Pizza Making Forum

Pizza Making => Specialty-Grain Pizzas => Topic started by: Shawn W on July 12, 2015, 08:43:24 AM

Title: Whole Wheat for NY thin crust style?
Post by: Shawn W on July 12, 2015, 08:43:24 AM
I'm not sure how I feel about this cook I posted on my Big Steel Keg forum. I took a NY style recipe I got from Bryan S (who said he spent a couple of years here developing it) a number of years ago and made it whole wheat. The initial ball looked dry and 'torn'. I added some water then let the mixer beat the hell out of it to incorporate the added water into it. I love the flavor of WW, but my crust just wasn't the same texture as white flour pies I have made. Could I have done something better or is it just the nature of WW vs. white flour?


[10 day cold ferment] Day 10 is FINALLY here! On parchment on a pizza screen (punched holes type) 550F 14 minutes on top rack with a BGE stone on the CI grate. This was a runny dough ... had to work fast (it didn't help it was 30C in my kitchen 0.0), used the steering wheel method to stretch, then onto parchment to finish stretching, round up and roll the rim. Then transfer to screen. Made two 16": pepperoni, sliced garlic, crimini 'shrooms and red bell pepper as well as a pesto, smoked chicken breast and sun-dried tomato pizza. The placement of the pan messed with my keg therm. Good thing I had it well stabilized for about an hour [at 600F] before I cooked them because the keg therm was showing 375F after I put them on so I can only guestimate they cooked between 525F and 575F for the majority of the cook.

http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww154/shawnwBBQ/2015%20WW%20NY%20Pizza/20150710_191716_zpspadzwstr.jpg (http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww154/shawnwBBQ/2015%20WW%20NY%20Pizza/20150710_191716_zpspadzwstr.jpg)

http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww154/shawnwBBQ/2015%20WW%20NY%20Pizza/20150710_193947_zpsb4o0uhco.jpg (http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww154/shawnwBBQ/2015%20WW%20NY%20Pizza/20150710_193947_zpsb4o0uhco.jpg)

http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww154/shawnwBBQ/2015%20WW%20NY%20Pizza/20150710_195314_zps9jzlhpm3.jpg (http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww154/shawnwBBQ/2015%20WW%20NY%20Pizza/20150710_195314_zps9jzlhpm3.jpg)

(On Dinner Plate BTW)
http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww154/shawnwBBQ/2015%20WW%20NY%20Pizza/20150710_200110_zpsjoob1nvz.jpg (http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww154/shawnwBBQ/2015%20WW%20NY%20Pizza/20150710_200110_zpsjoob1nvz.jpg)

http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww154/shawnwBBQ/2015%20WW%20NY%20Pizza/20150710_195825_zpszyjasks6.jpg (http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww154/shawnwBBQ/2015%20WW%20NY%20Pizza/20150710_195825_zpszyjasks6.jpg)

http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww154/shawnwBBQ/2015%20WW%20NY%20Pizza/20150710_200122_zpsugjglq6q.jpg (http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww154/shawnwBBQ/2015%20WW%20NY%20Pizza/20150710_200122_zpsugjglq6q.jpg)

http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww154/shawnwBBQ/2015%20WW%20NY%20Pizza/20150710_200430_zpsxro1duru.jpg (http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww154/shawnwBBQ/2015%20WW%20NY%20Pizza/20150710_200430_zpsxro1duru.jpg)

http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww154/shawnwBBQ/2015%20WW%20NY%20Pizza/20150710_201048_zpsg1qt20ib.jpg (http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww154/shawnwBBQ/2015%20WW%20NY%20Pizza/20150710_201048_zpsg1qt20ib.jpg)

http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww154/shawnwBBQ/2015%20WW%20NY%20Pizza/20150710_201007_zps0fmz5lbs.jpg (http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww154/shawnwBBQ/2015%20WW%20NY%20Pizza/20150710_201007_zps0fmz5lbs.jpg)

http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww154/shawnwBBQ/2015%20WW%20NY%20Pizza/20150710_202630_zps0rmo8426.jpg (http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww154/shawnwBBQ/2015%20WW%20NY%20Pizza/20150710_202630_zps0rmo8426.jpg)

http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww154/shawnwBBQ/2015%20WW%20NY%20Pizza/20150710_202636_zpskenpwldg.jpg (http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww154/shawnwBBQ/2015%20WW%20NY%20Pizza/20150710_202636_zpskenpwldg.jpg)

http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww154/shawnwBBQ/2015%20WW%20NY%20Pizza/20150710_203237_zpstxb9dfdq.jpg (http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww154/shawnwBBQ/2015%20WW%20NY%20Pizza/20150710_203237_zpstxb9dfdq.jpg)

http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww154/shawnwBBQ/2015%20WW%20NY%20Pizza/20150710_203245_zpseqplnwd5.jpg (http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww154/shawnwBBQ/2015%20WW%20NY%20Pizza/20150710_203245_zpseqplnwd5.jpg)

http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww154/shawnwBBQ/2015%20WW%20NY%20Pizza/20150710_203745_zpscovivutf.jpg (http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww154/shawnwBBQ/2015%20WW%20NY%20Pizza/20150710_203745_zpscovivutf.jpg)

I let the second one go two extra minutes and bottom was a bit more firm. I preferred the 14 minute crust.
http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww154/shawnwBBQ/2015%20WW%20NY%20Pizza/20150710_203839_zpsoajqw42a.jpg (http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww154/shawnwBBQ/2015%20WW%20NY%20Pizza/20150710_203839_zpsoajqw42a.jpg)


I am thinking to try a 50%WW, 50% white version. ?
Title: Re: Whole Wheat for NY thin crust style?
Post by: theppgcowboy on July 12, 2015, 04:07:51 PM
I love WW but it is what it is and we grind our own for bread but cannot make it work for pizza.  Wheat Montana makes a WW flour that is almost as easy to work as white flour if you are looking 100% WW.
Title: Re: Whole Wheat for NY thin crust style?
Post by: Shawn W on July 13, 2015, 01:12:38 AM
I love WW but it is what it is and we grind our own for bread but cannot make it work for pizza.  Wheat Montana makes a WW flour that is almost as easy to work as white flour if you are looking 100% WW.
Kinda how I'm feeling about it too. I'll try 50/50 WW and unbleached white and see where that takes me. Thanks for the response!
Title: Re: Whole Wheat for NY thin crust style?
Post by: David Esq. on July 13, 2015, 05:18:28 AM
You will barely even know there's WW in it. And if you use white whole wheat you may not know at all.
Title: Re: Whole Wheat for NY thin crust style?
Post by: deb415611 on July 13, 2015, 09:06:32 PM
You will barely even know there's WW in it. And if you use white whole wheat you may not know at all.

interesting, apparently I have been doing it wrong because I used ww and www quite a bit for a few years and I always knew it was there.  I made an acceptable pizza but never one I would term NY, it was what it was , whole wheat , even at a lower percentage.  What is your secret?

Title: Re: Whole Wheat for NY thin crust style?
Post by: mitchjg on July 13, 2015, 09:25:55 PM
I do not understand.  I have made numerous breads with white flour and numerous with a combination of white flour and WW (usually White Whole Wheat).  I always can tell the difference.......
Title: Whole Wheat for NY thin crust style?
Post by: David Esq. on July 13, 2015, 09:46:41 PM
My "secret" is not to throw away good dough, use fresh flour and a slightly higher hydration.
Title: Re: Whole Wheat for NY thin crust style?
Post by: deb415611 on July 13, 2015, 09:54:38 PM
My "secret" is not to throw away good dough, use fresh flour and a slightly higher hydration.

what does throwing away dough have to do with it?

yes, I agree that ww needs slightly higher hydration but that doesn't make a NY style pizza or a pizza that you can't taste the ww
Title: Re: Whole Wheat for NY thin crust style?
Post by: woodmakesitgood on July 13, 2015, 10:01:08 PM
I've made one pie with white ww dough...the crust had nice oven spring, a good looking crumb, nice browning.
But the texture and flavor was not to my taste, I could easily tell it was different.
I can't say exactly why it was displeasing except maybe to say there was a mealy quality to the texture.  :-\
Title: Re: Whole Wheat for NY thin crust style?
Post by: Shawn W on July 14, 2015, 02:36:24 AM
I've made one pie with white ww dough...the crust had nice oven spring, a good looking crumb, nice browning.
But the texture and flavor was not to my taste, I could easily tell it was different.
I can't say exactly why it was displeasing except maybe to say there was a mealy quality to the texture.  :-\
That's my experience exactly. I'm in Canada, I bought a fresh bag of WW flour.
Title: Re: Whole Wheat for NY thin crust style?
Post by: Shawn W on July 14, 2015, 02:47:48 AM
My "secret" is not to throw away good dough, use fresh flour and a slightly higher hydration.
That looks great!

This was my base for my unbleached white dough:
800g flour
470g water
22g salt
3g IDY
2T olive oil

Now, for the WW version, when the initial ball had formed it looked dry and torn. So I added 20g of water then beat the crap out of it until the water had reincorporated. After a 10 day cold ferment it was sticky, runny, then the 14 minute pie was fairly good, the 16 minute crust was kind of tough ... cracker-ish. They both had that whole wheat 'bitter'.

So I recognize it was over-mixed, instead of 20g what would you suggest for higher hydration initially for WW?

Thanks for the help!

No [IMG] tag??
Title: Whole Wheat for NY thin crust style?
Post by: David Esq. on July 14, 2015, 05:48:48 AM
Deb, what throwing away dough has to do with it is that you are too quick to declare failure.
Shawn, the bitter is almost certainly due to some combination of using red wheat or rancid wheat. Whole wheat goes bad relatively quickly.  Because of that, I bought a mill and grind my own as needed.
In fact, if I make 100% whole wheat sourdough waffles, I get no bitterness at all.
Title: Re: Whole Wheat for NY thin crust style?
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on July 14, 2015, 06:23:27 AM
The reality is that whole wheat is whole wheat..it is obvious, you can taste it, you can tell the texture, the feel. 

Let me be clear that I really do like whole wheat..I really do, and the vast majority of bread that I make is WW. Sometimes adding some rye. Hearty, heavy, rich and flavorful. (I do love non-whole wheat bread..it has such a more airy , lighter, and let's face it, just plain more delicious and better texture and taste..but there is a noticeable waistline difference. I'm very aware that there's one one small letter that can change Jersey Pie Boy, into Jersey Pig Boy)

And I've very successfully made whole wheat "pizza."  I'm proud of what I turned out. Villa Roma formulation, help from barryvabeach. Goiod flavor, deep crust, lots of hydration (over 100 percent I believe and not easy to work with)

But is it pizza? Not to me. Nope. Something else entirely. When I want pizza, I want one of the many types that most members here make. And that means very definitely not whole wheat. Bitter, by the way, is a matter of personal preference, or possibly genetics I don't have nearly as much sensitivity to it as my wife. In fact, I like it to an extent. Pass the broccoli rabe, please.

So David, enjoy your whole wheat. Grind it, grow it and harvest the grains if you like. But please don't expect us to go with the theory that it's virtually the same as non-whole grain. It just ain't so

 
Title: Whole Wheat for NY thin crust style?
Post by: David Esq. on July 14, 2015, 07:52:30 AM
Theory is not what I'm after. I don't t think I suggested 100% whole wheat would make a good pizza. But 30-50%? It only makes the pizza taste better. Just like a longer ferment.
Title: Re: Whole Wheat for NY thin crust style?
Post by: deb415611 on July 14, 2015, 07:52:54 AM
Jersey Pie Boy's post is right in line with my thinking on whole wheat and pizza. 

Deb, what throwing away dough has to do with it is that you are too quick to declare failure.


that has nothing to do with this thread, that's another totally unrelated topic.  Trying to bring it in here just doesn't make sense, I'm answering out experience with whole wheat.  You have no idea if I have made 1 pizza  or 300 or tested ww pizza recipes and procedures for a cookbook, so don't be so quick to discount my answer as giving up



Title: Whole Wheat for NY thin crust style?
Post by: David Esq. on July 14, 2015, 08:10:46 AM
Shawn, try the formula with 50% whole wheat and 50% Caputo and 65% hydration.  Mix for a few minutes, rest, knead for 3-5 minutes, rest and one more knead. Ball and stick in the fridge.   If you want to go the extra mile, mix the flour and water by itself and let it sit for 30-60 minutes and then knead in the rest of the ingredients, rest, knead, rest, knead and ball.
Title: Re: Whole Wheat for NY thin crust style?
Post by: mitchjg on July 14, 2015, 09:31:59 AM
Shawn:

In reading this thread, I can see that you came here seeking to improve your 100% whole wheat pizza results.  It appears that you want to improve the texture and you want to improve the flavor (remove bitterness).

Assuming you want whole wheat in your pizza (for whatever reason floats your boat), then please do not assume that it will be the same, in flavor or texture, as a pizza made without whole wheat.  By going to 50% WW, You are eliminating a big chunk of the thing that was bothering you - so it will probably will please you more or displease you less.  It will be different.  Whether or not that pleases you is up to you.  The only way they will be the same (comparing to the pies you made without whole wheat) is if they are the same.  If you do not notice a difference, I am not sure why you would be bothering (unless it is for a difference you are seeking besides flavor and texture).

Sure, moving from 100% whole wheat to 50% whole wheat will change the result and change the texture you did not like (improve).  Using freshly ground and white whole wheat and other things may improve it further.  Starting from a base of 100% whole wheat and diluting the % whole wheat and "better" whole wheat will improve the texture since you are phasing out and improving the remaining whole wheat.  If your reach the point where it is pleasing you but it is still in there, great. 

Others here are telling you that, using a starting point of no whole wheat, adding whole wheat is a negative for taste and texture.  You, starting with 100% whole wheat will likely experience an improvement as you reduce it.

David believes he can help you get you to some place that is pleasing for you (or some level you want to settle with) with whole wheat in the pie.  Good luck.

Shifting gears, I can see you are baking pies in your Kamado grill.  You are getting a (somewhat surprisingly) even bake, top vs. bottom.  Quite unusual.  The problem with trying to make pizza in a Kamado grill is getting sufficient top heat.  It looks like you are offsetting the lack of top heat by cutting back on bottom heat with the use of a screen.

Unless your home oven is a problem for some reason, I would suggest you consider ditching using the Kamado.  You can read here in the forum about countless attempts to use one.  Everyone encounters the balancing issue because that it is how the grills are made (I have one, BTW).  They are not made for pizza with balanced heat generation.  Further, the amount of fuel you end up using is really, really high.  It is a great tool, just not a tool that is particularly compatible with good pizza.

If you use your home oven, with a decent pizza stone, you will probably find you can get can much better results than with the Kamado.  You are cooking in the 500s anyway and most ovens can achieve 500 or more.

Give it a try!
Title: Re: Whole Wheat for NY thin crust style?
Post by: theppgcowboy on July 14, 2015, 10:49:08 AM
I love whole wheat bread that is ground fresh from wheat.  We have magic mill and the bread is fantastic.  It takes a lot of white flour to bring it into the line for a pizza crust that is tolerable to work. A 70/30 ww/w will come close with an elevated hydration. 
Title: Re: Whole Wheat for NY thin crust style?
Post by: David Esq. on July 14, 2015, 11:37:56 AM
33% whole wheat pictured below and 50% pictures above. Since he suggested going 50/50 that is where I started. 
Title: Re: Whole Wheat for NY thin crust style?
Post by: theppgcowboy on July 14, 2015, 11:57:01 AM
Both look great!
Title: Re: Whole Wheat for NY thin crust style?
Post by: gfgman on July 14, 2015, 12:08:47 PM
(I do love non-whole wheat bread..it has such a more airy , lighter, and let's face it, just plain more delicious and better texture and taste..but there is a noticeable waistline difference. I'm very aware that there's one one small letter that can change Jersey Pie Boy, into Jersey Pig Boy)
Are you sure about the waistline thing?  I did a quick search on the fatsecret website, comparing white and wheat bread in various brands.  I'm finding that the wheat bread contains more calories.  Sometimes 40 to 60 calories more per two slices. 
Excessive consumption of pizza made from any flour will expand the waistline.  For consumption in moderation, I'm sticking with white flour.  :chef:
Title: Whole Wheat for NY thin crust style?
Post by: David Esq. on July 14, 2015, 12:30:26 PM
Try eating loaf of wonder. Then try a loaf of whole wheat. Remove the fiber and you can eat white bread all day long. Not so easy with the whole grain.
Title: Re: Whole Wheat for NY thin crust style?
Post by: deb415611 on July 14, 2015, 12:52:22 PM
All calories are not created equal   you can't compare something made from white flour to something made from whole wheat by looking strictly at calories. Your  body processes the flour differently (and it's not based on quantity consumed although you probably could eat more of the white)
Title: Re: Whole Wheat for NY thin crust style?
Post by: gfgman on July 14, 2015, 03:15:43 PM
True.  But the point is, if you burn off all the calories you take in on a daily basis, in terms of your waistline, it doesn't matter what type of flour the pizza calories come from.  If you taking in more calories than you burn off, and you are eating pizza you don't really like that is made with whole wheat, what's the point? 
I suppose my point was whether you are losing, maintaining, or gaining weight, you can eat white pizza if that is what you really like.  I do it multiple times per week.  I lost a good bit of weight years ago, and generally did not eat wheat or whole grain bread.  I still don't.  The only time I ate wheat was when I was eating PB&J on store brand light bread everyday, and the company stopped making a white variety. 
Title: Re: Whole Wheat for NY thin crust style?
Post by: David Esq. on July 14, 2015, 06:05:16 PM
You would be quite desperate to eat pizza you don't like.
Title: Re: Whole Wheat for NY thin crust style?
Post by: TXCraig1 on July 14, 2015, 06:14:10 PM
I like whole wheat...


In the form of whiskey  :-D
Title: Re: Whole Wheat for NY thin crust style?
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on July 14, 2015, 07:12:08 PM
 :-D
Title: Re: Whole Wheat for NY thin crust style?
Post by: David Esq. on July 14, 2015, 09:54:47 PM
Just had some 100% whole wheat sourdough waffles, fermenting since this morning. Can't abide the taste of whisky. But a Belgian waffle is another matter.
Title: Re: Whole Wheat for NY thin crust style?
Post by: Shawn W on July 15, 2015, 01:23:30 AM
Deb, what throwing away dough has to do with it is that you are too quick to declare failure.
Shawn, the bitter is almost certainly due to some combination of using red wheat or rancid wheat. Whole wheat goes bad relatively quickly.  Because of that, I bought a mill and grind my own as needed.
In fact, if I make 100% whole wheat sourdough waffles, I get no bitterness at all.
Darn, I just bought that bag .... but it was just store brand. I see Caputo further down in the responses. Robin Hood will probably be as good as I can find in my small town, but I will pick up something better when I get to the city. I admire your enthusiam ...  I think my inlaws still have a flour grinder I could try ... but in reality I'm probably not quite there yet  ;)
Title: Re: Whole Wheat for NY thin crust style?
Post by: Shawn W on July 15, 2015, 01:31:08 AM
Theory is not what I'm after. I don't t think I suggested 100% whole wheat would make a good pizza. But 30-50%? It only makes the pizza taste better. Just like a longer ferment.
I made sourdough bagels for a couple years, 50%ww, 50% unbleached white. Loved 'em.

So, my wife asked me to try because she avoids all flour in her diet but will eat some whole wheat, but I think I can sell her on 50/50.
Title: Re: Whole Wheat for NY thin crust style?
Post by: Shawn W on July 15, 2015, 01:41:49 AM
Shawn, try the formula with 50% whole wheat and 50% Caputo and 65% hydration.  Mix for a few minutes, rest, knead for 3-5 minutes, rest and one more knead. Ball and stick in the fridge.   If you want to go the extra mile, mix the flour and water by itself and let it sit for 30-60 minutes and then knead in the rest of the ingredients, rest, knead, rest, knead and ball.
right, I didn't mention the mix method in the base recipe I used. I normally use a KA stand mixer, mix just until a ball has formed, rest 15 minutes, then knead until smooth. How would your method differ in results? I was thinking to try attempt number two, just changing the flour (and not beating the crap out of it by deciding from appearance it needed more water) before I changed any other variables.
Title: Re: Whole Wheat for NY thin crust style?
Post by: Shawn W on July 15, 2015, 02:08:23 AM
Shawn:

In reading this thread, I can see that you came here seeking to improve your 100% whole wheat pizza results.  It appears that you want to improve the texture and you want to improve the flavor (remove bitterness).

Assuming you want whole wheat in your pizza (for whatever reason floats your boat), then please do not assume that it will be the same, in flavor or texture, as a pizza made without whole wheat.  By going to 50% WW, You are eliminating a big chunk of the thing that was bothering you - so it will probably will please you more or displease you less.  It will be different.  Whether or not that pleases you is up to you.  The only way they will be the same (comparing to the pies you made without whole wheat) is if they are the same.  If you do not notice a difference, I am not sure why you would be bothering (unless it is for a difference you are seeking besides flavor and texture).

Sure, moving from 100% whole wheat to 50% whole wheat will change the result and change the texture you did not like (improve).  Using freshly ground and white whole wheat and other things may improve it further.  Starting from a base of 100% whole wheat and diluting the % whole wheat and "better" whole wheat will improve the texture since you are phasing out and improving the remaining whole wheat.  If your reach the point where it is pleasing you but it is still in there, great. 

Others here are telling you that, using a starting point of no whole wheat, adding whole wheat is a negative for taste and texture.  You, starting with 100% whole wheat will likely experience an improvement as you reduce it.

David believes he can help you get you to some place that is pleasing for you (or some level you want to settle with) with whole wheat in the pie.  Good luck.
Thanks so much for your excellent response and time spent! As noted above in my responses made earlier, just a short while ago, my wife asked me to try 100% ww for dietary reasons, and, I personally liked 50/50 for my sourdough bagels.

What I wasn't clear about in my initial post was wondering about the reason for the texture issue. Was it the overmix/wrong hydration or is that's just how it is with WW? I'm not experienced at baking aside from diving deep and figuring out how to make great sourdough bagels and making the NY pie recipe I posted above each with consistent results for over a year. That's it. Because of the overmix on this attempt I just sort of mentally wrote off attempt #1 and will see how attempt #2 goes. Sorry I wasn't more clear. I come to the temple of pizza a humble beggar, asking for help on a topic I have merely borrowed knowledge on, not learned.


Shifting gears, I can see you are baking pies in your Kamado grill.  You are getting a (somewhat surprisingly) even bake, top vs. bottom.  Quite unusual.  The problem with trying to make pizza in a Kamado grill is getting sufficient top heat.  It looks like you are offsetting the lack of top heat by cutting back on bottom heat with the use of a screen.

Unless your home oven is a problem for some reason, I would suggest you consider ditching using the Kamado.  You can read here in the forum about countless attempts to use one.  Everyone encounters the balancing issue because that it is how the grills are made (I have one, BTW).  They are not made for pizza with balanced heat generation.  Further, the amount of fuel you end up using is really, really high.  It is a great tool, just not a tool that is particularly compatible with good pizza.

If you use your home oven, with a decent pizza stone, you will probably find you can get can much better results than with the Kamado.  You are cooking in the 500s anyway and most ovens can achieve 500 or more.

Give it a try!
I may be a pizza noob, but this I can speak to. I made my base recipe for over a year in the oven with unbleached white flour. This was my first attempt at a ww version AND this recipe in my Big Steel Keg. It is a double wall steel insulated kamado. It has twice the thermal efficiency of a BGE. I can hold my hand on the exterior when it is registering 800F. It's very efficient and I don't use much lump at all

I have cooked perhaps 20 pizzas in it across maybe a dozen cooks and I have gotten pretty consistent even top/bottom results. The secret for me, at least in my keg is pushing the pie as high into the dome as possible. In the keg there is a CI main grate, then an upper grate having about a 6-7" stem that inserts on one side or the the other of the CI grate. I put the 16" screen on the top grate which would have only left perhaps .75"clearance  around the screen circumference due to the internal dome tapering.

My vents were not even half open for this 550F cook so there should be pretty little drying effect due to air movement. I did not add any smoke wood. I did use a BGE large stone, but you can't see it in my pics. It is on the CI main grate 6-7" below the upper grate where I placed my screen. I let my keg hold that temp for over an hour (and the stone heat up) before cooking my pies.

Title: Re: Whole Wheat for NY thin crust style?
Post by: Shawn W on July 15, 2015, 02:18:42 AM
I like whole wheat...


In the form of whiskey  :-D
I expected some sort of NY WW discrimination because my topic was brown. How appropriate it came from TEXAS Craig.  :-D

JK man, no worries, I really get it. That was awesome!  :-D
Title: Re: Whole Wheat for NY thin crust style?
Post by: David Esq. on July 15, 2015, 07:59:59 AM
Shawn, I can't really speak to how different mixing methods impact the dough. I've only mixed by hand for no important reason. 

The reason 100% wheat usually fails to please is because it is exceedingly difficult to develop gluten when the bits of bran are cutting the strands at every turn. Second, whole wheat has flavor and too much of a flavor can be too much of a good thing. Third, there is more to chew on with the bran included.

At 50/50 you will enjoy the outcome and improve the nutrient profile over a 100% refined white flour formula.

One way to minimize the texture problem associated with whole wheat is to mix the flour and water and let it sit out 12-24 hours before adding the salt and yeast/starter.  This may, however, bring out more flavor. Whether that is a good thing or not depends on your taste. To make it easier to mix, you could soak the whole wheat portion with an equal portion of the water, let it sit overnight, then add the salt on top of the whole wheat mass. Add the yeast to the remaining water, and mix with the white flour. Rest 15 minutes and then combine the two doughs by pinching and folding them together several times. Rest, do some stretch and folds and let it bulk ferment and rise as usual.
Title: Re: Whole Wheat for NY thin crust style?
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on July 15, 2015, 10:52:34 AM
Shawn,

What David is suggesting here is a type of poolish, though I'm thinking maybe it's not officially called that since there's no yeast. But who needs an official? If it works, it works.

But also, there's this. Most posts here (including mine, of course)  have been comparing WW to white flour pizza. But seeing your original post, I note that you want to make a pizza that your wife will enjoy, that's made of whole wheat..

There've been lots of posts here about "white whole wheat" and that's fine, but maybe she'd like a whole wheat pizza that tastes like a whole wheat pizza. So why not?

Perhaps part of the issue is that this post is on the NY thread. I just don't believe that you can consider a WW pizza to be an NY pie. It ain't happening. Fuhgeddaboudit. It's a specialty pie. And you can read about it in the proper category here in  Specialty Grain Pizzas.

I've made the Villa Roma pie with help from barryvabeach and as whole wheat pizzas go, I though it was very good. Still do. It's got a poolish, it's got a lot of hydration and it needs it. I don't mill my own flour, just use good old KAWW or sometimes even store-brand WW. To me it's tougher to work with, can't be successfully knuckle-stretched, and eats a lot heavier (though not a brick. It does have a very good flavor, and takes toppings nicely. It's brown, it's whole grain, it makes absolutely no apologies.  It's certainly not my go-to, or favorite pie, but it's a nice change. I consider it more a substitute for a sandwich on WW bread than I do a treat, but so what? It works just fine. And the dough can be frozen for at least a couple of weeks.

Anyway, thought it worth mentioning.
Title: Re: Whole Wheat for NY thin crust style?
Post by: David Esq. on July 15, 2015, 01:19:08 PM
For better or for worse, this sub-forum is described as follows:

"New York Style
Also known as Neapolitan-American style. Dough is stretched and/or tossed. Pizza has a bready rim that tapers down to a thin, foldable center."

That may be achieved with 50% whole wheat and 50% all purpose flour. 

There may actually be a need, for reasons best expressed by those who feel it, for a more restrictive description such as "made with 100% highly refined flour". 

Personally, I think the added restrictive description would be silly. 

I would say the same thing about Neapolitan style pizza. No, it isn't VPN but a very soft pizza baked in a very high temperature oven, can be accomplished with 50% whole wheat flour as well.  (I note that that sub forum reads: "Mirrors the style of pizza popularized in Naples using 00 flour, few toppings, and very-high temperature ovens."  And yet, many many pies are written about in that thread using AP flour).
Title: Re: Whole Wheat for NY thin crust style?
Post by: mitchjg on July 15, 2015, 01:41:42 PM
There have been innumerable threads and posts with people discussing what is "real" NY Style pizza.

Pizza with whole wheat may be good pizza. And, we have an entire area titled "Specialty-Grain Pizzas" subtitled "Whole-wheat and multi-grain pizzas."

To me, by analogy, it does not quack like a duck, it does not look like a duck, it does not taste like a duck, etc. - it ain't a duck - It may be pizza, it may be good pizza, it is not NY Style Pizzza.  No one made it in NY from the birth of the pizza in NY and for decades beyond.  Maybe someone in NY sells pizza with whole wheat now - I don't know.

What I do know is that trying to fold it in to the mainstream of NY Pizza in this forum will cause confusion for newbies and contention for many with little to zero good coming out of it.

The last rumble about "what is NY Pizza" was all about sourdough starter - waste of energy.  Do we really need to this to be a debate?

Title: Re: Whole Wheat for NY thin crust style?
Post by: Pete-zza on July 15, 2015, 01:55:05 PM
I sympathize with what Mitch and Bill are saying about pizza style. I also no not ever recall seeing or reading about a classic NY style with whole wheat flour, although someone out there somewhere who specializes in the NY style may be sneaking a bit of whole wheat flour into the dough to give the crust a bit more flavor. To avoid confusion, I am moving this thread to the Specialty-Grain Pizzas board. Thanks for the shove.

Peter
Title: Re: Whole Wheat for NY thin crust style?
Post by: woodmakesitgood on July 15, 2015, 02:40:03 PM
The bready rim was the part of the whole wheat pizza I made that I liked the least.
It was easily deformable, had no taste or chew, kind of like store bought wheat bread crust.

I think that if I made another whole wheat crust, I would go with Chicago thin.
That way, there would be no mealy rim, and all of the crust would have some sauce, cheese, toppings, which would help minimize any off flavor or texture.
Title: Re: Whole Wheat for NY thin crust style?
Post by: norma427 on July 15, 2015, 03:23:03 PM
I know it isn't a NY style pizza using another flour and whole wheat flour but I thought Peter Reinhart's Country Pizza dough was a good one for a pizza.  I didn't taste any bitterness in the crust.  Peter set forth a formulation at Reply 23 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=13037.msg127597#msg127597  This was the thread for the modified Reinhart Country Dough.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=13320.msg131749#msg131749

dmaxdmax also posted about using a batch of Reinharts's Classic Dough with replacing 25% bread flour with an equal amount of Supersprout at Reply 15 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=13509.msg134411#msg134411  This is dmaxdmax's thread.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=13524.msg134416#msg134416  I think his pizza looked good. 

I also thought Sal's whole wheat dough worked well at Reply 334 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=17632.msg178727#msg178727 

I think I have tried whole wheat flour along with another flour other places here on the forum but can't remember where.

Norma
Title: Re: Whole Wheat for NY thin crust style?
Post by: barryvabeach on July 15, 2015, 08:39:41 PM
Just wanted to chime in to say that there is a world of difference between the taste of "normal"  aka red whole wheat,  and white whole wheat.  To me, the flavor of red whole wheat is a little grassy, and can be described as bitter, but white whole wheat has a similar flavor to bread flour.  I have been eating mostly whole wheat so long that white bread has a sugary feel to it -  not quite cotton candy, but heading in that direction.
   Lately I have been making a sour sourdough version 100% white whole wheat, and many people have had and liked it - the sour has its own flavor component that my be overriding the wheat "flavor".   

I think I posted once before that when I first tried a Villa recipe for 100% whole wheat in my regular oven, I was very unimpressed.   I then saw that he was using a LBE and getting great char.  Once I  switched to a BS the taste of the Villa recipe improved dramatically.  I think that a slow cook in a regular oven, for some reason, makes the flavor profile of whole wheat pretty different. 

  If you want to try a NY style, I would suggest start with your favorite recipe, and make it with 25% www and the rest regular flour, and then add water till you get a similar feel to the 100% white flour,  then make it again, 50% 50%, again adding some extra water, then continue to move in that direction till you hit 100% white whole wheat.  I have done that a few times when trying to convert a recipe from white flour to white whole wheat, and have usually been successful.


Shawn,  I have the Bubba Keg, which is the prior version of the Big Steel Keg.  I could never get enough top heat for my pies, but you are obviously doing much better than me.   
Title: Re: Whole Wheat for NY thin crust style?
Post by: David Esq. on July 15, 2015, 09:48:53 PM
Id like to see your successful 100% www pizza and a crumb shot I can see what you are achieving.
Title: Re: Whole Wheat for NY thin crust style?
Post by: Shawn W on July 16, 2015, 03:17:14 AM
I truly appreciate EVERY response, thank you. I posted this thread initially in the NY forum where I thought it belonged. No worries here about moving it, sorry it was misplaced.

Second batch of balls are in the fridge ... see you in ten days

Title: Re: Whole Wheat for NY thin crust style?
Post by: David Esq. on July 16, 2015, 05:49:12 AM
Ten days is a long time. Adding whole wheat speeds up fermentation time a lot. If you have he ability I do so, and it appears like it proofed nicely by then, you may want to try it at days 3-5.
Title: Re: Whole Wheat for NY thin crust style?
Post by: norma427 on July 16, 2015, 06:04:33 AM

Second batch of balls are in the fridge ... see you in ten days

Ten days is a long time. Adding whole wheat speeds up fermentation time a lot. If you have he ability I do so, and it appears like it proofed nicely by then, you may want to try it at days 3-5.

Shawn,

Best of luck with you dough!

At one point in time I ground wheat from a field to make pizza and sprouted wheat.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14554.0  At Reply 122 there was a soaker and Ultragrain Whole Wheat flour was used to make a pizza.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14554.msg149044#msg149044 The pizza photos start at Reply 126 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14554.msg149244#msg149244

I agree with David that 10 days is a long time to ferment any dough unless you really know what you are doing. 

Norma
Title: Re: Whole Wheat for NY thin crust style?
Post by: Shawn W on July 17, 2015, 02:28:06 AM
Shawn,

Best of luck with you dough!

At one point in time I ground wheat from a field to make pizza and sprouted wheat.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14554.0  At Reply 122 there was a soaker and Ultragrain Whole Wheat flour was used to make a pizza.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14554.msg149044#msg149044 The pizza photos start at Reply 126 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14554.msg149244#msg149244

I agree with David that 10 days is a long time to ferment any dough unless you really know what you are doing. 

Norma
Thanks Norma and David!

I didn't mention it previously but the recipe I use talks about different cold ferment durations, the author's preference was 10 days and listed his reasons, sounded good to me so that's what I went with. It uses reduced yeast than his 3-5 day version and the current effort is presently in my spare fridge at 36F (he said to use 34F-36F). Though to David's point the recipes were for Caputo or KA flour IIRC and didn't account for a 'whole wheat speeding up fermentation' variable.

I did make this recipe with white flour regularly for over a year, so change will be slow. I changed to 50% WW this time, I think I have to give the 100% WW one more stab with the adjusted water amount and without the crazy overmix from adding supplemental water after the ball had formed. Then maybe I'll try the slightly higher yeast, shorter cold ferment version of a 50/50.

Anyway, once I'm done playing with this I plan to experiment with some of your suggested recipes and maybe a couple different pie types from the recipes section. So thanks again for the suggestions!
Title: Re: Whole Wheat for NY thin crust style?
Post by: Shawn W on July 17, 2015, 10:11:06 AM
Not exactly on topic but I found I still have pics of my 50/50 ww sourdough bagels I have been talking about in this post, love this pic:
Title: Re: Whole Wheat for NY thin crust style?
Post by: David Esq. on July 17, 2015, 10:54:40 AM
Wow. A perfect home made bagel. Not easily achieved.
Title: Re: Whole Wheat for NY thin crust style?
Post by: David Esq. on July 18, 2015, 02:34:36 PM
50% white whole wheat.
Title: Re: Whole Wheat for NY thin crust style?
Post by: barryvabeach on July 19, 2015, 08:31:02 PM
David, nice pie.  This is 100 % white whole wheat ( home milled ) sourdough . 
Title: Re: Whole Wheat for NY thin crust style?
Post by: Shawn W on July 21, 2015, 01:58:57 AM
nice looking pies guys!

Barry, I tried the sourdough I used to make the bagels with white flour NY pizza dough a couple times. Not very knowledgeable on sourdough but it didn't seem 'active' or 'aggressive' enough. Very little lift from it, no big bubbles in the dough either. Perhaps I didn't use enough starter, not sure. I think my starter worked for the 50/50 bagels due to the boil step before baking, sort of woke it up and got it moving. I haven't used it for years but I'm gonna wake it up again. I have dried some and saved it.
Title: Re: Whole Wheat for NY thin crust style?
Post by: barryvabeach on July 21, 2015, 07:12:36 AM
Shawn,  I tried and failed with sourdough a number of times.   I don't have it mastered yet, but getting better results now that I have played with it more.  Keep playing with it, it is worth it. 
Title: Re: Whole Wheat for NY thin crust style?
Post by: David Esq. on July 21, 2015, 07:35:19 AM
If you have a low frustration tolerance start with yeast until you get a dough that bakes up great. Then go to sourdough.  If you just want to get the sourdough right, and won't quit because of a few setbacks then keep at it for sure.
Title: Re: Whole Wheat for NY thin crust style?
Post by: Shawn W on July 24, 2015, 03:13:50 AM
If you have a low frustration tolerance start with yeast until you get a dough that bakes up great. Then go to sourdough.  If you just want to get the sourdough right, and won't quit because of a few setbacks then keep at it for sure.
I'm the 'get the sourdough right' guy. Sourdough is the bomb. I believe it to be healthier and I love the flavor nuance in the end product.

Question ... packaged yeast has been around 100 or less years - ish. Is authentic original NY style pizza then sourdough based or did it come to exist after packaged yeast?
Title: Whole Wheat for NY thin crust style?
Post by: David Esq. on July 24, 2015, 06:32:39 AM
My opinion is worthless here because I believe that there is no such thing as "authentic original New York style pizza" and that while there may be a small group of people who agree on what the term means, it is by no means a group that is large enough or influential enough to set a definition except perhaps among themselves, and even then there isn't agreement.
For the most part that small group of people seem to rely on what they remember eating as a kid.  The original pizzerias such as Totonnos, Patsy's and John's can be eaten at today but it is anybody's guess if they make up their formulas and pies have been consistent from the early 1900s to today. Of course people are always staying that the pizza was better earlier in time. This may be true. It may be the nostalgia effect.
But, pizza supposedly came to NY in 1905 so they were not using instant yeast as many do today. So whether it is authentic or not, would no doubt depend on what you are talking about as well as when.

And, whether it was sourdough or yeast from the local brewer, I do not know. Probably the latter.
Title: Re: Whole Wheat for NY thin crust style?
Post by: Pete-zza on July 24, 2015, 07:46:13 AM
David,

In case you are interested, there is a pretty good discussion on the evolution of the NY style pizza at this thread:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14920.msg148001#msg148001

Peter
Title: Re: Whole Wheat for NY thin crust style?
Post by: David Esq. on July 24, 2015, 08:15:26 AM
It is a very detailed discussion, Pete.  I think, in the end, I will come the same conclusion after reading through it.  What original authentic NY style means depends on what and when you are talking about. Seems as though the discussion usually reverts to how pizza by the slice has evolved. But, with so many pizzerias there is not going to be a standard one can point to as "the" standard slice.  And, of course, evolution by definition, means change, taking me back to it depends when you are talking about.
Title: Re: Whole Wheat for NY thin crust style?
Post by: Shawn W on July 26, 2015, 12:34:57 AM
Thanks guys. In order to keep this thread from meandering I'll  do some reading around sourdough then start another thread if I have any question about NY dough using sourdough.
Title: Re: Whole Wheat for NY thin crust style?
Post by: Shawn W on July 26, 2015, 12:43:51 AM
Today I made my first 50/50 WW and unbleached white flour 16" pies. 10 day cold ferment. I liked the dough better. It was breadier, by comparison the 100% ww was more like cracker like. I enjoy the WW flavor. It was pouring rain today so I used the oven instead of the keg.

Pepperoni, mushroom, jalapeno, the other Alfredo Sauce, Spinach, slivered garlic, bbq chicken, mushrooms and sun dried tomato.

Happy with 50/50 ... now I'll try reducing the cold ferment time as suggested.
Title: Whole Wheat for NY thin crust style?
Post by: David Esq. on July 26, 2015, 05:08:31 AM
Looks beautiful. I can't  bring myself to use all white flour anymore. Either it's 50% or 33% depending on whether I am making the Roberta dough with yeast or  a Neapolitan with sourdough. It's a function of my pizza app. It breaks the flour into two pieces 2/3 and 1/3. In order to get 50/50 I have to add the two pieces and divide. If I just look at the screen it is idiot proof to get the 33% ratio. ;)
Title: Re: Whole Wheat for NY thin crust style?
Post by: Shawn W on September 26, 2015, 02:38:28 AM
Been a few weeks but I'm back to pizza on my keg. I used my NY style dough 50/50 WW, tried a 5 day cold ferment instead of 10 day this time and made two 16" pizzas.

One of the pies I made was a Smoked Chicken Taco Pizza, really good.

Picante sauce and fresh cilantro topped with cheese, 1 head slivered garlic, sauteed bell pepper, smoked chicken breast.Topped with Lettuce, Tomato, Sour Cream, Green Onion, Olive, Crushed Habanero and Gaucamole Doritos, Taco sauce:
Title: Re: Whole Wheat for NY thin crust style?
Post by: barryvabeach on September 27, 2015, 08:29:45 AM
Shawn,  you got some nice browning on the crust, very impressed.