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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #80 on: September 12, 2010, 03:28:58 PM »
I have the book but was wondering on which page you found the instructions. There are several instructions for starters, etc.

Mike,

It is The Basic Loaf: Country White, which is a two-day bread recipe, at pages 40-55.

Peter


Offline Essen1

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #81 on: September 12, 2010, 03:33:55 PM »
Cool.

Thanks, Peter.
Mike

ďAll styles of pizza are valid. I make the best Iím capable of; you should make the best youíre capable of. I donít want to make somebody elseís pizza.Ē ~ Chris Bianco

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #82 on: September 12, 2010, 03:44:31 PM »
Peter,

I hope I'm not hijacking Norma's thread but on Page 53, first sentence, Silverton mentions that doughs that contain olive oil don't rise as much during the bake.

Could that be a contributing factor occasionally when it comes to a lack of oven spring in pizza doughs containing olive oil? Would make sense, no?
« Last Edit: September 12, 2010, 03:50:36 PM by Essen1 »
Mike

ďAll styles of pizza are valid. I make the best Iím capable of; you should make the best youíre capable of. I donít want to make somebody elseís pizza.Ē ~ Chris Bianco

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #83 on: September 12, 2010, 04:11:51 PM »
Mike,

That's a good question. It seemed to me that I read something by Tom Lehmann over at the PMQ Think Tank that oil helped with volume expansion but I couldn't come up with keywords specific enough to lead me to the post where he discussed this subject and to confirm what I thought he said. However, I am not sure that 1% oil that Norma normally uses with her Lehmann NY style doughs is enough to have a material effect on dough expansion during baking. The only effect that I recall Tom Lehmann attributing to oil used in his Lehmann NY style formulation was flavor. You will also note that in the dough formulation that Norma posted earlier in this thread at Reply 75 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11700.msg109752.html#msg109752, she did not use any oil at all. I don't know if that was intentional but the oil won't be a factor in her experiment although she might be able to comment on the effect of its omission.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 12, 2010, 04:15:19 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #84 on: September 12, 2010, 04:40:24 PM »
Peter,

I knew that formula was for making bread and not pizza, but wanted to do the experiment to see how much difference there is in making a formula for bread or pizza dough.  When I tried the bread out of the same starter dough formula at had used to make pizza at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11700.msg108948.html#msg108948 it made me wonder more about making pizza and bread out of the same dough when using starters.  The same dough did seem to work out for both pizza and bread, although I am not that experienced in making bread.  I thought I would do the experiment with what information you gave me on Nancy Silvertonís bread formula.  I see now I didnít follow all the instructions for making the bread.  I had fed my Ischia starter on Thursday and twice on Friday before I made this dough ball.  The Ischia starter after the second feeding on Friday did bubble very much in two hours after the second feed.  I thought the starter was very active then, so that is when I made the dough.  The finished dough temperature was 75 degrees F.  I can understand that having a bigger batch of dough might speed along the fermentation process. 

Thanks for your thoughts on this dough.  To answer Mikeís one question about not using oil in this pizza dough, I had just wanted  to use the Ischia starter with no oil in this experiment to see what kind of results I would get. 

Norma

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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #85 on: September 12, 2010, 04:47:04 PM »
Peter,

I hope I'm not hijacking Norma's thread but on Page 53, first sentence, Silverton mentions that doughs that contain olive oil don't rise as much during the bake.

Could that be a contributing factor occasionally when it comes to a lack of oven spring in pizza doughs containing olive oil? Would make sense, no?

Mike,

I never read anywhere that oil might affect the rise of dough, but I can always learn something new.  I don't have any problems with my regular preferment dough and oven spring when I bake that into a pizza, with oil added.  Will be interesting to see what happens with this dough.

Norma

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #86 on: September 12, 2010, 11:06:05 PM »
Norma & Peter,

I wasn't so much talking about Norma's dough per se, just posted that question in general since I've seen a few posts with an olive oil content above one percent from members who did have problems with oven spring and thought it could be related.

Me, unfortunately, included.  :(
Mike

ďAll styles of pizza are valid. I make the best Iím capable of; you should make the best youíre capable of. I donít want to make somebody elseís pizza.Ē ~ Chris Bianco

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #87 on: September 13, 2010, 12:28:10 AM »
Mike,

I have tried pizzas will higher oil amounts and didnít see problems with oven spring, but I am not sure if oil has anything to do with oven spring.  This is a formula I tried out with higher amounts of oil. At that time, my dough management skills werenít the best, but here is the link to the formula I used.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg75889.html#msg75889   

This is the link to where the finished pies were posted.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg76149.html#msg76149

I have tried not using oil in my preferment Lehmann dough by accident and could have added the oil, but experimented with it without oil.  I found the crust on that dough without oil didnít turn out well and I had to throw out the whole batch.  I have done a fair amount of experiments on different doughs with different amounts of oil and so far what I have learned is dough management, dough formula, fermentation times, amounts of yeasts, starters, oven temperatures, oven set-ups, opening techniques, finished dough temperature, flour type, salt types and so much more all come into play in oven spring.  I donít know if I will ever be able to figure all this out either.  :-\  Just one variable can change a pizza in my opinion. 

Right now it seems to me that dough without oil needs higher bake temperatures, but I will keep experimenting to find out if this is true.

Norma

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #88 on: September 13, 2010, 10:10:29 AM »
I attempted to discuss the effects of oil quantity on finished rim size, also in the context of the Papa John's clone doughs, at Reply 11 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58438.html#msg58438 (in response to a question posed by member Buffalo). As I noted there, and as Randy has noted elsewhere on this forum in relation to his PJ clones, using a higher hydration (better than 60%) seems to yield a larger rim size.

Subsequently, and perhaps more relevant to Norma's experiments in this thread, I made a natural preferment (Ischia) version of a PJ clone dough, as discussed in Reply 38 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg60892.html#msg60892. In that case, I was intentionally trying to keep the rim size small but at least the experiment showed that it was possible to use a large amount of oil in a naturally leavened dough. I suspect that had I not tried to keep the rim size small, the rim might still have remained small because the total formula hydration was only 56%. Norma might also note that I used the Ischia preferment at 25% of the total formula flour weight, which is not much less than she used for the last experiment. She will also see how a culture/preferment that is not quite ready for prime time can affect the way a dough ferments and the duration of fermentation.

To the above, I should also note that the last PJ pizza I purchased from Papa John's had a larger rim size than normal. However, in that case, the store was being slammed with orders and, in anticipation of that situation, the workers had pre-made a few dozen undressed skins and let them sit in trays awaiting orders. As the skins sat, they proofed and developed large rims. As a result, my baked pizza had a larger than normal rim. So, as Norma noted, there can be many factors that influence oven spring and final rim size.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #89 on: September 14, 2010, 06:21:27 AM »
Peter,

Thanks for referencing that link where you used an Ischia preferment at 25% of the total formula flour weight for a PJ clone dough.  I never saw that post before.  I see your dough didnít expand that much in 4 Ĺ days and you let the dough sit at room temperature to help the dough ferment better.  My dough ball smells good, but hasnít fermented like the other doughs that I have made in the past with the Ischia preferment. It has been cold fermenting for about 4 days.  I will see how the bake goes later on today.  I also noted that you did get a flavor profile of a naturally-leavened dough that has been fermented for a long while.  Your pizza looked very tasty.  :)  The dough has a very yeasty beer smell.  I will see if I have to let the dough sit out at room temperature for a longer while today. 

As this dough with the Ischia starter doesnít have any oil added, I will see if my deck oven can do a decent job of baking this pie.  I still have my doubts about baking a dough without oil in the temperatures my deck oven are normally.   :-\

Pictures below,

Norma

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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #90 on: September 14, 2010, 09:38:47 PM »
I used the dough ball with the Ischia starter to make a pizza today.  When I removed the dough ball from the deli case, this afternoon, it had formed a bubble on the top of the dough ball.  I only let it warm-up for an hour.  The dough ball was easy to open. I didnít think this formula would produce a brown crust without oil in the dough, in the temperatures I use to bake in the deck oven. 

I am going to do this same experiment, with the same formula, but add oil in the next experiment.  As can be seen on these pictures, the crust didnít get brown, but the rim did have some oven spring. 

Pictures below

Norma   

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #91 on: September 14, 2010, 09:40:21 PM »
more pictures

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #92 on: September 14, 2010, 09:41:23 PM »
end of pictures

Norma

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #93 on: September 14, 2010, 09:56:43 PM »
Norma,

Apart from the crust coloration issue, how did the pizza and crust taste, and do you have any other observations of note?

Peter

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #94 on: September 14, 2010, 10:15:13 PM »
Norma,

Apart from the crust coloration issue, how did the pizza and crust taste, and do you have any other observations of note?

Peter

Peter,

The crust tasted good and I could taste that a preferment was used, but the crust wasnít exceptional, in terms of the taste.  I donít know if adding oil will contribute to the taste of the crust or not, but believe it could help the coloration issues. The crust was crunchy, when it was cut.  The extra salt didnít seem to make any difference in the taste of this crust.  I enjoyed this pizza, but think it could get much better, but I am not sure what to try next.  I also donít know if the dough could have lasted another day.  This morning there wasnít any bubble on the dough ball and by this afternoon, a bubble had appeared.  The rim was moist, but I think I could have taken the pizza out of the oven sooner, but I wanted to see if it would brown more.  I was satisfied with how much oven spring this pizza had, although it didnít get as much oven spring as my regular preferment Lehmann dough.

Do you have any ideas of what I could try in my next experiment? 

Norma

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #95 on: September 15, 2010, 10:25:47 AM »
Norma,

I do not believe that using oil in the last dough formulation will materially improve the browning of the crust, especially if you are thinking of using 1% oil as you have been doing with your various Lehmann doughs. When I think of oil in the context of pizza dough, I view it from two angles--the oil in the dough itself and oil on the surface of the dough. A main purpose of the oil in the dough is to hold moisture, which might result in improved oven spring (which we discussed earlier in this thread), and also to provide flavor in the finished crust. The degree of these effects, including textural effects on the finished crumb, will depend on the amount of oil used. The oil on the dough can contribute to crust coloration because of its good heat transfer characteristics. That is one reason why some people will brush the rim of an unbaked pizza to get more color, or they will liberally coat a pizza pan to essentially "fry" the bottom crust to get increased color. I might mention that I had an exchange some time ago with Tom Lehmann on the effect of a small amount of oil in the NY style dough, and his only answer was flavor. He never mentioned crust color. Also, when I experimented with emergency versions of the Papa John's clone doughs, I found it necessary to use honey in the dough to get good crust coloration, despite the fact that the dough had over 7% oil. If oil in the dough can materially affect the crust coloration, then 7% oil should have done the trick.

You can read a bit more on the subject of oil in the last paragraph of Reply 24 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7761.msg67196/topicseen.html#msg67196.

I think that what happened with your most recent dough is that it was low on residual sugar, most likely because of overfermentation or near overfermentation of the dough. If I am correct on this, I would assign the blame on the use of too much poolish. Just as using a large amount of commercial yeast in a dough fermented for several days can lead to sugar exhaustion (depletion), the same thing can happen when using large amounts of natural preferments. The result is low residual sugar levels, low pH values and a less than optimal relationship between pH and residual sugar levels, reduced oven spring, and reduced Maillard reactions that contribute to crust browning. The poolish itself, due to its high hydration value (100%), will accelerates the fermentation of the dough, and is harder than lower hydration preferments on sugar depletion. The condition and state of readiness of the culture (the Ischia culture in your case), along with fermentation temperature, can also have an effect on the factors mentioned above, and particularly the timing (e.g., the duration of the fermentation of the dough). Of course, the main advantage of using a natural poolish over commercial yeast is that you end up with a crust with a more complex flavor profile.

I realize that you were conducting an experiment and wanted to see how the Silverton bread dough making methods might work out in your work setting but I think the solution is to use less poolish and try to adapt its use to the timeframe within which you need to work to offer a naturally-leavened Lehmann product at market. If you can get your Ischia culture to a highly active condition, I think I would use about 15% poolish (by weight of the total formula flour) for your next experiment, and use a sequence of room temperature fermentation, cold fermentation, and final warm-up before using. Its been a long time since I have worked with natural cultures, which has made me rusty on their use, but maybe other members who work actively with such cultures can help you with the timing aspects of the experiment. My recollection is that you laid out your market timelines at Reply 57 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11700.msg108808.html#msg108808. As previously noted, it may take some effort to try to offer a viable commercial product on one day a week when using a natural culture that has to be maintained the other six days. If you made pizzas every day, or nearly every day, I am sure the task would be much simpler.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #96 on: September 15, 2010, 10:57:33 AM »
Peter,

Thank you for going what could give me better crust coloration and a more complex flavor in a Ishcia preferment dough.  Since I didnít use any oil to coat this dough ball, I understand this might be something else I could try. 

I also believe my recent dough was low on residual sugar, as I saw the bubble did form, while it was still in the deli case.  The only thing about that dough ball that still is a mystery to me is that it didnít show signs of being overfermented when I opened the dough ball. 

I can see that I also need to study more and watch when my Ischia starter is at its peak performance.

I will take your recommendation and use 15 % poolish, by the weight of the total formula flour in figuring out another attempt at this experiment.  I am also not sure how much oil to use in figuring out the formula, but will probably go with !%.  I will also oil the dough ball this time. 

I can understand that even with many experiments this approach might not work out for market, since I only make pizzas one day a week.  At least it will give me more experience with starters and finding out how finicky they are.  I also can learn more about Ischia doughs, bulk fermenting and whatever else goes into making dough with this starter. 

Your recollection is right about the link to my market timelines. 

Thanks,

Norma

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #97 on: September 15, 2010, 11:40:05 AM »
The only thing about that dough ball that still is a mystery to me is that it didnít show signs of being overfermented when I opened the dough ball. 

Norma,

I noted that and also wondered why you didn't see more obvious signs of overfermentation or near overfermentation. However, when I went back to your dough formulation at Reply 75 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11700.msg109752.html#msg109752, I saw that you used 2.2% salt. I can't say for sure, but maybe that value of salt was high enough to impede the performance of protease enzymes in the flour that, under normal conditions, act to attack the gluten structure and weaken it. If there is sufficient gluten destruction, the dough can be slack, wet and hard to open up in the usual manner. The level of salt you used might also have had an initial effect of strengthening the gluten structure, thereby reducing the subsequent activity of the protease enzymes. I discussed these effects of salt, and other effects as well, including the effect of salt on the fermentation process, at Reply 26 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.msg13425/topicseen.html#msg13425.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #98 on: September 15, 2010, 01:31:10 PM »
Peter,

Thank you for referencing that link.  I had also wondered about the salt amount and how it could affect that dough ball.  I had mixed the poolish Ischia preferment in with the water, put that mixture into the Kitchen Aid mixer, then mixed the real sea salt into the flour with a fork, before I placed the flour into the Kitchen Aid mixer.  I did sift the flour first. My thinking was if I mixed the salt into the flour it shouldnít affect the preferment with the water. The real sea salt is really fine and I still have no idea if this kind of salt will act differently than a regular Kosher salt in a dough. I really donít know if other members have tried this kind of salt in a dough before.  At least I havenít ever read a post about using real sea salt.   This also was my first attempt to use a Kitchen Aid mixer, so I had also wondered how that variable might change my results, instead of hand mixing, which I usually do at home.  I try to think of each new variable I might use in making any dough. 

This dough seemed higher in hydration than 60.9 % when it was finished mixing, before the bulk ferment.  After reading the article you referenced it still confuses me more on what happened with that dough ball.  If all the conditions have to be right for a dough to be optional in performance and not overferment with using a preferment, I can understand using something like the Ischia starter will be more difficult to understand.  The higher levels of salt and the kind of salt I used might have an effect on the protease enzymes in the dough.  It will be hard to understand just when all this factors come into play and if any of these variables will change the results. 

I will try to make another dough on Friday and see what kind of results I can achieve.  As I posted before that dough ball opened so well and showed no other signs of overfermentaion other than the bubble on the top of the dough ball.   I could have opened that dough ball much bigger than 12".  I took the tape measure and measured the opened skin, so it would be 12".  I did have other doughs that I made that did show signs of overfermentation when trying to open the dough, so at least I do understand some, what to look for.

There is always a mystery with any dough.

Norma

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #99 on: September 15, 2010, 03:07:21 PM »
Norma,

I believe that I first became aware of the Real Salt sea salt from member Les' post at Reply 17 at
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1531.msg14386/topicseen.html#msg14386. Another member who also was fond of the Real Salt sea salt was Sour_Jax (Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1579.msg14467/topicseen.html#msg14467). I tried the Real Salt sea salt until I ran out. After that, I tried other sea salts. I now use a ground up form of Baleine coarse sea crystals from France. Sea salts have mineral and other nutrients that are good for yeast. However, I have also tried the Morton's Kosher salt and various brands of table salt (the kind that are packaged in tube-shape containers) and can't say that I notice major differences. However, I prefer to avoid the brands of table salt that contain all kinds of additives and chemicals. I am told that the best brand of Kosher salt is the Diamond Crystal salt. However, it is not sold anywhere near where I live.

The dough calculating tools do not distinguish between regular and sea salts. Different sea salts have different amounts of sodium and different mineral compositions but there are far too many sea salts to be able to find a way of differentiating them from regular salt for purposes of the dough calculating tools.

Unless your poolish was not exactly 50/50 flour/water, it is possible that the total hydration was higher than stated in the dough formulation you posted. That might have accounted for what appeared to you to be a more highly hydrated dough.

Working with natural cultures and preferments can be challenging, because of all the factors involved. I think you can now see why bakers welcomed the invention of commercial yeasts, even at the loss of some of the artisanal qualities of their breads that they made before commercial yeasts became available to them.

Peter

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