Pizza Making Forum

Pizza Making => New York Style => Topic started by: norma427 on August 25, 2010, 06:17:44 PM

Title: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on August 25, 2010, 06:17:44 PM

The Ischia starter is active, alive and was incorporated into the Lehmann dough.  When I measured the Ischia starter, I only used 3/4 cup of starter because that was the weight given in the formula set-forth. 

I am going to try the Lehmann dough with the Ischia starter incorporated and see how long this dough can cold ferment, before having to make pizzas out of two dough balls. This dough pictured in the pictures is for two dough balls for a 14" pizza.  Half of the bulk fermented dough is going to be balled and left to room ferment until it doubles in size, then cold fermented..  The other half is going to be balled and put into the refrigerator to ferment.  This dough was made with KASL.

I recently started playing around with starters at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11578.msg106188.html#msg106188

Formula for two dough balls for 14" pizza

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):                552.51 g  |  19.49 oz | 1.22 lbs
Water (61%):                337.03 g  |  11.89 oz | 0.74 lbs
Salt (01.75%):                  9.67 g | 0.34 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.73 tsp | 0.58 tbsp
Total (162.75%):         899.21 g | 31.72 oz | 1.98 lbs | TF = 0.1030225
Single Ball:                           449.6 g | 15.86 oz | 0.99 lbs

Preferment:
Flour:                           39.76 g | 1.4 oz | 0.09 lbs
Water:                             39.76 g | 1.4 oz | 0.09 lbs
Total:                             79.51 g | 2.8 oz | 0.18 lbs

Final Dough:
Flour:                   512.75 g | 18.09 oz | 1.13 lbs
Water:                    297.28 g | 10.49 oz | 0.66 lbs
Salt:                             9.67 g | 0.34 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.73 tsp | 0.58 tbsp
Preferment:                 79.51 g | 2.8 oz | 0.18 lbs
Total:                   899.21 g | 31.72 oz | 1.98 lbs  | TF = 0.1030225

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on August 25, 2010, 06:19:42 PM
rest of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Pete-zza on August 25, 2010, 06:43:13 PM
Norma,

As a point of clarification, are you saying that 3/4 cup of your Ischia poolish weighed 2.8 ounces?

Peter
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on August 25, 2010, 06:58:20 PM
Norma,

As a point of clarification, are you saying that 3/4 cup of your Ischia poolish weighed 2.8 ounces?

Peter

Peter,

Yes, the 3/4 cup of my starter weighed 2.8 ounces or 79.51 grams.  My starter is a little thick, so maybe that is why it weighed heavier.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Pete-zza on August 25, 2010, 07:06:21 PM
Norma,

After I posted, I mixed roughly 40 grams of flour and 40 grams of water in a one-cup Pyrex measuring cup and it was around 1/3 cup.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on August 25, 2010, 07:18:17 PM
Peter,

Did I figured out this formula out wrong on the preferment dough calculating tool?  I had entered to make 2 dough balls using the starter representing 14.3908 % of the Total Formula Flour and the percent of water used in the poolish at 50%.  I am still learning about my starters and sometimes feed them more flour than water.  The starter I pulled out of the fridge this morning was a thicker starter.  By what I have seen so far this Lehmann dough with the starter added becomes active very fast. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Pete-zza on August 25, 2010, 07:41:17 PM
Norma,

I believe that you used the tool correctly, but to get your numbers I had to use regular salt instead of Kosher salt, a thickness factor of 0.10 (the value you have been using with the Lehmann formulation) and a bowl residue compensation of 3.0225%, which was an unusual value. Are those the values you used or did you use a different combination of values?

I think it was a weighing error, since 3/4 cup of a poolish preferment with equal weights of flour and water should weigh somewhere between 5.5-6.8 ounces. If we simply assume a weight of 6 ounces for two dough balls, that comes to almost 31% of the weight of the Total Formula flour. That could explain why the dough has bolted out of the gate.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on August 25, 2010, 08:00:30 PM
Peter,

I did use regular salt in the preferment dough calculating tool, a thickness factor of 0.10 and a bowl residue of 1.5.  I think I also must have had a measuring error with the starter.  I canít remember if I had tared out my measuring cup, but thought I did. Maybe that is why this dough is so active.  I probably added to much starter to the Lehmann dough.

I will make the pizzas when I think the dough is ready.  I think I have already learned that when using a starter, I will have to find out how much starter to use if I want this Lehmann dough to last for a few days.  I will see what happens with the dough.

These are some pictures of the dough after bulk fermented and the dough balls. One dough ball refrigerated right about bulk ferment.  Second dough ball after room ferment of two hours. I then reballed the second dough ball and put it into the refrigerator.  I didnít want to reball, but the dough ball already looked like it was fermenting a lot. Picture of last dough ball before I reballed.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Pete-zza on August 25, 2010, 08:15:33 PM
Norma,

If you used a bowl residue compensation of 1.5%, you must have used a thickness factor of 0.1015. Otherwise, the numbers are not the same as you posted. I mention this in case someone wants to modify your dough formulation for some reason.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on August 25, 2010, 08:31:31 PM
Norma,

If you used a bowl residue compensation of 1.5%, you must have used a thickness factor of 0.1015. Otherwise, the numbers are not the same as you posted. I mention this in case someone wants to modify your dough formulation for some reason.

Peter

Peter,

You are right.  I just looked at my papers I have the dough formula on and the thickness factor is 0.1015.  The last time I posted I was looking at nominal thickness factor.  Sorry for the confusion if someone might want to try to use this formula. 

Thanks for your help in finding my weighing error for the starter.  I would have wondered why the dough was so active. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Pete-zza on August 25, 2010, 08:37:20 PM
Norma,

It is still a good experiment to show what using a fairly large amount of poolish preferment does to the fermentation of the dough. You might also see how the increased acid production has a strengthening effect on the gluten structure and a tendency to produce a more elastic dough.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on August 25, 2010, 10:18:07 PM
Peter,

I am interested how this experiment will work out.  I can understand the poolish preferment was high.  When I went to pull the bulk fermented dough out of the bowl, I saw all that gluten formation.  I will watch the dough balls while they are cold fermenting and see when they are ready to be baked into pies.

Next time I will make sure to measure the starter poolish preferment out right. At least this botched weighing might teach me more about how starters work, when used in higher amounts.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on August 26, 2010, 08:15:07 PM
This is how the dough balls look this evening.  I am going to let them go for another day or two to see if they are useable.  The bottom of the dough balls do look like there is a lot of fermentation going on, but the top of the dough balls looks okay.

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on August 27, 2010, 08:52:45 PM
I baked a Chicken Buffalo Pizza tonight using the dough ball that had been room bulk fermented, balled once and room fermented again and then reballed and finally cold fermented. I thought maybe this dough would be hard to handle, because it looked to me, like the dough ball was overfermenting. 

I was surprised this dough ball was easy to open and didnít show any signs of overfementation.
The Ischia starter incorporated into the Lehmann dough must act different than the preferment Lehmann dough I usually use. The dough ball was left to warm-up for an hour.

The pie was dressed with Kenís Ranch Dressing, chicken I had mixed with Franksí Cayenne Hot Sauce and Butter, blend of Foremost Cheese and Blue Cheese Crumbles.  I baked this pie on my cordierite stone.

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on August 27, 2010, 08:53:46 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on August 27, 2010, 08:55:03 PM
end of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Pete-zza on August 27, 2010, 10:31:59 PM
Norma,

Can you compare the latest pizza with the last one you made with the Ischia starter? And did you prefer one over the other and, if so, why?

Peter
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on August 28, 2010, 07:32:43 AM
Peter,

I enjoyed the pizza that was made last night better than my last attempt.  I had forgot my IR gun at market, from when I was trying out the soapstone there.  My deli fin coils had frozen up Tuesday night, so I had to remove everything from the deli case, put everything in my pizza prep fridge, then go back and sanitize everything and put it all back in the deli case Thursday. From all the humidity we are having in our area this summer, I thought at some point this was going to happen, because the deli case is on all the time.  Friday morning I went to market to make the poolish and forgot the IR gun again, so I didnít have any way of measuring the temperature on the baking stone before I started to bake this pie.  I just left the oven on for one hour.  I donít think the stone was hot enough.  Right at the end of the bake I turned the broiler on.  I should have just left the pizza do a normal bake on the stone.  I think the rim would have gotten a more even color.  The bake took about four Ĺ minutes. When I opened the oven door to take the one picture, I could hear the sizzle of the rim expanding. 

I enjoyed this crust better, because the inside of the crust was moister and in my opinion there was a more complex taste to the crust.  The taste wasnít a sour dough flavor at all.  I had thought by looking at the underneath of the dough ball that it was overfermented, but that wasnít the case.  Did you ever have dough balls that looked overfermented, but we fine when you went to open them?  There were a few little dark specks on the top of the dough ball.  I need to learn and understand better how starters work in a dough balls and just actually how long you can let them cold ferment.  I still have the other dough ball that was bulk fermented, balled and cold fermented.  It also looks on the bottom of the dough ball to be overfermented, but if I find time today, I want to try to make that dough ball into a pizza, using my BBQ set-up with the small soapstone.  I will still have problems with how hot the top firebricks and soapstone are, because I canít measure the temperatures.  I will have to guess the temperatures, like I did last evening. 

I really donít know how dough balls smells that will produce a pie that has a sourdough taste, but when smelling both of these dough balls, they do have a different smell than any of my other dough balls. I havenít ever tasted a pizza crust with a sourdough flavor, so I donít know what to expect. Since I had used more starter in this formula than I should have, what did you expect to happen to these dough balls in terms of them opening and being baked into a pizza?

I also enjoyed this recent pie, because it was a Buffalo Chicken pizza.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Pete-zza on August 28, 2010, 10:30:00 AM
Norma,

Since most of my pizza doughs use small amounts of yeast and since I control temperatures of everything as best I can, I rarely have a problem with doughs overfermenting. After years of using this approach, I think I developed a sixth sense, largely based on technical factors but including some intuition, for when a dough should be ready to use. In a sense, I "program" the dough to be ready when I want to use it. But, on occasion, a dough ball will have its own mind and want to do its own thing and can be ready sooner than I planned. Usually it is temperature related and where I perhaps didn't do a good enough job controlling the finished dough temperature. However, since I use the poppyseed method most of the time, at least until I learn the dough's behavior pattern, things don't get out of control. So, once a dough doubles in volume, I pay close attention and I observe the degree of fermentation as evidenced by the amount of fermentation bubbles that I can see in my glass or plastic container at the sides and bottom.

I also observe the top of the dough to see if it is firm. If it is firm, I usually don't worry about the degree of fermentation of the dough. I also discovered that bubbles can form at the top of the dough yet the dough is not overfermented. If the top of the dough is firm and not billowy or soft, I just pinch the bubbles shut. If the top of the dough is soft and there is a profusion of fermentation bubbles, then I use the dough. You can see examples of bubbles in doughs that were not overfermented at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2238.msg19652.html#msg19652 and at Reply 29 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg36081.html#msg36081. These were doughs leavened with commercial yeast, not a natural starter or preferment. These days I am more lilely to use glass or plastic storage containers to allow me to better see what is happening at the sides or bottoms of the dough balls.

In terms of sourdough flavor, I personally do not like crusts that have a flavor such as one would get in a classic San Francisco sourdough bread. I have never gotten that type of sourness using any of my natural starters/preferments. The flavors have always been complex but not sour.

What I was interested most in your experiment is whether the large amount of Ischia poolish starter you used would produce too much acid that might affect the strength of the gluten structure in a way as to make the dough overly elastic and difficult to open and stretch, which would not be desirable for use at market if you ever took it that far. That might be more common with a poolish that is leavened with commercial yeast and is given a chance to produce a lot of acid in the final dough but it may be that that isn't an issue with a natural starter or maybe your fermentation protocol, including a period of cold fermentation that slowed things down, did not reach the point of producing an overly elastic dough.

My practice when embarking on a dough project such as yours is to frame the issue by working both extremes of the exercise so that I get a clearer perspective of what the parameters are. For example, I might first use a very small amount of starter and then a very large amount of starter while keeping everthing else exactly the same as much as possible. Otherwise, I won't do the experiment. Then, based on the results, including personal preferences that emerge from the exercise, I fill in the gaps with other experiments. Often the results suggest the next experiments to conduct. In your case, you have done two such experiments at somewhat opposite ends, even if the latest one was by accident, so you may already have decided in which direction you want to take your next experiment.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on August 28, 2010, 12:05:00 PM
Peter,

I appreciate you explaining to me how you have developed a ďsixth senseĒ in knowing when dough balls have are overfermented and need to be made into a pizza.  I hope some day I can also know enough about overfermenting, dough balls and will be able to understand all of this.  All the links you provide do help me to understand how dough ferments.

The top of the last dough ball is still firm and there is no evidence of any bubbles on the top.  I just went outside and took pictures of the top of the dough ball and the underneath.  From all that you have explained to me, I think I will continue to watch this dough ball and see if I can let it go and try to make a pizza tomorrow.  At least then the dough ball will be 4 days old, and I could then see if something like using a starter for my market pizzas could work out.  I will continue to do experiments at home to learn more about starters incorporated into the Lehmann dough. 

You are also right, that by accident, this has taught me more about how too much starter can behave in a starter dough.  Probably my next experiment will be to use the normal amounts of starter called for in the formula you set-forth to see how that dough behaves. 

I had learned over time how my preferment Lehmann dough behaves and what all goes into that.  Hopefully, I also will learn all this with the Ischia Lehmann formula.  If you can think of any other tests I should do on this last dough ball, let me know, or if you think I should go about using this dough ball in a different way, also let me know. 

I also find on the first link you posted, and reading down to the post about the three stages of French levain method interesting.  I might try that experiment someday.

http://www.sourdoughhome.com/threestagefrench.html

I appreciate you helping me with this new project.

Pictures below of dough ball in the last Ĺ hour.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Pete-zza on August 28, 2010, 01:35:56 PM
Norma,

I would just treat the second dough ball the same way as you did the first dough ball in terms of using to make a pizza. If I recall correctly, the second dough ball got two hours of room temperature fermentation and was then placed in the refrigerator, where it will have lain in sweet repose for about four days by the time you plan to bake the pizza tomorrow.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Pete-zza on August 28, 2010, 01:38:22 PM
Norma,

I forgot earlier to ask you how you liked the last pizza compared with the milk-based sour dough mix version of the Lehmann pizza you made recently.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on August 28, 2010, 03:15:57 PM
Norma,

I would just treat the second dough ball the same way as you did the first dough ball in terms of using to make a pizza. If I recall correctly, the second dough ball got two hours of room temperature fermentation and was then placed in the refrigerator, where it will have lain in sweet repose for about four days by the time you plan to bake the pizza tomorrow.

Peter

Peter,

The dough ball I plan to use tomorrow was bulk fermented along with the other dough ball for about 6 hrs.  I forgot to write the time on my notes, but remember it took about 2 hrs. for the starter to become active enough and then I mixed the dough, bulk fermented and then divided the bulk fermented dough into two dough balls.  The dough ball that I made into a pizza last evening was then proofed at room temperature another 2 hrs. before I reballed and then put that one in the refrigerator.  I was thinking when I was doing all this, how it could work into making a dough at market with a starter.  I will have to write on my notes the next time exactly how long all this takes.  Market is open doing the week for standholders to work for 9 hrs. each week day.  If this starter Lehmann dough does work, I could go fed the starter and mix the dough while I would be at market Friday.  The time will be the main thing and knowing when the dough bulk ferments enough to be able to then ball and cold ferment.  I can learn this some while doing the experiments at home.  I also have my Hatco unit at market to see if that can help bulk ferment the dough.  I might try at some point of using my proofing box to see how dough will bulk ferment in the proofing box at home.  Since my deli case and pizza prep refrigerator are colder, than my home refrigerator, this might also help with the dough lasting longer.  I am in and out of my home refrigerator all day and at market the coolers stay closed, on non market days.

I would try and see if this last dough ball would last until Monday, but I am too busy doing other things on Monday to be able to do the bake.  I will just watch the dough ball today and hope it will last until tomorrow.  I keep checking on it often.

Norma,

I forgot earlier to ask you how you liked the last pizza compared with the milk-based sour dough mix version of the Lehmann pizza you made recently.

Peter

I liked this pizza with the Ischia starter better than the milk-based sour dough mix version.  That also was very good, but the complex taste in the crust of this Ischia starter Lehmann dough is better in my opinion.  I need to make a trial dough ball with the Ischia starter and see how it bakes in my oven at market.  I can imagine that oven bake will go better, but don't at this time.

I am also anxious to try out the KASL versus the Kyrol flour with the milk-based sour dough.  I just don't have the time to all of this at once.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on August 29, 2010, 06:02:56 PM
I made two more dough balls with the Ischia starter today to bake in my oven at market Tuesday.  I used the correct amount of starter today, fed the starter at 10 am this morning, mixed the dough with the starter at 12 pm, bulk fermented for 5 1/2 hrs and balled the dough at 5:40 pm this afternoon.  I had to run some errands and couldnít watch the bulk fermenting dough, but when I returned home the dough looked like it was bulk fermented enough to ball.

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on August 29, 2010, 06:03:34 PM
rest of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on August 29, 2010, 08:07:16 PM
The Ischia starter incorporated into the Lehmann dough pizza was made this evening in my BBQ grill set-up on a soapstone.  I set-up the BBQ grill a little different with the steel pan with the firebricks inside, and then placed another steel pan of top of the other pan.  I also placed wood chips for BBQ grills in an aluminum pouch, poked with holes.  The wood was cherry. 

I think this dough ball could have gone another day, because there were no bubbles on the top of the dough and the top of the dough ball was still firm, but the bottom of the dough ball sure did look like it was fermenting.  The dough ball was left out to warm up for one hour.  The dough ball was easy to open and it was dressed with my regular tomato sauce, blend of cheese and some mozzarella Steve had made.  Pepperoni was placed on top of the cheeses.  When the pie was baked, basil was placed on top. 

There was only one problem with this bake.  I forgot my BBQ grill set-up isnít big enough for a 14" pizza, so when I launched it into the oven, the one edge hit the back firebricks and made one part of the rim dented. 

Pictures below,

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on August 29, 2010, 08:09:12 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on August 29, 2010, 08:10:48 PM
end of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Pete-zza on August 29, 2010, 09:08:38 PM
Norma,

To help me keep things straight, can you briefly summarize the fermentation history/times of the last two dough balls that you used to make pizzas?

Although the latest pizza was baked in a different oven configuration, can you tell us how it compared with the pizza made with the first dough ball, and which of the two pizzas you preferred, and why?

Peter
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on August 29, 2010, 10:02:38 PM
Peter,

The Ishcia starter was fed on Wednesday morning and I used the formula at the beginning of this thread to make enough dough for two dough balls at: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11700.msg108007.html#msg108007   The starter was active in about 2 Ĺ hrs.  I then mixed the starter into the Lehmann dough and let it bulk ferment for about 6 hrs.  The first dough ball I used to make a pizza at Reply #7 was balled and then room fermented for 2 more hours, balled a second time, before it was place in the fridge.  The dough ball I used to today to make the pizza was balled right after the bulk ferment on Wednesday.  It has been cold fermenting until today. 

I enjoyed the pizza made tonight better than the one I made Friday. The crust had a better flavor in my opinion. I never have tasted a complex taste in the crust before I started making pizza with the Ischia starter. I have enjoyed the other tastes of the crusts of some of the pizzas I made and also most of them with longer fermentation times and also the preferment for the Lehmann dough, but these crusts are different.  I donít know if it was because of the higher bake temperature or not, but I also enjoyed the char on the bottom of todays pizza and the different flavor in the crust.  If I had to pick one pizza, just based on the toppings, I would have a hard time doing that, because I liked both toppings.  The BBQ grill set-up does a quicker bake.  When I was opening the dough ball tonight, I remembered my BBQ grill set-up doesnít bake a 14" pie, so the opened skin was a little thicker than Fridays skin.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: DenaliPete on August 30, 2010, 06:02:46 AM
Norma it looks really fantastic.
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on August 30, 2010, 08:02:57 AM
Norma it looks really fantastic.

DenaliPete,

Thanks for saying the pizza looks fantastic.  :)  I am just venturing into the world of the Ischia starter, without using commercial yeast in the dough. I really like how the Ischia starter gives great flavor to the crust. with different ferment times. I still have a lot to learn about using starters and doing bulk room ferments. I still have no idea where this will take me in learning more about making pizza, but I am enjoying learning about using starters.  I really like watching how the dough ferments at room temperature and also while in the fridge, while it is cold fermenting.  From my other experiences with different doughs and using commercial yeast, this starter acts a lot different.  I did try natural starters made from the "wild yeast" in the air, but those starters didn't seem to have as much leavening power as the Ischia starter.

Norma



Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: DenaliPete on August 30, 2010, 09:55:28 AM
I'm glad that you mentioned that Norma,

I had recently lost my camoldi due to a long dormancy period and was attempting to revive my ischia but decided to just re-order the starters from Ed.

While I was waiting for them to arrive though I tried my hand at capturing my own wild yeast.  One I sat down on the porch outside for a few days with rye flour and water, the other I stored inside the house in a giant locking bin containing only the bowl and a few handfulls of alaskan fireweed (Trying to maximize any chance that I would catch some yeast from the fireweed itself).

In nurturing both of them I definitely notice I don't get an incredible amount of rise from either after feedings.  However, I'm not sure if this is because they are more liquidy or if they just aren't real strong.  I prefer my starter more liquidy because I feel its easier to work with and measure, but I'm very much a baby in the world of starters.  I'm not sure I would get great leavening from either culture yet at this point, though I'm really hoping the fireweed one will take off and thrive.

Anyhow, I don't want to hijack your thread Norma, but I am very interested to hear your results as you tweak and change things here and there.
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on August 30, 2010, 10:22:38 AM
DenaliPete,

I hope your ďwild yeastĒ starters do take off and do well. You arenít high jacking my thread.  I am always interested in what other members are learning and trying.  I also gain knowledge from experiments they do.

I played around with my ďwild yeastĒ starters and a biga on this thread and replys: Toby helped me with my ďwild yeastĒ starters.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9946.msg86978.html#msg86978
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9946.msg87064.html#msg87064
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9946.msg88032.html#msg88032
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9946.msg88104.html#msg88104
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9946.msg88349.html#msg88349
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9946.msg88877.html#msg88877
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9946.msg88991.html#msg88991
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9946.msg89606.html#msg89606

and Mattís great dough and pies with starters at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9946.msg87169.html#msg87169
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9946.msg87186.html#msg87186
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9946.msg88278.html#msg88278

I will keep this thread updated on what I try, in case someone might also want to try the formulas I try or how long I let the dough ferment. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on August 30, 2010, 07:53:58 PM
These are two pictures of one of the dough balls I made yesterday, with the corrected amount of starter.  I am going to let this dough ball try to cold ferment until Thursday.  The other dough ball I made yesterday, I am going to bake in the deck oven tomorrow.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on August 31, 2010, 10:11:31 PM
The one dough ball that was made on Sunday was baked in the deck oven today.  Steve and I kept getting ready to make the pizza out of the dough ball, but we kept having to make pizzas for customers.  Since it was hot in our area today, the dough ball sat out longer than I wanted it to.  The temperature outside was 94 degrees F.  Inside, at my stand the temperatures really got hot today and standing in front of the oven, didnít help.  Since Steve finished his WFO this morning he brought us something to celebrate with.  He makes Mead and bought some regular Mead and also some Cherry Mead.  I had never tasted Mead before, or even knew what it was.  We celebrated his finished WFO with Mead.  Steve also bought two dough balls.  One dough ball was KASL mixed with the  Ischia starter and one dough ball was made with KASL and the Camaldoli starter.  I will post pictures tomorrow of his dough and the pictures of his finished pizzas made with the starters.  He made his dough balls with the starters yesterday.

I think I am already starting to have problems with using starters.  What I canít understand about the pie Steve and I baked in my deck oven was, this pizza didnít turn out anything like the pizzas I made at home with the starters.  I donít know at this time, but maybe this formula doesnít have enough starter added.  The dough ball did get a small bubble in the top of the dough ball from sitting out for the warm-up.  Also this crust didnít taste anything like the other pizzas I made at home, when I used more starter by accident.  The taste of this crust didnít have the complex flavors that the pies I baked at home did.  The crust was good, but no better than the regular preferment Lehmann dough pizzas.  The pie was dressed with tomato sauce and cheese. 

We also had some interesting visitors today at market.  One man was from a pizzeria in Gettysburg and talked to Steve and me for awhile.  He said my regular preferment Lehmann dough was too green.  He told us basically how he makes his dough, but he kept talking so fast that it was hard to understand all what he said. He didnít buy any pizza, but we showed him the dough ball made with the starter. We also had customers from Manhattan and they were also very interesting.  They talked awhile and bought slices of the preferment Lehmann dough pizzas.  They likened those pies with the better New York pies. 

Pictures below of the Mead and pizza made in the deck oven. Last picture is of a slice of Preferment Lehmann pizza.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on August 31, 2010, 10:12:33 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on August 31, 2010, 10:13:57 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on August 31, 2010, 10:15:14 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on August 31, 2010, 10:16:22 PM
last of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 01, 2010, 09:27:27 AM
These are the pictures of Steveís pizzas made with his starters.  He can correct me if I am wrong, but I think he said he used 5% for the starter in the preferment calculating tool,  combined with a Lehmann formula.  I am not sure which Lehmann formula he used.  I believe he also said the dough was left to bulk ferment for 8 hours at room temperature, then one day cold ferment, and the dough balls were left to room ferment at market yesterday about 5 to 6 hours in a very hot ambient temperatures.

This is the pizzeria that I was talking about the owner came to visit us yesterday.  The owner told us they use an old dough method, but I couldnít understand what he meant. I asked him if he just used old dough for making the pizza and he said they do use any old dough and donít let any dough waste, but his old dough method must be different. He said they mix some dough, let it ferment, then let it sit for 3 days (I would guess in the colder), incorporate other ingredients and let it sit out for 5 hours, then cold ferments and he said the dough lasts for 3 days. He said the dough doesnít overferment. He also said they use 2 -2 Ĺ oz. of yeast for 50 lbs. of flour.  He felt my dough that was in the pizza prep fridge and also the dough balls there were on the marble slab, warming up and said it was too green to make pizzas with.  He also said they use some kind of oil from Sysco that has olive oil, garlic and other ingredients in to spray the dough balls.  He said the flavored oil soaks into the dough balls. He said he learned these methods to make pizza in Italy.  He also said he has eleven employees, so he must make many pizzas. 

http://www.eatroccos.com/

http://www.eatroccos.com/history.html

Pictures of Steveís pizzas, made with both starters.  His pizzas were 12" pizzas.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 01, 2010, 09:29:14 AM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 01, 2010, 09:30:11 AM
end of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Matthew on September 01, 2010, 09:53:43 AM
Norma, he's using either a biga or pate fermentee with an indirect mixing method referred to as "impasto indiretto".  Based on his explanation, my guess is that he's using the latter of the two.

Matt
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 01, 2010, 10:11:23 AM
Norma, he's using either a biga or pate fermentee with an indirect mixing method referred to as "impasto indiretto".  Based on his explanation, my guess is that he's using the latter of the two.

Matt

Matt,

Thanks for your help in figuring out how he is making his dough.  :)  It sounded interesting to me, especially how he explained how his dough doesnít overferment and how he said the method brings a great taste to the crust. His yeast amounts seemed low to me. I can understand how this method could help the crust taste better.  If I get to talk to him again, I will ask more questions.  This is the second time he was at my stand talking to me.  This time he went into more detail, but not enough that I understood exactly how he went about making his dough for pizzas.  I will have to plan what to ask him, if he visits again.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Matthew on September 01, 2010, 10:30:42 AM
Matt,

Thanks for your help in figuring out how he is making his dough.  :)  It sounded interesting to me, especially how he explained how his dough doesnít overferment and how he said the method brings a great taste to the crust. His yeast amounts seemed low to me. I can understand how this method could help the crust taste better.  If I get to talk to him again, I will ask more questions.  This is the second time he was at my stand talking to me.  This time he went into more detail, but not enough that I understood exactly how he went about making his dough for pizzas.  I will have to plan what to ask him, if he visits again.

Norma

Norma,
If you're interested in experimenting with a biga I can help you out.

Matt
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Ev on September 01, 2010, 10:53:47 AM
Norma, Thanks for posting the photos of my pies.

The first pie was made with the Camoldi starter. The second was made with Ischia. I got these from Norma who was kind enough to share them with me.
 Both pies were made with KASL, 65% hy., 1.75% salt, 5% (total dough) starter and no oil.
 The first pie seemed to be a bit under cooked although I think it was in the oven plenty long. The cheese has the appearance of being overcooked while the crust has almost no color. The second was about the same but with slightly better color. Flavor wise, the first had a slight sour tang to an otherwise unremarkable taste. The second was much better, IMO. Both pies were a bit tough and chewy as they cooled.
 I have another ball of each dough which I'll make for lunch today in my "pizza grill". Photos to follow.
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 01, 2010, 11:14:31 AM
Norma,
If you're interested in experimenting with a biga I can help you out.

Matt

Matt,

I would be interested in experimenting with a biga, if you could help me.  I appreciate all the help you have given me.  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 01, 2010, 11:17:47 AM
Norma, Thanks for posting the photos of my pies.

The first pie was made with the Camoldi starter. The second was made with Ischia. I got these from Norma who was kind enough to share them with me.
 Both pies were made with KASL, 65% hy., 1.75% salt, 5% (total dough) starter and no oil.
 The first pie seemed to be a bit under cooked although I think it was in the oven plenty long. The cheese has the appearance of being overcooked while the crust has almost no color. The second was about the same but with slightly better color. Flavor wise, the first had a slight sour tang to an otherwise unremarkable taste. The second was much better, IMO. Both pies were a bit tough and chewy as they cooled.
 I have another ball of each dough which I'll make for lunch today in my "pizza grill". Photos to follow.

Steve,

I also agree with the tastes of the pizzas made with your doughs yesterday and when they cooled off how the crust became harder.  I had expected to have more flavor in my crust, made with the starter, but it wasn't meant to be yesterday.  I am anxious to hear how your other bakes will work out in your "pizza grill".   :)

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Pete-zza on September 01, 2010, 11:29:01 AM
Norma,

I think Matt may be right about Rocco's use of a pate fermente (see definition at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza_glossary.html#P), or what I refer to as a "new" old dough. You can read how such a dough is made and used in the Rosada article at http://web.archive.org/web/20040814193817/cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm. See the "Pre-fermented dough" section. It is also possible that Rocco uses leftover dough in some fashion so as not to have to throw it away.

If Rocco uses 2 to 2 1/2 ounces of yeast for 50 pounds (800 ounces) of flour, that comes to 0.25%. That might work for IDY but might be low for ADY or fresh yeast. You might get clarification on that point if Rocco shows up again at your stand. You might also find out what kind/brand of flour he uses if he hasn't already told you.

I wasn't sure I should have entered this post. As your good buddy cranky admonished us recently at Reply 95 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10535.msg107864/topicseen.html#msg107864: Don't give her any ideas. :-D

Peter
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 01, 2010, 12:42:13 PM
Peter,

I also think Matt is right about Roccoís use of a pate fermente.  The way he explained how he goes about using the preferment sure sounds like that.  Thanks for figuring out how much yeast that would be for 50 lbs. of flour.  I didnít get to ask Rocco about his flour, but I did email his business with questions this morning.  Since he seemed to want to share with me how he made his dough, I didnít think it would hurt.  I donít know if I will get a reply or not, but I might find out more.  If he stops by my stand again, I will have more questions ready.

I know cranky does think I am out in left field and lost sometimes, but I am always interested in learning more about everything. cranky really does help me with gardening and other ideas.  Hope he doesnít read this post.  :-D

Do you have any ideas why my starter pizza turned out so differently yesterday?  The complex flavor in the crust, just wasnít there. It was good, but not outstanding.  I was also surprised how that pizza baked in my deck oven.  Unless I can ever get this all figured out, I will stick with my preferment Lehmann dough.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Ev on September 01, 2010, 12:48:38 PM
Wow, what a difference. I heated the pizza grill to almost 700.
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Ev on September 01, 2010, 12:51:40 PM
More
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 01, 2010, 01:09:21 PM
Steve,

Your "pizza grill" did make a big difference in the pies from the same dough you used yestereday.  I think I need to look on craigslist for a BBQ grill like yours.  :-D

Your pies look delicious.  :)  How did they taste?  Was there a complex flavor in the crust?

Thanks for posting your results.  I love the fire in the back of your pizza oven.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Pete-zza on September 01, 2010, 01:56:38 PM
Do you have any ideas why my starter pizza turned out so differently yesterday?  The complex flavor in the crust, just wasnít there. It was good, but not outstanding.  I was also surprised how that pizza baked in my deck oven.  Unless I can ever get this all figured out, I will stick with my preferment Lehmann dough.

Norma,

If I recall correctly, of the last four dough balls you have made, with two of them with the accidentally high preferment quantity and the remaining two with the "correct" preferment quantity, you have one remaining dough ball. If that is correct, then by the time you use the last dough ball (which I believe you have targeted for tomorrow) the four dough balls will have been made and used differently, not only in terms of fermentation protocol but also with different oven configurations. That makes it difficult to compare the results because the biochemistry is different for each dough ball, both quantitatively and qualitatively. Coupled with different bake methods, that makes the analysis very complicated. About the best you can do is rank order the results based on personal preference.

If you liked the results using the larger amount of natural preferment better, then you might want to return to the formulation that gave you those results, to see if they can be recreated and, if so, conduct future experiments with that formulation. Moreover, if your objective is to come up with a naturally leavened dough that you might be able to use at market, I think I would concentrate on that objective until its viability is proven. That will mean having to come up with a fermentation protocol that will fit within the restrictions imposed upon you by the folks who run the market. If time and conditions permit, you might do some experimenting with doughs at home, but I would make that a secondary activity since the results you achieve there might not translate to a market version. You most likely will learn something but it may not be something that will necessarily help you with a market version.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 01, 2010, 02:54:07 PM
Peter,

I have one more dough ball with the corrected amount of starter.  I plan to do the bake on that dough ball on Thursday, if it doesnít ferment too much.

I can understand by using 3 different oven configurations, and different amounts of starters added to the dough,  that it doesnít tell me much of anything and just gets me more confused in how this dough behaves with starters.  I will have to decide what kind of formula and time restraints may all go into making this dough with a starter for market. It might take awhile to figure out if I can use a starter dough in my deck oven.  From what I have seen so far and now with Steveís results in his ďgrill set-upĒ, I have my doubts about what I can achieve at market in the deck oven at the temperatures I normally use.

I had to laugh yesterday when Steve and I were talking to the man that owned Roccoís pizzeria.  He was interested in the starter dough and I let him look at it, after the lid was removed.  He quickly put his nose into the container and proceeded to put his fingers on the dough and feel it.  I said, donít touch that dough, I need to make that into a pizza.  Steve and I both laughed about what I said afterwards.

Thanks for your advise.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Pete-zza on September 01, 2010, 03:03:59 PM
Norma,

Can you remind me what days you do what with your current preferment Lehmann dough and what equipment you use to make the preferment and final dough? Also, it would be helpful to have some temperatures (even if rough) and timelines.

As for the owner of Rocco's, if I was looking for his trade secrets I would have let him bathe in the dough if he wanted.  :-D

Peter
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 01, 2010, 06:53:26 PM
Peter,

Fridays I mix how much poolish I think I will need for Monday, to incorporate into the final preferment Lehmann dough. Then the dough balls are left to cold ferment for one day. I used the formula you set-forth for multipule 15lb. or 10 lb. batches. I watch the weather to think about how many dough balls I might need for Tuesdays and also think about if I have any frozen dough balls.  The equipment I have to mix my dough or poolish is a Hobart mixer that is a 20 qt. mixer.  I have the Hatco Unit that can help the poolish to bubble. That can be used with humidity or not. That could hold plenty of dough to bulk ferment or I also could use my heated, humidified holding cabinet that revolves that holds my whole pies, when they are finished baking.  It is easy to take out the 3 tier revolving stainless steel supports that holds the pies.  That also can hold an even temperature.  I also have enough refrigeration in my deli case to hold enough cold fermenting dough or poolish.  I do have a hot plate to heat water in the winter. My pizza oven is a double deck Bakerís Pride (GP-61) , which is heated with propane gas.  The oven can go to higher bake temperatures than I normally use for the preferment Lehmann dough.  It can reach temperature of around 725 degrees F.  I havenít taken the temperature of the deck oven up many times, but it can get up there in temperatures on the stones.  I have plenty of big Cambro containers with tight fitting lids.  I also have digital scale to weigh out the ingredients for any doughs I make.  If there or other things you need to know about what equipment I have at market, let me know and I will answer if I have that equipment.

The temperatures at market vary greatly.  The market is not air-conditioned and in the winter they turn the propane heaters that are mounted on the ceiling at market, down just enough that pipes donít freeze on non market days.  In the summer the temperatures can and do get up to around 96 degrees F.  In the winter the temperatures of my market stand can be around 44 degrees, when I am working in the stand on non market days.  I do have a ceramic disc heater that I sometimes use in the winter months, to help bring up the temperatures while I am working at the market stand.  The humidity at the market stand can also vary greatly.  In the winter, later fall, and early spring is can be very dry at market.  I have a gauge at market that does measure humidity.  In the summer it can get very humid at market. 

As for the owner of Roccoís pizza, he was very friendly and helpful in giving me information, but I donít like anyone messing with my experiments.  When he told me my preferment Lehmann dough was too green, I really wonder if he knew what he was talking about.  I still do like that dough very much. He also told me that the starter dough ball was not ready and it felt to me that the top was pillowly.  I had at least washed my hands before touching the dough.  Who knows where he had his hands last.  I had told him that the dough in the container was made with a starter from Italy and how I fed the starter and made the dough. He seemed interested in hearing about that.  I think his nose about touched the dough ball, for as fast as he went to smell it, after he had the opened container in his hands.  :-D  I didnít know it before, but he was thinking about opening a pizza stand at Rootís market before I decided to open my stand.  I wonder what would make him want to travel that far for one day a week to operate a one day market stand.  I donít see how he could prepare his dough the way he was telling me he does, when he lives so far away, unless he would bring dough balls from his pizzeria. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Pete-zza on September 01, 2010, 09:00:53 PM
Norma,

Thank you for the detailed explanation of your current procedures.

My recollection is that anything that is sold at market, such as your pizzas, must be made at market, with no advance prep at home. If that is true, then it sounds like you would have to use a sequence like the following: get the starter culture (e.g., Ischia) ready on Friday (using whatever means available to do this); use a starter or preferment quantity of the starter culture to make a bulk dough (e.g., 10-15 pounds); ferment the bulk dough at the prevailing ambient temperature at market or, alternatively using the Hatco unit or the holding cabinet; after the bulk dough has fermented and achieved the desired volume expansion, divide it into individual dough balls; put the dough balls in the deli unit and cold ferment them until Tuesday; and, on Tuesday, let the dough balls warm up at the market ambient temperature before using. Does this sequence seem plausible?

Peter
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 01, 2010, 09:40:00 PM
Norma,

Thank you for the detailed explanation of your current procedures.

My recollection is that anything that is sold at market, such as your pizzas, must be made at market, with no advance prep at home. If that is true, then it sounds like you would have to use a sequence like the following: get the starter culture (e.g., Ischia) ready on Friday (using whatever means available to do this); use a starter or preferment quantity of the starter culture to make a bulk dough (e.g., 10-15 pounds); ferment the bulk dough at the prevailing ambient temperature at market or, alternatively using the Hatco unit or the holding cabinet; after the bulk dough has fermented and achieved the desired volume expansion, divide it into individual dough balls; put the dough balls in the deli unit and cold ferment them until Tuesday; and, on Tuesday, let the dough balls warm up at the market ambient temperature before using. Does this sequence seem plausible?

Peter


Peter,

You are right.  Under Safe-Serve, any food items I make or prepare to be sold have to be made at market, since I do have a license to prepare food there.  Your sequence does sound plausible.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Pete-zza on September 01, 2010, 10:20:12 PM
Norma,

Out of curiosity, I went back to my Nancy Silverton book Breads from the La Brea Bakery since I remembered that she gave a recipe for making sourdough bread. Somewhere along the way, I converted the recipe to baker's percent format and noted the numbers alongside the recipe. The number that stood out in my memory and that prompted me to go back to revisit the recipe was that she used a natural starter culture (preferment) that was about 30-35% of the total formula flour. I believe that figure is a bit less than what you used for your "accidental" dough. From my notes, I also saw that I calculated that the preferment was of a consistency very close to that of a classic poolish (it was a little bit wetter). The total formula hydration was 60.9%, and the salt use was 2.2%, both with respect to the total formula flour. As you can see, apart from the preferment numbers, this set of numbers is close to what you use for your basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation. From the instructions that accompanied the bread recipe, after the final dough was made, it was subjected to a room temperature fermentation at about 70-75 degrees F. The dough doubled in volume in about 3 1/2 to 4 hours.

Ultimately, the dough went into the refrigerator for a cold ferment. However, and here's the rub, Ms. Silverton said to cold ferment the dough for 8-12 hours and no longer than 24 hours. That suggests that it is unlikely that you will be able to use an Ischia preferment that is over 30% of the total formula flour and have the final dough fit within the timeframes you now use at market. You can conduct a simple experiment to see if this is the case, and maybe it is worth trying, but I suspect that you will have to use considerably less than 30+% Ischia preferment to have the dough make it through almost four days of cold fermentation. Fortunately, you at least have the preferment dough calculating tool to be able to easily come up with the numbers for your experiments. Maybe you can try using something between the two values you used for the Ischia preferment to see if that gets you headed in the right direction.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 01, 2010, 10:56:08 PM
Peter,

Thanks for being curious and remembering that Nancy Silverton did give you a recipe for sourdough bread.  I can understand that I will have to experiment with different doughs, when using the Ishcia starter and see what the amount of preferments might be used to achieve a pizza made with the Ischia starter at market. Since the recipe for sourdough bread was probably made at a lower bake temperature, something might work out for a pizza at market.  I will think about all what you have posted over the next week and see if I can think about a formula to try, using the preferment dough calculating tool. My brother is coming to visit in a little over a week, so this project will continue when he leaves.  Your ideas about Nancy Silvertonís sourdough bread recipe are interesting. 

I think the extra dough ball with the starter that I have cold fermenting in the refrigerator, I am going to try and make bread with the dough ball. I canít get any conclusive results with trying another pizza in my home oven or BBQ grill set-up. If the dough ball still looks good until Friday, I will use it in some way. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 02, 2010, 07:58:11 PM
I made bread out of the last dough ball that was cold fermenting in the refrigerator since Sunday, late this afternoon.  I also made some Bruschetta from tomatoes and herbs from my garden and when the bread was cooled and sliced, I turned on the broiler in my oven and toasted some slices of bread and then dressed them with the Bruschetta.

Pictures below,

Norma. 
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 02, 2010, 07:59:15 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 02, 2010, 08:00:12 PM
end of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Ev on September 03, 2010, 08:09:51 AM
Ok, now I'm hungry! ::)
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 03, 2010, 08:15:52 AM
Ok, now I'm hungry! ::)

Steve,

Just save one of your dough balls when you make one and try a bread out of one.  It was easy.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Ev on September 03, 2010, 08:24:43 AM
I will. What temp and for how long did you cook yours?
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 03, 2010, 08:39:22 AM
I will. What temp and for how long did you cook yours?

Steve,

Here is where I posted on how I made this bread. 

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11763.msg108984.html#msg108984

Best of luck if you try the bread.  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: NY pizzastriver on September 03, 2010, 01:54:31 PM
Norma,

SO you like the starter pizza flavor, even at low heat?

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=11700.0;attach=25256;image

Looking at this it looks like the results I got from using 00 at 550, white crust, etc.
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 03, 2010, 04:17:29 PM
Norma,

SO you like the starter pizza flavor, even at low heat?

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=11700.0;attach=25256;image

Looking at this it looks like the results I got from using 00 at 550, white crust, etc.

Jim,

LOL..I made the pizza and the bread with KASL flour, not "00" flour.  I did get better results with the pizza in my BBQ grill set-up, because that can get to higher temperatures.  In my oven at market the pizza didn't brown as much.  When Steve (Ev) did make his pizza with KASL and the starter, he also got better results in his "grill set-up".  I did make one pizza in my home oven, over at the starter thread that browned okay in my home oven, but then I turned on the broiler, for the last minute.  :-D  The bread didn't seem to mind not having high temperatures. 

I see your pizza didn't brown, when you used "00" flour.  I am going to try different starter amounts to see what might happen.  If you are still looking for high-gluten flour, and still live in my area, I can get you some, or they have Kyrol flour (bleached and bromated) at the Country Store between Manheim and Mt. Joy.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: NY pizzastriver on September 04, 2010, 11:01:05 AM
Norma,

Yes I can imagine the grill setup to be better with starters indeed. No I wasn't saying you were using oo, just comparing the 2 results. You're on a roll, keep at it!

 :chef:
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 04, 2010, 11:39:28 AM
Norma,

Yes I can imagine the grill setup to be better with starters indeed. No I wasn't saying you were using oo, just comparing the 2 results. You're on a roll, keep at it!

 :chef:

Jim,

Even using KASL so far, in making a pizza with starters, with  lower bake temperatures, does seem to give make the crust lighter with recent experiments.  I don't know if I am on a roll or not.  It is too early to know about that.  ::)

If you ever want to play with starters, let me know, I do throw some away.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: DenaliPete on September 08, 2010, 05:46:32 AM
Norma,

can you summarize your mixing method with the Lehman dough?  I know that it is in Peter's thread somewhere, but there are so many posts there to sift through I'm afraid I'll miss out on the more current mixing methods if any have changed.
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 08, 2010, 06:52:39 AM
Norma,

can you summarize your mixing method with the Lehman dough?  I know that it is in Peter's thread somewhere, but there are so many posts there to sift through I'm afraid I'll miss out on the more current mixing methods if any have changed.

DenaliPete,

This is the formula I used.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11700.msg108007.html#msg108007

I first removed the Ischia starter from the fridge and fed it.  When it was bubbling I then hand mixed the dough.  I put the natural sea salt in with the flour, put the starter in with the water, and mixed with a fork.  When most of the dough was incorporated with the flour, then I did hand mixing and kneading. This dough was sticky, but not too bad.  The dough was left to room temperature ferment for about 6 hours.  It more than doubled in size.  I used two different methods of fermenting after I divided the dough into two balls.  The one dough ball was cold fermented for 2 days and then made into a pizza.  I didnít oil either of these dough balls.  The second dough ball was left to room ferment for another two hours after balling.  I then placed that dough ball into the refrigerator for a four day cold ferment.  That is the dough ball I used to make the bread.  I would have used the second dough ball to make a pizza, but am finding I need a higher bake temperature for the current formula I am using.  The pizza did work out well in my BBQ grill set-up, but when baked in my deck oven, the pizza turned out okay, but didnít brown enough  or get enough oven spring for me at the lower temperature of my deck oven. 

I am going to try another percentage of starter incorporated into this dough in the coming weeks, to see what happens.  I believe if you have a high enough temperature in your oven or other set-up this dough formula posted at the beginning of this thread does produce a great pizza.  Steve (Ev) and I were talking yesterday and he baked his pies in his ďgrill set-upĒ.  He said there was a difference between night and day of how this formula works at higher temperatures.  He also said the crust tasted great.

If I can be of any other help, just ask.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 10, 2010, 07:47:36 PM
I got my Kitchen Aid mixer deal from Ebay today and couldnít wait to try it.  I mixed this formula tonight.  I had tried to activate my Ischia starter yesterday by feeding it, but it didnít seem to bubble enough, so it went into the refrigerator last evening.  I had to feed it two times today to get it activated enough to mix this dough. 

This is for a 12" pizza 

Formula Ischia Starter Nancy's method

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):                    202.53 g  |  7.14 oz | 0.45 lbs
Water (60.9%):                    123.34 g  |  4.35 oz | 0.27 lbs
Salt (2.2%):                         4.46 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.8 tsp | 0.27 tbsp
Total (163.1%):                  330.32 g | 11.65 oz | 0.73 lbs | TF = 0.103022

Preferment:
Flour:                 30.38 g | 1.07 oz | 0.07 lbs
Water:                 30.38 g | 1.07 oz | 0.07 lbs
Total:                  60.76 g | 2.14 oz | 0.13 lbs

Final Dough:
Flour:              172.15 g | 6.07 oz | 0.38 lbs
Water:                92.96 g | 3.28 oz | 0.2 lbs
Salt:                          4.46 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.8 tsp | 0.27 tbsp
Preferment:        60.76 g | 2.14 oz | 0.13 lbs
Total:               330.32 g | 11.65 oz | 0.73 lbs  | TF = 0.103022

Pictures below of mixer and dough

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 11, 2010, 08:34:51 AM
The dough I made in the last post was left to bulk fermented for 4 hrs. and then balled with a little flour.  This morning the dough looks a lot different than my previous attempts the next day.  There are bubbles on the bottom of the dough ball, but they look a lot smaller than my other attempts the next day.

Picture below of top and bottom of dough ball.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 12, 2010, 08:14:55 AM
Peter,

I wanted to ask you a question about the dough I made from your post at Reply 60  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11700.msg108853.html#msg108853

I think I followed Nancy Silvertonís formula right for what you had posted about a sourdough bread, but I am not sure.  In the post you made you said the rub was that dough wasnít supposed to be cold fermented for more than 24 hours, after the initial bulk rise.

I have been watching that dough ball since Friday evening and it seems to be fermenting slower than my previous dough balls, using a starter.  I wonder if you know why it seems to be fermenting slower. I donít know since using a higher salt amount in the formula if this might also be affecting the fermentation of the dough ball.  Since I never used a Kitchen Aid mixer before and have always mixed by hand at home, I donít know if the initial dough was mixed better or if it was just the formula that is making this dough behave better.  If this dough lasts until Tuesday (which right now it looks like it will), then I will try to make a pizza at market from this dough ball.

Sorry to be asking you these questions, but I am trying to understand what is happening with this dough ball.  The bubbles also seem to be smaller on the bottom of the dough ball.  The top of the dough ball is still firm.

This dough ball was just an experiment to see what would happen with using the amount of starter and salt values that Nancy Silverton used for sourdough bread. 

Pictures below of the dough ball this morning.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Pete-zza on September 12, 2010, 01:54:19 PM
Norma,

When I posted the reply you referenced, I left out some of the Silverton steps since she was making bread rather than pizza and I didn't want to confuse you with all of the other details. For example, she used a classic autolyse (20 minutes) before adding the salt and finishing the knead, a first fermentation at a room temperature of 70-75 degrees F for 3 1/2-4 hours (to achieve doubling of the dough), pre-shaping and dividing the bulk dough into dough pieces, letting the individual dough pieces rest (15 minutes), shaping the dough pieces into round balls, conducting an intermediate proofing of the dough balls at a room temperature of 70-75 degrees F for one hour (to allow the dough balls to rise by about a quarter), and then retarding the dough balls in the refrigerator for 8-12 hours but not more than 24 hours. Ms. Silverton was also using more dough than you used for your latest experiment, which might have had different fermentation characteristics. With all of the differences, I wasn't sure how your dough would perform using similar baker's percents but not all of the intermediate steps. I felt the best way to find out was to just try an experiment along the lines you conducted with your latest dough.

It is also possible that the higher salt amount slowed down the fermentation of your dough but, at about 30% poolish (with respect to the total flour weight), I am not sure if the added salt would impede the fermentation that much. It is also possible that your Ischia culture/preferment was not quite ready for prime time. If you achieve good results on Tuesday, you will perhaps want to do a few more iterations of the formulation to confirm your results, or make adjustments based on those results.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Essen1 on September 12, 2010, 02:38:18 PM
Peter,

I have the book but was wondering on which page you found the instructions. There are several instructions for starters, etc.

Thanks...
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Pete-zza on September 12, 2010, 03:28:58 PM
I have the book but was wondering on which page you found the instructions. There are several instructions for starters, etc.

Mike,

It is The Basic Loaf: Country White, which is a two-day bread recipe, at pages 40-55.

Peter

Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Essen1 on September 12, 2010, 03:33:55 PM
Cool.

Thanks, Peter.
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Essen1 on September 12, 2010, 03:44:31 PM
Peter,

I hope I'm not hijacking Norma's thread but on Page 53, first sentence, Silverton mentions that doughs that contain olive oil don't rise as much during the bake.

Could that be a contributing factor occasionally when it comes to a lack of oven spring in pizza doughs containing olive oil? Would make sense, no?
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Pete-zza on September 12, 2010, 04:11:51 PM
Mike,

That's a good question. It seemed to me that I read something by Tom Lehmann over at the PMQ Think Tank that oil helped with volume expansion but I couldn't come up with keywords specific enough to lead me to the post where he discussed this subject and to confirm what I thought he said. However, I am not sure that 1% oil that Norma normally uses with her Lehmann NY style doughs is enough to have a material effect on dough expansion during baking. The only effect that I recall Tom Lehmann attributing to oil used in his Lehmann NY style formulation was flavor. You will also note that in the dough formulation that Norma posted earlier in this thread at Reply 75 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11700.msg109752.html#msg109752, she did not use any oil at all. I don't know if that was intentional but the oil won't be a factor in her experiment although she might be able to comment on the effect of its omission.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 12, 2010, 04:40:24 PM
Peter,

I knew that formula was for making bread and not pizza, but wanted to do the experiment to see how much difference there is in making a formula for bread or pizza dough.  When I tried the bread out of the same starter dough formula at had used to make pizza at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11700.msg108948.html#msg108948 it made me wonder more about making pizza and bread out of the same dough when using starters.  The same dough did seem to work out for both pizza and bread, although I am not that experienced in making bread.  I thought I would do the experiment with what information you gave me on Nancy Silvertonís bread formula.  I see now I didnít follow all the instructions for making the bread.  I had fed my Ischia starter on Thursday and twice on Friday before I made this dough ball.  The Ischia starter after the second feeding on Friday did bubble very much in two hours after the second feed.  I thought the starter was very active then, so that is when I made the dough.  The finished dough temperature was 75 degrees F.  I can understand that having a bigger batch of dough might speed along the fermentation process. 

Thanks for your thoughts on this dough.  To answer Mikeís one question about not using oil in this pizza dough, I had just wanted  to use the Ischia starter with no oil in this experiment to see what kind of results I would get. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 12, 2010, 04:47:04 PM
Peter,

I hope I'm not hijacking Norma's thread but on Page 53, first sentence, Silverton mentions that doughs that contain olive oil don't rise as much during the bake.

Could that be a contributing factor occasionally when it comes to a lack of oven spring in pizza doughs containing olive oil? Would make sense, no?

Mike,

I never read anywhere that oil might affect the rise of dough, but I can always learn something new.  I don't have any problems with my regular preferment dough and oven spring when I bake that into a pizza, with oil added.  Will be interesting to see what happens with this dough.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Essen1 on September 12, 2010, 11:06:05 PM
Norma & Peter,

I wasn't so much talking about Norma's dough per se, just posted that question in general since I've seen a few posts with an olive oil content above one percent from members who did have problems with oven spring and thought it could be related.

Me, unfortunately, included.  :(
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 13, 2010, 12:28:10 AM
Mike,

I have tried pizzas will higher oil amounts and didnít see problems with oven spring, but I am not sure if oil has anything to do with oven spring.  This is a formula I tried out with higher amounts of oil. At that time, my dough management skills werenít the best, but here is the link to the formula I used.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg75889.html#msg75889   

This is the link to where the finished pies were posted.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg76149.html#msg76149

I have tried not using oil in my preferment Lehmann dough by accident and could have added the oil, but experimented with it without oil.  I found the crust on that dough without oil didnít turn out well and I had to throw out the whole batch.  I have done a fair amount of experiments on different doughs with different amounts of oil and so far what I have learned is dough management, dough formula, fermentation times, amounts of yeasts, starters, oven temperatures, oven set-ups, opening techniques, finished dough temperature, flour type, salt types and so much more all come into play in oven spring.  I donít know if I will ever be able to figure all this out either.  :-\  Just one variable can change a pizza in my opinion. 

Right now it seems to me that dough without oil needs higher bake temperatures, but I will keep experimenting to find out if this is true.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Pete-zza on September 13, 2010, 10:10:29 AM
I attempted to discuss the effects of oil quantity on finished rim size, also in the context of the Papa John's clone doughs, at Reply 11 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58438.html#msg58438 (in response to a question posed by member Buffalo). As I noted there, and as Randy has noted elsewhere on this forum in relation to his PJ clones, using a higher hydration (better than 60%) seems to yield a larger rim size.

Subsequently, and perhaps more relevant to Norma's experiments in this thread, I made a natural preferment (Ischia) version of a PJ clone dough, as discussed in Reply 38 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg60892.html#msg60892. In that case, I was intentionally trying to keep the rim size small but at least the experiment showed that it was possible to use a large amount of oil in a naturally leavened dough. I suspect that had I not tried to keep the rim size small, the rim might still have remained small because the total formula hydration was only 56%. Norma might also note that I used the Ischia preferment at 25% of the total formula flour weight, which is not much less than she used for the last experiment. She will also see how a culture/preferment that is not quite ready for prime time can affect the way a dough ferments and the duration of fermentation.

To the above, I should also note that the last PJ pizza I purchased from Papa John's had a larger rim size than normal. However, in that case, the store was being slammed with orders and, in anticipation of that situation, the workers had pre-made a few dozen undressed skins and let them sit in trays awaiting orders. As the skins sat, they proofed and developed large rims. As a result, my baked pizza had a larger than normal rim. So, as Norma noted, there can be many factors that influence oven spring and final rim size.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 14, 2010, 06:21:27 AM
Peter,

Thanks for referencing that link where you used an Ischia preferment at 25% of the total formula flour weight for a PJ clone dough.  I never saw that post before.  I see your dough didnít expand that much in 4 Ĺ days and you let the dough sit at room temperature to help the dough ferment better.  My dough ball smells good, but hasnít fermented like the other doughs that I have made in the past with the Ischia preferment. It has been cold fermenting for about 4 days.  I will see how the bake goes later on today.  I also noted that you did get a flavor profile of a naturally-leavened dough that has been fermented for a long while.  Your pizza looked very tasty.  :)  The dough has a very yeasty beer smell.  I will see if I have to let the dough sit out at room temperature for a longer while today. 

As this dough with the Ischia starter doesnít have any oil added, I will see if my deck oven can do a decent job of baking this pie.  I still have my doubts about baking a dough without oil in the temperatures my deck oven are normally.   :-\

Pictures below,

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 14, 2010, 09:38:47 PM
I used the dough ball with the Ischia starter to make a pizza today.  When I removed the dough ball from the deli case, this afternoon, it had formed a bubble on the top of the dough ball.  I only let it warm-up for an hour.  The dough ball was easy to open. I didnít think this formula would produce a brown crust without oil in the dough, in the temperatures I use to bake in the deck oven. 

I am going to do this same experiment, with the same formula, but add oil in the next experiment.  As can be seen on these pictures, the crust didnít get brown, but the rim did have some oven spring. 

Pictures below

Norma   
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 14, 2010, 09:40:21 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 14, 2010, 09:41:23 PM
end of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Pete-zza on September 14, 2010, 09:56:43 PM
Norma,

Apart from the crust coloration issue, how did the pizza and crust taste, and do you have any other observations of note?

Peter
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 14, 2010, 10:15:13 PM
Norma,

Apart from the crust coloration issue, how did the pizza and crust taste, and do you have any other observations of note?

Peter

Peter,

The crust tasted good and I could taste that a preferment was used, but the crust wasnít exceptional, in terms of the taste.  I donít know if adding oil will contribute to the taste of the crust or not, but believe it could help the coloration issues. The crust was crunchy, when it was cut.  The extra salt didnít seem to make any difference in the taste of this crust.  I enjoyed this pizza, but think it could get much better, but I am not sure what to try next.  I also donít know if the dough could have lasted another day.  This morning there wasnít any bubble on the dough ball and by this afternoon, a bubble had appeared.  The rim was moist, but I think I could have taken the pizza out of the oven sooner, but I wanted to see if it would brown more.  I was satisfied with how much oven spring this pizza had, although it didnít get as much oven spring as my regular preferment Lehmann dough.

Do you have any ideas of what I could try in my next experiment? 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Pete-zza on September 15, 2010, 10:25:47 AM
Norma,

I do not believe that using oil in the last dough formulation will materially improve the browning of the crust, especially if you are thinking of using 1% oil as you have been doing with your various Lehmann doughs. When I think of oil in the context of pizza dough, I view it from two angles--the oil in the dough itself and oil on the surface of the dough. A main purpose of the oil in the dough is to hold moisture, which might result in improved oven spring (which we discussed earlier in this thread), and also to provide flavor in the finished crust. The degree of these effects, including textural effects on the finished crumb, will depend on the amount of oil used. The oil on the dough can contribute to crust coloration because of its good heat transfer characteristics. That is one reason why some people will brush the rim of an unbaked pizza to get more color, or they will liberally coat a pizza pan to essentially "fry" the bottom crust to get increased color. I might mention that I had an exchange some time ago with Tom Lehmann on the effect of a small amount of oil in the NY style dough, and his only answer was flavor. He never mentioned crust color. Also, when I experimented with emergency versions of the Papa John's clone doughs, I found it necessary to use honey in the dough to get good crust coloration, despite the fact that the dough had over 7% oil. If oil in the dough can materially affect the crust coloration, then 7% oil should have done the trick.

You can read a bit more on the subject of oil in the last paragraph of Reply 24 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7761.msg67196/topicseen.html#msg67196.

I think that what happened with your most recent dough is that it was low on residual sugar, most likely because of overfermentation or near overfermentation of the dough. If I am correct on this, I would assign the blame on the use of too much poolish. Just as using a large amount of commercial yeast in a dough fermented for several days can lead to sugar exhaustion (depletion), the same thing can happen when using large amounts of natural preferments. The result is low residual sugar levels, low pH values and a less than optimal relationship between pH and residual sugar levels, reduced oven spring, and reduced Maillard reactions that contribute to crust browning. The poolish itself, due to its high hydration value (100%), will accelerates the fermentation of the dough, and is harder than lower hydration preferments on sugar depletion. The condition and state of readiness of the culture (the Ischia culture in your case), along with fermentation temperature, can also have an effect on the factors mentioned above, and particularly the timing (e.g., the duration of the fermentation of the dough). Of course, the main advantage of using a natural poolish over commercial yeast is that you end up with a crust with a more complex flavor profile.

I realize that you were conducting an experiment and wanted to see how the Silverton bread dough making methods might work out in your work setting but I think the solution is to use less poolish and try to adapt its use to the timeframe within which you need to work to offer a naturally-leavened Lehmann product at market. If you can get your Ischia culture to a highly active condition, I think I would use about 15% poolish (by weight of the total formula flour) for your next experiment, and use a sequence of room temperature fermentation, cold fermentation, and final warm-up before using. Its been a long time since I have worked with natural cultures, which has made me rusty on their use, but maybe other members who work actively with such cultures can help you with the timing aspects of the experiment. My recollection is that you laid out your market timelines at Reply 57 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11700.msg108808.html#msg108808. As previously noted, it may take some effort to try to offer a viable commercial product on one day a week when using a natural culture that has to be maintained the other six days. If you made pizzas every day, or nearly every day, I am sure the task would be much simpler.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 15, 2010, 10:57:33 AM
Peter,

Thank you for going what could give me better crust coloration and a more complex flavor in a Ishcia preferment dough.  Since I didnít use any oil to coat this dough ball, I understand this might be something else I could try. 

I also believe my recent dough was low on residual sugar, as I saw the bubble did form, while it was still in the deli case.  The only thing about that dough ball that still is a mystery to me is that it didnít show signs of being overfermented when I opened the dough ball. 

I can see that I also need to study more and watch when my Ischia starter is at its peak performance.

I will take your recommendation and use 15 % poolish, by the weight of the total formula flour in figuring out another attempt at this experiment.  I am also not sure how much oil to use in figuring out the formula, but will probably go with !%.  I will also oil the dough ball this time. 

I can understand that even with many experiments this approach might not work out for market, since I only make pizzas one day a week.  At least it will give me more experience with starters and finding out how finicky they are.  I also can learn more about Ischia doughs, bulk fermenting and whatever else goes into making dough with this starter. 

Your recollection is right about the link to my market timelines. 

Thanks,

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Pete-zza on September 15, 2010, 11:40:05 AM
The only thing about that dough ball that still is a mystery to me is that it didnít show signs of being overfermented when I opened the dough ball. 

Norma,

I noted that and also wondered why you didn't see more obvious signs of overfermentation or near overfermentation. However, when I went back to your dough formulation at Reply 75 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11700.msg109752.html#msg109752, I saw that you used 2.2% salt. I can't say for sure, but maybe that value of salt was high enough to impede the performance of protease enzymes in the flour that, under normal conditions, act to attack the gluten structure and weaken it. If there is sufficient gluten destruction, the dough can be slack, wet and hard to open up in the usual manner. The level of salt you used might also have had an initial effect of strengthening the gluten structure, thereby reducing the subsequent activity of the protease enzymes. I discussed these effects of salt, and other effects as well, including the effect of salt on the fermentation process, at Reply 26 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.msg13425/topicseen.html#msg13425.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 15, 2010, 01:31:10 PM
Peter,

Thank you for referencing that link.  I had also wondered about the salt amount and how it could affect that dough ball.  I had mixed the poolish Ischia preferment in with the water, put that mixture into the Kitchen Aid mixer, then mixed the real sea salt into the flour with a fork, before I placed the flour into the Kitchen Aid mixer.  I did sift the flour first. My thinking was if I mixed the salt into the flour it shouldnít affect the preferment with the water. The real sea salt is really fine and I still have no idea if this kind of salt will act differently than a regular Kosher salt in a dough. I really donít know if other members have tried this kind of salt in a dough before.  At least I havenít ever read a post about using real sea salt.   This also was my first attempt to use a Kitchen Aid mixer, so I had also wondered how that variable might change my results, instead of hand mixing, which I usually do at home.  I try to think of each new variable I might use in making any dough. 

This dough seemed higher in hydration than 60.9 % when it was finished mixing, before the bulk ferment.  After reading the article you referenced it still confuses me more on what happened with that dough ball.  If all the conditions have to be right for a dough to be optional in performance and not overferment with using a preferment, I can understand using something like the Ischia starter will be more difficult to understand.  The higher levels of salt and the kind of salt I used might have an effect on the protease enzymes in the dough.  It will be hard to understand just when all this factors come into play and if any of these variables will change the results. 

I will try to make another dough on Friday and see what kind of results I can achieve.  As I posted before that dough ball opened so well and showed no other signs of overfermentaion other than the bubble on the top of the dough ball.   I could have opened that dough ball much bigger than 12".  I took the tape measure and measured the opened skin, so it would be 12".  I did have other doughs that I made that did show signs of overfermentation when trying to open the dough, so at least I do understand some, what to look for.

There is always a mystery with any dough.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Pete-zza on September 15, 2010, 03:07:21 PM
Norma,

I believe that I first became aware of the Real Salt sea salt from member Les' post at Reply 17 at
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1531.msg14386/topicseen.html#msg14386. Another member who also was fond of the Real Salt sea salt was Sour_Jax (Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1579.msg14467/topicseen.html#msg14467). I tried the Real Salt sea salt until I ran out. After that, I tried other sea salts. I now use a ground up form of Baleine coarse sea crystals from France. Sea salts have mineral and other nutrients that are good for yeast. However, I have also tried the Morton's Kosher salt and various brands of table salt (the kind that are packaged in tube-shape containers) and can't say that I notice major differences. However, I prefer to avoid the brands of table salt that contain all kinds of additives and chemicals. I am told that the best brand of Kosher salt is the Diamond Crystal salt. However, it is not sold anywhere near where I live.

The dough calculating tools do not distinguish between regular and sea salts. Different sea salts have different amounts of sodium and different mineral compositions but there are far too many sea salts to be able to find a way of differentiating them from regular salt for purposes of the dough calculating tools.

Unless your poolish was not exactly 50/50 flour/water, it is possible that the total hydration was higher than stated in the dough formulation you posted. That might have accounted for what appeared to you to be a more highly hydrated dough.

Working with natural cultures and preferments can be challenging, because of all the factors involved. I think you can now see why bakers welcomed the invention of commercial yeasts, even at the loss of some of the artisanal qualities of their breads that they made before commercial yeasts became available to them.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 15, 2010, 04:49:16 PM
Peter,

Thanks for finding those links for Edmonds real salt from Les and Sour_Jax. Les was also on to something other than his great sauce recipe. I use real salt, but have other salts as well.  I usually just use Mediterranean Sea Salt in my cooking and to flavor my foods.  I never heard of Baleine coarse sea crystals from France.  I also havenít found Diamond Crystal Salt in my area, but havenít looked to hard.  I donít try to salt my foods to much, but try not to use ordinary table salt.
 
I know the dough calculating tools canít distinguish between regular and sea salts.  That would create another mess, in trying to figure out dough formulations.

I have been weighing what I put into my starters, for a poolish, but canít be sure the hydrations numbers arenít off.  When I used the Ischia starter, it did look like the poolish I make at market.  Our weather is cooler in our area and also drier, with a lot less humidity.  That is also another variable to think about with the hydration of making a dough.  When I do the final mix at market for my preferment Lehmann dough, with the humidity higher and also with the fans running, it can make a difference in my final dough and how it feels.  I have learned to add a little more water or less to compensate.  I might need to learn to adjust this dough too, if I can ever get this dough figured out.  I can see how challenging it is going to be to see if this would ever work out at market.  At least for now, I am very well satisfied what I can make out of the preferment Lehmann dough.  I can see why bakers welcomed commercial yeast.  I have always strived for a more artisan pizza and dough, so I will see if this will lead me anywhere or not.

I will start feeding the Ischia starter tomorrow and see what happens until Friday. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 16, 2010, 11:56:41 AM
I removed the Ischia starter from the fridge this morning and fed it equal amounts of water and flour.  Will see how many feedings it takes to become active.

Picture below

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Pete-zza on September 17, 2010, 01:17:15 PM
It seemed to me that I read something by Tom Lehmann over at the PMQ Think Tank that oil helped with volume expansion but I couldn't come up with keywords specific enough to lead me to the post where he discussed this subject and to confirm what I thought he said.

Today, while I was looking for something else, I stumbled upon the Tom Lehmann post at the PMQ Think Tank that I was looking for. It is toward the end of the post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6175&p=40137&hilit=#p40142.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 17, 2010, 01:44:13 PM
Peter,

Thanks for finding Tom Lehmannís post about oil in dough.  That was an interesting read.  When I try to search for something on PMQ think tank, I have so many problems going though all the posts and finding what I want.

I did feed my Ischia starter two times yesterday and then put it in the fridge overnight.  I pulled it out of the fridge this morning and fed it again.  I am going to feed it again, to make sure it is ready for a dough later today. 

Picture below of starter after 2 Ĺ hr.  Hopefully when I try to make this dough with oil, it will give me different results than my last dough.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 18, 2010, 06:03:56 PM
Next attempt for Ischia starter dough.  This time I did add oil to the formula and also oiled the dough ball. 

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):                273.98 g  |  9.66 oz | 0.6 lbs
Water (60.9%):                166.85 g  |  5.89 oz | 0.37 lbs
Salt (2.2%):                     6.03 g | 0.21 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.08 tsp | 0.36 tbsp
Oil (1%):                             2.74 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.61 tsp | 0.2 tbsp
Total (164.1%):                  449.6 g | 15.86 oz | 0.99 lbs | TF = 0.103022

Preferment:
Flour:                         20.55 g | 0.72 oz | 0.05 lbs
Water:                         20.55 g | 0.72 oz | 0.05 lbs
Total:                           41.1 g | 1.45 oz | 0.09 lbs

Final Dough:
Flour:                         253.43 g | 8.94 oz | 0.56 lbs
Water:                       146.31 g | 5.16 oz | 0.32 lbs
Salt:                                   6.03 g | 0.21 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.08 tsp | 0.36 tbsp
Preferment:                         41.1 g | 1.45 oz | 0.09 lbs
Oil:                                   2.74 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.61 tsp | 0.2 tbsp
Total:                          449.6 g | 15.86 oz | 0.99 lbs  | TF = 0.103022

I also did use my Kitchen Aid Mixer to mix this dough.

Video of Kitchen Aid almost finished mixing the dough.  Dough was 75 degrees F and left for 5 hours to bulk ferment before balling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M8WgPnEUG4

Picture of dough ball with poppy seeds placed 1" apart.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: StrayBullet on September 19, 2010, 02:47:13 PM
Some great reading here, especially for anyone wanting to start down this path!  How'd this one turn out?

Sorry for the stupid question...am I correct in assuming that you scooped 41g of starter out of the above pictured container (in front of computer) and mixed the remaining ingredients to make the final dough?  Thanks!

Mark
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 19, 2010, 03:32:15 PM
Some great reading here, especially for anyone wanting to start down this path!  How'd this one turn out?

Sorry for the stupid question...am I correct in assuming that you scooped 41g of starter out of the above pictured container (in front of computer) and mixed the remaining ingredients to make the final dough?  Thanks!

Mark

Mark,

I am also really only starting to learn about starters.  That is why I try to document as much as I can, so if something works out for me, then at least other people will be able to see what I did. 

This dough ball in going to be left to cold ferment until Tuesday, if it makes it that long.  It will then be made into a pizza.  I am watching the poppy seeds to see how far they move apart.  That can tell how much the dough is fermenting. 

It isnít a stupid question to ask about how I measured the starter.  You are right that I scooped and the starter out of the container, that was in front of the computer.  I did weigh how much starter I put in this formula.  It was 41.1 grams or rounded off to 41 grams. 

If you have any other questions..just ask.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Matthew on September 19, 2010, 05:06:21 PM
Norma,
The amount of starter that you are using is quite a bit so it will be ready fairly quickly; providing that you have a vigorous starter.  This value is more in line with bread baking as oppose to pizza dough.  When it comes to pizza dough; less is more.  Less starter=longer fermentation=better flavor &  lighter texture. 

Matt
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 19, 2010, 05:16:42 PM
Norma,
The amount of starter that you are using is quite a bit so it will be ready fairly quickly; providing that you have a vigorous starter.  This value is more in line with bread baking as oppose to pizza dough.  When it comes to pizza dough; less is more.  Less starter=longer fermentation=better flavor &  lighter texture. 

Matt

Matt,

I am just learning how to use starters and have only begun to experiment with how they behave when making the dough. I only let this recent dough bulk ferment for 5 hours, before balling and putting it into the refrigerator.  I know Marco only says to use between 1%-5% starter for a pizza dough.  I have no idea how this recent dough will turn out.  My starter was vigorous when I used it for this dough. 

Thanks for your advise when it comes to pizza dough: less is more.  I appreciate you helping me learn.  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Pete-zza on September 19, 2010, 06:15:41 PM
Matt,

Norma's problem is that she has a logistics dilemma. She makes pizza at market only one day of the week, on Tuesday's, and everything has to be done on the premises. She cannot make or start things at home and bring them to market. If she were to use the Ischia starter at market at, say, 5% of the formula water (8.3 grams of the Ischia starter), to abide by the percent that Marco (pizzanapoletana) uses to distinguish pizza dough from bread dough, and then go straight to the deli case/cooler, I don't think that she would get sufficient fermentation by the time she has to use the dough. Or maybe she would have to use an extraordinarily long temper time to get adequate fermentation, which might not be possible if she has to start selling pizzas at around lunchtime. I don't know if Norma can find a way to use only an ambient temperature fermentation scheme, based on using an Ischia starter of up to 5% of the formula water, that would fit within the hours of the market within which Norma is required to operate. You might recall that Marco advocated the use of small quantities of starter (up to 5% of the formula water) for a room temperature fermentation only. Since he was not a believer of using cold fermentation with natural starters and the Caputo flour, he never told us how to use such starters in a cold fermentation scheme.

I think Norma's solution may be a sequence of ambient temperature bulk fermentation/division, cold fermentation, and a temper period. If I am correct on this, this means that Norma may have to give up something in the quality or characteristics of the finished crust and crumb. Until Norma can assess the results, we won't know if what she loses is material or even noticeable by her and her tasters. If Norma is successful with using her Ischia preferment at 15% of the formula flour, with room to spare, then she might be able to scale back the amount of Ischia preferment the next time. Right now, Norma is only trying to figure out if there is a scheme that will fit the window of hours that she has to stay within at market.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Essen1 on September 19, 2010, 06:22:59 PM
I'm wondering if Norma could go in, to the market, on Mondays early in the morning to prepare the dough for Tuesday's lunch or isn't she permitted to have access on her days off?

That would give her at least a 24 hr fermentation window, perhaps 36 hrs if she can go in early enough on a Monday. But I don't know if that's possible...

Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Matthew on September 19, 2010, 06:44:43 PM
Matt,

Norma's problem is that she has a logistics dilemma. She makes pizza at market only one day of the week, on Tuesday's, and everything has to be done on the premises. She cannot make or start things at home and bring them to market.
I think Norma's solution may be a sequence of ambient temperature bulk fermentation/division, cold fermentation, and a temper period. If I am correct on this, this means that Norma may have to give up something in the quality or characteristics of the finished crust and crumb. Until Norma can assess the results, we won't know if what she loses is material or even noticeable by her and her tasters. If Norma is successful with using her Ischia preferment at 15% of the formula flour, with room to spare, then she might be able to scale back the amount of Ischia preferment the next time. Right now, Norma is only trying to figure out if there is a scheme that will fit the window of hours that she has to stay within at market.

Peter


Yes that would be a problem.  What I would do if I was faced with this situation & wanted to use a starter is go with a different starter altogether.  There are other starters available that have much quicker proofing windows.
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 19, 2010, 07:16:00 PM
Matt,

Norma's problem is that she has a logistics dilemma. She makes pizza at market only one day of the week, on Tuesday's, and everything has to be done on the premises. She cannot make or start things at home and bring them to market. If she were to use the Ischia starter at market at, say, 5% of the formula water (8.3 grams of the Ischia starter), to abide by the percent that Marco (pizzanapoletana) uses to distinguish pizza dough from bread dough, and then go straight to the deli case/cooler, I don't think that she would get sufficient fermentation by the time she has to use the dough. Or maybe she would have to use an extraordinarily long temper time to get adequate fermentation, which might not be possible if she has to start selling pizzas at around lunchtime. I don't know if Norma can find a way to use only an ambient temperature fermentation scheme, based on using an Ischia starter of up to 5% of the formula water, that would fit within the hours of the market within which Norma is required to operate. You might recall that Marco advocated the use of small quantities of starter (up to 5% of the formula water) for a room temperature fermentation only. Since he was not a believer of using cold fermentation with natural starters and the Caputo flour, he never told us how to use such starters in a cold fermentation scheme.

I think Norma's solution may be a sequence of ambient temperature bulk fermentation/division, cold fermentation, and a temper period. If I am correct on this, this means that Norma may have to give up something in the quality or characteristics of the finished crust and crumb. Until Norma can assess the results, we won't know if what she loses is material or even noticeable by her and her tasters. If Norma is successful with using her Ischia preferment at 15% of the formula flour, with room to spare, then she might be able to scale back the amount of Ischia preferment the next time. Right now, Norma is only trying to figure out if there is a scheme that will fit the window of hours that she has to stay within at market.

Peter

Peter,

You are right that I do have a logistics dilemma and donít know what is going to happen with any different methods I might try in using a starter at market.  If I just made this pizza at home, then there wouldnít be all these problems.  You are also right that I might be losing material differences in the taste of this finished crumb and crust.  I donít know if any member on this forum has ever tried the approach I am using, but can see after trying experiments if this might work.  In the end, I think this approach might be too difficult with all the differences in ambient temperatures I am faced with, but at least I will give it a shot.

I also donít know what differences using KASL flour in combination with a starter, instead of using a lower protein flour will have on my results, but since I bake in a lower temperature oven, know I canít use something like Caputo. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 19, 2010, 07:24:27 PM
I'm wondering if Norma could go in, to the market, on Mondays early in the morning to prepare the dough for Tuesday's lunch or isn't she permitted to have access on her days off?

That would give her at least a 24 hr fermentation window, perhaps 36 hrs if she can go in early enough on a Monday. But I don't know if that's possible...



Mike,

I can go to market on Monday between 8:00 am to 5:00 pm.  I do go to market on Mondays to do my final mix now for the preferment Lehmann dough.  I am allowed at market any day of the week between the hours I mentioned above.  What is my biggest problem is that market temperatures fluctuate all over the place, from each week to the next.  I can have temperatures between 44 degrees to temperature of 99 degrees.  I do start making pizza around 8:30 am and continue making pizza until about 8:00 pm at night.  Right now my preferment Lehmann dough works out okay with all these variable temperature changes and long hours at market, but can see the many problems with trying to use a starter in the dough.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 19, 2010, 07:25:56 PM

Yes that would be a problem.  What I would do if I was faced with this situation & wanted to use a starter is go with a different starter altogether.  There are other starters available that have much quicker proofing windows.

Matt,

What kind of starter would you recommend that could have a much quicker proofing window?

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Pete-zza on September 19, 2010, 07:55:12 PM
Norma,

I have successfully used a similar formulation from the standpoint of percent of preferment (about 15% of the total formula flour) on several occasions, for several different types of dough, so I believe that there is a combination that will work. I just don't know how to format it to fit within your timing window with precision. With perseverance, you may ultimately achieve a Pyrrhic victory with your Ischia preferment, or possibly with some other starter/preferment as Matt has suggested, but the cost may be too high from the standpoint of the value received for the effort expended. That is something that only you will be able to judge. After all, you are not attempting to be like Pete Taylor or Anthony Mangieri trying to targer a high income demographic looking for a highly artisan product to consume with fine wines and beers and with prices to match. So, it is up to you to decide whether to give it the old Milton Hershey try and press on. If you do, we will all learn and benefit from your efforts. At the least, you will force us to think, which is always a good thing.

I have also been thinking recently of the possibility of your using lactic acid as an additive for your basic Lehman dough formulation, even your current preferment Lehmann dough formulation that you have been using at market. I have never tried lactic acid but I see it frequently in faux sourdough breads sold at my local high-end supermarket with a bakery. Also, member Tractor33 (Joe) used lactic acid with apparent success, as he described at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9537.MSG82633.HTML#MSG82633.

Peter

Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 19, 2010, 09:30:23 PM
Peter,

Itís good to hear that you used a similar formulation with about the same percent of preferment and had success.  :)  I do really like to experiment and see what happens, so maybe something will work out.  I wonít know unless I keep trying, if the cost might be to high.  I also did a lot of experimenting with the preferment Lehmann dough before that worked out okay for me, but I would still like to take my dough and crust to a higher level. 

I also know I will never be like Pete Taylor or Anthony Mangieri or have the kind of business they have.  I am just a small market stand.  I sure am not like Milton Hershey either, but do have some determination.  I am glad I have you and others to help me along the way, in what I might be able to achieve. 

They are interesting thoughts you had on the possibility of using lactic acid in either the basic Lehmann dough or the preferment Lehmann dough.  I had never thought of that before, but remembered Joe and him posting about using lactic acid in his dough and reporting how much better that made the taste of his crust.  I didnít know they used lactic acid in faux sourdough breads.  That would be an interesting experiment to try. 

Thanks for continuing to help to make a better crust.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Essen1 on September 19, 2010, 09:54:48 PM
Mike,

I can go to market on Monday between 8:00 am to 5:00 pm.  I do go to market on Mondays to do my final mix now for the preferment Lehmann dough.  I am allowed at market any day of the week between the hours I mentioned above.  What is my biggest problem is that market temperatures fluctuate all over the place, from each week to the next.  I can have temperatures between 44 degrees to temperature of 99 degrees.  I do start making pizza around 8:30 am and continue making pizza until about 8:00 pm at night.  Right now my preferment Lehmann dough works out okay with all these variable temperature changes and long hours at market, but can see the many problems with trying to use a starter in the dough.

Norma

I see.

Do you want to use the starter in a same-day dough or a, let's say, 24 hr dough?
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 19, 2010, 10:04:07 PM
I see.

Do you want to use the starter in a same-day dough or a, let's say, 24 hr dough?

Mike,

I couldnít use the starter in a same day dough, because starters are too finicky.  I couldnít be sure my starter would be active enough and then make the dough and have it proofed enough to start at 8:30 am.  It could be a 24 hour dough, but how would you suggest to go about that, when my ambient temperatures are so different?

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Essen1 on September 19, 2010, 10:36:28 PM
Mike,

I couldnít use the starter in a same day dough, because starters are too finicky.  I couldnít be sure my starter would be active enough and then make the dough and have it proofed enough to start at 8:30 am.  It could be a 24 hour dough, but how would you suggest to go about that, when my ambient temperatures are so different?

Norma

Norma,

Have you considered splitting the starter, meaning leaving one at the market and one at home, just to see how they handle different temp fluctuations?

I'm not sure but I think I saw in one of your pictures a cooler/warmer similar to a ThermoKool MR-138. These little appliances will keep a starter or dough at a controlled temperature. However, I don't know if they are permitted in a commercial setting.

That would be my best bet. What kind of starter are you using? Is it an Ischia or Camaldoli?

Pic below is a Thermokool MR-138
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 19, 2010, 11:00:39 PM
Mike,

If I can find a formulation to use for a 24 hr. dough with a starter, I could split the starter.  I havenít gotten that far as of this date.  I am using the Ischia starter right now and can see how finicky it is.  What I have at market that could proof the dough is a Hatco Unit.  The temperature of that unit at its lowest is 85 degrees F.  I use that unit to make the poolish for the preferment Lehmann dough.  I would need a rather large unit to be able to proof all my dough.  The other obstacle I could see right now is I wouldnít want to let that unit on overnight.  I do have liability insurance, but if that unit would catch on fire, I would be responsible for what would happen. 

I donít know if a Thermokool MR-138 would be allowed for inspection by the food inspectors.  Each thing I use needs a NSF rating. 

When I get to market in the morning, I need to light my oven, get all my utensils ready, mix water to sanitize utensils and do many other things.  That takes about an hour.  I donít know when I would have time to ball the bulk fermented dough and then have it ready for 8:30 am. This would be needed for a 24 hour dough. Since I am getting older, the amount of time I spend at market Tuesday is enough for me.  Most days I donít get to sit down even one time.  If I am not getting things ready, I am washing dishes, waiting on customers, cleaning things or making pizza.  You would be surprised how many pans and other items get dirty in a days time.  There are also rules that you need to clean out the container that holds sauce and your utensils that you serve the pizza with at different times. 

Thanks for your ideas and if you have anymore, I am willing to listen.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Pete-zza on September 19, 2010, 11:12:55 PM
Norma,

The optimum fermentation temperature for dough to be fermented along the lines advocated by Marco (pizzanapoletana) is between 64.4-68 degrees F (18-20 degrees C). So, your Hatco unit, if it could handle 10-15 pound of dough, would not be suitable, or else your dough would ferment much faster and most likely produce sub-par results. If you had an MR-138 unit, or one similar or comparable to it, and even if it were NSF rated, it also would be unsuitable for 10-15 pounds of dough. However, it could be used for experimental purposes for small batch sizes.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 19, 2010, 11:29:45 PM
Norma,

The optimum fermentation temperature for dough to be fermented along the lines advocated by Marco (pizzanapoletana) is between 64.4-68 degrees F (18-20 degrees C). So, your Hatco unit, if it could handle 10-15 pound of dough, would not be suitable, or else your dough would ferment much faster and most likely produce sub-par results. If you had an MR-138 unit, or one similar or comparable to it, and even if it were NSF rated, it also would be unsuitable for 10-15 pounds of dough. However, it could be used for experimental purposes for small batch sizes.

Peter

Peter,

I can see that there would have to be some special kind of equipment needed to ferment the dough in those temperatures.  I didnít know what the optimal temperature were for fermenting doughs, but had an idea that is was lower than my Hatco Unit. I have read about MR-138 units and donít think I am ready to purchase one for experimental purposes. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Essen1 on September 19, 2010, 11:50:47 PM
Quote
Most days I donít get to sit down even one time.  If I am not getting things ready, I am washing dishes, waiting on customers, cleaning things or making pizza.  You would be surprised how many pans and other items get dirty in a days time.

Oh believe me I do.  ;D

I worked in Bakeries, Restaurants and Hotels and I know how fast things get dirty, supplies need to be restocked and the like.

I mentioned the Thermokool option just as an idea. It can't hold a 10-15 lb dough, I know that. However, it can hold the amount of starter you might use. The rest of the proofing could be done in the way you do on a regular basis.

But just like you, I wouldn't be comfortable having it on unsupervised overnight. Things nowadays are mostly made in China and we know what that quality is like. Isn't there any American-made quality out there anymore without paying an arm and a leg for it?? I digress.

Peter,

I am wondering if Marco referred to a Neapolitan dough or a pizza dough in general? If it's in a general sense, Norma shouldn't have any problems establishing a temp for the dough to ferment given she has the proper equipment. But then again, 10-15 lbs of dough pose a challenge for a small stand at a market.


Norma,

All this aside, I think you're a trooper for wanting to be able to make the best pies possible and provide your customers with great quality. I'm in the Sales & Service field myself, albeit not food, but I know how tough it can be to satisfy some customers.

Keep at it and I'm sure with Peter's help, it'll be possible.  :chef:


P.S.: Come to think of it...that man needs a monument named after him!

Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 20, 2010, 07:46:04 AM
Oh believe me I do.  ;D

I worked in Bakeries, Restaurants and Hotels and I know how fast things get dirty, supplies need to be restocked and the like.

I mentioned the Thermokool option just as an idea. It can't hold a 10-15 lb dough, I know that. However, it can hold the amount of starter you might use. The rest of the proofing could be done in the way you do on a regular basis.

But just like you, I wouldn't be comfortable having it on unsupervised overnight. Things nowadays are mostly made in China and we know what that quality is like. Isn't there any American-made quality out there anymore without paying an arm and a leg for it?? I digress.

Peter,

I am wondering if Marco referred to a Neapolitan dough or a pizza dough in general? If it's in a general sense, Norma shouldn't have any problems establishing a temp for the dough to ferment given she has the proper equipment. But then again, 10-15 lbs of dough pose a challenge for a small stand at a market.


Norma,

All this aside, I think you're a trooper for wanting to be able to make the best pies possible and provide your customers with great quality. I'm in the Sales & Service field myself, albeit not food, but I know how tough it can be to satisfy some customers.

Keep at it and I'm sure with Peter's help, it'll be possible.  :chef:


P.S.: Come to think of it...that man needs a monument named after him!



Mike,

This is one post of Marco about making dough that is left to cold ferment.  He says in that post that proper cold fermentation is quite complicated to do and more difficult to obtain good results.  He also says that if you would like to make a good dough in the fridge, than you need to develop a dough with a flour of different enzymatic activity and use different salts quantities and a different hydration.  He goes on to state that the dough would need to be in the fridge for 3 or 4 days for a cold ferment.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3057.msg25932.html#msg25932

Thanks for saying I am a trooper, for wanting to make the best possible pies at market.  My customers really arenít that hard to satisfy and like myself a little while ago, most donít know what a good pizza tastes like.  I do have some customers that appreciate a good crust.  I make mulitiple batches of 15 or 10 lbs, all depending on the weather and the time of year.  I have a friend that has a brother, that operates an Irish Pub in Lancaster.  He been after me to open a pizza business in Lancaster, because he said there isnít any good pizzas there.  I told him I am too old to open a pizza business.  He remembers when they did have good pizzas in Lancaster.  Recently he said also his brother might be thinking of opening a pizza business and asked if I could help him develop a good pizza.  I said I would help where I could, but I am not an expert on developing a good pizza.  :-D I have enough problems with trying new ideas. Who knows if they will go though with that or not.  My friend owns a flower business and helps his brother at the Irish Pub.

I can see with you being in the sales field, that customers can be hard to deal with. 

You are also right that Peter needs a monument named after him.  All the help he has given so freely has helped so many people.  We should start another appreciation thread.

Thanks,

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Matthew on September 20, 2010, 08:11:54 AM
Norma,
I have an MR-148; don't waste your money.  The capacity is way to small & the temperature is always off by about 5-7 degrees.  I rely on a digital thermometer & then adjust the temperature on the Mr-148 according to that.  The biggest container that will fit in there is a 4QT round Cambro.  The diameter must be less than 9" in order for the door to close.  What I use for cool fermentation is a wine fridge.  I disconnected the white wine peltier & run the whole unit in the red wine zone which holds extremely stable temperatures.  The temperature range in this zone is 60-64 degrees.  For proofing focaccia & breads in warmer temperatures I use another proofing chamber that I made using 2 large storage containers using an aquarium heater.  I have managed to arrange it so that I can have 2 focaccia pans in there at the same time.  I use a damp cloth inside to increase the humidity if need be.

As far as using a starter goes; there are starters out there that peak in 3.5-5hours.  I know of an Alaskan one & I'm sure that there is many more out there.  Peter made a good point; you're not catering to an elite crowd so I'm sure your current pizza is better than anything they've tried.  Personally, I would forgo the starter all together for the market unless you're into making yourself nuts.

Matt
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 20, 2010, 08:33:02 AM
Matt,

Thanks for telling me about your MR-148.  I can understand by using your wine fridge, you can get the right fermenting temperatures. I donít even know about different types of wines or never even tasted a good wine. Just like pizza making, even at my age, I still have a lot to learn. I did see your proofing chamber in another thread and have seen the amazing breads and focaccia you make.

I know I am not catering to an elite crowd.  Some customers are tourists, customers that regularly come to market, and some are just people that happen to venture into my area at market. 

I have always been adventurous in anything I do.  I am not trying to make myself nuts, but can see your point in how far I might need to go in understanding how a starter for the dough at market might work out.  You have learned a lot about using starters and you have achieved success with using starters.  My hat is off to you.   :chef:  You have come a long way in a short while.

Thanks for you help and knowledge,

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Matthew on September 20, 2010, 08:41:22 AM
Norma,
I still have alot to learn & have I have been doing alot of experimenting behind closed doors lately.  Although it's still extremely early I have something planned & will post something when the time is right. ;)

Matt
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 20, 2010, 09:24:32 AM
Norma,
I still have alot to learn & have I have been doing alot of experimenting behind closed doors lately.  Although it's still extremely early I have something planned & will post something when the time is right. ;)

Matt

Matt,

I guess we will never get finished learning.  That is what makes pizza making so mysterious and fun at the same time.  Great to hear you still are experimenting behind closed doors.  8)  I will be looking forward to the time you post and be able to learn from your posts.  ;D  You are also amazing in all you try.  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 20, 2010, 10:14:19 AM
I used the ďpoppy seedĒ trick that Peter explained to me for seeing how much a dough has risen at Reply 14 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8341.msg72360.html#msg72360

and referenced me to at

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6914.msg59335.html#msg59335

Since the measurements on this dough ball arenít 1 1/4" as of this morning, it looks like this dough ball will still be good until tomorrow.  At a bit more than 1 1/4" the dough should have doubled by half.  I am going to use this ďpoppy seedĒ trick to monitor all my dough balls for experimental purposes, if I remember to place them on the dough balls.  :-D This dough ball seems to be rising slower than my last attempt, but then I didnít use the ďpoppy seedĒ trick. 

Pictures below of how dough ball looks this morning.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Pete-zza on September 20, 2010, 11:52:23 AM
Peter,

I am wondering if Marco referred to a Neapolitan dough or a pizza dough in general? If it's in a general sense, Norma shouldn't have any problems establishing a temp for the dough to ferment given she has the proper equipment. But then again, 10-15 lbs of dough pose a challenge for a small stand at a market.

Mike,

Marco discussed various types of doughs for various purposes but when he spoke of using a Crisceto of up to 5% of the formula water, he was referring to the Neapolitan pizza dough. When I made Neapolitan style doughs, I basically followed the 5% rule. However, for other types of doughs using a starter culture, I used preferment quantities that were much higher than 5%--more like 15% (of the flour weight) or more depending on the room temperature. That number came to me from work that member bakerboy (Barry), a professional baker, conducted and discussed on the forum.

As long as one is at the mercy of room temperatures that cannot be controlled, there will be problems trying to make a dough that can be reliably and consistently reproduced and be usable exactly at the required times--when customers line up for pizza slices. The pizzaioli in Naples learn through years of hands-on experience how to contend with seasonal changes and how to make adjustments to the amounts of Crisceto or commercial yeast to use, the hydration value to use, the water temperature to use, and the amount of salt to use and, in so doing, have the doughs ready when customers show up. But even then, they have had to devise systems that allow them to successfully contend with temperature variations. For example, as Marco noted at Reply 61 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.msg12548/topicseen.html#msg12548, Da Michele Antica Costa in Naples use cellars in the summer to get cooler fermentation temperatures. So, even if Norma decided to take a sabbatical from her work at market and go to Naples to learn from the masters there, what she might learn may still not help her contend with temperatures at market that can reach as high as 99 degrees F in the summer and 44 degrees F in the winter. I might also add that Norma might also come up short on guidance on how to use natural leavening systems in a varying room temperature environment since, to the best of my knowledge, there may not be any well-known pizzeria in Naples that is using such a natural leavening system anymore. I believe that they are pretty much all using commercial yeast.

I still believe that Norma's best chance at using her Ischia culture at market is the three-stage method I mentioned earlier. Even then, the room temperature bulk fermentation part will be subject to seasonal variations that will require Norma to act like a Neapolitan pizzaiolo and make the necessary compensatory adjustments.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 20, 2010, 12:40:19 PM
Peter,

I saw after doing some searching that you tried a dough with a preferment amount of 20% at reply 180 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.msg13971.html#msg13971

Although that dough was not made with KASL, I find it interesting that you used a salt value similar to what I am now using for this current formulation.  You used a  higher oil factor, too.  I can understand why you used dairy whey to help brown you crust, because you were baking in a home oven, with Caputo. You said in that post that your rim was not bready.  Your dough wasnít cold fermented, but I find what you posted interesting.

I will be interested in seeing what happens with my current experiment tomorrow. If this dough ball doesnít change too much until tomorrow, I will decide how long I have to let it warm-up.  There are so many posts on this forum and it is hard to know what to try, but at least members have posted on what they have tried and what works.

I also believe that a three-stage method might possibly work out, if I can get all this figured out.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Essen1 on September 20, 2010, 01:30:26 PM
Norma,
I have an MR-148; don't waste your money.  The capacity is way to small & the temperature is always off by about 5-7 degrees.  I rely on a digital thermometer & then adjust the temperature on the Mr-148 according to that.  The biggest container that will fit in there is a 4QT round Cambro.  The diameter must be less than 9" in order for the door to close.  What I use for cool fermentation is a wine fridge.  I disconnected the white wine peltier & run the whole unit in the red wine zone which holds extremely stable temperatures.  The temperature range in this zone is 60-64 degrees.  For proofing focaccia & breads in warmer temperatures I use another proofing chamber that I made using 2 large storage containers using an aquarium heater.  I have managed to arrange it so that I can have 2 focaccia pans in there at the same time.  I use a damp cloth inside to increase the humidity if need be.

As far as using a starter goes; there are starters out there that peak in 3.5-5hours.  I know of an Alaskan one & I'm sure that there is many more out there.  Peter made a good point; you're not catering to an elite crowd so I'm sure your current pizza is better than anything they've tried.  Personally, I would forgo the starter all together for the market unless you're into making yourself nuts.

Matt

Norma,

Matt has a few good points.

And after everything you said and how difficult it is to work with a starter at your market stand, I would have to second what Matt said and might consider canning the idea but that is of course up to you.

My suggestion in regards to the MR-138 was simply an example to show how one could go about it but in your case the capacity isn't sufficient. And like Matt said, I might look into those starters that have a shorter activation time or peak times.

Quote
I still believe that Norma's best chance at using her Ischia culture at market is the three-stage method I mentioned earlier. Even then, the room temperature bulk fermentation part will be subject to seasonal variations that will require Norma to act like a Neapolitan pizzaiolo and make the necessary compensatory adjustments.

Peter,

Let's just hope that Norma, after her project concludes, will still have all her hair and her sanity because there were times where I came close to pulling out all my hair regarding starters  :-D

But like Norma said, if there are such drastic temp differences it does pose a problem indeed, even if she would compensate for it one day but then have to do it again the next. I'm wondering how the temps are once we reach fall and winter? The colder temps might make it easier for her to conduct the experiment at her market facility.



Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 20, 2010, 04:45:43 PM
Mike,

I do agree that Matt has a few good points.  I donít know that much about starters as of this date, but I am willing to learn and do experiments.  I am not ready to can the idea at the present time. 

I know your ideas about the MR-138 were a suggestion and I appreciated your suggestion.  :)  I might have to look into the other starters or go a different route.  I wonít know that until I have tried different experiments. 

I also hope I have all my hair and sanity when I am finished with these experiments.  I can believe there were times you almost came close to pulling out your hair regarding starters.  :-D I am only beginning to understand them. 

The temperatures at market are coming down more now in our area.  Today it was only 72 degrees F at market.  Winter will be a different story. 

I read this article a little while ago and thought just how hard Anthony Mangieri must have worked to help this man to learn to make his pizza. Of course Anthony Mangieri was a paid consultant to help make Undiciís pizza. I read in another article about how they tried out recipes for dough over 100 times, before they got it right.

http://www.brianpaschnj.com/20091124-best-pizza-new-jersey/

I donít know where the other article is now, but it said how many times Anthony Mangieri and
Undiciís owner, Victor Rallo tried to make a special pizza for Undiciís.
I sure am not Anthony Mangieri or anything close to him, but will try to see what I can achieve.
I am one determined bugger too, and wonít give up very easily.  I can understand this approach with the Ischia starter might now be the best way to go about making a better crust flavor and it might not work out.  I did have many problems with the preferment Lehmann dough when I first started out with it, but learned how to control the issues with that dough.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Essen1 on September 20, 2010, 04:55:11 PM
Mike,

I do agree that Matt has a few good points.  I donít know that much about starters as of this date, but I am willing to learn and do experiments.  I am not ready to can the idea at the present time. 

I know your ideas about the MR-138 were a suggestion and I appreciated your suggestion.  :)  I might have to look into the other starters or go a different route.  I wonít know that until I have tried different experiments. 

I also hope I have all my hair and sanity when I am finished with these experiments.  I can believe there were times you almost came close to pulling out your hair regarding starters.  :-D I am only beginning to understand them. 

The temperatures at market are coming down more now in our area.  Today it was only 72 degrees F at market.  Winter will be a different story. 

I read this article a little while ago and thought just how hard Anthony Mangieri must have worked to help this man to learn to make his pizza. Of course Anthony Mangieri was a paid consultant to help make Undiciís pizza. I read in another article about how they tried out recipes for dough over 100 times, before they got it right.

http://www.brianpaschnj.com/20091124-best-pizza-new-jersey/

I donít know where the other article is now, but it said how many times Anthony Mangieri and
Undiciís owner, Victor Rallo tried to make a special pizza for Undiciís.
I sure am not Anthony Mangieri or anything close to him, but will try to see what I can achieve.
I am one determined bugger too, and wonít give up very easily.  I can understand this approach with the Ischia starter might now be the best way to go about making a better crust flavor and it might not work out.  I did have many problems with the preferment Lehmann dough when I first started out with it, but learned how to control the issues with that dough.

Norma

Norma,

You certainly are one motivated and determined gal, I gotta say!  ;D

I will follow your endeavor and am looking forward to your final results and findings.

And please, whatever you do, don't reach up...leave that hair alone, you hear me??  :chef:
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 20, 2010, 05:02:05 PM
Norma,

You certainly are one motivated and determined gal, I gotta say!  ;D

I will follow your endeavor and am looking forward to your final results and findings.

And please, whatever you do, don't reach up...leave that hair alone, you hear me??  :chef:

Mike,

Thanks for saying you will follow this endeavor and look forward to the results and findings.  At least I won't try to pull my hair out.   :-D  I would let this project alone before I would do that.  ::)

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 20, 2010, 07:17:29 PM
Mike,

These are the articles I was looking for.  I forgot how many pizzas they made before they had success, but in these articles it said it took two weeks and 500 pizzas before they succeeded.

http://rumson.undicirestaurant.com/about/the-best-pizza-nj-rumson-undici-restaurant/

http://www.pizzanj.net/tag/pizza-reviews/

http://www.prlog.org/10470159-how-new-jerseys-best-pizza-napoletana-came-to-be.html

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Essen1 on September 20, 2010, 07:42:22 PM
Norma,

Great articles! Thanks for posting them.

Quote
According to Rallo, it was no small change fine tuning the formula for his new pizza.  ďWe started on a Monday and it was almost a disaster, but we quickly learned from our mistakes and were back at it on Tuesday.  After about two weeks and 500 pizzas, we were ready to make the change and were confident everyone would appreciate our new authentic Pizza Napoletana.Ē

This is always amazing to me...how such few ingredients can create a big challenge in order to find the right balance. Goes to show that even AM had his work cut out for him.

By the way, that's another thing...when I checked the reviews on Yelp earlier on UPN, people are not getting it, it looks like. The guy's just opened for less than a week and those "reviewers" already ripping on him.

One thing I noticed, though, was that the pies made at Undici do look different than the pies from UPN. Fascinating.
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 20, 2010, 09:03:13 PM
Norma,

Great articles! Thanks for posting them.

This is always amazing to me...how such few ingredients can create a big challenge in order to find the right balance. Goes to show that even AM had his work cut out for him.

By the way, that's another thing...when I checked the reviews on Yelp earlier on UPN, people are not getting it, it looks like. The guy's just opened for less than a week and those "reviewers" already ripping on him.

One thing I noticed, though, was that the pies made at Undici do look different than the pies from UPN. Fascinating.

Mike,

Your welcome about the articles.  It is also amazing to me that pizza can have so many variables and can turn out so different.  I guess Anthony Mangieri did have to work very hard to come up with a good dough for Undiciís pizza.  I donít know if any members have ever eaten at Undiciís to compare their pizza with Anthonyís, but would be interested in knowing how much different the pizzas are.  I donít think he would give his formula to any other person. It is fascinating that Undiciís pizza and UPNís pizza look different.  Anthony does know how to make pizza and has studied for awhile.  I am sure he could make many kinds of pizza.  Did you know Anthony did have a pizza business in NJ before opening UPN in NY?

I donít believe people should be ripping him already.  Maybe they havenít even tried his style of pizza before. 

I just wanted to show these articles so you could understand that even for a professional like Anthony Mangieri, he did have problems coming up with a good formula for Undiciís.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Essen1 on September 20, 2010, 10:14:37 PM
Quote
Did you know Anthony did have a pizza business in NJ before opening UPN in NY?

Yes. He started out as a bread baker before switching over to pizza and had his first pizza place in Jersey but I forgot where.

I don't think, either, he'd give out his formula but then again his formula might not even work in Undici's oven since, I could imagine, one WFO differs from the next. So the recipe that works for AM might not work for anyone else.

But if I'd hit a home run with my formula I don't think I'd give it out, either.  ;D  Have a long way to go still.
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 20, 2010, 10:57:00 PM
Mike,

If you are interested at the end of this article it tells that Anthony opened his bakery in 1993, named Sant Arsenio.  What he really wanted to open was a pizzeria, but he couldnít scrape together the money for tables or a public restroom.  He opened his pizzeria, the first iteration of Una Pizza Napoletana in Point Pleasant, near the ocean.  Goes to show he even was one determined man then.

http://nymag.com/restaurants/cheapeats/2009/57897/

You are doing great with all the ideas you have for making pizza.   ;D

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Essen1 on September 21, 2010, 12:33:17 AM
Mike,

If you are interested at the end of this article it tells that Anthony opened his bakery in 1993, named Sant Arsenio.  What he really wanted to open was a pizzeria, but he couldnít scrape together the money for tables or a public restroom.  He opened his pizzeria, the first iteration of Una Pizza Napoletana in Point Pleasant, near the ocean.  Goes to show he even was one determined man then.

http://nymag.com/restaurants/cheapeats/2009/57897/

You are doing great with all the ideas you have for making pizza.   ;D

Norma

Thanks, Norma.

It's time to fire up my baby, the LBE, again and get back to those high-temp pizzas.

I also think I have reached a point with my NY-style project where I can't go much much further due to the lack of options regarding ovens.

It's like hitting a wall. My home oven is crapping out it seems, well at least the lower heating element. I think it needs replacing because the temps are not as good as they were in the beginning. Or maybe it's the stone but I doubt it.

AM is a determined man. Proves that the American dream still has a delicate sign of life, given how hard it is these days to open anything new, business-wise. At least over here...
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 21, 2010, 09:53:02 PM
Steve and I made the pizza today with the Ischia starter.  The dough ball was left to warm-up for a little over 1 Ĺ hrs.  The first picture was the underneath of the dough ball when I removed it from the deli case and the second picture of the underneath is right before I opened the dough ball.   This dough was very easy to open.  It almost fell open, it was that easy.  After the dough ball was opened and the sauce was applied, we got busy and couldnít put the cheese on this pie right away and then put it into the oven.  When we finally got to put the cheese on we didnít check to see if the dough might be sticking to the peel.  Of course this pie had to stick on one part of the peel and when it was put into the oven it didnít want to come off the peel.  That is why the pizza is shaped like it is.  All day long no other pies stuck to the peel.  Wouldnít you know it had to be this pie that stuck to the peel.  :-D

The pizza turned out well, expect the shape wasnít perfect.

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 21, 2010, 09:54:16 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 21, 2010, 09:55:33 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 21, 2010, 09:57:18 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 21, 2010, 09:58:13 PM
end of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Pete-zza on September 21, 2010, 10:24:14 PM
Norma,

The pizza certainly looks tasty. Can you describe the characteristics of the crust and crumb in detail and also compare this pizza against the previous ones that you described in this thread and also your basic preferment Lehmann pizza?

Did you get any sense that the dough might have overfermented? Typical signs would be a wetness or slackness of the dough with a "clammy" feel and a weakened gluten structure.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 21, 2010, 10:47:23 PM
Norma,

The pizza certainly looks tasty. Can you describe the characteristics of the crust and crumb in detail and also compare this pizza against the previous ones that you described in this thread and also your basic preferment Lehmann pizza?

Did you get any sense that the dough might have overfermented? Typical signs would be a wetness or slackness of the dough with a "clammy" feel and a weakened gluten structure.

Peter

Peter,

The characteristics of the crust were a lot different than the preferment Lehmann dough.  The past pizzas I made with the Ischia starter were drier.  This crust was crisp on the bottom and moist inside.  The only problems I saw with this crust is that it seemed to have a gum line.  It didnít bother me when eating it, but wondered why it would have a gum line, when the rest of the pizza seemed baked okay.  There wasnít any sourdough taste in this crust and the salt tasted right for my taste.  Steve reheated a slice after it had cooled down and that crust did crisp up right away.  There was a different taste in this crust, but I just canít say what it was.  I certainly did enjoy this different crust though.  So far, this has been my best attempt, in my opinion.  The only other thing that bothered me about this pizza was it didnít brown as much as I wanted.  It did have good oven spring though. 

I didnít see any signs that this dough was overfermented.  The dough felt so soft and if we could have finished dressing the pie right away, I donít think it would have stuck to the peel in one place.  As I posted before, this dough opened so easily and did have nice bubbles in the skin.

Do you have any ideas of what I should try in my next attempt or do you think I should try this same formula again?

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Pete-zza on September 21, 2010, 11:45:25 PM
Norma,

I think I have some possible explanations for your results. However, to give you a complete response, can you tell me how you came to the conclusion that you experienced a gum line, including what test you conducted to determine that you had a gum line as opposed to just a plain old gummy crust? And was the gummy characteristic throughout the entire pizza or just the center?

Peter
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 22, 2010, 06:22:24 AM
Norma,

I think I have some possible explanations for your results. However, to give you a complete response, can you tell me how you came to the conclusion that you experienced a gum line, including what test you conducted to determine that you had a gum line as opposed to just a plain old gummy crust? And was the gummy characteristic throughout the entire pizza or just the center?

Peter


Peter,

When I taste or bake a new kind of pizza, that I never made before, I usually tear it apart after eating some to see what it looks like.  The gum line I thought was in this pizza, was just under the sauce and cheese.  The rim didnít have any gummy or gum line to my knowledge.  I didnít ever really experience a gum line (or what I thought was a gum line in any other pizza I had baked before) Since this pizza was moister in the rim, then other pizzas I had tried, I didnít know if that was the reason I thought there was a gum line or not.  What confused me was the bottom and top of the pizza seemed baked enough.  Another thing I had wondered was, since this skin with just the sauce was left longer than normal to sit on the peel,  (because we had to wait on customers) it this could have also contributed to what I thought was a gum line.  I should have taken a picture of when I pulled some of the cheese of one slice to be able to show you what I thought was a gum line.  I didnít know of other tests to do, to see if I really had a gum line.  Since this pizza was baked in my regular deck oven at normal baking times, I thought that usually only gum lines were produced from high bake temperatures.  I still have a lot to learn about pizzas and know there can be some moistness under the sauce when making a pizza, but this pizza was different than other ones I had tried before.

I donít know if you can magnify DCO4883, DCO04884 and DCO35889, but on my computer, I can see what I thought was a gum line.

There were a few pictures missing from the beginning when I took this dough ball out of the deli case to warm-up.  Those pictures were of a bug Steve found when he was outside for a minute.  He knows I am interested in nature and bugs and found me a different bug.  Of course then we had to examine the bug for a little while and of course I had to take a few pictures.    The one picture didnít turn out but this is the bug we had to examine.  This isnít related to this pizza, but I just thought I would have to post it, because it was so different and also if I would have kept up with my other regular pizzas, I might not had the troubles with this pizza sticking to the peel.  I spend too much time examining things.  :-D

Picture of bug

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Pete-zza on September 22, 2010, 10:43:03 AM
Norma,

The reason why I asked you about the gum line matter and the method you used to diagnose it was because I couldn't recall that you had ever had a gum line problem before with any of your pizzas. Also, there are many possible causes of a gum line, which is more of a surface phenomenon, and it is often confused with a gumminess or partially-unbaked dough problem that can permeate a good part of the thickness of a finished crust. Based on the gum line tests that Tom Lehmann recommends, for example, at the PMQ Think Tank at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7000&p=46894&hilit=#p46894, it appears that you may have properly conducted a gum line test and identified a gum line condition.

Initially, I thought that if you had an actual gum line problem it was because of either one of two possible causes. The first was that the gluten structure may have been weakened by the action of enzymes (protease) to the point where the dough skin was unable to support the sauce and cheese and that resulted in a gum line. The second possible cause was that, in opening up the dough ball, which you indicated you accomplished with ease, perhaps you ended up with an overly thin center that ended up causing a gum line. Both of these conditions are quite common causes of gum lines. It is still possible that one or both were implicated in your gum line condition but when you mentioned that you pre-sauced the dough skin and let it sit unattended for a while, that led me to believe that that was probably the cause of the gum line you experienced. Usually when a pizza operator finds it necessary to pre-sauce skins for any reason, it is recommended that the skins be brushed with oil before applying the sauce. That creates a barrier between the skin and the sauce and prevents or limits the absorption of the water in the sauce by the skin. Otherwise, a gum line becomes very likely. I think that may have happened inadvertently in your case. The only way to determine if pre-saucing and leaving the dough skin unattended was the cause in your case is to repeat the experiment in the normal manner to see if the gum line condition resurfaces.

Apart from the above, I think that your dough may have been fermented too long even though you did not have any problems handling the dough. If I am correct on this, that would also help explain the reduced crust coloration. The proximate cause of the reduced coloration may have been an excess of acid production (a low pH). My recollection is that Tom Lehmann has said that an excessive amount of acid can make it difficult for a pizza crust to brown during baking, requiring a longer bake in order to develop more color. I believe he also said that this condition was common with sourdoughs. I think I should be able to find where he discussed this matter in one of his PMQTT posts so that you can read his comments yourself.

As far as your next possible experiment is concerned, I think I would use the same dough formulation but reduce the bulk rise time at room temperature and extend the cold fermentation part of the overall fermentation. By doing this, hopefully you will slow down the overall fermentation process and reduce the acid production and possibly also the action of the enzymes that can weaken the gluten structure. There are other possible changes that one might use, for example, adding sugar to the dough or using diastatic malt or adjusting the hydration of your preferment, but I do not advocate making multiple changes at one time, even though there may be a great temptation to do so in order to leapfrog the process to save time. I would rather take one step at a time, see what eventuates, and then assess the situation anew once the results are in. I think you also learn more by this approach and avoid confusing yourself with competing effects that can become very hard, and sometimes impossible, to disentangle, given the complexity of biochemical and physical aspects of naturally leavened doughs.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 22, 2010, 11:07:13 AM
Peter,

You are right that I never noticed a problem with a gum line before in my pizzas.  Thanks for explaining what might have caused the gum line. Thatís interesting that you think my dough might have been fermented too long and that could help to explain why there wasnít enough coloration in the crust. Since Tom Lehmann said that condition is more common with sourdoughs, I wonder if I use my pH meter in my next attempt if this might be able to help me understand if the dough pH is okay.  I will try less time in a bulk ferment for my next attempt and see what happens with that dough, before I try anything else.  I already know that each variable can bring changes.  I can understand I will need to see what happens with each change if I am ever going to be able to understand what can produce good results

I also searched this morning about gum lines and read this post from Tom Lehmann.  http://www.pmq.com/mag/2003september_october/tom_lehmann.php  Since I didnít really know if I had a gum line or not, I wasnít sure of what might have caused one, but could understand that it might have been the sauce that might have been too thin or sitting to long on the pie, that might have caused what I thought looked like a gum line, if the sauce had migrated into the dough.  I did do a search at PMQ think tank this morning also.

I fed my Ischia starter again this morning and I am going to make two dough balls today with the same formula I used in my last attempt.  I am going to make one dough with Caputo Blue Bag and one dough with KASL.  I might let this dough room ferment for a little longer, since I would like to try this dough on Friday. At least it would give me more understanding of how the Ischia starter works in a dough. Steve invited me to another bake in his WFO on Friday.  As of right now, I am not sure if I will be able to make that bake because I start job training for my new part-time job this afternoon and donít know what my training schedule will be.  After I finish the training then I will know more what my regular hours are.  It would be interesting to see how these two doughs balls would bake in Steveís WFO. I know this formulation wonít bake the same way in Steveís WFO, but I would be curious to see how much difference there is in a WFO. If I have to work on Friday, then I will just freeze the dough balls and give them to Steve to try. 

Early this morning I had to take my furry friend for his operation on his two hind legs cruciate ligaments.  I am not sure when he is going to get out of the hospital either and know I will have to learn to do therapy on him and give him shots in his hind legs, so this might also determine if I can go to Steveís home or not, to bake these doughs.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Pete-zza on September 22, 2010, 11:20:29 AM
Norma,

After I last posted, I researched the archives at PMQTT and found the Tom Lehmann post on acid production, in a Q&A session with D-Laurios starting at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=9214&p=64013&hilit=#p64011. You might also want to read the entire thread since it contains other useful information.

I also did a quick search of the PMQTT archives using the keywords "gum line" (two words, without the quotes) and there is a lot of information on that subject, as you may also have discovered. Sometime when I am in a studying frame of mind I may read the relevant posts, if only to expand and solidify my knowledge and understanding of gum lines.

I was aware of the fact that an overly thin sauce can also cause a gum line but since I assumed that you were using your regular sauce I did not think to raise that possibility with you. But it is good to know anyway.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 22, 2010, 11:57:06 AM
Peter,

Since Tom Lehmann says a lower pH makes it more difficult to brown the crust in the baking process, what is the optimum pH of a sourdough crust supposed to be?  Maybe with using my pH meter I will be able to see from week to week what my experimental doughs pHís are.  I see Tom Lehmann also posted that a shorter fermentation time will also help with crust color as you posted before.  Does that apply to bulk ferment or just shorter fermentation times?  The last attempt of the crust yesterday as far as the crispness in the crust, was just about right in my opinion.  I still donít know if the sauce sitting on the skin longer did contribute to the gum line, but I was in a hurry to add more water to my sauce shortly before we baked that pizza.  The amount of thinness of my sauce up to a certain point on my regular pizzas doesnít seem to make any difference, but it might make a difference on a sourdough crust.  I also think that pizza might have stuck to the peel, because the sauce might have been too thin.  I canít be sure though, until I do more experiments.

I also did the search on gum line at PMQ think tank.  If you find any other posts, where I can see information about gum lines let me know.  Right now, after thinking about it, I think my gum line might have come from the sauce.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Pete-zza on September 22, 2010, 01:20:22 PM
Norma,

It is very difficult to say what the optimum pH is for a naturally-leavened dough. The pH value is dictated to a great extent by the fermentation temperature. If you were to use only a room temperature fermentation, it might be possible with your particular leavening system to state a range of pH values over time. But, if, as in your case, you use a combination of room temperature fermentation, cold fermentation and a temper at room temperature, the pH values over the same time period will most likely be higher, because of the introduction of the cold fermentation period. Also, where the dough will be from the standpoint of pH over the entire fermentation period will depend on the condition of the preferment (poolish in your case) at the outset. If it too acidic to begin with, then that will lower the final pH at the time of baking. That is why Prof. Calvel says in his book The Taste of Bread to be sure to refresh the starter/preferment culture before using it (which, of course, you have been doing). If you have a pH meter, you might want to use it in your experiments and note the relevant values, particularly at the time the experimental doughs are to be used to make pizzas. If I had to venture a guess, a pH value of around 5 might be indicated at the time of baking. The range of pH values will, of course, be quite wide over the entire fermentation period. Since you did not experience any problems with oven spring from what you said, that would suggest that your dough pH perhaps was not out of line. It may have been more a lack of residual sugars to contribute adequately to crust coloration.

For background purposes, you might also want to read Reply 5 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,853.msg7771/topicseen.html#msg7771, including the link to the theartisan.net website at http://www.theartisan.net/The_Artisan_Yeast_Treatise_Section_Two.htm. The portion of the theartisan.net article that you want to read is the section entitled "Acidification". That section recites a fair amount of material from Prof. Calvel's book The Taste of Bread. You will also note that the Acidification section talks about using malt extract (I believe that diastatic malt is intended) to reestablish the proper sugar balance. In his book, Prof. Calvel also suggests using sugar at 0.3-0.5% to restore that balance. As I noted earlier, I would like to see if you really need diastatic malt or sugar before adding them to your dough to get more residual sugars.

Another post where I discussed some of the above matters is Reply 13 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8011.msg69043/topicseen.html#msg69043.

When Tom Lehmann talks about sugar helping with crust color, I believe that he is thinking of a shortened fermentation period (most likely a cold fermentation period) during which sugars in the dough, both added and natural, have not been completely exhausted. As such, they would be available to contribute to crust coloration. This position would be consistent with Tom's discussion at the PMQTT at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4669&hilit=#p26890.

Peter

Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 22, 2010, 09:04:20 PM
Peter,

That is interesting to know that the pH over the entire fermentation period will depend on the condition of the preferment.  I will use my pH meter to see what the pH values are before I made the pizzas. The pH meter is a Cole Palmer meter and is decent to measure pH. That meter might be able to tell me something. 

I appreciate you referencing the links.  I never thought about sourdough starters being loaded with more acids even if they donít seem to acidic.

In the second article you referenced it said that a below pH coincides with a lack of residual sugars, which translates to a deficiency in oven-spring.and coloration.  It still makes me wonder why there was oven-spring without coloration, but I will read over this article more to try and understand all what goes into acidification.  I also see if there isnít enough residual sugar a good remedy would be to use malt extract, to reestablish the proper sugar balance.  I also would like to see first what more experiments produce, before I would add malt extract.

It makes me wonder if I would measure the pH of the starter before putting it into the dough, if that could help to know when the starter is at the right acidic level. 

Understanding all of this with using a starter is going to be challenge.

I did make my two doughs today.  One with Caputo and one with KASL.  I left them bulk ferment for 3 hours.  That might not help me understand what a starter will do in my deck oven, but might help me, by watching how that dough ferments.  I donít have to work on Friday, except for going to market to make my poolish, so if it doesnít rain, hopefully I will get to Steveís home to be able to try out the two dough balls in his WFO.  I will try to post pictures of those two dough balls tomorrow, after they have cold fermented for one day. 

I will make another dough ball on Friday.  Do you have any idea of how long I should try to room temperature ferment this next attempt before balling and cold fermenting?

Thanks for your help,

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Pete-zza on September 22, 2010, 09:53:51 PM
Norma,

I don't think that it is necessary to fully understand the biochemistry of the natural Ischia poolish and dough. Getting the basics down--that is, the basic fermentation protocol--will be more important from a practical standpoint. I like to understand how and why things happen but that is so I can come up with possible solutions to problems that might arise.

I think it is possible for the pH to be in order and yet not get the desired degree of crust coloration. If the pH is too low, as can happen with a long room temperature fermentation, its relationship to the residual sugar can result in oven spring problems. However, after I posted last, I recalled that the dough skin you used to make the last pizza had sat on the peel for a while. During that time, the skin may have proofed and gained volume and height that might have helped with the oven spring. So, I suppose, it could have been possible that without that rise, the oven spring might have been compromised. Hopefully we will learn more with your next effort using the same dough formulation.

If only to satisfy my curiosity, I would be interested to see what values of pH you note with both the Ischia preferment and the dough at different stages, and especially at the point where the pizzas are to be made with the dough. Most doughs start at a pH of almost 6 and, depending on the fermentation protocol and temperature and other factors, can drop to below 5.

You are correct about the large number of organic acids that are formed during the fermentation of the dough. However, it is important to keep in mind that most of those acids are present in very small quantities. Acetic acid is the most dominant organic acid. The bacteria (lactobacillus) also perform to provide lactic acid. A good article on lactic acid fermentation in sourdough, if you can slog through it and come out alive, is at http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/10375/lactic-acid-fermentation-sourdough.

On the matter of the duration of the bulk fermentation of the dough you plan to make on Friday, can you remind me of how long your last bulk fermentation was?

Peter
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 22, 2010, 10:43:33 PM
Peter,

Hopefully I will learn more in my next attempt.  The dough didnít sit on the peel that long.  It was only about 5 minutes.  When I opened the dough it did have small bubbles all though the skin.

I have my pH meter at market, so maybe I can bring it home to make my dough Friday and be able to measure the pH of the Ischia preferment before I mix it into the other ingredients.  If I can keep all the numbers of how acidic the Ischia starter is before I put it into the rest of the ingredients, maybe it might tell us something. I will also try to take each pH level before I make a pizza.  I will take note of what you posted about most doughs start out with a pH of 6.

I will look read over the lactic acid fermentation in sourdough in the next few days.  Right now my mind is tried from trying to learn all the new things on my part-time job. I need my mind fresh to even be able to read all what is posted about lactic acid fermentation.  :-D  I am always interested is learning something new about sourdoughs.  Thanks for that link.

In my last attempt I let that dough bulk ferment for 5 hours.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 23, 2010, 07:55:53 AM

These are pictures of the two dough balls that I made yesterday.  They havenít been cold fermented for 24 hrs.  What I found interesting when I made these two dough balls with the exact same formula yesterday was the Caputo dough seemed more sticky.  I guess that is because of the lower protein content of the Caputo flour.  The poppy seeds havenít move since yesterday.  I am going to go to market this morning and get my pH meter to measure what the pH is on the doughs.  I mixed both of these doughs in the Kitchen Aid mixer.  The Ischia starter was put into the water, then put into the mixer, before the flour (mixed with salt) then mixed on speed 1, before adding the oil last.  Another thing that has me puzzled about the Caputo dough is when I balled it yesterday it seemed so smooth.  Now it looks rougher than the KASL dough.

First two pictures are of Caputo dough and second two pictures are of the dough that was made with KASL.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Pete-zza on September 23, 2010, 08:46:31 AM
In my last attempt I let that dough bulk ferment for 5 hours.

Norma,

It is difficult to be precise on how long to let the new dough ferment at room temperature because of all of the variables. However, I think you want to see some signs of fermentation, such as volume expansion and/or fermentation bubbles, before cold fermenting the dough. If the conditions are the same as when you made your last dough, you might want to check the new dough at about 3 1/2-4 hours, or even sooner, to see if the dough shows signs of fermentation. The objective is to shorten the bulk fermentation period and replace the difference with cold fermentation.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 23, 2010, 11:42:01 AM
Norma,

It is difficult to be precise on how long to let the new dough ferment at room temperature because of all of the variables. However, I think you want to see some signs of fermentation, such as volume expansion and/or fermentation bubbles, before cold fermenting the dough. If the conditions are the same as when you made your last dough, you might want to check the new dough at about 3 1/2-4 hours, or even sooner, to see if the dough shows signs of fermentation. The objective is to shorten the bulk fermentation period and replace the difference with cold fermentation.

Peter

I can understand the objective is to shorten the bulk fermentation time and replace that difference with the cold ferment.

I will watch the new dough to see what happens, when I mix it tomorrow, and then decide when to ball and cold ferment the dough. I want to ball and cold ferment in less time to see what will happen.  I will also check the pH of the Ischia starter before using it.  All the conditions should be the same as when I made my last attempt.  It now is hotter in my area so the air-conditioner is on again. 

I had to run some errands and picked up the pH meter from market.  I took the pH of the Caputo dough and it is 5.41 and the KASL dough is 5.30. I found that interesting because the two doughs were made back to back, but just with different flours. I also decided to take the pH of my tap water and it was 7.70.  I then took the pH of the water I get filled in gallon jugs, which I always use to make my doughs and the pH of the jug water was 7.37.

I am going to change a variable in my next attempt at the dough tomorrow.  I had used Real Salt in all my experiments up until today.  Since I want to be able to see if any Ischia doughs might work at market, I am now going to start using the Mortonís Kosher salt tomorrow.

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 24, 2010, 08:00:44 AM
I removed the Ischia starter from the refrigerator this morning a took the pH of the starter, before I fed it.  The pH of the Ischia starter was 3.88.  I also took the Caputo dough pH and now it is 4.66.  The KASL dough pH is 4.89. It surprised me on how much the pH has gone down on both of the doughs. I also measured the poppy seeds and they are both 1 1/8 inches apart on both of the doughs.  The bottom of both dough do have more bubbles than yesterday. I donít know what these numbers are going to be able to help with, but will take the pH of the Ischia starter after it more active after I feed it.

Picture of pH of Ischia starter.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Pete-zza on September 24, 2010, 10:40:54 AM
Norma,

Thanks for posting the pH numbers. They are interesting to see and assess. I would have expected the Ischia starter to have lower pH numbers because of its high hydration (100%), which speeds up the prefermentation process. However, once the Ischia preferment is added to a much greater amount of dough with a much lower formula hydration (a total formula hydration of around 61% in your case), I would expect the pH of the final dough to decline during its fermentation but at a lower rate. I originally guessed a final pH value of around 5, and some subsequent research said that the optimum pH for the lactobacillus was 5, but there is no reason why the numbers can't go lower. However, if they get too low, that can cause problems, as we earlier discussed.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 24, 2010, 11:34:58 AM

Peter,

I sure donít understand all this with using an Ischia starter when sourdough has a lactobacilli and then them eating the sugars that are available, but think that it is temperature related to producing acetic acid though the enzyme activity of the yeast.  I would think that more sugars would be available at lower room ferment temperatures than higher temperatures.  Just by watching two same doughs with different kinds of flour, I can see a difference in the way the Ischia starter is behaving in terms of pH. I am also trying to understand that although the same amount of flours were used in the doughs, since the Caputo dough seemed more hydrated, if that is why the pH numbers are changing different than the KASL numbers. I am also curious since these dough are dropping so much in pH is they are having enough residual sugars to maintain the cells inside the yeast, to be able to have a successful bake.

I am ready to used the Ischia starter to make a dough.  I didnít take the pH of the starter right now, but will take it before I mix it in with the other ingredients.  I will also take the pH of the finished dough, after the finished dough is bulk fermented, and then in the next few days will also take the pH.  You are much better than I am at understanding what this numbers mean or donít mean.  I will post the other numbers soon.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 24, 2010, 01:00:31 PM
The pH of the Ischia starter was 3.73 before I mixed it into the other ingredients.  The pH of the final dough was 5.77.  I did use Kosher salt today.  The final dough temperature was 78 degrees  F.   Sorry in the final dough (in the picture), it can be seen what the numbers read.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Pete-zza on September 24, 2010, 01:13:51 PM
Norma,

I don't have an explanation at this point for why the Caputo dough and the KASL doughs have different pH readings. There are many differences between the two flours. For example, compared with the KASL flour, the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour is milled differently, has a lower protein content (and maybe even a different quality of protein), a lower rated absorption value, and is unmalted. It's possible that you sped up the fermentation process of the Caputo dough by using a hydration value that was the same as you used for the KASL. A fairer comparison might have been to use a hydration value for the Caputo dough that was closer to its rated absorption value. In the final analysis, what is likely to be more important, and possibly more useful, is to know what the pH numbers are when time comes to bake the pizzas.

You are correct that more sugars are likely to be released at lower temperatures than higher temperatures. That is because the amylase enzymes that break down damaged starch to simple sugars have a sweet spot in terms of its performance. November discussed this subject, along with some other useful information, at Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4517.msg37892.html#msg37892. You might also take a look at Reply 6 (and the links embedded therein) at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10219.msg89830/topicseen.html#msg89830.

In the final analysis, especially where you will be working with room temperatures that are not under completely your control to make doughs that are only under your control in a limited way (in the refrigerator/cooler), the variation in results you achieve may be hard to analyze and comprehend and work backwards to teach you what to do with the next doughs with their own sets of variables. To succeed on a consistent basis, you will have to learn to operate more like an Italian pizzaiolo. You won't see them talking about pH values, the Arrhenius equation or any other esoteric and arcane aspects of sourdoughs that even the experts can't completely understand and agree on. Yet, a good pizzaiolo will know when he has achieved a final dough with the desired characteristics.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 24, 2010, 04:00:10 PM
Peter,

You are probably right about the Caputo flour, using a hydration closer to its absorption value.  I am taking both the KASL and Caputo doughs over to Steveís today to bake in his WFO.  I know that wonít tell me anything about how these doughs would bake in my deck oven, but I will take the pH before the bake.  It is very warm in our area today and until I get to Steveís home, and then do the bake of these doughs, they are probably going to ferment more.

November sure knows what happens inside dough.  I only wish I could have that much knowledge.  As he says it is a delicate balance what goes into the dough and then when to use the dough.  Itís also interesting what pizzanapoletana had posted about mixing dough and oxygen.  He said, after all the oxygen is used up from the air (or oxygen) then the dough starts to ferment.  I always thought when the dough was mixed it then started the fermentation process.  He also talks about using malt to increase enzymatic activity in the dough.  That Arrhenius equation is way over my head. 

I doubt if I will ever learn to operate like a Italian pizzaiolo, but will try to understand what I can.

I did measure the pH on the bulk fermented dough after I balled it and it was still 5.77.  I will watch it over the next few days.  The dough was bulk fermented for 3 1/2 hours.   

Thanks for the links,

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Pete-zza on September 24, 2010, 05:43:50 PM
Norma,

November also discussed how yeast makes use of oxygen at Reply 14 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg33947.html#msg33947. You might also find his post at Reply 31 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4517.msg48023/topicseen.html#msg48023 of interest.

One of the most interesting things I learned from November about how yeast uses oxygen is that increasing the oxygen to the yeast does not meaningfully increase cellular respiration. I always thought that getting more oxygen to the yeast was a good thing. I even had an exchange on this subject with member pieguy at Replies 167, 169 and 171 starting at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.msg13846.html#msg13846. As it turns out, it looks like pieguy was correct. You can see my summary on this subject after my exchanges with November at Reply 7 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7022.msg60428/topicseen.html#msg60428.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 24, 2010, 09:38:40 PM
Peter,

Novemberís posts are very helpful.  What I find interesting is his posting of if you want more acetic acid to aerate the dough more and ferment at temperatures of 86 degrees F.  He also posted to get a good balance of acetic and lactic acids try cooler temperatures for longer periods and lactic acid levels arenít affected by the amount of oxygen as much as acetic acid.  I also see how you learned from November about how yeast uses oxygen. 

I didnít know if getting more oxygen to the yeast was a good thing or not, until I read the links you provided.  Thanks for the links.  I also there- in those links you provided that pizzanapoletana  posted, with the proper PH ratio and starter consistency, the yeast work much faster then the bacterias Is that true and does that also apply to making pizzas and not just bread?

I went to Steveís home and baked both of the KASL dough and the Caputo dough.  I am sure since they were baked in a WFO they came out much better than my deck oven.  The first pizza with KASL was baked at a higher temperature than the Caputo dough.  Steve was also trying some different experimental doughs and the first bake was the KASL dough.  The last bake was the Caputo dough.  In my opinion these pizzas turned out great.  They had a good taste in the crust and had nice oven spring.  Steve took the pHís of his doughs and I took the pHís of my doughs.  The Caputo doughs pH was 4.65 right before the bake and the KASL dough was 4.82 right before the bake. Steveís pHís were higher for his experimental doughs. The Caputo dough was much softer and it was harder to open, but not too bad.  The skin wanted to basically open itself.  I really enjoyed these pies from both of these doughs.

I did take a video of the Caputo pie baking in Steveís WFO.  After I upload that video, I will post it.

Pictures below of the KASL and Caputo pizzas,

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 24, 2010, 09:41:00 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 24, 2010, 09:41:52 PM
end of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 24, 2010, 11:09:54 PM
Video of Caputo flour with Ischia starter pizza baking in Steveís WFO.  This pizza was the longest bake time of the four pies made this evening.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WA3L1Zc8ppk

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 25, 2010, 07:52:24 AM
The dough I mixed yesterday and that is cold fermenting in the refrigerator has a pH reading of 5.34 this morning.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Pete-zza on September 25, 2010, 09:52:29 AM
I also there- in those links you provided that pizzanapoletana  posted, with the proper PH ratio and starter consistency, the yeast work much faster then the bacterias Is that true and does that also apply to making pizzas and not just bread?

Norma,

I believe the graph at http://www.egullet.com/imgs/egci/sourdough/graph1.jpg, which came from a post by member djones148 at Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8526.msg73739.html#msg73739, answers your question. Also, I would guess that the same phenomena are at work with pizza dough as with bread dough.

The pies look very good. Which pizza has the pepperoni? And what sizes were the pizzas?

Can you comment on the characteristics of the finished crusts as baked in a WFO and also comment on how they compare with your deck oven pizzas using the Ischia culture?

Peter
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 25, 2010, 11:07:34 AM
Norma,

I believe the graph at http://www.egullet.com/imgs/egci/sourdough/graph1.jpg, which came from a post by member djones148 at Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8526.msg73739.html#msg73739, answers your question. Also, I would guess that the same phenomena are at work with pizza dough as with bread dough.

The pies look very good. Which pizza has the pepperoni? And what sizes were the pizzas?

Can you comment on the characteristics of the finished crusts as baked in a WFO and also comment on how they compare with your deck oven pizzas using the Ischia culture?

Peter

Peter,

That graph does answer my question.  Up until about 76 degrees F, the yeast and bacteria stay about the same.  When going higher in temperatures there is a faster activity with the sourdough. I find it fascinating that the bread world and pizza world are so similar. 

Thanks for saying the pies look very good.  The pepperoni pizza was the Caputo flour with the Ischia starter.  All the pizzas were 14". 

To describe the characteristics of the finished crusts baked in Steveís WFO, the crusts are much better than when baked in my deck oven.  The bake is so much quicker and then it also leaves the crumb so much moister.  The pie that I baked at market on Tuesday was this moist, but with a quicker bake there is a difference. 

The first pictures are of the KASL with Ischia which is the same formula that I used at market, but didnít cold ferment the dough as long.  I liked that pie the best in terms of moistness in the rim. That pie also got the best oven spring. The oven was really hot for that bake and it really baked fast.  That crumb was moister than the one made with Caputo with the Ischia starter.  Steve might disagree with me on what he thought was the best crust between the two pies, but this is my opinion. We donít always agree. There wasnít any sourdough flavor in either of these crusts, that I could detect. There was a complex flavor in both crusts, but I thought they were different.

I donít ever think there can be a same kind of pie baked in my deck oven, but the pizza I did bake Tuesday, was good in my opinion, if the crust would have gotten darker and I could learn to control the gum line.

I really enjoyed these pies baked in Steveís WFO.  There were only four people at Steveís home and we managed to eat three pies. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Pete-zza on September 25, 2010, 12:05:47 PM
Norma,

When you have a chance can you prepare a chart of some sort that shows the pH values for the Ischia culture and the doughs at different stages? I believe you first started measuring pH values at Reply 156. I think you made two separate batches using KASL and Caputo Pizzeria flour, one of which was used at Steve's (I can't figure out which of the two sets of dough balls), and that you made a new batch yesterday, although it is not clear to me whether that batch is also a KASL/Caputo pairing. I think there were a total of five or six dough balls. Maybe they can be numbered accordingly.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 25, 2010, 02:06:06 PM
Peter,

I started taking the pH of the Caputo and KASL doughs, both with Ischia starters at reply 161 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11700.msg111357.html#msg111357
I used both the Caputo and KASL doughs with the Ischia starter at Steveís.  All the pictures I posted here above from Steve's home were made from both of those doughs.  The first pizza was made with the KASL/Ischia starter.  They were the pictures I posted with no pepperoni.  The pepperoni pictures were made with the Caputo/Ischia starter.  The new batch I made yesterday is just one dough ball and that is KASL/Ischia starter. 

I will make up a chart with all the pH numbers and see if we can find anything significant from those numbers.  I will keep measuring the pH numbers from day to day, until I do the bake of those dough balls.  I have only started to measure the pH of the Ischia starter before I incorporated it into the water, before mixing the other ingredients in.  I also will keep the pHís of any Ischia starters before I mix them into the other ingredients. 

On a side note, Steve did take the pH of his experimental doughs before he baked them, because I took the pH meter along.  I donít know if you will find this interesting or not but his one dough was 5.49 and his other dough ball was 5.44.  Neither of those dough balls were with the Ischia starter.  He made one with a Caputo poolish, incorporated into a KASL flour dough and the other dough was a Caputo flour with cake yeast. I am not sure exactly what he used in those formulas, expect what I posted above. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Pete-zza on September 25, 2010, 03:17:45 PM
On a side note, Steve did take the pH of his experimental doughs before he baked them, because I took the pH meter along.  I donít know if you will find this interesting or not but his one dough was 5.49 and his other dough ball was 5.44.  Neither of those dough balls were with the Ischia starter.  He made one with a Caputo poolish, incorporated into a KASL flour dough and the other dough was a Caputo flour with cake yeast. I am not sure exactly what he used in those formulas, expect what I posted above. 

Norma,

In order to properly compare Steve's pH values with yours, we would need to know the mode of fermentation (e.g., room temperature fermentation, cold fermentation, or a combination of both, and a final temper) and the duration of the fermentation process that Steve used to make his doughs. Generally, I would expect that a commercial preferment will not produce as much acid as a natural culture but the answer may turn on how much preferment Steve used, the fermentation protocol, and the total fermentation time. It does not sound like Steve was trying to mimic your efforts but using a commercial preferment instead of a natural one like you used.

The graphs shown in the "Acidification" section at http://www.theartisan.net/The_Artisan_Yeast_Treatise_Section_Two.htm#Acidification shows how pH values change with fermentation temperature and time. Your "graph" would differ because of the use of a three-step fermentation protocol, with the final pH value occuring just before using the dough to bake a pizza. Steve's "graph" would also reflect what he did with his dough.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 25, 2010, 09:42:55 PM
Peter,

I can understand to compare Steveís pH values with mine, we would need to know what he did with his dough.  I know he figured his dough out on one or more of the calculating tools on this forum, but I really donít know how long he fermented his dough.  I think his one dough was room temperature fermented, but I am not sure.  I will see if Steve wants to post his formulas, fermentation times, and whether the dough or doughs were cold fermented. 

In the next week, I will make some type of graph. I donít know if I will have time to post a graph like is shown at the "Acidification" section at http://www.theartisan.net/The_Artisan_Yeast_Treatise_Section_Two.htm#Acidification  Right now I am busy learning at my part-time job.  I will take the pH of the dough I just made daily for the time being.  I am learning on the computer at work and also hands on how to do many things.  I am even learning to be a Barista.  ;D  That is fascinating to me.  They even serve pizza were I work, but I havenít had time to check that out. 

Do you have any idea if a graph will help, in determining when the best time is to bake a pizza with the Ischia starter?  Did any other member ever do studies on this before?  Sorry to be asking all these questions, but I was just curious.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Pete-zza on September 25, 2010, 10:06:24 PM
Norma,

I don't think there is any need to prepare any graphs. I just wanted to see the progression of the pH values over time for the particular fermentation protocol you have been using. I am not sure at this point if there will be a way of using pH values proactively to come up with optimum formulations or bake times.

To the best of my knowledge, you are the first member to actually take pH measurements. However, scott r once speculated about the idea of using pH measurements for a starter culture, as he noted at Reply 13 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4482.msg37500.html#msg37500. I think that it would naturally follow to take later pH measurements of doughs into which natural starters/preferments are incorporated.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 25, 2010, 10:57:01 PM
Peter,

I will take the phís of the doughs and starters to see if this can lead to any findings.  I donít really think this will be able to tell when the dough is ready to be used, but maybe there will be something helpful that can be learned.  There is so much mystery in starters and knowing when they are ready to be used for a dough.  Then when you combine bulk ferments, different temperatures and then a cold ferments, it makes this even more mysterious.  I really like mysteries, so I will continue on this path to see if I can learn anything new.  I am really new to starters, so I have much more to learn. 

In the next few days, I will post all the numbers in one place. 

Thanks for all the links,

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 26, 2010, 07:46:39 AM
I took the pH of the dough again this morning and it was 4.97. 

On a side note my furry friend did have his operation on both hind legs.  I am glad to post that he is doing well, but will have some recovery time.   :)

Pictures of dough with pH meter, underside of dough and my furry friend this morning.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 27, 2010, 09:17:45 AM
I took the pH of the dough ball again this morning.  What I find interesting is that the pH seems to be dropping slower than in previous days.  This morning the pH of the dough ball is 4.87. 

Picture of dough ball with pH meter below.

September 23, 2010 I started taking pHís of dough balls and then eventually started taking the pH of the Ischia starter and now I am continuing to take the pHís of the dough ball with KASL flour with the Ischia starter added.

First pH measurements of KASL dough ball and Caputo dough ball

KASL  5.30
Caputo 5.41

September 24, 2010

Ischia starter when removed from refrigerator 3.88   pH of Ischia starter after it was fed 3.73
KASL  4.89
Caputo 4.66

pH of KASL and Caputo before bake at Steveís

KASL  4.82
Caputo 4.65

New dough ball made with Ischia starter to be made into a pizza Tuesday made September 24, 2010

KASL 5.77   bulk fermented for 3 Ĺ hrs. before balling

pH of KASL dough ball September 25, 2010

5.34

pH of dough ball September 26, 2010

4.97

pH of dough ball September 27, 2010

4.87

I will made a better chart to check the progress of using KASL with an Ischia starter, since I just started to do the pHís.  These are just the numbers for now on the pHís I have taken so far in seeing if pH numbers can help to understand this dough more.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 28, 2010, 09:48:56 PM
Steve and I made the pizza today out of the dough ball that had been cold fermenting since Friday.  I took the pH of the dough this afternoon before we made the pizza and the pH was 4.66.  I took a video of Steve opening the dough ball. As can been seen on this video the dough ball seemed fine and stretching the skin for Steve was easy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37QuuqdK5KY

This pizza turned out better than last week.  It did brown more and the taste was good, in my opinion.  First picture is of bottom of dough ball, after removing it from plastic container. Last picture is when I removed the cheese and had cut the crust to look inside the pizza.

Pictures below,

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 28, 2010, 09:50:25 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 28, 2010, 09:51:21 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 28, 2010, 09:52:35 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 28, 2010, 09:53:46 PM
end of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 29, 2010, 06:42:02 AM

I canít read Italian, but in this link posted by pizzanapoletana it says something about the dough pH being 5.87.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3722.msg32405.html#msg32405   I donít know if that is pizza dough or not, but wonder if he meant pizza dough pH should be around 5.87 when it is finished being mixed or bulk fermented.  http://www.pizzanapoletana.org/images/file/disciplinare_stg.pdf

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Matthew on September 29, 2010, 07:01:07 AM
I canít read Italian, but in this link posted by pizzanapoletana it says something about the dough pH being 5.87. 
Norma

Norma,
The ph of 5.87 refers to the charactersitics of the mixed dough prior to proofing.  You are allowed a tolerance of +/- 10%

Matt
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 29, 2010, 07:07:39 AM
Norma,
The ph of 5.87 refers to the charactersitics of the mixed dough prior to proofing.  You are allowed a tolerance of +/- 10%

Matt

Matt,

Thanks for helping me with the translation again.  :)  I sure couldnít understand what he meant in his pdf.  Did you ever read that whole pdf and learn any information from it?  It good to know that it meant mixed dough prior to proofing.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Pete-zza on September 29, 2010, 11:03:01 AM
Norma,

Since your latest pizza turned out so well, and apparently without any browning or gum line issues, would it be possible for you to provide a summary of the history of the latest dough? That will help me reset my thinking and better assess what might be a logical next step for you to proceed is that is what you want to do. I think I could perhaps take a stab at answering my own request but you had so many different dough balls in different stages that I would likely make a mess of it. What I would like to see is 1) the complete dough formulation you used for the last pizza (I believe you used a 15% poolish with Morton's Kosher salt instead of Real Salt), 2) the pH values, by day and date, for the Ischia culture and the final dough, and 3) the timelines and temperatures, if available, for the three-stage fermentation protocol (bulk room temperature, cold fermentation and temper before using).

Overall, were you satisfied with the fermentation protocol and your ability to overlay it with your market schedule? And was the last pizza good enough to encourage you to proceed with the next phase, whatever that might be?

Peter
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 29, 2010, 01:31:52 PM
Peter,

1.  I used the dough formulation at Reply 104 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11700.msg110725.html#msg110725
and did use Mortonís Kosher Salt for this dough.  The dough was bulk fermented for 3 Ĺ hrs.  I did use 15% poolish of the Ischia starter in the formula. 

2.  Friday morning September 24, 2010, fed Ischia starter

Ischia starter when removed from refrigerator 3.88   pH of Ischia starter after it was fed and active 3.73
Ambient room temperature was about 80 degrees F.

September 24, 2010

Mixed dough with Kitchen Aid mixer and final dough temperature was 78 degrees F.

KASL with Ischia starter dough pH 5.77   bulk fermented for 3 Ĺ hrs. before balling

pH of KASL dough ball September 25, 2010

5.34

pH of dough ball September 26, 2010

4.97

pH of dough ball September 27, 2010

4.87

pH of dough ball right before bake September 28, 2010

4.66

Temper time for dough ball at market was a little less than one hour.  I had planned on letting it temper at room temperature of about 87 degrees F for a little longer, but it had developed a bubble on top of the dough ball, so I went ahead and used it to make a pizza. 

I was satisfied with the overall protocol of the three stage fermentation process.  I did really like the difference in this pizza.  The bottom of the crust was more crispy than my normal Lehmann preferment pizza.  Even after it had cooled it was still somewhat crispy, even without reheating. I also liked the taste of the crust better than my normal Lehmann preferment pizza.  I want to continue this experiment, to see if I can keep replicating this process.  I also would like to see if this dough can be frozen and then be able to successfully made into a pizza, because if I have any other leftover dough, I can freeze the Lehmann preferment dough and use it for many things.  I am not sure if this current formulation can be frozen, or if when making a bigger batch, if everything will stay the same.  I also wonder if adding the variable of using Mortonís Kosher Salt had anything to do with this experiment.

By this last experiment it seems you were right about the amount of residual sugar being left in the dough to create browning.  More experiments should confirm this. It seems like the 3 Ĺ hr. bulk ferment did create enough residual sugar for the crust to brown.  I donít know if I should go down to 3 hours bulk ferment or not. 

Thanks for your help,

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Pete-zza on September 29, 2010, 03:11:16 PM
Norma,

Thank you very much for putting all of the relevant information in one place.

What I found most interesting is how your start and end points for your pH readings closely match the 29.5 degrees C (85.1 degrees F) graph shown in the Acidification section at http://www.theartisan.net/The_Artisan_Yeast_Treatise_Section_Two.htm#Acidification. That graph is the same one shown in Prof. Raymond Calvel's book The Taste of Bread (at page 56). In effect, your naturally-leavened Ischia dough, with a total fermentation time of about 4 days (my rough calculation), was equivalent in terms of the start and end pH values to a commercially-leavened dough that fermented at an ambient temperature of 85.1 degrees F (29.5 degrees C) for about a day. No doubt the comparison would be different for different yeast quantities, dough quantities and temperatures but your results nonetheless demonstrate that the pH values are in the ballpark. It will be interesting to see how the pH values hold up if you repeat the experiment.

I seem to recall that some of the members have frozen naturally-leavened doughs. However, I don't recall the circumstances and whether modifications to the starting dough formulation were necessary to compensate for the damage that freezing does to yeast. Commercial frozen dough producers usually increase the amount of yeast (commercial) to compensate for the loss of some of the yeast. The parallel for a naturally-leavened dough might be to use more of the natural preferment, maybe 30% poolish in your case. Maybe members who have frozen naturally-leavened doughs can offer you some insight or advice on this matter.

With respect to the type of salt, sea salt has minerals that yeast like to use as nutrients but I am not sure that using the Morton's Kosher salt means that you will get sub-par performance. I assume that when you used the dough calculating tool you selected the Morton's Kosher salt option, which would specify the proper amount of that salt to use.

As I studied your results, I couldn't help but wonder whether it is possible to lower the amount of the Ischia preferment to a starter quantity (e.g., 5% of the total formula water) and use a three-stage fermentation protocol that overlays your schedule at market. 5% of the total formula water in your dough formulation (or about 3% of the total formula flour) comes to only 8.35 grams. That would perhaps be something measured in teaspoons. I am only guessing, but maybe you would need, say, 12-15 hours, at room temperature before cold fermenting the dough. Maybe this is an experiment that can wait until you have gained more experience with the current dough formulation and procedures. Also, it wouldn't seem to make a lot of sense to spend a lot of time and use a lot of flour just to maintain a culture that is to be used in trivial quantities. You would need to make a sizable dough batch to justify the effort.

Peter

Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 29, 2010, 09:11:04 PM
Peter,

I didnít notice that my numbers for the pH were in line with the graph in the Acidification section of the link your referenced for my 4 days dough and they were about the same numbers for a commercial-leavened dough that was 85.1 degrees for about a day.  That is interesting to know.  I will repeat this experiment again this Friday to see if I can get about the same numbers. 

I donít know about freezing this dough either, but if this next experiment works out this week, then I might try freezing a dough ball to see what might happen.  It also would be interesting to see what other members results were in freezing their dough ball and also seeing what percent of starter they used in their dough.   

I didnít do another calculation for the Mortonís Kosher salt.  I just replaced the Mortonís Kosher Salt for the real salt in the same formulation.  Either I got lucky, or this salt also works well in the percent I used. 

At some point, I would like to go down to 5% of the total formula water or 3% of the total formula flour and also use a three-stage fermentation process.  I might do that in the coming weeks and make two different doughs to see what the results would be.  That would keep in line with Marcoís teachings for pizza making.  I donít know though with using a lower bake temperature and a flour that is different from a flour like Caputo what the results would be. 

Thanks for your help in going over my experiment and pH results,

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Pete-zza on September 29, 2010, 09:22:54 PM
Norma,

For 2.2% sea salt, that is 1.08 teaspoon, or just a bit over one teaspoon. For the same percent of Morton's Kosher salt, you would use 1.24 teaspoon, or a bit less than 1 1/4 teaspoon. You used 1.89% salt rather than the formula percent of 2.2%. It's up to you how much to use next time. I don't think that it will matter much but the higher salt level will slow the fermentation process more than the lower value.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on September 29, 2010, 10:20:45 PM
Norma,

For 2.2% sea salt, that is 1.08 teaspoon, or just a bit over one teaspoon. For the same percent of Morton's Kosher salt, you would use 1.24 teaspoon, or a bit less than 1 1/4 teaspoon. You used 1.89% salt rather than the formula percent of 2.2%. It's up to you how much to use next time. I don't think that it will matter much but the higher salt level will slow the fermentation process more than the lower value.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for figuring out the difference in the salt percents.  I think I will stay with the current formula, since it did seem to work this week. The dough seemed to ferment along the times lines I wanted in this experiment. The crust just tasted about right, in terms of salt for my taste.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on October 01, 2010, 11:14:26 AM
I took the pH of the Ischia starter this morning after I removed it from the refrigerator. The pH of the starter was 3.75. I then fed the Ischia starter and it was active in 2 Ĺ hrs.  The pH of the active starter was 3.81.  I then mixed the dough with the Ischia starter, in my Kitchen Aid mixer only on speed one.  Ambient room temperature was 72 degrees F.  Final dough temperature was 80.9.  pH of dough to be bulk fermented was 5.72. 

Pictures below,

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on October 02, 2010, 11:15:04 AM
I donít know what is going on with the dough I made with the Ischia/starter culture yesterday.  The pH reading of the dough ball is exactly the same as yesterday after 24 hrs.  pH is 5.72. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Matthew on October 03, 2010, 05:46:06 AM
Norma,
Just a thought, because I know you love your experiments.  Take some of your liquid starter & make a sponge (around 35% water or 54% hydration)  It will keep in the fridge for quite some time.  It should be extremely viable & could possibly give you the leavening that your looking for in this short window.

Matt
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on October 03, 2010, 07:57:48 AM
Norma,
Just a thought, because I know you love your experiments.  Take some of your liquid starter & make a sponge (around 35% water or 54% hydration)  It will keep in the fridge for quite some time.  It should be extremely viable & could possibly give you the leavening that your looking for in this short window.

Matt

Matt,

I never made a sponge before, so your idea is interesting.  :) You posted to take some of the liquid starter to make the sponge with around 35% water or 54% hydration.  Since my starter is now being feed 50/50 water to flour because it is a poolish, what would I do the next time I would want to make the sponge?  Do I feed by 35% water and 65% flour?  Could you explain to me why a sponge could be left in the fridge for the window of time I would need for my market time line.  Sorry to be asking all these questions, but would I then add the sponge to the final dough three days later like I am adding the poolish?  I donít really understand how sponges work or what the benefit of a sponge is. 

I know you have become a master of starters so I really appreciate any advice you can give me.  ;D I am only new to starters and donít understand how to know how much leavening power with different techniques will give me or how they go together in different time lines. 

Sorry if I sound confusing, but I am trying to understand. 

I really appreciate you help.  :) You are right in that I do really like to do experiments.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Matthew on October 03, 2010, 09:08:40 AM
Matt,

I never made a sponge before, so your idea is interesting.  :) You posted to take some of the liquid starter to make the sponge with around 35% water or 54% hydration.  Since my starter is now being feed 50/50 water to flour because it is a poolish, what would I do the next time I would want to make the sponge?  Do I feed by 35% water and 65% flour?  Could you explain to me why a sponge could be left in the fridge for the window of time I would need for my market time line.  Sorry to be asking all these questions, but would I then add the sponge to the final dough three days later like I am adding the poolish?  I donít really understand how sponges work or what the benefit of a sponge is. 

I know you have become a master of starters so I really appreciate any advice you can give me.  ;D I am only new to starters and donít understand how to know how much leavening power with different techniques will give me or how they go together in different time lines. 

Sorry if I sound confusing, but I am trying to understand. 

I really appreciate you help.  :) You are right in that I do really like to do experiments.

Norma


If your starter is 50/50 then do the following:

Take 245 grams of your current starter & mix in 10 grams of water to bring it to 108% hydration or 52% water, proof & make sure it's fully active.  Then mix in 1 cup of flour.  You can use immediately or refrigerate for future use.  In your case you would use it immediately.  To make more you can double up on the formula.  I know it seems redundant because you're adding water & then flour but my calculations are based on flour as the 100% ingredient.  The thicker the starter the longer it lasts.  I keep my starters pretty thick & as a result they proof really quickly & never develop any hooch.  You'll have to mess around with it at home mimicking your market timelines & conditions to see if it will work for you.  It may not be any better than using a poolish but it may be worth a try.

Matt


Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on October 03, 2010, 09:17:45 AM

If your starter is 50/50 then do the following:

Take 245 grams of your current starter & mix in 10 grams of water to bring it to 108% hydration or 52% water, proof & make sure it's fully active.  Then mix in 1 cup of flour.  You can use immediately or refrigerate for future use.  In your case you would use it immediately.  To make more you can double up on the formula.  I know it seems redundant because you're adding water & then flour but my calculations are based on flour as the 100% ingredient.  The thicker the starter the longer it lasts.  I keep my starters pretty thick & as a result they proof really quickly & never develop any hooch.  You'll have to mess around with it at home mimicking your market timelines & conditions to see if it will work for you.  It may not be any better than using a poolish but it may be worth a try.

Matt




Matt,

Thanks for your help and great idea.  ;D I will take some of my starter and prepare it in the way you have explained.  Your method using a sponge sounds very interesting.  When I do the formulation for the sponge that is then incorporated into the final dough, what percentage of sponge would you recommend in relation to either the flour or water.  Would you recommend using something like 5% sponge in the formula?

This is what I have read about sponges, including other articles.  In this article it says that the surface of the sponge contains vital clues to help bakers determine its readiness.  When many bubbles are evident and some cracks start to form and there is some collapsing, then the sponge is ready to incorporate into the final dough.  An under-mature sponge could negatively affect the strength of the because there then would be inadequate acid development and a over-mature sponge could also negatively affect the strength of the dough due to an increase in the acidity level.  It could then affect the flavor.  How do you know when all these things come together just right?

http://www.bakerconnection.com/artisanbaker/article_04.htm

I will do your experiment to see what happens.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Matthew on October 03, 2010, 09:49:25 AM
Matt,

Thanks for your help and great idea.  ;D I will take some of my starter and prepare it in the way you have explained.  Your method using a sponge sounds very interesting.  When I do the formulation for the sponge that is then incorporated into the final dough, what percentage of sponge would you recommend in relation to either the flour or water.  Would you recommend using something like 5% sponge in the formula?

This is what I have read about sponges, including other articles.  In this article it says that the surface of the sponge contains vital clues to help bakers determine its readiness.  When many bubbles are evident and some cracks start to form and there is some collapsing, then the sponge is ready to incorporate into the final dough.  An under-mature sponge could negatively affect the strength of the because there then would be inadequate acid development and a over-mature sponge could also negatively affect the strength of the dough due to an increase in the acidity level.  It could then affect the flavor.  How do you know when all these things come together just right?

http://www.bakerconnection.com/artisanbaker/article_04.htm

I will do your experiment to see what happens.

Norma

You can keep your proportions the same; start at 5% & then increase or decrease  as you see fit. 
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on October 03, 2010, 10:32:02 AM
You can keep your proportions the same; start at 5% & then increase or decrease  as you see fit. 

Matt,

Thanks for taking the time to explain this to me.  :)  Since I never tried to make a sponge before, this will be a learning process for me.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Pete-zza on October 03, 2010, 11:00:05 AM
Norma,

I see that Matt broke "cranky's rule": Don't give her any ideas  :-D.

As you will see from Reply 85 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1258.msg12498.html#msg12498, Marco (pizzanapoletana) also uses a sponge-like starter for his pizza doughs, with a hydration of 65-70%. I was aware of this all along but I did not want to distract you from your current round of poolish experiments. BTW, the article you referenced is the same Rosada article that we have been using right along, at http://web.archive.org/web/20040814193817/cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm. However, I am glad you found the article at the other website because that article has some photos, even if they don't show a lot of detail.

Peter



Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Matthew on October 03, 2010, 11:29:00 AM
Norma,

I see that Matt broke "cranky's rule": Don't give her any ideas  :-D.

As you will see from Reply 85 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1258.msg12498.html#msg12498, Marco (pizzanapoletana) also uses a sponge-like starter for his pizza doughs, with a hydration of 65-70%. I was aware of this all along but I did not want to distract you from your current round of poolish experiments. BTW, the article you referenced is the same Rosada article that we have been using right along, at http://web.archive.org/web/20040814193817/cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm. However, I am glad you found the article at the other website because that article has some photos, even if they don't show a lot of detail.

Peter





OOPS!!!!!  I must of missed "the don't give her any more ideas post" :-X

Peter, thanks for referencing that post.  It is very commom in Italy to keep a firm starter.  Most are kept at around 50% hydration are termed as "Madre" (mother dough).  I know for a fact that Gabriele Bonci from Pizzarium uses a 50% hydrated mother dough.  He builds it up by feeding it 100% flour equal to the weight of the remaining madre & mixes it with 50% of the flour weight in water.  I am guessing that this is done daily & then wrapped up tightly in a cotton or linen towel & tied with twine.
Matt
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Pete-zza on October 03, 2010, 11:56:44 AM
OOPS!!!!!  I must of missed "the don't give her any more ideas post" :-X

Matt,

I was just having a little fun. cranky penned his comment when he thought that Norma might make a cicada pizza (Reply 95 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10535.msg107864.html#msg107864).

Norma is used to making multiple doughs at one time. Consequently, so long as she doesn't change too many of the variables at one time, I think she should be OK. Fortunately, the preferment dough calculating tool can be used to establish the right ingredient quantities to use for a sponge application.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on October 03, 2010, 12:04:19 PM
Peter,

If there are new ideas that someone can help me understand, I am more than willing to do the experiment to see what happens.  I see by the first link you posted that Marco also posted  about Crisceto being a solid state and he also says the starter will never become too acid.  I never saw that post before.  Good to hear you were aware of this along and didnít want to distract me from my current experiments with the poolish, but I am willing to do two experiments at once so I can learn more about sponges and how they behave in a dough.  In the second link you posted I had only read about using a poolish, because that is what I am currently experimenting with.  I found the other link while searching one day. 

I wonít change any other variables except the sponge.  How should I go about figuring out the sponge on the preferment dough calculating tool.  Should I figure that out by the weight of water or flour?  I will start that experiment tomorrow.

I just hope Cranky doesnít read this thread and see I am doing another experiment.   :-D

Matt,

Thanks for posting that it is very common in Italy to keep a firm starter.  :)  The term Madre is interesting also.  I remember when I was experimenting with a Sicilian pizzas with a wild starter and was trying to get a pizza something like Pizzarium was making.  I sure didnít know what I was doing then, but did get some good pies out of those experiments.  Thanks for posting what Gabriele Bonci does.  You have learned so much so fast about starters and making different breads and pizzas.  My hat is off to you.  :chef:

Thanks for helping me learn more.  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Pete-zza on October 03, 2010, 12:32:47 PM
I wonít change any other variables except the sponge.  How should I go about figuring out the sponge on the preferment dough calculating tool.  Should I figure that out by the weight of water or flour? 

Norma,

You will first have to adjust or create a new natural preferment (sponge) that has 35% water as suggested by Matt. Then, in using the preferment dough calculating tool you will enter the number 5% as the value of the sponge (as a percent of the total formula water) and enter 35 as the percent of water in the sponge. Of course, as an alternative, you could use a much larger amount of sponge, just as you have done in previous experiments in this thread. But if you want to follow Marco's approach, you would use up to 5% of the total formula water. The 5% value would be common for a cool weather application.

Unfortunately, one variable is already changing--the temperature where you live. A sponge will ferment more slowly than a poolish because it has a lower hydration. That might affect the duration of the first stage (bulk room temperature fermentation) of the three-stage fermentation protocol. I am not sure whether you were using the break point of the poolish preferments you were making as a sign to move on to the second stage of the three-stage fermentation protocol, as you noted in citing the Rosada article, but you would normally also use the break point of the sponge. It might be harder to detect the break point of the sponge than with a poolish, because it is thicker, but that is the rule that is used for sponges. I am pretty certain that if you use the break point of the sponge, it will take quite a bit longer to reach that point than with your current poolish. If I am correct on this, that will affect the second and third stages (collectively) of the three-stage fermentation protocol. How that will affect your timeline and the final results remains to be seen.

If I mistated anything that Matt proposed, or if what I am now suggesting is out of line with his thinking, I will rely on Matt to correct me.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on October 03, 2010, 01:00:54 PM
Peter,

Thanks you for posting what I will need to do to figure out another formulation.  I think I would like to use Marcoís approach and try 5% sponge to see what happens with the final pizza when using a sponge.  Then I could compare the two pizzas, one with the higher amount of starter in a poolish form and then the other with a lower amount of sponge. 

I didnít think about the variable changing and it being the weather.  :-\ It is only 70 degrees ambient temperature in my home and that is only with the doors open and no windows.  It has gotten cool in my area lately and sometimes at nighttime can go down in the 40's.  I also didnít know about sponges fermenting slower than a poolish because the hydration is lower. That makes sense though.  I donít use the break point for the poolish at market.  It is usually just bubbly when I use it.  I never tried to make a pizza using the poolish break point.  I will have to watch the sponge to see what happens and if I am able to detect the break point.  I sure am not experienced with doing this, so this will be another learning process for me.  I wonít worry right now about how I might be able to incorporate this method at market, but want to be able to see what difference there is in the final pizza. 

I took the pH of the dough ball I made on Friday at another 24 hr. interval and now the pH is 5.30   

Thanks for your help,

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Matthew on October 03, 2010, 01:41:04 PM
Peter,
That was bang on.
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on October 04, 2010, 07:05:46 PM
I fed part of the one Ischia starter yesterday to try and convert it into a sponge.  I then refrigerated it overnight.  I removed it from the refrigerator this morning and fed it again.  It has sat out at room temperature for over 8 hrs.  It sure doesnít look like it is falling or any cracks are in the poolish, but since I have never tried to make a sponge before, I am not sure how the sponge is supposed to look. Maybe I didnít have it thick enough, but had a hard time incorporating the flour into the starter. I just made a dough out of this sponge (if it really is a sponge).  I am going to let it bulk ferment for the rest of this evening and then form it into a dough ball. The ambient temperature in my home was 65 degrees today.  I will try to bake this pizza tomorrow, just to see what happens.

Mattís Experimental Sponge Ischia Starter Pizza


Total Formula:
Flour (100%):            278.09 g  |  9.81 oz | 0.61 lbs
Water (60.9%):      169.36 g  |  5.97 oz | 0.37 lbs
Salt (2.2%):                6.12 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.27 tsp | 0.42 tbsp
Oil (1%):                        2.78 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.62 tsp | 0.21 tbsp
Total (164.1%):            456.35 g | 16.1 oz | 1.01 lbs | TF = 0.1045673

Preferment:
Flour:                  5.5 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs
Water:                2.96 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs
Total:                8.47 g | 0.3 oz | 0.02 lbs

Final Dough:
Flour:                    272.59 g | 9.62 oz | 0.6 lbs
Water:                  166.39 g | 5.87 oz | 0.37 lbs
Salt:                         6.12 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.27 tsp | 0.42 tbsp
Preferment:              8.47 g | 0.3 oz | 0.02 lbs
Oil:                              2.78 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.62 tsp | 0.21 tbsp
Total:                     456.35 g | 16.1 oz | 1.01 lbs  | TF = 0.1045673 bowl residue 1.5

pH of this starter sponge, before it was incorporated into the final dough was 3.89.  pH of final dough was 6.10.

pH of other dough with Ischia starter that has been cold fermenting since Friday today was 5.11.

Pictures below of sponge and final dough.  I mixed the final dough in my Kitchen Aid mixer on speed one. Final dough temperature was 76 degrees F,

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Matthew on October 04, 2010, 07:51:59 PM
Norma,
What happened?  The sponge should look like your second picture. 

Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on October 04, 2010, 08:49:17 PM
Norma,
What happened?  The sponge should look like your second picture. 



Matt,

I removed 65 grams of starter yesterday and fed it 65 grams flour and 35 grams water.  Today I did the same thing.  It was thick to mix.  Do you know what I could be doing wrong?  This starter is thicker than the poolish, but it sure doesn't look like a sponge to me.  It seems after I mixed the what was supposed to be sponge, while it was sitting for 8 hours it did get thinner.  Since I am new to sponges, I didn't know what to expect.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on October 05, 2010, 06:28:29 AM
I pulled the starter that was supposed to be transformed into a sponge from the refrigerator this morning.  This is a picture of what it looks like since it is cold.  I didn't feed the starter (sponge) after I was finished using it.  I will work on that starter again this week to see if I can get it thicker than it already is.

Picture

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Matthew on October 05, 2010, 06:32:02 AM
Matt,

I removed 65 grams of starter yesterday and fed it 65 grams flour and 35 grams water.  Today I did the same thing.  It was thick to mix.  Do you know what I could be doing wrong?  This starter is thicker than the poolish, but it sure doesn't look like a sponge to me.  It seems after I mixed the what was supposed to be sponge, while it was sitting for 8 hours it did get thinner.  Since I am new to sponges, I didn't know what to expect.

Norma

 :-D Norma, You were suppose to add flour only; no water.  The only water you were suppose to add it to increase the hydration slightly of your original starter.
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on October 05, 2010, 06:46:26 AM
:-D Norma, You were suppose to add flour only; no water.  The only water you were suppose to add it to increase the hydration slightly of your original starter.

Matt,

I didn't know I was supposed to just add flour to the starter.  I still don't understand how a sponge is suppose to look like.  As I posted before, I am new to sponges and sure don't know what I am doing.  :-D  I will still do the bake today to see what happens.  ::)

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Matthew on October 05, 2010, 06:56:14 AM
Matt,

I didn't know I was supposed to just add flour to the starter.  I still don't understand how a sponge is suppose to look like.  As I posted before, I am new to sponges and sure don't know what I am doing.  :-D  I will still do the bake today to see what happens.  ::)

Norma

It should look like a really dry dough at first.  It is somewhat difficult to mix.  I use a danish dough hook. You can use a wooden spoon & then when it gets to thick, give it a quick hand knead right in the bowl until all the flour has been incorporated.  At that point you can use it or refrigerate it in a container with a tight fitting lid.  It will keep more about 4 weeks.

Matt
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Pete-zza on October 05, 2010, 12:26:48 PM

If your starter is 50/50 then do the following:

Take 245 grams of your current starter & mix in 10 grams of water to bring it to 108% hydration or 52% water, proof & make sure it's fully active.  Then mix in 1 cup of flour.  You can use immediately or refrigerate for future use.  In your case you would use it immediately.  To make more you can double up on the formula.  I know it seems redundant because you're adding water & then flour but my calculations are based on flour as the 100% ingredient.  The thicker the starter the longer it lasts.  I keep my starters pretty thick & as a result they proof really quickly & never develop any hooch.  You'll have to mess around with it at home mimicking your market timelines & conditions to see if it will work for you.  It may not be any better than using a poolish but it may be worth a try.

Norma,

I know of your fondness for math, and maybe Matt can check my numbers, but the percent of water in your current poolish preferment can be expressed as follows:

W/(W + F) = 50%, where W is the weight of water and F is the weight of flour.

In order to determine how much flour to add to the poolish to get the percent of water to 35%, as Matt suggested, the above expression becomes:

W/[(W + F) + x] = 0.35, where "x" is the weight of the flour to be added to the poolish.

Assuming that you measure out 245 grams of your poolish as Matt suggested, with the poolish constituting 122.5 grams of flour and 122.5 grams of water, and solving for "x" in the above expression, we get x = 105 grams of flour that you would have to add to the 245 grams of your poolish. The total weight thus becomes 245 + 105 = 350 grams, and 122.5/350 = 35%. Of course, you would need only a small amount of that to make a single dough ball. In practice, one would make a much larger amount of sponge preferment and feed it with the proper amounts of flour and water to keep the percent of water at 35%.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Matthew on October 05, 2010, 02:58:17 PM
Peter,
Looks good to me!  I typically add make about 4 cups worth.

Matt
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on October 05, 2010, 09:13:04 PM
It should look like a really dry dough at first.  It is somewhat difficult to mix.  I use a danish dough hook. You can use a wooden spoon & then when it gets to thick, give it a quick hand knead right in the bowl until all the flour has been incorporated.  At that point you can use it or refrigerate it in a container with a tight fitting lid.  It will keep more about 4 weeks.

Matt

Matt,

Thanks for telling me that the sponge starter should look like a really dry dough at first.  That is interesting that the sponge will then keep up to two weeks.

Thanks again for your help,  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on October 05, 2010, 09:18:05 PM
Norma,

I know of your fondness for math, and maybe Matt can check my numbers, but the percent of water in your current poolish preferment can be expressed as follows:

W/(W + F) = 50%, where W is the weight of water and F is the weight of flour.

In order to determine how much flour to add to the poolish to get the percent of water to 35%, as Matt suggested, the above expression becomes:

W/[(W + F) + x] = 0.35, where "x" is the weight of the flour to be added to the poolish.

Assuming that you measure out 245 grams of your poolish as Matt suggested, with the poolish constituting 122.5 grams of flour and 122.5 grams of water, and solving for "x" in the above expression, we get x = 105 grams of flour that you would have to add to the 245 grams of your poolish. The total weight thus becomes 245 + 105 = 350 grams, and 122.5/350 = 35%. Of course, you would need only a small amount of that to make a single dough ball. In practice, one would make a much larger amount of sponge preferment and feed it with the proper amounts of flour and water to keep the percent of water at 35%.

Peter

Peter,

You are right about my fondness for math.  I can understand now what I did wrong.  Your explanation makes it much clearer to me how you arrived at what amount of flour I should be adding to make a sponge from the poolish starter.

I will take another attempt at this.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on October 05, 2010, 09:26:23 PM
Steve and I made another pizza today from the dough I made on Friday.  This pizza was better than my last attempt last Tuesday.  I think I left my paper at market where I marked the pH of this dough before the bake.  I know it was over 5.00, but canít remember the exact number.  I will get the pH of this dough ball right before the bake and post it later.

Pictures below,

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on October 05, 2010, 09:27:47 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on October 05, 2010, 09:29:06 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on October 05, 2010, 09:30:42 PM
end of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Pete-zza on October 05, 2010, 09:46:43 PM
Norma,

As best I can tell, the latest pizza was based on the same dough formulation you used last week except that the bulk fermentation at room temperature was shorter (2 1/2 hours), you used Morton's Kosher salt instead of sea salt, and you got somewhat higher pH readings for the dough. Did I get that right?

The latest pizza looks good. Can you tell us why you liked this one better than the last one? And did you have any problems making and using the dough that might bear on whether you can use the formulation at market?

Peter
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on October 05, 2010, 10:27:49 PM
Norma,

As best I can tell, the latest pizza was based on the same dough formulation you used last week except that the bulk fermentation at room temperature was shorter (2 1/2 hours), you used Morton's Kosher salt instead of sea salt, and you got somewhat higher pH readings for the dough. Did I get that right?

The latest pizza looks good. Can you tell us why you liked this one better than the last one? And did you have any problems making and using the dough that might bear on whether you can use the formulation at market?

Peter


Peter,

Yes, I used the same dough formulation that I used last week.  I also used the Mortonís Kosher salt last week.  This dough was bulk fermented for 3 hrs. before being cold fermented for 4 days.  I did get higher pH readings today before the bake.  It makes me wonder since it was cooler when I did the bulk ferment if that is why dough pH had stayed the same for one day and now was higher before the bake today. 

The reasons I like this pizza better today was the crumb was moister than last week and there seemed to be a better taste in the crust. I donít know why that happened. The pizza doesnít look that much different than last week, but I had other standholders taste the pizza and they also liked the crust. I didnít have any problems with making this dough or handling this dough.  I donít know how a bigger batch of dough would behave and can foresee there could be problems with a larger batch of dough.

I will post the pictures of the other pizza we made today, that I messed up on the sponge, when I get the pictures resized.  I donít know what kind of preferment that was, but that dough should have been fermented for a longer period of time.  That pizza tasted a lot more bready in the rim.  That dough was left to bulk ferment for four hours last evening, then cold fermented overnight and then left on the bench for 3 hours today.  The taste of that pizza was good, but not the same as the dough that was cold fermented for 4 days. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Pete-zza on October 05, 2010, 10:35:01 PM
It makes me wonder since it was cooler when I did the bulk ferment if that is why dough pH had stayed the same for one day and now was higher before the bake today.

Norma,

That is quite possible. Fermentation is temperature dependent so the lower temperature could have produced pH values that did not drop as fast.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on October 05, 2010, 10:52:27 PM
This is the pizza that was baked with the wrong amount of flour for my first attempt at a sponge.   What wonders me about this pizza is after letting it sit on the bench for a longer time, why it got the bubbles in the middle during the bake.  I could tell this dough wasnít fermented for long enough because the crust didnít brown as well and also there was a bready taste in the rim. 

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on October 05, 2010, 10:56:21 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on October 05, 2010, 10:57:06 PM
end of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on October 06, 2010, 08:16:17 AM
I had one other comment, that I forgot to post yesterday about this dough made with what was supposed to be a sponge, that I messed up.  I couldnít believe how different that dough was.  I didnít add any more oil to the mix or balling the dough, than I had added to the other dough using a poolish.  When I removed the dough from the container it felt so much softer than the other dough, although the other dough did feel soft.  I even got Steve to feel the dough.  It didnít have the same great smell because it wasnít fermented as long, but this dough was the softest dough I have ever made. Both of these doughs were made in the Kitchen Aid mixer on speed one. I don't think I introduced any other variables except the sponge experiment and protocol for for fermentation. I donít understand why it was so soft, but will see what happens in the next experiment if I get the sponge right. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: NY pizzastriver on October 06, 2010, 10:34:32 AM
Great rim rise Norm! It's nice to see that again, my rims haven't risen right in months, doesn't matter how long I knead. Might be a bad jar of yeast, who can say, but yours are great looking.

The best I'm getting is a rim that 1/2 bubbles, 1/2 stays flat, like this.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=576.0;attach=25590;image
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Pete-zza on October 06, 2010, 11:01:45 AM
This is the pizza that was baked with the wrong amount of flour for my first attempt at a sponge.   What wonders me about this pizza is after letting it sit on the bench for a longer time, why it got the bubbles in the middle during the bake.  I could tell this dough wasnít fermented for long enough because the crust didnít brown as well and also there was a bready taste in the rim. 

Norma,

Without knowing what your dough was actually made of in terms of the preferment, and what impact that might have had on your particular fermentation protocol for this specific dough, it is hard to accurately diagnose the bubbling problem. However, one of the most common causes of bubbling like you mentioned is underfermentation. You were using a natural leavening for your dough but you can read of some of the most common causes of bubbling in a commercially leavened dough at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7362.msg63551/topicseen.html#msg63551.

I'm not sure why you didn't end up with more crust coloration. A lack of sufficient residual sugar can occur with underfermentation (not enough time to release sugars from the flour by enzyme performance or suppression of the enzymes) but it can also occur with overfermentation (depletion of the residual sugars). If you took pH readings at the time the dough was used that might have provided some clues.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on October 06, 2010, 11:23:59 AM
Great rim rise Norm! It's nice to see that again, my rims haven't risen right in months, doesn't matter how long I knead. Might be a bad jar of yeast, who can say, but yours are great looking.

The best I'm getting is a rim that 1/2 bubbles, 1/2 stays flat, like this.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=576.0;attach=25590;image

NY pizzastriver,

The rise is partly due to the Ischia starter and longer ferment time.  I am learning how to use starters and find them interesting. 

I wonder why half of your pizzas get bubbles and the other half stays flat.  That doesnít make much sense.  Did you try a new jar of yeast?  Thanks for providing the link to your pizza.   What kind of formula are you currently using for your pizzas?

If you ever want to play around with the Ischia starter, let me know.  When using a starter in making dough, it is intriguing to see what will happen.  Hopefully some day I will be able to understand all complexities of using a starter.  Using the Ischia starter does give a more complex taste to the crust.

Thanks for saying the pizza had good rim rise.  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on October 06, 2010, 11:39:39 AM
Norma,

Without knowing what your dough was actually made of in terms of the preferment, and what impact that might have had on your particular fermentation protocol for this specific dough, it is hard to accurately diagnose the bubbling problem. However, one of the most common causes of bubbling like you mentioned is underfermentation. You were using a natural leavening for your dough but you can read of some of the most common causes of bubbling in a commercially leavened dough at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7362.msg63551/topicseen.html#msg63551.

I'm not sure why you didn't end up with more crust coloration. A lack of sufficient residual sugar can occur with underfermentation (not enough time to release sugars from the flour by enzyme performance or suppression of the enzymes) but it can also occur with overfermentation (depletion of the residual sugars). If you took pH readings at the time the dough was used that might have provided some clues.

Peter

Peter,

I had wondered why the bubbles formed in that pizza, while it was in the oven, when I donít usually have problems with that unless the dough is cooler or cold.  I knew that cold dough could be responsible, but knew I had this dough sitting on the bench for a decent amount of time.  Thank you for the link.  I think, but donít know that it must have been due to insufficient dough fermentation since I only used 5% of the sponge messed up starter.  I should have tried to let this dough sit out overnight to see what would happen, but didnít know how it behave and when I finished the dough later in the day on Monday, didnít let it ferment that long at room temperature for the small percent of starter that I used.  I also might have placed this dough ball out earlier in the day.  It probably would have fermented better.

I had wanted to take the pH of this dough, but forgot about it until I placed the pizza in the oven.  By then it was too late.  Maybe pH reading can help me with knowing when the dough is ready.  I will have to watch this over time to see if the pH reading are helpful. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: NY pizzastriver on October 06, 2010, 01:19:32 PM
Norma, yeah could be a bad jar. That was just a Lehmannn pie, standard, but my Glutenboy's are the same of late too. I hand knead again since mixer broke but frankly I used to get better rim rise hand kneading before the mixer came into play. I'm very anti-mixer now. As to using starters more power to ya! I have enough trouble remembering to water the bonsai, I'd surely kill off a living starter in a week flat! Id just like to find a new flour and yeast to work with, one that doesn't need ''hooch removal'', feeding, draining, etc. Without someone here to tell me ''that starter is ok to use, it won't kill you'' I have nothing to base it on.

Essen 1 mentioned using high wheat gluten additives, as you know no shop here has this. I have used Fleishmann's instant bread machine yeast and KABF forever. As you know there's not much else available in our neck of the woods, never mind finding all trumps high gluten flours, wheat gluten additives, etc.

Peace  8)
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Essen1 on October 06, 2010, 03:09:35 PM
Norma, yeah could be a bad jar. That was just a Lehmannn pie, standard, but my Glutenboy's are the same of late too. I hand knead again since mixer broke but frankly I used to get better rim rise hand kneading before the mixer came into play. I'm very anti-mixer now. As to using starters more power to ya! I have enough trouble remembering to water the bonsai, I'd surely kill off a living starter in a week flat! Id just like to find a new flour and yeast to work with, one that doesn't need ''hooch removal'', feeding, draining, etc. Without someone here to tell me ''that starter is ok to use, it won't kill you'' I have nothing to base it on.

Essen 1 mentioned using high wheat gluten additives, as you know no shop here has this. I have used Fleishmann's instant bread machine yeast and KABF forever. As you know there's not much else available in our neck of the woods, never mind finding all trumps high gluten flours, wheat gluten additives, etc.

Peace  8)

Jimbo,

Look for Bob's Red Mill Vital Wheat Gluten. Most Supermarkets should carry that brand. But I don't know if it helps with your crust problem.

I wonder what your hydration rate is. If it's around 60% or so, I'd go one or two percentage points higher and start out with a fatter rim when shaping.

Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on October 06, 2010, 03:46:12 PM

That was just a Lehmannn pie, standard, but my Glutenboy's are the same of late too.  Id just like to find a new flour and yeast to work with, one that doesn't need ''hooch removal'', feeding, draining, etc. Without someone here to tell me ''that starter is ok to use, it won't kill you'' I have nothing to base it on.

Essen 1 mentioned using high wheat gluten additives, as you know no shop here has this. I have used Fleishmann's instant bread machine yeast and KABF forever. As you know there's not much else available in our neck of the woods, never mind finding all trumps high gluten flours, wheat gluten additives, etc.

Peace  8)

Jim,

I have made Lehmann pies in my home oven and donít have problems with the crust rising, even though my home oven doesnít get up to high temperatures.  There is Kryol flour at the Country store between Mt. Joy and Manheim.  It works similar to All Trumps.  The Kryol flour is only about .43 a pound.  They also have the bakers grade of IDY there.  I think the Kyrol flour is almost comparable to All Trumps.  I have used that flour in different experiments I tried.  I also can get you some KASL if you want to play around with that and see if it would help you get more oven spring.  If you ever want any, just come to market.  I get that in 50 lb. bags.  If you would decide to come to market you could also get to meet Steve.  He built a WFO and also experiments with different pies. He uses KASL, too. The KASL has gone up in price a little, but it does work well for me in this formula and others I have tried.  Weis market does carry cake yeast if you want to give that a go. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on October 07, 2010, 01:10:02 PM
I went to market today and picked up the paper with the pH number of the pizza made with the Ischia poolish starter on Tuesday. The pH right before the bake of that pizza was 5.07.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Pete-zza on October 07, 2010, 05:06:50 PM
Norma,

As best I can tell, the latest poolish Lehmann dough had higher pH values than the previous one and a lower final value. It could well be that you preferred less fermentation byproducts in the dough and a resulting milder crust flavor.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on October 07, 2010, 11:20:57 PM
Norma,

As best I can tell, the latest poolish Lehmann dough had higher pH values than the previous one and a lower final value. It could well be that you preferred less fermentation byproducts in the dough and a resulting milder crust flavor.

Peter

Peter,

I donít know if I am doing this the right way but, from the numbers I took of pH from the dough I made last week started with a pH of 5.77 and ended up with a pH of 4.66.  The dough I made last Friday started with a pH of 5.72 and ended with a pH of 5.07 on Tuesday.  It seems to me that the dough I started last Friday and used this Tuesday had numbers that didnít fall as much. I donít know what that can tell me about the pizza I made on Tuesday that I thought was better. Really I donít understand all of this at this time.  I just know that the dough was bulk fermented at lower temperatures and had a higher pH reading at the end of the cold ferment had a better taste and was moister in the crust of the pizza.  From what I had read before a better temperature to bulk ferment the dough is about 76 degrees F, so the yeast and the bacteria stay about the same.   I have to study more and see if I can understand how all these things relate to each other. 

I will make another dough tomorrow and also take the temperatures of where I am bulk fermenting the dough, the final dough temperature, the starting pH of the Ischia starter, the final pH of the Ischia starter after it is active, and the final dough pH.  Maybe I can learn more this week.  I wonít be making a dough with a sponge this week because I have to take my furry friend to the vets tomorrow, go to market to make my poolish and clean, and work tomorrow evening. That is enough for tomorrow.  I will make another dough with a sponge next week. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Pete-zza on October 08, 2010, 09:35:17 AM
Norma,

Your sample of only two dough balls is much too small to be able to tell what factors were involved in your last results. You will perhaps want to repeat your last dough experiment as closely as possible, and perhaps with many others to follow, realizing that you will be confronted with progressively cooler ambient temperatures as we head into fall and winter. As I see it, the principal uncontrolled variable in your case is the ambient temperature of the bulk fermentation (and to a much lesser degree the ambient temperature during tempering of the doughs). That temperature and the duration of the fermentation, which are both interrelated, will affect the rest of the fermentation protocol and have an impact on the final results. I think that is the part of the process that has to be mastered and replicated consistently if you are to have a chance of offering an Ischia Lehmann pizza at market (if you are even thinking of that possibility). After you have conducted many more experiments, you may discover that the end product will vary with each dough but still produce acceptable results. At this point, getting consistent results is more important in my view than understanding all of the many factors (the biochemistry, etc.) that produce the results. Of course, you may want to continue to take pH readings in order to build up a database of those values to examine to see if any patterns present themselves that will help produce the desired end results on a consistent basis.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on October 08, 2010, 12:00:00 PM
Peter,

I understand that these last two experiments arenít enough to be able to understand what is happening with this formula.  I am repeating the same process of making the dough today and since it about the same temperatures as last week, at least that wonít be another variable.  I can see that one variable is now changing though.  The pH of the starter this morning has changed.  I donít know if that is from the repeated feeding of the Ischia starter or not, but will wait to see what the final dough pH is.  I know the principal uncontrolled variable will be the ambient temperatures where I make the dough.  I do want to go forward with trying to make a pizza at market with the Ischia starter.  In my opinion the pizza crust and crumb are much better.  I also can understand to get consistent results from week to week is what I need to work on right now.

I will continue to take the pH readings of the Ischia starter and then the final dough pH from day to day.  I donít know at this time if any patterns will be able to tell me more about this dough, but it is worth a try.  If I find time next week, I would like to make two doughs and freeze one to see how well this dough freezes.  That also could be another problem.  I am in no hurry to try to see if I can produce results consistently at this time for market.  I still have the preferment Lehmann dough that I like very much.  I  have too much to learn about this dough, before I would try a five dough ball batch as I have done in the past, when trying a new dough for market.   At least in these past two experiments it has worked out in the time frame that I have for making dough at market. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Pete-zza on October 08, 2010, 12:26:39 PM
Norma,

I think it would help if you make up a worksheet/template to record all of the pH values for your various doughs, so that all of the values can be posted with the final baked pizza results. That way, it won't be necessary to go back through several posts to reconstruct the data.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on October 08, 2010, 03:09:48 PM
Peter,

I agree that it would help to make up a worksheet/template to record all of the pH values so the values can be posted with the pizza results.  I will make up a document this weekend that will have all the data for the last two pizzas and the one I made today.  That way I can add numbers to my worksheet each week and then post them.

I made another dough today for this experiment with the Ischia/culture.  The pH of the Ischia starter before feeding was 3.91.  Two hours after the starter was fed and ready to be incorporated into the dough the pH was 3.95.  The Ischia poolish starter had almost tripled in volume after feeding. The ambient temperature of where the dough would be bulk fermented was 73 degrees.  The final dough temperature was 78.6.  The final dough pH was 5.79.  The dough was left to bulk ferment for 2 Ĺ hrs. and then formed into a ball.  The dough in the picture of the dough that was  being bulk fermented looked different than when I formed the dough ball.  The dough ball looked a lot smoother after I formed the ball.  I mixed the dough on speed 1 again in my Kitchen Aid mixer.  I am trying to be as gentle as I can with this dough. 

Pictures below, sorry the one picture doesnít show the pH of the final dough.  I donít know what goes on with that because when I take the picture I can see the reading on the pH meter.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on October 09, 2010, 11:53:08 AM
This is the pH worksheet for the 3 experimental doughs.

Norma
            
            

Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on October 10, 2010, 01:28:34 PM
Added pH for today.  What I find interesting about these numbers is that it seems when the Ischia starter had a higher pH after being fed, then the numbers are staying higher in the days the dough is being cold fermented.  I don't know if this will have any difference in the bake of this pizza Tuesday.

ph values below

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on October 11, 2010, 12:31:13 PM
Instead of posting another worksheet, if anyone is following this thread, I thought I would post  pictures of how the dough looks on the top and underneath today. This might help to show how this dough is fermenting. The dough does smell good.  I will post another worksheet after this dough is baked into a pizza.  The pH reading today after another 24 hours is 5.20.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on October 12, 2010, 09:50:35 PM
The third experimental pizza was made today.  The taste of this pizza was about the same as last week.  It was good in my opinion.  The pizza was baked  a little longer, so the inside of the rim wasnít as moist as last week, but it was still moist enough for my taste.  I donít think this pizza had as much oven spring as last week.  At least there were consistent results from last week until this week.

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on October 12, 2010, 09:52:03 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on October 12, 2010, 09:53:24 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on October 12, 2010, 09:54:40 PM
end of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Pete-zza on October 12, 2010, 10:24:23 PM
Norma,

I assume that you will update the pH chart to reflect the pH value of the latest dough at the time of baking.

What is next? A five dough ball batch?

Peter
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on October 12, 2010, 10:36:27 PM
Norma,

I assume that you will update the pH chart to reflect the pH value of the latest dough at the time of baking.

What is next? A five dough ball batch?

Peter

Peter,

I will update the pH chart tomorrow and post it to reflect the pH value of the latest dough at the time of the bake of this pie. 

Before I make a 5 dough ball batch, I think I want to try a biga in this formula, to see how a pie with a biga would taste.  I started playing around with the biga with the Ischia starter, but didn't have time to make a test dough  ball.  I am not sure at this time how I will go about trying this, but will post when I have an idea of what I am trying.

Norma

Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on October 13, 2010, 09:38:55 AM
This is the latest worksheet for the Ishcia/culture dough with the last two pH numbers.

I had problems trying to post this worksheet in my other post.  If anyone has a printer/scanner combination, I found I had to first print the worksheet, then scan the worksheet on my printer/scanner by first selecting scan picture, then save to file as a jpg.  Then I could go to my scanner files to be able to post this worksheet as a jpg.  I donít know if this will be able to help other members to be able to post worksheets or maybe formulas that they want to post from the preferment calculating tool or one of the other dough tools here on the forum, but this has helped me to be able to post this worksheet. 

This formula that I had saved in my files for my scanner doesnít have anything to do with this thread, but thought I would show how to post a formula that I did on the Deep-dish calculating tool awhile ago when I was making a Deep-dish pie.  Maybe it can help other members to be able to know how to post a whole formula with all the numbers written in. Of course these scanner jpg. files have to be resized just like pictures.   :-D

Pictures below of worksheet and Deep-dish formula.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on October 13, 2010, 11:54:56 AM
These are pictures of the biga I am playing around with to try in my next experiment.  I started feeding the biga on Monday evening.  It fell during the night early Tuesday.  I fed it again last evening and have it sitting out at room temperature all the time.  I am going to make dough later tonight, because I have work this afternoon.  I am going to Steveís home again on Friday evening if it doesnít rain.  I will make two doughs out of this biga to try in Steveís WFO.  I am also going to make another dough on Friday with this biga to see what happens for a bake on Tuesday.  Right now the pH of this biga is 4.00.

Pictures of biga since Monday evening.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Pete-zza on October 13, 2010, 12:29:03 PM
Norma,

Can you tell us how you converted part of your Ischia poolish culture to biga format and what amount of flour and water you have been using as part of your feeding regimen to get/keep the percent of water to 35%?

Peter
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on October 13, 2010, 06:53:21 PM
Norma,

Can you tell us how you converted part of your Ischia poolish culture to biga format and what amount of flour and water you have been using as part of your feeding regimen to get/keep the percent of water to 35%?

Peter

Peter,

I know if probably didnít go about converting this Ischia poolish culture into a biga format in the right way, but I had started last week to convert the Ischia poolish into a biga by measuring 105 grams of flour and feeding the Ischia poolish a couple of times.  Then I placed the mixture into the refrigerator until Monday evening.  The next thing I did was take one cup of the mixture, added 4 cups of flour and 3 cups of water to the mixture.  The mixture does look like a biga to me, but I am not sure if it is really a biga.  I want to leave this mixture (biga) at room temperature and keep feeding it until Friday and then make a dough for Tuesday.  I am going to also make two doughs tonight to take to Steveís. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Pete-zza on October 13, 2010, 10:21:26 PM
Norma,

Unless you can reproduce your biga-like preferment and quantify its components (flour and water) by weight, and confirm a water content of 35%, your results may be inconclusive and not offer any guidance as what to do next. Your fermentation protocol may also not be the best one for your biga-like preferment.   

Peter
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on October 13, 2010, 10:56:56 PM
Norma,

Unless you can reproduce your biga-like preferment and quantify its components (flour and water) by weight, and confirm a water content of 35%, your results may be inconclusive and not offer any guidance as what to do next. Your fermentation protocol may also not be the best one for your biga-like preferment.   

Peter

Peter,

I can understand what I did wonít give me any conclusive results.  I just wasnít sure of how much flour and water to add to the poolish/culture after my first feed of 105 grams of flour.  How would I go about fixing the mixture I have now?  My math skills are still lacking when knowing what to do. I want to try this mixture or if I can fix it on Friday in a dough for market.  Will letting this mixture out at room temperature to feed it, mess up the fermentation protocol if I can get the mixture straightened out?

I made two doughs tonight.  One with Caputo flour and one with KASL.  I used the formula I had posted at Reply # 213.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11700.msg112891.html#msg112891   What interested me about taking the pH levels of the mixture after it was active and had fallen this evening was the pH of the active mixture was 4.26.   After I mixed the final dough the pH of the KASL dough was 5.04 and the pH of the final dough with the Caputo flour was 5.02.  They seem low, but can see there isnít the amount of starter in these doughs, that I had tried before. I wonder if the pH levels now will go up while the dough is bulk fermenting.  I have no idea how these doughs are going to turn out when baking a pizza.  I also took the ambient room temperature and final dough temperatures .  I will take the pH levels again when I am ready to ball the dough and put it into the refrigerator. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on October 14, 2010, 09:11:55 AM
Below is the pH, final dough temp. and ambient room temp. worksheet for the two doughs I made yesterday.  I have balled both doughs and I am going to let them room temperature ferment until I think they look fermented enough.  Both of the doughs now look like they are fermenting slowly.

A quote from Lillian Dickson, which is true in my opinion. ďLife is like a coin.  You can spend it any way you wish..but you can only spend it once!Ē another quote, ďLearn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow and The important thing is not to stop questioning.Ē, "The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing."
Albert Einstein

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Pete-zza on October 14, 2010, 09:57:15 AM
I can understand what I did wonít give me any conclusive results.  I just wasnít sure of how much flour and water to add to the poolish/culture after my first feed of 105 grams of flour.  How would I go about fixing the mixture I have now?  My math skills are still lacking when knowing what to do. I want to try this mixture or if I can fix it on Friday in a dough for market.  Will letting this mixture out at room temperature to feed it, mess up the fermentation protocol if I can get the mixture straightened out?

Norma,

What has confused me is your decision to switch from an Ischia poolish to an Ischia biga preferment. That surprised me because your last attempt to use a biga with the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation--albeit a commercially leavened biga--did not produce the desired results (mainly because of the low hydration). Also, I thought that at some point you wanted to make another run at using an Ischia sponge preferment as suggested by Matt.

Under the circumstances, I think you should let your recent experiments with the KASL and Caputo flours run their full course. Although we really don't know the precise nature of the preferments used in those doughs, maybe you will learn something from the experiments anyway.

Next, I would decide what kind of Ischia preferment you would really like to try next, whether it is a biga preferment, a sponge preferment, or even another poolish preferment. Then I would develop a plan for that particular preferment, including a dough formulation and a possible fermentation protocol that might work in your setting at market. Unfortunately, I will not be able to help you with that effort until next week since I will be attending an out-of-town wedding this weekend and won't be in a position to work on the matter. In any event, if you decide that you want to try a biga or sponge preferment for your next experiment, I would suggest that you start a new thread devoted to that experiment. I think that a new thread would be more efficient organizationally and should make it easier to follow the experiment without having posts on multiple experiments intertwined in the same thread.

Of course, you should feel free to try another experiment on Friday for completion at market next week so that you don't lose a week's time. Maybe you can try Matt's sponge method again. If he is available, he might even be able to assist you with the numbers for the dough formulation.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on October 14, 2010, 11:19:27 AM
Peter,

Sorry to confuse you with my decision to try another kind of preferment.  Before I am fully committed to trying any dough out for market, I like to explore the different possibilities to see what a crust would taste like using something like a biga or sponge.  I know I donít have the math skills to go forward with these experiments, without help.  I know I tried a biga before in the experiment for the preferment for the Lehmann dough before you came up with the poolish modification for the preferment Lehmann dough thread.  I donít really understand what the difference is in preparing the Ischia starter poolish to change it into a sponge or biga format.  In this experiment I just did with the Ischia starter by trying to change it, I just wanted to see what difference the taste would be in letting the mixture sit at room temperature and feeding it, something like a sourdough crust.  I have never really tasted a pizza made that had any sour taste in the crust and donít know if I would like a sour taste in the crust.  Since I used a small percentage of the mixture in this KASL and Caputo doughs, I donít think there will be a sour taste in the crust, but that is just what I wanted to find out.  I might mix a dough on Friday that has more percentage of this mixture to see how that will affect the taste of the crust. 

I would like to try a sponge like Matt suggested to also see how this would affect the crust taste.  Probably none of these ideas are going to be ideal for my market pizza, because the time frame probably wonít fit into something that has to be fermented for a longer while like a biga or sponge.  I surely donít know what kind of mixture I have now, but can see how long it takes for this mixture to rise and fall.  That wouldnít work out in the time frame for market and also with the changing ambient temperatures at market.  I know that only making pizzas only one day a week and trying to keep any kind of starter active is going to be a challenge that probably wonít work out.  I can understand that the Ischia/culture poolish 3 stage fermentation process probably would have the best chance of success.

Have a nice time at wedding this weekend.  I will think about what I would like to try out until next week and maybe do another experiment for Friday, even though the results wonít be conclusive.  If I ever do find some kind of success with any kind of dough formula, I want it to be clear how I go about doing it, so if someone else wants to try the formula they wouldnít have problems trying to follow what I did.  I know this recent experiment is not consistent.

If I go forward with another type of preferment, I will start a new thread. 

I always seem to get over my head in wanting to try out new experiments, because I donít really have the skills to go forward by myself.  :-D

Thanks for your help.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Pete-zza on October 14, 2010, 12:20:43 PM
Norma,

Thank you for clarifying what you want to do. However, I think it is important to understand that there are some important distinctions between making and using commercially-leavened preferments and naturally-leavened preferments. With commercially-leavened preferments, you can make them and use them at will as the need dictates. If you'd like, you can make and use them on a one-off basis. That is hard to do with naturally-leavened preferments. It is not particularly difficult to convert a given preferment to another form, such as converting your poolish preferment to a biga preferment of a sponge preferment, and certainly there is some math involved, but once that is done, the new preferment form ideally should be fed through multiple feedings and strengthened before using. Otherwise, it may not perform optimally or maybe not even close to optimally. If you try to make several different preferment forms in parallel, you in effect are creating multiple preferments that have to be kept going simultaneously, as by regularly feeding them in accordance with the hydration values unique to the particular preferment forms (e.g., a biga will be the stiffest in consistency, followed by a sponge and, finally, a poolish).

In my opinion, it is far better to work on one preferment form at a time and develop the strength of the preferment and determine what might be the best or optimum fermentation protocol for what you want to do. Once I learn how the preferment behaves and performs, and have decided on its acceptability for the intended purpose one way or another, then I would move on to the next preferment form and repeat the exercise. I think that doing one-off experiments with different naturally-leavened preferments will tell you a lot about dough hydration but that may not be enough. For example, you might find that you don't get the performance you were seeking and attribute the deficiency in performance to the preferment in question when the problem was really an execution problem (e.g., an insufficiently prepared preferment or an improper or incorrect fermentation protocol for that preferment in the context of the intended application).

Peter
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on October 14, 2010, 03:53:01 PM
Peter,

I do understand there are differences from commercially-leavened preferments and naturally-leavened preferments and the naturally-leavened preferments can give anyone more problems in understanding them.  Examples, feeding schedule, strength of the starter, hydration, ambient room temperatures and type of starters.  I also can understand by having different types of naturally-leavened preferments that I would need to feed them differently and might not understand  where I had the problems with either execution or performance of the dough. 

If I can understand how to go about maintaining a sponge starter, I would like to try that next, just to be able to understand how a sponge works in a dough.  I donít know at this time if I will be able to successfully do this, but it is something I want to try if I can. 

On a side note about the two doughs I did make, I was watching the pH levels while the two doughs were room temperature fermenting and the levels went down on the KASL dough to 4.64 and pH levels on the Caputo dough went down to 4.67. There is some bubbling on the bottom of the doughs balls and few tiny bubbles on the top of the dough. I will post some pictures of the dough balls later. I did refrigerate the dough.  Hopefully the pH levels wonít drop to far until tomorrow.  I found it interesting that after the final dough was made the pH levels were down, then came up, and now have gone down again.  I can see why there is so much mystery in any dough made with a naturally-leavened starter.  Just by watching these pH levels, I can see there are changes in the dough, but donít know what to expect when the pie is finally baked. Visually I could usually see how a dough ferments, but it is interesting to be able to watch the numbers, even if it doesnít mean to much.  I will make another worksheet after the doughs are baked.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on October 14, 2010, 07:53:20 PM
Pictures of the KASL dough ball and the Caputo dough ball made with the mixture/Ischia starter.  First picture KASL dough top, second picture Caputo dough ball top, third picture bottom of KASL dough ball, fourth picture is the bottom of the Caputo dough ball.  These dough balls are now cold fermenting in the refrigerator after the pH levels starting falling to much in my opinion  Both of these dough balls are very soft.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on October 15, 2010, 11:11:10 PM
I was invited to Steveís home tonight to make pizza in his WFO.  I took both of the doughs along that I had made with the Ischia starter/mixture.  These pies baked in Steveís WFO were great in my opinion.  The beauty of the fire and heat sure make baking in a WFO fun.  The pizzas bake so fast, too.

Videos of both pies baked in Steveís WFO.

First video was Caputo Flour with Ischia starter/mixture

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y751k9kAbzo

Second video was KASL Flour with Ischia starter/mixture.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJf7t3FchmA

Pictures below of both of the pies.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on October 15, 2010, 11:13:24 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on October 15, 2010, 11:16:13 PM
end of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on October 16, 2010, 08:37:22 AM
Worksheet for the pies made with the Ischia/mixture starter.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on October 17, 2010, 12:07:32 PM
These are the pH values and temperatures for the recent dough I mixed.  I used the formula at Reply #104 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11700.msg110725.html#msg110725 but used the Ischia/mixture starter in this dough.  The starter had been left out at room temperature since Monday evening.  The pH was taken before I mixed the starter into the final dough.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on October 17, 2010, 12:57:34 PM
While searching for something else, I found this article. I find this article interesting even if I donít understand all of it.  http://wpage.unina.it/giamauri/Materiale_vario/Coppola_pizza.pdf   I can see from this article there can be so much difference in the use of different starters, ferment times and how the doughs Rheological properties of leavened doughs all come into play.  Another thing I find interesting about this pdf. article is the leavening time can be the utmost importance while using sourdough fermentation in artisan pizza making. 

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on October 19, 2010, 09:27:05 PM
The pizza was made today with the Ischia starter/mixture. Even with using a higher percentage of the mixture/starter that was left out at room temperature for 5 days, this pizza didnít taste much different than the other pizzas I made with the Ischia starter.  There wasnít any sour taste in the crust.   The pizza also looked very similar to my other pies.

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on October 19, 2010, 09:28:28 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on October 19, 2010, 09:29:35 PM
end of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: StrayBullet on October 19, 2010, 09:58:34 PM
LOVE the look Norma!!!

And thanks again for the "fragile" package...I can't help but to think of 'A Christmas Story' every-time that line pops to mind :D
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on October 19, 2010, 10:23:13 PM
LOVE the look Norma!!!

And thanks again for the "fragile" package...I can't help but to think of 'A Christmas Story' every-time that line pops to mind :D

StrayBullet,

Thanks for saying you love the look of the pie with the Ischia starter.  :)  This pie was good, with a complex flavor in the crust.  I still canít figure out when using a lower amount of starter and then a higher amount of mixture/starter in this same dough, how the crust still tastes about the same. 

There is a post by coffemoon that might be helpful for you in activating the Ischia starter from its dry state.  I copied what I read in this post from coffemoon.  It tells how to activate a starter when it is dried.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10008.msg89742.html#msg89742
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10008.msg89739.html#msg89739

I am glad you liked your ďfragileĒ package.  Best of luck with pizzas you can make with Ischia starter.   :)

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on October 20, 2010, 08:40:45 AM
This is the worksheet for the pizza that was baked yesterday, with the Ischia starter/mixture. 

After tasting this pizza and seeing the results of this bake, I donít think there is any merit in trying a sponge or another type of mixture in the Ischia starter with this same formula.  I have used a poolish in this formula different times and now have tried a thicker starter/mixture in this same formula.  This last attempt was even fermented differently and from start to finish. This dough was made in three days instead of four days.  The dough was bulk fermented for 5 hours, then balled and left at room temperature 3 hours and then cold fermented for three days.  I couldnít taste any significant difference in the crust and the pie looked almost the same.  I would have thought by using this Ischia starter/mixture that had set out at room temperature for so long, there would have been a different taste in the crust, but there wasnít.  The crumb of this pie was even almost the same.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Pete-zza on October 20, 2010, 12:13:16 PM
Norma,

I think I have tried just about every type of preferment for pizza dough and if I were forced to pick just one for cold fermentation applications such as you have been experimenting with, I think I would pick a poolish. It works the fastest (because of its higher hydration than other preferments) and it is easier to spot the break point. The poolish also produces good amounts of acid without overly impacting the extensibility of the dough. If I were to make an entirely room-temperature fermented dough, then it is quite likely that I would go with a stiffer starter/preferment along the lines discussed by Marco and other members.

As you become more proficient in the use of natural starters/preferments and feel that you understand the basic principles of their use, you might consider other forms and protocols. It is hard to know which ones to pick and how to devise an appropriate fermentation protocol because they would have to be usable within the constraints imposed by the rules you have to follow at market. Also, I think that there would have to be a significant advantage in using them over what you have been using most recently. Unfortunately, you will always be having to contend with temperature variations over the course of the year and devising methods to allow you to make functioning dough balls despite those variations.

Where do you think you will go next?

I plan to go back to the posts in this thread since you have been posting pH values to see if anything jumps out at me in the way of patterns that might be helpful to detect and use pro-actively in making your naturally leavened Lehmann doughs. If I see anything, I will let you know.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on October 20, 2010, 12:51:21 PM
Peter,

Since I have tried some different protocols and forms of using the Ischia starter in my formulas and saw that the pizza really didnít improve on taste or appearance, I think there would have to be a significant advantage to using one form or another, even if I didnít have the time and temperature restraints I have at market.

I know I need more experience with natural starters/preferments and also need to understand the basic principles of their use. 

Honestly, I donít know where I am going next.  Although using the Ischia starter poolish and the other forms I used did take the pizza a step above the preferment Lehmann dough, I donít know if the added taste of the crust is enough to try and make this kind of pizza at market.  The taste is better to me, but I am not sure if customers would be able to tell the difference.

Thanks for your help.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Pete-zza on October 20, 2010, 03:34:03 PM
Norma,

I did go back to the earlier posts to examine the pH values more closely. The main post that I studied was Reply 258 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11700.msg113762.html#msg113762. The worksheet in that post shows that your pH values were pretty much consistent and within the typical range even though the fermentation protocols were not identical. What I found interesting is that your pH readings had starting and final values that seemed to conform to the lower graph under the section "Acidification" at http://www.theartisan.net/The_Artisan_Yeast_Treatise_Section_Two.htm#Fermentation%20Control. In that case, which is based on Prof. Calvel's work, the test dough was commercially leavened (2% fresh yeast) and allowed to ferment at a temperature of 29.5 degrees C (85.1 degrees F) for 24 hours. The starting pH was 5.70 and the final pH was 4.70. Of course, you used a three-stage fermentation protocol so your results will not be directly comparable but it at least looks like your pH values were in the ballpark.

The oddest pH value that I noted was in the worksheet at Reply 264 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11700.msg113856.html#msg113856. The anomaly in that worksheet is the rise in the value of pH of the two doughs after the two dough balls were made. I don't know what to make of that.

Have you given any thought to making a five dough ball batch to see if it will fit within the timeframe and constraints of your market situation? Such a test might tell you if it is worth pursuing a naturally leavened dough for market purposes should you decide at some future point to revisit the matter.

Thank you for posting all of the pH values. I think we at least added to our knowledge on the role that pH plays in naturally leavened doughs. So, if someone stops me on the street and asks me to tell them what a typical range of pH values is for a naturally leavened dough, I will be able to tell them in a New York second  :-D.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on October 20, 2010, 08:33:10 PM
Norma,

I did go back to the earlier posts to examine the pH values more closely. The main post that I studied was Reply 258 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11700.msg113762.html#msg113762. The worksheet in that post shows that your pH values were pretty much consistent and within the typical range even though the fermentation protocols were not identical. What I found interesting is that your pH readings had starting and final values that seemed to conform to the lower graph under the section "Acidification" at http://www.theartisan.net/The_Artisan_Yeast_Treatise_Section_Two.htm#Fermentation%20Control. In that case, which is based on Prof. Calvel's work, the test dough was commercially leavened (2% fresh yeast) and allowed to ferment at a temperature of 29.5 degrees C (85.1 degrees F) for 24 hours. The starting pH was 5.70 and the final pH was 4.70. Of course, you used a three-stage fermentation protocol so your results will not be directly comparable but it at least looks like your pH values were in the ballpark.

The oddest pH value that I noted was in the worksheet at Reply 264 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11700.msg113856.html#msg113856. The anomaly in that worksheet is the rise in the value of pH of the two doughs after the two dough balls were made. I don't know what to make of that.

Have you given any thought to making a five dough ball batch to see if it will fit within the timeframe and constraints of your market situation? Such a test might tell you if it is worth pursuing a naturally leavened dough for market purposes should you decide at some future point to revisit the matter.

Thank you for posting all of the pH values. I think we at least added to our knowledge on the role that pH plays in naturally leavened doughs. So, if someone stops me on the street and asks me to tell them what a typical range of pH values is for a naturally leavened dough, I will be able to tell them in a New York second  :-D.

Peter

Peter,

Good to see that when you examined the pH values more closely in the main post at Reply 258 that I was in the ballpark for Professor Calvelís work on commercially leavened dough with fresh yeast for 24 hours.  At least this experiment has given me some knowledge about the 3 part fermentation process and seeing I could succeed with it.  The oddest pH values were from when I let the biga/mixture starter, that I had left sit out at room temperature for a few days, then made the dough with that mixture/starter.  I donít know about those numbers and then the rising pH, but think it was from the mixture being left out for so long and adding the flour and somehow the numbers came up, from the flouring feeding the mixture/starter in the dough.  I may not be correct on this, but this is just my thinking. I used only 5% of the starter in that mixture dough. When I then made this latest dough with the mixture/starter, I think the mixture/starter was starting to play out, from it sitting so long at room temperature.  I didnít feed the starter/mixture after Tuesday.

I have been thinking about trying a 5 dough ball batch at market, to see if it would fit into the timeframe and temperature constraints at market.  As you know I am always searching for something different to try in a dough to see what tastes would be in the crust.  I think my next experiment before I go about a 5 dough ball batch will be to try Kefir in a dough to see what will happen with that.  I am going to get a live Kefir culture next week and am looking forward to playing around with it.  I have looked on the web about Kefir cultures and making sourdough bread with them.  I have been looking about making pizzas with a Kefir culture.  I havenít seen too many people that have experimented with using a Kefir culture in a pizza dough, but I am willing to give that a go, to see what happens. I see that you can make bread with Kefir cultures.  Kefir seems to be a natural way to leaven the dough, but I think you need much larger quantities to leaven a dough.  I am also anxious to try out Kefir in drinks.  I really like yogurt, so I might find a new drink I like, too.  From what I have read you can then get Kefir crystals from making Kefir.  By letting the Kefir sit out at room temperatures you can determine how sour you want the culture to become.

LOL Peter, I just wonder who is going to stop you on the street to ask you about the pH values for a naturally leavened dough.  :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on October 20, 2010, 09:28:44 PM
Peter,

I just had one other question to ask you.  Since you know so much about making pizza with a preferments, did you ever hear of anyone using a Kefir culture to leaven a dough naturally?  I had forget to ask you that in my last post.  Since Kefir is made with milk, I could see the milk and the active culture could give pizza crust a sourdough taste if it would work.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: Pete-zza on October 20, 2010, 09:56:47 PM
I just had one other question to ask you.  Since you know so much about making pizza with a preferments, did you ever hear of anyone using a Kefir culture to leaven a dough naturally?  I had forget to ask you that in my last post.  Since Kefir is made with milk, I could see the milk and the active culture could give pizza crust a sourdough taste if it would work.

Norma,

No, I have never heard of using Kefir in bread or pizza dough although I have seen Kefir in the supermarket from time to time and know that it is a cultured milk product like yogurt. I have seen the use of yogurt in naan so it would not come as a surprise to see that Kefir can also be used in dough products. However, Kefir is not a product that is considered to be a preferment. It might be closer to the wadave milk-based mixture that you experimented with a while back.

I look forward to your results. I assume that you will be using the Lehmann NY style dough formulation. If you can determine what a Kefir mixture constitutes when used in a dough, maybe I can help you with the formulation if you need help with the numbers.

Peter
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on October 20, 2010, 10:15:28 PM
Norma,

No, I have never heard of using Kefir in bread or pizza dough although I have seen Kefir in the supermarket from time to time and know that it is a cultured milk product like yogurt. I have seen the use of yogurt in naan so it would not come as a surprise to see that Kefir can also be used in dough products. However, Kefir is not a product that is considered to be a preferment. It might be closer to the wadave milk-based mixture that you experimented with a while back.

I look forward to your results. I assume that you will be using the Lehmann NY style dough formulation. If you can determine what a Kefir mixture constitutes when used in a dough, maybe I can help you with the formulation if you need help with the numbers.

Peter

A few links about Kefir

http://www.torontoadvisors.com/Kefir/article2_Kris.htm

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cookbook:Kefir

http://editor.nourishedmagazine.com.au/articles/how-to-make-sourdough-bread-and-cake

http://just-making-noise.blogspot.com/2009/04/kefir-sourdough-pizza.html


Peter,

You can buy live cultures or grains of Kefir.  Thatís interesting that you think Kefir isnít a preferment and think it might be closer to wasdaveís milk-based mixture that I experimented with.

I will be using the Lehmann dough NY style dough formulation.  I think by reading different things on the web about Kefir, you need to add about 1 cup of Kefir to a batch of bread or maybe even pizza.  I am not sure of that because there isnít a lot about using the live culture after it is bubbling and active.  I might be asking for your help in determining how to figure out a formulation for the Lehmann dough with Kefir.  I will start a new thread after I get the live culture. 

Thanks for all of your help in my experiments.

Norma
Title: Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
Post by: norma427 on October 21, 2010, 09:45:47 AM
If anyone also is interested in trying out kefir in pizza or watching videos about using kefir in a sourdough bread these are two videos about using kefir in sourdough bread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2it3zxpKKI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnVR_GPRrkI

Kefir looks like it might be promising to make pizza, but time will tell.  ::)

If the experiments don't work using kefir, then I will go back to more experiments with the Ischia starter and a 3 part fermentation process to see if something might work out at market.

Norma