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Offline luckydutch

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Dough not rising at all
« on: April 05, 2021, 01:27:31 PM »
I've had the same issue with my pizza dough two batches in a row now where the final dough balls have just not risen at all and I've ended up with very dense pizza that's hard work to eat when I should have a beautiful light crust.

I am using a 25% poolish as a pre-ferment and find that the poolish shows little activity and nearly no rise after 24h in the fridge but then quickly doubles in size when left to bench-rest for an hour before mixing with the rest of the flour and water to make the final dough. The dough balls form nicely and have strong gluten but then in the 4 hour prove time for the final balls there is absolutely zero rising at all and after 4 hours prooving they're a moist putty rather than an airy dough!

I've included some pictures of my poolish after the 24h in the fridge showing low-activity. It was half a cup after mixing and has barely risen from that point at all. I also included a picture of the final ball after the unsuccessful prooving.

Recipe:

Poolish: 75g flour, 75ml water, 0.5g (0.25 tsp) fast acting dry yeast

Dough: Poolish + 220g flour, 120ml water, 9g salt

Method:

Mix yeast in room temperature water and mix with flour to form poolish. Mix well then cover and leave in the fridge for 24
(Due to lack of activity in poolish) Pull the poolish out of the fridge after 24h and leave to ferment at room temperature for 1-2 hours
Disolve poolish in remaining water
Mix in 50% of the remaining flour
Add salt
Mix remaining flour then knead well
Leave covered for 20 minutes
Oil hands then fold to strengthen surface tension on the dough and form a good ball
Leave covered for 1 hour
Cut in half and form two smaller balls
Leave to prove at room temperature for 4 hours

Any help in troubleshooting would be much appreciated! I'm at a loss as to why this dough is not rising at all in the final proof as the poolish is showing good activity after the ferment at room temperature and I am having no issues developing a strong gluten structure.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Dough not rising at all
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2021, 06:05:28 PM »
luckydutch,

In my experience and research, a poolish preferment is typically pre-fermented for several hours, and sometimes even longer, at room (or other ambient) temperature. Once the poolish peaks and starts to recede, it is ready to be incorporated into the final dough. However, at this point. some people will then cold ferment the poolish for one or more days before incorporating into the final dough. And that final dough might also be cold fermented. One of our members, Norma, used the foregoing series of steps when she had her pizza stand at a market in Pennsylvania and had to make the poolish (at ambient temperature) on a Friday and then cold ferment it over the weekend (when the market was closed) to then be used on the following Monday to make the dough, which then was cold fermented for another day. The reason I mention all of this is to confirm that a poolish can be cold fermented but it is typically pre-fermented at room temperature before cold fermenting it.

As for the yeast, it can be included entirely in the poolish or split between the poolish and the final dough. In your case, I calculated a baker's percent for the yeast you used in your poolish at 0.5/75 = 0.67%. Seeing this number, and since I cannot recall anyone doing what you did with your poolish, can you tell us if you observed the performance of your poolish at any time during the 24-hour cold fermentation period? If so, can you describe what you saw?

To the foregoing, I would add that your yeast as a percent of the total flour comes to 0.17%. Maybe that wasn't the proper amount to use for your particular application, especially since the poolish was cold when it was incorporated with the rest of the ingredients. Moreover, the salt you used, at around 3%, might have impeded the fermentation of the dough and made it stiffer.

On the matter of poolish, I have always been guided either by our members who have worked with poolish preferments or the teachings on the subject of Didier Rosada in the two articles he put together at:

http://web.archive.org/web/20040814193817/cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm and at

http://web.archive.org/web/20050829015510/www.cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food4_dec2004.htm

Unfortunately, the photos were not recreated in the archived articles at the Wayback Machine.

Peter


Offline megan45

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Re: Dough not rising at all
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2021, 08:25:57 PM »
Recipe:

Poolish: 75g flour, 75ml water, 0.5g (0.25 tsp) fast acting dry yeast

Mix yeast in room temperature water and mix with flour to form poolish. Mix well then cover and leave in the fridge for 24
(Due to lack of activity in poolish) Pull the poolish out of the fridge after 24h
and leave to ferment at room temperature for 1-2 hours

Fast acting yeast is not suitable for refrigerated dough or long, slow rises.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Dough not rising at all
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2021, 08:57:12 PM »
Fast acting yeast is not suitable for refrigerated dough or long, slow rises.
megan45,

Since luckydutch is not from the United Stares, I thought that he was referring to IDY, which is sometimes referred to as “fast acting yeast”:

https://www.goodhousekeeping.com/food-recipes/cooking/a32950543/yeast-active-dry-vs-instant/

But it is good that you raise the point, and hopefully luckydutch will clarify what he is actually using.

Peter


Offline parallei

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Re: Dough not rising at all
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2021, 09:57:28 PM »
Fast acting yeast is not suitable for refrigerated dough or long, slow rises.

I'm pretty sure Fleischmann RapidRise and BreadMachine yeasts are the same damn thing. Both IDY's. I've been using Fleischmann RaidRise, Fleischmann BreadMachine, and SAF Red Bag IDY interchangeably for years. They all do a cold ferment dough just fine. Look at the first photo in the link you posted. The Fleischmann BreadMachine jar says "also ideal for all RapidRise Recipes".

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Offline QwertyJuan

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Re: Dough not rising at all
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2021, 10:46:11 PM »
I'm pretty sure Fleischmann RapidRise and BreadMachine yeasts are the same damn thing. Both IDY's. I've been using Fleischmann RaidRise, Fleischmann BreadMachine, and SAF Red Bag IDY interchangeably for years. They all do a cold ferment dough just fine. Look at the first photo in the link you posted. The Fleischmann BreadMachine jar says "also ideal for all RapidRise Recipes".

There is a different kind of yeast that Fleischmann's makes. I rememeber Tom mentioning that is was NOT the same strain of yeast as SAF. I think it's called "quick rise" or something like that...

Offline luckydutch

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Re: Dough not rising at all
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2021, 05:14:55 AM »
Thank you for the feedback everyone.

Some points of clarification:

  • The yeast I use is fast action dried yeast (pics attached). I just like it because it comes in little individual sachets which is quite convenient for keeping it fresh. I feared a big pot of yeast would die before I used it all. Happy to change to a different yeast if this is unsuitable, however
  • Before I started trying to make the dough with a poolish, I used the exact same recipe making the dough outright before cold fermenting overnight and then proving the next day and it worked fine except for the dough always being sticky and annoying to work with. The only revision to the ingredient ratios that I made from that recipie for this poolish recipie is I reduced the amount of yeast by half because the poolish is being allowed to ferment for twice as long. When I made the dough outright I was using 1g of yeast instead of 0.5g in this case
  • I did not leave my poolish to ferment at room temperature before going into the fridge. Sounds like that was a mistake? I've been following the youtuber Vito Iacopelli's guide and he puts the poolish in the fridge for 24h
  • I observed very little action in the poolish during the 24h fridge ferment. The pictures attached were pictures of the poolish after 24h in the fridge and you can see just a few surface bubbles and very little growth in the size of the poolish. Only once I took the poolish out of the fridge and allowed it to ferment for 2h at room temperature did it show proper activity and double in size
  • When mixing the poolish with the remaining water and flour, the dough balls initially seem excellent - they had strong glutens, they were well-hydrated but without being a sticky mess and I was able to create the tension needed to form a good, smooth ball
  • The problem is that they then just didn't rise at all. After 4 hours rising at room temperature they had become almost like wet chewing gum - a very smooth, moist surface and holds together as a single entity without sticking to the bowl or your hands but there's no air or puffiness in the dough, it's just a blob of gum
  • I did actually manage to save my last batch by mixing some more yeast in a tiny amount of water then kneading it into the balls with a tiny dusting of flour and letting them prove in the grill above my warm over for about an hour. I've attached a picture (ignore the slight over-baking of the crust!) and you can see there was quite a good rise in the crust

What I have observed from guides is that they seem to use a tiny amount of yeast in the poolish and they don't add any more yeast to the final dough. Is it possible that I used too much yeast and it almost over-fermented so when I mixed it with the rest of the flour, there was no more action there to cause a rise?

Or is it the opposite? That the small amount of yeast I have added isn't enough to get the final dough to rise?

« Last Edit: April 06, 2021, 09:38:28 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline HansB

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Re: Dough not rising at all
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2021, 06:35:08 AM »
Use just a pinch of yeast in the poolish, add yeast to your final mix. You should be all set.
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Dough not rising at all
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2021, 12:22:35 PM »
Use just a pinch of yeast in the poolish, add yeast to your final mix. You should be all set.
Hans,

As a point of clarification, are you saying that the poolish does not have to undergo room temperature pre-fermentation and can be directly refrigerated without a period of pre-fermentation? I pretended that luckydutch's poolish was like a dough that is to be cold fermented for about 24 hours at around 39F but I could not come up with an amount of yeast (IDY) in any of Craig's tables that was anywhere close to what luckydutch used. But it is entirely possible that Craig's charts are not intended to handle a poolish with 100% hydration and no salt.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Dough not rising at all
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2021, 02:27:41 PM »
After my last post, I did a search to find Vito Iacopelli's YouTube video where he discussed making a poolish. I found the video and Vito did in fact put the poolish into the refrigerator right after making it. The part of the video where Vito covers this matter starts at about 1:58:



In the video, Vito actually made two poolish preferments, using 1 gram of dry yeast and 1 gram of fresh yeast, in each case with 50 grams of water, at ambient temperature, and 50 grams of flour. So, the percent of yeast was 2% (1/50). I am puzzled by why the amounts of yeast were the same by weight, given that 1 gram of dry yeast is not the equivalent of 1 gram of fresh yeast. But using 2% yeast and room temperature water I can see how the poolish preferments would be quite active even when in the refrigerator. And, as the video shows, both poolish jars were quite full after 24 hours of cold fermentation. Also, it does not look like the two poolish preferments collapsed or receded after that period of time. That is a visual sign that the poolish is ready to use.

Peter


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Offline megan45

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Re: Dough not rising at all
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2021, 03:00:04 PM »
  • The yeast I use is fast action dried yeast (pics attached).
The instructions for the yeast recommend a 1/2 hour rise. That, coupled with some of your other comments/observations, leads me to believe that it's the type of yeast that's not suitable for refrigerated dough or long slow rises.

[/quote]I just like it because it comes in little individual sachets which is quite convenient for keeping it fresh. I feared a big pot of yeast would die before I used it all.[/li][/list]

Dry yeast, whether Active or Instant, is remarkably long-lived (certainly much longer than the mfg's printed "use by/best before" date), especially if stored properly (in the freezer in a moisture-proof container.) I recently finished off a 1 Lb bag that had an expiration date of Nov 2014, which I purchased in 2004. If there was any degradation in its leavening ability compared to yeast from a just purchased freshly opened bag, it was all but undetectable.[/list]

Offline megan45

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Re: Dough not rising at all
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2021, 03:04:58 PM »
After my last post, I did a search to find Vito Iacopelli's YouTube video where he discussed making a poolish. I found the video and Vito did in fact put the poolish into the refrigerator right after making it. The part of the video where Vito covers this matter starts at about 1:58:



It depends on which video you're watching. At 4:30 in his he specifies one hour RT ferment before refrigerating.

Offline parallei

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Re: Dough not rising at all
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2021, 04:50:27 PM »
The instructions for the yeast recommend a 1/2 hour rise. That, coupled with some of your other comments/observations, leads me to believe that it's the type of yeast that's not suitable for refrigerated dough or long slow rises.

The bread recipe on the packet has about 0.6% IDY and is fermenting at room temp. If one where to cut the IDY back to 0.4% and ferment in the fridge, it would be just fine for 24 to 48 (maybe 72) hours. It is all about type of yeast, quantity of yeast, time and temp.

Offline HansB

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Re: Dough not rising at all
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2021, 08:34:25 PM »
Hans,

As a point of clarification, are you saying that the poolish does not have to undergo room temperature pre-fermentation and can be directly refrigerated without a period of pre-fermentation? I pretended that luckydutch's poolish was like a dough that is to be cold fermented for about 24 hours at around 39F but I could not come up with an amount of yeast (IDY) in any of Craig's tables that was anywhere close to what luckydutch used. But it is entirely possible that Craig's charts are not intended to handle a poolish with 100% hydration and no salt.

Peter

Any polish I have made is done with a small pinch of IDY, fermented at RT overnight(12 hours) then added to the dough mix. I don't take the poolish yeast amount into consideration for the final dough.
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Offline luckydutch

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Re: Dough not rising at all
« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2021, 05:59:13 AM »
Thanks everyone!

So if I am understanding correctly, I should use a tiny amount of yeast in my poolish, let it room ferment (at least for a while) before refrigerating and then I need to add the normal amount of yeast to the final dough to ensure my dough balls rise? I'll definitely give that a try. Might try a pot of normal dry yeast too rather than these fast acting sachets. Could have an impact.

I am curious as to how some of these youtube recipes get away with only using the poolish and no further rising agents, however. Particularly given how little yeast they add to the poolish. Here's another:



Tiny amount of yeast in the poolish, refrigerated overnight and then no more yeast.


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