Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza

[norma427]

If anyone wants to see what Tom Lehmann replied to me on the current questions I was asking you can see what he had to say on this link.

http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8419&start=15#p57791

Norma

[norma427]

The poolish that was made Saturday was incorporated into the dough.  The poolish seemed to be doing well.  The dough was a little higher hydration than I am using now, but was easy to form into balls. 

Since I can't stand to see anything go to waste, I also used the poolish that was made Friday.  Since there was too much water added to that poolish, I had to add extra flour after first trying to mix the dough.  I then added 0.83 lbs. of extra flour and continued to mix.  The dough turned out okay.  It was a little more sticky than the first final dough, but was still easy to ball.  The poolish seemed to bubble more since it was fermenting in the deli case since Friday.

The temperature at market was still cool today at 48 degrees F.  The final dough temperature of the first dough was 78 degrees F.  The second final dough with the poolish was 79 degrees F. 

The pictures are first the poolish that was made Saturday and then incorporated into the final dough, today..  The second set of pictures are the poolish that was made Friday and then incorporated into the final dough, today.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

With respect to the very liquid poolish (modified poolish), did you add that modified poolish to the rest of the ingredients mentioned in the Final Mix at Reply 149 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg88687.html#msg88687 plus 0.83 pounds (376.49 grams) of extra KABF?

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

With respect to the very liquid poolish (modified poolish), did you add that modified poolish to the rest of the ingredients mentioned in the Final Mix at Reply 149 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg88687.html#msg88687 plus 0.83 pounds (376.49 grams) of extra KABF?

Peter

Peter,

Yes, I did mix 0.83 pounds of extra KASL to the final dough, today.  I just wanted to see what would happen with mixing the liquid poolish, that I had added to much water to on Friday. The dough very wet, so then I mixed the extra flour in.  I was surprised today to see the poolish that I had added extra water to, did have more bubbles.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

If you made the modified poolish with 757.75 grams of flour and 378.31 grams of KASL, then the hydration was 200.3%, or about double a classic poolish (and about 50% higher than for the ciabatta dough recipe). That high a hydration promotes increased enzyme activity and, as a result, increased natural sugar for the yeast to use as food. That is most likely why you saw more bubbles in the modified poolish. Hopefully, the yeast did not run out of food during the prefermentation process. Maybe that wouldn't matter since I used more yeast than usual in the Final Mix.

With 0.83 pounds of extra KASL, the total dough batch weight should have increased and you should have ended up with five dough balls, as with the second dough batch, but with a smaller dough ball left over (not quite enough to make another 16" pizza). Is that what you experienced?

The numbers and percents will be different for the dough using the modified poolish. If it turns out that you like the pizzas made with the modified poolish better than the pizzas made with the normal poolish, I can recalculate everything. It will be interesting to see how things shake out, in terms of taste, crust flavors, color and texture. So, I look forward to your report comparing the two doughs.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

I think the poolish on Friday was made with 757.75g water and 0.83 lbs of KASL.  I am not sure, but the next day I was thinking, why was the poolish so thin. The poolish was like a thin pancake batter.  I then decided to weigh the ingredients again because I was thinking it should have turned out like a thick pancake batter.  That is why there were two poolishes.  I wish I could be sure what I did on Friday, but don't know for sure. 
For the extra dough left at the end.  There is always extra dough when I do tests on 5 dough balls.  When I weigh my dough balls, I always weigh them at 1.024 lbs.  I know that makes a thin pizza, but find that works for me, when making a 16" pizza.  I just never adjusted the thickness factor and don't really know what my thickness factor is for a 16" pizza.  It was just something I found over a period of time that worked for me.  My middle of the crust is thin. 
The modified poolish did look like it was okay, today.  I will wait until tomorrow and see what happens.  The final dough mixed with the extra 0.83 lb. of KASL seemed okay, but a little more sticky.
It will be interesting to see what happens with both doughs, tomorrow.
I still have a dough ball left over from the 8 day fermentation in your other thread.  I had taken it to market last week and was going to try it, but didn't have time.  It was froze, thawed, and now, refrozen.  See if I have time to try it tomorrow.  It still looked good last week.


Norma

[norma427]

Peter,

I just thought I did take a picture when making the poolish on Friday.  You can see if at reply #152.  You will see the measuring cup on my small scale.  Can you tell by looking at that picture, how much water I might have added?

Norma

[Pete-zza]

There is always extra dough when I do tests on 5 dough balls.  When I weigh my dough balls, I always weigh them at 1.024 lbs.  I know that makes a thin pizza, but find that works for me, when making a 16" pizza.  I just never adjusted the thickness factor and don't really know what my thickness factor is for a 16" pizza.  It was just something I found over a period of time that worked for me.

Norma,

If you are using 1.024 pounds (16.384 ounces) of dough to make a 16" pizza, the thickness factor is 16.384/(3.14159 x 8 x 8) = 0.08149. You can use that value, together with a bowl residue compensation, if you do not want to end up with much leftover dough.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

If you are using 1.024 pounds (16.384 ounces) of dough to make a 16" pizza, the thickness factor is 16.384/(3.14159 x 8 x = 0.08149. You can use that value, together with a bowl residue compensation, if you do not want to end up with much leftover dough.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for figuring the thickness factor out for me.  I will use that in the future, along with a bowl residue compensation.  I also still have the picture on my camera and can compare it with my measuring cup tomorrow to see what the measurements might be of the water.  Maybe then you can tell how much water I used in the poolish I made Friday. 

Thanks,

Norma

[Pete-zza]

I just thought I did take a picture when making the poolish on Friday.  You can see if at reply #152.  You will see the measuring cup on my small scale.  Can you tell by looking at that picture, how much water I might have added?

Norma,

I magnified the photo in Reply 152 and although I can only view the measuring cup at an angle from above I estimate that you used about 3 1/4 cups of water. That would come to 768.9 grams. That is close enough to 757.75 grams for us to safely conclude that you did, in fact, use 757.75 grams of water to make the modified poolish. 757.75 grams of water is 3.20 cups.

Peter

[norma427]

That is close enough to 757.75 grams for us to safely conclude that you did, in fact, use 757.75 grams of water to make the modified poolish. 757.75 grams of water is 3.20 cups.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for going though the process of figuring this all out.    At least now, if this modified poolish does produce a better crust flavor, it will be a beginning point to go forward.  I have the two different poolishes marked, so I will know tomorrow, which one I will be trying.
Sorry, to be causing all this confusion. 

Thanks,

Norma

[norma427]

Both of the final doughs with the poolish and modified poolish turned out well, today.  I believe this is a great formula for anyone to try.  It is easy to make the poolish and the final pizzas turned out better than I expected. 
Special thanks to Peter for figuring all the math calculations out and for thinking this Ciabatta -Poolish Version might work for a preferment for the Lehmann dough.  Second special thanks is to old criter that posted the poolish for a Ciabatta Poolish using a Reinhart recipe. At reply #7 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10123.msg88451/topicseen.html#msg88451

Both doughs handled well and both finished pizzas looked artisan in appearance.  Both crusts were better than my regular Lehmann dough. 

I will post some pictures tonight and if anyone is interested, will post more pictures tomorrow.  I did have my daughter take a short video of opening both of the doughs. Although I didn't take the time I should have in opening both of the doughs, you will be able to see what they looked like.  I will upload them tomorrow on you tube and post them tomorrow, also. 
The poolish I used too much water in and then the final dough was more extensible.  I think it could have stretched a lot more than I needed. 

The first pictures are of the poolish that was mixed right.  These pictures start at 1527 jpg. and end at 1532 jpg.  The second set of pictures were of the poolish I mixed too much water in.  These pictures start at 1526 jpg. and end at 1561 jpg.  The last picture is of 2 pizzas made with the regular Lehmann dough, today.

Norma

[norma427]

rest of pictures

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

That's great news. The pizzas with the poolish look great. Did your usual tasters sample the new pizzas and, if so, what were their reactions?

Do you think that you will incorporate the poolish as a standard part of your Lehmann dough formulation?

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

I really liked how both doughs handled and how the crusts on both tasted, also.  Yes, my taste testers did taste the pies and they really liked them, also.  Thanks for saying the new pizzas look great.  I really like the artisan look. 

I do think I will incorporate this into the Lehmann recipe.  Now, to make the choice of which one is best.   

Could you tell me how to scale this poolish and final dough up to make my dough each week?

I think if anyone tries this new version of the preferment with the Lehmann dough they will be pleased with the results.

Thanks for taking the time to do the major reconstructive surgery on this poolish and final dough.    How did you ever figure that out?

Thanks,

Norma

[Essen1]

Norma,

Most excellent looking pies!! Congrats to your success.

Looks like you outdid yourself there. 

[norma427]

Mike,

Thanks for the compliment.  I only did the mixing and making the pizzas.  The preferment was Peter's and old criter ideas together.

Thanks,

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

How did I ever figure this thing out? Sometimes you just get lucky with these sorts of things. You try to apply the scientific principles correctly, do the number crunching, try to get the timing right, cross your fingers and hope that your instincts serve you well.

With respect to the dough formulation for larger scale application, there is still the matter of being able to make the poolish at market when it is cool. You might want to put together an inexpensive proofing box with a thermometer to monitor the temperature of prefermentation (the three hour part) and do another batch of dough to see if you can replicate your last results. Have you been making 15 pounds of dough for your regular Lehmann pizzas? If you'd like, we can do the calculations for the larger dough batch if you would like to use the larger dough batch as your next iteration using the poolish. I think I would stick with the classic poolish for now. You can always try the modified poolish in a later experiment where the contrast may be more pronounced and allow you to better decide which preferment you like better. I assume you may want to use the modified thickness factor no matter which way we go.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

I must say you are very good are figuring out ways to sort all of this out.

I do have the things needed to make the proofing box.  I will put that together in the next few days, so I can also try that in seeing if that will produce better results because of the low temperature at market. 

As for the size of my batches.  Sometimes I use 15 lbs. and sometimes I use 10 lbs. additionally to get what I think I need for the week..  All depends on how much dough I think I will need for the Tuesday.  Each week is different.  Another thing is if I might have dough left over that are frozen to use in the coming week. 

Yes, I agree in using the classic poolish to start with. 

As for the thickness factor, it doesn't really matter.  The leftover dough I just use for panini's.  They take 5 oz. of dough.  I used the leftover dough from yesterday and scaled the dough for the panini's.  I did take pictures of them, also and they tasted better with the poolish.  I will post them later.

Thanks for your help,

Norma

[norma427]

These video file uploads on You Tube are of me opening the dough for the classic poolish and the modified poolish.  Although I didn't take the care I usually do in opening the dough, if anyone is interested you can how the two poolishes were in the final dough when opening. I just tried to open the dough fast, so the videos wouldn't take to long to upload.  The first video, I even dropped the dough. 

In conclusion, these dough with the poolish really handled well.

The first video is the classic poolish incorporated into the final dough.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6sz1Br1Wxc


The second video is the modified poolish incorporated into the final dough. It can be seen that this modified poolish was much more extensible than the classic poolish. 


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvOWNq0lZLg

Norma