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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #100 on: September 15, 2010, 04:49:16 PM »
Peter,

Thanks for finding those links for Edmonds real salt from Les and Sour_Jax. Les was also on to something other than his great sauce recipe. I use real salt, but have other salts as well.  I usually just use Mediterranean Sea Salt in my cooking and to flavor my foods.  I never heard of Baleine coarse sea crystals from France.  I also havenít found Diamond Crystal Salt in my area, but havenít looked to hard.  I donít try to salt my foods to much, but try not to use ordinary table salt.
 
I know the dough calculating tools canít distinguish between regular and sea salts.  That would create another mess, in trying to figure out dough formulations.

I have been weighing what I put into my starters, for a poolish, but canít be sure the hydrations numbers arenít off.  When I used the Ischia starter, it did look like the poolish I make at market.  Our weather is cooler in our area and also drier, with a lot less humidity.  That is also another variable to think about with the hydration of making a dough.  When I do the final mix at market for my preferment Lehmann dough, with the humidity higher and also with the fans running, it can make a difference in my final dough and how it feels.  I have learned to add a little more water or less to compensate.  I might need to learn to adjust this dough too, if I can ever get this dough figured out.  I can see how challenging it is going to be to see if this would ever work out at market.  At least for now, I am very well satisfied what I can make out of the preferment Lehmann dough.  I can see why bakers welcomed commercial yeast.  I have always strived for a more artisan pizza and dough, so I will see if this will lead me anywhere or not.

I will start feeding the Ischia starter tomorrow and see what happens until Friday. 

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #101 on: September 16, 2010, 11:56:41 AM »
I removed the Ischia starter from the fridge this morning and fed it equal amounts of water and flour.  Will see how many feedings it takes to become active.

Picture below

Norma

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #102 on: September 17, 2010, 01:17:15 PM »
It seemed to me that I read something by Tom Lehmann over at the PMQ Think Tank that oil helped with volume expansion but I couldn't come up with keywords specific enough to lead me to the post where he discussed this subject and to confirm what I thought he said.

Today, while I was looking for something else, I stumbled upon the Tom Lehmann post at the PMQ Think Tank that I was looking for. It is toward the end of the post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6175&p=40137&hilit=#p40142.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #103 on: September 17, 2010, 01:44:13 PM »
Peter,

Thanks for finding Tom Lehmannís post about oil in dough.  That was an interesting read.  When I try to search for something on PMQ think tank, I have so many problems going though all the posts and finding what I want.

I did feed my Ischia starter two times yesterday and then put it in the fridge overnight.  I pulled it out of the fridge this morning and fed it again.  I am going to feed it again, to make sure it is ready for a dough later today. 

Picture below of starter after 2 Ĺ hr.  Hopefully when I try to make this dough with oil, it will give me different results than my last dough.

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #104 on: September 18, 2010, 06:03:56 PM »
Next attempt for Ischia starter dough.  This time I did add oil to the formula and also oiled the dough ball. 

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):                273.98 g  |  9.66 oz | 0.6 lbs
Water (60.9%):                166.85 g  |  5.89 oz | 0.37 lbs
Salt (2.2%):                     6.03 g | 0.21 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.08 tsp | 0.36 tbsp
Oil (1%):                             2.74 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.61 tsp | 0.2 tbsp
Total (164.1%):                  449.6 g | 15.86 oz | 0.99 lbs | TF = 0.103022

Preferment:
Flour:                         20.55 g | 0.72 oz | 0.05 lbs
Water:                         20.55 g | 0.72 oz | 0.05 lbs
Total:                           41.1 g | 1.45 oz | 0.09 lbs

Final Dough:
Flour:                         253.43 g | 8.94 oz | 0.56 lbs
Water:                       146.31 g | 5.16 oz | 0.32 lbs
Salt:                                   6.03 g | 0.21 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.08 tsp | 0.36 tbsp
Preferment:                         41.1 g | 1.45 oz | 0.09 lbs
Oil:                                   2.74 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.61 tsp | 0.2 tbsp
Total:                          449.6 g | 15.86 oz | 0.99 lbs  | TF = 0.103022

I also did use my Kitchen Aid Mixer to mix this dough.

Video of Kitchen Aid almost finished mixing the dough.  Dough was 75 degrees F and left for 5 hours to bulk ferment before balling.



Picture of dough ball with poppy seeds placed 1" apart.

Norma

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Offline StrayBullet

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #105 on: September 19, 2010, 02:47:13 PM »
Some great reading here, especially for anyone wanting to start down this path!  How'd this one turn out?

Sorry for the stupid question...am I correct in assuming that you scooped 41g of starter out of the above pictured container (in front of computer) and mixed the remaining ingredients to make the final dough?  Thanks!

Mark

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #106 on: September 19, 2010, 03:32:15 PM »
Some great reading here, especially for anyone wanting to start down this path!  How'd this one turn out?

Sorry for the stupid question...am I correct in assuming that you scooped 41g of starter out of the above pictured container (in front of computer) and mixed the remaining ingredients to make the final dough?  Thanks!

Mark

Mark,

I am also really only starting to learn about starters.  That is why I try to document as much as I can, so if something works out for me, then at least other people will be able to see what I did. 

This dough ball in going to be left to cold ferment until Tuesday, if it makes it that long.  It will then be made into a pizza.  I am watching the poppy seeds to see how far they move apart.  That can tell how much the dough is fermenting. 

It isnít a stupid question to ask about how I measured the starter.  You are right that I scooped and the starter out of the container, that was in front of the computer.  I did weigh how much starter I put in this formula.  It was 41.1 grams or rounded off to 41 grams. 

If you have any other questions..just ask.

Norma

Offline Matthew

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #107 on: September 19, 2010, 05:06:21 PM »
Norma,
The amount of starter that you are using is quite a bit so it will be ready fairly quickly; providing that you have a vigorous starter.  This value is more in line with bread baking as oppose to pizza dough.  When it comes to pizza dough; less is more.  Less starter=longer fermentation=better flavor &  lighter texture. 

Matt

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #108 on: September 19, 2010, 05:16:42 PM »
Norma,
The amount of starter that you are using is quite a bit so it will be ready fairly quickly; providing that you have a vigorous starter.  This value is more in line with bread baking as oppose to pizza dough.  When it comes to pizza dough; less is more.  Less starter=longer fermentation=better flavor &  lighter texture. 

Matt

Matt,

I am just learning how to use starters and have only begun to experiment with how they behave when making the dough. I only let this recent dough bulk ferment for 5 hours, before balling and putting it into the refrigerator.  I know Marco only says to use between 1%-5% starter for a pizza dough.  I have no idea how this recent dough will turn out.  My starter was vigorous when I used it for this dough. 

Thanks for your advise when it comes to pizza dough: less is more.  I appreciate you helping me learn.  :)

Norma

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #109 on: September 19, 2010, 06:15:41 PM »
Matt,

Norma's problem is that she has a logistics dilemma. She makes pizza at market only one day of the week, on Tuesday's, and everything has to be done on the premises. She cannot make or start things at home and bring them to market. If she were to use the Ischia starter at market at, say, 5% of the formula water (8.3 grams of the Ischia starter), to abide by the percent that Marco (pizzanapoletana) uses to distinguish pizza dough from bread dough, and then go straight to the deli case/cooler, I don't think that she would get sufficient fermentation by the time she has to use the dough. Or maybe she would have to use an extraordinarily long temper time to get adequate fermentation, which might not be possible if she has to start selling pizzas at around lunchtime. I don't know if Norma can find a way to use only an ambient temperature fermentation scheme, based on using an Ischia starter of up to 5% of the formula water, that would fit within the hours of the market within which Norma is required to operate. You might recall that Marco advocated the use of small quantities of starter (up to 5% of the formula water) for a room temperature fermentation only. Since he was not a believer of using cold fermentation with natural starters and the Caputo flour, he never told us how to use such starters in a cold fermentation scheme.

I think Norma's solution may be a sequence of ambient temperature bulk fermentation/division, cold fermentation, and a temper period. If I am correct on this, this means that Norma may have to give up something in the quality or characteristics of the finished crust and crumb. Until Norma can assess the results, we won't know if what she loses is material or even noticeable by her and her tasters. If Norma is successful with using her Ischia preferment at 15% of the formula flour, with room to spare, then she might be able to scale back the amount of Ischia preferment the next time. Right now, Norma is only trying to figure out if there is a scheme that will fit the window of hours that she has to stay within at market.

Peter

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #110 on: September 19, 2010, 06:22:59 PM »
I'm wondering if Norma could go in, to the market, on Mondays early in the morning to prepare the dough for Tuesday's lunch or isn't she permitted to have access on her days off?

That would give her at least a 24 hr fermentation window, perhaps 36 hrs if she can go in early enough on a Monday. But I don't know if that's possible...

Mike

ďAll styles of pizza are valid. I make the best Iím capable of; you should make the best youíre capable of. I donít want to make somebody elseís pizza.Ē ~ Chris Bianco

Offline Matthew

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #111 on: September 19, 2010, 06:44:43 PM »
Matt,

Norma's problem is that she has a logistics dilemma. She makes pizza at market only one day of the week, on Tuesday's, and everything has to be done on the premises. She cannot make or start things at home and bring them to market.
I think Norma's solution may be a sequence of ambient temperature bulk fermentation/division, cold fermentation, and a temper period. If I am correct on this, this means that Norma may have to give up something in the quality or characteristics of the finished crust and crumb. Until Norma can assess the results, we won't know if what she loses is material or even noticeable by her and her tasters. If Norma is successful with using her Ischia preferment at 15% of the formula flour, with room to spare, then she might be able to scale back the amount of Ischia preferment the next time. Right now, Norma is only trying to figure out if there is a scheme that will fit the window of hours that she has to stay within at market.

Peter


Yes that would be a problem.  What I would do if I was faced with this situation & wanted to use a starter is go with a different starter altogether.  There are other starters available that have much quicker proofing windows.

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #112 on: September 19, 2010, 07:16:00 PM »
Matt,

Norma's problem is that she has a logistics dilemma. She makes pizza at market only one day of the week, on Tuesday's, and everything has to be done on the premises. She cannot make or start things at home and bring them to market. If she were to use the Ischia starter at market at, say, 5% of the formula water (8.3 grams of the Ischia starter), to abide by the percent that Marco (pizzanapoletana) uses to distinguish pizza dough from bread dough, and then go straight to the deli case/cooler, I don't think that she would get sufficient fermentation by the time she has to use the dough. Or maybe she would have to use an extraordinarily long temper time to get adequate fermentation, which might not be possible if she has to start selling pizzas at around lunchtime. I don't know if Norma can find a way to use only an ambient temperature fermentation scheme, based on using an Ischia starter of up to 5% of the formula water, that would fit within the hours of the market within which Norma is required to operate. You might recall that Marco advocated the use of small quantities of starter (up to 5% of the formula water) for a room temperature fermentation only. Since he was not a believer of using cold fermentation with natural starters and the Caputo flour, he never told us how to use such starters in a cold fermentation scheme.

I think Norma's solution may be a sequence of ambient temperature bulk fermentation/division, cold fermentation, and a temper period. If I am correct on this, this means that Norma may have to give up something in the quality or characteristics of the finished crust and crumb. Until Norma can assess the results, we won't know if what she loses is material or even noticeable by her and her tasters. If Norma is successful with using her Ischia preferment at 15% of the formula flour, with room to spare, then she might be able to scale back the amount of Ischia preferment the next time. Right now, Norma is only trying to figure out if there is a scheme that will fit the window of hours that she has to stay within at market.

Peter

Peter,

You are right that I do have a logistics dilemma and donít know what is going to happen with any different methods I might try in using a starter at market.  If I just made this pizza at home, then there wouldnít be all these problems.  You are also right that I might be losing material differences in the taste of this finished crumb and crust.  I donít know if any member on this forum has ever tried the approach I am using, but can see after trying experiments if this might work.  In the end, I think this approach might be too difficult with all the differences in ambient temperatures I am faced with, but at least I will give it a shot.

I also donít know what differences using KASL flour in combination with a starter, instead of using a lower protein flour will have on my results, but since I bake in a lower temperature oven, know I canít use something like Caputo. 

Norma
« Last Edit: September 19, 2010, 07:27:46 PM by norma427 »

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #113 on: September 19, 2010, 07:24:27 PM »
I'm wondering if Norma could go in, to the market, on Mondays early in the morning to prepare the dough for Tuesday's lunch or isn't she permitted to have access on her days off?

That would give her at least a 24 hr fermentation window, perhaps 36 hrs if she can go in early enough on a Monday. But I don't know if that's possible...



Mike,

I can go to market on Monday between 8:00 am to 5:00 pm.  I do go to market on Mondays to do my final mix now for the preferment Lehmann dough.  I am allowed at market any day of the week between the hours I mentioned above.  What is my biggest problem is that market temperatures fluctuate all over the place, from each week to the next.  I can have temperatures between 44 degrees to temperature of 99 degrees.  I do start making pizza around 8:30 am and continue making pizza until about 8:00 pm at night.  Right now my preferment Lehmann dough works out okay with all these variable temperature changes and long hours at market, but can see the many problems with trying to use a starter in the dough.

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #114 on: September 19, 2010, 07:25:56 PM »

Yes that would be a problem.  What I would do if I was faced with this situation & wanted to use a starter is go with a different starter altogether.  There are other starters available that have much quicker proofing windows.

Matt,

What kind of starter would you recommend that could have a much quicker proofing window?

Norma

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #115 on: September 19, 2010, 07:55:12 PM »
Norma,

I have successfully used a similar formulation from the standpoint of percent of preferment (about 15% of the total formula flour) on several occasions, for several different types of dough, so I believe that there is a combination that will work. I just don't know how to format it to fit within your timing window with precision. With perseverance, you may ultimately achieve a Pyrrhic victory with your Ischia preferment, or possibly with some other starter/preferment as Matt has suggested, but the cost may be too high from the standpoint of the value received for the effort expended. That is something that only you will be able to judge. After all, you are not attempting to be like Pete Taylor or Anthony Mangieri trying to targer a high income demographic looking for a highly artisan product to consume with fine wines and beers and with prices to match. So, it is up to you to decide whether to give it the old Milton Hershey try and press on. If you do, we will all learn and benefit from your efforts. At the least, you will force us to think, which is always a good thing.

I have also been thinking recently of the possibility of your using lactic acid as an additive for your basic Lehman dough formulation, even your current preferment Lehmann dough formulation that you have been using at market. I have never tried lactic acid but I see it frequently in faux sourdough breads sold at my local high-end supermarket with a bakery. Also, member Tractor33 (Joe) used lactic acid with apparent success, as he described at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9537.MSG82633.HTML#MSG82633.

Peter


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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #116 on: September 19, 2010, 09:30:23 PM »
Peter,

Itís good to hear that you used a similar formulation with about the same percent of preferment and had success.  :)  I do really like to experiment and see what happens, so maybe something will work out.  I wonít know unless I keep trying, if the cost might be to high.  I also did a lot of experimenting with the preferment Lehmann dough before that worked out okay for me, but I would still like to take my dough and crust to a higher level. 

I also know I will never be like Pete Taylor or Anthony Mangieri or have the kind of business they have.  I am just a small market stand.  I sure am not like Milton Hershey either, but do have some determination.  I am glad I have you and others to help me along the way, in what I might be able to achieve. 

They are interesting thoughts you had on the possibility of using lactic acid in either the basic Lehmann dough or the preferment Lehmann dough.  I had never thought of that before, but remembered Joe and him posting about using lactic acid in his dough and reporting how much better that made the taste of his crust.  I didnít know they used lactic acid in faux sourdough breads.  That would be an interesting experiment to try. 

Thanks for continuing to help to make a better crust.

Norma

Offline Essen1

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #117 on: September 19, 2010, 09:54:48 PM »
Mike,

I can go to market on Monday between 8:00 am to 5:00 pm.  I do go to market on Mondays to do my final mix now for the preferment Lehmann dough.  I am allowed at market any day of the week between the hours I mentioned above.  What is my biggest problem is that market temperatures fluctuate all over the place, from each week to the next.  I can have temperatures between 44 degrees to temperature of 99 degrees.  I do start making pizza around 8:30 am and continue making pizza until about 8:00 pm at night.  Right now my preferment Lehmann dough works out okay with all these variable temperature changes and long hours at market, but can see the many problems with trying to use a starter in the dough.

Norma

I see.

Do you want to use the starter in a same-day dough or a, let's say, 24 hr dough?
Mike

ďAll styles of pizza are valid. I make the best Iím capable of; you should make the best youíre capable of. I donít want to make somebody elseís pizza.Ē ~ Chris Bianco

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #118 on: September 19, 2010, 10:04:07 PM »
I see.

Do you want to use the starter in a same-day dough or a, let's say, 24 hr dough?

Mike,

I couldnít use the starter in a same day dough, because starters are too finicky.  I couldnít be sure my starter would be active enough and then make the dough and have it proofed enough to start at 8:30 am.  It could be a 24 hour dough, but how would you suggest to go about that, when my ambient temperatures are so different?

Norma

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #119 on: September 19, 2010, 10:36:28 PM »
Mike,

I couldnít use the starter in a same day dough, because starters are too finicky.  I couldnít be sure my starter would be active enough and then make the dough and have it proofed enough to start at 8:30 am.  It could be a 24 hour dough, but how would you suggest to go about that, when my ambient temperatures are so different?

Norma

Norma,

Have you considered splitting the starter, meaning leaving one at the market and one at home, just to see how they handle different temp fluctuations?

I'm not sure but I think I saw in one of your pictures a cooler/warmer similar to a ThermoKool MR-138. These little appliances will keep a starter or dough at a controlled temperature. However, I don't know if they are permitted in a commercial setting.

That would be my best bet. What kind of starter are you using? Is it an Ischia or Camaldoli?

Pic below is a Thermokool MR-138
Mike

ďAll styles of pizza are valid. I make the best Iím capable of; you should make the best youíre capable of. I donít want to make somebody elseís pizza.Ē ~ Chris Bianco

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