Pages:
Actions
  • #1 by Buddha on 24 Nov 2021
  • I have been very happy with using Caputo Americana in my NY style pizzas. How does it compare to All Trumps? Do I need bromated or non bromated? All trumps is much less expensive as I am paying 26 dollars on Amazon for 9 lbs. of caputo americana and All Trumps s 43 for 25 lbs. If they are similar I may use all trumps as I believe that is the  de facto flour that most NYC pizza joints use.
  • #2 by 02ebz06 on 24 Nov 2021
  • Can't tell you how they compare, but Amazon has shipping charges built into the price of flours, and flour is heavy.
    Have you tried a local food service warehouse?

    I get my flour at one here.

  • #3 by Pizza_Not_War on 24 Nov 2021
  • I believe they are completely different flours. If you are going to buy online you'd be better off buying Central Milling direct and getting an organic flour for less money even with shipping added on.

    If I was going with a bromated vs. non bromated I'd always choose non bromated, non bleached flours. Since I prefer Organic flours it isn't something I'd ever buy. Personally see no reason to import flour when we have lots of smaller American companies producing similar if not better products.
  • #4 by Buddha on 24 Nov 2021
  • I believe they are completely different flours. If you are going to buy online you'd be better off buying Central Milling direct and getting an organic flour for less money even with shipping added on.

    If I was going with a bromated vs. non bromated I'd always choose non bromated, non bleached flours. Since I prefer Organic flours it isn't something I'd ever buy. Personally see no reason to import flour when we have lots of smaller American companies producing similar if not better products.

    What flours are good for NY style at Central Millimg?
  • #5 by Buddha on 24 Nov 2021
  • Can't tell you how they compare, but Amazon has shipping charges built into the price of flours, and flour is heavy.
    Have you tried a local food service warehouse?

    I get my flour at one here.

    I have plenty of places to buy flour but none have Caputo Americana which has worked great for me. I am looking for an alternative that will give me similar results.
  • #6 by Pizza_Not_War on 24 Nov 2021
  • What flours are good for NY style at Central Millimg?
    Currently using High Mountain, previously used 00 or 00 reinforced. All of them work great and I add a bit of malt or sugar for browning as they don't add malt to the flour. I think I like the high mountain best as it also works great in breads.
  • #7 by calum4 on 25 Nov 2021
  • Iím in the UK so Iíve never used All Trumps.

    I use Americana though and Iíve looked into the nutritional side of it and itís very similar to All Trumps.

    Caputo also flew out a bunch of NYC pizzeria owners and Scott Wiener to Naples to Ďdesigní the Americana flour so Iím going to hazard a guess itís very close to All Trumps.
  • #8 by scott r on 25 Nov 2021
  • It doesnt brown quite as fast, and it doesnt seem quite as strong as all trumps.   To me its more similar to full strength than all trumps, and thats a great flour that is used a lot in NY as well.    It makes great pizza and can do the things you need it to do (NY style pizza, longer ferments, longer preferments/biga) better than Caputo pizzeria.  I would say its more "in the direction of" all trumps than most European flours.   Other good ones to try if you want all trumps in Europe are polseli super and caputo nuvolo super.   
  • #9 by Buddha on 25 Nov 2021
  • It doesnt brown quite as fast, and it doesnt seem quite as strong as all trumps.   To me its more similar to full strength than all trumps, and thats a great flour that is used a lot in NY as well.    It makes great pizza and can do the things you need it to do (NY style pizza, longer ferments, longer preferments/biga) better than Caputo pizzeria.  I would say its more "in the direction of" all trumps than most European flours.   Other good ones to try if you want all trumps in Europe are polseli super and caputo nuvolo super.

    Do you prefer all trumps to Americana for NY style? It is certainly less expensive. I paid 26 dollars for only 9 lbs. on Amazon for the americana.
  • #10 by scott r on 25 Nov 2021
  • I havent done any testing side by side with those flours and a slower bake.   I always go a bit faster myself, but I can assure you that you can absolutely make the same pizza with any of the flours I have mentioned.   You might want to mix a little longer with one, change the hydration slightly, add a little diastatic malt, or ball one a little earlier, but with a few small tweaks they will all make absolute top notch NY style pizza, and all at the same quality level. 
  • #11 by [email protected] on 25 Nov 2021
  • My find this thread of interest if you havenít seen already.

    https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=56915.0
  • #12 by RHawthorne on 25 Nov 2021
  • AT flour is definitely the more appropriate flour for NY style pizza dough, but a lot of people, like myself, are turned off by the fact that it's bleached and bromated. There is an unbleached and unbromated version, if that's a concern for you. The Caputo flour is nice, but it's a whole different animal; made from soft European winter wheat, as opposed to the hard spring wheat that most American flour is made from. The gluten character you'll get in the dough, and the resulting chew, are quite a bit different. The Caputo flour can get a reasonable crisp on it if it's baked properly, but the chew will never be the same as you'd get from an American flour.
  • #13 by Buddha on 25 Nov 2021
  • AT flour is definitely the more appropriate flour for NY style pizza dough, but a lot of people, like myself, are turned off by the fact that it's bleached and bromated. There is an unbleached and unbromated version, if that's a concern for you. The Caputo flour is nice, but it's a whole different animal; made from soft European winter wheat, as opposed to the hard spring wheat that most American flour is made from. The gluten character you'll get in the dough, and the resulting chew, are quite a bit different. The Caputo flour can get a reasonable crisp on it if it's baked properly, but the chew will never be the same as you'd get from an American flour.

    I thought that Tom Lehman said that there was nothing to worry about with the bleached and bromated flour.
  • #14 by scott r on 26 Nov 2021
  • I personally don't buy the bleached and bromated version of that flour.  I prefer the one they sell without those additives just to be safe, and instead mix longer to compensate.     
  • #15 by [email protected] on 26 Nov 2021
  • Guess Iím living dangerously. ATBB has become my go to flour for all kinds of baked goods, not just NY Style. Use it in most breads, rolls, chocolate chip cookies and even makes for a lovely texture in bťchamel sauce.

    I already live at altitude and down wind from Rocky Flats, a facility that manufactured triggers for nuclear weapons for half a century. If itís the ATBB that gets me, wellÖ what a delicious way to go.
  • #16 by TXCraig1 on 26 Nov 2021
  • I had been under the impression that potassium bromate primarily worked during the mixing process, but I read this recently:

    "Potassium bromate was first recommended as a bread improver in 1916 to increase loaf volume and improve texture. Since then bromate and to a lesser degree iodate have been widely used and subjected to extensive research. The effects of both halogenates are based on the oxidation of free SH groups in dough increasing the strength of gluten. In contrast to ascorbic acid, both halogenates do not require molecular oxygen to exert their improving effect. The major difference between iodate and bromate is the fast action of iodate and the slow action of bromate. Under normal conditions, potassium bromate has essentially no effect during mixing, and about half of the added bromate is still present after mixing and a 4-hour rest (Bushuk and Hlynka, 1960). Bromate affects dough rheology during fermentation and baking. Because bromate reacts faster at lower pH, its effect is accelerated during fermentation."

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/book/9780857090607/breadmaking
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/agricultural-and-biological-sciences/potassium-bromate
  • #17 by scott r on 26 Nov 2021
  • This makes a lot of sense based on what I see in the field.   Basically, the non bromated dough and the bromated dough both appear to be mixed to the same level of gluten production out of the mixer, but then when I bake off the pizzas they show their differences.
  • #18 by scott r on 26 Nov 2021
  • The Caputo flour is nice, but it's a whole different animal; made from soft European winter wheat, as opposed to the hard spring wheat that most American flour is made from. The gluten character you'll get in the dough, and the resulting chew, are quite a bit different. The Caputo flour can get a reasonable crisp on it if it's baked properly, but the chew will never be the same as you'd get from an American flour.

    I worked with caputo Americana quite a bit at a coal fired pizzeria I was consulting for.  That was the flour they were using when I first began working with them.  The reason they needed my help to improve their crust wasn't a problem caused by the flour they were using (it never is), but I suggested bringing in all trumps and a few other flours to do side by side shoot outs like I always do when consulting. I do this to show people how small of a difference different brands of flour will make in the finished product as long as they are in the same general protein range and the proper mixing and recipe adjustments are made. 

    The unanimous decision was that the pizza we were making with all trumps and the one we were making with Caputo Americana were so similar that there was no need to spend all that extra money on the imported flour. Admittedly, this was a 4-5 minute pizza, so not true NY style, but im not sure it would be any different with a slower bake.

    Some things to consider:

    Caputo says publicly that they bring in some of the wheat that they use in their blends from North America

    Caputo says publicly that their Manitoba product is made with hard spring wheat, so why wouldn't they use that as part of the blend in their Americana product? 
  • #19 by waltertore on 26 Nov 2021
  • Caputo flours have a lot of hype around them.  I have tried the Americana but it is way overpriced IMO and not worth it.  I grew up with bleached/bromated and when we moved to Reno I was worried about bromated not available in the west.  Also was worried about the altitude, low humidity, and lake Tahoe water that comes out the faucets here.  All said I feel my pies are as good as any I made back east. 
  • #20 by Buddha on 26 Nov 2021
  • Caputo flours have a lot of hype around them.  I have tried the Americana but it is way overpriced IMO and not worth it.  I grew up with bleached/bromated and when we moved to Reno I was worried about bromated not available in the west.  Also was worried about the altitude, low humidity, and lake Tahoe water that comes out the faucets here.  All said I feel my pies are as good as any I made back east.

    What flour and method do you use now in Reno?
Pages:
Actions