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Offline holman3rd

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Newbie dough problem
« on: December 19, 2010, 05:53:13 PM »
First attempt to make pizza in a while. I got ideas for ingredients amounts from the "Boardwalk Pizza" forum (Mac & Manco clone attempt) and then ran everything through the Lehmann calculator for two 16" pies.

Flour: 100% (Unbleached, All-Trump)--Flour was kept in freezer immediate after purchasing about a month ago. (no idea why I store it in the freezer---guess I figured that was best).
Water: 55%
IDY: 0.3% (Saf Instant Yeast)
Salt: 2%
Oil: 5%
Sugar: 2%

Here are my exact steps. Obviously I messed something up. I'd appreciate suggestions. Thanks.

I used a counter-top mixer:

1) Using the paddle attachment, I mixed up the Flour, IDY, Sugar and Salt.
2) Mixed in the water until fully absorbed. Water was around room temperature.
3) Added the oil and mixed for about 2 minutes.
4) Switched to dough hook and mixed for another 10 minutes.
5) Split dough into two equal balls. (I am terrible at making dough balls, so if there is a thread on here with recommendations, I'd appreciate it).
6) Covered each ball with some olive oil using my hands and placed in separate air-tight containers.
7) Immediately put in Fridge for roughly 24 hrs.

Here is the problem. The dough didn't rise at all. I basically had two bricks to work with. I didn't too much trouble (less than I thought) shaping them into pies, but after cooking, the dough was flat and basically tasted like bread. As I implied above, I have made dough before using ADY and pies came out pretty good. That's how I know the current attempt didn't taste like "pizza" dough. I much prefer how much easier IDY is to use, so I'd like to get this right.

Thanks in advance for your help. I'm new, so go easy. :-)

Walt


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Newbie dough problem
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2010, 06:00:16 PM »
Walt - a few questions?

-how old is the yeast?
-what was the relative temp of the water?  room temp? cold? hot?
-what type of water did you use?  Tap water? bottled water?
-how long did you let the dough rise before shaping and baking?

Chau

buceriasdon

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Re: Newbie dough problem
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2010, 06:05:37 PM »
Like Chau, How long after you removed the dough from the fridge did it sit to come to room temp? 1.5 to 2 hours? I keep my flour in the freezer and never have a problem with IDY. I eyeball my dough by cutting then weigh each ball removing and adding till they match.
Regards, Don
« Last Edit: December 19, 2010, 06:11:36 PM by buceriasdon »

Offline holman3rd

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Re: Newbie dough problem
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2010, 06:11:13 PM »
Walt - a few questions?

-how old is the yeast?
-what was the relative temp of the water?  room temp? cold? hot?
-what type of water did you use?  Tap water? bottled water?
-how long did you let the dough rise before shaping and baking?

Chau

Yeast was purchased a month ago, but opened when I made the dough.
Water was about room temp coming out of the tap.
I checked the dough in the morning around 10am and it hadn't changed at all. So I took it out of the fridge and let it stand at room temp until I shaped it at approx. 5pm. The dough didn't change at all while it sat on the counter.

Offline Essen1

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Re: Newbie dough problem
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2010, 06:12:32 PM »
Great video on balling dough by Tony Gemignani.




Mike

ďAll styles of pizza are valid. I make the best Iím capable of; you should make the best youíre capable of. I donít want to make somebody elseís pizza.Ē ~ Chris Bianco

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Newbie dough problem
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2010, 06:24:47 PM »
First attempt to make pizza in a while. I got ideas for ingredients amounts from the "Boardwalk Pizza" forum (Mac & Manco clone attempt) and then ran everything through the Lehmann calculator for two 16" pies.

Flour: 100% (Unbleached, All-Trump)--Flour was kept in freezer immediate after purchasing about a month ago. (no idea why I store it in the freezer---guess I figured that was best).
Water: 55%
IDY: 0.3% (Saf Instant Yeast)
Salt: 2%
Oil: 5%
Sugar: 2%

Here are my exact steps. Obviously I messed something up. I'd appreciate suggestions. Thanks.

I used a counter-top mixer:

1) Using the paddle attachment, I mixed up the Flour, IDY, Sugar and Salt.
2) Mixed in the water until fully absorbed. Water was around room temperature.
3) Added the oil and mixed for about 2 minutes.
4) Switched to dough hook and mixed for another 10 minutes.
5) Split dough into two equal balls. (I am terrible at making dough balls, so if there is a thread on here with recommendations, I'd appreciate it).
6) Covered each ball with some olive oil using my hands and placed in separate air-tight containers.
7) Immediately put in Fridge for roughly 24 hrs.

Here is the problem. The dough didn't rise at all. I basically had two bricks to work with. I didn't too much trouble (less than I thought) shaping them into pies, but after cooking, the dough was flat and basically tasted like bread. As I implied above, I have made dough before using ADY and pies came out pretty good. That's how I know the current attempt didn't taste like "pizza" dough. I much prefer how much easier IDY is to use, so I'd like to get this right.

Thanks in advance for your help. I'm new, so go easy. :-)

Walt



Walt,

From what I see is that you mixed the salt in with the yeast. Salt is known as a yeast inhibitor and sometimes used to control fermentation. Anyway, when you added the water to your dry ingredients, the salt dissolved and I think it started to affect the yeast right from the get-go, hence not much rise and very little fermentation.

Next time, add the water and dissolve the sugar, add the flour and yeast and give it a good mix until no raw flour is visible while mixing in the oil. Let it rest for 10 mins and then sprinkle the salt on and mix it at whatever time is necessary for your formulation.

That should yield a better outcome. Hope this helps...
Mike

ďAll styles of pizza are valid. I make the best Iím capable of; you should make the best youíre capable of. I donít want to make somebody elseís pizza.Ē ~ Chris Bianco

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Newbie dough problem
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2010, 07:15:31 PM »
holman3d,

Would it be possible to see the entire dough formulation with the weights of all ingredients?

As Tom Lehmann states in his PMQ Think Tank post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=44454#p44454, it is perfectly OK to combine the IDY (in dry form), salt and sugar. In your case, adding them to the flour was also OK. Tom repeats the above advice in his article on yeast in Reply 7 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7465.msg64349.html#msg64349.

If I were to venture a guess as to what was responsible for your results, I would say that it was perhaps a combination of using 0.30% IDY in a dough with a hydration of only 55%, and cold fermenting the dough for only 24 hours. It is also possible that your finished dough temperature was on the low side, possibly because your water and/or flour and room temperature were on the low side. Of the above factors, I would say that the fermentation period was the major culprit. I was too short. A 55% hydration dough ferments more slowly than a more highly hydrated dough, so it takes longer for it to rise. If it is cool where you live and where you made your dough, you would need maybe three or four days to get adequate fermentation. In your case, the next time you may want to use water at a temperature to produce a finished dough temperature of around 75-80 degrees F. You can also speed up things a bit by using more yeast, maybe 0.40% IDY. Then let the dough cold ferment for about three days or so.

I may have additional comments when you show us the complete dough formulation. I'd like to see the total dough weight. The reason is that when I have made Mack clone doughs with a hydration of 55%, I found that I needed to use a combination of my stand mixer and food processor to get a good, cohesive dough ball. In my case, I was making dough for a single 18" pizza. Your dough for two 16" pizzas would weigh more than my single dough ball for the 18" size.

Peter

buceriasdon

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Re: Newbie dough problem
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2010, 07:17:23 PM »
I guess I've gotten somewhat caviler about the stages I mix ingredients in but I like Mike's suggestion to add the salt last for you. My room has become cool, at least to me, so I heat my microwave on high for three minutes, then place a wet towel over the tupperware container, and let it set in there for a few minutes. Another question for you Walt. When you checked your dough, did you see any bubbles at all? Any activity to speak of? If not I think you need to add more yeast for your hydration level.
Don
« Last Edit: December 19, 2010, 07:19:30 PM by buceriasdon »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Newbie dough problem
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2010, 07:27:10 PM »
It is possible to add the salt late in the dough making process, and that is sometimes done with Neapolitan doughs, but I highly doubt that Mack and Manco's does that. The two most common methods used by pizza professionals in the U.S. for incorporating salt in the dough is to either mix it in with the water (along with sugar, if used) or to mix it in with the flour. If the salt is put in the mixer bowl with the water, then the flour can be added along with the yeast (dry or rehydrated). Tom Lehmann prefers that the oil be incorporated into the dough later in the process but some operators (maybe even most) tend to add the oil to the water.

Peter

Offline Essen1

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Re: Newbie dough problem
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2010, 08:37:50 PM »
Ah, the world of dough chemistry... :)

Peter,

The hydration also stood out with me, mainly because it's on the low side. That, and perhaps in connection with the two percent salt amount and the low yeast amount, don't you think all of it plays a factor? Salt is a known yeast killer if the amount is disproportionately high. That was my initial train of thought.

What also would be interesting to know is Walt's kneading time in the mixer. If the dough's overkneaded the gluten structure might be too tough for the gases produced by the yeast to give the dough the necessary rise/lift, no?

Mike

ďAll styles of pizza are valid. I make the best Iím capable of; you should make the best youíre capable of. I donít want to make somebody elseís pizza.Ē ~ Chris Bianco

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Newbie dough problem
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2010, 09:18:33 PM »
Mike,

Walt was using a slightly modified version of a Mack's clone dough formulation that Norma and I used when we were working on the Mack's clone project. The last couple of clone doughs that I made used 55% hydration. That was by design based on the evolution of the work that Norma and I did with the Mack's clone dough. However, I used a few days of cold fermentation. The 2% salt shouldn't have been a problem, just as it has not been a problem with Norma and me. You would have to have quite small amounts of yeast before 2% salt might be an issue but, even there, if the salt is handled properly with respect to the yeast, you might still be OK. You normally want to keep the salt and sugar away from the yeast during rehydration. That is usually more of a problem with ADY because that form of yeast requires rehydrating. IDY does not and can just be combined with the flour. The other thing to know about salt and yeast is that modern yeast strains have become more tolerant of yeast, and cold water as well.

You may well have a point on the kneading time. That is the other reason why I wanted to see the entire dough formulation and total dough weight. That might tell us whether 12 minutes knead time in the stand mixer is the right knead time. In my basic KitchenAid stand mixer with the C-hook, 55% hydration is a tough number.

Peter

Offline holman3rd

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Re: Newbie dough problem
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2010, 10:00:22 PM »
Here is the data from the calculator:

Flour (100%):
Water (55%):
IDY (.3%):
Salt (2%):
Oil (5%):
Sugar (2%):
Total (164.3%):
Single Ball:
714.68 g  |  25.21 oz | 1.58 lbs
393.07 g  |  13.87 oz | 0.87 lbs
2.14 g | 0.08 oz | 0 lbs | 0.71 tsp | 0.24 tbsp
14.29 g | 0.5 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.98 tsp | 0.99 tbsp
35.73 g | 1.26 oz | 0.08 lbs | 7.94 tsp | 2.65 tbsp
14.29 g | 0.5 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.59 tsp | 1.2 tbsp
1174.22 g | 41.42 oz | 2.59 lbs | TF = 0.103
587.11 g | 20.71 oz | 1.29 lbs

I copied and pasted it, but the formatting is messed up. Is there a better way to show the data?

Offline holman3rd

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Re: Newbie dough problem
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2010, 10:01:45 PM »
As someone who is new to this, it appears I bit off more than I could chew with 55% hydration. I'll go back to NY Style, which is something I had more success with (and 63% hydration).

By the way, a while ago on this forum I found a thread with a good step-by-step description of preparing the NY Style dough. I didn't bookmark it and can't find it. Can anyone point me to the link?

Thanks for all the quick replies. It's very much appreciated.

Walt

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Newbie dough problem
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2010, 10:21:08 PM »
Walt,

The dough formulation you posted looks to be fine. If you click on the Copy button at the bottom to the dough calculating tool page and then hit Ctrl-V on your keyboard as you are composing a reply, the dough formulation should be in proper form in the reply box.

Looking at your dough formulation, it is possible that 12 minutes might not have been quite enough for 2.59 pounds of dough at 55% hydration. As I mentioned before, I had to use a combintion of stand mixer and food processor to be able to get a cohesive dough ball. However, I still believe my prior comments apply to what you did.

Is the post you are thinking about for the NY style this one: Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg19563.html#msg19563 ?

Peter

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Newbie dough problem
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2010, 10:26:32 PM »
Ah, the world of dough chemistry... :)

Peter,

The hydration also stood out with me, mainly because it's on the low side. That, and perhaps in connection with the two percent salt amount and the low yeast amount, don't you think all of it plays a factor? Salt is a known yeast killer if the amount is disproportionately high. That was my initial train of thought.

What also would be interesting to know is Walt's kneading time in the mixer. If the dough's overkneaded the gluten structure might be too tough for the gases produced by the yeast to give the dough the necessary rise/lift, no?



Hey Mike, not long ago I made a dough with little yeast in it (5% cold starter) that did not rise after 7 hours at room temps.  
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12390.0.html

At the time I too thought my small amount of partially active starter yeast could have been killed off by the salt.  Your advice to me in reply #10 was to have more patience and give it a longer fermentation.   I subsequently re-did the test and you were right.  I just needed more time.  This type of workflow also produce some of my favorite pies.  Thanks for that.

In the process of learning, I have overkneaded and overdeveloped the gluten in many a dough.  The result is usually a dough that is tough to open with a tough or leathery crumb.  However, they always proof up and had good oven spring.  The oven spring didn't seem affected at all the gluten structure.   Here are 2 examples of this.  

reply #28
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10734.20.html
reply #579.  Here I balled the a 3 day cold fermented dough after it came out of the fridge and consequently overdeveloped the gluten.  
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.560.html

holman3rd.  Do you remember anything at all about the formulation or the kneading technique that your looked at before.  There are many recipes here with detailed instructions.  Perhaps if you gave some more clues about what you remember, Peter can find it for you.   He is really good at doing that but I'm not sure he reads minds all that well.  

Chau

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Offline norma427

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Re: Newbie dough problem
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2010, 10:52:02 PM »
As someone who is new to this, it appears I bit off more than I could chew with 55% hydration. I'll go back to NY Style, which is something I had more success with (and 63% hydration).

By the way, a while ago on this forum I found a thread with a good step-by-step description of preparing the NY Style dough. I didn't bookmark it and can't find it. Can anyone point me to the link?

Thanks for all the quick replies. It's very much appreciated.

Walt

Walt,

I also think your dough formula looks fine. When I was working on the boardwalk thread with Peter, I had mixed all my Mack's doughs by hand and didn't seem to have any problems incorporating everything by hand, expect when I added the oil last, and the oil did take a little while to get the oil mixed into the dough. Your dough formula wasn't off much from different dough formulas I used.

Norma 

Offline Essen1

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Re: Newbie dough problem
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2010, 11:30:04 PM »
Quote
In the process of learning, I have overkneaded and overdeveloped the gluten in many a dough.  The result is usually a dough that is tough to open with a tough or leathery crumb.  However, they always proof up and had good oven spring.  The oven spring didn't seem affected at all the gluten structure.   Here are 2 examples of this. 

Chau,

I hear you, as I have overkneaded a bunch of doughs also.

What I was talking about, in terms of the gluten strands/structure being too tough was regarding fermentation, not during baking. To borrow something from Alton Brown's episode of "Flat is Beautiful" "...a crust can have the flavor and texture of a mouse pad...". How true. It's often more the case than less.

The gases produced may not have had the 'power' to give any lift/rise to the dough. However, I also think that the gluten structure should have relaxed enough, given the fact that the dough was taken out of the fridge at 10:00am and had 7 hours to come up to room temp.

Maybe it's a case of several factors happening at once, with the hydration the first one I'd change.


Mike

ďAll styles of pizza are valid. I make the best Iím capable of; you should make the best youíre capable of. I donít want to make somebody elseís pizza.Ē ~ Chris Bianco

Offline c0mpl3x

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Re: Newbie dough problem
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2010, 12:32:51 AM »
i make 3.8lbs of dough in a bread machine with a 2.5lb capacity, as i'm only mixing it and not rising it.

i use roughly  .8% yeast and 1.4% sugar for a same day.   water temp has no bearing as it's in there for 10mins on a pre-knead pulse, and 20-25 until the dough has a soft 'lightly proofed' feel.    a little too much mixing, but the dough isn't chewy and the crumb is still pretty good.  between NY elite protein/gluten crumb, and bread in appearance.   

i would say you purchased defunct yeast, and mixing your salt  (2% is more than twice what i normally use) with it killed it.   but i mix all my dry, and all my wet in two different bowls before putting it into the breadpan.  today i made two 1.8lb loaves of bread that had risen to the entire inside of a bakers halfsheet, and they had risen from dough to oven ready in a little over an hour.

i think using iodized table salt and cold/frozen ingredients might be your downfall?
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Offline holman3rd

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Re: Newbie dough problem
« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2010, 08:10:20 AM »

Is the post you are thinking about for the NY style this one: Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg19563.html#msg19563 ?

Peter

Peter--You read my mind. :-)

That's the post I was looking for. I remember the dough pictures. Thanks for finding it!

Lots of suggestions to learn from in this thread. Thanks everyone for the responses.

Walt

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Newbie dough problem
« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2010, 09:42:51 AM »
i would say you purchased defunct yeast, and mixing your salt  (2% is more than twice what i normally use) with it killed it.

In the Lehmann article I referenced in Reply 6 of this thread, there are these comments relative to combining IDY and salt and sugar in what is commonly referred to as a "goody bag" to be used as needed:

Have you ever wondered about the word "instant" associated with this product? Instant refers to the rate at which this type of yeast absorbs water. If you could look at each one of those rods of yeast under a microscope, you would see that each one has the characteristics of a sponge: many openings, holes and voids that allow water to readily come into contact with the yeast, thus allowing it to hydrate.

This feature allows the instant yeast to simply be put into dough, along with all the other ingredients, without pre-hydration. The fact the yeast is dry allows it to be used in dry mixes for pizza dough or in goody bags containing salt and sugar. Remember, the yeast is dry so there will be no affect of the salt and sugar on the yeast. Just be careful that you don't try to pre-hydrate a goody bag containing salt, yeast and sugar before adding it to the flour.
(Emphasis mine).

Normally, Tom wouldn't recommend a goody bag with ADY because he always advocates that ADY be rehydrated separately in water.

Peter

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