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Offline nlavon

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Whole Wheat Help
« on: March 29, 2021, 06:03:21 AM »
I want to create a pizza with a sourdough starter (20 percent) and whole wheat flour at 30 percent of the flour. The rest is Bread Flour. Here is my basic formula:

Pct           Ingred   Grams
100.00% Flour           352.66
70.00%   Water            246.86
1.75%     Salt               6.17
1.50%   Olive Oil       5.29
173.25%              610.98

Preferment (Sourdough Starter, 20%):
20.00%                70.53
50.00%   Flour             35.27
50.00%   Water     35.27
TOTAL               

The remainder of the dough would be:
90.00%   Flour           317.39
60.00%   Water   211.59
1.75%   Salt              6.17
1.50%   Olive Oil      5.29
153.25%              540.45

So, if I wanted to use a 70/30 mixture of Bread Flour and Whole Wheat in the remainder, I calculated that the Bread Flour would be 222.17 grams and the Whole Wheat would be 95.22 grams.

I did read the late Tom Lehmann's article on using White Flour/Whole wheat flour mixed in pizza dough and using different absorption rates for the respective flours. When I went to measure his suggestion of hydrating 300 grams of whole wheat flour with a 70 percent absorption rate (210 grams), it took another 115 grams of water to get a "stiff oatmeal" like appearance of the flour. Backing that total down five percent, that calculates to an absorption rate of 103.3%. I used Target's Good and Gather Whole Wheat flour. Is that even remotely possible?

If it is, then using my absorption rates of 70 percent for the 222.17 grams of bread flour, and 103.3% of the 95.22 grams of whole wheat flour, I would add 155.52 grams of water for the Bread Flour, and 98.36 grams for the whole wheat flour. That's a total of 253.88 grams, an increase of 42.29 grams over the total of water if there was no whole wheat flour in the mixture.

So, is that it? Just the addition of 42.29 grams of water to the mixture?  Something doesn't seem right to me, so I would appreciate any help. Thanks!

Offline foreplease

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Re: Whole Wheat Help
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2021, 05:40:02 PM »
I have been working to reach a happy point with 2 different doughs. On has 20% white whole wheat and the other has 20% spelt. After a few trials I am content and no longer interested in making any more changes to those 2 formulas. Here is t I learned and it will be easier, less dry (no dry) and more flavorful than you may think.


Ignore for now your last 3 paragraphs. I donít think you have it exactly right.


-put all of your whole wheat in a bowl, looks like 70.53 g (but consider doubling this batch because you are going to like it)
-measure out all of your formula water of 246.86 g
- put approx 140 g of the water in the bowl with your whole wheat flour. Stir to blend, cover with a plat or plastic wrap at room temp for 30 min. Then stir again and proceed.


I canít help you with the sourdough part of it. Are you actually adding a starter you have maintained or making a poolish and calling it sourdough? As someone who uses IDY I would continue the above by adding 20% of my total IDY and about 70 g of the bread flour to the whole wheat and water mixture. Stir well, cover and leave on your counter for 6-8 hours.then add the remaining ingredients and mix well.


For myself, the thin and crispy one with spelt could be ready 5-6 hrs from when I finish mixing it if  I leave it at room temp.i prefer to have it spend a couple days, anywhere from 2-10 in the fridge though. I use 0.35% IDY for same day room temp dough, 0.25%if I plan to put it in the fridge. The other one is a riff onthe Apizza Scholls formula that has been popular here. I use 0.04% IDY in that and follow his workflow with locally available ingredients.


I am using less water than you are and getting good results. Here is the main takeaway: get your whole wheat flour thoroughly wet, then make the rest of your dough. Let me know if you want links or have questions.


Good luck!


EDIT: correction-I used weights for 20% whole wheat. For the first step I described, put 106g whole wheat flour in a bowl and add about 212 g water (cool temp) from your total formula flour. This will get you to30% whole wheat adequately hydrated.

« Last Edit: March 29, 2021, 05:43:53 PM by foreplease »
-Tony

Offline nlavon

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Re: Whole Wheat Help
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2021, 10:21:38 AM »
Hey, thanks for this. I interpret what you are saying as a whole wheat soaker which I also read about. Obviously, I have a lot to learn about whole wheat flour, but, so be it.

Actually, I went ahead and made my formula yesterday. It was awful. The hydration rate, combined, was over 80 percent, and the dough was a sticky, unworkable mess. At least, it was a sticky, unworkable mess for someone like me. I can handle 70 percent hydration doughs, but this was beyond my skills. In the garbage it went, and I will live to bake another day.

Yes, I am using a sourdough starter. I got some from a neighbor and have been feeding it over several weeks, using first whole wheat flour, then rye. I have used poolishes and bigas for pizzas in the past and they have worked out really well, particularly the thicker kind of pizzas I like to bake on a stone in the oven.

I will follow your advice here and try this down the road. If I am reading your last paragraph correctly, my whole wheat flour total would go up from 95.22 to 106 grams, and I would use 212 grams of water to make a soaker. Let it sit for 30 minutes, then add about 1/3 of the remaining bread flour (74 g) in, along with all of the sourdough starter (at 70.53 g). Wait for eight hours, add the rest of the bread flour and the remaining ingredients and ferment.

Can I ask how you came up with the totals of whole wheat and water for the soaker?
I am looking at the Perfect Loaf's sourdough and whole wheat pizza [https://www.theperfectloaf.com/whole-wheat-sourdough-pizza-dough/] as an alternative to what I had but now I am intrigued by your suggestions. Thanks again, it is much appreciated

Offline nlavon

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Re: Whole Wheat Help
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2021, 10:33:23 AM »
A second point.

I am assuming that the 70.53 grams of starter are split evenly between flour and water. Are those totals to be accommodated in the remaining formula flours?

Best,

Offline foreplease

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Re: Whole Wheat Help
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2021, 11:37:23 AM »
I used your formula and got confused with 20% figure you showed for SD starter and used that as your whole wheat percentage of the total formula. It was a mistake I made, nothing you did. My edit was to take 30% of your total flour weight, as I understand it, of 352.66 and came up with 105.798 whole wheat flour in the dough. I called it 106 g.


Yes, soaker is the term I have learned for what I do. Iím no expert but got tired of trying to use any ww and failing. I got interested to appease 2 younger generations but also because I hoped it would taste good. I learned that more water does a better job of soaking than more time. Frankly, I get everything out and weighed and do the soaker and poolish by subtraction. I used the figure of twice the flour weight for the soakerís water weight so you would use enough. I eyeball it now, leaving some to soften the grey salt and a little to disperse the IDY since I am adding them after poolish has done its thing.


I know almost nothing about SD but am being encouraged by friends here to start down that path, which I plan to do very soon. Maybe you can help me then. :) Whether SD or IDY, I am confident that getting your ww thoroughly wet will bring good results.





« Last Edit: March 30, 2021, 11:38:55 AM by foreplease »
-Tony

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Offline foreplease

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Re: Whole Wheat Help
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2021, 11:41:04 AM »
A second point.

I am assuming that the 70.53 grams of starter are split evenly between flour and water. Are those totals to be accommodated in the remaining formula flours?

Best,
As I understand SD baking, the formula amounts are the law and amounts of water and flour in your starter get subtracted from those in the total formula. I think it is the only way to keep your total hydration on track.
-Tony

Offline nlavon

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Re: Whole Wheat Help
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2021, 12:28:13 PM »
OK, thanks for clarifying. I will make the adjustments and try this. Can't wait!

Offline nlavon

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Re: Whole Wheat Help
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2021, 01:01:24 PM »
I have recalibrated the formula based on your advice, interpreted a bit, and used the kind of dough management that I have in the past, save for the special attention to the introduction of whole wheat flour. Let me know what you think:

Formula             
Pct   Ingred   Grams   Bread   W Wheat
100.00%   Flour   352.66   246.86   105.80
70.00%   Water   246.86      
1.75%   Salt   6.17      
1.50%   O Oil   5.29      
173.25%      610.98      
            
Preferment   Ingred   Grams      
20.00%      70.53      
50.00%   Flour   35.27      
50.00%   Water   35.27      
TOTAL      70.53      
            
Remainder            
Pct   Ingred   Grams   Bread   W Wheat
90.00%   Flour   317.39   222.17   95.22
60.00%   Water   211.59      
1.75%   Salt   6.17      
1.50%   O Oil   5.29      
153.25%      540.45      
            
Soaker            
Pct   Ingred    Grams      
100.00%   WW Flour 95.22      
200.00%   Water   190.44      
            
Remainder II      
Pct   Ingred    Grams
70.00%   Br Flour 222.17
22.86%   Water    56.43
1.75%   Salt     6.17
1.50%   O Oil     5.29
      290.06
            
Directions:

1. Make the soaker. Put all of the whole wheat flour (95.22 grams) in a bowl, add 190.44 grams of water. Stir and blend. Cover with plastic wrap, ferment at room temperature for 30 minutes.

2. Add the sourdough starter and 1/3 of the bread flour (74 grams) to the whole wheat flour mixture. Stir well, cover, leave for 6-8 hours at room temperature.

3. Add the rest of the bread flour, water (watch the hydration), the olive oil, and salt. Ferment at room temperature for one hour. Cold ferment for two days.

4. Pull from refrigerator, come to room temperature, shape, let rest until ready to bake.

Offline foreplease

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Re: Whole Wheat Help
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2021, 09:39:37 PM »
I think it looks good and practical. I did not check math line by line but know you have that. Was glad to see in your notes to make soaker first. Youíre still a little wetter than I run but you said you can handle 70% and like the results. Really, I am so far from the most experienced person here, but thought I could help with the soaker idea.


I do not know enough about SD starters (yet) to know how the 1 hr RT ferment will work out on the front end but trust that you do. Iím looking forward to a couple pics and seeing how much of your problem this improved.
-Tony

Offline nlavon

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Re: Whole Wheat Help
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2021, 09:18:01 AM »
I'll do this down the road once I get a little more confident with sourdough starters. The thing with them is that you don't just pull it out of the jar and drop it in the formula. It has to be, according to sourdough experts, "ripe," or ready to bake. Which means several feedings, discards, etc., until the starter is literally foaming over the top of the container. Yet KAF has a recipe for sourdough pizza that just calls for a cup of discard (with a half teaspoon of yeast) so the sourdough would be mostly for flavoring.

Now that I understand whole wheat more, I will try and use that in a pizza without the sourdough, and maybe use a sourdough starter when I have lots of time to futz with it, without the whole wheat. Then, finally combine the two.

I have a timeline I need to adhere to this week, so I shelved the sourdough-whole wheat pizza project but learning about the soaker and its role in whole wheat pizza baking was worth the endeavor.

Again, thanks for your response. Into the memory bank (and written instructions) it goes!

Happy pizza making!

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Offline nlavon

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Re: Whole Wheat Help
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2021, 09:19:06 AM »
By the way, I didn't notice any folding or kneading of the dough. Is that a step in your process?

Offline foreplease

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Re: Whole Wheat Help
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2021, 11:36:37 AM »
By the way, I didn't notice any folding or kneading of the dough. Is that a step in your process?
Yes, the one with white whole wheat gets 3-4 folds over 90 -120 min, then balled and into fridge in individual round (it is much easier to make round pizzas with round dough balls). The thin and crispy one with spelt gets a 5-6 min mix then 2 min or less kneading on counter, then into balls and fridge as above. Both are 62% water. One has 1.5% oil, other has 2%. They handle quite a bit differently. The IDY is quite a bit higher on the thin and crispy: 0.35% vs 0.04%


We were mostly talking about small changes to your process so I didn;t want to confuse or cast doubt on your overall process, just how to get the whole wheat good and weí using your existing formula amounts.
-Tony

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