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Author Topic: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results  (Read 241963 times)

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Offline MadHen

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #540 on: February 11, 2021, 08:52:26 PM »
Latest revision. This seems to be more in line with cold fermentation observations.

What a great thread. There is a lot of hard work and passion behind this. Thank you for the contribution.
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #541 on: February 12, 2021, 06:46:49 AM »
Thanks! Hope you find it helpful.
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Offline saab693

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #542 on: April 26, 2021, 08:38:37 AM »
Hi guys

New on the forum so apologies for what follows, bound to be stupid!

This table looks such a great resource but my maths isn't the best and I'm struggling a bit trying to work it out in my head. For example, I like the Serious Eats pizza recipes and Kenji's New York style calls for about 6g of instant yeast (mixed with 300g flour, 200g water/milk, 7.5g salt) and a 2 hour initial proove.

I'm struggling to work out how that fits in to the table? In my mind, 6g yeast when using 300g flour is 2% yeast which obviously is way off this chart, but it does take me about 2.5 hours for the proove, which is longer than the proving time predicted for 0.256% yeast in this table.

Am I missing something?

Cheers
Seb


Offline saab693

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #543 on: April 26, 2021, 09:25:05 AM »
Here's my attempt to help get the stat ball rolling.

Craig, though I have not used IDY or CY, based on my relatively limited experience with ADY, the fermentation times shown in the model (at least at the yeast quantities and temperatures I've used) look to be on the low side.   

For instance, I've used Jim Lahey's no-knead approach in the past with good results:  70% hydration, 3.2% salt, 0.2% ADY, 18 hour ferment at about 72 F.   My ready-to-bake times are consistent with those numbers.  Flour use has been a number of combinations of AP and high-gluten with no visible difference in state of readiness (I've done them side by side). 

More recently, using Caputo flour, 64% hydration, 2.9% salt, and 0.13% ADY, I've reached ready-to-bake after about 24 hours at 65 F (though I often need to bring it up into the mid-70s for the last couple of hours).

Based on the above examples, my fermentation times with ADY are quite a bit longer than those predicted by the model.  Though I appreciate this is my first substantive post (and there may be concerns regarding my credibility), I have lurked for a while and my ready-to-bake determinations are similar to Craig's based on his postings of the appearance of the dough balls through the bottom of the dough containers.   I'll try to post some pictures of the results of the above-mentioned bakes within the next few days.

For what it's worth regarding the debate on the particulars, the tap water I use here in the Bay Area (from Hetch Hetchy in Yosemite) is in my estimation, on the lower end of the spectrum for chlorine and other additives. 

Stefan

Sorry for the double post but this makes me think I def have got something wrong!

I've made Jim Lahey's breads before and in my experience the prove was around 18 hours. Jim uses 1g of instant yeast with 500g of flour, so 0.2% by my reckoning.

Looking at the spreadsheet, 0.2% should take around 2 hours at room temperature but it definitely takes a lot longer. I must have misunderstood the formula.

Hopefully someone can set me on the right path!

Cheers
Seb

Offline Creagle

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #544 on: April 27, 2021, 06:00:28 PM »
Without meaning to rehash what so many others have said previously, this graph is a fantastic tool.

Personally I find the first iteration most accurate for our operations as a commercial wood fired neapolitan pizzeria. We use 0.15% CY and I find 15oC is the ideal temperature to let the dough prove at for 24 hours to then be great the next day. We then hold it in the fridge for up to 4 days and it performs well.

My question is, sometimes our dough proves in a colder environment, for this example that temperature is 12oC. Those 3oC make a world of difference and it needs more than 24 hours if proved only at 12oC - according to the graph it needs 38 hours instead of 26 - which is approximately 33% longer. I would therefore expect that if we held it in the fridge at 4oC for an additional 48 hours after the 24 hours at 12oC it would look very similar to a dough that had 24 hours at 15oC. However it always looks less puffy and less ready. At 4oC in the fridge the graph predicts 120 hours to be ready, therefore 48 hours is approximately 33% of that time hence why I expect it to be ready, as in total it has become approximately 66% ready after 24 hours at 12oC and then 48 hours at 4oC should be the final 33% more to reach 100% completion. 

Am I missing something here? Can you not get to the same final place by changing temperatures?

Personally I think the best doughs which are soft but puffy are created by <24 hour RT fermentation. After much experimentation, I've always found in my operation that (even several day long) fridge fermentations produce dense tight dough balls that never grow as much as much briefer RT fermentation. Maybe my fridges are too cold, but I find at 4oC (that's the probed dough temperature not the temperature the fridge is set to) fermentation is effectively blocked and dough will look not more ready 24 hours later.




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Online Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #545 on: April 28, 2021, 02:32:51 AM »
Creagle..if you search in that thread for multiple temperatures I know Craig has explained in detail how to do what you are asking. Peter might know right where that link is



Offline Creagle

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #546 on: April 28, 2021, 04:14:59 AM »
Creagle..if you search in that thread for multiple temperatures I know Craig has explained in detail how to do what you are asking. Peter might know right where that link is

Thanks Jersey Boy.I should have mentioned I have previously read that post and followed it. And I reach two or multiple combination that should mean 100% ready. However in my opinion the dough is not ready and certainly does not appear or perform the same. It is smaller, denser and much flatter and often has black speckling. Whereas quicker RT fermentation at entirely 15oC are puffy and very light.

What I'm asking is, would you expect that a dough which has reached 100% competition quickly at a constant rate (15oC in this example after 24 hours) to appear and behave the same as a dough that has reached 100% but by proving for 20 hours at 12oC and then several days in the fridge. From reading this forum and others it appears the answer should be yes however I don't seem to be getting similar results. Furthermore, people often advocate longer cold ferments as superior however in my opinion the dough is better after a short RT fermentation. I wonder if I'm missing something, i.e. is a long cold fridge ferment best but am I causing an issue by doing a first fermentation period at a warmer temperature?
« Last Edit: April 28, 2021, 09:21:31 AM by Creagle »

Online Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #547 on: April 28, 2021, 09:34:10 AM »
I don't have scientific answers for you but when I do long cold ferments, yes the dough appears different but when my fermentation is nailed, the finished product is similar but has more flavor  .Hopefully others will chime in with more helpful answers for you.


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #548 on: April 28, 2021, 09:43:24 AM »
What I'm asking is, would you expect that a dough which has reached 100% competition quickly at a constant rate (15oC in this example after 24 hours) to appear and behave the same as a dough that has reached 100% but by proving for 20 hours at 12oC and then several days in the fridge. From reading this forum and others it appears the answer should be yes however I don't seem to be getting similar results. Furthermore, people often advocate longer cold ferments as superior however in my opinion the dough is better after a short RT fermentation. I wonder if I'm missing something, i.e. is a long cold fridge ferment best but am I causing an issue by doing a first fermentation period at a warmer temperature?

The biochemical processes are different at different temps, so I don't think it's surprising at all to have differences in the dough. As for which is better, that's personal preference. I prefer shorter RT ferments as well. Everything happens faster with higher temperatures - not just the production of CO2 in the dough. As a rule of thumb, enzyme activity doubles with every 10C increase in temperature. Enzyme activity is governing everything happening in the dough. Painting with a very broad brush, it's ~20C difference between RT and CF, so in terms of development, a 4-day CF is comparable to a 1-day RT, or a 12-hour RT is similar to a 2-day CF.  This is not to say they are the same - they aren't - the byproducts of fermentation create aroma nd flavor are temperature-dependent to varying extents. However, it terms of complexity, there are similarities.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Online Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #549 on: April 28, 2021, 12:05:28 PM »
Thanks Craig...glad you saw this and rescued me :-[

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Offline amolapizza

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #550 on: April 28, 2021, 05:18:45 PM »
FWIW: I've often read that the alcoholic yeast fermentation stops at 4C.  Maybe you'd want to leave the dough longer at RT (when the temperature is low / or use some more yeast) before you put it to sleep in the fridge.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2021, 05:21:46 PM by amolapizza »
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Offline vdll

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Hello,

I have a question regarding rationale behind using long RT fermentation (i.e. 24h) before CF.
I made several decent pies (using "5 Stagioni Napoletana" with 65% hydration and 2% salt and .003% IDY) by letting the dough ferment at RT for 2h, but never managed to get a proper cornicione. Luckily I bumped into a Bread Code YT channel and tried the dough growth measuring tip this awesome guy provided. He suggests cutting off a piece of mixed dough and placing it in a small jar, marking the dough level with a rubber band. This way it's easy to see how much your dough grew and after achieving 1.5 fold increase (took me 6h) dough was ready to be refrigerated. After 48h in 4C and 3 hours of RT the dough was still cool, but stretched evenly and the cornicione bloomed beautifully (just when I lost faith in my home oven).

Excuse my rambling, I guess the real question is: will 24h RT+48hCF dough be evidently superior to 6hRT+66hCF one?

Offline TXCraig1

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Excuse my rambling, I guess the real question is: will 24h RT+48hCF dough be evidently superior to 6hRT+66hCF one?

Maybe, maybe not. There are lots of other variables.

Other thoughts on the subject: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=41039.0
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline vdll

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Your dedication and attention to details are downright staggering. I learned a lot from you and other forum members, thank you.
For me, not being able to precisely control RT, combining RT and CF should suffice for now. Hopefully my pet SD will bring me to another level of baking nevertheless.
Does keeping dough in RT until it expands to x1.5 of starting volume, then refrigerating for 48-72h and tempering for 3h before baking sounds reasonable to you?

Offline TXCraig1

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I don't know. I haven't tried it. Practice and experimenting is the best way to make great pizza.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline Numerator

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@TXCraig1. Can you post a version that has hours to two digits, yeast to three and temp from 35 to 100, please? The more range of yeast percentages, the better. 

Thanks.
Dough Fermentation Tool
http://www.shadergraphics.com

Offline quietdesperation

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I found a new use for this data :D

at the outset of the pandemic I ran out of yeast, had no idea when I'd find more, ordered 16 ounces of ady from amazon and idy from walmart. I placed the yeast into two small, different colored Tupperware containers in our freezer. Last week I realized that I'd lost track of which was which so I made three sets of two dough balls, each set has its own yeast amount and then matched fermentation outcomes with the table.

 I'm probably the only idiot in the history of the forum that doesn't label their tupperware containers but thought I'd post in case someone else makes the same mistake.

best,
« Last Edit: July 27, 2021, 08:19:23 PM by quietdesperation »
jeff

Offline BeanAnimal

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #557 on: August 01, 2021, 12:16:21 PM »
Is the data here available in spreadsheet or csv form?  I have old eyes and work from a small device in my kitchen and would love to build a quick lookup front end for this data.

The amount of work and detail put into this model and thread is amazing.

Offline quietdesperation

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jeff

Offline Numerator

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Re: Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results
« Reply #559 on: August 01, 2021, 11:00:19 PM »
Is the data here available in spreadsheet or csv form?  I have old eyes and work from a small device in my kitchen and would love to build a quick lookup front end for this data.

The amount of work and detail put into this model and thread is amazing.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1yOLUHuvG4jionoQ7fP0f-uDO7JrXRwcf0DR7nBss2Pw/edit#gid=0
Dough Fermentation Tool
http://www.shadergraphics.com

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