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Author Topic: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula  (Read 78586 times)

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #220 on: October 05, 2010, 12:26:48 PM »

If your starter is 50/50 then do the following:

Take 245 grams of your current starter & mix in 10 grams of water to bring it to 108% hydration or 52% water, proof & make sure it's fully active.  Then mix in 1 cup of flour.  You can use immediately or refrigerate for future use.  In your case you would use it immediately.  To make more you can double up on the formula.  I know it seems redundant because you're adding water & then flour but my calculations are based on flour as the 100% ingredient.  The thicker the starter the longer it lasts.  I keep my starters pretty thick & as a result they proof really quickly & never develop any hooch.  You'll have to mess around with it at home mimicking your market timelines & conditions to see if it will work for you.  It may not be any better than using a poolish but it may be worth a try.

Norma,

I know of your fondness for math, and maybe Matt can check my numbers, but the percent of water in your current poolish preferment can be expressed as follows:

W/(W + F) = 50%, where W is the weight of water and F is the weight of flour.

In order to determine how much flour to add to the poolish to get the percent of water to 35%, as Matt suggested, the above expression becomes:

W/[(W + F) + x] = 0.35, where "x" is the weight of the flour to be added to the poolish.

Assuming that you measure out 245 grams of your poolish as Matt suggested, with the poolish constituting 122.5 grams of flour and 122.5 grams of water, and solving for "x" in the above expression, we get x = 105 grams of flour that you would have to add to the 245 grams of your poolish. The total weight thus becomes 245 + 105 = 350 grams, and 122.5/350 = 35%. Of course, you would need only a small amount of that to make a single dough ball. In practice, one would make a much larger amount of sponge preferment and feed it with the proper amounts of flour and water to keep the percent of water at 35%.

Peter

Offline Matthew

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #221 on: October 05, 2010, 02:58:17 PM »
Peter,
Looks good to me!  I typically add make about 4 cups worth.

Matt

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #222 on: October 05, 2010, 09:13:04 PM »
It should look like a really dry dough at first.  It is somewhat difficult to mix.  I use a danish dough hook. You can use a wooden spoon & then when it gets to thick, give it a quick hand knead right in the bowl until all the flour has been incorporated.  At that point you can use it or refrigerate it in a container with a tight fitting lid.  It will keep more about 4 weeks.

Matt

Matt,

Thanks for telling me that the sponge starter should look like a really dry dough at first.  That is interesting that the sponge will then keep up to two weeks.

Thanks again for your help,  :)

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #223 on: October 05, 2010, 09:18:05 PM »
Norma,

I know of your fondness for math, and maybe Matt can check my numbers, but the percent of water in your current poolish preferment can be expressed as follows:

W/(W + F) = 50%, where W is the weight of water and F is the weight of flour.

In order to determine how much flour to add to the poolish to get the percent of water to 35%, as Matt suggested, the above expression becomes:

W/[(W + F) + x] = 0.35, where "x" is the weight of the flour to be added to the poolish.

Assuming that you measure out 245 grams of your poolish as Matt suggested, with the poolish constituting 122.5 grams of flour and 122.5 grams of water, and solving for "x" in the above expression, we get x = 105 grams of flour that you would have to add to the 245 grams of your poolish. The total weight thus becomes 245 + 105 = 350 grams, and 122.5/350 = 35%. Of course, you would need only a small amount of that to make a single dough ball. In practice, one would make a much larger amount of sponge preferment and feed it with the proper amounts of flour and water to keep the percent of water at 35%.

Peter

Peter,

You are right about my fondness for math.  I can understand now what I did wrong.  Your explanation makes it much clearer to me how you arrived at what amount of flour I should be adding to make a sponge from the poolish starter.

I will take another attempt at this.

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #224 on: October 05, 2010, 09:26:23 PM »
Steve and I made another pizza today from the dough I made on Friday.  This pizza was better than my last attempt last Tuesday.  I think I left my paper at market where I marked the pH of this dough before the bake.  I know it was over 5.00, but canít remember the exact number.  I will get the pH of this dough ball right before the bake and post it later.

Pictures below,

Norma

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Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #225 on: October 05, 2010, 09:27:47 PM »
more pictures

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #226 on: October 05, 2010, 09:29:06 PM »
more pictures

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #227 on: October 05, 2010, 09:30:42 PM »
end of pictures

Norma

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #228 on: October 05, 2010, 09:46:43 PM »
Norma,

As best I can tell, the latest pizza was based on the same dough formulation you used last week except that the bulk fermentation at room temperature was shorter (2 1/2 hours), you used Morton's Kosher salt instead of sea salt, and you got somewhat higher pH readings for the dough. Did I get that right?

The latest pizza looks good. Can you tell us why you liked this one better than the last one? And did you have any problems making and using the dough that might bear on whether you can use the formulation at market?

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #229 on: October 05, 2010, 10:27:49 PM »
Norma,

As best I can tell, the latest pizza was based on the same dough formulation you used last week except that the bulk fermentation at room temperature was shorter (2 1/2 hours), you used Morton's Kosher salt instead of sea salt, and you got somewhat higher pH readings for the dough. Did I get that right?

The latest pizza looks good. Can you tell us why you liked this one better than the last one? And did you have any problems making and using the dough that might bear on whether you can use the formulation at market?

Peter


Peter,

Yes, I used the same dough formulation that I used last week.  I also used the Mortonís Kosher salt last week.  This dough was bulk fermented for 3 hrs. before being cold fermented for 4 days.  I did get higher pH readings today before the bake.  It makes me wonder since it was cooler when I did the bulk ferment if that is why dough pH had stayed the same for one day and now was higher before the bake today. 

The reasons I like this pizza better today was the crumb was moister than last week and there seemed to be a better taste in the crust. I donít know why that happened. The pizza doesnít look that much different than last week, but I had other standholders taste the pizza and they also liked the crust. I didnít have any problems with making this dough or handling this dough.  I donít know how a bigger batch of dough would behave and can foresee there could be problems with a larger batch of dough.

I will post the pictures of the other pizza we made today, that I messed up on the sponge, when I get the pictures resized.  I donít know what kind of preferment that was, but that dough should have been fermented for a longer period of time.  That pizza tasted a lot more bready in the rim.  That dough was left to bulk ferment for four hours last evening, then cold fermented overnight and then left on the bench for 3 hours today.  The taste of that pizza was good, but not the same as the dough that was cold fermented for 4 days. 

Norma

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #230 on: October 05, 2010, 10:35:01 PM »
It makes me wonder since it was cooler when I did the bulk ferment if that is why dough pH had stayed the same for one day and now was higher before the bake today.

Norma,

That is quite possible. Fermentation is temperature dependent so the lower temperature could have produced pH values that did not drop as fast.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #231 on: October 05, 2010, 10:52:27 PM »
This is the pizza that was baked with the wrong amount of flour for my first attempt at a sponge.   What wonders me about this pizza is after letting it sit on the bench for a longer time, why it got the bubbles in the middle during the bake.  I could tell this dough wasnít fermented for long enough because the crust didnít brown as well and also there was a bready taste in the rim. 

Pictures below

Norma
« Last Edit: October 05, 2010, 10:54:32 PM by norma427 »

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #232 on: October 05, 2010, 10:56:21 PM »
more pictures

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #233 on: October 05, 2010, 10:57:06 PM »
end of pictures

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #234 on: October 06, 2010, 08:16:17 AM »
I had one other comment, that I forgot to post yesterday about this dough made with what was supposed to be a sponge, that I messed up.  I couldnít believe how different that dough was.  I didnít add any more oil to the mix or balling the dough, than I had added to the other dough using a poolish.  When I removed the dough from the container it felt so much softer than the other dough, although the other dough did feel soft.  I even got Steve to feel the dough.  It didnít have the same great smell because it wasnít fermented as long, but this dough was the softest dough I have ever made. Both of these doughs were made in the Kitchen Aid mixer on speed one. I don't think I introduced any other variables except the sponge experiment and protocol for for fermentation. I donít understand why it was so soft, but will see what happens in the next experiment if I get the sponge right. 

Norma

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Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #235 on: October 06, 2010, 10:34:32 AM »
Great rim rise Norm! It's nice to see that again, my rims haven't risen right in months, doesn't matter how long I knead. Might be a bad jar of yeast, who can say, but yours are great looking.

The best I'm getting is a rim that 1/2 bubbles, 1/2 stays flat, like this.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=576.0;attach=25590;image
« Last Edit: October 06, 2010, 10:37:12 AM by NY pizzastriver »
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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #236 on: October 06, 2010, 11:01:45 AM »
This is the pizza that was baked with the wrong amount of flour for my first attempt at a sponge.   What wonders me about this pizza is after letting it sit on the bench for a longer time, why it got the bubbles in the middle during the bake.  I could tell this dough wasnít fermented for long enough because the crust didnít brown as well and also there was a bready taste in the rim. 

Norma,

Without knowing what your dough was actually made of in terms of the preferment, and what impact that might have had on your particular fermentation protocol for this specific dough, it is hard to accurately diagnose the bubbling problem. However, one of the most common causes of bubbling like you mentioned is underfermentation. You were using a natural leavening for your dough but you can read of some of the most common causes of bubbling in a commercially leavened dough at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7362.msg63551/topicseen.html#msg63551.

I'm not sure why you didn't end up with more crust coloration. A lack of sufficient residual sugar can occur with underfermentation (not enough time to release sugars from the flour by enzyme performance or suppression of the enzymes) but it can also occur with overfermentation (depletion of the residual sugars). If you took pH readings at the time the dough was used that might have provided some clues.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #237 on: October 06, 2010, 11:23:59 AM »
Great rim rise Norm! It's nice to see that again, my rims haven't risen right in months, doesn't matter how long I knead. Might be a bad jar of yeast, who can say, but yours are great looking.

The best I'm getting is a rim that 1/2 bubbles, 1/2 stays flat, like this.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=576.0;attach=25590;image

NY pizzastriver,

The rise is partly due to the Ischia starter and longer ferment time.  I am learning how to use starters and find them interesting. 

I wonder why half of your pizzas get bubbles and the other half stays flat.  That doesnít make much sense.  Did you try a new jar of yeast?  Thanks for providing the link to your pizza.   What kind of formula are you currently using for your pizzas?

If you ever want to play around with the Ischia starter, let me know.  When using a starter in making dough, it is intriguing to see what will happen.  Hopefully some day I will be able to understand all complexities of using a starter.  Using the Ischia starter does give a more complex taste to the crust.

Thanks for saying the pizza had good rim rise.  :)

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #238 on: October 06, 2010, 11:39:39 AM »
Norma,

Without knowing what your dough was actually made of in terms of the preferment, and what impact that might have had on your particular fermentation protocol for this specific dough, it is hard to accurately diagnose the bubbling problem. However, one of the most common causes of bubbling like you mentioned is underfermentation. You were using a natural leavening for your dough but you can read of some of the most common causes of bubbling in a commercially leavened dough at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7362.msg63551/topicseen.html#msg63551.

I'm not sure why you didn't end up with more crust coloration. A lack of sufficient residual sugar can occur with underfermentation (not enough time to release sugars from the flour by enzyme performance or suppression of the enzymes) but it can also occur with overfermentation (depletion of the residual sugars). If you took pH readings at the time the dough was used that might have provided some clues.

Peter

Peter,

I had wondered why the bubbles formed in that pizza, while it was in the oven, when I donít usually have problems with that unless the dough is cooler or cold.  I knew that cold dough could be responsible, but knew I had this dough sitting on the bench for a decent amount of time.  Thank you for the link.  I think, but donít know that it must have been due to insufficient dough fermentation since I only used 5% of the sponge messed up starter.  I should have tried to let this dough sit out overnight to see what would happen, but didnít know how it behave and when I finished the dough later in the day on Monday, didnít let it ferment that long at room temperature for the small percent of starter that I used.  I also might have placed this dough ball out earlier in the day.  It probably would have fermented better.

I had wanted to take the pH of this dough, but forgot about it until I placed the pizza in the oven.  By then it was too late.  Maybe pH reading can help me with knowing when the dough is ready.  I will have to watch this over time to see if the pH reading are helpful. 

Norma

Offline NY pizzastriver

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Re: Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula
« Reply #239 on: October 06, 2010, 01:19:32 PM »
Norma, yeah could be a bad jar. That was just a Lehmannn pie, standard, but my Glutenboy's are the same of late too. I hand knead again since mixer broke but frankly I used to get better rim rise hand kneading before the mixer came into play. I'm very anti-mixer now. As to using starters more power to ya! I have enough trouble remembering to water the bonsai, I'd surely kill off a living starter in a week flat! Id just like to find a new flour and yeast to work with, one that doesn't need ''hooch removal'', feeding, draining, etc. Without someone here to tell me ''that starter is ok to use, it won't kill you'' I have nothing to base it on.

Essen 1 mentioned using high wheat gluten additives, as you know no shop here has this. I have used Fleishmann's instant bread machine yeast and KABF forever. As you know there's not much else available in our neck of the woods, never mind finding all trumps high gluten flours, wheat gluten additives, etc.

Peace  8)
"If God said you can come to heaven now, but you have to stop eating my pizza, you'd stay and finish instead, right?" - Essen1

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