyC79 on August 08, 2012, 11:49:14 AM
BigT, I noticed from the link these new pans are seasoned by the maker, no bluing. I find that interesting.

BigT wrote: Speaking of the pans, not sure how I missed this but Detroit Style Pizza Co. (formerly Cloverleaf in St. Clair Shores and Clinton Township) is now selling what appear to be the official blue steel pans on their website for under $10.

http://detroitstylepizza.co/detroit-style-pizza-pans/
 Don
 

Don, are you implying that this is a bad thing?  I have no idea either way.  I really am just curious as to what you mean by "interesting."  I was thinking of ordering a couple of these pans just to see how well they work.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: buceriasdon on August 08, 2012, 01:05:49 PM
Nope, I'm not implying preseasoned rather than bluing is a bad thing. In fact it's better because you don't have to season the pan yourself as you would with a blued pan. I just happen to believe the term "blued pans" will be around for a long time. A blued pan is not seasoned, these are. The bluing process is only for rust prevention, it does not create a nonstick surface.
Don
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: steel_baker on August 08, 2012, 01:11:04 PM
Nope, I'm not implying preseasoned rather than bluing is a bad thing. In fact it's better because you don't have to season the pan yourself as you would with a blued pan. I just happen to believe the term "blued pans" will be around for a long time. A blued pan is not seasoned, these are.
Don

The "Blue" on blue steel pans is a coating that is applied to inhibit oxidation (rusting) of the pan in normal daily use, nothing more. The unique characteristic of blue steel pizza pans is that they are made of very light gauge steel so they heat up very quickly & evenly allowing the heat of the oven to reach the pizza crust more quickly. When I used Paderno blue steel pans, my trays of pizza used to take 12-15 minutes to bake as opposed to the 10-12 minutes that it takes with the 12x17 blue steel pans I now use. The Paderno pans are of course a noticeably heavier gauge of steel.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: BigT on August 09, 2012, 07:43:54 PM
My pans just arrived and I've been scrubbing them for about an hour trying to get that silvery/grey residue off of them. Are there any tips for that? As of right now, these don't look like anything I would want to eat out of. Every time I think i have it cleaned off, I take a paper towel to wipe it out and it comes out with a lot of that residue on it.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: steel_baker on August 09, 2012, 07:54:09 PM
My pans just arrived and I've been scrubbing them for about an hour trying to get that silvery/grey residue off of them. Are there any tips for that? As of right now, these don't look like anything I would want to eat out of. Every time I think i have it cleaned off, I take a paper towel to wipe it out and it comes out with a lot of that residue on it.

Having never purchased pre-seasoned blue steel pans I don't know what they would have put on them to season them. My pans from PA products came with a light coating of some kind of oil (light machine oil?) on them. It took some scrubbing with a good grease cutting dish detergent (like Dawn) and a sponge to get it clean and ready for my seasoning.

I'd say be patient and just keep doing what you're doing. Eventually the paper towel will come out clean.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: BigT on August 09, 2012, 07:57:27 PM
Having never purchased pre-seasoned blue steel pans I don't know what they would have put on them to season them. My pans from PA products came with a light coating of some kind of oil (light machine oil?) on them. It took some scrubbing with a good grease cutting dish detergent (like Dawn) and a sponge to get it clean and ready for my seasoning.

I'd say be patient and just keep doing what you're doing. Eventually the paper towel will come out clean.

Thanks. Just to be clear, I didn't buy the pre-seasoned ones - I found the link to those after I had already ordered mine.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: balthisar on August 12, 2012, 01:50:58 AM
Speaking of the pans, not sure how I missed this but Detroit Style Pizza Co. (formerly Cloverleaf in St. Clair Shores and Clinton Township) is now selling what appear to be the official blue steel pans on their website for under $10.
I hate to go a bit off topic, but I'm following this thread from China. Did Cloverleaf become Detroit Style Pizza Co.? I assume the Eastpointe Cloverleaf restaurant is still Cloverleaf. I was never really sure what the deal with the take-out Cloverleafs (Cloverleaves?) really was -- the Clinton Twp location certainly didn't make the same pies as the store on Gratiot.

I'm going to try a Detroit pie today. I've got my Roselli blue steel pans, my German yeast, and my Chinese dumpling flour, and imported American cheese. Wish me luck!
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: shuboyje on August 12, 2012, 04:26:01 PM
Yes the carryout locations that used to be cloverleaf are now Detroit Style Pizza Co., but the original Cloverleaf is still there on Gratiot making what is said to be the most authentic version of the original Buddy's recipe. 
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaHog on August 26, 2012, 11:23:09 AM
Enjoyed your blog BigT!  Couldn't help but notice the black cheese crust on every pie shown though.  Oh well...  Had a chance to try a Loui's and Det Pizza Co. recently.  Maybe Loui just had a bad dough day, was disappointing.  Det Pizza was better.
NOTE:  I still have some of the Roselli black steel pans (10x14) if anyone wants some.  $6.75 ea and will be happy to ship 'em your way. 
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: SonnyC79 on August 31, 2012, 09:45:14 AM
Just a heads up to anyone who is/was interested...I received my pre-seasoned (by the seller) pans from Detroit Style Pizza Co. late last week.  They look great!  They cost about the same as the ones that I bought from Bucket Outlet, but saved me the trouble of having to season them myself, which was nice.  I can't wait to try them out!  ;D
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: balthisar on August 31, 2012, 11:19:06 AM
Just a heads up to anyone who is/was interested...I received my pre-seasoned (by the seller) pans from Detroit Style Pizza Co. late last week.  They look great! 
They look... beautiful. I've been seasoning my pans a lot the last couple of weeks (I don't make pizza all that often; hard to get ingredients here). But I've been working on building up a slick surface on my two Roselli pans. It's not hard work, but it takes time and smoke. Yours look like two weeks of work for me!

For the non-believers, frequent users, and the people laughing at me: yes, I've been seasoning my pans without using them. Like I said above, I don't make pizza all that often (in fact for a couple on months, I'd thought I'd fried my 110 VAC mixer with 220 VAC current, but luckily I was wrong). My lovely cast iron skillet and Dutch oven are lovely seasoned due to lots of use. My two pizza pans, not so much. So I've been faking it. Every time I use the oven for any purpose, in go my pizza pans with a fresh coat of oil. And let me tell you, the difference between a single seasoning and the multiple seasonings is huge. It's like a layer of polymer (actually, it quite literally is a layer of polymer).

So now I wonder if Detroit Style is selling used pans as "pre-seasoned." Because if they are, then, I'm definitely in the market. I'm arriving on home leave next week, and I'd be willing to have a few more (although I don't make pizza often, when I do, I need a lot).

And... I think I'll try out the new Detroit Style while I'm home!
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Skee on August 31, 2012, 11:24:49 AM
So now I wonder if Detroit Style is selling used pans as "pre-seasoned."
Yes, they're selling as pre-seasoned.  I received my order yesterday (two of the four-slice pans) and am very happy with the quality of the material and they nice coating already in place.  Looking forward to using them this weekend!

Edit: Didn't catch the part about the pans being used first - looking at mine, I would say no, they are in perfect condition with no scratches or blemishes on the edges from use.  They also don't smell like pizza at all, just oil.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: SonnyC79 on August 31, 2012, 12:59:16 PM


So now I wonder if Detroit Style is selling used pans as "pre-seasoned." Because if they are, then, I'm definitely in the market. I'm arriving on home leave next week, and I'd be willing to have a few more (although I don't make pizza often, when I do, I need a lot).


I'm not sure if they are technically "used" as in used in the restaurant, as the owner of Detroit Style Pizza Co. personally emailed me to let me know that they had received my order, when they were done seasoning the pans, when they were going to be shipped, and then a tracking number.  The customer service was great!
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: pjbear05 on September 26, 2012, 09:49:00 PM
One more question has come up (that I had been meaning to ask)...

Is it possible to make this (PizzaHog's) dough without a stand mixer/dough hook?  Unfortunately, I don't own either.  I have a hand mixer, but no dough hooks.  Can you just knead the dough by hand?  From what it sounds like, the dough is pretty wet and pliable, so I imagine that hand kneading it would be tough...without adding a bunch of flour to it, at least.  Or should I try to find some dough hooks that I can attach to my hand mixer?  Any advice is appreciated!
Sonny, try to find a Cuisinart with the S-shaped plastic like (nylon?) blade.  I used this for dough and raised breads before the motor on it went South, and it was a winner.

I have another food processor, but as far as making dough, it's made by POS Corp.-stick with the real Magilla, and you won't go wrong!
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: SonnyC79 on October 01, 2012, 12:32:07 PM
Here is a pizza that I made this weekend using Detroit Style Pizza Co's pre-seasoned pans.  They worked perfectly!  Half-pepperoni/roasted red pepper & half-fig preserves/proscuitto/balsamic glaze.  We loved every bit of it!  I can't recommend this style of pizza enough.   :D
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: SonnyC79 on October 11, 2012, 03:21:33 PM
Posting in hopes that norma427 can lend her expertise  :)

Whenever I make my Detroit style pizzas, I don't get quite the crunchiness on the bottom of the pizzas as I would like.  If you look at the pictures that I have posted here, the edges and top are just about perfect, but I would really like a crunchier bottom.  I am currently baking my pizzas at 475 degrees for 15 minutes (on the lowest rack), and at that time and temperature, the cheese is getting very brown, almost burned in a couple of spots.  I dont really want to risk keeping them in there any longer than they already are, so I was wondering if you had any advice as to how to get a crunchier crust without overcooking everything else.  Would a higher temperature do anything to effect the crunch?  Maybe less oil in the pan?  I could only go up to 500, but I'm new to this, so I'm not really sure.  I appreciate any advice!
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: norma427 on October 11, 2012, 05:21:02 PM
Posting in hopes that norma427 can lend her expertise  :)

Whenever I make my Detroit style pizzas, I don't get quite the crunchiness on the bottom of the pizzas as I would like.  If you look at the pictures that I have posted here, the edges and top are just about perfect, but I would really like a crunchier bottom.  I am currently baking my pizzas at 475 degrees for 15 minutes (on the lowest rack), and at that time and temperature, the cheese is getting very brown, almost burned in a couple of spots.  I dont really want to risk keeping them in there any longer than they already are, so I was wondering if you had any advice as to how to get a crunchier crust without overcooking everything else.  Would a higher temperature do anything to effect the crunch?  Maybe less oil in the pan?  I could only go up to 500, but I'm new to this, so I'm not really sure.  I appreciate any advice!

SonnyC79,

I wish I could help you more, but I haven’t worked on this thread much.  I also usually bake in a deck oven (Baker’s Pride) so my pies may not bake like your do.  In my deck oven has a low head space.  The only pie I recall making on this thread was at Reply 120 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg81047.html#msg81047 and as you can see my pizza making skills weren’t very good back in 2009.  I have been meaning to get around to try another Buddy’s/Shields pizza, but have been working on Jet’s or regular Sicilian pizzas.    

Peter does a summary about information available to make a Buddy’s pizza at Reply 126 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg81436.html#msg81436

Your preseason pan looks very good.  I think if you would look at some of PizzaHog’s posts on this thread his information he posted would be a lot better than mine.  This is one of PizzaHog’s posts, telling how to get a crispy crust at Reply 183 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg91512.html#msg91512   I am not sure which formulation on this thread is PizzaHog’s best one, but the one at Reply 199 looks good to me.   http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg92963.html#msg92963

Maybe PizzaHog, or another member might see your post and be able to help you more.  You can also look at steel_baker’s thread for Victory Pig pizza to see how he makes his bottom crust crispy.

Norma
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: hockman4357 on October 12, 2012, 10:50:21 PM
Just a heads up to anyone who is/was interested...I received my pre-seasoned (by the seller) pans from Detroit Style Pizza Co. late last week.  They look great!  They cost about the same as the ones that I bought from Bucket Outlet, but saved me the trouble of having to season them myself, which was nice.  I can't wait to try them out!  ;D

Are the pans that you ordered and pictured the 10" x 14" ones?  It doesn't look like they carry the 12" x 17" variety.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: jsperk on October 13, 2012, 09:47:58 AM
That pizza looks real good Sonny. I have been having some tasty pizza using I think Pizza Hogs recipe. I think he posted the pdf file. His pizza look pretty awesome along with many others.
I just got the same pans as Sonny. I had sticking issues on my first cook but now my pies are sliding right out. I have one 8x10 and one 10x14.
I over cooked my pizza but still tasted good.
http://i701.photobucket.com/albums/ww16/jsperk/2012-10-07_19-05-32_465.jpg
http://i701.photobucket.com/albums/ww16/jsperk/2012-10-07_19-05-46_674.jpg
http://i701.photobucket.com/albums/ww16/jsperk/2012-10-07_20-19-57_616.jpg
http://i701.photobucket.com/albums/ww16/jsperk/2012-10-07_19-19-53_78.jpg
http://i701.photobucket.com/albums/ww16/jsperk/2012-10-07_19-20-29_267.jpg
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: SonnyC79 on October 17, 2012, 02:20:24 PM
Are the pans that you ordered and pictured the 10" x 14" ones?  It doesn't look like they carry the 12" x 17" variety.

Hockman, I ordered one 10 X 14 and one 8 X 10 from Detroit Style Pizza Co.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: SonnyC79 on October 17, 2012, 02:22:03 PM
That pizza looks real good Sonny. I have been having some tasty pizza using I think Pizza Hogs recipe. I think he posted the pdf file. His pizza look pretty awesome along with many others.
I just got the same pans as Sonny. I had sticking issues on my first cook but now my pies are sliding right out. I have one 8x10 and one 10x14.
I over cooked my pizza but still tasted good.
http://i701.photobucket.com/albums/ww16/jsperk/2012-10-07_19-05-32_465.jpg
http://i701.photobucket.com/albums/ww16/jsperk/2012-10-07_19-05-46_674.jpg
http://i701.photobucket.com/albums/ww16/jsperk/2012-10-07_20-19-57_616.jpg
http://i701.photobucket.com/albums/ww16/jsperk/2012-10-07_19-19-53_78.jpg
http://i701.photobucket.com/albums/ww16/jsperk/2012-10-07_19-20-29_267.jpg

Nice work!  Did you cook at 475, bottom rack, like me?
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: jsperk on October 21, 2012, 12:02:24 AM
Nice work!  Did you cook at 475, bottom rack, like me?
Yes, 475 bottom rack. Love this style of pizza.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Skee on October 24, 2012, 05:49:45 PM
Last night's dinner, using the Detroit Pizza pans @ 475F, bottom rack.  Used 350g of dough instead of the usual 375-400 to get a little faster turnaround on a weeknight. 
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: uplift on October 24, 2012, 08:58:49 PM
How about the Gathering Place's pizza?  To me it is the best Detroit style.  The Gathering Place is at 17 Mile Road / John R Road in Troy.  Awesome crunchy crust. 
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: SonnyC79 on October 25, 2012, 09:45:17 AM
Last night's dinner, using the Detroit Pizza pans @ 475F, bottom rack.  Used 350g of dough instead of the usual 375-400 to get a little faster turnaround on a weeknight. 

Skee, that looks delicious!  I think I'm going to try to use less dough for my next round, too.  I think mine are a bit thicker than many Detroit joints, and I'm trying to experiment to get a crispy bottom.  How was your (pizza's) undercarriage?  ;D
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: norma427 on October 25, 2012, 11:25:40 AM
I really don’t know if anyone is interested in trying the recipe Peter set-forth, or Trenton Bills recipe, but Peter said the formulation might be like a Buddy’s pizza.  At Reply 28
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg219451.html#msg219451 it can be read what Peter posted.

I sure don’t know if what I did or what Trenton Bill did will help anyone or not.

I still have a lot of work to do even if the formulation is close in getting a different cheese, or cheeses to try and also a different tomato product to try.  I also would have to work on getting a better crunch in the bottom of the pie. 

Norma
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Skee on October 25, 2012, 03:35:17 PM
How was your (pizza's) undercarriage?
Just about perfect - delicate and crispy at the same time, with a medium toast on the entire crust.  Had a little more oil on it that ideal, but I didn't see a single slice get set back down on the plate once it was picked up, they just disappeared!

Here's a pic of the crust itself:
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Skee on October 25, 2012, 03:42:35 PM
I sure don’t know if what I did or what Trenton Bill did will help anyone or not.
Thanks for pointing out that post about lower hydration - after trying 67% hydration and the 75% recipe from this thread a couple times each, neither works exactly as I want.  The first is not delicate enough (although it goes in the pan really easily) and the second is just a little too soft to make panning with minimal oil a real challenge.  For my next run I was going to split the difference and go with 71% but I'll give 70% a shot and see how it works.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: norma427 on October 25, 2012, 04:05:31 PM
Thanks for pointing out that post about lower hydration - after trying 67% hydration and the 75% recipe from this thread a couple times each, neither works exactly as I want.  The first is not delicate enough (although it goes in the pan really easily) and the second is just a little too soft to make panning with minimal oil a real challenge.  For my next run I was going to split the difference and go with 71% but I'll give 70% a shot and see how it works.

Skee,

I have never really tried a real Buddy’s pizza, so I have no idea is what I made was even close.  My TF was way off too.  I did make some attempts on a Jet’s pizza, but don’t know if they were right either.

Best of luck in whatever hydration you decide to use.  I will be looking forward to your results.   :)

Norma
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: norma427 on October 30, 2012, 10:36:05 AM
At Reply 56   http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg220358.html#msg220358  I posted a link to a bloggers article that tells some about the 2”-3” dough at Buddy’s. 

Peter also explains more at Reply 59  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg220374.html#msg220374 about the 2”-3” dough and more.

Norma
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on October 30, 2012, 05:56:23 PM
As I noted previously, Buddy's added Nutrition information for its pizzas to its website, at http://www.buddyspizza.com/nutrition.asp?Category=3. At the time, I got excited but that excitement abated almost immediately when I discovered that there was no weight information given for their pizzas. That made it very difficult to use the Nutrition information for reverse engineering and cloning purposes. However, I decided to revisit the Buddy's Nutrition information again today as a result of my assisting Norma with her attempt at a Buddy's clone pizza. What she has been doing in this regard is set forth in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg217567.html#msg217567.

In revisiting the Buddy's Nutrition information today, I was puzzled by the recitation of a "Slice" as the serving size. The reason I was puzzled is that I had been previously told that Buddy's uses an 8" x 10" pan for their 4-square pizza and a 10" x 14" pan for their 8-square pizza. I had previously reported on this at Reply 126 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg81436/topicseen.html#msg81436. What I couldn't tell is whether the "Slice" was a slice from a 4-square pizza or from an 8-square pizza. So, I decided to send an email to Buddy's to get clarification. That led to the following exchanges between me and Buddy's, which also included an exchange on the amount of cheese that Buddy's uses on its pizzas:

Me: I have been looking at the Nutrition Facts for your pizzas at your website. Can you tell me if a "Slice" refers to a slice from the larger pan or the smaller pan? As best I can tell, the two slices would have different weights. Also, as one who is watching his weight, can you tell me how much cheese is used on the two sizes of pizzas (I think you call them four-squares and eight-squares)?

Buddy's: The slices are the same size in a 4-square pizza as in an 8-square pizza.  The only difference is the number of slices offered.

We use almost 1 lb. (16 oz.) of cheese on an 8-squre pizza.  This works out to approximately 2 oz. per slice.


Me: Thank you very much for your reply. However, I am still a bit confused. I was told by a friend that the 4-square pizzas are baked in an 8" x 10" pan and that the 8-square pizzas are baked in a 10" x 14" pan. Since the larger pan is not twice the size as the smaller pan, wouldn't the sizes of the slices be different for the two pans?

Buddy's: All our pizzas are hand-made and toppings (to include cheese) are hand applied.  The nutritional values on our website are approximations because of this.  The quantity of dough used in our 4-square pizza and the amount of cheese hand-applied is half of what we use/apply on our 8-square pizza.  Please also note that our pizzas are hand-cut.  Each slice therefore, is not necessarily the same size every time.

The above exchange adds a bit more about their pizzas than we were previously able to divine from all of our research. As previously noted at Reply 126 referenced above, Buddy's reportedly uses 15 ounces of cheese on its 8-square pizzas. So, for the 4-square pizzas, one would use half of that, or 7.5 ounces. We also now know that the 4-square pizza uses half the amount of dough as the 8-square pizza. I think I have a rough idea of dough ball weights but I need to do more work to see if I am correct.

Unfortunately, I was unable to confirm the use of 15 ounces of brick cheese for the 8-square pizza in the Buddy's Nutrition information. As was noted in the EDIT of 12/11/10 to Reply 126 referenced above, Buddy's reportedly turned to Foremost Farms for its brick cheese. At one point, Buddy's even so noted that on their menus. That is no longer the case. However, if Buddy's is still using Foremost, the only brick cheese offering that I could find at the foodservice part of Foremost's website is the one described at http://www.foremostfarms.com/Commercial/pdfs/Nutritional%20Information/NDS_Brick.pdf. Unfortunately, the Nutritional information for that cheese, and notably the cholesterol content, does not line up with Buddy's Nutrition information. Norma plans to use another brand of brick cheese for her Buddy's clones, from Great Lakes. The specifications for the Great Lakes brick cheese can be seen at Reply 72 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg220464.html#msg220464. If one compares the two brands of brick cheese, it will be seen that they are quite similar. My level of discomfit with the Buddy's Nutrition information is such that I do not think that such information is reliable and may even be incorrect or inaccurate.

Peter
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: norma427 on October 30, 2012, 07:05:26 PM
Peter,

Great detective work on your part again in your questioning and logic.   8) It will be interesting to hear what your rough idea of dough balls weights are both size pizzas, after you do more work.  It is also interesting that there are new amounts of cheese to use on the two sizes of pizzas.

I can understand your level of discomfort with Buddy’s Nutrition information. 

Norma
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Skee on October 31, 2012, 11:36:00 AM
Made two pans with the 70% hydration dough (used the PizzaHog recipe with just the water varied) last night and it was probably the best version so far.  This dough was very easy to work with once warmed to room temp (did a 48-hr cold ferment), stretching to the edges with no pulling back from the corners.  The dough was then given a 2-hr rise in a 150F oven.  See first pic - it rose about one inch (350g per pan) and was very light, covered with small bubbles, and it fell slightly as I dressed it.  Second pic shows the cheese version as my son prefers it - lots of fresh basil on top with half sauced on top, half under the cheese.  Third and fourth pics show the crust for each pizza - it was light and soft inside, nicely crisp and crunchy on the outside, a small step up from the 75% hydration version.  Fifth pic shows the edge - baked at 495F on the second lowest shelf, 18 minutes for the cheese, 21 for the veggie.  The last pic is of the Detroit Style Pizza pans - great pans right out of the box and they just get better with successive uses (I wipe them clean and then apply a thin layer of fresh oil and put them back in the oven while it cools).

The cold ferment works better for my weekday schedule but I want to try this with just a couple hours of room-temp rise, see how the 70% version works.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: norma427 on October 31, 2012, 01:07:29 PM
Skee,

Your two pans of pizzas sure look very tasty!  :chef: It is good that you found the 70% hydration dough easy to work with.  I really like your choice of toppings. 

I find it interesting that your dough only rose about 1” after proofing and you proofed your dough in the pan in a 2-hr. rise in a 150 degree F oven.  I also only had about a 1” rise yesterday in my pan and I had tempered the dough for 4 hrs. at room temperature. 

What kind of flour did you use for your pizzas and what kind of oil did you use?

Norma
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Skee on October 31, 2012, 01:37:17 PM
I used KAAP flour and the oil in the pan is peanut on the bottom with a little crisco wiped on the sides and in the corners (just enough to see a thin white line in the corners) - each time I use the pans I need just a little less oil, this time it took maybe a tablespoon per pan and I could have used less (the pizzas almost popped themselves out onto the cooling rack). 

I doubt that I could have gotten the dough to rise much more without over-proofing it.  Next round I think I'll go back to 400g per small pan and increase the cooking time by a couple of minutes or lower the stone to the lowest rack position.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: norma427 on October 31, 2012, 02:29:43 PM
I used KAAP flour and the oil in the pan is peanut on the bottom with a little crisco wiped on the sides and in the corners (just enough to see a thin white line in the corners) - each time I use the pans I need just a little less oil, this time it took maybe a tablespoon per pan and I could have used less (the pizzas almost popped themselves out onto the cooling rack). 

I doubt that I could have gotten the dough to rise much more without over-proofing it.  Next round I think I'll go back to 400g per small pan and increase the cooking time by a couple of minutes or lower the stone to the lowest rack position.


Skee,

Thank you for telling me what kind of flour and oiled you used.  Your dough did look like it was proofed just right in your steel pans.  Will be looking forward to see how 400 grams of dough and your other methods work.

Norma
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on October 31, 2012, 02:58:57 PM
As a reminder, Buddy's uses a bromated flour. That would rule out all all-purpose flours since they are not bromated. That means that something like a bromated bread flour or high-gluten flour would be used by Buddy's.

Peter
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Skee on October 31, 2012, 03:19:30 PM
That means that something like a bromated bread flour or high-gluten flour would be used by Buddy's.
Noted.  Using KASL instead of KAAP is on the list of variables to try - I figure 70% with KASL will be easier to pan up.  Having never experienced a Buddy's myself, don't know what a true clone would taste like, but so far the trials have all been quite delicious!   
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: hockman4357 on November 02, 2012, 04:11:33 PM
I just received my 2 pans from Detroit Style Pizza Co. and they look great!  Time to make some pizza!!!
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: hockman4357 on November 03, 2012, 11:02:01 AM
I attempted my first Detroit style pizza last night and it was a disaster!  I used one of my new pans from Detroit Style Pizza Co. and the cheese stuck badly to the sides even after brushing the pan with ample peanut oil.  No doubt, I screwed something up.  The dough did rise at room temperature for close to 6 hours.  Maybe that was part of the problem as Hog's recipe only called for a 3-4 hour rise.

Part of the problem, I'm sure, is that I used lots of mushrooms, onions, and bell peppers along with the linguica and Italian sausage on top of the cheese which caused the crust to be soggy even after a 18 minute bake at 475 on the lowest rack in my oven.  I used medium white cheddar cheese on the edges and a combination of the white cheddar cheese and whole milk mozzarella in the middle.  I most likely used too much cheese as well.  The pizza was a soggy mess.

Anyway, what is the best way to clean the gunk stuck to the sides and bottom of the pan without using water prior to my second attempt?  The cheese is really stuck on the sides of the pan hardcore! 

The next time I will let the dough rise for only 3-4 hours, leave the vegetables off, and cut back on the cheese.  I'm determined!  Suggestions would be appreciated!
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: jsperk on November 03, 2012, 01:21:02 PM
Skee the pizza looks awesome. Great job.
Hockman, I just got my pans the other week and my first cook the dough stuck to the pan really bad. Ever since the first cook my pies slide out real easy. I usually add about 3/4 to 1 tablespoon of oil before stretching my dough out. Just spread it around real good.
I used a plastic scraper to to clean my pans.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Skee on November 05, 2012, 10:41:18 AM
Hockman - put the pans in a 500F oven and char the mess to carbon, then scrape it out, wipe with a towel, and apply a thin layer of fresh oil for another 20-minute bake.

For the next round, limit your toppings and if they're wet, saute them first to dry them out a little (mushrooms and spinach for instance).  For the cheese, calculate the total area of the pizza, then divide by 10, and that's how many ounces of cheese to apply (including the cheddar on the edges).
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: mkreitz on November 09, 2012, 09:02:29 PM
Made my first Detroit pie based on PizzaHog's recipe on post 199.  Its been a few months since I was up visiting Detroit and went to Buddy's but for my first try, I consider it a success.  Time to tweak and try a few new things.  This thread has been very helpful.  I appreciate all the time and feedback from all the forum members.  Attached are a few pics showing the pie, crust, and crumb.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Skee on November 12, 2012, 09:58:23 AM
That's a great looking pizza!  What kind of yellow cheddar did you use?
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: mkreitz on November 13, 2012, 12:23:06 PM
Thanks for the compliment!  I used a Cabot NY White Sharp cheddar around the edges and a 50/50 blend of the same cheese with regular store bought shredded Mozz.  Turned out to be a delicious pie.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: pjbear05 on December 09, 2012, 12:14:38 PM
There is also a company called World Cuisine Paderno that now sells blue steel pans, an example of which is shown at http://www.foodservicedirect.com/product.cfm/p/144753/World-Cuisine-Paderno-Blue-Steel-Baking-Sheet-13-3/4-inch-Length.htm. When I did a search for the Paderno pans, I found many sources that sell them. To see the Paderno pan sizes, go to http://www.world-cuisine.com/store/index.cfm and do a search of the catalog using the terms blue steel. I do not know offhand if the Paderno pans are sold in the same size(s) as used by Buddy's or its competitors for the Detroit style pizza. However, a few searches should answer that question, or one can go back earlier in this thread where I believe I gave the sizes that Buddy's uses.

Another possible source--for dark anodized pans rather than blue steel--is Pizza Tools. See, for example, the Sicilian pans at http://www.pizzatools.com/Square_Sicilian_Pans/30879/subgrouping.htm. Note that those pans come in depths of 1.5" and 2". The 2" deep pans are closest to the blue steel pans. For comparison purposes, the Paderno blue steel pans are 1 1/8" deep.

The advantage of the old blue steel pans that Buddy's and the others, including Jet's, were using is that they were quite cheap. And they are also deep, around 2" deep. Unless Buddy's and the others are able to find a new source of blue steel pans for their own businesses, they, too, may have to pay up for the alternative pans now being sold to the trade.

Peter
Pete, thanks for the link to Paderno, their blue steel baking sheets would be just the ticket, and I have a local retailer not far from the house.  That will make a great self gift.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on December 09, 2012, 12:26:44 PM
Pete, thanks for the link to Paderno, their blue steel baking sheets would be just the ticket, and I have a local retailer not far from the house.  That will make a great self gift.

pjbear,

After the traditional suppliers of the blue steel pans in the Metro Detroit area stopped selling the pans, another company, the Detroit Style Pizza Co, which is also in the pizza business, started offering the pans. They can be purchased at http://detroitstylepizza.co/detroit-style-pizza-pans/. I can't say how the Paderno pans compare with the the ones that the Detroit Style Pizza Co is selling but DSPC pans seem to be the real deal.

Peter
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: redox on February 13, 2013, 08:25:18 PM
No wonder people aren't using the USPS. I ordered a pan from http://detroitstylepizza.co/detroit-style-pizza-pans/ on Sunday. This morning I got an email from the company saying my pan had been shipped. Tracking info tells me it will be delivered next Tuesday. (today is Wednesday) I live an an hour and half's drive away. I just don't like driving to Detroit because my car's tires kick up the shell casings on the street and it mars my paint job. If my Kevlar overcoat was back from the cleaners I might've gone anyway. Oh well, eventually I'll be able to make a Detroit-style pie. I can say this because people are starting to refer to my town as "little Detroit.''
I think I've been spoiled by Amazon Prime.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: gschwim on February 16, 2013, 12:45:12 PM
In case no one posted it on Pizzamaking.com, world champion Shawn Randazzo posted a video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rm3ULLorwkQ) a couple of weeks ago, describing and demonstrating how he makes his Detroit style pizzas.

Some interesting points:

1.  It looks like he is using only one kind of cheese (or cheese blend) all the way across.  It doesn't look like he's putting one kind of cheese around the edges and another in the middle.

2.  He puts the sauce on after the bake, saying that it allows the other ingredients to bake more evenly.  Also, he warms the sauce.

3.  Most interesting to me, the video shows him putting the pie, in the pan, in the oven, which is a deck oven.  But when he takes it out, the pan is gone.  Apparently, he takes the takes the pizza out of the pan at some point and lets it bake on the bare oven surface for a bit - I would guess, to make the bottom crust crispier.

Gene
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: redox on February 16, 2013, 02:46:41 PM
My Detroit Style Pizza Co. pan arrived today. The included care & tips sheet recommended using a lower hydration than 65% for the first few bakes. How low can I go and still get good Detroit style pizza? Has anyone done a drier dough and have it turn out well? I'd post a scan I made of the instruction sheet but I can't figure how to reduce the 819 KB size of the pdf.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: norma427 on February 16, 2013, 03:11:53 PM
In case it hasn't been posted, world champion Shawn Randazzo posted a video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rm3ULLorwkQ) a couple of weeks ago, describing and demonstrating how he makes his Detroit style pizzas.

Some interesting points:

1.  It looks like he is using only one kind of cheese (or cheese blend) all the way across.  It doesn't look like he's putting one kind of cheese around the edges and another in the middle.

2.  He puts the sauce on after the bake, saying that it allows the other ingredients to bake more evenly.  Also, he warms the sauce.

3.  Most interesting to me, the video shows him putting the pie, in the pan, in the oven, which is a deck oven.  But when he takes it out, the pan is gone.  Apparently, he takes the takes the pizza out of the pan at some point and lets it bake on the bare oven surface for a bit - I would guess, to make the bottom crust crispier.

Gene


Gene,

That was a very good video you found of Shawn Randazzo making a Detroit style pizza.

In this video of Shawn Randazzo making the World Championship Detroit style pizza he does bake the whole way in the oven in the steel pan.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-d3DRNF4YHY

Norma
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: TXCraig1 on February 16, 2013, 03:12:47 PM
I have the same pans. I missed that part of the instructions. My first bake was 80% HR. The cheese stuck a little, but the dough didn't at all. I greased it pretty well with butter flavored Crisco.

I did add an additional coat of seasoning to my pans before using them.

I'm sure you can make a fine pie at 65%. I wouldn't go less than 12 hours fermentation - 24 would be better - probably all in balls so that it is very relaxed when you stretch it into the pans.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on February 16, 2013, 03:13:14 PM
Gene,

At the time I posted Reply 464 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg225253/topicseen.html#msg225253, it appears that Shawn Randazzo was using mozzarella cheese and brick cheese. Those two cheeses are mentioned at the Detroit Style Pizza Co website at, http://detroitstylepizza.co/aboutus/, under the section entitled Authenticity. However, it was not clear whether he was blending the two cheeses or applying them separately. The video you referenced may support such a blend but it is not absolutely dispositive of the issue.

Applying the sauce toward the end is not unique. Via 313 does it, and Klausie's does it also. They also use deck ovens. Buddy's applies the sauce along with everything else that is to go onto the pizza at the outset, as Chicago Bob confirmed and discussed at Reply 1026 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg230188/topicseen.html#msg230188. This makes sense for Buddy's since they use conveyor ovens.

Norma and I discussed the possibility of finishing her Detroit style pizzas on the deck outside of the pan (see Replies 209 and 210 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg222322.html#msg222322), but in her case she concluded that it was not necessary.

Peter
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: TXCraig1 on February 16, 2013, 03:22:41 PM
To my taste, you can't beat the "freshness" of the sauce added post bake.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: redox on February 16, 2013, 04:44:09 PM
My Detroit Style Pizza Co. pan arrived today. The included care & tips sheet recommended using a lower hydration than 65% for the first few bakes. How low can I go and still get good Detroit style pizza? Has anyone done a drier dough and have it turn out well? I'd post a scan I made of the instruction sheet but I can't figure how to reduce the 819 KB size of the pdf.

Ok, reduced the size of the pdf and converted it to jpg, sorry about the low quality, I couldn't figure out a way to do it any better.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: TXCraig1 on February 16, 2013, 04:52:47 PM
What are you trying to understand or figure out?
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: redox on February 16, 2013, 05:42:59 PM
What are you trying to understand or figure out?

If you're referring to me, I thought I'd post the care & tips sheet that came with my pizza pan in case it might be of interest to anyone who was thinking of getting one or seasoning another company's pan. I had trouble reducing the 819 KB pdf to get it under the 128 KB limit. And then I couldn't actually attach a pdf (I know, I know, I missed the ''Allowed file types: jpg, gif, png, txt'' info. I swear I'm sober but that's what I was trying to figure out.  :-[
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: gschwim on February 16, 2013, 05:44:51 PM
Gene,

That was a very good video you found of Shawn Randazzo making a Detroit style pizza.

In this video of Shawn Randazzo making the World Championship Detroit style pizza he does bake the whole way in the oven in the steel pan.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-d3DRNF4YHY

Norma

Yes, I saw that video, and was surprised to see him doing it differently in the new video.  I've never heard of taking the pie out of the pan mid-bake.  Maybe it's something he came up in the months since the contest?  Or something he did before, but did not want and/or have time to do in the contest?

I'm shy, but maybe someone would like to email Randazzo for an explanation.

Gene
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: redox on February 16, 2013, 05:48:06 PM
Can you scan to a jpeg?  Or if the instruction sheet is not too many pages and nothing else works for you, if you have a digital camera, you can photograph the pages and upload the photos.  If you choose the "Web ready" picture size, you should be okay.

I can only scan to a .pdf.
I've got an old digital camera and a new iPhone so I'll check that possibility next time.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: gschwim on February 16, 2013, 05:48:52 PM
Gene,

Applying the sauce toward the end is not unique. Via 313 does it, and Klausie's does it also.

Peter

Peter,

Just to clarify:  I was aware of people putting the sauce on after baking; I've even done it myself.  What was new - to me, anyway - was warming the sauce.  I've always just put the sauce on at room temperature, same as when putting the sauce on pre-bake.  Call me a slow learner, but it never occurred to me to heat the sauce separately.

Gene
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: TXCraig1 on February 16, 2013, 05:51:02 PM
Peter,

Just to clarify:  I was aware of people putting the sauce on after baking; I've even done it myself.  What was new - to me, anyway - was warming the sauce.  I've always just put the sauce on at room temperature, same as when putting the sauce on pre-bake.  Call me a slow learner, but it never occurred to me to heat the sauce separately.

Gene


That is how I've been doing it. Just warm, I don't bring it to a boil.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: gschwim on February 16, 2013, 05:55:24 PM
I can only scan to a .pdf.
I've got an old digital camera and a new iPhone so I'll check that possibility next time.

What you did was fine.  I hadn't seen your subsequent post when I wrote mine.

Gene
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: gschwim on February 16, 2013, 05:56:46 PM
That is how I've been doing it. Just warm, I don't bring it to a boil.

I've been putting the sauce on at room temperature and relying on the hot pizza to warm it up.  But I'll try pre-warming it and see if it makes a difference.

Gene
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: norma427 on February 16, 2013, 08:26:31 PM

I'm shy, but maybe someone would like to email Randazzo for an explanation.

Gene


Gene,

I can email Shawn Randazzo if you want to try to find out an explanation to why the pie is in the oven without the pan. 

Norma
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaioloCow on February 16, 2013, 10:07:26 PM
Hi!

These are some Detroit-style pizzas I made earlier today.  I tried to follow TXCraig1's process as closely as possible, but it didn't work out perfectly due to my lack of the Ischia culture; I overcompensated while trying to convert to IDY and, thus, the dough ended up getting a night of cold fermentation to slow down yeast activity.  Immediately after being mixed the dough spent four hours in bulk at room temp (68F), overnight in the fridge in bulk, and 6 hours balled in the pans.  I had enough dough to make one 9x13 inch pizza and one 12" pizza.  In terms of area, the pan's were actually pretty close (117 square inches for the 9x13 pizza and approximately 113 square inches for the pizza that was 12 inches in diameter), so the thickness factors were fairly similar.  The recipe I used was:

100% high-gluten flour
75% hydration
2% salt
2% evoo
.7% IDY
Thickness factor: .1375

Next time I want to use a whole milk mozzarella (this was part-skim, so it broke down too fast).  I will also let the sauce warm up a bit more before going on the baked pizza; the sauce on the round one was a little on the cool side.  The crust cooked very well; it had a nice crunch on the bottom and was very tender on the inside.

Pictures:
1) 9x13 pizza just before being topped
2) 12" pizza just before being topped
3) 12" pizza topped with half pepperoni and half cheese
4) Baked 12" pizza with sauce added
5) Slice of round pizza
6) Undercrust of slice
7) Crumb shot

Thanks!
-Jake
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: TXCraig1 on February 16, 2013, 10:09:34 PM
Looks great. I like the nice dark edge.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: gschwim on February 16, 2013, 10:45:32 PM
Gene,

I can email Shawn Randazzo if you want to try to find out an explanation to why the pie is in the oven without the pan. 

Norma

That would be great - and I'm sure others would like to know why, too.

Thanks!

Gene
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: norma427 on February 16, 2013, 11:05:11 PM
That would be great - and I'm sure others would like to know why, too.

Thanks!

Gene


Gene,

I did email Shawn.  I don’t understand either if Shawn is trying to teach other people how to make a Detroit style pizza why he would place the pizza back on the deck at the end of the bake.  It just seems to me that is the way he might make half-baked pizzas to be sent.  I could be wrong on that though.  You might be right that it is just to crisp the crust more, but I don’t see why there would be any problems with just using a steel pan to create a crispy bottom.

Norma
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaioloCow on February 16, 2013, 11:10:19 PM
Thanks for the nice comments, TXCraig1!

Quick question; when you guys do Detroit-style, do you begin to stretch the dough to fit the pans immediately after dividing it into balls, or do you allow it to proof and relax in the pan and then stretch it just before topping the pizza?

Thanks!
-Jake
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: TXCraig1 on February 16, 2013, 11:13:32 PM
Thanks for the nice comments, TXCraig1!

Quick question; when you guys do Detroit-style, do you begin to stretch the dough to fit the pans immediately after dividing it into balls, or do you allow it to proof and relax in the pan and then stretch it just before topping the pizza?

Thanks!
-Jake

I do about 12 hours in bulk, ball it, let it rest 6 hours, stretch to fit the pan, then let it rise in the pan for 6 more hours.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: norma427 on February 16, 2013, 11:34:57 PM

Quick question; when you guys do Detroit-style, do you begin to stretch the dough to fit the pans immediately after dividing it into balls, or do you allow it to proof and relax in the pan and then stretch it just before topping the pizza?

Thanks!
-Jake

Jake,

What I do now all depending on if I am using an emergency dough or a cold fermented dough is to ball and then place the dough ball in the greased pan.  Either put it in the oven with the light on for an emergency dough, or put it into the fridge for the cold ferment.  Then press the dough out and temper again until the dough ferments enough.  I just use IDY though.  No matter if I use an emergency dough or a cold ferment the second ferment is needed for me.  I do cover my pans for either way and even for the cold ferment so the dough ball and skin doesn’t dry out.

Norma
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: gschwim on February 16, 2013, 11:52:43 PM
Gene,

I did email Shawn.  I don’t understand either if Shawn is trying to teach other people how to make a Detroit style pizza why he would place the pizza back on the deck at the end of the bake.  It just seems to me that is the way he might make half-baked pizzas to be sent.  I could be wrong on that though.  You might be right that it is just to crisp the crust more, but I don’t see why there would be any problems with just using a steel pan to create a crispy bottom.

Norma

Well, let's hope he answers, because I'm curious.  Maybe it was a half-bake for a mail order pizza; however, my impression is that it was a "staged" bake, done for the camera.

Keep in mind, also, that there's a "time-lapse cut" in the video in between putting the pizza in and taking it out, so who knows what happened during the several "missing" minutes?  In fact, I replayed the video a couple of times just to make sure that the beginning and ending shots are of the same pizza.  It looks like it is.

I'm also curious what temperature he used.

Gene
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: norma427 on February 17, 2013, 08:17:55 AM
Gene,

Hopefully Shawn replies to my email, but I can understand if he doesn‘t reply. Shawn is a busy man trying to promote Detroit style pizzas, running his pizzerias and the selling of Detroit style steel pans.  I would guess he is preparing to participate in the championships again soon too. 

Did you ever try PizzaHog’s recipe for a Buddy’s clone at Reply 199  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg92963.html#msg92963  I plan on trying PizzaHog’s recipe and his methods in the next couple of weeks.

Norma
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Ev on February 17, 2013, 09:12:52 AM
Actually, last night I made 2 DS pies using previously frozen dough. For whatever reason, the bottoms did not brown enough when the rest of the pies were done, so I removed them from the pans and put them right on the stones for a couple minutes to crisp up. Worked great.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: gschwim on February 17, 2013, 12:43:00 PM
Gene,

Hopefully Shawn replies to my email, but I can understand if he doesn‘t reply. Shawn is a busy man trying to promote Detroit style pizzas, running his pizzerias and the selling of Detroit style steel pans.  I would guess he is preparing to participate in the championships again soon too.  

Did you ever try PizzaHog’s recipe for a Buddy’s clone at Reply 199  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg92963.html#msg92963  I plan on trying PizzaHog’s recipe and his methods in the next couple of weeks.

Norma

Norma,

I'll understand if Randazzo doesn't reply, too, but Buddy's has been pretty good about responding to Peter's inquiries, so I'm hoping.  From what I've seen so far, pizza bakers seem to like to talk about pizza.

Funny that you mention Pizzahog's recipe just now, because I was thinking of trying it tonight.  I did try it once before, but don't recall the results, so I want to try again.

I'm also thinking of trying a higher hydration - 75% or even 80%.  Peter Reinhart has a ciabatta recipe with an 80% hydration.  Ciabatta loaves, of course, are very light, with large holes, which is what I'm after.  And I want to up the IDY to 1 tsp (to 500 g of flour) to get the 1 hour rise that I'm getting with the recipe I linked to on the "Two Bills" thread.  If the only element I'm keeping from Pizzahog's recipe is the amount of salt, I suspect that it's like the guy who has the original axe that George Washington used to chop down the cherry tree - except that, over the years, he's had to replace the handle and the axe head a few times.  Anyway, I'm thinking, the higher the hydration, the easier it will be to spread the dough across the pan.

Also, having used butter-flavored Crisco in the past to grease the pan, it occurred to me to try using actual clarified butter, which is what I use whenever I pan-fry something.

My main goal, at the moment, is not so much developing a recipe, it's getting the cheddar not to stick to the inside of the pan.  Last night, I did an experiment, where I put cheddar cheese on two sides of the pan, and simply extended the mozzarella I've been putting in the middle, to the other two sides.  The mozzarella stuck much less, so now I'm also going to try mixing the cheddar directly with the mozzarella (50/50?) and spreading the combination all the way across the pan.

If any of this yields a good result, I'll let you know.

Gene
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: gschwim on February 17, 2013, 01:03:53 PM
Actually, last night I made 2 DS pies using previously frozen dough. For whatever reason, the bottoms did not brown enough when the rest of the pies were done, so I removed them from the pans and put them right on the stones for a couple minutes to crisp up. Worked great.

I can see the logic of putting the pie right on the deck oven.  Yes, the bottom of the pan gets hot, but it's smooth steel, while deck oven surfaces are porous stone, so I can see why one might get a better result on the stone.  Obviously, there's a reason why the Neopolitan wood-burning pizza oven makers line the surface with stone instead of steel.

Gene
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on February 17, 2013, 01:15:20 PM
Obviously, there's a reason why the Neopolitan wood-burning pizza oven makers line the surface with stone instead of steel.
Gene,

Our Neapolitan pizza experts can correct me if I am wrong but I think the reason why Neapolitan wood-fired ovens use stone baking surfaces is because that is the way it has always been done, going back hundreds of years, in many cases using materials indigenous to Naples and the surrounding areas. The use of metal baking surfaces in lieu of stone surfaces is of more recent vintage. For example, the factory RotoFlex deck oven comes with a metal baking surface, but it can be retrofitted to use stone if the customer desires.

Peter
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: TXCraig1 on February 17, 2013, 01:34:35 PM
Obviously, there's a reason why the Neopolitan wood-burning pizza oven makers line the surface with stone instead of steel.

It has everything to do with the thermal conductivity of the stone. At 900F+, it has to be very low. If you made the deck out of steel, at 900F the bottom of the pie would be black and burned to a crisp within seconds of landing. It would be a disaster.  There is even a noticeable difference between the clay-like Biscotto di Sorrento in my oven and the slightly more conductive firebrick in other ovens I've used.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: norma427 on February 17, 2013, 01:40:03 PM
Norma,

Funny that you mention Pizzahog's recipe just now, because I was thinking of trying it tonight.  I did try it once before, but don't recall the results, so I want to try again.

I'm also thinking of trying a higher hydration - 75% or even 80%.  Peter Reinhart has a ciabatta recipe with an 80% hydration.  Ciabatta loaves, of course, are very light, with large holes, which is what I'm after.  And I want to up the IDY to 1 tsp (to 500 g of flour) to get the 1 hour rise that I'm getting with the recipe I linked to on the "Two Bills" thread.  If the only element I'm keeping from Pizzahog's recipe is the amount of salt, I suspect that it's like the guy who has the original axe that George Washington used to chop down the cherry tree - except that, over the years, he's had to replace the handle and the axe head a few times.  Anyway, I'm thinking, the higher the hydration, the easier it will be to spread the dough across the pan.

If any of this yields a good result, I'll let you know.

Gene


Gene,

I am wondering about trying a higher hydration than 75% for a Detroit style pizza..  I have tried doughs with a higher hydration than 75% on the Pizzarium thread and on another Sicilain thread and for me there are hard to manage in terms of how to mix the dough and also how to keep the crumb from falling in the bake.  

I had few successes, but more failures than successes.  If you plan to use less salt than PizzaHog used I would think you might have more problems, but wish you the best of success with your methods and what you plan to do.  Let us know how it works out.  You never know how something will turn out until you actually try it yourself.

Norma

Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on February 17, 2013, 01:43:35 PM
Gene,

To add to my last post, a few months ago, a member at the PMQ Think Tank, himself a skilled professional, mentioned that he saw Shawn's dough and that it was one step above a batter and proofed for a long time. See http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=13656&hilit=#p84302. Sometimes with a wet dough it is hard to get adequate bottom crust browning while baking everything on top of the dough without extending the normal bake time or using more oil in the pan to "fry" the bottom crust. It will be interesting to see what Shawn says should he decide to answer, but possibly he "decks" the pizza as a way of finishing the bake within the desired time and without having to resort to using more oil in the pan.

Also, the fact that the stone is porous does not mean that it absorbs moisture from the dough, as is commonly believed. It is the heat in the stone that finishes the bake. There are many pizza operators who start pizzas on screens or disks and then "deck" them onto the oven's stone surface toward the end of the bake to get more bottom crust browning.

Peter
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: gschwim on February 17, 2013, 02:45:53 PM
Gene,

To add to my last post, a few months ago, a member at the PMQ Think Tank, himself a skilled professional, mentioned that he saw Shawn's dough and that it was one step above a batter and proofed for a long time. See http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=13656&hilit=#p84302. (http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=13656&hilit=#p84302.) Sometimes with a wet dough it is hard to get adequate bottom crust browning while baking everything on top of the dough without extending the normal bake time or using more oil in the pan to "fry" the bottom crust. It will be interesting to see what Shawn says should he decide to answer, but possibly he "decks" the pizza as a way of finishing the bake within the desired time and without having to resort to using more oil in the pan.

Also, the fact that the stone is porous does not mean that it absorbs moisture from the dough, as is commonly believed. It is the heat in the stone that finishes the bake. There are many pizza operators who start pizzas on screens or disks and then "deck" them onto the oven's stone surface toward the end of the bake to get more bottom crust browning.

Peter

Peter,

Interesting comment re Shawn's dough, because that's exactly what I was thinking:  as close to a batter a possible.  Ideally, I would love to be able almost to pour it into the pan.  Which is why I was looking at ciabatta recipes and ciabatta-making videos, such as this one (That's alotta Ciabatta! Start to Finish. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v24OBsYsR-A#ws)), where a woman is making a ciabatta from a dough with a 98%(!) hydration.  (Here is a link to a printed version of the recipe she used:  That's alotta Ciabatta! Start to Finish. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v24OBsYsR-A#ws)).

I actually tried something similar, once, in a cast iron frying pan, on my stove top.  The dough puffed up, like a marshmallow - so I'm wondering if, rather than the weight of ingredients on top squashing the dough down, the ingredients on top might be necessary to keep the dough from puffing up.

I find that if I use a lot of oil on the bottom of the pan, it's hard to spread the dough out, but with a very wet dough, that probably would not be a problem.  Indeed, with ciabatta, baked outside the confines of a pan, the object seems to keep the dough from spreading out.

UPDATE:  Someone actually did use the ciabatta recipe (but halving the ingredients) to make a traditional round pizza (and referred to it on this site, by the way).  Here's a link to the Web page describing the process, which is a bit different from the ciabatta process, with photos:  http://sites.google.com/site/hollosyt/quickrusticciabattapizza (http://sites.google.com/site/hollosyt/quickrusticciabattapizza)

I suppose you could (should?) cross-post this recipe to another thread, but I think it's also appropriate here, because I'm going to try the recipe tonight, to make a Buddy's pizza.

NOTE ALSO, the warning in the video:  One needs to keep an eye on the dough while it's mixing.  Because it's so wet, it has a greater-than-usual tendency to "crawl" up the paddle/hook, all the way into the mixer's innards.  And, per the woman in the video, it may be necessary, during the high-speed mixing phase, physically to lean on the mixer, to stop it from "walking" across the counter.

Gene
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: gschwim on February 18, 2013, 12:15:45 AM
Just made my first Detroit style pizza using the recipe and method I mentioned above, in Reply 522: https://sites.google.com/site/hollosyt/quickrusticciabattapizza

First of all, definitely stay near the mixer, at least after the first couple of minutes.  I had to hold mine down to keep it from "walking" off the edge of the counter.

As for the dough, I let it triple in size, per the instructions and after I put it in the pan, I let it rest for ten minutes.  The dough, right after rising, is very big and "poofy"; when you scrape it out of the container, it deflates, but reinflates during the rest period.  And after baking, the dough is very light and airy.  Very good and, interestingly, light - I didn't feel stuffed after eating four slices.  I also oiled the pan by brushing on melted clarified butter; that idea worked well, too.

But the main thing, of course, is the dough.  I would love someone else to try the recipe and let me know what he thinks.

Mixing the mozzarella and cheddar together and spreading the mixture all the way across worked well, I thought.  Cheese still sticking to the sides of the pan, though.  I hope I'll have better luck with the pans I just ordered from Detroit Style Pizza Company.

Another problem:  Even with preheating my oven to 525 degrees and setting the pan on a pizza stone, the dough is not "frying," even after 12 minutes, and the cheese is browned, making me wary of baking it any longer.  I would appreciate any thoughts anyone cares to share on how to get a crispy bottom crust in a home oven without burning the cheese on top.

It just occurred to me:  Maybe the high hydration is preventing the bottom from getting crisp.  After all, the cracker-style pizza, I believe, uses a very low hydration; I understand that some people have even used the recipe for matzo dough to make cracker style pizzas.  It also would explain why Shawn Randazzo put his pie directly on the oven floor in his video:  As Pete mentioned, someone watching Randazzo make a pie said that Randazzo's dough was "almost a batter."  So maybe a high-hydration dough requires a finish on the oven surface to crisp the bottom?

Only one way to find out for sure:  Next weekend, when I experiment again, I'll try taking the pie out of the pan after, say, six minutes and let it cook the rest of the way directly on a pizza stone.  Because the sauce goes on after the bake, there should be no mess.

Gene


Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: norma427 on February 20, 2013, 06:29:34 PM
Gene,

If you or anyone else is interested what Shawn Randazzo has been up to lately and where that video you referenced at Reply 488 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg237778.html#msg237778 might have come from you might be interested in what I posted at Reply 1525 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg238677.html#msg238677

Norma
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: gschwim on February 20, 2013, 11:50:11 PM
Gene,

I am wondering about trying a higher hydration than 75% for a Detroit style pizza..  I have tried doughs with a higher hydration than 75% on the Pizzarium thread and on another Sicilain thread and for me there are hard to manage in terms of how to mix the dough and also how to keep the crumb from falling in the bake.  

I had few successes, but more failures than successes.  If you plan to use less salt than PizzaHog used I would think you might have more problems, but wish you the best of success with your methods and what you plan to do.  Let us know how it works out.  You never know how something will turn out until you actually try it yourself.

Norma

I'm actually thinking of trying an experiment in the other direction, say 65% hydration.  Though I have no research on the subject, I just have a sense that Buddy's, at least when I lived in Detroit, did not use a high hydration dough.

Gene

Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: norma427 on February 21, 2013, 09:37:06 AM
Gene,

Since you posted you might want to try 65% hydration for a Buddy’s pizza you might want to look at this thread started by Britt (Skee) http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,23495.0.html

Peter’s summary on what the differences are for a Buddy’s and Jet’s pizza are at Reply 7 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,23495.msg238665.html#msg238665

I didn’t think that the Buddy’s pizza I purchased and was sent to me was that high in hydration either, but then I didn’t taste it right out of the oven and I also did a fairly long second bake.

Norma
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: gschwim on February 21, 2013, 11:25:46 AM
Gene,

Since you posted you might want to try 65% hydration for a Buddy’s pizza you might want to look at this thread started by Britt (Skee) http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,23495.0.html

Peter’s summary on what the differences are for a Buddy’s and Jet’s pizza are at Reply 7 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,23495.msg238665.html#msg238665

I didn’t think that the Buddy’s pizza I purchased and was sent to me was that high in hydration either, but then I didn’t taste it right out of the oven and I also did a fairly long second bake.

Norma

I mainly want to see if the lower hydration would make the dough crisp better on the bottom.  Trust me, even if the "65% experiment" isn't a success, I will still eat the result...  :^)

Gene
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on February 21, 2013, 11:37:29 AM
Gene,

I, too, would be interested in seeing what a 65% Buddy's clone dough looks and feels like--especially since I don't recall ever seeing photos of Buddy's dough balls--and also what the finished pizza looks like in terms of crumb structure. To give you an idea as to what a 65% hydration Detroit style dough looks like, you might take a look starting at around 2:38 of the YouTube video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lxLBp4-8dE that was made to feature Jet's Pizza. From what I have been given to understand, the Jet's dough has a hydration of around 65%. You might also note at 3:05 that the dough balls do not look particularly highly hydrated and have surface irregularities that I do not think you would see with more highly hydrated doughs. Maybe Norma can comment on the Jet's video and the hydration issue based on her experience. Also, there is the question of "double kneading" and subjecting the dough to a lot of stretching and pulling, and what these terms really mean. Clearly, from photos that I have seen, several of the well known pizza operators who specialize in the Detroit style are using very highly hydrated dough to make their pizzas, including the Detroit Style Pizza Co, Via 313 and Klauzie's.

It would have been nice to be able to show you a good cross section of the crumb of a Jet's square pizza but I could not find a photo outside of what was shown by PizzaHog in the Jet's thread.

Peter
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: norma427 on February 21, 2013, 12:37:33 PM
I mainly want to see if the lower hydration would make the dough crisp better on the bottom.  Trust me, even if the "65% experiment" isn't a success, I will still eat the result...  :^)

Gene


Gene,

I really don't think the dough will crisp better on the bottom based on my first experiments for a Jet's pizza, but would be interested if you tried a lower hydration what results you would get.  If interested see the next post to Peter.

Norma
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: gschwim on February 21, 2013, 12:40:32 PM
Gene,

I, too, would be interested in seeing what a 65% Buddy's clone dough looks and feels like--especially since I don't recall ever seeing photos of Buddy's dough balls--and also what the finished pizza looks like in terms of crumb structure. To give you an idea as to what a 65% hydration Detroit style dough looks like, you might take a look starting at around 2:38 of the YouTube video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lxLBp4-8dE that was made to feature Jet's Pizza. From what I have been given to understand, the Jet's dough has a hydration of around 65%. You might also note at 3:05 that the dough balls do not look particularly highly hydrated and have surface irregularities that I do not think you would see with more highly hydrated doughs. Maybe Norma can comment on the Jet's video and the hydration issue based on her experience. Also, there is the question of "double kneading" and subjecting the dough to a lot of stretching and pulling, and what these terms really mean. Clearly, from photos that I have seen, several of the well known pizza operators who specialize in the Detroit style are using very highly hydrated dough to make their pizzas, including the Detroit Style Pizza Co, Via 313 and Klauzie's.

It would have been nice to be able to show you a good cross section of the crumb of a Jet's square pizza but I could not find a photo outside of what was shown by PizzaHog in the Jet's thread.

Peter


Peter,

By coincidence, a uniformed agent of the federal government just delivered my preseasoned pans from the Detroit Style Pizza Co., with the Norma Seal of Approval stamped right on the box...  :^)  They look a lot like the "raw" pan I seasoned yesterday with another method I am trying, so now I can compare and if my pan works as well, I'll share the method I used and everyone can save some money.

I watched the video and agree with you:  Judging by the dough balls' height, that definitely is not a high-hydration dough.  Below is a photo of my own dough with a 70-75% hydration.  (I don't remember exactly, but I'm pretty sure that it's 70%.)  As you can see, especially with the dough ball on the right, the dough, unconfined to a small container, spreads out quite a bit, much more than the Jet's dough balls.

I made a note to try a 65% hydration over the weekend; depending on the result, maybe I'll even try 60%, just to see how far I can go.

Gene
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: norma427 on February 21, 2013, 12:42:49 PM
Gene,

Maybe Norma can comment on the Jet's video and the hydration issue based on her experience.

It would have been nice to be able to show you a good cross section of the crumb of a Jet's square pizza but I could not find a photo outside of what was shown by PizzaHog in the Jet's thread.

Peter


Peter,

In the video of the Jet’s pizza the dough does look to be about 65% hydration, at least to me.  There doesn’t look like there is any stickness to the dough or to the employees fingers.  The dough does look soft though.

Tommy Nott posted a side view of a slice of a real Jet’s pizza at Reply 141 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8247.msg162104.html#msg162104  It can be seen what height that slice was.  If Gene is interested he can see the Jet’s attempt I made at Reply 144 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8247.msg162459.html#msg162459  and the crumb photos and baked height also can be seen if you go down more in the pictures.  Gene can also see segfault Jet’s pizza at Reply 156 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8247.msg164019.html#msg164019  For me the differences in a Jet’s pizza is the caramelized edges and how soft the Buddy’s is to eat.  Jet’s doesn’t pile the cheese on the edges like Buddy’s does.  Tommy Nott also posted more pictures of a Jet’s pizza at Reply 122 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8247.msg158444.html#msg158444

If Gene goes back to the other Jet’s pizzas I made he can see that my bottom crust didn’t brown well.  Maybe it was my steel pans that weren’t seasoned enough or something else I did wrong.

Norma
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Serpentelli on February 26, 2013, 09:29:20 PM
I talked my wife through PizzaHog's DS dough recipe at lunch today and she pressed the dough into these Calphalon Non-Stick pans I bought at TJ Maxx for $8.99. While I typically abhor non-stick cookware, for the purpose of DS pies they are "DA BOMB". Pizzas slide out with one finger onto the cooling rack.

John K
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Serpentelli on February 26, 2013, 09:33:01 PM
The crust cooked up very nicely!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22PJBzeGeJI# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22PJBzeGeJI#)

John K
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on February 26, 2013, 09:47:28 PM
John K,

Very nice job with the DS pizzas.

Did you and your wife follow PizzaHog's recipe exactly, including the size of the pans?

Peter
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: norma427 on February 26, 2013, 09:51:53 PM
John,

I agree, very nice job with the Detroit style pizzas.  I guess you are now hooked too.   :-D

Norma
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Serpentelli on February 26, 2013, 10:06:47 PM
John K,

Very nice job with the DS pizzas.

Did you and your wife follow PizzaHog's recipe exactly, including the size of the pans?

Peter
Peter,

Followed percentages exactly.
Flour = KAAP 500g
Water = 375g
IDY = 3g
Salt = 7g

Pans are 9 x 13

500F for about 18 mins total

John K
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Serpentelli on February 26, 2013, 10:07:45 PM
John,

I agree, very nice job with the Detroit style pizzas.  I guess you are now hooked too.   :-D

Norma

Hooked indeed!  :drool:

John K
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Serpentelli on February 26, 2013, 10:27:41 PM
Peter,

Sorry for the fragmented response. That recipe made 2 balls.

John K
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: redox on April 01, 2013, 10:51:36 AM
There's an article in the Detroit Free Press today about DS pizza with a video showing Shawn Randazzo talking about the style.
http://tinyurl.com/Detroit-Style-Pizza (http://tinyurl.com/Detroit-Style-Pizza)

I still can't get that nice caramelized cheese around the outside, though.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: gschwim on April 01, 2013, 12:03:43 PM
My pizzas are starting to come out okay, but I'm still having a problem with cheese sticking to the sides of the pan.  Last time, on another poster's advice, I tried a solid fat, butter-flavored Crisco, but still had a problem.

Even then, for home, I'm okay, but I'm thinking of the cafe my partners and I are contemplating.  In NYC, where I am, the Health Dept. is really strict.  One of my restaurant-operator customers told me the other day that the Health Dept. had popped in for one of their spot inspections, a couple of days before.  They only come when the restaurant is open and serving customers (which really disrupts their workflow), and they almost always find something wrong.  My customer and I suspect that these inspections are the restaurant equivalent of a speed trap, designed not so much to ensure healthful operations as to raise money for City coffers, so they make it a point to find something wrong; this time, it was a cloth that someone had draped over an oven handle.

So I'm worried about these guys coming in and finding about-to-be-used pizza pans with baked-on cheese crust stuck to the sides from a previously-baked pizza.  No problem with an "ordinary" pizza pan; we could just scrub the pans out with soap and water and maybe even some steel wool.  But of course, we can't do that with DS pans.

My understanding is that Buddy's just wipes pans out between bakes.  Maybe the Detroit health authorities are less strict, but my sense is that the pizzas come out "clean," that the only residue in the pan after the pizza is removed is oil that can be wiped out with a cloth.  But with my pizzas, I've always had a thin layer of crust at least somewhere in the pan that I had to remove with water and a nylon scrubber.

Norma runs a commercial operation, so if you're reading this, Norma, perhaps you could tell me how you treat your pans between bakes?  Are they clean enough that you just need to wipe out the oil, or do you need to deal with crust residue and if yes, how?  If there is any crust residue, do you remove all traces of residue between bakes or just get the pans "reasonably" clean during business hours and save a more complete cleaning for the end of the day?

Of course, I would appreciate any thoughts/experiences anyone else has cares to share on (1) what oil/fat they use in their pans, (2) the condition of the pans immediately after removing a pizza and (3) how - and how thoroughly - they clean the pans when they plan to cook another one in the same pan, right away, especially in a commercial setting.

Thanks!

Gene
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Serpentelli on April 01, 2013, 12:31:13 PM
Gene,

Just my 2 cents, (and I agree with everyone who hates non-stick surfaces --- I hate them too!) but ever since switching over to these Calphalon non-stick pans I got on the cheap at TJMaxx, my problem is exactly the opposite! That is to say that the dough/cheese won't stick enough to the pan edges, which becomes a problem if you want good cheese caramelization. Its been an even bigger problem recently since I've been doing a 1-2 min pre-bake of the dough (trying to get an airier crumb structure before the topping weigh the dough down)

As I said, this info is posted as an FYI --- it may have no bearing on your needs. :)

John K
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: gschwim on April 01, 2013, 02:09:50 PM
Gene,

Just my 2 cents, (and I agree with everyone who hates non-stick surfaces --- I hate them too!) but ever since switching over to these Calphalon non-stick pans I got on the cheap at TJMaxx, my problem is exactly the opposite! That is to say that the dough/cheese won't stick enough to the pan edges, which becomes a problem if you want good cheese caramelization. Its been an even bigger problem recently since I've been doing a 1-2 min pre-bake of the dough (trying to get an airier crumb structure before the topping weigh the dough down)

As I said, this info is posted as an FYI --- it may have no bearing on your needs. :)

John K

Thanks, maybe I'll give the Calphalon pan a try.  I live in NYC.  Do all the TJ Maxx's have these pans?

Gene
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Serpentelli on April 01, 2013, 02:26:46 PM
Gene,

Not sure, but I'll bet they are commonly availabale. PM your address to me and I'll send you one of the ones I got! Free! :D

John K
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: norma427 on April 01, 2013, 07:03:10 PM
My pizzas are starting to come out okay, but I'm still having a problem with cheese sticking to the sides of the pan.  Last time, on another poster's advice, I tried a solid fat, butter-flavored Crisco, but still had a problem.

Even then, for home, I'm okay, but I'm thinking of the cafe my partners and I are contemplating.  In NYC, where I am, the Health Dept. is really strict.  One of my restaurant-operator customers told me the other day that the Health Dept. had popped in for one of their spot inspections, a couple of days before.  They only come when the restaurant is open and serving customers (which really disrupts their workflow), and they almost always find something wrong.  My customer and I suspect that these inspections are the restaurant equivalent of a speed trap, designed not so much to ensure healthful operations as to raise money for City coffers, so they make it a point to find something wrong; this time, it was a cloth that someone had draped over an oven handle.

So I'm worried about these guys coming in and finding about-to-be-used pizza pans with baked-on cheese crust stuck to the sides from a previously-baked pizza.  No problem with an "ordinary" pizza pan; we could just scrub the pans out with soap and water and maybe even some steel wool.  But of course, we can't do that with DS pans.

My understanding is that Buddy's just wipes pans out between bakes.  Maybe the Detroit health authorities are less strict, but my sense is that the pizzas come out "clean," that the only residue in the pan after the pizza is removed is oil that can be wiped out with a cloth.  But with my pizzas, I've always had a thin layer of crust at least somewhere in the pan that I had to remove with water and a nylon scrubber.

Norma runs a commercial operation, so if you're reading this, Norma, perhaps you could tell me how you treat your pans between bakes?  Are they clean enough that you just need to wipe out the oil, or do you need to deal with crust residue and if yes, how?  If there is any crust residue, do you remove all traces of residue between bakes or just get the pans "reasonably" clean during business hours and save a more complete cleaning for the end of the day?

Of course, I would appreciate any thoughts/experiences anyone else has cares to share on (1) what oil/fat they use in their pans, (2) the condition of the pans immediately after removing a pizza and (3) how - and how thoroughly - they clean the pans when they plan to cook another one in the same pan, right away, especially in a commercial setting.

Thanks!

Gene

Gene,

The steel pans I use are all seasoned well now and I don’t have sticking issues when removing the Detroit style pizzas from the steel pans (this took awhile for that to happen), but yes there is still caked on residue left in the steel pans and some caramelized cheese still gets stuck on the sides and in the corners, but the pizzas can be removed fairly easy after a thin metal spatula is taken around all the edges.  After a few pans are accumulated from baking pizza in them (dirty ones), I do use paper towels to remove what residue I can.  I do wipe them with paper towels again before I grease them with shortening before placing another dough ball in the steel pans.  If you want to take pictures of what my steel pans look like after the bake and before I grease again I can take those photos.

When I go to market on Mondays the pans are wiped out again with paper towels before they are greased. 

I don’t know about your food inspectors in NYC, but in Pa. (our food inspectors are strict too) if I have a question to see what the food inspectors allow, I can always call and asked if something is allowed. 

I also have the same problems like in NYC, that inspectors do pop in and just start inspecting no matter how busy you are.  I try to keep things neat, but that isn’t always possible, but I do try to adhere to keeping my washing rags in the containers that are meant for that.  I did get a violation this year for not having enough bleach in those containers.  When you are wiping stuff down all the time it is hard to keep the solution at the right level.  One wipe of something and the solution might be okay, and after the next wipe, the solution might be off.  It is all what you have to deal with when running a commercial food business though.

Norma
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: balthisar on April 02, 2013, 09:54:34 PM
I just want to mention that the cheese eventually stops sticking to the pan. Clearly there's nothing wrong with dried, old cheese that goes into a 500+ degree oven, but health inspectors in some jurisdictions might not agree.

Lots of references to Shawn Randazzo up-thread. I enjoy his enthusiasm, and having read a Free Press article today, discovered this: http://detroitstylepizza.com/become-a-certified-detroit-style-pizza-maker/ (http://detroitstylepizza.com/become-a-certified-detroit-style-pizza-maker/)

Again, I admire his passion, but I'm having trouble coming to grips with his "official" certification program. Given that he started at Cloverleaf (even better than Buddy's in my humble opinion!), can we now say that Buddy's, Cloverleaf , et al aren't officially certified? OR my own delicious pies for that matter?

Someone mentioned being able to email Shawn. Any way to find out more?
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: gschwim on April 06, 2013, 01:05:38 AM
Gene,

Not sure, but I'll bet they are commonly availabale. PM your address to me and I'll send you one of the ones I got! Free! :D

John K

John,

That's very generous.  Thanks!

Uh... what does "PM" mean?

Gene
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: gschwim on April 06, 2013, 01:10:43 AM
Gene,

The steel pans I use are all seasoned well now and I don’t have sticking issues when removing the Detroit style pizzas from the steel pans (this took awhile for that to happen), but yes there is still caked on residue left in the steel pans and some caramelized cheese still gets stuck on the sides and in the corners, but the pizzas can be removed fairly easy after a thin metal spatula is taken around all the edges.  After a few pans are accumulated from baking pizza in them (dirty ones), I do use paper towels to remove what residue I can.  I do wipe them with paper towels again before I grease them with shortening before placing another dough ball in the steel pans.  If you want to take pictures of what my steel pans look like after the bake and before I grease again I can take those photos.

When I go to market on Mondays the pans are wiped out again with paper towels before they are greased. 

I don’t know about your food inspectors in NYC, but in Pa. (our food inspectors are strict too) if I have a question to see what the food inspectors allow, I can always call and asked if something is allowed. 

I also have the same problems like in NYC, that inspectors do pop in and just start inspecting no matter how busy you are.  I try to keep things neat, but that isn’t always possible, but I do try to adhere to keeping my washing rags in the containers that are meant for that.  I did get a violation this year for not having enough bleach in those containers.  When you are wiping stuff down all the time it is hard to keep the solution at the right level.  One wipe of something and the solution might be okay, and after the next wipe, the solution might be off.  It is all what you have to deal with when running a commercial food business though.

Norma

I'll probably have to bake a pizza in one of my customer/partners' commercial kitchen and after I remove the pie, let them show me how clean I need to get it.

Thanks, everyone, for your comments and advice.

Gene
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Serpentelli on April 06, 2013, 07:10:17 AM
John,

That's very generous.  Thanks!

Uh... what does "PM" mean?

Gene

Gene,

Check you mailbox for a "PM" (personal message) from me.

John K
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on April 06, 2013, 08:00:55 AM
Uh... what does "PM" mean?
Gene,

For future reference, see http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20056.0.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20056.0.html).

Peter
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Serpentelli on April 12, 2013, 04:05:50 PM
Gene,

My lovely bride has promised to stick this in the mail on Monday.....when she mails the taxes :'(

John K

PS: Addresses withheld to keep away all the fans! :D
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: gschwim on April 12, 2013, 11:46:27 PM
Gene,

My lovely bride has promised to stick this in the mail on Monday.....when she mails the taxes :'(

John K

PS: Addresses withheld to keep away all the fans! :D

John,

I really don't know how to thank you.  Are you sure you wouldn't like me to send you some money?  You must not have much left after paying your taxes!

Gene
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Serpentelli on April 13, 2013, 12:03:54 AM
Just sharing the love, Gene!

You can buy me a slice of your favorite NY pie the next time I'm in NYC! :drool:

John K
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: gschwim on April 13, 2013, 05:10:29 PM
Just sharing the love, Gene!

You can buy me a slice of your favorite NY pie the next time I'm in NYC! :drool:

John K

Will do!  Hope you like coal oven thin crust.  One of my favorite NYC pizzerias, not just for the pizza, but the atmosphere, is Angelo's on E. 57th St.:  http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/angelos-coal-oven-pizzeria-new-york?select=DXDBOkTMK-gtSOrm5Mrcpw#DXDBOkTMK-gtSOrm5Mrcpw (http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/angelos-coal-oven-pizzeria-new-york?select=DXDBOkTMK-gtSOrm5Mrcpw#DXDBOkTMK-gtSOrm5Mrcpw)

And you can have more than one slice.

Gene
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: gschwim on April 13, 2013, 05:22:06 PM
Norma,

As promised, attached are photos of my first try at baking longer, at a lower temperature - 25 minutes at 375 degrees, to be precise.

As you can see, the pizza came out a bit undercooked, so next time, I'm going to try 400 degrees and if that still doesn't work, then 425, and maybe I'll cover the pie with a piece of foil until near the end if I see that the cheese is starting to burn.

Also, I baked the pie directly on the middle rack in my home oven; maybe I'll try putting the pan on a pizza stone, next time.

The pizza still tasted pretty good and the crumb was light and airy, but the bottom was not as crisp as I would have liked it to be.  You'll also notice how, when I slid the pie out of the pan, the cheese on top slopped over the edge.

On the positive side, the problem I was having, with cheese sticking to the side of the pan, pretty much vanished.  For the first time, I was able to clean the pan out with a paper towel.  So I'm guessing that the high temperature (500 degrees) that I had been using was "burning off" the oil (or in my case, butter-flavored Crisco) and "fusing" the cheese to the metal.

So I'm hoping that I can find a combination of temperature and cooking time that will bake the pie within a reasonable amount of time, make the bottom crispy and not cause the problem of cheese sticking to the sides.

Gene
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: shuboyje on April 13, 2013, 05:40:12 PM
I did and untopped test to see how my seasoning was going at 450F for 25 minutes and the result was perfect for my taste.  Crisp and evenly brown.  Reminded me a lot of cloverleaf which is what I'm after for the underside. 
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: norma427 on April 13, 2013, 07:42:43 PM
Norma,

As promised, attached are photos of my first try at baking longer, at a lower temperature - 25 minutes at 375 degrees, to be precise.

As you can see, the pizza came out a bit undercooked, so next time, I'm going to try 400 degrees and if that still doesn't work, then 425, and maybe I'll cover the pie with a piece of foil until near the end if I see that the cheese is starting to burn.

Also, I baked the pie directly on the middle rack in my home oven; maybe I'll try putting the pan on a pizza stone, next time.

The pizza still tasted pretty good and the crumb was light and airy, but the bottom was not as crisp as I would have liked it to be.  You'll also notice how, when I slid the pie out of the pan, the cheese on top slopped over the edge.

On the positive side, the problem I was having, with cheese sticking to the side of the pan, pretty much vanished.  For the first time, I was able to clean the pan out with a paper towel.  So I'm guessing that the high temperature (500 degrees) that I had been using was "burning off" the oil (or in my case, butter-flavored Crisco) and "fusing" the cheese to the metal.

So I'm hoping that I can find a combination of temperature and cooking time that will bake the pie within a reasonable amount of time, make the bottom crispy and not cause the problem of cheese sticking to the sides.

Gene

Gene,

Thanks for posting your results when baking longer at a lower temperature.  Your pizza does look tasty!

Norma
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: gschwim on April 13, 2013, 11:14:13 PM
Gene,

Thanks for posting your results when baking longer at a lower temperature.  Your pizza does look tasty!

Norma

Thanks, Norma - but I think your pizzas look better!  I'm glad you think my pizza looks good, but it definitely was undercooked; I think the reason the cheese slopped over where it did was because the edge-cheese didn't bake enough to form a solid "border" and the cheese just pushed through it.

Also, note how I'm holding the slice in the last photo.  That's because if I held it from one end, the whole thing would droop over because the bottom didn't bake enough.  In fact, even holding the slice the way I was, it was hard to keep it from folding and falling into the palm of my hand. 

I was going to try 25 minutes at 425 next, but I think I'll try shuboyje's idea, on the post just ahead of yours:  25 minutes at 450, since he's so happy with his results.

Gene
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: norma427 on April 14, 2013, 07:41:39 AM


I was going to try 25 minutes at 425 next, but I think I'll try shuboyje's idea, on the post just ahead of yours:  25 minutes at 450, since he's so happy with his results.

Gene

Gene,

I think Jeff’s idea is good to bake at 25 minutes at 425 degrees F.  You might want to watch your pizza though because different ovens do bake differently.

I am interested when Jeff posts more about his bakes of his Detroit style pizzas with a lower temperature to try and make a Cloverleaf pizza.  It shows how I really don’t know much about different Detroit style pizzas.  I thought all of them were basically the same, but since Jeff has tasted different Detroit style pizzas from different pizza businesses he sure knows how they are.

Norma
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: G671 on April 14, 2013, 09:31:07 PM
Hello everyone.  First time posting here. Thanks to everyone for the great info. I've been having very good results at home. 

Just wanted to talk about "cheese" in trying to replicate Buddy's.. I've heard that they use white cheddar (which I've used. Tastes great, but a bit too salty when used too much), and I've recently used brick cheese, which definitely had a much smoother flavor.  So, I guess my question is, what is the correct ratio of these cheeses?  Does Buddy's use only brick cheese on their pizza? Do they actually use white cheddar at all?  And, do they mix these with mozzarella at all?  Most recently, I just used brick cheese, with some white cheddar for the edges of the pan.  Just wondering if I need to throw mozzarella in there.

Here's an older pic of one of my earlier pizza attempts. I used the Detroit pan from Detroit Pizza Co.  I think it was all white cheddar on this one, mixed with mozzarella (about 50/50).   I don't make my own dough. I like to keep it simple in the kitchen (I'm a guy) LOL  I've been using Pillsbury pizza crust in the tube (the "Artisan" whole grain one).  I have found that it unrolls PERFECTLY, and fits the pan perfectly, right out of the tube. No fuss.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: JetBoy on April 26, 2013, 01:37:34 AM
Howdy everybody!  I just signed up to the site officially, but I've been glued to this thread for about the last week. I'm up to page 25 right now and I'll have it all wrapped up tomorrow.

I used to run 2 Jet's pizza's in the 90's before there were hundreds of them.

I'm an East sider and I also worked at Mama Rosa's Pizzeria on Mack Ave. near Alter Rd where I strictly made the dough. Up to 10 batches a night on Friday's and Saturday's using a huge Hobart mixing machine.

Thanks for all the awesome info you've already provided on Buddy's pizza. I love it. Shield's is a close second in my opinion. Green Lantern would be my 3rd favorite.

It's been a little while since I've been making pies, but it feels like it was just yesterday.
I can't wait to try these pies out and hopefully I'll have something to add.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: JetBoy on April 26, 2013, 03:22:20 AM
Gene,

I, too, would be interested in seeing what a 65% Buddy's clone dough looks and feels like--especially since I don't recall ever seeing photos of Buddy's dough balls--and also what the finished pizza looks like in terms of crumb structure. To give you an idea as to what a 65% hydration Detroit style dough looks like, you might take a look starting at around 2:38 of the YouTube video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lxLBp4-8dE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lxLBp4-8dE) that was made to feature Jet's Pizza. From what I have been given to understand, the Jet's dough has a hydration of around 65%. You might also note at 3:05 that the dough balls do not look particularly highly hydrated and have surface irregularities that I do not think you would see with more highly hydrated doughs. Maybe Norma can comment on the Jet's video and the hydration issue based on her experience. Also, there is the question of "double kneading" and subjecting the dough to a lot of stretching and pulling, and what these terms really mean. Clearly, from photos that I have seen, several of the well known pizza operators who specialize in the Detroit style are using very highly hydrated dough to make their pizzas, including the Detroit Style Pizza Co, Via 313 and Klauzie's.

It would have been nice to be able to show you a good cross section of the crumb of a Jet's square pizza but I could not find a photo outside of what was shown by PizzaHog in the Jet's thread.

Peter

Jet's has a separate recipe for their round pizza dough and their square pizza dough. The one's pictured in the video are the round dough balls. This explains the hydration level looking around 65%
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on April 26, 2013, 06:30:36 AM
Howdy everybody!  I just signed up to the site officially, but I've been glued to this thread for about the last week. I'm up to page 25 right now and I'll have it all wrapped up tomorrow.
yesterday.
JetBoy,

It's always good to have another member on board who is intimately familiar with the Detroit style pizza. Maybe you have already noticed from this thread, but there is another thread that gets down into the weeds on the Buddy's and other Detroit style pizzas at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.0.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.0.html). That thread is only 94 pages long, but the main action starts at around Reply 28 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg219451.html#msg219451 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg219451.html#msg219451) and builds from there.

Peter
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on April 26, 2013, 07:52:43 AM
Jet's has a separate recipe for their round pizza dough and their square pizza dough. The one's pictured in the video are the round dough balls. This explains the hydration level looking around 65%
JetBoy,

I don't want to steer this thread in the direction of Jet's but if you look at the video at about 2:46 you will see the worker taking a bag of flour from a big stack of flour bags with the words "Jet's Square Pizza" on them. I would be very surprised if Jet's uses a hydration of around 65% for its dough for the round pizzas. Most pizza makers, and especially young workers with little experience, would have great difficulty handling skins for a regular style pizza with a 65% hydration, and especially so if the protein level of the flour is below that of high-gluten flour. That hydration makes sense for the square pizzas because the dough is simply placed in pans and spread out.

FYI, there is also a Jet's thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8247.msg71152.html#msg71152 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8247.msg71152.html#msg71152) in case you are interested or want to comment on what is covered there. I also took a stab recently at comparing the Jet's and Buddy's pizzas in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,23495.0.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,23495.0.html). You might be able to offer some useful commentary there also if you are so inclined.

Peter
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: JetBoy on April 26, 2013, 11:49:28 AM
Great point Pete! It was 3:00 am and I had been looking at this thread for about 6 hours before I watched the video and posted.  :)

After watching the video again with fresh eyes, you're right. I do remember pouring a little bit of oil around the dough ball for the last couple of spins around the Hobart. They also coat the table with a thin layer of oil to help manage rolling the balls.

No more Jet's in this thread from me. I'm off to start the dough for my Buddy's style pizza!
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: JetBoy on April 26, 2013, 02:22:28 PM
This was posted in the Detroit News in the early 80's:

Buddy's Deep Dish Detroit Style Pizza

CRUST:
1 pkg yeast (dissolved in 1/4 c warm water)
2 tsp dry milk (add to yeast & proof 10 min)
1 tsp sugar
4 1/4 c flour
1 tsp salt
2 Tbs olive oil
1 1/4 c warm water
Stir all ingr. plus yeast mxt. in large bowl using only half flour.
When blended add remaining flour. Knead, cover, rise till double.
Make 2 balls.

SAUCE:
2-15 oz cans tomato puree (Or one 29 oz can)
2 Tbs olive oil
1 tsp salt
1/2 tsp garlic salt
2 cloves garlic, minced
1/2 tsp basil
1 tsp oregano
2 tsp sugar
Combine all & simmer 15 minutes.

Place dough in 2 heavily oiled 9 x 12 pans.
Pepperoni on dough, then mushrooms then 4 cups of cheese.
Scatter green pepper & onions on cheese.
Then 3 long rows of sauce on top.
Bake preheated 450 for 20-25 minutes.

Please notice that this recipe uses less moisture % than what I am seeing here on page 20 of this thread.

I'm working on the Sauce right now. Has anyone tried the above mentioned recipe?  How did it turn out?  Obviously you must add water to tomato paste, so I'm wondering if anybody's recipe is similar but tweaked a bit. Thanks!

Geeze, I just went to the other thread you mentioned above Pete. It likes like I've got another 60 pages to read! =)
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on April 26, 2013, 02:41:49 PM
JetBoy,

I do not recall that any member has ever reported using either of the two recipes you referenced. But I can tell you that the dough recipe is not the one used by Buddy's. Buddy's dough comprises only flour, water, yeast and there is even a question as to whether any salt is used in the Buddy's dough (although most of our members do use salt). As for the Buddy's pizza sauce, Buddy's has previously said that it uses a blend of Stanislaus tomato products, to which it adds water and seasonings. All of the above, and a lot more, is discussed in excruciating detail in the Two Bills thread I referenced a few posts ago.

Peter
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: JetBoy on April 26, 2013, 03:01:46 PM
Thanks again Pete!

I'm using Pizza Hog's dough recipe from post 199. I mixed up the sauce according to the above referenced post and it's not very good at all. I'm going to add some water, perhaps crushed tomatoes and more sugar. I'm just getting into the Two Bills thread right now.

A new Buddy's is opening later this year near Hall Rd. and Hayes (where Teddy's Times Square used to be) for the Michiganders out this way that would be interested.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: shuboyje on April 26, 2013, 06:39:34 PM
You probably made the dough back when Mama Rosas was good, sadly they went downhill a few years back.  Not that it's bad, just not what it was when I was first introduced to it.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: JetBoy on April 26, 2013, 07:09:40 PM
You probably made the dough back when Mama Rosas was good, sadly they went downhill a few years back.  Not that it's bad, just not what it was when I was first introduced to it.

Thanks man!  It became so routine to me I could practically do it with my eyes closed. I got pretty darn good at eye measurement went it came to cutting out the pieces to be rolled into balls too. It used to be a pretty darn good pie. I haven't been there in a couple years, but the owner Tony passed away a few years ago. I hear they even charge for the sesame seeds on the crust now.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Chicago Bob on April 26, 2013, 09:00:44 PM
Thanks again Pete!

I'm using Pizza Hog's dough recipe from post 199. I mixed up the sauce according to the above referenced post and it's not very good at all. I'm going to add some water, perhaps crushed tomatoes and more sugar. I'm just getting into the Two Bills thread right now.

A new Buddy's is opening later this year near Hall Rd. and Hayes (where Teddy's Times Square used to be) for the Michiganders out this way that would be interested.
JetBoy,
The spice amounts look pretty good on that sauce. I would omit the oil and not cook the sauce. It needs cut by at least maybe 50% with water.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: redox on May 18, 2013, 09:22:13 PM
Tonight's pizza. Now off to Showtime for the fight.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Tscarborough on May 18, 2013, 11:29:06 PM
'dats what I'm talking bout.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Chicago Bob on May 18, 2013, 11:35:47 PM
Yes!  ^^^  That is an all around faaantastic looking pie....but the crumb; Momma Mia!!  :drool:
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: redox on May 18, 2013, 11:36:45 PM
This was my best yet, finally got some serious crispy cheese goodness around the edges.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: redox on May 18, 2013, 11:38:38 PM
Yes!  ^^^  That is an all around faaantastic looking pie....but the crumb; Momma Mia!!  :drool:
Decent crumb for a 3 hour rise.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: norma427 on May 19, 2013, 09:18:16 PM
Tonight's pizza. Now off to Showtime for the fight.

Jay,

Great looking pizzas!  8)

Norma
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: redox on May 20, 2013, 04:18:44 PM
Norma,
Thanks, it was my best one so far. I finally got to taste the caramelization of the cheese around the edge. I proofed the dough in a 90° oven because I didn't have much time. It worked out pretty well. I'm still amazed how small changes in the process cause big differences in the finished product. 
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: norma427 on May 20, 2013, 07:50:09 PM
Norma,
Thanks, it was my best one so far. I finally got to taste the caramelization of the cheese around the edge. I proofed the dough in a 90° oven because I didn't have much time. It worked out pretty well. I'm still amazed how small changes in the process cause big differences in the finished product.

Jay,

I am glad you finally got to taste the caramelization of the cheese around the edges.  ;D I think that is one of the best parts about a Detroit style pizza.  I do temper my doughs in the heated case at market and the doughs do ferment pretty fast.  Your idea to temper in the oven was good.  I agree that small changes in the process can cause big differences in a finished Detroit style pizza.

Norma
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: gschwim on May 20, 2013, 11:56:08 PM
Gene,

Not sure, but I'll bet they are commonly availabale. PM your address to me and I'll send you one of the ones I got! Free! :D

John K

John,

Just thought you'd like to know:  I did find the 8 x 8 pans at TJ Maxx in NYC.  Not only that, but I found a 9 x 13 size for, I think, $7.99.  I could be mis-remembering that, but I do remember being impressed by how cheap they were.  So, in case you didn't know, if you want to make a large DS pizza, there's a pan for you!
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: gschwim on May 21, 2013, 12:04:38 AM
Tonight's pizza. Now off to Showtime for the fight.

At what temperature, and for how long, did you bake the pizza in the last photo, with the wonderful browned bottom crust?

Gene
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: gschwim on May 21, 2013, 01:14:56 AM
JetBoy,
The spice amounts look pretty good on that sauce. I would omit the oil and not cook the sauce. It needs cut by at least maybe 50% with water.

I have to say, I've been happiest with 6-in1 all-purpose ground tomatoes in heavy puree, straight out of the can.  But for a more traditional - and simple - sauce that I also use sometimes, you can't go wrong with Jim Lahey's basic tomato sauce in his book, My Pizza:

1 28 oz. can peeled Italian plum tomatoes
20 g (about 2 tbsp) extra-virgin olive oil
2 g (1/4 tsp) fine sea salt

I just take the tomatoes out of the can (but don't discard the juice in which the tomatoes were packed; you might want to add some back in, depending on the final consistency you want), squish 'em in my hands in a bowl, add the other ingredients and stir.

Also, one thing I learned:  the brand of tomato makes a big difference.  I had been using San Marzano tomatoes, even buying DOP San Marzano tomatoes from an Italian specialties store.  Then I read a review, in some cooking magazine, comparing whole canned tomatoes.  Muir Glen came in first, followed by Hunt's (and Hunt's came in first for diced tomatoes).  Muir Glen seems a bit pricey, while 28 oz. Hunt's is often on sale here in NYC for 99 cents/can, so I tried Hunts, found it to be much better and now it's the only brand I'll use.

In a separate survey, Hunt's also took first place in ketchup...  :^)

Gene
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: redox on May 21, 2013, 12:13:38 PM
At what temperature, and for how long, did you bake the pizza in the last photo, with the wonderful browned bottom crust?

Gene
Gene,
I baked at 475° for 15 minutes on the bottom rack in my electric oven with an exposed bottom element. That seems to be the sweet spot in my oven for this kind of pie.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: gschwim on May 22, 2013, 11:42:39 PM
Gene,
I baked at 475° for 15 minutes on the bottom rack in my electric oven with an exposed bottom element. That seems to be the sweet spot in my oven for this kind of pie.

I'll try it.  Thanks!

Gene
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Chefcurt on July 17, 2013, 10:57:02 PM
I worked at Buddy's for four years! This was twenty years ago so I honestly don't remember the dough recipe.  I do remember that we made it at 8:00 am every morning. It was made fresh every day for that day only.  The dough was mixed in the mixer, then we portioned it. After it was portioned into the pans it was stretched twice. This is where the double kneading comes in!  Once to get it close to the edges of the pans then the second stretch to 'fit" the pans.  We then added pepperoni to some and then topped them all with cheese.  The timing was everything.  It needed the rest time between stretches so the large batch size made that possible.  It took three hours every day to do this.  The busier the day the more hands were used to make it happen.  Still always three hours. Wish I had the recipe for ya!  The pans made a HUGE difference as well.  They were all seasoned at one location then delivered to the stores when needed.  In the four years I worked there we only had one delivery of new pans.  It was a big deal for only a couple dozen pans.  We had to go through all 300 pans and replaced only 24 that were too bent up for use.  The pans were oiled before every portioned dough was added.  This helped keep the dough and cheese from sticking.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: gschwim on July 18, 2013, 09:03:09 PM
Chefcurt,

What oil did you use to oil the pans before putting the dough in?

Any idea how they seasoned the pans?

Gene
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: norma427 on July 18, 2013, 10:50:35 PM
Chefcurt,

I just have to ask if you recall if Buddy's dough had any salt in it.  I have been wondering about that.

Norma
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on July 19, 2013, 06:48:14 AM
Chefcurt,

Thank you for sharing your recollections of your former work experience at Buddy's, even if it was many years ago. You helped confirm what was reported in item 2 at Reply 126 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg81436.html#msg81436 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg81436.html#msg81436) about how and when the dough was made at Buddy's. You also helped clarify what was meant by "double kneading", which was the subject of much debate and speculation as to what those words meant. You also answered Gene's (gschwim's) question at Reply 297 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg126403/topicseen.html#msg126403 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg126403/topicseen.html#msg126403) about the very large numbers of pans that Buddy's must have used in the course of a day.

As with Norma, I am also interested in whether Buddy's used/uses salt in their dough. The Buddy's Nutrition information as given at their website at http://www.buddyspizza.com/nutrition.asp?Category=3 (http://www.buddyspizza.com/nutrition.asp?Category=3) suggests very low levels of sodium in the Buddy's dough. The FDA is very strict about how sodium is reported, and sodium is not the type of nutrient that gets destroyed or modified during baking, so according to my analysis either the Buddy's Sodium levels as reported are wrong or are calculated incorrectly or in some unusual way. I raised this issue with Buddy's and they responded with this statement: We have no reason to believe the information on our website is inaccurate. Please note there is a statement below the nutritional information on our website that has further information.... Buddy's is not required by law to provide Nutrition Facts as is required of packaged goods but if they are going to provide something that is a semblance of Nutrition Facts, the information should be correct in my opinion.

Peter
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: gschwim on July 20, 2013, 12:05:49 PM
We had to go through all 300 pans and replaced only 24 that were too bent up for use.  The pans were oiled before every portioned dough was added.  This helped keep the dough and cheese from sticking.

Do I understand you correctly, then, that if I want to pursue my dream of opening a Detroit style pizzeria, I will need to buy 300 pans?  150 8x10 and 150 10x14?

And all 300 pans were filled with dough in the morning?

How many times were the 300 pans refilled during the day - i.e., how many pizzas did you serve per day?

What oil did you use to oil the pans?
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: TXCraig1 on July 21, 2013, 12:42:35 PM
Do I understand you correctly, then, that if I want to pursue my dream of opening a Detroit style pizzeria, I will need to buy 300 pans?  150 8x10 and 150 10x14?

How else would you do it? I don't see how you could have less pans than you would expect to sell pies during your busiest service.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Chefcurt on July 21, 2013, 09:42:42 PM
Chefcurt,

I just have to ask if you recall if Buddy's dough had any salt in it.  I have been wondering about that.

Norma

Sorry, I honestly don't remember the dough recipe. 
Curt
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Chefcurt on July 21, 2013, 09:50:51 PM
Do I understand you correctly, then, that if I want to pursue my dream of opening a Detroit style pizzeria, I will need to buy 300 pans?  150 8x10 and 150 10x14?

And all 300 pans were filled with dough in the morning?

How many times were the 300 pans refilled during the day - i.e., how many pizzas did you serve per day?

What oil did you use to oil the pans?

Some days more, some days less. Depending on the day.  It was open for quite a few years before I got there so predicting sales was pretty accurate.   It was a very busy restaurant.  We stretched all the dough for the entire day in the morning. Any left over at the end of the day were pitched.   

The oil was a basic vegetable oil.  The pans were seasoned at a different location and sent to us.  If I recall they were filled with oil then ran through a pizza oven at very high heat.  Thats all I know.

Curt
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: BigT on October 06, 2013, 12:38:04 PM
Just adding my two cents. I have been tinkering with the recipe posted by PizzaHog in reply 199. I had the same problem that others have discussed where the bottom of the crust is pale and not crispy or even firm at all. I had somewhat of a breakthrough last night and got a nice crispy crust on the bottom. Here was my setup:

- Placed oven rack to the lowest rack directly over the exposed heating element at the bottom of the oven. Placed my pizza stone on the rack
- Preheated to 475 and let it preheat for a good half hour or so.
- Put the pan on the stone and bake for about 17-18 minutes.

The cheese around the edge did not start to brown/burn, but that was about as long as I felt I could let it go. The crust on the bottom was pretty good, not really crispy/fried like you might find at Jet's, but a definitely a little bit of crunch on the bottom crust.

I am guessing this works better than just placing the pan on an oven rack without a pizza stone b/c the stone conducts heat better into the pan/crust, causing the crust to cook faster & hotter.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: ashleigh on January 14, 2014, 02:45:05 AM
Hello everyone!

I've just spent the weekend reading over this thread and while I don't have any awesome stories of growing up eating at the original locations, I have had my fair share of pizzas from Buddy's in Livonia & Farmington Hills as well as the Shield's in Troy.  Living in SC now, I can't get anything like it and although I stop for a pizza when I'm back in Detroit, it just isn't enough!

I'd like to start out with saying I'm extremely new to baking anything that doesn't come out of a box or prepackaged/frozen, so much of this has gone over my head and I apologize in advance for any questions that seem really basic!

I know after reading through the thread that all-purpose flour isn't what's used and I know one poster said that they were planning on trying KASL (the glossary is a lifesaver!), but I see that it is available only in very large quantities.  How would the KA high gluten flour and/or the KA perfect pizza blend flours compare? (Ignore the recipes on the labels.)

I know post 199 has been the go to recipe for some time for being able to get the proper crust and the Detroit News recipe has been thrown out, but there's a recipe on the Cooking Channel's website that supposedly is directly from Buddy's and is what led me on my path to this forum in the first place?  Any thoughts on that recipe?  (http://www.cookingchanneltv.com/recipes/buddys-cheese-pizza.html (http://www.cookingchanneltv.com/recipes/buddys-cheese-pizza.html))

Thanks so much for all of the information so far and all of the effort you've put into recreating it!  I've learned a lot already!
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: jsaras on January 14, 2014, 10:53:28 AM
The difference between KASL and their "Perfect Pizza Blend" is that you can make a pizza with KASL  :o

If you actually have PPB on hand and you want to try the recipe on the package, it translates to:

Flour - 100%
Water - 65%
IDY - 1.4%
Salt - 1.6%
Oil - 2%

I tossed my bag after trying to make pizza with it using that recipe and several other standard formulations.  It is probably best used as bench flour.

Finding high gluten flour such as KASL at a supermarket is nearly impossible.   Many feel that KASL is a bit too high in gluten and too chewy.  You can substitute Pillsbury Bread Flour, Gold Medal Better for Bread Flour or King Arthur Bread Flour (listed in my order of preference) for recipes that call for KASL.  You'll just have to knock down the water in the formulation by 1-2% and you should be fine.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Triglet on March 10, 2014, 10:24:48 AM
I tried this recipe (reply #199) a while back and while it was delicious, I wasn't happy with the crisping of the crust - especially in the middle.  I suspect my oven may have something to do with it (gas, burner recessed underneath). I have the blue steel pans from Detroit Style Pizza Co. 

Are people having better luck with lower temp/longer bake time?  I also considered throwing the pans on top of my 1/2" pre-heated steal I use for NY?

Thanks
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: norma427 on March 10, 2014, 06:16:45 PM
I tried this recipe (reply #199) a while back and while it was delicious, I wasn't happy with the crisping of the crust - especially in the middle.  I suspect my oven may have something to do with it (gas, burner recessed underneath). I have the blue steel pans from Detroit Style Pizza Co. 

Are people having better luck with lower temp/longer bake time?  I also considered throwing the pans on top of my 1/2" pre-heated steal I use for NY?

Thanks

Triglet,

What rack position are you using and what bake temperature did you try?

Norma
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Triglet on March 10, 2014, 06:46:55 PM
Norma,
I followed Hog's directions -- "bake on bottom oven rack for 15 min at 475".   Pretty sure I went even longer than 15 mins because I could tell it wasn't done, to the point where when I was trying to get it out of the pan it was falling apart because it was under cooked.  Can't help but think everyone's exposed electric element gives a huge radiant heat boost to the pan whereas a recessed gas burner doesn't have that.

Thanks!
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: norma427 on March 10, 2014, 07:10:02 PM
Norma,
I followed Hog's directions -- "bake on bottom oven rack for 15 min at 475".   Pretty sure I went even longer than 15 mins because I could tell it wasn't done, to the point where when I was trying to get it out of the pan it was falling apart because it was under cooked.  Can't help but think everyone's exposed electric element gives a huge radiant heat boost to the pan whereas a recessed gas burner doesn't have that.

Thanks!

Triglet,

If you want to see Steve's Detroit style pizza baked in his home oven I posted the link at Reply 1580 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=21559.msg239366#msg239366 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=21559.msg239366#msg239366) and also posted a link to a Detroit style pizza I made in my home oven.  You can see I baked at about 500 degrees F on my pizza stone and how many minutes I baked at that temperature.

Did you try to bake on a pizza stone?  I really don't think your gas oven is the problem.  I have other Detroit style pizzas I made on the above thread in my home oven and they turned out okay.  Do you have an IR gun?

There are some posts near the end of the that thread how I make my Detroit style dough.

Norma
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Triglet on March 10, 2014, 07:34:52 PM
Norma,
Thanks -- those links are gonna help.  I'm gonna do a test run in the next few days using a pizza stone I have and I'll report back with results.  I do have an IR gun so I'll shoot some temps to help figure this out.  Got some people coming over this weekend and I wanted to make this again but don't want to have the semi-disaster I had last time!

Thanks again
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: norma427 on March 10, 2014, 07:43:56 PM
Norma,
Thanks -- those links are gonna help.  I'm gonna do a test run in the next few days using a pizza stone I have and I'll report back with results.  I do have an IR gun so I'll shoot some temps to help figure this out.  Got some people coming over this weekend and I wanted to make this again but don't want to have the semi-disaster I had last time!

Thanks again

Triglet,

Good luck!  If you need any other help or links to where I made Detroit style pizzas in my home oven let me know.

Norma
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: TheRailroadBulls on April 02, 2014, 10:36:04 AM
Anyone here from Detroit?  Anyone familiar with Buddy's Pizza or Shield's Pizza?  It's similar to Sicilian, but not identical.  Any idea of what the recipe would be, at least for the dough?

I work at a local shop that makes Detroit style pizza, and here is some of the stuff we've learned over the years:

1) Many people will tell you to that you need alot of oil to get that fried texture on the bottom. That is not so. A thin layer of oil is all you need.

2) Less important than your recipe is making sure you have good blue steeled pans with a good gauge.

3) The dough is nowhere near important as with other styles. Our shop is pretty crappy, I won't lie, but at home (I plan to open my own shop someday), I basically use a normal Neopolitan dough, but I add about 1/2 cups of good olive oil for ever 5 cups of flour. Oil the pan, stretch the dough to fit, give it a gentle mist of water on the top, and then cover and allow to sit for an hour or so.... then I restretch in the pan, and I use my fingertips to press holes ALL over it (all the way to the pan), to prevent it from ballooning, basically docking it while it's in the pan. Then top, and bake at 500 degrees (i have a convenction oven at home but it may very) on very the bottom rack, for about 9-10 minutes. For a commercial oven though, especially a conveyor or something that runs dryer, usually the pan would be covered with a flat steel cooking tray and put it in the oven for about 3.5 minutes, then taken out, the cover removed, and ran through the oven for about 7 minutes.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Lydia on April 09, 2014, 02:45:45 PM
http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/story/19042572/how-to-make-buddys-lake-huron-pizza (http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/story/19042572/how-to-make-buddys-lake-huron-pizza)


be sure to check out the video at the link above to see the dough ball/risen dough and the corner pressing.



WJBK) -[/size]Buddy's Pizza (http://www.buddyspizza.com/) uses what's called a lean dough to make its famous 2-3 inch thick Detroit-style pizza crust. No oil or sugar is added. They proof it, or let it sit at room temperature for 1-2 hours until it rises, before it hits the oven.
[/size]Unlike most pizzas, Buddy's signature sauce sits on top of the cheese, not below it. Here is the recipe for the Lake Huron pizza from the Made in Michigan Great Lakes Pizza Collection, which features the Motor City Cheese Blend and the spinach artichoke blend:
[/size]Toppings
[/size]Motor City Cheese Blend (Fontinella, Asiago and brick cheeses)
[/size]Spinach artichoke blend (recipe below)
[/size]Roasted tomatoes
[/size]Fresh spinach
[/size]How to make the spinach artichoke blend
[/size]Ingredients
[/size]1 lb. artichoke hearts
[/size]1 ¼ cups mayonnaise
[/size]1 ¼ cups light mayonnaise
[/size]2 ½ oz. breadcrumbs
[/size]1/3 cup asiago cheese
[/size]2 tsp minced garlic
[/size]2 tsp minced Spanish onion
[/size]1 ½ tbls kosher salt
[/size]2 tsp white pepper
[/size]6 oz. fresh baby spinach
[/size]Step 1: Drain artichoke hearts and roughly chop.
[/size]Step 2: Blanch the spinach by placing it in boiling water for 3 minutes.  Drain and cool by placing under cold running water.  Strain under all excess water has been removed.
[/size]Step 3: Chop the drained spinach, making sure the stems have been thoroughly chopped.
[/size]Step 4: Combine all ingredients and mix thoroughly.  Refrigerate until ready to use.
[/size]How to re-create the Lake Huron pizza at home
[/size]Step 1: Make a lean dough – don't use oil or sugar. Weigh the dough into 10-16 ounce portions depending on your preference and roll each portion into a round ball.
[/size]Step 2: Place the dough ball in the square pan and press evenly until it covers the complete bottom of the pan completely, making sure that the sides are slightly pushed up around the perimeter.
[/size]Step 3: Spread shredded or ground cheese on the dough. Proof the cheesed pizza at room temperature for 1-2 hours, depending on preference.
[/size]Step 4: Lightly sauce the pizza with the spinach artichoke blend, on top of the cheese (not on the dough as traditional pizzas are usually made). Place pizza in a pre-heated oven at 450 degrees and bake to desired doneness. It will take approximately 20-30 minutes.
[/size]Step 5: Remove the pizza from the oven. Take a spatula and run along the inside of the pan to loosen the pizza from the sides.  Lift pizza out of the pan and cut to desired size pieces and serve. Enjoy![/size]
[/size]Read more:[/size] [/size]http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/story/19042572/how-to-make-buddys-lake-huron-pizza#ixzz2yPkludTa (http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/story/19042572/how-to-make-buddys-lake-huron-pizza#ixzz2yPkludTa)[/size]
Quote

EDIT: For a cleaner presentation, see http://web.archive.org/web/20150204172136/http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/story/19042572/how-to-make-buddys-lake-huron-pizza
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on April 09, 2014, 02:59:03 PM
The video that Lydia cited is one that was noted in the companion thread to this thread at Reply 91 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=21559.msg220597;topicseen#msg220597 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=21559.msg220597;topicseen#msg220597). I recall that video very well because it did not tell us how much dough Buddy's itself used to make its own pizzas of a given size, at a time when we were trying to uncover or figure out that amount.

Peter
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: norma427 on April 09, 2014, 09:04:56 PM
Motor City Export Detroit-style pizza has deep-dish roots.

http://www.hourdetroit.com/Hour-Detroit/July-2013/Motor-City-Export/ (http://www.hourdetroit.com/Hour-Detroit/July-2013/Motor-City-Export/)

Norma
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: gschwim on April 11, 2014, 01:20:28 PM
I worked at Buddy's for four years! This was twenty years ago so I honestly don't remember the dough recipe.  I do remember that we made it at 8:00 am every morning. It was made fresh every day for that day only.  The dough was mixed in the mixer, then we portioned it. After it was portioned into the pans it was stretched twice. This is where the double kneading comes in!  Once to get it close to the edges of the pans then the second stretch to 'fit" the pans.

After the first stretch, do you remember:


Basically, for a cafe my partner and I are planning, I want to get an idea of how many large and how many pans to buy.  Any guidance you (or anyone) can give would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Gene
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: norma427 on April 11, 2014, 07:04:38 PM

Basically, for a cafe my partner and I are planning, I want to get an idea of how many large and how many pans to buy.  Any guidance you (or anyone) can give would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Gene

Gene,

If you are going to be making a lot of Detroit style pizzas you will need more pans than I have.  I only have 10 small pans but I make do with them by keeping other dough balls in plastic bags in the fridge.  The dough balls are easy to take out of the plastic bags and press into the pans when the dough is cold.  I then have a warm-up cabinet that I keep at about 98 degrees F that tempers the dough in the pans.  I don't know about your future customers, but I started out using big pans when the slices were cut they were smaller than the slices cut from the smaller pans.  My customers wanted all corner slices too so they could get more of the caramelized edges.  Maybe you will only be selling whole pies instead of slices like I do.

Norma 
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: RobFL on May 20, 2014, 04:39:16 PM
I remember on several occasions at buddy's the sauce had fennel seed in it.  I would have one in a slice every once in while. and not found on every pie. 
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Danny G on August 15, 2015, 05:06:19 PM
Pizza Hog,

I am trying your pizza method and I have a question:

You say suggest the following:

KAAP, table salt, tap water, KA mixer with "C" dough hook, 10x14 black steel pan.
Dissolve salt in water, add flour, sprinkle IDY on top.  Mix on lowest speed until incorporated then continue on this speed for a 8 min knead.  20 mins rest to relax then scrape into greased pan, spread, cover, rise, dress and bake on bottom oven rack for 15 min at 475

After the 20 min rest to relax if I scrape into pan I think it will be impossible to spend, because the dough is very sticky and wet.

How do you manage the dough?

Many Thanks
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on August 15, 2015, 05:09:13 PM
PizzaHog was last on the forum on June 12, 2014, so you may not get a response.

Peter
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: gschwim on August 16, 2015, 02:50:32 PM
Don't know if someone already posted this somewhere, but Buddy's Pizza "reverse-engineers" might find this video, "Detroit's Culinary Cult Classics:  Coney Dogs and Pizza," interesting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0JqmvAYic0

Buddy's is featured in it and at one point, the Buddy's spokesman states that they bake their pizzas for 12 minutes, at 600 degrees.

Gene




Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on August 16, 2015, 05:26:35 PM
Don't know if someone already posted this somewhere, but Buddy's Pizza "reverse-engineers" might find this video, "Detroit's Culinary Cult Classics:  Coney Dogs and Pizza," interesting:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0JqmvAYic0&feature=youtu.be

Buddy's is featured in it and at one point, the Buddy's spokesman states that they bake their pizzas for 12 minutes, at 600 degrees.

Gene
Gene,

See Reply 2237 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=21559.msg392547#msg392547 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=21559.msg392547#msg392547).

Peter
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: eiram21 on October 16, 2015, 09:33:53 AM
I posted this question in another Detroit pizza thread also:

Does anyone have a photo of a crumb shot from an authentic slice of Buddy's pizza? I could have sworn that the crumb was pretty tight although the pizza is light as air and crispy. I haven't lived there in 4 years

Marie
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: norma427 on October 16, 2015, 06:02:44 PM

Does anyone have a photo of a crumb shot from an authentic slice of Buddy's pizza? I could have sworn that the crumb was pretty tight although the pizza is light as air and crispy. I haven't lived there in 4 years

Marie

Marie,

PizzaHog posted a crumb shot of Buddy's Pizza at Reply 98 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3783.msg73872#msg73872

Norma
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on February 11, 2016, 11:26:56 AM
The crumb on that Buddy's pie looks great considering it was baked in a conveyor. Does anyone know what Buddy's conveyor temp is? I've read 495 in the thread but haven't heard much beyond that....
Lou,

Over the years, Buddy's changed ovens in its various stores, as is discussed at Reply 1040 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=21559.msg230250#msg230250 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=21559.msg230250#msg230250). That post was back in January, 2013, so it may well be that there have been further oven changes since then given that Buddy's has used conveyor ovens for over thirty years. According to this recent article, at http://www.eater.com/2016/1/19/10787414/detroit-style-pizza (http://www.eater.com/2016/1/19/10787414/detroit-style-pizza), Buddy's ovens are either electric or gas. Nonetheless, bake temperatures and bake times that Buddy's may have used over the years might still be instructive. So, I went back into this thread and the companion thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=21559.0 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=21559.0) and tried to find the posts that talk about the Buddy's bake protocol. But with over 3100 posts total, I may have missed some pertinent posts. But these posts seem most applicable.

Item 7 (and the links referenced therein) and EDIT 3 at Reply 126 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3783.msg81436;topicseen#msg81436 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3783.msg81436;topicseen#msg81436)

Reply 28 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3783.msg62915;topicseen#msg62915 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3783.msg62915;topicseen#msg62915)

Reply 2170 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=21559.msg369435#msg369435 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=21559.msg369435#msg369435) (I am highly suspicious of the temperature in this one)

I also fixed several of the broken or inoperative links in Reply 126 referenced above. There are still a couple that I could not fix using the Wayback Machine but I may try some other method.

Peter

Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: reincarnage on March 05, 2016, 08:02:34 PM
Old thread, I reckon, but it keeps going too.  My top element does not work in my oven, would you agree it is best to cook at the top so that I have even heat, as the only heat source is the bottom? 
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: hotelhotel on April 01, 2016, 11:43:21 PM
My DETROIT attempts . Working on this for a while ... getting reaaaalllll close. The "common sharing of knowledge is the trick!  Have had Detroiters give me two thumbs up!
Keep ya posted. Thank you for your passion and love of pizza making!
Lee
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: hotelhotel on April 02, 2016, 01:25:33 AM
hotsawce
Yes. Believe it or not, I am firing these in my wood fired brick oven at pretty high temps trying to get faster fire times . Ive been pulling them a little too early ,however they still have a nice little crunch. Very challenging to get the dough a perfect golden color while not overdoing the cheese. Getting really close to my perfect timings to heat ratio and the crumb is looking quite nice . Will post more pics as I get closer.
Thanks for your comments.
Lee
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: HansB on April 02, 2016, 09:39:09 AM
They do look quite authentic.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Black Tie on January 26, 2017, 11:26:11 AM
You guys are amazing! I have been making the best pizzas using the formula in post 199 - thank you Pizza Hog. One quick question... the only thing I think my pizza lacks is a bit of a char on the sausage or pepperoni sitting on the top. Is this because I am baking on the bottom rack of the oven?   
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: HansB on January 26, 2017, 11:30:34 AM
Put it under the broiler for the last minute or so.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Black Tie on January 26, 2017, 11:41:59 AM
Ok Thanks Hans ;D
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: HansB on January 26, 2017, 11:49:46 AM
Ok Thanks Hans ;D

Your pizza looks good by the way!
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Black Tie on January 26, 2017, 11:53:17 AM
Thank you
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: cup-o-pizza on August 13, 2017, 09:08:51 PM
Had a craving for a Detroit-style pizza today, so I used a very slightly modified version of PizzaHog's dough formulation from Reply #199. The only thing I did differently with my dough was split the flour 50:50 between KABF and cake flour. I also added 2% LDMP. This was hands down the best Detroit-style pizza I've made. The crust was airy and light with a nice crispiness along the edges. 10/10 - will make again!

Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: tjkoko on September 24, 2017, 12:15:53 PM
Finally the basics are all together so here is my recipe for Detroit Style Pie.
I attempted to incorporate as much of the info contained in this thread as possible.  Sort of trying to imagine how one of these pizzerias would pump out the dough and pies every day.  Whenever in doubt I referred to the KISS theory.  I also tried to use easily findable ingredients for everyone's convenience.  In the end this is a simple and forgiving dough but the devil was in the other details.
No scale, all measurements textbook method.

Flour (100%):    273.04 g  |  9.63 oz | 0.6 lbs               2C + 3 T
Water (75%):    204.78 g  |  7.22 oz | 0.45 lbs            ¾ C + 1 T + 2 ½ t
IDY (0.55%):    1.5 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.5 tsp | 0.17 tbsp      ½ t
Salt (1.5%):    4.1 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.73 tsp | 0.24 tbsp   ¾ t
Total (177.05%):   483.42 g | 17.05 oz | 1.07 lbs | TF = 0.1218

KAAP, table salt, tap water, KA mixer with "C" dough hook, 10x14 black steel pan.
Dissolve salt in water, add flour, sprinkle IDY on top.  Mix on lowest speed until incorporated then continue on this speed for a 8 min knead.  20 mins rest to relax then scrape into greased pan, spread, cover, rise, dress and bake on bottom oven rack for 15 min at 475..........................

I've been bread baking since 2000 and your specifying an 8 minute knead really took my doughs to the next level.  Up until I read this post I've always kneaded bread dough in my Hobart N50 mixer for around 3 minutes.  Not any more.

And your pizza recipe works great for me.  SPOT ON!!!!!  8)   :chef: :chef: :chef: ;D

Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Dangerous Salumi on October 07, 2017, 10:45:09 AM
Hello everyone.

First off, I have to commend every poster in this thread.

Every picture and recipe, is great in their own right. Great work everyone, they all look Delicious!
Most of you could probably open pizza places, and make a living. Again, great work!

A little background on me first.

I grew up in Detroit, within walking distance of Shield's, and about a miles walk to the original Buddy's, on 7 and Conant.
My Mother tells me, that my first taste of Buddy's, was when I was 1 month old. I guess you could say I was weened on Buddy's pizza.  :-*

Every pizza I have, until this day, I compare to Buddy's pizza.
I Have been around the world, several times. I have even had pizza in Italy, the birth place of pizza I guess, but it does not compare to that sweet, not too thick, not to flat, square piece of heaven, that is Buddy's pizza, from Detroit.
Most all pizza I have had, has been good, but some should not even be called pizza.  >:D

In my early years, I was a professional cook, pizza maker, and head dishwasher, at many restaurants in Detroit, and beyond. I have made many, many attempts, at reproducing the original Buddy's pizza. All to no avail, close, but not the same.

Enough about me.

I had an Aunt, who worked at Buddy's, at the original Conant location, in the mid 70's, for a couple of summers. She had mentioned to me, and my family, on more than one occasion, some of the secrets of the Buddy's pizza, but not enough.

I remember that she had mentioned that there was cheese, in the dough. Not just in the crust, but in the actual preparation of the dough. "When the dough was made, a dry powdery cheese was added". Now I take that to mean that there was an addition of something dry, like Parmesan, being added to the dough, as it was mixed. Now do not take this as gospel, it is just what was I told. I was a kid, I was told lots of things.  ;D But I do, until this day, add Parmesan to my dough. It's good, and I do notice a difference in taste, when I do not add it.

Reading through the thread, there are some things that I know for a fact, that are true.
All Buddy's pizzas are made in seasoned, dark metal pans, and they are not washed. (just wiped clean between uses.)
Oil is bushed into the pans, before the dough is placed into the pans. ( I have seen it.)

What I do not know for fact, and I just remember being told.
The cheese is a mix of, brick, cheddar, provolone, and mozzarella.  Cubed, (cheese is used as the crust, pressed into the corners and sides, and spread into the pan lightly, as dough is placed into pan)
Oven temps, when they used pizza ovens, were high, 600+ degrees. But they now use conveyor, impinger type ovens.

I can not, to this day, reproduce it.

Luckily, I live only about 3 1/2 hours from the nearest Buddy's pizza. I frequent the store in Auburn Hill's, just off I-75, next to Oakland University.

The taste and texture does change, from location to location. But I assume that is because each location is not identical, like say a domino's or a pizza hut, where each location is an exact a reproduction of another kitchen.

More to come.

Thanks,
-Deano

I was reading this post from 7 years ago and I didn't understand how the cheese was being put in the pan. I don't know if Deano is still active so Im asking the whole pizzamaking.com crowd what it means...

"The cheese is a mix of, brick, cheddar, provolone, and mozzarella.  Cubed, (cheese is used as the crust, pressed into the corners and sides, and spread into the pan lightly, as dough is placed into pan)"

Is Deano saying cubed cheese is put down in the pan before the dough is put in the pan?
Was cubed cheese put into the corners and sides of the pan before the dough was put in the pan?
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: HansB on October 07, 2017, 10:49:55 AM
No, dough goes in first. I posted some photos here: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=42012.0
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Dangerous Salumi on October 07, 2017, 11:00:55 AM
No, dough goes in first. I posted some photos here: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=42012.0

Ok but what does this mean?

"....Cubed, (cheese is used as the crust, pressed into the corners and sides, and spread into the pan lightly, as dough is placed into pan)"

Cheese is used as crust?
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: HansB on October 07, 2017, 11:10:21 AM
I have no idea what he meant. Buddy's definitely does not use cheese as the crust. They put it on similar to the way I do. Maybe he'll chime in.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: vtsteve on October 07, 2017, 12:00:05 PM
Ok but what does this mean?

"....Cubed, (cheese is used as the crust, pressed into the corners and sides, and spread into the pan lightly, as dough is placed into pan)"

Cheese is used as crust?


I think the OP wasn't adequately distinguishing between the cheese crust (around the edges) and the crust/crumb (baked dough).  Maybe more powdered cheese in the pan? Yeah. it still doesn't make any sense.   :-D

Earlier in the same post...

I remember that she had mentioned that there was cheese, in the dough. Not just in the crust, but in the actual preparation of the dough. "When the dough was made, a dry powdery cheese was added". Now I take that to mean that there was an addition of something dry, like Parmesan, being added to the dough, as it was mixed. Now do not take this as gospel, it is just what was I told. I was a kid, I was told lots of things.  ;D
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: buenokid on November 04, 2017, 10:22:03 PM
I was reading this post from 7 years ago and I didn't understand how the cheese was being put in the pan. I don't know if Deano is still active so Im asking the whole pizzamaking.com crowd what it means...

"The cheese is a mix of, brick, cheddar, provolone, and mozzarella.  Cubed, (cheese is used as the crust, pressed into the corners and sides, and spread into the pan lightly, as dough is placed into pan)"

Is Deano saying cubed cheese is put down in the pan before the dough is put in the pan?
Was cubed cheese put into the corners and sides of the pan before the dough was put in the pan?

From my understanding you take the white cheddar to the edges of the pan so you get those crisp, raised edges as the cheese caramelizes. I think I put too much white cheddar around the edge of my pizza, but using the recipe in post #199 made of the tastiest pizzas I've ever made.

It seemed like I could have used quite a bit more dough for a 10 x 14 pan though that recipe was used with a 10 x 14 pan.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: jkb on November 09, 2017, 08:23:00 PM
https://youtu.be/U8sGB7kTRrs
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: buenokid on November 11, 2017, 06:12:41 PM
https://youtu.be/U8sGB7kTRrs

That was a good video. Thanks for sharing!

I'm making the recipe from reply #199 again tonight. I did about 73% hydration but everything else was the same. I'm worried the dough was a little too cold to rise properly for a 3-4 proof.

I might post an update if it turns out well.

EDIT: Results.

Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on July 18, 2018, 03:22:47 PM
It appears that Buddy's is contemplating a sale/leaseback arrangement with its original location in order to raise funds to help take the brand national:

https://www.metrotimes.com/table-and-bar/archives/2018/07/16/buddys-pizza-is-selling-its-original-location

Peter
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: DustinA on July 20, 2018, 02:51:27 PM
Finally got this to turn out right.  Too much cheese the first time, too much dough the next time, too wet of a sauce then too dry of a sauce ...

I finally broke down and listened to my betters and tried the 199 Recipe (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3783.msg92963#msg92963).  Man, that is money.  Follow the directions and you'll get a killer, killer pie.

Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: HansB on July 20, 2018, 04:54:06 PM
Nicely done!
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Rocco1 on July 24, 2018, 07:56:17 AM
Not sure if Buddy's still use the same recipes as years ago, it doesn't seem to be as good as it used to be, I think they have deviated from the traditional Detroit style because of peoples changing tastes.  However I still go there on occasion, its still one of the better places in town. Basically to make a Detroit style thick crust pizza you need the following: a blue steel pan, Wisconsin brick cheese that is placed on the dough directly (thin slices that cover the top dough surface), and the tomato sauce is the last thing you put on over the cheese and toppings.  The dough recipe is up for debate on what works best.  I got my blue steel pan from detroitstylepizza.com.  This is a long standing thread, didn't read the whole thing, not sure if any of this was mentoned before.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: gschwim on August 02, 2018, 02:06:45 PM
Great news for New Yorkers, especially us New Yorkers, who are from Detroit.  Aside from a place in Brooklyn, there is a Detroit-style pizzeria in Manhattan - Lions & Tigers & Squares, corner of Eighth Ave. & W. 23rd St.

Looking forward to trying the pizza.  But what especially interests me is the baking pans (see photo) they are using.  They are double-tray pans, seem to be made of thicker metal - and, judging from this video ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTCtn_QvDbE ), the baked pizzas seem to slip out easier than from the blue steel pans.

I'm hoping that someone can identify these pans and tell the rest of us where to get them.

Thanks!

Gene
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: norcoscia on August 02, 2018, 02:46:26 PM
Those pans are cool - I hope so too!
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: HansB on August 02, 2018, 03:37:13 PM
Interesting pans. I've never seen any like that around here.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: surgtech2006 on August 02, 2018, 05:03:23 PM
Great news for New Yorkers, especially us New Yorkers, who are from Detroit.  Aside from a place in Brooklyn, there is a Detroit-style pizzeria in Manhattan - Lions & Tigers & Squares, corner of Eighth Ave. & W. 23rd St.

Looking forward to trying the pizza.  But what especially interests me is the baking pans (see photo) they are using.  They are double-tray pans, seem to be made of thicker metal - and, judging from this video ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTCtn_QvDbE ), the baked pizzas seem to slip out easier than from the blue steel pans.

I'm hoping that someone can identify these pans and tell the rest of us where to get them.

Thanks!

Gene
Thats like a lost Sopranos episode where they make Detroit Pizza lol. Not too far for me, gonna have to check it out. Wondering how close to those pans I can get.. But I doubt there's any brand markings on them.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: norcoscia on August 02, 2018, 05:20:18 PM
Maybe they will tell you if you ask - the way they nest is great - leaves just the right amount of room for the dough below to rise to the perfect height. I want some so bad....
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: apizza on August 02, 2018, 07:05:50 PM
On ebay
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Double-Pizza-Pans-Rectangle-Deep-Dish-Chicago-style-Used-well-seasoned/123259659945?hash=item1cb2d926a9%3Ag%3AuwMAAOSwNURbUKaP%3Asc%3AUSPSPriority%2106109%21US%21-1&_sacat=0&_nkw=double+pizza+pans&_from=R40&rt=nc&_trksid=m570.l1313
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: norcoscia on August 03, 2018, 08:18:06 AM
Marty - I love you  :-D :-D :-D
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: apizza on August 03, 2018, 10:30:00 AM
Marty - I love you  :-D :-D :-D

Happy to have helped. Funny thing is I may be interested in getting a couple of these to experiment with. The video did it!
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: norcoscia on August 03, 2018, 10:34:52 AM
I ordered some this AM - only a few left now  ;)
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: surgtech2006 on August 03, 2018, 11:05:16 AM
I ordered some this AM - only a few left now  ;)
Me too lol. I gotta get back in the game lol
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: norcoscia on August 03, 2018, 11:37:49 AM
Boy that was fast!
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: apizza on August 03, 2018, 12:28:03 PM
Me too.  ;D
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: bjc113 on August 04, 2018, 08:52:24 AM
I have no idea if this is the right place for this, but quick question:

I have a 62% hydration All Trumps "NY" doughball...how bad will my results be if I just use that?
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: vtsteve on August 04, 2018, 10:04:06 AM
Just use the right size for your pan (look for .12-.13 TF) and give it a good long proof in the pan (at least doubled in size). If it's showing air bubbles before panning, degass it first to encourage the finer crumb. It'll be edible.   :)
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: bjc113 on August 04, 2018, 01:13:07 PM
thank you sir

I will go for it, we'll see what happens...it's a 525ish gram doughball for a 10x14 pan

fingers crossed!
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: HansB on August 04, 2018, 04:51:12 PM
Around 525g should be perfect!
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: bjc113 on August 04, 2018, 10:47:11 PM
yup this turned out absolutely fantastic  ;D ;D

never had 'Detroit Style' so no clue if this is accurate but whatever it was - it was delicious
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: rasj on August 05, 2018, 03:11:12 PM
What's the proper way to clean and maintain the pans above? Mine arrived pretty crusty, especially the outsides.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: surgtech2006 on August 05, 2018, 03:20:32 PM
What's the proper way to clean and maintain the pans above? Mine arrived pretty crusty, especially the outsides.
Mine too.. I think im just gonna flip them over and hit the outside with some oven cleaner, but leave the insides as is, just soap and water.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: apizza on August 21, 2018, 12:43:36 PM
What's the proper way to clean and maintain the pans above? Mine arrived pretty crusty, especially the outsides.

I gave oven cleaner a try on the bottom and it eventually took off some of the grey  coating. I think I'd rather have that so I will go with scraping and  soap and water. Also pans are non magnetic so must be made of aluminum.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: norcoscia on August 21, 2018, 01:05:06 PM
Mine were so greasy - two applications of oven cleaner took care of the grease but the pans still have a thick almost carbon coat on them (on the outside). I didn't think they were made from aluminum but sure enough they are not magnetic. I plan to put one in my grill and cook it at 900 degrees to see what happens - I know it will remove the carbon but not sure what will happen to the pan. If it goes to the pizza gods - so be it - at least it will go clean.....
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: rasj on August 21, 2018, 01:16:30 PM
I gave oven cleaner a try on the bottom and it eventually took off some of the grey  coating. I think I'd rather have that so I will go with scraping and  soap and water. Also pans are non magnetic so must be made of aluminum.
Same here with similar results. I got the bottom of the pans pretty clean though  and revealed a manufacturer's number. One pan has "CM 01 13" and the other one is "CM 02 13".

These may be made by Chicago Metallic, which would make sense.

Edit: They could be old little Ceasars pans. There's a case of new ones on ebay that looks like them
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F273408186695
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: HansB on August 21, 2018, 03:23:12 PM
I don’t wash the outsides at all.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: surgtech2006 on August 21, 2018, 03:47:45 PM
Washing the outside of these new-to-me pans because it's not "my" grease.. Lol.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: norcoscia on August 21, 2018, 03:52:03 PM
Confirmed - anyone want to buy some dirty ones  :-D
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: RetroRayGun on August 21, 2018, 09:27:06 PM
If it goes to the pizza gods - so be it - at least it will go clean.....

LOL  :-D
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: julius_sanders on August 26, 2018, 06:58:16 PM
Somebody has experiences with the Detroit Lloyd Pans? I have 2 and I think they a working good, but seem a lot more expensive then other brands and types. Or somebody had the possibility to compare different pans?

thx :)
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: podein on August 26, 2018, 08:22:34 PM
Restaurant Equippers in Southfield Michigan sells steel Detroit Style Pizza Pans that are hands down the best. 8X10 costs $12 and 10X14 costs $12.50. They are unseasoned so you need give a few coats of Crisco before using them and you can never -- NEVER -- get them wet, but treat them right and they will make your dinner into a little slice of heaven.


https://www.equippers.com/detroit-style-8-x-10-rectangular-steel-pizza-pan/1212332.asp

https://www.equippers.com/detroit-style-10-x-14-rectangular-steel-pizza-pan/1212325.asp
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: HansB on August 26, 2018, 10:43:13 PM
These are twice the price but they are no hassle and work perfect.  https://detroitstylepizza.com/product/detroit-style-pizza-pan/
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: podein on August 27, 2018, 01:15:58 AM
HBOLTE,

Your pans are aluminum, and as much as they try to be, they are NOT the same as steel pans. There is about a 100 degree difference in efficacy. STEEL makes a difference in seasoning, flavoring and carmelization that you cannot match with the bastard aluminum. And after about four pizzas, your steel pans are so perfectly seasoned that are 100% Buddy's/Shield's quality and will remain so for you lifetime. Seriously, my ex wife and I fought over the pans during our divorce.

Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: HansB on August 27, 2018, 09:45:29 AM
I have both. They bake almost identically.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: norcoscia on August 27, 2018, 09:56:16 AM
I think aluminum is more conductive than steel - heck about 6 or 7 years ago I made a great pie using a Scan Pan - heavy dark aluminum works great - if not exactly the same it seems like you could adjust cooking temp/process to get them exactly the same post bake. Likely pie shops don't want to mess with coated thick aluminum pans - the coating can get scuffed and they cost more - for home use you can be careful with the coating and you are not buying a thousand pans.

My 2 cents :-)
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: HansB on August 27, 2018, 06:45:22 PM
I think aluminum is more conductive than steel - heck about 6 or 7 years ago I made a great pie using a Scan Pan - heavy dark aluminum works great - if not exactly the same it seems like you could adjust cooking temp/process to get them exactly the same post bake. Likely pie shops don't want to mess with coated thick aluminum pans - the coating can get scuffed and they cost more - for home use you can be careful with the coating and you are not buying a thousand pans.

My 2 cents :-)

I agree. The Detroit Style Pizza Co. uses the PSTK pans. You do have to be a bit more careful.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: apizza on August 28, 2018, 03:51:48 PM
For those of you trying to clean the ebay pans I found that a razor blade scraper did pretty good. It did not damage the coating. I think the coating kept the stuff from baking onto the pan. My oven cleaner one does not scrape as easy as one left alone.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: apizza on September 10, 2018, 11:11:41 AM
Never made Detroit style but wanted to try the ebay pans. Overall very happy. Did one pan with a 76% dough and a second pan with my usual 65% dough. Detroit dough from KA because it was quick. Baked at 500 deg one level down from center. About a 15 minute bake. Detroit was fine. Nice crunch but bottom maybe a little overdone. My 65% pizza were more overdone with a darker bottom. Learned a lot and will try Detroit again. Maybe go to middle of oven but keep 500 deg. Very slight sticking on side but they really came right out of the pan. Baked both pans at same time. Hope to use these and get 4 different toppings at one bake. Future experiments for my regular pizza, maybe. It does fine in a 12" round.
Anyway Detroit well accepted by my family so I guess I'm adding this to the menu. Like the pans.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: podein on September 11, 2018, 10:10:05 PM
I'm sorry. I am a Detroiter born and bred and lived here all my life. Neither one of those pies looks anything like a Detroit style pizza.

A real Detroit style pizza will be black all the way around the edge where the brick cheese has filled the crack between dough and pan and then caramelized in the high heat before being pried away from hot steel by a spatula. No offense, but your cheese isn't caramelized. This just isn't a Detroit style pizza.

If you are serious about our eats, spend the $12.50 and get a real uncoated Detroit steel pan and season it yourself. Aluminum is NOT the same. The coating is a major negative. I hope the family enjoyed them and all, but take that next step, dude. You will be grateful that you did.

Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: MikesPizzaTX on October 04, 2018, 02:34:44 PM
After getting through this post I'm going to try recipe on #199 tomorrow, any last minute tips?  I'm without the pans, but i have a cast iron lasagna dish that is 9.5x13.5 that I plan to use and just cut a little of the dough out.  I also have a 12" cast iron (coated) skillet to make a second one.  The lasagna dish has high walls and the skillet has medium high sides.

After all the talk about the steel pans I couldn't find much or any mention of anyone ever using cast iron, do you think I'm headed for disaster?  Will it change the cook?  15 minutes @550 seems the way to go?

Would love to hear what you guys think.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Chicago Bob on October 06, 2018, 12:01:51 AM
I'm sorry. I am a Detroiter born and bred and lived here all my life. Neither one of those pies looks anything like a Detroit style pizza.

A real Detroit style pizza will be black all the way around the edge where the brick cheese has filled the crack between dough and pan and then caramelized in the high heat before being pried away from hot steel by a spatula. No offense, but your cheese isn't caramelized. This just isn't a Detroit style pizza.

If you are serious about our eats, spend the $12.50 and get a real uncoated Detroit steel pan and season it yourself. Aluminum is NOT the same. The coating is a major negative. I hope the family enjoyed them and all, but take that next step, dude. You will be grateful that you did.

    This is a good post....shows a lot of class.  :chef:
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: MikesPizzaTX on October 09, 2018, 03:32:14 PM
After getting through this post I'm going to try recipe on #199 tomorrow, any last minute tips?  I'm without the pans, but i have a cast iron lasagna dish that is 9.5x13.5 that I plan to use and just cut a little of the dough out.  I also have a 12" cast iron (coated) skillet to make a second one.  The lasagna dish has high walls and the skillet has medium high sides.

After all the talk about the steel pans I couldn't find much or any mention of anyone ever using cast iron, do you think I'm headed for disaster?  Will it change the cook?  15 minutes @550 seems the way to go?

Would love to hear what you guys think.


Well FYI, it was a bit of a disaster and also a bit of a success.  The cast iron lasagna pan did not work at all, I think it's just too thick and not the right tool for the job, the pizza took like 30 minutes to cook and the dough stuck to the bottom terribly.  The second I made in a circle pan that's cast iron but has a coating on it, that one was actually really quite good and slid right out.  It was pretty delicious and gave me the motivation to order a few of the right pans so I can give this another run.  I think the cast iron takes too long to heat up, once it gets to temp its great but the longer cook time isn't a good thing at all. 
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: gspinelli on October 09, 2018, 06:38:01 PM
I tried using one of those porcelain enamel coated steel lasagna pans, and it worked well except the bottom stuck somewhat and I had to chisel it out with a spatula. Otherwise it came out nice and crispy.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: MikesPizzaTX on October 10, 2018, 02:30:18 PM
Restaurant Equippers in Southfield Michigan sells steel Detroit Style Pizza Pans that are hands down the best. 8X10 costs $12 and 10X14 costs $12.50. They are unseasoned so you need give a few coats of Crisco before using them and you can never -- NEVER -- get them wet, but treat them right and they will make your dinner into a little slice of heaven.


https://www.equippers.com/detroit-style-8-x-10-rectangular-steel-pizza-pan/1212332.asp

https://www.equippers.com/detroit-style-10-x-14-rectangular-steel-pizza-pan/1212325.asp

Hey there, I just ordered two of these pans and can't wait to give them a try, question for you; how do you go about cleaning them if you can't get them wet?  I plan to season with Grape Seed oil when they arrive, maybe a thin coat, into the oven, another thin coat, into the oven, and then it's time to bake!  What do you think?
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: MikesPizzaTX on October 10, 2018, 02:31:31 PM
I tried using one of those porcelain enamel coated steel lasagna pans, and it worked well except the bottom stuck somewhat and I had to chisel it out with a spatula. Otherwise it came out nice and crispy.

Pretty much what I went through as well, had to chisel it out and it was good but certainly was not able to set on a rack and cut into squares.  Oh well, half the fun is wine and practice!  :)
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PuRowdy on December 08, 2018, 12:10:29 AM
2nd attempt using PizzaHog's recipe in post 199.  Turned out fantastic, couple things to nit pick and keep working on but something I would be fine serving to any of my friends/family. 

https://imgur.com/gallery/j4QHtnt?
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: foreplease on December 08, 2018, 09:58:57 AM
2nd attempt using PizzaHog's recipe in post 199.  Turned out fantastic, couple things to nit pick and keep working on but something I would be fine serving to any of my friends/family. 

https://imgur.com/gallery/j4QHtnt? (https://imgur.com/gallery/j4QHtnt?)
Looks fantastic!
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: buenokid on February 16, 2019, 07:57:14 PM
Made this tonight using pizzahogs recipe. Baked at 500 on stone for 20 minutes. Used brick for most of the pizza and mozzarella around the edge.

I can't seem to get the sauce to taste like pizza from a restaurant though. I always think it's missing something. Regardless, I love this pizza style!

Any thoughts on sauce? I use cento puree and add sugar, salt, pepper, oregano, and basil.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: ocanada65 on March 02, 2019, 02:18:49 PM
This was my first attempt at DSP. It was pretty good but sauce was not quite as sweet as Buddy's so will give it another whirl.

Reading over the years of posts has been great and educational.

Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: gschwim on March 03, 2019, 03:10:10 PM
Interesting pan, never saw it, before.  What kind is it?  Where did you buy it?

Thanks.

Gene
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: HansB on March 03, 2019, 06:37:13 PM
This was my first attempt at DSP. It was pretty good but sauce was not quite as sweet as Buddy's so will give it another whirl.

Reading over the years of posts has been great and educational.

Your pizza looks good! For a typical Detroit Style you can reduce the dough weight that you used by 1/3 to 1/2. DS is much thinner.

Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: iLLEb on August 02, 2019, 03:26:02 AM
My pizza came out pretty well for the first try.

However, the crisp bottom in the middle of the pie was lacking, i would like it completely crisp on the bottom. Any suggestions? the sides/bottom was oiled equally. How could I best go about increasing the crisping of the bottom?
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: C6Bill on September 04, 2019, 06:23:13 PM
Thank you all for the info in this thread. I took my first shot at DSP tonight, now i need a pizza nap lol

I've never had DSP so I have no idea how it stacks up but I will say this, it was really good !!!!!

It tastes as good as it sounds if you play the video lol

https://youtu.be/MW9MbuuYTEw




Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pete-zza on September 04, 2019, 06:47:01 PM
C6Bill,

You did a nice job. Can you tell us which recipe you used?

Peter
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Chicago Bob on September 06, 2019, 04:40:04 PM



   Sounds delicious bill!! 🎼👂
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: C6Bill on September 09, 2019, 11:37:07 PM
Thanks guys !!! I've made more than a few since that one, they are kind of addicting lol

As far as a recipe I'm using my standard dough after 48 hour CF

This gave me enough for 2 540 G dough balls
Flour     Water   Salt       Yeast     Sugar   EVOO
650     403          16.25       1.625       6.5   6.5
100     62             2.5         0.25         1   1

Started with 6 slices of provolone then a half pound of shredded mozzarella and a half pound of sharp white cheddar, and I topped that with 1/4 pound of a parmesan and asiago blend. Also sliced up a decent pepperoni stick for a topping

Cooked that at 650 for about 10 to 12 minutes.

Here is one without pepperoni I made the next day for friends

Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: C6Bill on September 09, 2019, 11:38:40 PM
Forgot to add, I've never had a DSP before so I don't know how close this is to the real thing but I do know this. It's friggin yummy and everyone who has tried it loves it.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Max. on September 16, 2019, 01:09:34 AM
Making my way through this thread, currently page 14 and am amazed at these pizzas and the dedication to perfection.

Interested in making a cast-iron DSP but a few posts seem to show it may not be viable! Will update you when I've had a play :)
Title: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: jf7fsu on November 09, 2019, 03:12:03 PM
Just made my first Detroit style pizza but did not have my Detroit style pan in stock yet as it is on order. I used an all clad bakeware pan  and tried to make do. I used Pizzahogs recipe at #199.  I made the dough and let it rest about 20 minutes and then used Crisco on my pan and went ahead and pushed the dough out and put it in the covered pan overnight to cold ferment. At about 9 AM I took it out and did an RT rise until bake time around 1:30 PM . I cooked it at 475 on the bottom rack of my oven with an exposed lower heating coil for about 18 minutes. The top came out perfect but the bottom was undercooked and crispy. The cheddar caramelized along the edges and I used a paring knife and scraped the edges so I could extract the pizza from the pan. Once I got it extracted the bottom was under cooked so I took it out and put it back on the bottom shelf of the oven and crisped it up. It wound up coming out pretty decent although I would’ve liked a little more canalization on the edges. Also I decided to cook with the sauce which I know is not traditional but I prefer my sauce cooked. I used Horizon organic shredded white cheddar on the edges and slices of low moisture mozzarella for the rest as well as armour pepperoni underneath the cheese.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: C6Bill on December 06, 2019, 11:41:20 AM
^^^  That looks fantastic !!!!!   ^^^
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: pgpizza on January 13, 2020, 12:50:34 AM
I’ve been lurking and learning from many threads here at pizzamaking.com this past year.  I got tired of spending $30+ a week on pizza so I wanted to learn how to make great pizza at home.  Turns out that the Detroit style has become the family favorite here in Utah.  I made four today along with three NY-style.

My procedure has been to do a 3-day CF poolish using IDY.  On dough day I mix all the water and about half of the flour followed by a 20-minute autolyse.  Then I add the IDY, salt, sugar, and remaining flour and mix for 6 minutes.  The dough is 76% HR and I CF the balled dough for three days.  On pizza day I take the cold dough balls, 257 g each, and stretch them into a rough square letting gravity do most of the stretching.  The dough goes into a Walmart 9x9 steel pan that has about 1.25 teaspoons of EVOO drizzled in it.  I press the dough out to fit the bottom of the pan, cover with plastic wrap, and put it in the oven to proof for four hours with the light on to provide a little warmth.

I par bake on a hot stone at 500F for 5 mins, top and back in the oven for 4-5 more minutes.  Sometimes I turn on the broiler during the second bake if I want the cheese to brown a bit.  Cool for 2 minutes, go around the edge with a knife then lift out the pizza with a tuner/spatula.
I ordered some Detroit-style pans from Restaurant Equippers, https://www.equippers.com/detroit-style-8-x-10-rectangular-steel-pizza-pan/1212332.asp (https://www.equippers.com/detroit-style-8-x-10-rectangular-steel-pizza-pan/1212332.asp), so I’ll season and try them out next weekend.

Many thanks to all who post here on the forums.  After a year of making pizza once a week my family won’t let me stop!  :o  Here are some pics from today…

Scott
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Banks on March 05, 2020, 07:44:03 PM
never had an actual Detroit pizza but this pie was absolutely amazing thanks to all the recipes and tips in this thread!!
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: foreplease on March 05, 2020, 10:20:23 PM
Beautiful! Welcome to the forum, Banks
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: flight16 on April 24, 2020, 06:51:14 PM
I’ve been lurking and learning from many threads here at pizzamaking.com this past year.  I got tired of spending $30+ a week on pizza so I wanted to learn how to make great pizza at home.  Turns out that the Detroit style has become the family favorite here in Utah.  I made four today along with three NY-style.

My procedure has been to do a 3-day CF poolish using IDY.  On dough day I mix all the water and about half of the flour followed by a 20-minute autolyse.  Then I add the IDY, salt, sugar, and remaining flour and mix for 6 minutes.  The dough is 76% HR and I CF the balled dough for three days.  On pizza day I take the cold dough balls, 257 g each, and stretch them into a rough square letting gravity do most of the stretching.  The dough goes into a Walmart 9x9 steel pan that has about 1.25 teaspoons of EVOO drizzled in it.  I press the dough out to fit the bottom of the pan, cover with plastic wrap, and put it in the oven to proof for four hours with the light on to provide a little warmth.

I par bake on a hot stone at 500F for 5 mins, top and back in the oven for 4-5 more minutes.  Sometimes I turn on the broiler during the second bake if I want the cheese to brown a bit.  Cool for 2 minutes, go around the edge with a knife then lift out the pizza with a tuner/spatula.
I ordered some Detroit-style pans from Restaurant Equippers, https://www.equippers.com/detroit-style-8-x-10-rectangular-steel-pizza-pan/1212332.asp (https://www.equippers.com/detroit-style-8-x-10-rectangular-steel-pizza-pan/1212332.asp), so I’ll season and try them out next weekend.

Many thanks to all who post here on the forums.  After a year of making pizza once a week my family won’t let me stop!  :o  Here are some pics from today…

Scott

That crust crumb looks amazing.  What are the ingredients and percentages?

Update: I used the recipe on the first page of this thread and modified it for 76% hydration and no oil.  It's in the fridge proofing now, but it turned out super sticky, I could hardly get it off my hands and into the bowl.  I haven't played around with hydration %s but for 76% that's probably normal?
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: pgpizza on May 26, 2020, 01:49:55 PM
Flour (100%)
Water (78%)
IDY (.15%)
Salt (2.75%)
Sugar (.75%)

The dough is easy to handle after a 3-day CF.  Stretch and press the cold dough it into the pan right after you pull it from the fridge and it won't be hard to handle.  Let it rise for 4-5 hours in the pan covered w/ plastic wrap.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: saucelord on August 01, 2020, 01:09:12 PM
Coming in hot:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtb7xrqfuIA&fbclid=IwAR062Fpats1GbLUaIuve6xXPjBkWT7fLtTaiCR0KoGmULe54H9YW4Ibvu0o

Straight from Buddy's brand ambassador.  I thought it was interesting they say the leave the dough in the pan up to an hour and a half inbetween stretches.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Radix2 on August 23, 2020, 11:15:53 PM
Hi All Buddy's pizza lovers and those in far off places hoping for a try!

I am a native Detroiter and have loved Buddys for years, usually eating it a couple times a month - I just made one using Pizzahogs recipe and it was sooo close to the original !

I tried a couple cheeses and found that the Boar's head white cheddar was pretty much dead on.  I also tried a Cracker Barrel sharp white and it was not close at all.  I was a little off on the Jar sauce I used, but the crust and cheese where awesome.

For a pan I used a couple Winco 9x13 steel cake pans -one had some kind of nonstick finish, the other old and worn was just that...  With the recommended 1.5 tsp of oil, both pies came out easy and clean.  I did reduce the doughball size to match Pizzahogs recommendation by the ratio of the pan areas  (9x13=117) vs (10x14=140) , so 117/140 - the recipe was reduced to .84% of weight.   

As I said, the crisp, crunch, color, taste, thickness and texture were excellent, so I don't see a need to stress out finding the exact pans.

Thanks Pizzahog!
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: nyrhonr88 on August 31, 2020, 02:40:02 PM
I’ve been lurking and learning from many threads here at pizzamaking.com this past year.  I got tired of spending $30+ a week on pizza so I wanted to learn how to make great pizza at home.  Turns out that the Detroit style has become the family favorite here in Utah.  I made four today along with three NY-style.

My procedure has been to do a 3-day CF poolish using IDY.  On dough day I mix all the water and about half of the flour followed by a 20-minute autolyse.  Then I add the IDY, salt, sugar, and remaining flour and mix for 6 minutes.  The dough is 76% HR and I CF the balled dough for three days.  On pizza day I take the cold dough balls, 257 g each, and stretch them into a rough square letting gravity do most of the stretching.  The dough goes into a Walmart 9x9 steel pan that has about 1.25 teaspoons of EVOO drizzled in it.  I press the dough out to fit the bottom of the pan, cover with plastic wrap, and put it in the oven to proof for four hours with the light on to provide a little warmth.

I par bake on a hot stone at 500F for 5 mins, top and back in the oven for 4-5 more minutes.  Sometimes I turn on the broiler during the second bake if I want the cheese to brown a bit.  Cool for 2 minutes, go around the edge with a knife then lift out the pizza with a tuner/spatula.
I ordered some Detroit-style pans from Restaurant Equippers, https://www.equippers.com/detroit-style-8-x-10-rectangular-steel-pizza-pan/1212332.asp (https://www.equippers.com/detroit-style-8-x-10-rectangular-steel-pizza-pan/1212332.asp), so I’ll season and try them out next weekend.

Many thanks to all who post here on the forums.  After a year of making pizza once a week my family won’t let me stop!  :o  Here are some pics from today…

Scott

This is one of the best crumbs I've ever seen!

Can you elaborate on your process? Are you making a poolish at room temp (usually about 16 hours) and then mixing the rest of the flour and the salt and then doing a CF for 3 days?
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: pgpizza on September 16, 2020, 11:44:10 AM
The poolish is mixed and sits at RT for 3-4 hours then 3 days of CF.  When it's time to make dough I put all remaining water in the mixer bowl with the poolish and half the remaining flour and autolyse for 20 mins, then start mixing and adding the other remaining ingredients.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: dmuma on September 17, 2020, 11:55:25 AM
I’ve been lurking and learning from many threads here at pizzamaking.com this past year.  I got tired of spending $30+ a week on pizza so I wanted to learn how to make great pizza at home.  Turns out that the Detroit style has become the family favorite here in Utah.  I made four today along with three NY-style.

My procedure has been to do a 3-day CF poolish using IDY.  On dough day I mix all the water and about half of the flour followed by a 20-minute autolyse.  Then I add the IDY, salt, sugar, and remaining flour and mix for 6 minutes.  The dough is 76% HR and I CF the balled dough for three days.  On pizza day I take the cold dough balls, 257 g each, and stretch them into a rough square letting gravity do most of the stretching.  The dough goes into a Walmart 9x9 steel pan that has about 1.25 teaspoons of EVOO drizzled in it.  I press the dough out to fit the bottom of the pan, cover with plastic wrap, and put it in the oven to proof for four hours with the light on to provide a little warmth.

I par bake on a hot stone at 500F for 5 mins, top and back in the oven for 4-5 more minutes.  Sometimes I turn on the broiler during the second bake if I want the cheese to brown a bit.  Cool for 2 minutes, go around the edge with a knife then lift out the pizza with a tuner/spatula.
I ordered some Detroit-style pans from Restaurant Equippers, https://www.equippers.com/detroit-style-8-x-10-rectangular-steel-pizza-pan/1212332.asp (https://www.equippers.com/detroit-style-8-x-10-rectangular-steel-pizza-pan/1212332.asp), so I’ll season and try them out next weekend.

Many thanks to all who post here on the forums.  After a year of making pizza once a week my family won’t let me stop!  :o  Here are some pics from today…

Scott

Great info, thanks Scott!  How did those pans end up working out?

Dave
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: pgpizza on September 21, 2020, 01:00:44 PM
I actually didn't like using a Detroit style pan.  IMHO, a home oven like mine that only hits 500F can't cook the dough fast enough so the toppings are ready but not he dough.  So I'm back to using my cheap-o Wal-Mart 8x8 inch steel pans and they work just right.  I think the thinner gauge steel allows better heat transfer with the 8x8 pans.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: HansB on September 21, 2020, 02:25:25 PM
I actually didn't like using a Detroit style pan.  IMHO, a home oven like mine that only hits 500F can't cook the dough fast enough so the toppings are ready but not he dough.  So I'm back to using my cheap-o Wal-Mart 8x8 inch steel pans and they work just right.  I think the thinner gauge steel allows better heat transfer with the 8x8 pans.

Interesting. I have baked with both the steel and PSTK at 500° with good results. I bake on the middle rack of the oven, not on stone or steel.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: pgpizza on September 21, 2020, 03:12:31 PM
As with all things pizza, you have to find what works for you.  There are a number of variables at play so you have to figure out what works in your kitchen and go with it and enjoy a slice of heaven!  :chef:   :pizza:
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: towerof on October 06, 2020, 06:33:33 PM
Hey guys, im going to be trying to make this pizza tomorrow for the first time.

 I don't have the 10x14 steel pan, is a 12 inch cast iron an ok substitute?
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaEater on October 12, 2020, 04:59:43 PM
Hey guys, im going to be trying to make this pizza tomorrow for the first time.

 I don't have the 10x14 steel pan, is a 12 inch cast iron an ok substitute?

I often use a 9x13 cast iron baking dish and it works great, I just multiply every thing by .84 to adjust for the smaller surface area.

Yes, it'll work great, just multiply all ingredients by .81.
For  10" multiply by .57

Set your pan/skillet on a preheated pizza steel or stone if possible.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: PizzaEater on October 16, 2020, 02:15:58 PM


Pan prep.  Every pan lube I have tried works.  OO appears to be most authentic and is what I am using now.  Getting this right results in a good crisp fry without the pie ending up greasy.  In the 10x14 pan, 1 1/2 tsp spread with a pastry brush is about perfect since the brush does soak up and remove some of the oil.  The cheese crust always welds itself to the pan for me.  To prevent this, I paint a thin strip of shortening just above the risen dough with a brush around the sides of the pan before piling on the cheese.  It still does not pop out, but can at least be released with just a little effort. 


OO, not sure what you reference here?  Olive Oil, disregard
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: P-dilla on December 25, 2020, 06:25:45 AM
Thanks PizzaHog, I came across your recipe and let me say.....Right on the money. I did use a 60/40 on the Wisconsin Brick and Mozzarella from Bowers' Fancy Dairy at Eastern Market who has the best variety of cheese in the entire DC area.   Deeeelicious. I've had Lion's Tigers and Squares in NYC and Blue Pan in Denver, and my personal creation tasted better in MY OPINION, so I'm assuming Buddy's might be the best since your recipe is suppose to replicate it. I use Cento Crushed tomato with a splash of Paste, OO, and a few spices for my sauce.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: sspiek on January 02, 2021, 06:29:51 PM
Haz anyone compared PizzaHogs post 199 recipe to the serious eats - https://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2017/02/detroit-style-pizza-recipe.html
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pizza5050 on January 16, 2021, 11:20:50 AM
I have been using Kenji’s recipe for the last year. It was only yesterday that I decided to try the recipe on #199 and it was very tasty - more so than Kenji’s.  But, I did change 2 things that could have contributed to that,  I did a CF for about 14 hours (which made the dough super easy to stretch in the pan immediately) and used Crisco, and RT for 4 hours.  Baked for 16 minutes in a 60 minute preheated oven at 500, middle rack.  It had a nice crumb, and you can see the crisco bubbling on the last photo

But here is where I need help:  for some reason, I thought it would be a good idea to “cover” the Floyd Pan with a silicone mat (vs plastic wrap) and the dough rose, but not high enough. I am wondering if there wasn’t enough fresh h2o in the pan.  The dough wasn’t even 1 inch high.  Tasty, but not what I know it to be, being from Michigan.   And I did the same thing with Kenji’s recipe, and that didn’t rise enough either.

Suggestions anyone?
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: bobgraff on January 17, 2021, 09:21:37 AM
After stretching the dough in the pan, try letting it rise in the oven with just the light on (no heat). 
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: Pizza5050 on January 17, 2021, 04:14:52 PM
Thanks - I will give that a try!
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's Mine is Loui's Style!
Post by: u4ea on February 23, 2021, 08:06:32 PM
Hi,
This is my first post, but I am after the holy grail of Loui's Detroit style pizza.

I have been working on and experimenting for a while and now I am sharing.

Let me know what you think and i can provide the ingredients Etc.

Thanks!

u4ea
  :D
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: foreplease on February 24, 2021, 07:04:14 PM
That looks good to me. I’m somewhat surprised at the nice browning you were able to get with what appears to be an aluminum pan. However you did it, it looks fine. Welcome to the forum and thanks for a great first post.
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: u4ea on February 25, 2021, 12:49:21 PM
That looks good to me. I’m somewhat surprised at the nice browning you were able to get with what appears to be an aluminum pan. However you did it, it looks fine. Welcome to the forum and thanks for a great first post.

Thanks Tony! I baked it at 350 F for about 20 minutes on the bottom rack, I find if I bake it at  400-500 F and not on the bottom rack the middle is still doughy and not cooked enough. BTW, it was an aluminum pan but I just bought a steel pan unfortunately it's steel colored and not blue. Are there any more Loui's fans out there looking for the "Loui's holy grail" ?
Looking forward to other Detroit style pizza connoisseurs posts.  :chef:
Have a great day!
u4ea
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: apizza on February 25, 2021, 01:09:21 PM
That looks good to me. I’m somewhat surprised at the nice browning you were able to get with what appears to be an aluminum pan. However you did it, it looks fine. Welcome to the forum and thanks for a great first post.
I have a couple of pans that look like aluminum but are actually aluminized steel. Their results are much better than all aluminum, more like the pictures.  u4ea does a magnet stick to your pan?
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: u4ea on February 25, 2021, 01:38:05 PM
Yes it does!
I thought it was aluminum, but it's at least partially iron/steel!
Great catch Marty!
Who knew?
 :o
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: wilson502 on May 16, 2022, 05:32:17 PM
I have a more general question. I noticed some places will cook the sauce/heat the sauce and put it on the pizza after the pizza is baked with no sauce on it. Is there a meaningful difference to cooking/heating the sauce separately vs putting it on top of the cheese and cooking it with the pizza?
Title: Re: "Detroit Style" - Buddy's or Shield's
Post by: HansB on May 16, 2022, 06:43:17 PM
Your preference. Buddy's originally put the cooked sauce on the pizza post bake and still does. Detroit Style Pizza Company does too. Cloverleaf and Loui's sauce before bake. I mostly sauce before bake.

Try both and see what you prefer.