Pizza Making Forum

General Topics => Pizza Ovens => Pizza Making Equipment => Hearth Ovens => Topic started by: BANTAR1000 on April 20, 2017, 02:10:54 PM

Title: Finally starting my build!
Post by: BANTAR1000 on April 20, 2017, 02:10:54 PM
Thanks so much for the support this site gives!  You guys have been ridiculously helpful!  I'm cheap (mainly cause I play banjo for a living) and am determined to keep my oven "low cost."  I've been saving bricks, fire bricks, and some metal for the roof for a while and think I'm almost there.  The plan is for a 42" Pompeii.  Hopefully this will be a good start!   

So far for the free stuff I have about 350 new modular bricks, 180 whole fire bricks and quite a few halves, a few pieces of tin and I saw a house being torn down last week and asked about the stainless steel chimney topper.  The person said, "usually, they get torn apart when the chimney falls."  This one shot off of the chimney about 3 feet from when the chimney hit the ground in perfect condition.  She had never seen one not get torn up and it was mine if I wanted it. 

There's a rough drawing of what I think I want my finished product to look like.  What I'm puzzled about right now is, what does the size of the foundation need to be to attach modular bricks to the cinder blocks so that I can continue the brick above the hearth (that I want to be concrete going all around the oven to create a shelf) while giving enough room for the steel studs, backer board, and oven... 

Anyway thanks in advance for any suggestions!

John
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: quietdesperation on April 20, 2017, 03:08:23 PM
good luck, looking forward to following your project!

I see you live in greenville nc, I'm pretty certain I'd be dead if I lived there given the proximity of B's and Ayden Skylight. My last project before retiring last august was in the triangle and I regret not taking a day off to cross both off my bucket list of bbq joints.
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: vtsteve on April 21, 2017, 11:19:11 AM
There's a rough drawing of what I think I want my finished product to look like.  What I'm puzzled about right now is, what does the size of the foundation need to be to attach modular bricks to the cinder blocks so that I can continue the brick above the hearth (that I want to be concrete going all around the oven to create a shelf) while giving enough room for the steel studs, backer board, and oven... 

Anyway thanks in advance for any suggestions!

John

So, you want to clad the cinderblock base with brick, and continue the brick courses up "through" the upper slab (that the dome rests on) all the way to the roofline? I think you don't want the dome slab poking through the walls under the dome; it's nothing but a water catcher that will wick water through to your dome/insulation. You can always add a beer holder later.   :)

You need to make a layout of your dome, similar to this:

42" ID + 4.5+4.5 (dome thickness two sides) + 2x???(planned insulation thickness two sides) + 4"+4" (studs and cement board two sides) = minimum width of your cinderblock base (Round up to the next half-block, it will give you a little more dead space outside the insulation.)

I googled "brick shelf foundation" and found the diagram below -- pretend it's a block wall on the left side, instead of wood framing.
It looks like the foundation extends "about a brick's width" past the surface to be veneered, so add "2 x width of brick" to the cinderblock dimension, and that should be your slab width.

There's an air gap between the brick and the substrate (with brick ties as needed), and the brick overhangs the foundation by the width of the gap.


* I'm slooowly putting granite veneer directly on my cinderblock base; this is my best attempt at answering your brickwork question.  :-D
Maybe Tscarborough will weigh in...

Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: Ev on April 21, 2017, 12:40:01 PM
Looks like you're off to a good start with materials gathering. Here's my build thread from when I built my 42" Pompeii that you may find helpful. https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11155.0

So, you're a professional banjo player? As a long time bluegrass fan and festival attendee, I must ask, what band are you in?
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: hodgey1 on April 22, 2017, 04:04:36 PM
I found the next to free plans "$3.00" from Forno Bravo priceless for my build. They have lots of detailed instructions, dimensions and material spec's.  Their forum was also very helpful, lots of knowledgeable folks.

https://www.fornobravo.com/store/pompeii-oven-instruction-ebook-v2-0-pdf/ (https://www.fornobravo.com/store/pompeii-oven-instruction-ebook-v2-0-pdf/)
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: Ev on April 22, 2017, 06:59:24 PM
I found the next to free plans "$3.00" from Forno Bravo priceless for my build. They have lots of detailed instructions, dimensions and material spec's.  Their forum was also very helpful, lots of knowledgeable folks.

https://www.fornobravo.com/store/pompeii-oven-instruction-ebook-v2-0-pdf/ (https://www.fornobravo.com/store/pompeii-oven-instruction-ebook-v2-0-pdf/)

That's where I got the plans for mine too, but they were free back then. ;)
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: hodgey1 on April 22, 2017, 08:56:47 PM
That's where I got the plans for mine too, but they were free back then. ;)
Still are  ;) $3.00  ;D

There is no less than $300 worth of information packed in that .pdf
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: Ev on April 23, 2017, 10:42:49 AM
Still are  ;) $3.00  ;D

There is no less than $300 worth of information packed in that .pdf

Yeah, pretty much.
BTW, I checked out your build pics yesterday. Outstanding work and a simply stunning appearance! :drool:
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: hodgey1 on April 23, 2017, 11:09:43 AM
BTW, I checked out your build pics yesterday. Outstanding work and a simply stunning appearance! :drool:

Ev, Back at you ;)

I really appreciate the compliment, we were very happy how it turned out.  ;D
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: BANTAR1000 on May 30, 2017, 11:16:13 AM


You need to make a layout of your dome, similar to this:

42" ID + 4.5+4.5 (dome thickness two sides) + 2x???(planned insulation thickness two sides) + 4"+4" (studs and cement board two sides) = minimum width of your cinderblock base (Round up to the next half-block, it will give you a little more dead space outside the insulation.)


THANK YOU!  I may be changing it as I go but love where that diagram is taking me. 
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: BANTAR1000 on May 30, 2017, 11:27:52 AM
Finally making a little head way.  Here's the setting and my neighbor is a contractor who owns a bobcat!  (the best kind of neighbor)  He and another general contractor friend told me that due to the type of ground where I am plastic sheeting under the slab wouldn't be necessary.  He said after a while it would rot off anyway.  Any thoughts? 

Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: Jon in Albany on May 30, 2017, 12:38:43 PM
I went with 6 inches of compacted crushed stone, then plastic and then the slab for my base. That's all on top of very well draining sand.

The water table at my last house was high. Water definitely worked it's way up through the slab. It actually puddled in a low spot before we put in drains and a better sump system. For a few bucks, I'd use the sheeting. Maybe it is unnecessary, but it definitely won't hurt.
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: BANTAR1000 on June 18, 2017, 08:12:54 PM
Trying again! 

An old printing company in town was being torn down and they were glad to give me a bunch of the cinder blocks.

I met a guy who runs a concrete company and I told him what I needed for rock and he said, "as little as you want?  Just get a shovel and come get it."  I think I got about 5-6 tons in several trips on a day I took out a LOT of aggression!  And probably tore out what's left of my shocks in the truck

Got the main slab form done! 
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: BANTAR1000 on June 18, 2017, 08:54:49 PM
I feel like the slab doesn't look bad for a mechanic and a banjo player doing it!  lol  It took us about 2 and a half hours from starting the machine to being done.
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: BANTAR1000 on June 18, 2017, 09:03:02 PM
While I put down the courses of block, my girlfriend came to check on me.  She had a great point.  Me being 6'2" and she claims to be 5' 12" she said, "We're always complaining about everything in our house being too short!  I wish we could make it higher."  The problem is, I had calculated that exact amount out and while we were talking about it, someone from a facebook post messaged me about looking for blocks.  They said they had 20 I could have.  So the next morning I got them and we decided to take it up to 5 normal 8" blocks high. 

That afternoon she came out and shoveled stuff into the mixer while I dumped.  She's awesome! 
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: BANTAR1000 on June 18, 2017, 09:14:50 PM
One thing that occurred to me while I was finishing the blocks is, since I'm gonna be pouring a slab anyway, why not also pour enough for whatever prep area I may need.  So, I came up with a bunch of different ideas.  I'd love some input!  What do you think?

I like the idea of the bar on the right side, and really liked the T shape of #1 but realized it could get hot standing right in front.  So that's where #9 came from.  The GF says to just make it basic and add tables later or make them separate.
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: Tscarborough on June 19, 2017, 11:56:06 AM
One small suggestion before you go any further.  As built, you have created a lovely home for bugs and critters. Since only the first 2 foot or so of the under oven space is usable anyway you may as well build a cross wall about 18"-24" to create a storage area that can be easily cleaned.  I went even further, making a completely separate wood storage area, floor and all.
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: vtsteve on June 20, 2017, 12:04:20 AM
After using mine for a few years (and not using most of the "storage" space under the oven, I agree.   :)

I built a fairly shallow (but still too deep) space at the front, and a large space under the rear accessed from one side.
I've been thinking I should have made a shallow, full-width opening at the front, and run a divider down the remaining length to form two wide, shallow spaces accessed from each side:


X             XXXXXX
X             X
X             X
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
X             X
X             X
X             XXXXXX
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: BANTAR1000 on June 20, 2017, 09:47:31 AM
I love both of those ideas! Now back to the design board!  Lol
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: Jon in Albany on June 20, 2017, 09:54:32 AM
Still working on my build, but I used

XXXXX         X
X                   X
                      X
                      X
X                   X
XXXXXXXXXX
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: stevenstefke on June 20, 2017, 01:06:28 PM
autoc(h)a(d)t
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: hodgey1 on June 20, 2017, 08:36:04 PM
Having a prep area adjacent to your oven "IMO" is priceless. I had initially planned on a small counter area to the right of my oven, then a contractor Freind of mine gave me a pile of quartz counter top that expanded my entire area 10 fold. I'm now not sure how I could do without it.
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: BANTAR1000 on June 26, 2017, 02:22:47 PM
More progress!  I made the decision to use a version of #7 in that pic of the ideas for the hearth slab.  The front has an 18" lip all the way around the right to make a bar/prep area.  The left & back wall will have a 2" concrete reveal.  All I really need to say about it, " I'M NOT A CONCRETE GUY!" 
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: BANTAR1000 on June 26, 2017, 02:39:11 PM
Having a prep area adjacent to your oven "IMO" is priceless.

I agree!  I wanted a bar coming off the side, but couldn't figure out how to make it work with the space, so I did my down the side.  I'll also probably put something close.  SOON!

What did you use for your hearth insulation layer, and where did you get it? That's next, trying to find a cheap version of that!  lol
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: vtsteve on June 27, 2017, 09:37:50 AM
If you have a good local supply for perlite/vermiculite, then perlcrete or vermicrete should be your *cheapest* option.
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: BANTAR1000 on June 27, 2017, 10:00:59 AM
If you have a good local supply for perlite/vermiculite

This has been an issue. I found one place in town.  It's a garden nursery.  They sell 4 cu feet of vermiculite for $20'ish dollars.   Where else would i find vermiculite and I can't find perlite anywhere!  Where would I get that? 

And I've read some pros and cons of vermcrete vs FB board.  I'm not intending on using it for commercial use so I don't really see how the vermcrete could be bad.  Any input? Thanks again?
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: Jon in Albany on June 27, 2017, 11:55:13 AM
I found a good price on perlite at a greenhouse supply wholesaler. It was much cheaper than getting it at a home Depot or lowes. Don't remember the exact price but they were 6 cubic foot bags instead of 2. Some masonry supply places carry it to fill blocks but that was much finer/dusty.
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: BANTAR1000 on June 27, 2017, 02:31:02 PM
I found a good price on perlite at a greenhouse supply wholesaler.

Thank you sir!  So far, the cheapest I've found is $20 for a 4 cu foot. But I'm loving your blog man!  Oven is awesome.  I'm a little confused between September and October.  You have a hearth stand made of just concrete,  then a perlite concrete mix insulating layer,  then fiber board, THEN fire bricks? 
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: Jon in Albany on June 27, 2017, 03:01:55 PM
Thank you sir!  So far, the cheapest I've found is $20 for a 4 cu foot. But I'm loving your blog man!  Oven is awesome.  I'm a little confused between September and October.  You have a hearth stand made of just concrete,  then a perlite concrete mix insulating layer,  then fiber board, THEN fire bricks?

Thank you. Ive made a surprising amount of local friends with the blog. It's been fun.

Yes. That's what I did. I've got the slab, a 3.5 inch layer of perlcrete (a 2x4 high), two inches of board under the floor. The insulation board was probably unnecessary but I wanted some for inside an eventual door. It also helped with giving me a little flexibility with the height of the oven floor. I bought a box and had enough for the 2 inches under the oven and two inches inside a future door. There is 3 inches of blanket around the oven. When I get the walls up, I'll top that off with some more loose perlite. Seems like the running joke on the Forno Bravo site is no one has ever complained about too much insulation. Without a door, just bricks stacked in front of the opening, I have had very good heat retention. I think the insulated door will improve it. If I did it again, I think I'd go with a 2x6 form for the perlite and skip the board. I'd say the best part of the board was that it was easy to level and there was a nice flat surface you could mark up to start the oven.

The goal was an oven that could heat up in a reasonable amount of time (not a huge mass) but well insulated so I could use the residual heat too. Now if it ever stops raining, I can start the enclosure. I've been stockpiling the materials in the garage. Hope to get started on that soon.
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: BANTAR1000 on June 27, 2017, 09:24:53 PM
If I did it again, I think I'd go with a 2x6 form for the perlite and skip the board.


I think that's what I'm gonna do!  You're a genius!  I can get the vermiculite any time. Why can't I (or can I) smooth out the top of the vermcrete? And 5/1 with Portland cement? 
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: hodgey1 on June 27, 2017, 09:26:44 PM
I was talked into the fiber board floor because of warnings that the floor heat retention would be better when insulated with FB over perlite. For the little possible savings, I would use the FB, you don't want to put all the time and effort into your build and have a floor that's temperature won't hold. I thought my build components I used were the cheapest part of the project, the finishing touches and exterior rendering is where I spent lots of money. Don't try and cut cost on proper oven build materials, Just my $.02.
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: Jon in Albany on June 27, 2017, 09:48:19 PM

I think that's what I'm gonna do!  You're a genius!  I can get the vermiculite any time. Why can't I (or can I) smooth out the top of the vermcrete? And 5/1 with Portland cement?
It levels, but it isn't smooth like a concrete finish. It's weird. It looks like it will crumble and then one morning it's oddly solid.  I used some fireclay to make it smooth so nothing would punch through or ding the board. I think 1 inch of board is equal to 2-3 inches of perlcrete.

Hodgey has a good point about the board cost. I probably have as much in cost in enclosure materials (steel studs, plywood, some snow/ice barrier) in the garage as the perlite, boards, and blankets. If you have a Harbison Wlaker nearby, you can pick up the insulation to avoid shipping. I goy 2 boxes of blanket and 1 box of 1 inch board(16 pieces) for I think $350. There's one in Buffalo and I stopped by when I was out that way for work. Fit easily in a Ford Escape.

I saved up for a few years for the project. Little bit each paycheck went into my wood oven slush fund. Auto deposit. I think it becomes the vacation fund when I finish.
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: BANTAR1000 on June 28, 2017, 09:31:52 AM
Well, my hearth slab didn't fall.  (YET!)
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: BANTAR1000 on June 28, 2017, 09:35:18 AM
Another question on insulation board.  What can I ask for if I'm shopping around?  I found the spec sheet for forno bravos board I figure I'll just take around with me. I don't wanna buy something that may get crushed...
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: Jon in Albany on June 28, 2017, 10:45:35 AM
I used InsBlok 19, the compressive strength is 38 psi. So a 4.5"x9" firebrick, that's over 1500 pounds and it's good to 1900F. Seemed like sufficient overkill to me. Came in 1 inch thick boards that were 1'x3'.
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: vtsteve on June 28, 2017, 11:01:11 AM
I think InsBlok loses compressive strength if it gets *really* wet; if you use it, make sure you keep it covered during construction.
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: BANTAR1000 on June 28, 2017, 11:17:37 AM
make sure you keep it covered during construction.

GOOD TIP!  I lucked out at a flea market and bought a 9 x 12 canopy tent with sides screens for $5.   Did you use ins board?
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: vtsteve on June 28, 2017, 11:23:18 AM
GOOD TIP!  I lucked out at a flea market and bought a 9 x 12 canopy tent with sides screens for $5.   Did you use ins board?

I have Foamglas on the slab, covered with cal-sil (like FB board):  https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=38955.msg389860#msg389860 (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=38955.msg389860#msg389860)
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: Jon in Albany on June 28, 2017, 11:40:07 AM
Good point about the water...I have been kind of religious about keeping everything dry with a system of tarps and a canopy. I used tapcons to attach the canopy to concrete block. The blocks were better than spikes in terms of keeping the canopy from blowing away and the extra 8 inches of height worked out too.
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: BANTAR1000 on June 28, 2017, 12:26:33 PM
. I used tapcons to attach the canopy to concrete block.

Im gonna have to use similar.  I though of everything!  Saturday,  I made the hearth form and attached it, and sunday the girlfriend and I poured it.  I completely forgot to set the threaded rod into the slab for the bottom plates of the walls.  Pissed me off!
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: Jon in Albany on June 28, 2017, 12:37:19 PM
Im gonna have to use similar.  I though of everything!  Saturday,  I made the hearth form and attached it, and sunday the girlfriend and I poured it.  I completely forgot to set the threaded rod into the slab for the bottom plates of the walls.  Pissed me off!
I meant like this. When I built the dome, it fit nicely under the lowered canopy. Some winds were strong enough to lift the canopy into a raised position so I ended up using straps and more blocks to hold it all down.
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: BANTAR1000 on June 28, 2017, 12:47:06 PM
GENIUS!!!
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: vtsteve on June 28, 2017, 11:57:59 PM
I completely forgot to set the threaded rod into the slab for the bottom plates of the walls.  Pissed me off!

I did the same thing... drilled into the cured slab and epoxied them in afterward (I was afraid an expanding anchor would blow the edge off the slab).

I used this (I needed to buy a carbide bit too; the hole size needs to be close to the diameter of the threaded rod):  Sika AnchorFix Anchoring Adhesive (http://www.homedepot.com/p/Sika-10-1-fl-oz-AnchorFix-1-Anchoring-Adhesive-112729/202524387)
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: BANTAR1000 on June 29, 2017, 08:20:39 AM
drilled into the cured slab and epoxied them in afterward (I was afraid an expanding anchor would blow the edge off the slab).

Didn't even think about that.  I hadn't gotten that far into how I was gonna do it, I thought about using a Ramset.  But I don't know if those nails will be enough to hold the walls down.
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: Tscarborough on June 29, 2017, 05:38:19 PM
It is actually quite standard not to try and embed the rods, but to add them where needed when needed.
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: BANTAR1000 on September 14, 2017, 12:06:17 PM
Since I made the hearth quite a bit bigger than my bottom slab, I didn't get to make the surface very smooth. I'm a little concerned about putting the cal-sil boards on top of it because they may be out of level. Can I just use fireclay underneath of it to sort of shim up the boards?
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: vtsteve on September 14, 2017, 12:49:45 PM
A dry mix of sand and fireclay is the usual, just screed it flat with a 2x4. Use the same mix to bed and level the floor bricks on top of the cal-sil.
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: BANTAR1000 on September 18, 2017, 11:53:12 AM
Got my boards!  I'm amazed how light these suckers are!  And because my wonderful girlfriend was so close to Louisville this weekend she picked them up and saved me freight so I got one more board. 

Now getting some fire clay and mortar mix and soon as it dries up a bit,  I'm gonna go start working again!  Thanks again for everyone's help!
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: vtsteve on September 18, 2017, 11:58:19 AM
Very nice!
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: BANTAR1000 on September 19, 2017, 02:12:19 PM
So how big of a pain in the butt is it really to cut the oven floor to fit inside the walls.  Is it worth the trouble or should I just plan on laying the foundation and putting my first course on top of the floor?
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: vtsteve on September 20, 2017, 02:06:15 AM
I made a template, laid out my bricks in a herringbone pattern, traced the template with a sharpie, and cut the edge bricks to the line. Then I wrapped the floor bricks with a layer of corrugated (to leave a thin gap after it burned out) and mortared the first-course soldiers around them. It was pretty straightforward.
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: BANTAR1000 on September 20, 2017, 12:01:28 PM
Then I wrapped the floor bricks with a layer of corrugated
 
Thanks Steve!  And just to cover my butt.  Corrugated what?  Im assuming paper.  Like cardboard?   
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: vtsteve on September 20, 2017, 12:20:30 PM
Thanks Steve!  And just to cover my butt.  Corrugated what?  Im assuming paper.  Like cardboard?   

Yes, sorry about that!   :-D

I cut strips off a plain cardboard box; the cardboard keeps the first course from bonding to the floor. The gap left when the cardboard burns out will fill with ash, which absorbs any relative motion (from uneven heating) between the floor and walls.
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: Jon in Albany on September 20, 2017, 12:25:10 PM
I did pretty much the same thing with a piece of luan board. Once the wall was up, I cut the board in 3 pieces so it would fit out of the opening, pieced them back together with duct tape and used the template to protect the floor during construction.

You wouldn't be the first to build on top, but I wouldn't want the bricks to go much past the outside of the wall. Don't give the heat a chance to go anywhere. You can see how Tom (TScarborough) built this one on top of the floor but still trimmed the floor to end at the outside of the wall.

http://brokebrick.com/genesoven.htm

Title: Finally starting my build!
Post by: BANTAR1000 on September 20, 2017, 04:29:46 PM
I know that normal people find info first but I'm better at doing it on the way...

So I have a concrete hearth stand,  and I'm not gonna use vermicrete.  I'm gonna put a layer of dry sand and fire clay as Steve mentioned then 2"cal sil boards.  Because I can't get those boards wet,  how do the bricks at the vent landing get 'secured?' If I wanted to basketweave or herringbone the bricks for the floor and the vent landing, the bricks on the landing could be smaller.  What's to keep them from falling out of place?  Mainly on the edge or is that the normal way to do it?
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: vtsteve on September 21, 2017, 12:56:41 AM
Good news - cal-sil is actually moisture resistant!

I'm not quite sure what the rest of your question means... the vent walls are "separate but adjacent" to the inner arch, and held in place by the weight of the vent arch and flue. I cut the vent floor to fit inside them, too.

Caution: overthinking ahead...
I built my inner arch (the opening of the dome proper) with a bit of a snout, which projects a few inches into the vent arch. I back-cut the vent arch and entry bricks and stuffed the area between the dome and the vent with ceramic fiber batting for a thermal break.
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: BANTAR1000 on September 21, 2017, 11:57:50 AM
I realized as soon as I hit send my question was a little crazy.   LoL

I couldn't figure out how to draw a basket weave/herring bone easily so that's what I could draw!  What's to keep the bricks that are highlighted in pink from falling or getting really loose?  If I continue the pattern there.
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: Tscarborough on September 21, 2017, 03:54:47 PM
Is the floor inside the walls or are the walls on top of the floor?
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: Tommy G on September 22, 2017, 11:29:27 AM
Pattern helps lock them in but I use Heatstop mortar and set them like tile.

Tom
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: BANTAR1000 on September 22, 2017, 03:36:40 PM
Is the floor inside the walls or are the walls on top of the floor?

My plan was to put them inside the walls.
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: Tscarborough on September 23, 2017, 12:02:28 PM
It wouldn't hurt to mortar set them anywhere not restrained by walls.
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: BANTAR1000 on September 25, 2017, 09:51:45 AM
The brick company in my town did not have fire clay in stock so I figured I'd just start cutting the oven floor.   Cutting bricks is a pain!  Specially curved...

The place told me a month ago they kept height temp mortar,  but now they're saying they don't keep it and only sell heat stop at $100 per 50lb bag.  So I'm now trying to find cheaper solutions.   What's the mix of standard mortar, fire clay, sand and lime?  Is it a decent option?
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: vtsteve on September 25, 2017, 10:48:09 AM
"Homebrew refractory mortar" with 3:1:1:1*  6:1:1:1 (sand, Portland *cement*, fireclay, lime) has a lot of positive history - I think someone on the forum even used it to cast an oven, and reported no problems after several years. You want fine, sharp sand if you're cutting your bricks to fit tightly. If you search the quoted term you'll get lots of hits.

*Fixed the ratio for future readers
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: BANTAR1000 on September 25, 2017, 11:31:17 AM
Thank you Steve! 

Another question.  In the FB book it says not to use a wet pre mixed mortar.  A guy tried to sell me a pail of it saying that's all they use on wood fired kilns.   Could this stuff have changed since the book was put out?
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: Jon in Albany on September 25, 2017, 11:46:57 AM
Heat stop makes a premixed but I imagine that would cost more in the long run to bags of heat stop 50. Not sure why they are jamming you on a bag of heat stop 50. I think I paid about $50 a bag.

For me, the shavings from cutting the bricks wasn't enough fire clay and I bought a bag of it from a pottery supply place. Not sure if you have any pottery supply places near you. I lucked into one nearby.
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: Tscarborough on September 25, 2017, 02:38:57 PM
The actual ratio is 6:1:1:1   sand/portland/lime/fireclay.
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: BANTAR1000 on September 25, 2017, 02:44:19 PM
Something else I'm having a hard time understanding:

The height of the soldier brick. I'm using 9" long bricks and have cut the oven floor and the vent landing so that it will go inside the soldier course. How tall do I need to make the soldier brick?   And where does the dome height start?  At the top of the soldier brick or the top of the floor? 

I've decided to go with a 21" top, but wherever it starts from could be a big difference.
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: BANTAR1000 on September 25, 2017, 06:00:58 PM
Finally got the round cut!!!
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: Tscarborough on September 25, 2017, 07:08:26 PM
Are you going to chamfer the soldier course?
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: BANTAR1000 on September 25, 2017, 07:37:37 PM
Are you going to chamfer the soldier course?

Do you mean at the top, to start the dome?  My plan was to leave the tops of the soldier course is flat but I don't know how high they need to be before the start of the arch.
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: Tscarborough on September 25, 2017, 08:36:26 PM
Ideally, the tops are chamfered and the dome starts there.
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: Tommy G on September 25, 2017, 10:05:32 PM
the soldier course should start even with the top of the deck which would make the side walls the length of a full brick. The dome would start from there. The highest point of the dome should not exceed 16 inches.

You need to cut some more bricks to border the floor deck!
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: BANTAR1000 on September 26, 2017, 09:21:21 AM
Lots of questions now.  The book gives a high vault option of 21". It seems that's a little more versatile? It also says a half a brick on top of the floor.  But since I decided to put the floor inside the walls, that means I should cut the height a half plus a width (for the floor)? Half meaning 4 1/2" + 2 1/4" for the floor?  That will be the bottle of the chamfer and also the bottom of the dome?
 
One more while I'm at it:  can I alight the soldier course either way to the bottom of the floor?  Meaning the 2 1/4" side faces the floor,  OR the 4 1/2" side faces the floor?   Thanks again!

BTW the drawing of the chamfer on the brick is NOT the correct angle.  Just to show that's where I'm planning on putting the chamfer.
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: Tommy G on September 26, 2017, 11:53:36 AM
Here is how I did it.....
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: Jon in Albany on September 26, 2017, 12:54:40 PM
My 2 cents...

The difference in the dome heights are different styles of ovens. If you go with the lower height you will need to reinforce your oven wall for the outward thrust of the dome. The half sphere Pompeii oven doesn't have that outward thrust. The two styles of ovens have their own pros and cons.

The orientation of the bricks in the wall...the thick wall is a soldier course and the thinner wall is a sailor course. The soldier course is stronger, but has more mass. Again, you've got pros/cons. Just like picking a type/amount of indulation, these are design options you need to pick for what you want your oven to be.
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: vtsteve on September 26, 2017, 01:24:43 PM
The soldier course (4.5" thickness) is more resistant to tipping (from the outward thrust of the dome), and gives more of a bond to the adjacent bricks. At 42" diameter and 16" center height (measured from the top of the floor bricks), the dome isn't too flat... you *could* run a tension band around the soldiers, but it's not really necessary IMO (I don't have one).
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: Tscarborough on September 26, 2017, 08:23:13 PM
Ideally, you do not want a joint at floor level, nor do you want a continuous joint at the spring line.  In the case of using a full soldier/sailor, you will have a vertical wall of around 5" with the floor inside the wall.  While that is somewhat less than optimal, it is still very workable.  If you are going to lay a course of brick below the sailor/soldier, each should have 2 cuts, one for width and one for height.  To make it easier, I suggest jutting the 2-1/4 down to 1" and using that as a "shim" under the soldier/sailor to get the joint above the floor (to keep the peel from sticking in there, and yes, it does).  If you will be doing a 2 brick wall as shown by TommyG, every other soldier, should be cut in half and the chamfered topper elongate to break up that joint line.
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: BANTAR1000 on September 28, 2017, 01:06:29 PM
While that is somewhat less than optimal, it is still very workable.

When  you say "less than optimal" is it too short, or too tall?    I think I've decided to lay a sailor rather than soldier course.  I want my dome height to be 21", do I have to have a vertical wall more than a half a brick (4 1/2")?

and when you said to "break up the joint line" at the top of the sailor/soldier, can you explain a little more what you mean there?  I'm not sure what that means.

Thanks!  I feel like this first course is the hardest part of the build so far and there's SO MUCH info on it, it's confusing me.
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: Tommy G on September 28, 2017, 03:20:26 PM
He is referring to the continuous joints..One at the floor and one at the top of soldier (wall). It is always better to stagger joint lines. Continuous joint lines can potentially lead to weak joints in the construction. All would agree but in this particular situation supporting the walls with steel bands to help hold walls is sufficient (workable).

The joint at deck level causing peel to get stuck?  never had an issue but I can see how it would happen. Staggering joints at chamfer? Again I agree but not necessary if using steel band for support. Most of my ovens are mobile ones and are all built this way. My original oven now has thousands of miles over the road and have not experienced any internal cracking or loose brick.

Not taking away from any of the advise Tscarborough is giving. Tons of knowledge and always willing to share. We are fortunate to have members like himself who are able to help so many! I myself have learn much from him and others. Hope to continue the journey and passing on all of the knowledge we share here!

Tommy G
Title: Finally starting my build!
Post by: BANTAR1000 on September 28, 2017, 03:29:23 PM
Tommy I TOTALLY agree!  People here have been amazing and I wish every subject had people willing to be so helpful! 

So I think reading your response may have made something click.  Were not talking about staggering up and down (at the top of the sailor/soldier) you mean side to side?   Is this a correct (though terribly drawn) image of the outside first few bricks with the stagger or am I missing something?
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: Tscarborough on September 28, 2017, 03:42:25 PM
The joint I was referring to is not the one at the chamfer line, it is the one below it.  As stated though, if it is going to be banded or otherwise reinforced it is fine.

As for the floor level joint being an issue, it is in mine, I built wall-on-floor, and it does get jammed in there.

The height of the side wall is normally 8-9".
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: BANTAR1000 on September 28, 2017, 05:42:10 PM
The joint I was referring to is not the one at the chamfer line, it is the one below it.  As stated though, if it is going to be banded or otherwise reinforced it is fine.

The height of the side wall is normally 8-9".

Thanks Tscarborough!   I can understand drawings!  lol

I think I will put the 1" shims underneath,  then the regular sailors and reinforce it with concrete similar to yours and Jon's! I'll start the pitch at the top of the sailor.

Is the ratio different for the concrete to reinforce the sailor than the mortar?
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: Tscarborough on September 29, 2017, 12:49:06 AM
Yes, it should be concrete not mortar.  The difference is the addition of larger aggregate with similar thermal characteristics.  Take your waste from the firebrick cuttings and:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNcFwByeUzw
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: Jon in Albany on September 29, 2017, 09:29:30 AM
Just to warn you, making that firebrick aggregate took me a awhile.
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: BANTAR1000 on September 29, 2017, 09:38:15 AM
Oh I can imagine it took while. I'm trying to think of an easier way but doubt there is one... Can u give me a mix for that concrete?   I got 6:1:1:1 sand, Portland cement, fireclay, lime. But do I just add a part of the fire brick to make this a concrete?
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: Jon in Albany on September 29, 2017, 09:40:48 AM
Tom, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it was adding 2 parts grog to that formulation. I did all that parts measuring with a small bucket when mixing.
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: Tscarborough on September 29, 2017, 10:00:04 AM
No, that is right, 2 parts, but reduce the sand by 2 parts.
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: BANTAR1000 on September 29, 2017, 10:20:19 AM
Thanks again!!!  I'm gonna use the left over normal concrete sand for the concrete and get fine sand for the mortar joints.

Jon I saw you wrapped wire and a piece of rebar in the concrete for your sailors and I haven't seen all of tom's build to know.  Because my sailors are gonna be a little shorter, will concrete be enough or should I put some fence wire and rebar in the concrete mix?
Title: Finally starting my build!
Post by: BANTAR1000 on September 29, 2017, 11:42:15 AM
And of course I can't find 'hydrated' lime.  Not at brick stores,  Agri-supply,  tractor supply or lowes... is this usable or the wrong product?
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: Tscarborough on September 29, 2017, 12:10:22 PM
Put that in a bucket, cover with water (do not stir), keep it covered with water and in about three days you will have hydrated lime.
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: Jon in Albany on September 29, 2017, 12:18:05 PM
I cut welded wire mesh to strengthen mine. Tom's was a little different. Here is a link to a bunch of pictures Tom posted. I looked at them regularly. His reinforcement is shown on Aug 12.


http://brokebrick.com/genesoven.htm
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: BANTAR1000 on September 29, 2017, 12:21:53 PM
Put that in a bucket, cover with water (do not stir), keep it covered with water and in about three days you will have hydrated lime.

Does it change the over all mortar/concrete mix or should I add a tiny bit more hydrated lime because of the water?
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: vtsteve on September 29, 2017, 12:28:24 PM
Put away the scale (never thought I'd type that  :-D) - masonry ratios are  by *volume*.

A shovelful is the standard unit - add water until the texture is right.
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: Tscarborough on September 29, 2017, 12:28:27 PM
No, it will just take a tad less water. And note that as long as you keep it covered with water, it will last forever, and, in fact, get better with age.  3 days is the minimum, in the old days they used to slake the lime for a project in a slaking pit onsite for up to a year before use.
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: BANTAR1000 on September 29, 2017, 12:54:23 PM
Awesome info.  This works out well.  I can cut bricks (which should be a metaphor for something) all weekend and first of the week actually start mortaring.
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: BANTAR1000 on September 29, 2017, 12:56:51 PM

A shovelful is the standard unit - add water until the texture is right.

When I first started this,  I was trying to get an accurate total cost.   it was a giant pain (for me) to come up with how to transfer tons of rock and sand to yards then shovels. 
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: Tscarborough on September 29, 2017, 04:13:44 PM
A better measurement is a standard 5 gallon bucket. To the rim is .77 cubic foot, make a mark 9" from the bottom and you have 1/2 cubic foot, more or less.
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: BANTAR1000 on September 30, 2017, 11:10:50 AM
A better measurement is a standard 5 gallon bucket. To the rim is .77 cubic foot, make a mark 9" from the bottom and you have 1/2 cubic foot, more or less.

I should have asked here!  lol that's perfect.

On the 1" shuns you suggested under the sailors. Should I mortar the sailors to them or let them float? 
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: Tscarborough on September 30, 2017, 11:58:54 AM
Mortar them.
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: BANTAR1000 on September 30, 2017, 02:53:09 PM
One more question and I'm ready to cut.   You said to cut the 2 1/4 to 1" and that I would have to cut for height and width.  Can I just cut 1" pieces out of the 9" tall part and only cut once?  Then stagger the joints from side to side?
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: BANTAR1000 on September 30, 2017, 03:27:48 PM
Just in case writing it didn't make sense.  Can't I do this?
Title: Finally starting my build!
Post by: BANTAR1000 on September 30, 2017, 05:15:25 PM
I made an executive decision and went with the shims.   This is my most confusing part.  How do I know where to chamfer my sailors? Originally I thought the dome would start at the floor.  Now I have a vertical wall and I want my top 21" off the floor.
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: Tscarborough on September 30, 2017, 05:26:25 PM
Not sure I understand.  If you are going to use a sailor course with 1" chips underneath to remove the joint at the floor, there is no joint to stagger; that is a "captured" joint and of no structural concern.
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: Tscarborough on September 30, 2017, 05:27:00 PM
OK, I see from you picture what you meant.  Yes, you have it correct.
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: Tscarborough on September 30, 2017, 05:40:08 PM
I find it easier to loft it than to calculate it, but either will work.  To loft it, draw vertical lines representing the walls at the size of the oven width.  Establish a floor line, then find center, measure up 21" and mark it. Mark the spring line of the dome at the desired height (with the shim and the chamfer, it will be around 7-1/2" above the FLOOR line.  The next part will require either a helper or calculation.  With a helper, tie a pencil to a string, and starting at center, move the pinion point of the string backwards until the drawn radius hits the center top and both spring points.  Draw it.  From your vertical lines, make another vertical line 2-1/4" (or whatever width your brick are) outside the first.  Do the string thing again, the width of the brick used in the dome (should be around 4.5") above the first.  At the spring line, draw a line 90 degrees to the inner point and that is your chamfer line to cut.  edit- It may not always be 90 degrees, but the line will always cross through the point where the dome meets the wall on both lines.


It takes longer to type it than to do it, and if you do it on something good, like masonite, you can use it as a template as you build the oven (I cut it in half and just use half).
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: BANTAR1000 on October 01, 2017, 10:23:12 PM
Tom you're amazing.  I had to read it a few times to get the idea but it makes sense.   I will be putting this on something at least as sturdy as thick foam but wanted a starting point. How does it look?
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: BANTAR1000 on October 02, 2017, 12:18:30 PM
I did screw up the right side.  I put the right vertical wall too far to the right.  But I made my 4 1/2" mark on the floor.  And got yelled at.
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: BANTAR1000 on October 18, 2017, 11:35:20 PM
A couple months ago I saw this thing on a Facebook site about an hour away. He wanted $250 for it and said it didnít work. Iíve been lightly haggling with him and yesterday I had to go to the town he lived in and told him how much it would cost to fix and get it working.  So I offered him $30 and he said $45.  I bought it!  Took it home, rigged it up to an extension cord and the thing started right up!   Now gotta figure out where to put it!
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: BANTAR1000 on October 22, 2017, 04:22:45 PM
Iím back at it.  Cut a lot of bricks on half and started on my angle.   Thoughts or prayers?  Lol
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: BANTAR1000 on October 23, 2017, 07:14:42 PM
Made some progress today!  Everything is still dry but will probably start missing this week.  I have to figure out how to connect the opening to the dome,  but Iíll get it!
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: BANTAR1000 on October 27, 2017, 03:36:05 PM
Before I get too crazy.   I have a concrete hearth,  which Iím planning on putting a dry mix of sand and fire clay as per Tomís idea to level a little.  Then Iím putting my 2Ē cal-sil boards.  Do I have to cover them with anything before I start putting the bricks down?  Or can everything just sit on them dry? 
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: Ev on October 27, 2017, 11:40:24 PM
As long as it's flat and level you should be good to go.
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: BANTAR1000 on March 18, 2018, 08:34:43 PM
I made a mistake. Sorta.  Planning my build, I didn't understand the moisture wicking from my concrete slab/countertop that will be holding the oven.  I don't want to put the Cal-Sil boards on top of the concrete to get wet (even thought I don't think they're going to) so just in case, I am thinking of either putting real thin metal flashing under the Cal-Sil boards to be a moisture barrier.  Or  painting the hearth with a concrete sealer under the Cal-Sil Boards but I'm curious about that and food.  The Cal-Sil boards are 2" rated 2,300 degrees, and the fire bricks will be sitting on top of them.  I don't think heat will be an issue under the Cal-Sil boards... Any thoughts, or better ideas?
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: Tscarborough on March 25, 2018, 09:08:42 AM
Heat under the cal-sil boards will be nominal, you can use any type of waterproofing you like.
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: LaLabbo on March 27, 2018, 03:20:56 AM
Hey,

how do you hold the cal-sil plates in place? With high tempreture glue or mortar?

And how are your soldiers mounted on the cal sil board? Mortar?`

Thank you
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: vtsteve on March 28, 2018, 12:02:46 AM
Hey,

how do you hold the cal-sil plates in place? With high tempreture glue or mortar?

And how are your soldiers mounted on the cal sil board? Mortar?`

Thank you

I used gravity and friction. If there are big gaps you can bed the boards and/or the floor bricks in a dry mix of fireclay and fine sand; after you put a thousand pounds of bricks on them, they're not going anyplace.  :)
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: BANTAR1000 on March 28, 2018, 12:45:44 PM
Agree with VTSteve!  Those boards are not moving. 

My only follow up would be, since I'm planning on putting the floor inside my sailors and will have those one inch blocks (see back a few comments) under them.  I will then put wire and mortar around the sailors like I think Jon in Albany did.  Should I put some of the same metal flashing on top of the excess cal-sil boards, under where the sailors and mortar are going to go, just to keep them from having wet mortar laying on them?  Hope this makes sense!  lol
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: BANTAR1000 on June 22, 2018, 03:15:10 PM
Iím back at it and am almost done with the sailor course.  Jon and Tom said to make the concrete to go around mixing with fire brick grog.  Can I use vermiculite instead of breaking tiny bits of fire bricks?
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: Jon in Albany on June 22, 2018, 08:15:33 PM
I followed Tom's lead so you'll get a better answer from him. I thought the idea behind adding chunks of firebrick was that the mix became more like concrete. The brick was aggregate that could see high temperatures. I don't think you would get the same strength properties using vermiculite. But Tom can supply a fact based answer instead of my guesses.
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: vtsteve on June 23, 2018, 12:16:59 AM
I agree with Jon, vermiculite isn't a substitute. Crushed firebrick is a sharp (grippy), high-strength aggregate and vermiculite is neither.
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: Tscarborough on June 24, 2018, 11:59:48 AM
You add vermiculite/perlite to concrete to make it lighter, but it also reduces the strength by a significant amount.  The purpose of the grog is to prevent cracking, and to reduce the amount of paste needed to make the concrete.  It will increase the strength.
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: BANTAR1000 on June 24, 2018, 05:46:52 PM
Well crap... lol now I have to go take out some aggression!
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: BANTAR1000 on June 27, 2018, 06:57:30 PM
I think I'm gonna look for one of these!  lol  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyn3vK3EMmk
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: BANTAR1000 on June 22, 2019, 05:55:58 PM
So I'm back to work again!  But I'm not using a hammer, I'm using a big hammer drill to make grog with my fire bricks.  My plan is a 2" wall all the way around the first sailor course up to the top of the first bricks.  Is the mix for this concrete the same as usual just with fire brick rocks instead of regular aggregate?  Also, how can I tell how much grog I'm gonna need?  Yes, the hammer drill is easier than the metal plate and hammer posted before but it still sucks!  LOL  Thanks guys!  -John
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: Jon in Albany on June 22, 2019, 09:03:13 PM
The mix I used was homebrew plus grog.

1 part hydrated lime, 1 part fireclay, 1 part Portland cement, 3 parts sand plus grog.

No idea how much you will need. I had a good sized box full of it it and thought I could have used some more. As the making of the grog continued, the size of the pieces got bigger out of laziness and possibly grog making fatigue.

Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: BANTAR1000 on June 22, 2019, 11:14:50 PM
Wow, Jon I had this all wrong.  I thought it was the

3 aggregate, 2 sand, 1 portland mix and I was just going to use firebrick grog instead!

 How big was your box?  I was planning on using 5, 5 gallon buckets full of grog!
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: Jon in Albany on June 24, 2019, 12:16:05 AM
I can't speak to that mix. I followed Tscarbough's lead from when he built and oven for Gene. You can see what he did in this area of the thread.

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=20117.msg201915#msg201915

My oven is 42 inch diameter. I poured a 2 inch thick ring around the walls. I also added a little more to add mass to the dome.
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: BANTAR1000 on February 15, 2020, 06:56:54 PM
Again, Iím back at it this time hopefully for good.  Iím still stuck at the refractory concrete for reinforcing the ďSailorĒ walls.  Iíve found an easier way to make the firebrick grog, but I donít know how much to make!

For a 2Ē thick wall all the way around 42 diameter Iím gonna use:
1 part Portland
1 part fireclay
1 part hydrated lime
3 parts sand
2 parts crushed fire brick
How much crushed fire brick will I need to have?  I have one and a half 5 gallon buckets at the moment but plan to spend tomorrow making more.  Thanks for checking on me! 

Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: BANTAR1000 on May 08, 2020, 10:18:46 AM
I need clarification.  This is taking me so long because of work and kids.  I took my tarp off the other day to start mortaring new bricks and several bricks fell over.  It's very possible it was a very hot day when I did it and the mortar dried too fast.  So,  Is this correct:

homebrew refractory Concrete
1 portland, 1 fireclay, 1 hydrated lime, 3 sand, 2 crushed fire brick



Homebrew refractory Mortar
6 sand, 1 portland, 1 lime, 1 fireclay


Masonry is WAY too complicated for this banjo player!
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: Jon in Albany on May 08, 2020, 11:35:58 AM
In my build I used HeatStop 50 for mortar so I don't have hands on homebrew mortar experience. But the way I did it was the only difference between homebrew mortar and homebrew refractory concrete was the grog.

Homebrew mortar

1 Portland
1 Fireclay
1 Hydrated Lime
3 sand

Add grog to make it a concrete.

The 6 parts sand seems high, I'm wondering if you are crossing a perlcrete formula which I have seen have 6 to 10 parts of perlite in it.
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: BANTAR1000 on May 08, 2020, 12:10:08 PM
Thank you again Jon! That may have been an issue before.  But now I feel better about it.  Iím hoping to mortar the last of the low bricks today or tomorrow, then set my form for the concrete early next week!
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: BANTAR1000 on May 08, 2020, 12:16:58 PM
How far did one 50lb bag get you? 
Title: Re: Finally starting my build!
Post by: Jon in Albany on May 08, 2020, 01:12:40 PM
How far did one 50lb bag get you?
I think I used 3 bags plus some of a 4th on the build. If I was a better mason, it would have taken less than 3 bags. I had a plastic cup that I kept in the bag of heatstop. I'd scoop some into a plastic bowl and then add some water from a liter sport water bottle. Made what felt like a million small batches. Only make you need right away.