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Author Topic: Oil within dough  (Read 388 times)

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Offline PizzaSnob

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Oil within dough
« on: May 18, 2022, 09:38:05 AM »
Hi all, I know this has been discussed but I wanted fresh takes on this subject. I notice a lot of Neapolitan recipes skip the oil within the dough. Would oil somehow crust or harden the dough? Would it affect the crust rise? I am using a hybrid of 00 flour for my dough.

Offline scott r

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Re: Oil within dough
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2022, 10:00:34 AM »
It makes the crust softer.  With the high speed bakes of Neapolitan pizzas a softer crust is not always desirable. Fast baked pizza can sometimes get too floppy and even form a gum layer of uncooked dough if oil is used.   In slower baked pizzas it can do a good thing, especially in underpowered home ovens, and for certain styles it can give a specific texture (im thinking thick crust styles often baked in pans, American, and bar pizza styles) but its also nice in NY style pizza with certain ovens and flours.

Offline PizzaSnob

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Re: Oil within dough
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2022, 10:06:44 AM »
Thanks Scott, sorry if this sounds like a stupid question but when you say makes the crust softer, do you mean externally or internally?
It makes the crust softer.  With the high speed bakes of Neapolitan pizzas a softer crust is not always desirable. Fast baked pizza can sometimes get too floppy and even form a gum layer of uncooked dough if oil is used.   In slower baked pizzas it can do a good thing, especially in underpowered home ovens, and for certain styles it can give a specific texture (im thinking thick crust styles often baked in pans, American, and bar pizza styles) but its also nice in NY style pizza with certain ovens and flours.

Offline scott r

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Re: Oil within dough
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2022, 10:17:01 AM »
Both.   I have seen posts here where people say that it can make a pizza crispier, but I have not noticed that, and in fact have found that for me it removes some external crispness AND makes the internal crumb softer/more tender.  There seem to be people on both sides of the coin for some reason.  It basically helps the pizza to retain water, so maybe at first the pizza will be a bit crispier, but as it sits for a minute or two the extra internal water softens that external crisp.

Offline PizzaSnob

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Re: Oil within dough
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2022, 10:19:57 AM »
Great answer. Thank you for taking your time to give me some ideas to work with.

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Offline RHawthorne

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Re: Oil within dough
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2022, 12:18:40 PM »
Oil is not allowed at all in Neapolitan pizza dough per AVPN standards. That's why you don't see it. Depending on the kind of pizza you're shooting for and what your baking scenario is, it could do something beneficial for your dough or not. Some of us, like myself, rarely if ever use it at all, except in a pan when doing thicker styles of pizza. It's used quite often in NY style pizza dough at a rate of 2% to 5%, mainly to control the rate at which the water in the dough is released during the bake.
  In my opinion, it's most practical use is in high volume pizzerias where maximum efficiency is desired, from the standpoint of both maximum dough volume and fastest bake time. If you want to get the most bang for the buck with your dough, you use as much water as possible to create maximum volume per batch, bake at the highest temp that's practical for staff to keep up with, and target the oil content so that just enough water is released in the bake without risk of burning the crust, and pull the pies out at just the right time. The risk is that oil itself can also burn if enough of it is used in the dough (especially if the pies are baking directly on the oven floor), and the bake temp is especially high, and that can create issues on the oven floor. For home bakers, I don't really recommend using it until you've run enough recipes without it to determine that you might need it. That's my take on it.
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Offline SonVolt

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Re: Oil within dough
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2022, 03:51:07 PM »
Does oil make the dough easier to work with, stretch etc?

Offline RHawthorne

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Re: Oil within dough
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2022, 08:31:46 PM »
Does oil make the dough easier to work with, stretch etc?
I can't say that it really has for me. For me, it's all about hitting the right hydration rate and getting the dough to just the right temp so that it's neither tight and brittle nor slack and sticky, with a good amount of air inside.
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Offline scott r

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Re: Oil within dough
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2022, 09:00:19 PM »
Does oil make the dough easier to work with, stretch etc?

yes, it makes the dough extensible and easier to stretch. It does something more than just upping the hydration would (for the feel).  I have played with it on and off in my recipe at work lately and when its in there my guys really like the feel of the dough and they can tell me when its there or not. Im still not 100% on if I prefer what it does to the end product, but its definitely noticeable on the stretch.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2022, 09:05:29 PM by scott r »

Offline PizzaSnob

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Re: Oil within dough
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2022, 09:10:05 PM »
Would oil effect the puffiness the cornichon?
yes, it makes the dough extensible and easier to stretch. It does something more than just upping the hydration would (for the feel).  I have played with it on and off in my recipe at work lately and when its in there my guys really like the feel of the dough and they can tell me when its there or not. Im still not 100% on if I prefer what it does to the end product, but its definitely noticeable on the stretch.

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Offline scott r

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Re: Oil within dough
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2022, 09:21:01 PM »
No.  thats is more of a function of how strong your dough is at the time of baking and hydration.   Many things factor into the strength... flour type, how developed the gluten matrix is, how far into fermentation the dough is, etc.   Wetter doughs have the ability to puff up more as long as proper development has been made.

Offline Essen1

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Re: Oil within dough
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2022, 10:36:51 PM »
No.  thats is more of a function of how strong your dough is at the time of baking and hydration.   Many things factor into the strength... flour type, how developed the gluten matrix is, how far into fermentation the dough is, etc.   Wetter doughs have the ability to puff up more as long as proper development has been made.

DITTO.

i use two flours at 68% hydration and only 0.5% of avocado oil, mainly to keep the internal structure soft to a degree, prevent dry-outs for people who like to reheat their pies the next day and the additional mouthfeel.

Crusts are still crunchy the next morning, after spending the night in the box and reheat actually very well.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2022, 11:05:16 PM by Essen1 »
Mike

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Offline Swinger-mike

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Re: Oil within dough
« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2022, 08:22:53 AM »
lard does great things in neapolitan dough. wont be making any neapolitan pizza without it again.

I am using duck or goose fat.

Offline RHawthorne

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Re: Oil within dough
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2022, 11:24:05 AM »
lard does great things in neapolitan dough. wont be making any neapolitan pizza without it again.

I am using duck or goose fat.
That's very interesting. Somebody else posted a pie a few weeks back that was Neapolitan-ish (not sure if they were actually going full-on in that direction) and some lard in it, but theirs looked to me like it had some issues; like maybe they were using a little too much of it. What do you think it does for your crust, and how much do you use?
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Offline Swinger-mike

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Re: Oil within dough
« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2022, 12:25:15 PM »
That's very interesting. Somebody else posted a pie a few weeks back that was Neapolitan-ish (not sure if they were actually going full-on in that direction) and some lard in it, but theirs looked to me like it had some issues; like maybe they were using a little too much of it. What do you think it does for your crust, and how much do you use?

I use 3%, I also cold ferment and use a low hydration at 60%, I feel like lard doesnt interfier as much with the structure of the dough as oil would since it stays rather solid especially when cold, I mix very little and try to poinpoint my dough mostly by biochemical gluten developement.

When baking it gives me a little more ovenspirng, lard melts during the bake coating the glutenstructure and trapping more steam just as all fats do, but I do get a little bit crisper outside, obviously a more tender crust and better mouth feel, at least for my likings, also the pizzas also dont get gummy when they sit for a bit.

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26286.msg699859#msg699859

Those were made with lard.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2022, 02:44:57 PM by Swinger-mike »

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