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Author Topic: NEED HELP with Sicilian pie's undercrust  (Read 760 times)

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Offline 9slicePie

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NEED HELP with Sicilian pie's undercrust
« on: June 16, 2021, 11:04:11 AM »
Gonna try explaining this as clearly and accurately as possible.

First off, this is the pan I'm using: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01LNOLFQY/?tag=pmak-20

I cant seem to consistently get a specific target bottom crust (CRISPY & FIRM glistening golden brown crunchy, olive oil-"fried" undercrust).

The size of my pan is 17.25 x 11.5 x 1 inch, results in 8 big square slices.   I coat the pan with 0.5 cup of olive oil (if I use less than that, it's difficult to get my target bottom crust).  I let the dough proof on it for about 15-20 mins, dress the pizza, then bake for about 17 mins at 525 F (highest setting on my oven). 
NO PAR-BAKING FOR ME.  I refuse to parbake  ;D

Problem is: usually, only the CORNER slices get that nice, firm, glistening golden brown crunchy undercrust.  The remaining slices are "soft and floppy".  Sometimes, ALL of the slices are soft, and other times, all of the slices have that specific targeted CRISPY & FIRM bottom crust that I aim for.  No variables significantly change (if ANY) from bake to bake.  It's just so unpredictable!


Why does this happen?  I'm guessing that since the pan probably heats from the outside (corner slices) inward, the "heat gradient" doesn't reach the INNER slices (long enough?) to give them that CRISPY & FIRM glistening golden brown crunchy, olive oil-"fried" undercrust.  See attached diagram (notice the arrows getting smaller and smaller). That's what I mean.  Picture those arrows extending from all 4 corners,,, I just illustrated it from 1 corner to save time.

Dough is:
390g bread flour
226g water
5.7g salt
4.5g sugar
2g ADY
6 g olive oil (though I can leave this out).


If I try baking for a longer time period, it results in a BURNT undercrust.  Maybe I should use more than 0.5 cup of olive oil to coat the pan? (but then it may be TOO oily?).  Maybe dont use sugar and oil in the DOUGH formula since they're browning agents?  IIIIII dunno mannnn.


Help.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2021, 11:38:09 AM by 9slicePie »

Offline HansB

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Re: NEED HELP with Sicilian pie's undercrust
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2021, 11:10:44 AM »
I personally would start with the pan. Using a cookie baking sheet is not ideal. It's probably too thin/light.

I think you'd get a better bake with a good pan https://lloydpans.com/pizza-tools/regional-style-pizza-pans/grandma-style-pizza-pans.html
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Offline Gene in Acadiana

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Re: NEED HELP with Sicilian pie's undercrust
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2021, 12:05:34 PM »
I also think the pan is probably the main problem. A thicker steel pan designed for pizza should help. A black or dark color pan will also help with browning. Baking longer at a slightly lower temperature might also help to dry out the crust a little more and reduce sogginess. Also try putting the pan on a pizza stone that's been heated for an hour.

Also make sure you immediately take it out of the pan and rest it on a wire rack when done.
 

Offline scott r

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Re: NEED HELP with Sicilian pie's undercrust
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2021, 12:22:57 PM »
I have a few different types of pans including some of the original blue steel ones used in Detroit.  I also am usually a no par bake guy, and I cook with my home oven up as high as it will go.  For me the Lloyd's pan is the best because it browns slightly less than the blue steel pans.   That allows me to get a really great crisp bottom thats very even and also to cook the pizza until its firm enough.   The original blue steel pans force me to cook at a lower temp or pull the pizza from the oven earlier than I would like. 

So... lots of words to say listen to Hans :)

Offline scott r

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Re: NEED HELP with Sicilian pie's undercrust
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2021, 12:26:18 PM »
Also, if sometimes your pan works and sometimes it doesn't, I think you are seeing differences in how proofed your dough is.  How fermented the dough is can have a profound impact on browning and crispiness.   You may want to keep an eye on finished dough temps and proofing times to hone in on the sweet spot.   I personally see no need for sugar in this type of pizza, but my oven does get hotter than yours.

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Offline 9slicePie

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Re: NEED HELP with Sicilian pie's undercrust
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2021, 12:34:30 PM »
Thanks for the input, guys.  What a forum!! 

Offline 9slicePie

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Re: NEED HELP with Sicilian pie's undercrust
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2021, 02:38:14 PM »
Also, if sometimes your pan works and sometimes it doesn't, I think you are seeing differences in how proofed your dough is.  How fermented the dough is can have a profound impact on browning and crispiness.   You may want to keep an eye on finished dough temps and proofing times to hone in on the sweet spot.   I personally see no need for sugar in this type of pizza, but my oven does get hotter than yours.
Would you have any suggestions as to finished dough temps* and proofing times for me to consistently achieve the undercrust outlined in the OP?

Also, is the temperature of the dough while proofing on the PAN important too?  I usually keep the dough on the kitchen counter a few hours before using it.



*I'm assuming you mean the temperature of the dough after it's finished mixing/kneading?
« Last Edit: June 16, 2021, 05:04:14 PM by 9slicePie »

Offline 9slicePie

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Re: NEED HELP with Sicilian pie's undercrust
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2021, 03:46:07 PM »
And do you guys think that lowering the hydration would help in achieving the targeted undercrust outlined in the OP?

Awaiting Llyod pans, so in the meantime, using the same baking sheet.

I recently tried a dough with NO sugar and NO oil in it.... it resulted in an almost near-burnt bottom crust.  And the entire pizza was essentially FLOPPY! and pillowy-soft!
« Last Edit: June 30, 2021, 10:10:13 AM by 9slicePie »

Offline nickyr

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Re: NEED HELP with Sicilian pie's undercrust
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2021, 09:38:37 PM »
I agree with the suggestion to put the pan on a stone.

Also, why do you refuse to parbake? It really can get you a nice crispy crust

Offline 9slicePie

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Re: NEED HELP with Sicilian pie's undercrust
« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2021, 10:09:14 AM »
Also, why do you refuse to parbake? It really can get you a nice crispy crust

1 less (time-consuming) step

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Offline Peter B

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Re: NEED HELP with Sicilian pie's undercrust
« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2021, 12:01:25 PM »
I recently tried a dough with NO sugar and NO oil in it.... it resulted in an almost near-burnt bottom crust.  And the entire pizza was essentially FLOPPY! and pillowy-soft!

It was almost burned AND is was floppy?  Didn't think that was possible.

+1 on the pan being a primary suspect BTW.

As for not wanting to par-bake, take a look at this thread:
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=69808.msg671741#msg671741

And the pan pizza recipe here:
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=69808.msg671940#msg671940

This is a no par-bake recipe that looks like it does very nicely if you look at the thread.  I have not tried the pan recipe yet (I plan to, but I also saw the results posted here, which looks yummy too - https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26286.msg675763#msg675763), but I have done the NY style recipe a few times and it was really, really good.  I figure they should know as well as anyone what bakers are trying to achieve, and if they can give you a spot-on recipe, it will generate more sales.

Hope that helps-
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I said to my little one, "come here so I can change you".
He said "change only comes from within".  :-/

Offline 9slicePie

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Re: NEED HELP with Sicilian pie's undercrust
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2021, 12:19:09 PM »
Thank you for your input.


It was almost burned AND is was floppy?  Didn't think that was possible.

It is  :-D

That's why I'm going nuts trying to figure it out.

Offline nickyr

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Re: NEED HELP with Sicilian pie's undercrust
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2021, 08:21:43 PM »
1 less (time-consuming) step
Bummer. Might be worth trying https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=69420.0 once to see what you think…maybe you’ll be convinced it’s worth it :-)

Offline 9slicePie

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Re: NEED HELP with Sicilian pie's undercrust
« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2021, 01:22:43 PM »
btw, I just noticed that the pizza in this link https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=69808.msg671968#msg671968 is also using a Wilton pan like me.  Then why am I having issues?  ???

Offline nickyr

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Re: NEED HELP with Sicilian pie's undercrust
« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2021, 01:39:40 PM »
btw, I just noticed that the pizza in this link https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=69808.msg671968#msg671968 is also using a Wilton pan like me.  Then why am I having issues?  ???
Are you sure they’re not experiencing the same thing you are? Maybe they don’t mind but you do.

Also it could be a Wilton pan of a different thickness.

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Offline Papa T

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Re: NEED HELP with Sicilian pie's undercrust
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2021, 10:43:29 PM »
I second this motion.

I personally would start with the pan. Using a cookie baking sheet is not ideal. It's probably too thin/light.

I think you'd get a better bake with a good pan https://lloydpans.com/pizza-tools/regional-style-pizza-pans/grandma-style-pizza-pans.html
Everything sounds better in latin.
Omnis pizza 'est bonum.
Every pizza is good.

Making good pizza is not that hard, unless we choose to make it that way.

The best pizza you'll ever make for someone is making the one they ask for instead of making it the way we think it should be made.

Offline SonVolt

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Re: NEED HELP with Sicilian pie's undercrust
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2021, 11:23:41 PM »
1) Your pan sucks.

2) Put your pan (a new pan) directly on top of a preheated baking steel (preferably) or stone.

Offline Papa T

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Re: NEED HELP with Sicilian pie's undercrust
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2021, 11:22:06 PM »
The thicker the gauge of your pan, the more consistent your bakes will be regardless of everything else. Cookie sheet pans are notoriously thin.

Also, unrelated to pizzas, cookie sheets make better cookies when they don't have sides like the one shown on Amazon. The cookies closer to the rim cook different from the ones away from it. If one is going to make cookies, get a flat cookie sheet without a rim.

Gonna try explaining this as clearly and accurately as possible.

First off, this is the pan I'm using: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01LNOLFQY/?tag=pmak-20

I cant seem to consistently get a specific target bottom crust (CRISPY & FIRM glistening golden brown crunchy, olive oil-"fried" undercrust).
Everything sounds better in latin.
Omnis pizza 'est bonum.
Every pizza is good.

Making good pizza is not that hard, unless we choose to make it that way.

The best pizza you'll ever make for someone is making the one they ask for instead of making it the way we think it should be made.

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


 

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