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Author Topic: Avoiding large air pockets forming under the dough  (Read 1075 times)

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Offline jsobolew

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Avoiding large air pockets forming under the dough
« on: June 16, 2022, 03:43:21 PM »
Hi, I'm trying to use my same dough recipe that I use with my round pies at my pop-up. I've used this dough with great results for thousands of pizzas but I'm trying to offer some square pies now without having to make a separate dough. What I do is a par-bake and chill the day before serving, then top and reheat before serving. My trouble is that during the park-bake, my square pizzas will develop large air pockets under the dough between the dough and pan and they rise off the pan. I try to pop them but they are filled with steam and difficult to fully deflate. This causes an uneven bake where large portions of the dough didn't make contact with the pan. I like and encourage bubbles in the dough, like a focaccia but I can't tolerate these big air pockets where the bottom isn't getting properly baked. Any ideas on how to avoid this without docking?

My dough:
50/50 CM 00, GM Harvest King flour
69% hydration
2% salt
2% oil
7.5% sourdough
Bulked at RT for about 6hrs, then balled and refrigerated for 24-48hrs. Then removed from fridge and proofed in the pans for about 2-4 hours (depending on weather) until I can get them to easily fill the pans and get a little rising activity. I bake for about 15 mins and I usually add some cheese and sauce part way through the par-bake (making it a partial par-bake?) but I haven't fully developed my technique with this yet.

Offline Pizza_Not_War

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Re: Avoiding large air pockets forming under the dough
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2022, 03:48:41 PM »
Pan type and baking surface are two things that cause air pockets on my pan pizza. Never have issue in carbon steel pan on baking steel.

Offline jsobolew

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Re: Avoiding large air pockets forming under the dough
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2022, 04:01:46 PM »
Pan type and baking surface are two things that cause air pockets on my pan pizza. Never have issue in carbon steel pan on baking steel.

I have Lloyd's aluminum pans and I use a cordierite stone in a conventional oven.

Offline gdepozsgay

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Re: Avoiding large air pockets forming under the dough
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2022, 04:31:02 PM »
Poking holes with a fork before par bake all over the surface helps. Also need to brush with a water diluted sauce mixture helps. My $0.02.
George

Offline Pizza_Not_War

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Re: Avoiding large air pockets forming under the dough
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2022, 05:07:51 PM »
I have Lloyd's aluminum pans and I use a cordierite stone in a conventional oven.
I am home cook so not a lot of volume but aluminum is usually a fail vs steel success.

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Offline HansB

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Re: Avoiding large air pockets forming under the dough
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2022, 05:28:05 PM »
I have Lloyd's aluminum pans and I use a cordierite stone in a conventional oven.

I don't think it's the pan, it's how you pan the dough. I bake DS in Lloyds and steel pans side by side, there is very little difference in the bakes.
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"The most important element of pizza is the dough. Pizza is bread after all. Bread with toppings." -Brian Spangler

"Ultimately, pizza is a variety of condiments on top of bread. If I wanted to evolve, I figured out that I had to understand bread and first make the best bread I possibly could. Only then could my pizza evolve as well." Dan Richer

Offline jsobolew

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Re: Avoiding large air pockets forming under the dough
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2022, 05:53:54 PM »
I don't think it's the pan, it's how you pan the dough. I bake DS in Lloyds and steel pans side by side, there is very little difference in the bakes.
I've heard people say to do the full proof in the pan instead of balling in another container. While this method is not really space efficient for my limited refrigeration, do you do something similar? How do you pan your dough?

Offline HansB

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Re: Avoiding large air pockets forming under the dough
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2022, 08:35:21 PM »
I've heard people say to do the full proof in the pan instead of balling in another container. While this method is not really space efficient for my limited refrigeration, do you do something similar? How do you pan your dough?

I do proof in the pan. If you don't you have to be careful that you lay the dough into the pan without any air between the dough and pan. Docking does help and really won't reduce the airiness of the finished crust.

You can see in post #532 https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=42012.532

This was a par-baked crust that I docked.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2022, 08:39:45 PM by HansB »
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"The most important element of pizza is the dough. Pizza is bread after all. Bread with toppings." -Brian Spangler

"Ultimately, pizza is a variety of condiments on top of bread. If I wanted to evolve, I figured out that I had to understand bread and first make the best bread I possibly could. Only then could my pizza evolve as well." Dan Richer

Offline Andrew t

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Re: Avoiding large air pockets forming under the dough
« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2022, 09:41:49 PM »
I do pop-ups with a simular formula (70% hydro 2% oil, IDY/not SD, CF 4-5 days).

I make Pala and DSP/Sicilian with it.

When I make Pala it's super light, bubbly, and crispy.

My process for parbake pan is slack balls (1-6 hours), pan, let rise 6-10 hours. parbake with jack on the edges @450 for 8 min (low fan convection), cool.

I too pocked bottoms. I like the crumb texture with this but it can casue me to have about 5% of the parbakes be so bubbly it's hard to use them. I've noticed the longer I slack then the tighter the crumb and less pocking on the bottom.

I think when the are fully proofed before streching they get degassed when panned. Then a full second rise with tighter crumb. More like a Sicilian than a Roman. When I strech/pan with less slack time they get are less degassed and retain larger bubbles.

I'm considering testing proofing in pan then degassing and reproofing to see the results. It might wokr better for my production process to extend the proof to 16 hours.

I have reballed or degased 4-7 day CF dough at least twice and it will  proof back up. It ends up with a tighter crumb but totally works. I got the idea from threds here about reballing and also the CPR method from Moderenst bread.

I'm still refining the produciton process. It's really a whole different time line and produciton even though the formula is the same.

If you look at what John and Chris do at Metro...it's a 61% hydro, they fully CF 4-5 days, slack 6 hours, pan and proof overnight before parbake. It has a pretty tight/uniform crumb and basically totally degassed when put in the pan.

You might just try really degassing it well when you pan it. 

I don't have a lot of SD experience so it might react differently than IDY.

Offline GumbaWill

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Re: Avoiding large air pockets forming under the dough
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2022, 05:23:27 AM »
 ^^^
Poking holes with a fork before par bake all over the surface helps. Also need to brush with a water diluted sauce mixture helps. My $0.02.

I am home cook so not a lot of volume but aluminum is usually a fail vs steel success.

 ^^^ To elaborate further, For bigger bubbles, I notice I gently lift the dough from the side closest to the air bibble then drop it down quickly. This usually releases the air out from under.

 I agree aluminum is sub-optimal. I can, and do make it work. it is the best option I could find in an uncoated 16X16 pan.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2022, 05:32:51 AM by GumbaWill »
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Offline scott r

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Re: Avoiding large air pockets forming under the dough
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2022, 07:30:21 AM »
I was recently visiting family and didnt have my pans with me. I had to use $8 thin shiny new aluminum sheet pans and the pizzas turned out perfect.  In fact one batch I made was probably the best squares I have ever made.   The pan is not the problem here.  I think square pizza can be made in any pan with some adjustments to oven placement.  All I had to do to get the aluminum to work for me was to keep the pizzas lower in the oven than usual. 

Offline HansB

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Re: Avoiding large air pockets forming under the dough
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2022, 09:27:39 AM »
I was recently visiting family and didnt have my pans with me. I had to use $8 thin shiny new aluminum sheet pans and the pizzas turned out perfect.  In fact one batch I made was probably the best squares I have ever made.   The pan is not the problem here.  I think square pizza can be made in any pan with some adjustments to oven placement.  All I had to do to get the aluminum to work for me was to keep the pizzas lower in the oven than usual.

^^^
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"The most important element of pizza is the dough. Pizza is bread after all. Bread with toppings." -Brian Spangler

"Ultimately, pizza is a variety of condiments on top of bread. If I wanted to evolve, I figured out that I had to understand bread and first make the best bread I possibly could. Only then could my pizza evolve as well." Dan Richer

Offline texmex

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Re: Avoiding large air pockets forming under the dough
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2022, 10:33:37 AM »
What are you using to oil the pan before stretching it? I find that liquid fats do not allow the dough to adhere well to the pan, but hard fats create a symbiotic relationship with the dough, and it provides more tenacity.  Crisco or lard works great for my pan pizzas.
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Offline jsobolew

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Re: Avoiding large air pockets forming under the dough
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2022, 04:28:14 PM »
What are you using to oil the pan before stretching it? I find that liquid fats do not allow the dough to adhere well to the pan, but hard fats create a symbiotic relationship with the dough, and it provides more tenacity.  Crisco or lard works great for my pan pizzas.
I use olive oil. I have heard great things about using Crisco and while it may be functionally better, I would prefer to not use hydrogenated oils.

I think the tip about lifting up the dough and laying it back down to remove the air underneath might be the ticket for me.

Offline Pizza_Not_War

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Re: Avoiding large air pockets forming under the dough
« Reply #14 on: June 20, 2022, 05:10:49 PM »
They do sell non hydrogenated shortening if you want to try it. I have a tub of it that I use if I recently seasoned a pan.

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Offline HansB

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Re: Avoiding large air pockets forming under the dough
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2022, 06:45:30 PM »
I use olive oil. I have heard great things about using Crisco and while it may be functionally better, I would prefer to not use hydrogenated oils.

I think the tip about lifting up the dough and laying it back down to remove the air underneath might be the ticket for me.

It only takes about a 1/4 teaspoon of Crisco for an 8X10" pan and works much better than oil.
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"The most important element of pizza is the dough. Pizza is bread after all. Bread with toppings." -Brian Spangler

"Ultimately, pizza is a variety of condiments on top of bread. If I wanted to evolve, I figured out that I had to understand bread and first make the best bread I possibly could. Only then could my pizza evolve as well." Dan Richer

Offline GumbaWill

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Re: Avoiding large air pockets forming under the dough
« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2022, 09:57:32 PM »
It only takes about a 1/4 teaspoon of Crisco for an 8X10" pan and works much better than oil.

I use olive oil. I have heard great things about using Crisco and while it may be functionally better, I would prefer to not use hydrogenated oils.


I am going to try Crisco for my next siciliano pizza bake.
On my Father's day Siciliano, I switched from olive oil to an oil with a higher flash point (Avacado) I didn't notice any difference.
Today I oiled/heated/cooled my 16X16 aluminum pan a few times. The only problem I had with it so far is spilled dripped sauce sticking to the pan. The dough base comes out like a charm. I may season it a couple more times tomorrow, for whatever reason some spots are not browning?
Will Falzon
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Offline jsobolew

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Re: Avoiding large air pockets forming under the dough
« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2022, 05:10:54 PM »
So far it looks like my options are either one or a combination of these, arranged in order of simplicity:

-Lift the dough and set it down gently to remove any air trapped under the dough.

-Dock the dough or puncture it with a fork.

-Use crisco or some other non-hydrogenated shortening.

-Proof the dough in the pan for a longer amount of time.

I'm making 6 pizzas tomorrow and I will try some of these suggestions out and report back although I wonder about the crisco recommendation. Once the pan heats up, it's going to melt into a liquid oil so what's holding the dough down? I can only imagine that it just keeps the air bubbles from forming when you are proofing in the pan by holding the dough down before it melts?

Offline foreplease

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Re: Avoiding large air pockets forming under the dough
« Reply #18 on: June 24, 2022, 09:43:48 AM »
…although I wonder about the crisco recommendation. Once the pan heats up, it's going to melt into a liquid oil so what's holding the dough down? I can only imagine that it just keeps the air bubbles from forming when you are proofing in the pan by holding the dough down before it melts?
Yes. I believe gravity will hold it down from there. Try it and let us know.
-Tony

Offline jsobolew

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Re: Avoiding large air pockets forming under the dough
« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2022, 09:44:56 PM »
Yesterday I baked 6 pizzas with Spectrum brand vegetable shortening in my Lloyd’s pans. I didn’t measure but I probably used about a tablespoon per 12x18 pan. It really did help the dough keep its shape and not shrink back while proofing in the pan. I also added some olive oil around the edges before baking. They were some of the best baked I’ve done in this style and I did not have this same problem again. I sold them all by the slice to my pop-up customers and they were gone in 2 hours. I can’t say whether or not it was the shortening or the longer pan proof or a combination of both. I didn’t do a control with just olive oil. Also my dough has been doing really well with the warmer weather recently. Anyhow, I plan to continue with the shortening.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2022, 11:34:14 AM by Pete-zza »

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