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Offline TheSicialianSq

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Questions regarding yeast activity!
« on: March 14, 2021, 12:14:35 AM »
Recently i've been doing an autolyse and adding the salt and yeast after the fact. Then i'll bulk ferment at room temp aiming for a desired dough temp of 70 degrees and then I'll cold ferment it for 2 days. Divide and ball the dough and let it cold ferment for 2 more days totally 4 days. I am finding a very dense crumb structure with not a significant rise. My yeast is not dead, I have checked this already. I am wondering if I am slowing down the yeast activity too much or what I am doing wrong which is eliminating the oven spring of my pizza. Perhaps my yeast amount is too little?

The Recipe:

Flour: 100% (50% bread+50% AP blend)
Water: 65%
Oil: 3%
Salt: 2.2%
Yeast: 0.1% (IDY)

Workflow:

In mixing bowl I add cold water about 42 degrees>oil next>then the flour (60 degrees Fahrenheit)

Mix for 1 minute on low speed of an old double hooked stand mixer.

Let it "autolyse for 30 minutes"

Add the yeast (IDY) and then mix for 1 minute on speed 1.

Add the Sea Salt and the mix for 1 minute on speed 1.

Bulk ferment at room temperature of roughly 73 degrees Fahrenheit for a total of 1 hour. At the half way point (30 minutes) I perform a few stretch and folds to the best of my ability. Then it rests for usually 30 more minutes or until it reaches a desired dough temp of 70 degrees and then it goes into the fridge for 2 days. At the 2 day mark I bring it out of the fridge for 1.5 hours so I can relax the dough enough to divide and ball. Then it goes back in the fridge for an additional 2-3 days to bring the total process to 4-5 days. On the day of the bake, the dough is brought out 4 hours prior to bring the temp up enough for it to be very relaxed.

I do not find that the dough has risen much if at all during this entire fermentation period.

I cook it in a breville pizzaiolo with a 600 degree bottom deck temp and a 450 top temp. I turn up the top temp to 750 degrees within the last few minutes just to finish the top of the pizza.

I do not find I get much oven spring.

I let it sit on a rack for about a minute and then I cut into it.

« Last Edit: March 14, 2021, 10:58:20 AM by TheSicialianSq »

Offline QwertyJuan

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Re: Questions regarding yeast activity!
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2021, 01:34:41 AM »
You are probably WAY overfermenting your dough.

Like Tom always asked... you need to post your recipe before anyone can help you. Preferably in bakers' percentages.

Offline TheSicialianSq

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Re: Questions regarding yeast activity!
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2021, 06:32:45 AM »
You are probably WAY overfermenting your dough.

Like Tom always asked... you need to post your recipe before anyone can help you. Preferably in bakers' percentages.


Here have a look I just modified the post.

Offline Loarina Vega

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Re: Questions regarding yeast activity!
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2021, 09:34:30 AM »
Yes I agree with TheSiciliansq.....way overfermenting.    If you do a  CF for 3 days no need for a Bulk Ferment...  and I always foam my yeast water sugar and a pinch of flour for 20 min before I make a batch  at my Pizza Stand  LoriVsPizza central market york pa.

Offline TheSicialianSq

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Re: Questions regarding yeast activity!
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2021, 10:24:48 AM »
Yes I agree with TheSiciliansq.....way overfermenting.    If you do a  CF for 3 days no need for a Bulk Ferment...  and I always foam my yeast water sugar and a pinch of flour for 20 min before I make a batch  at my Pizza Stand  LoriVsPizza central market york pa.

What makes you think it is overfermented?

Given how much the temp is controlled and its stored at 37 degrees I don't believe the yeast activity would be very high. To put in perspective I am using less than half of a gram of yeast 0.3 grams to be precise.

My dough doesn't snap back at all and seems to have strong gluten development as I can get it nearly paper thing and I don't experience any tearing. I do not recall it having an alcohol smell to it either.

« Last Edit: March 14, 2021, 10:50:23 AM by TheSicialianSq »

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Offline texmex

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Re: Questions regarding yeast activity!
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2021, 11:15:22 AM »
My work flow for mixing small batch is similar, except I do not try to achieve a certain temp before putting the bulk dough in cold storage, just a cohesive normal looking dough with a little strength to it. 
On the 2nd day you say you are taking the dough out of fridge for 1.5 hours... balling then back into cold storage for more days in balls...what is the condition of your dough at this point? Is it bubbly, or not? I would skip that midway RT fermenting then balling for more cold storage.
I take the bulk dough out of fridge the day of the bake, ball it up and leave at RT until ready for the bake.  Everything hangs in the balance though, because of ambient room temps, and sometimes the dough needs a warming station or cooling area to get ready for the big show. 
Reesa

Offline TheSicialianSq

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Re: Questions regarding yeast activity!
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2021, 11:47:55 AM »
My work flow for mixing small batch is similar, except I do not try to achieve a certain temp before putting the bulk dough in cold storage, just a cohesive normal looking dough with a little strength to it. 
On the 2nd day you say you are taking the dough out of fridge for 1.5 hours... balling then back into cold storage for more days in balls...what is the condition of your dough at this point? Is it bubbly, or not? I would skip that midway RT fermenting then balling for more cold storage.
I take the bulk dough out of fridge the day of the bake, ball it up and leave at RT until ready for the bake.  Everything hangs in the balance though, because of ambient room temps, and sometimes the dough needs a warming station or cooling area to get ready for the big show. 

So after roughly 48 hours I take it out of the fridge and then divide and ball. I am doing a small batch that makes two dough balls of roughly 250 grams each. But no there are no bubbles at all and the dough is smooth.

I used to follow a similar workflow before but I would add the IDY to the mixture right away and hold off on the salt and olive oil until after a 30 minute rest period. I recall it having more spring to it, previously id use cold water of about 63 degrees now its more like 40 degrees.

The other major difference in my recipe would be instead of AP+Bread 50/50 mix I was going 100% Bread flour.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2021, 11:52:36 AM by TheSicialianSq »

Offline texmex

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Re: Questions regarding yeast activity!
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2021, 12:24:45 PM »
I think your dough is actually underfermented, if you have no bubbles when the balls have been in fridge for 2 days. 

I used to worry about when to add ingredients, but sometimes dump and stir then S&F between rests is good enough. I don't bother to use my mixer any more.

My last batch with IDY was this method....Place all of the water, half the AP flour, pinch of yeast and sugar if you're using it, blend it up and wait 30 minutes to an hour then incorporate the salt, oil and remaining flour. Let rest 20 minutes for 3 stretch and fold sessions over 1 hour. Then store the bulk dough in fridge until day of bake. I made the same size batch as you do. At the ball stage the dough was puffed up enough next day to need deflating, and then it regained bubbly form about 2 hours later at room temp.  If there are no bubbles, it's not ready. If you have to fight to stretch it, itís not ready.


My dough from this weekend had sourdough as well as a pinch of IDY and 1/3 whole wheat. Even after balling and leaving them in a warm area, it still took a full 6 hours to reach prime. I had small bubbles at 3 hours, and the first of 6 pizzas was much denser, with improvement over a leisurely few hours of baking pies.  Here is a pic of the 7th dough that I never got around to baking. It fermented all that time and I threw it back in the fridge. Experience tells me that this dough will have a sponge texture, and open easily even while cold. If I let it warm up, it may be prone to tearing.

Reesa

Offline QwertyJuan

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Re: Questions regarding yeast activity!
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2021, 11:10:51 PM »
I may be wrong about the over fermentation....

According to Craig's chart... your fermentation is probably ok.

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,26831.msg349349.html#msg349349

At 37 degrees you should have to ferment for 133 hours. With all the room temp stuff you are doing, you are probably pretty close.

HOWEVER... your problem "may" be the AP flour. I remember Peter posting links for me YEARS ago, where Tom talked about how some flours(specfically the AP flour I was using) was NOT suited to long ferments. I changed to baker's flour and it fixed my problem. Try your exact same recipe and yeast level and use 100% bakers flour(you may want to up your hydration at the same time... bakers flour tends to need more moisture to hydrate properly. I would suggest another 1% or 2%).

The only other thing that I can think is that your fridge ISN'T keeping a nice steady 37 degrees. If it's going up and down a lot, and especially if it's your home fridge and you are opening the door all the time, your dough could indeed be overfermented.

Just a few things to ponder. :)

Offline TheSicialianSq

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Re: Questions regarding yeast activity!
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2021, 01:17:59 PM »
I may be wrong about the over fermentation....

According to Craig's chart... your fermentation is probably ok.

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,26831.msg349349.html#msg349349

At 37 degrees you should have to ferment for 133 hours. With all the room temp stuff you are doing, you are probably pretty close.

HOWEVER... your problem "may" be the AP flour. I remember Peter posting links for me YEARS ago, where Tom talked about how some flours(specfically the AP flour I was using) was NOT suited to long ferments. I changed to baker's flour and it fixed my problem. Try your exact same recipe and yeast level and use 100% bakers flour(you may want to up your hydration at the same time... bakers flour tends to need more moisture to hydrate properly. I would suggest another 1% or 2%).

The only other thing that I can think is that your fridge ISN'T keeping a nice steady 37 degrees. If it's going up and down a lot, and especially if it's your home fridge and you are opening the door all the time, your dough could indeed be overfermented.

Just a few things to ponder. :)



I think I had actually two issues. I was speaking with Noel Brohner and he was telling me my yeast is probably too old. I had it sitting on the counter top unrefrigerated for 10 months. I am also using stone ground flour which I didn't realize at the time can absorb a lot more water. Plus all the bran and germ thats left in the mix just adversely effects the performance. I am gonna try cutting it with other flour. I am gonna try to go 70/30. Caputo 00 Blue bag with this stone ground bread flour. If that doesn't work Ill grab a bag of strong white bakers flour.

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Offline texmex

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Re: Questions regarding yeast activity!
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2021, 01:29:08 PM »


I think I had actually two issues. I was speaking with Noel Brohner and he was telling me my yeast is probably too old. I had it sitting on the counter top unrefrigerated for 10 months. I am also using stone ground flour which I didn't realize at the time can absorb a lot more water. Plus all the bran and germ thats left in the mix just adversely effects the performance. I am gonna try cutting it with other flour. I am gonna try to go 70/30. Caputo 00 Blue bag with this stone ground bread flour. If that doesn't work Ill grab a bag of strong white bakers flour.


I could swore you said in 1st post that you checked the viability of your yeast. Definitely store your yeast in the freezer, it will last for years! If you can sift out some of your bran from the flour that might help too.
Reesa

Offline TheSicialianSq

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Re: Questions regarding yeast activity!
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2021, 12:25:35 AM »

I could swore you said in 1st post that you checked the viability of your yeast. Definitely store your yeast in the freezer, it will last for years! If you can sift out some of your bran from the flour that might help too.


I did. Technically it was still alive but it is on its last legs and performing sub-optimally. Like it responded to sugar and warm water but not as much as it should have but then I talked to a pizza consultant and he was saying yeast left out for 10 months isn't going to perform well.

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