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Author Topic: Is the timing critical as to when to crush the dough?  (Read 644 times)

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Offline AtHomePizza

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Is the timing critical as to when to crush the dough?
« on: February 05, 2021, 08:59:10 PM »
Once mixed, can I toss it in the frig overnight and crush it before making the pie?
Or about 1-2 hours after making the dough, crush it then put in the frig?
Does it matter?
If so, when is the optimum time?

Offline wotavidone

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Re: Is the timing critical as to when to crush the dough?
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2021, 02:39:18 AM »
Timing is absolutely critical - the right time to crush dough is never, ever, ever. :-D

Seriously though, what exactly do you mean by "crush" the dough?
Mick

Offline AtHomePizza

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Re: Is the timing critical as to when to crush the dough?
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2021, 02:52:09 AM »
Timing is absolutely critical - the right time to crush dough is never, ever, ever. :-D

Seriously though, what exactly do you mean by "crush" the dough?
Not certain of the technical term.  :P

Here is one example from pizza dough making steps....
Punch down risen dough to release air bubbles.

One time I forgot to do it until I started making the pie.
The 1st half was a battle stretching, but the 2nd half was made about 15 minutes later and was much easier to stretch into a pie.

Offline wotavidone

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Re: Is the timing critical as to when to crush the dough?
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2021, 03:19:35 AM »
Hmmm. Whose recipe is that?
I make the dough, give it about 20 hours to ferment in bulk, then ball it at least a couple hours before I want to use it.
About the only time I'm releasing the gas (unintentionally but sort of unavoidably) is when I'm making it into balls.
When yo divide it and make it into balls, the gluten "tightens" and the pizzas will be easier to stretch as time goes by (and the gluten relaxes again).
« Last Edit: February 06, 2021, 03:30:29 AM by wotavidone »
Mick

Offline AtHomePizza

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Re: Is the timing critical as to when to crush the dough?
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2021, 03:28:23 AM »
Hmmm. Whose recipe is that?
Not one in particular but it is in many if you simply google pizza dough recipes/instructions.

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Offline ARenko

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Re: Is the timing critical as to when to crush the dough?
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2021, 05:22:59 AM »
Not one in particular but it is in many if you simply google pizza dough recipes/instructions.
Stick to searching this site.  Do not punch down pizza dough.

Offline donstavely

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Re: Is the timing critical as to when to crush the dough?
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2021, 10:13:08 AM »
FWIW, in the Pizza Bible, Tony specifically calls for de-gassing his "master class" dough before balling.  Timing-wise, it is on Day 2 after one night of CF in bulk and before one night of CF in balls.  The late great Dough Doctor considers the term "bulk ferment" to be an oxymoron for the home baker, since the dough quantity is so small compared to a commercial operation.  You will find recipes and advice from one extreme to the other: Mix, bulk ferment, then ball and use same day, all the way to mix, ball, and into the fridge for one or more days.   

So does it matter?  Yes, in that folks here have strong opinions on their dough timing.  And no, because folks are able to make great pizza with very different fermentation schedules. 

I have found this to be the power as well as the frustration of a forum like this.  I am constantly mining for insight among all the conflicting advice.  BTW, I note the irony of my own post here, conflicting with the preceding "never de-gas" advice.  >:D


 

Offline jsaras

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Re: Is the timing critical as to when to crush the dough?
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2021, 10:32:46 AM »
I’ve never punched down a dough ball in my life
Things have never been more like today than they are right now.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Is the timing critical as to when to crush the dough?
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2021, 11:21:26 AM »
I have found this to be the power as well as the frustration of a forum like this.  I am constantly mining for insight among all the conflicting advice.  BTW, I note the irony of my own post here, conflicting with the preceding "never de-gas" advice.  >:D

The reality is that there is more than one way to skin a cat. Multiple rises is a bread making technique, and I'm not shy about saying that "pizza is not bread," but I do secretly acknowledge that lots of great pizza is made with multiple rises, reballing, etc. (that being said, I wouldn't teach someone to do it that way). At the end of the day, you have to try different methods and see what works best for you as it may be very different from what works for someone else. There are lots and lots of variable that go into pizza making, some of them very difficult to identify, much less control.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Is the timing critical as to when to crush the dough?
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2021, 11:24:37 AM »
FWIW, in the Pizza Bible, Tony specifically calls for de-gassing his "master class" dough before balling.  Timing-wise, it is on Day 2 after one night of CF in bulk and before one night of CF in balls.  The late great Dough Doctor considers the term "bulk ferment" to be an oxymoron for the home baker, since the dough quantity is so small compared to a commercial operation.

There are different reasons to bulk ferment. In the context I think the Doc was referring to, it's about storage space. Bulk takes a lot less space than balls. TG may have been referring to it as a fermentation technique such as multiple rises in breadmaking. I use it as a technique when making NP to allow extended fermentation time while balancing the time in balls so that the extensibility is where I want it. For NYS, I never bulk ferment and my total time in balls is generally only a few hours.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline foreplease

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Re: Is the timing critical as to when to crush the dough?
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2021, 12:23:11 PM »
I mash but never crush.  ;D
-Tony

Offline miz_en_plaz

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Re: Is the timing critical as to when to crush the dough?
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2021, 12:53:15 PM »
I was just wanting to ask this today. When I get the single dough-mass out of the bucket after fermenting, should I take care not to de-gas before balling? I recall seeing someone 'punch down' the dough when it comes out of the bucket before balling. Might try it today, or at least be less gentle.

Offline Santo

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Re: Is the timing critical as to when to crush the dough?
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2021, 04:28:22 PM »
I like the question, i asked a similar question the other day. I think a lot of same day dough recipes tell you to let it rise in the bowl for 1.5-2 hours, and then take it out of the bowl, ball it up or degas it, so that way it can have its second rise (proof) and take on its final shape in the pan,, for 45-60 minutes, and then bake. I think they say that the second rise gives the dough more time to develop flavor but i'm not sure if that's the full extent of the rationale.

Can you just mix a dough in the KA or FP and then let it relax directly in the pan you wish to bake it?
 
For example if i made a dough with 1.5% IDY which should be a 3-4 hour dough, can I just put it directly in my pan, and let it relax, and every 15 minutes after the dough was formed, try to stretch it gently further toward the edges of the pan, and then once it is fully stretched, cover it and wait 3-4 hours, top it, and then bake straight away?

Would this run the risk of over-proofing? Is this good technique for a same day?
« Last Edit: March 01, 2021, 04:35:53 PM by Santo »

Offline wotavidone

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Re: Is the timing critical as to when to crush the dough?
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2021, 05:31:24 PM »
I sincerely doubt bilk fermenting before balling makes any difference to flavour.
IMO its the long time between making the dough and using it (at least 24 hours for me) that helps, whether its in one big lump or not.
I make into balls when the timing is right for getting the right amount of stretch-ability/elasticity.
If I ball the dough as soon as I make it, they are far too slack 24 hours later.
They are just nice at around 4 hours after balling. So that is what I do,
Mick

Offline AtHomePizza

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Re: Is the timing critical as to when to crush the dough?
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2021, 08:27:55 PM »
If I ball the dough as soon as I make it, they are far too slack 24 hours later.
They are just nice at around 4 hours after balling. So that is what I do,
@wotavidone

By slack you mean easily stretched?

In regards to the 4 hour comment, do you let the dough sit in the fridge overnight then ball it 4 hours before you plan to use it then stick it back in the fridge?

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Offline Yael

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Re: Is the timing critical as to when to crush the dough?
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2021, 08:44:06 PM »
My point of view on all that is:
- make things simpler first.

I never degas dough; IMO, if my dough has to be degased it's due to a mistake in my fermentation schedule (fermented too much). In this case, I can make a "fold & rest" then ball, or ball directly. But it's not something I was looking for.
I seems to me that when dough is balled at this stage, when we open into a skin it will show a lot of nerves and thin spots, making the opening difficult; whereas in bread making we are just looking for volume and this problem is thus irrelevant.

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