Finally Am Trying to Activate My Starters

[Pete-zza]

Don,

Are you sure that the Mexican flours such as you showed in the photos are bromated? Recently, when I was working for Norma on the Ultra-Thin project, I researched bromated all-purpose flours in the U.S. and could not find any such product. I even had a couple of exchanges on this matter with a specialist at General Mills. For example, see Reply 360 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11044.msg102978.html#msg102978.

Moreover, every time that I go to Mexico I make a point of it to scrutinize Mexican flours and labels. I don't ever recall seeing bromates (potassium bromate) on the labels. Both of the brands you mentioned, and showed in your photos, are usually available in the markets near me outside of Dallas. This morning, while I was at a local supermarket that caters mostly to Hispanics, with many brands of food items that I have seen in Mexico, I did not see the San Antonio brand but I did see the Selecta brand. I jotted down the ingredients, exactly, as follows: Enriched Flour wheat Iron, Folic Acid, Niacin, Benzoil Peroxide, L-ascorbic Acid, Azodicarbonamide and Enzymes. In this listing, the benzoil peroxide is a flour bleaching agent. L-ascorbic acid is Vitamin C and is frequently used as a substitute for bromates (e.g., Papa John's in the U.S. does this). The Enzymes are most likely diastatic malt, either in dry or fungal form (fungal amylase). The Azodicarbonamide is a dough improver, used to mature and bleach the flour. It apparently is outlawed in many countries, including Europe. It is possible that the benzoil peroxide and/or the Azodicarbonamide are deleterious to natural sourdough cultures. For example, I have read that one should not use bleached flours to feed sourdough cultures. However, I don't know if that is an old wives tale or is backed by good science.

I don't have an empty San Antonio Tres Estrellas flour bag to examine more closely, but according to the ingredients listing given at http://www.mexgrocer.com/13522-02107.html, it appears that the product is just enriched flour without any barley malt or anything else. If that listing is correct, I would think that the San Antonio flour would be usable to feed your sourdough cultures. You might double check on this matter when you are next at the store where you would normally purchase it. BTW, I once used the San Antonio Tres Estrellas flour in Mexico to make pizza dough there, as I discussed in Replies 204 and 205 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg15668.html#msg15668. If that flour indeed is only enriched flour, then that might help explain why I did not get good crust coloration. I think I would add diastatic malt to help solve that problem, as well as other things as I discussed in Reply 205 referenced above.

To the above, I would add than the last time I was in Mexico I brought back an empty flour bag of another Mexican flour, the San Blas brand, that I used to make pizza dough while I was in Mexico. I have shown a photo below of the front of the bag. The ingredients list reads as follows: Harina de trigo, aditivos (Acido ascorbico, enzimas, peroxido de benzollo), hierro, zinc, niacina (Vitamina B₁, riboflavina (Vitamin B₂,y acido folico. I ran the Spanish text through the Google translator and got the following: Wheat flour, additives (ascorbic acid, enzymes, benzollo peroxide), iron, zinc, niacin (Vitamin B1, Riboflavin (Vitamin B2, and folic acid. The only possible offending ingredient that I can see in that list is the benzoil peroxide.

I also tried another Mexican flour to make pizza dough during my last trip to Mexico, but the dough I made was frozen for future use. I was later told that that the dough was even better than the one made with the San Blas flour. I will have to try to see if I can get the name of that flour and the ingredients list for the flour. It was purchased in a small village mini-store as are very common in Mexico, as you know since you are in Bucerias.

Don, the bottom line on this matter seems to be that the Mexican flours you have been using are not bromated but may contain other things that are not the best to use to feed your sourdough cultures.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

I spit the starter, put it in a new container and have fed it. I'll see if this starter becomes more active quicker than my starters did yesterday.

Norma,

Is spit the secret ingredient you are now using in your starters  . I'm sorry, but that ingredient is not in the preferment dough calculating tool.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

Is spit the secret ingredient you are now using in your starters  . I'm sorry, but that ingredient is not in the preferment dough calculating tool.

Peter

Peter,

LOL, that is a spelling error.  I will edit it.  I know that ingredient isn't in the preferment dough calculating tool.  I would never put spit in with my dough.   

I am going to take a picture of my starter in a few minutes.  It is active and alive today, so I guess I will be able to use this sour dough starter today to make a dough. 

Norma

[norma427]

This how my active starter looks after 2 hrs. 3 minutes.  The ingredients in this picture is what I am going to use for the sour dough.  I am changing to natural sea salt and also am going to use KASL.  I am going to try to find the coolest place to put the dough after it is mixed.  I have taken the temperatures around my place, with an IR gun and most of the temperatures are between 81-85 degrees F.  I am going to put the bulk dough near an air-conditioning vent.  If someone came in my place and saw I had dough sitting near a vent, they would wonder about me. 

Picture below

Norma

[Pete-zza]

I would never put spit in with my dough. 

Norma,

In case you change your mind, you might try this version of the basic Lehmann dough formulation you have been using but substituting your "enhanced" sourdough starter, in poolish form, for the IDY:

Norma's Spit Version of Lehmann NY Style Dough Formulation Using Natural Ischia Preferment

Total Formula: King Arthur Sir Lancelot Flour (100%): Water (61%): RealSalt Sea Salt (1.75%): Spit* Total (162.75%): Single Ball: Ischia Preferment (Natural Poolish): King Arthur Sir Lancelot Flour: Water: Total: Final Dough: King Arthur Sir Lancelot Flour: Water: RealSalt Sea Salt: Ischia Preferment (Natural Poolish): Spit* Total:

1777.45 g  |  62.7 oz | 3.92 lbs 1084.25 g  |  38.25 oz | 2.39 lbs 31.11 g | 1.1 oz | 0.07 lbs | 5.57 tsp | 1.86 tbsp 3 g. | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp 2892.8 g | 102.04 oz | 6.38 lbs | TF = 0.1015 578.56 g | 20.41 oz | 1.28 lbs     127.89 g | 4.51 oz | 0.28 lbs 127.89 g | 4.51 oz | 0.28 lbs 255.79 g | 9.02 oz | 0.56 lbs   1649.56 g | 58.19 oz | 3.64 lbs 956.35 g | 33.73 oz | 2.11 lbs 31.11 g | 1.1 oz | 0.07 lbs | 5.57 tsp | 1.86 tbsp 255.79 g | 9.02 oz | 0.56 lbs 3 g. | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp 2892.8 g | 102.04 oz | 6.38 lbs  | TF = 0.1015

* This is for Norma's spit; for other spits, MMV (mileage may vary)
Note: Dough is for five dough balls for five 16" pizzas; nominal thickness factor = 0.10; the natural poolish represents 14.3908% of the Total Formula Flour; percent of water used in the poolish = 50%; the poolish is about one cup; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%;

If you decide to try this version, I hope you will report back on your results. That is how we all learn.

Peter

[PizzaPolice]

Funny, Pete.  Should one adjust the water to accommodate the spit or just rock on with with it as is?

[Pete-zza]

Funny, Pete.  Should one adjust the water to accommodate the spit or just rock on with with it as is?

PizzaPolice,

You are really on top of things. I'm impressed. Human spit, or saliva, comprises 98% water, with the rest consisting of other compounds such as electrolytes, mucus, antibacterial compounds, and various enzymes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saliva). Technically, I should have reduced the formula water by a bit less than one teaspoon but I didn't want to complicate matters by doing so.

Peter

[s00da]

Norma, your starter looks mighty active  good luck with the dough

[norma427]

Peter, Pizza Police, and Saad,

I had to almost fall off my chair when I read this past few posts.  You guys sure are humorous.   

Peter,

The formula you set-forth with the spit sure looks good, but I had already figured out a formula with the spit sour dough starter for one dough ball on the preferment calculating tool and made that bulk dough. I had to run some errands then and when I came back and read this, I now wish I would have waited to make my sour dough.  At least my one dough ball will be authentic in two ways.  I used the spit sour dough starter with the All Natural Sea Salt.  The All Natural Sea Salt says on the ingredients only one thing.  “Ancient Sea Salt” At least that should mean something.  Did you ever make a spit dough formula before?  The more I read the formula, the more I laughed.  Especially the part about Norma’s spit and MMV.

I will make the formula you set-forth next week probably on a Friday, so I can use my commercial mixer and if the dough balls seem to ferment too much, (which they probably will)  I will then freeze them until the following Tuesday.  We all should learn from this, hopefully.

Picture below of bulk dough and picture of where I am keeping the bulk dough.  In my living room on an upturned stainless steel kettle right over my one air-conditioning vent.

Thanks for the laughs and the spit sour dough formula.

Norma

PizzaPolice,

You are also funny and had me laughing, too.  I am also impressed how up on things you are with all your knowledge.

Thanks you for the laughs, too. 

Saad,

Thanks for saying the sour dough starter looks mighty active and good luck with my dough.  It must be the KASL that has something magical in it.  Either that or I was lucky.  You are the only sane one here.

Norma

[Jackie Tran]

Norma, sorry it's taken me a bit to reply.  I found a workable conversion for the starter I made and ADY some time ago.  You can read about it here if you'd like.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10658.0.html

The conversion was about 9% starter (of the flour weight) is equivalent to ADY 0.45% (of the flour weight).  I would imagine that a simple approximation of 10% starter would be ~ to 0.5% ADY.
This is just a very loose approximation, keeping in mine that starters can vary widely in leavening power.

In my experiment, I cold fermented the doughs for 4 days but this experiment can easily be reproduced in a matter of hours with a higher % of starter and yeast (ADY or IDY). 

Using the conversion factors for IDY and ADY found here (per Peter) http://www.theartisan.net/convert_yeast_two.htm  I was able to determine that 0.318% IDY would be equivalent to 0.44% ADY.  So I would say that 0.3% IDY is equivalent to 9% starter. 

You can use that conversion to determine any amount of starter needed by doing some simple multiplying and dividing.  For example...

9% starter        X
---------- =  -------
0.3% IDY         0.6% IDY            X= 18% (of the total flour weight). 

To reproduce this experiment in a matter of 4 hours or so.  I would make up a batch of dough for 2-4 small tester doughballs.  I would then mix only the flour and water and allow it to autolyse for 20-30m. 
Then divide into 2-4 doughballs.   You can hand mix/knead 2 doughballs at a time after you sprinkle in the appropriate amount of salt and add either IDY, ADY, or Active starter.    I would use around 0.6% ADY for a 4 hour room temp rise and the appropriate amount of IDY or starter. 

You could monitor your dough's progress using the poppyseed method (per member November) and make adjustments to dial in the conversion factor with subsequent tests. 

Despite using different starters now, I still use that conversion factor listed above and have been satisfied doing so.   It's not exact but it's a decent estimation. Good luck Norma. 

Chau

Ok -fixed the numbers.  I had the decimals in the wrong place.  That should be correct now.  Let me know if it doesn't seem right.   

[norma427]

Jackie Tran,

No need to apologize.  Thank you for the link you referenced.

I know starters can vary widely in leavening power, although I never tried any experiments on them myself.  I appreciated how you went into detailed explanation of how you figure this all out.  Like I have said many times, my weakest skills are math.  I wish I would understand math more. That sure would help in my pizza making skills and knowing what to do.  When I first came on this forum and saw all went into making a pizza, with all those math skills, it seemed overwhelming to me. 

I did use the “poppy seed trick” to monitor a lot of my dough balls, but all my poppy seeds are at market.  I will make sure to use some poppy seeds next week to be able to measure how much the dough balls ferment.

Thanks for all your help and the good luck. 

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Actually, in the dough formulation I gave you, there is a "stealth" dough formulation and it is this one (there's got to be a pony in there somewhere, right?):

Total Formula: King Arthur Sir Lancelot Flour (100%): Water (61%): RealSalt Sea Salt (1.75%): Total (162.75%): Single Ball: Ischia Preferment (Natural Poolish): King Arthur Sir Lancelot Flour: Water: Total: Final Dough: King Arthur Sir Lancelot Flour: Water: RealSalt Sea Salt: Ischia Preferment (Natural Poolish): Total:

1777.45 g  |  62.7 oz | 3.92 lbs 1084.25 g  |  38.25 oz | 2.39 lbs 31.11 g | 1.1 oz | 0.07 lbs | 5.57 tsp | 1.86 tbsp 2892.8 g | 102.04 oz | 6.38 lbs | TF = 0.1015 578.56 g | 20.41 oz | 1.28 lbs     127.89 g | 4.51 oz | 0.28 lbs 127.89 g | 4.51 oz | 0.28 lbs 255.79 g | 9.02 oz | 0.56 lbs   1649.56 g | 58.19 oz | 3.64 lbs 956.35 g | 33.73 oz | 2.11 lbs 31.11 g | 1.1 oz | 0.07 lbs | 5.57 tsp | 1.86 tbsp 255.79 g | 9.02 oz | 0.56 lbs 2892.8 g | 102.04 oz | 6.38 lbs  | TF = 0.1015

Note: Dough is for five dough balls for five 16" pizzas; nominal thickness factor = 0.10; the natural poolish represents 14.3908% of the Total Formula Flour; percent of water used in the poolish = 50%; the poolish is about one cup; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

I came up with the above dough formulation on the presumption that you might want to test it out at market at some point. So the Total Dough Formula is your basic Lehmann dough formulation but without commercial yeast (IDY). In order to determine how much of the Ischia poolish preferment you would need, as a percentage of the Total Formula Flour, I used the rough conversion factor given at http://www.sourdoughhome.com/convert.html (Mike's Simplistic Conversion Technique) that says that one cup of active sourdough starter has about the same rise potential as a package of yeast. Interestingly, when I came up with the Total Formula but using your normal 0.40% IDY, the amount of IDY came to exactly 0.25 ounces. That is what a packet of yeast weighs. So, I simply used the conversion that Ed Wood's book gives for one cup of sourdough starter, which is 9 ounces for one cup of sourdough starter. That weight is identical for both the "liquid" preferment and the "poolish" preferment. Maybe once Chau has had a chance to revisit his numbers, you might be able to fine tune the numbers I used or correct them if they are too rough.

What I don't know is how the above dough formulation will work in practice under your operating conditions. Once the dough is programmed in accordance with the above dough formulation and exposed to your particular range of ambient temperatures, it will have a mind of its own and it will do what it wants, much like an unruly child, without regard for what you would like it to do. So, that means having to monitor the progress of the dough and take action when it reaches a particular condition, such as a doubling. Maybe at that point the bulk dough can be divided and subjected to another rise, or maybe the divided dough balls can go into the refrigerator, before or after another rise, until you deem them ready to be used.

Once you have the dough formulation you would like to use for five dough balls for five 16" pizzas and you actually make pizzas with them, you might want to start a new thread so that this thread is limited to the starter/preferment aspects of your new starters.

Peter

EDIT (3/5/22): For the Wayback Machine version of the above inoperative sourdoughhome link, see https://web.archive.org/web/20100722072223/http://www.sourdoughhome.com/convert.html

[norma427]

Peter,

You are right, there is always some kind of pony involved.  I do want to test the formula you set-forth for sour dough without using IDY for the Lehmann dough.  Thanks for the link for (Mike’s Simplistic Conversion Technique.  It is interesting that the weight is identical for both the “liquid” preferment and the “poolish” preferment, when using 0.40% IDY. 

I can understand I will need to monitor what is going on with this sour dough formula, both in bulk rising and also if I decide to do a second rise before cold fermenting. That is what I plan to do, but will see what happens.  Since all this is new to me and my ambient temperatures at market can vary widely, I will have to experiment with this for awhile to see what happens.  My sour dough I made today, I can watch, but there is a great difference in my home temperatures and market temperatures.  I don’t know if I will be able to pull this off, but will try.  I would like to get the best tasting crust at market, so maybe this could be a step in the right direction.  Only time will tell, like always.  There are always a lot of kinks and twists and turns before I will know if a sour dough pizza will work out at market. 

I will think about how I might go about all this and use the “poppy seed trick” next week after I have the dough bulk fermented and then formed into dough balls.  This should be another interesting experiment.

I can see after I test this formula, I should start a new thread.  Where would I post that thread?  Under general pizza making or Sourdough Starter for the Lehmann dough under the NY style?

Thanks for your help,

Norma

[Pete-zza]

I can see after I test this formula, I should start a new thread.  Where would I post that thread?  Under general pizza making or Sourdough Starter for the Lehmann dough under the NY style?

Norma,

I think I would start a new thread in the NY style board, just as you did with your commercial preferment version of the Lehmann NY style dough formulation. It is part of the evolution of your Lehmann NY style from the straight Lehmann NY style dough formulation (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8341.0.html), to the commercial preferment version (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.0.html) and now to a natural preferment version.

Peter

[norma427]

This is a picture of how my sour dough bulk ferment is going.  The dough is still sitting right above my air-conditioning vent. The places where the dough looks uneven is where I touched the dough a few times.  The dough feels sticky, but I guess not too much. The dough has been bulk fermenting for 8 hours.  The dough smells great.  This sour dough is going to eventually make a 14" pizza on my soapstone, in my home oven, if everything goes okay. 

I will take another picture of the dough ball tomorrow morning.

Norma

[norma427]

I looked at my sour dough that was bulk fermenting first thing when I awoke this morning.  It looked to have risen considerably.  I then thought, since I don’t know how long I should bulk ferment this dough or what it should look like before balling, I couldn’t decide whether to let it bulk ferment for longer or ball the bulk fermented dough. I decided I would just ball the bulk fermented dough. The bulk dough was removed from the container and stretched and folded a couple of times.  I rolled the dough ball in a little flour, cleaned out the container and placed it back in the container.  I am going to watch and see how much this dough expands.  I am not sure how much this dough ball should expand, but if it seems to expand too much, then I will refrigerate it until I am ready to make the pizza, later on today.

The dough feels nice and soft and smells great.  The stickiness I felt on the dough last evening seems to have disappeared.  It still is a little tacky, but nothing like when I touched it last evening.

These 3 pictures are of how the bulk dough looked this morning, picture taken outside.  Underneath of bulk fermented dough, and picture of floured dough ball. 

If anyone has any ideas if I am going about this right or wrong, let me know what I should be doing differently.

Thanks,

Norma

[Matthew]

I looked at my sour dough that was bulk fermenting first thing when I awoke this morning.  It looked to have risen considerably.  I then thought, since I don’t know how long I should bulk ferment this dough or what it should look like before balling, I couldn’t decide whether to let it bulk ferment for longer or ball the bulk fermented dough. I decided I would just ball the bulk fermented dough. The bulk dough was removed from the container and stretched and folded a couple of times.  I rolled the dough ball in a little flour, cleaned out the container and placed it back in the container.  I am going to watch and see how much this dough expands.  I am not sure how much this dough ball should expand, but if it seems to expand too much, then I will refrigerate it until I am ready to make the pizza, later on today.

The dough feels nice and soft and smells great.  The stickiness I felt on the dough last evening seems to have disappeared.  It still is a little tacky, but nothing like when I touched it last evening.

These 3 pictures are of how the bulk dough looked this morning, picture taken outside.  Underneath of bulk fermented dough, and picture of floured dough ball. 

If anyone has any ideas if I am going about this right or wrong, let me know what I should be doing differently.

Thanks,

Norma

I typically do the 2nd (balled) fermentation for 4-6 hours but have let it go longer without any issues.  If your going to use it later on today I wouldn't refrigerate it.

Matt

[norma427]

I typically do the 2nd (balled) fermentation for 4-6 hours but have let it go longer without any issues.  If your going to use it later on today I wouldn't refrigerate it.

Matt

Matt,

Thanks for telling me how long you do the second ferment.    I am going to use this dough ball later today, but won't the dough ball overferment, if I let it out at room temperature too long?

Thanks,

Norma

[Matthew]

Matt,

Thanks for telling me how long you do the second ferment.    I am going to use this dough ball later today, but won't the dough ball overferment, if I let it out at room temperature too long?

Thanks,

Norma

You should be fine, I have never experienced any over fermentation.  The longer it goes the more flavor will develop.  As a matter of fact, I let my last batch go for 6 hours at room temperature & 2 hours at 85 degrees.  The flavor was superb.  I let it go even longer when making bread.  I'm not sure how much starter you used & the potency of your starter so your results will likely be different than mine.  Just keep an eye on it & don't worry about it to much.  Only call 911 if your dough collapses.

Matt

[norma427]

Matt,

I can understand more flavor will develop, but I am concerned about since you use “00" flour and I used KASL flour in this sour dough, that “00" flour seems to have a lower amylase enzyme activity with lower amount of starch damage.  My ambient room temperature aren’t really cool this time of year.  I am worried there won’t be enough of residual sugar left and my dough might become unmanageable.  I also am only going to be baking in my home oven.  Just since I balled the bulk fermented dough it has risen to almost double in size.  I used 5% starter for my formula and will post the formula I used later today. I am not sure of the potency of my starter either, because I just activated them last week. My salt amounts I used aren’t that high either so, they also won’t delay fermentation in my opinion.  I am just trying to understand sour dough and how it behaves.  I don’t want to have to call 911 forum control, but might need to. 

Thanks, 

Norma