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Author Topic: KA 00 pizza flour  (Read 1979 times)

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Offline gdepozsgay

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KA 00 pizza flour
« on: November 16, 2021, 12:29:35 PM »
This thing just hit the store for the first time that I've seen it. $6.99 for a 3 pound bag. Is it worth it? I ordered on line (blue) one time before but don't remember the price and I don't recall any notable difference in the pizza dough as compared to the KAAP.
George

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: KA 00 pizza flour
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2021, 04:13:11 PM »
In a word, no.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: KA 00 pizza flour
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2021, 04:14:24 PM »
In a few more words, charging $2.33/lb for flour is abusive and disrespectful of your customers.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline wotavidone

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Re: KA 00 pizza flour
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2021, 08:31:29 PM »
A new acquaintance recently put me on to a store in Adelaide South Australia where I can buy Caputo (i.e. the real deal) for about $1.50 Australian per pound.
I get Australian made 00 flour for about $1 Australian (about 75c US) per pound,  so that flour seems very expensive.
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Offline gdepozsgay

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Re: KA 00 pizza flour
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2021, 08:36:39 PM »
I agree that its exorbitant. Of course I did not bite.
George

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Offline HansB

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Re: KA 00 pizza flour
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2021, 08:51:03 PM »
That 3# (1,360g) bag is enough flour to make 8 275g (165g flour) dough balls. That's .88 cents per pizza. Add sauce and good cheese and you're under $4 for a good pizza. Sounds like a bargain compared to Una at $25!
Instagram @hans_michigan. The most important element of pizza is the dough. Pizza is bread after all. Bread with toppings. -Brian Spangler

Online Pizza_Not_War

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Re: KA 00 pizza flour
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2021, 09:02:52 PM »
I don't find that price to be outrageous. It's a convenient size for most casual bakers. Companies would go out of business selling small packages at bulk purchase cost per pound. I pay more than that for two pounds of Einkorn flour.

Offline gdepozsgay

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Re: KA 00 pizza flour
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2021, 09:12:40 PM »
Hmmm. Different way of looking at it for sure.
George

Offline SonVolt

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Re: KA 00 pizza flour
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2021, 09:46:34 AM »
A new acquaintance recently put me on to a store in Adelaide South Australia where I can buy Caputo (i.e. the real deal) for about $1.50 Australian per pound.
I get Australian made 00 flour for about $1 Australian (about 75c US) per pound,  so that flour seems very expensive.


What do you mean by "real deal" in this regard? I'm new to pizza making, but from many of the recent podcasts and websites I've been reading (including Modernist Pizza and Joy of Pizza) they don't recommend Caputo at all. They claim you'll get better results with domestic flours and that Caputo is a bit of a scam in marketing.

Offline scott r

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Re: KA 00 pizza flour
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2021, 10:00:20 AM »
I personally dont use caputo that much, but I recently bought a bag of pizzeria.  It made exceptional pizza for me.  The thing thats nice about it is that its not malted (which can be hard to find in many retail US grocery stores).    I also regularly use KAAP and love it as well.   There are times I want a little bit less browning than KAAP can provide and for those times caputo pizzeria is a good flour.   Are there other great American flours that are cheaper for the same quality...yes.   But these days caputo is the same price as say, central milling flours (actually caputo pizzeria is a little bit less for me at the wholesale level). 

One thing that is interesting to play with is caputo nuvolo super.  That flour is unlike other flours I have used, so it might be the product made by caputo that is worth seeking out if your looking for something different.

Otherwise... just stick with KAAP :)

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Offline SonVolt

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Re: KA 00 pizza flour
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2021, 10:12:38 AM »
I personally dont use caputo that much, but I recently bought a bag of pizzeria.  It made exceptional pizza for me.  The thing thats nice about it is that its not malted (which can be hard to find in many retail US grocery stores).    I also regularly use KAAP and love it as well.   There are times I want a little bit less browning than KAAP can provide and for those times caputo pizzeria is a good flour.   Are there other great American flours that are cheaper for the same quality...yes.   But these days caputo is the same price as say, central milling flours (actually caputo pizzeria is a little bit less for me at the wholesale level). 

One thing that is interesting to play with is caputo nuvolo super.  That flour is unlike other flours I have used, so it might be the product made by caputo that is worth seeking out if your looking for something different.

Otherwise... just stick with KAAP :)


Thanks for the info. Pardon my ignorance, but when/why would you want a flour with less browning? I've used Caputo Red at ~850F and felt the pizza's color was too pale and not browning enough. Is there intent behind that?

Offline HansB

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Re: KA 00 pizza flour
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2021, 10:27:38 AM »
I personally dont use caputo that much, but I recently bought a bag of pizzeria.  It made exceptional pizza for me.  The thing thats nice about it is that its not malted (which can be hard to find in many retail US grocery stores).    I also regularly use KAAP and love it as well.   There are times I want a little bit less browning than KAAP can provide and for those times caputo pizzeria is a good flour.   Are there other great American flours that are cheaper for the same quality...yes.   But these days caputo is the same price as say, central milling flours (actually caputo pizzeria is a little bit less for me at the wholesale level). 

One thing that is interesting to play with is caputo nuvolo super.  That flour is unlike other flours I have used, so it might be the product made by caputo that is worth seeking out if your looking for something different.

Otherwise... just stick with KAAP :)

^^^ I really like Caputo flours, the Nuvola Super at 50% with other flours makes for a nice crust for me.
Instagram @hans_michigan. The most important element of pizza is the dough. Pizza is bread after all. Bread with toppings. -Brian Spangler

Offline scott r

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Re: KA 00 pizza flour
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2021, 10:46:52 AM »
Thanks for the info. Pardon my ignorance, but when/why would you want a flour with less browning? I've used Caputo Red at ~850F and felt the pizza's color was too pale and not browning enough. Is there intent behind that?

Thats surprising.. 850 is very hot!   Most of the time a pizza that is too pale or not browning enough is that way because its either under fermented, over fermented, or a preferment or wild yeast is used that was not perfectly fermented. 

If I nail all of the proofing perameters, sometimes I find myself wanting to cook a product longer than I can.  If I cooked it as long as I would like to, for instance to bake more moisture out of it for a crispier or internally dryer product, it would be too dark or even possibly be burned on the outside before the middle is where I want it.  In those situations a non malted flour is better.   

Lately I have been running into this with my thicker sicilian/detroit/teglia style pizzas where I prefer a wet dough and a hot bake.   For these types of pizza I have switched to either 1/2 non malted, or using fully non malted flour so I can have more time to bake out moisture and get it crispier on the bottom, while still achieving a super open crumb that I can only get from a wetter dough.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2021, 10:49:53 AM by scott r »

Offline scott r

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Re: KA 00 pizza flour
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2021, 10:48:50 AM »
While mentioning nuvola super.... its one of the only non malted flours I have encountered that browns as much as a typical malted flour.  Its an interesting product for sure.

Offline RHawthorne

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Re: KA 00 pizza flour
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2021, 11:55:55 AM »
In a few more words, charging $2.33/lb for flour is abusive and disrespectful of your customers.
Plus, they can't even be bothered to tell their prospective customers what it's protein content is so they can make informed decisions about how to use it. And it's been rebranded, and they still won't say if there's anything new or different about it. The old "Italian Style 00 Flour" was stated to have a protein content of 8.5%(!). I tried it and hated it, as I imagine plenty of other people did. They won't say whether or not there's anything different about the 'new' stuff, which leads me to conclude that I will not bother with it, especially at the price. However, there appears to be no shortage of rave reviews on their site for the product, so I'd really like to know what others are doing with it. I've seen one video from KA 
that shows how they recommend using it and the dough they show in it doesn't look to me like any Neapolitan dough I've ever seen. Nor does the finished pizza.
 Also, their own stated end goal of a "a crispy, chewy crust" indicates to me that either they don't understand what Neapolitan crust is really supposed to be like, or they're using some rather deceptive sales speak to sell a flour that doesn't really deliver the kind of end product it's supposed to. I mean, I can understand if they're thinking that most of their customers will be using a home oven that maxes out at 550 degrees, and that they might need to tailor their product (and/or description thereof) to that application, but if they were really being honest, they would clearly state that, if it really is like an Italian "00" flour, nobody is going to get anything like a real Neapolitan crust with it unless they're using a wood burning oven at far higher temps. The way they describe the desired end goal, it sounds like they're describing NY style pizza crust, not Neapolitan. Just sayin'.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2021, 12:03:30 PM by RHawthorne »
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Offline RHawthorne

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Re: KA 00 pizza flour
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2021, 12:01:39 PM »
While mentioning nuvola super.... its one of the only non malted flours I have encountered that browns as much as a typical malted flour.  Its an interesting product for sure.
That has become one of my favorite flours over time. I like it better than any "00" type flour I've used. I wish it wasn't as expensive as it is.
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Offline Gene in Acadiana

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Re: KA 00 pizza flour
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2021, 01:12:32 PM »
I mean, I can understand if they're thinking that most of their customers will be using a home oven that maxes out at 550 degrees, and that they might need to tailor their product (and/or description thereof) to that application, but if they were really being honest, they would clearly state that, if it really is like an Italian "00" flour, nobody is going to get anything like a real Neapolitan crust with it unless they're using a wood burning oven at far higher temps. The way they describe the desired end goal, it sounds like they're describing NY style pizza crust, not Neapolitan. Just sayin'.

I'm sure they are deliberately trying to cash in on the myth that 00 is some type of magical flour that will improve any type of pizza no matter what kind of oven they are using. And they priced it accordingly. 

Offline apizza

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Re: KA 00 pizza flour
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2021, 02:16:48 PM »
If it's any help this is from their commercial page.

Type 00 Flour
11% Protein | .54% Ash

This silky smooth flour is made from select US wheats. It provides the strength and extensibility required for pizza dough that yields authentic Neapolitan pizza crusts. Optimized for baking at high temperatures to produce the perfect blend of crispness and chew, with the puffy, leopard-spotted cornicione that enthusiasts expect.

50lb. #205105
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: KA 00 pizza flour
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2021, 05:31:46 PM »
Plus, they can't even be bothered to tell their prospective customers what it's protein content is so they can make informed decisions about how to use it.
Randy,

You are right about KA not revealing the actual amount of protein in their 00 clone flour. However, if you look at the following KA pdf document, you will see that the stated amount of protein for their 00 clone flour is 2 grams per 30 gram serving size. But because of rounding (to the nearest half gram for amounts under 5 grams and to the nearest whole gram for amounts greater than 5 grams, under FDA rules), we can't get to the actual amount of protein from the Nutrition Facts. For example, if the protein amount is actually 2.2 grams and the serving size is actually 29.6 grams, that would make the percent protein equal to 2.2/29.6 = 7.46%.

https://shop.kingarthurbaking.com/content/packaging/100190.pdf

Many years ago, back in the 2004-2006 timeframe, I tried the KA 00 flour and thought that it was the worst flour I had ever used. I even went so far as to tell KA that it was one of my worst flours. The only response I got was that it was a low protein flour. As noted in the following post, I thought that the protein content was around 7.5%, which would be about the same as I calculated above:

Reply 3 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=13654.msg136630;topicseen#msg136630

At other times, the protein number I saw was around 8.5%.

In the above-referenced time frame, there were very few authentic Italian 00 flours used in the U.S. and I viewed KA's 00 flour as simply a poor imitation of the real 00 flours. And when members would ask me about the KA 00 flour, I would tell them that it was not a good flour, and why I thought so (see, for example, Reply 5 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2172.msg20653.html#msg20653), and not to use it. If it so happened that they had that flour on hand, I advised them to blend it with a flour such as a high gluten flour until they used up all of the KA 00 flour. One member actually did that and came up with very good results.

I might add that PMQ wrote an article that mentioned the KA 00 flour, as follows:

Domestic versions are usually called Italian-style. You can also find an Italian 00 version made by King Arthur Flour Company. This particular version has a protein level of 8.5%, which is quite a bit lower than imported Italian 00 flour. Due to the difference in protein level, the way this flour performs in making dough may vary from the way the imported 00 flours perform.

These days, there are many domestic millers or sellers of 00 clone flours that appear to be of high quality. These include:

General Mills: https://www.generalmillscf.com/products/category/flour/hard-winter-wheat/gold-medal-neapolitan-50lb,

Ardent Mills: https://www.ardentmills.com/products/world-flours/neapolitan-00-style-pizza-flour/,

Central Milling: https://centralmilling.com/product/type-00-pizza-flour-organic-type-00-normal/ and https://centralmilling.com/product/organic-type-00-reinforced/, and

Grain Craft: https://www.graincraft.com/products/neapolitan-italian-style-pizzeria-flour/

There may well be other sources not specifically revealed in the flour thread I put together at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=40212.0

Peter


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: KA 00 pizza flour
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2021, 05:36:06 PM »

Thanks for the info. Pardon my ignorance, but when/why would you want a flour with less browning? I've used Caputo Red at ~850F and felt the pizza's color was too pale and not browning enough. Is there intent behind that?

What sort of oven, and how did you measure the temperature?
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

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