Pizza Making Forum

Pizza Making => American Style => Topic started by: Pete-zza on August 07, 2005, 08:53:55 PM

Title: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: Pete-zza on August 07, 2005, 08:53:55 PM
Recently, I have been experimenting with making “thin” versions of Randy’s American style pizza. The reason I have been doing this is because Randy’s basic recipe makes more dough than I am able to conveniently use. By my estimation, the recipe makes a bit over 28 ounces of dough, enough for a hefty 16-inch pizza or two 12-inch pizzas (Randy’s recommendations). I have also calculated that the thickness factor for the 16-inch is around 0.14; for the 12-inch, it is 0.126. What I was interested in was a 14-inch pizza with a thickness factor of around 0.105-0.11, which is more like a NY style crust thickness (but somewhat thicker).

In order to determine how much of each ingredient in Randy’s recipe I would need to make the “thinner” 14-in pizza, I first had to convert Randy’s recipe to baker’s percents. The recipe I used for this purpose is one that Randy had posted elsewhere on the forum, but essentially as reproduced below. Using the weight measurements provided by Randy, and using measurement data taken from the labels on bottles of honey, packages of raw sugar, from the Classico olive oil bottle, and from a box of salt, I came up with the following formulation, including baker’s percents:

Randy’s American Style Pizza Dough Recipe
100%, High-gluten flour, 16 oz. (1 lb.)
60%, Water (120 degrees F), 9.6 oz. (about 1 1/4 c.)
5.3%, Raw sugar, 0.85 oz. (2 T.)
4.5%, Honey (clover or orange), 0.74 oz. (1 T.)
2.8%, Classico olive oil, 0.45 oz. (1 T.)
3.3%, Salt, 0.53 oz. (2 t.)
1.6%, SAF Perfect Rise or Gourmet yeast, 0.25 oz.
Finished dough weight = 28.42 oz.
Thickness factor (16-inch) = 0.141
Thickness factor (12-inch) = 0.126

Unless I made errors in the calculations, the baker’s percents as recited above can now be used to make any size or thickness of Randy’s American style pizza. For the 14-inch pizza, the formulation I ended up with was as follows:

14-inch Version of Randy’s American Style Pizza Dough Recipe
100%, High-gluten flour (KASL), 9.54 oz. (2 c. plus 3 T. plus 1/2 t.)
60%, Water (120 degrees F), 5.72 oz. (between 2/3 and 3/4 c.)
5.3%, Raw sugar, 0.51 oz. (a bit over 3 1/2 t.)
4.5%, Honey (clover or orange), 0.43 oz. (1 3/4 t.)
2.8%, Classico olive oil, 0.27 oz. (1 3/4 t.)
3.3%, Salt, 0.32 oz. (a bit less than 1 1/4 t.)
1.6%, SAF Perfect Rise or Gourmet yeast, 0.15 oz. (about 1 1/2 t.)
Finished dough weight = 16.93 oz.
Thickness factor = 0.11

In making the dough, I tried to follow Randy’s instructions as closely as possible (Edit: See instructions in Reply 5 below). Apart from the different pizza size and dough thickness, about the only change I made to Randy’s recipe and instructions was to knead the dough for about 6 minutes. I did this since my dough ball size (16.93 oz.) was quite a bit less than Randy’s dough ball size (around 28 oz.) The dough was a dream to make. The ingredient amounts were just about exact and I found almost no need to add either more flour or water. The dough was smooth and supple. After I finished making the dough, I rounded it into a ball, brushed it with a little olive oil, placed it into a covered metal container, and then into the refrigerator. During the time that the dough was in the refrigerator, it rose quite a bit—almost to the point of wanting to push the cover off of the container. I expected this since Randy’s recipe calls for a lot of yeast (many multiples of what I normally use) and the water used was at 120 degrees F, also higher than I normally use for a retarded dough (the finished dough temperature off of the hook was around 90 degrees F).

I took the dough out of the refrigerator about 48 hours later and set it aside, covered with a sheet of plastic wrap, for about 3 hours, as also recommended by Randy in his instructions. The dough was extremely easy to stretch and shape into a 14 inch skin. It was balanced in terms of both extensibility and elasticity. I used a 14-inch screen (no stone). For the sauce, I used Randy’s Penzeys/6-in-1 sauce as set forth at Reply #4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,663.msg6019.html#msg6019. I even tried to dress the pizza in the manner preferred by Randy, including using hot sausage (with added dried red peppers in my case since I don’t have access to the Tennessee brand of sausage Randy favors), pepperoni, and pineapple (I used both fresh and canned). The pizza was baked on the screen on the lowest oven rack position for about 8 minutes at around 500 degrees F. I even followed the tip recently made by Randy to wait until the oven light comes back on (indicating that the heating element was heating up again) before putting the pizza into the oven. One of the advantages of using Randy’s recipe this time of year is that by using the screen there is no need to heat the oven and a pizza stone for about an hour. I turned on the oven to preheat it as I was shaping and dressing the pizza. By the time I was done dressing the pizza, the oven was ready.

The photos below show the finished product. I have nothing but praise for Randy’s recipe. The pizza was first rate in every way, from beginning to end. I will caution readers, however, that I liked the combination of all the items on the pizza, including the Penzeys/6-in-1 sauce, hot sausage, pepperoni and pineapple. It’s hard for me to imagine that others wouldn’t like the combination, but I appreciate the concept of personal taste. I thought the sauce and toppings were very complementary and harmonious, with pleasing contrasts of sweetness, saltiness, heat and spice. Surprisingly, the dough itself did not strike me as sweet, given the large amounts of sugar and honey used (a total of 9.8% by baker’s percent) and my personal sensitivity to sweetness (which I tend to avoid in pizza doughs). However, it is possible that the sweetness of the dough was masked by all the other flavors. The crust was a nice brown color, and the crumb was soft and tender. Overall, I think the pizza, at least to the extent I downsized it, was one of the best I have tried. I commend it to others looking for a nice departure from the many other pizza styles popularized on this forum.

Peter
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: Randy on August 08, 2005, 12:10:50 PM
Thank you for your kind words Peter.  The pizza looks great.  With the 16 oz flour version I have been making a 16" pizza as you noted and it is thicker than a New Yorker.  We usually freeze half of it. for our lunch another day.  When reheated it is very crisp.
Again thanks so much for the good review.

Randy
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: Pete-zza on August 23, 2005, 02:57:59 PM
Yesterday, I made my latest “thin” version of Randy’s American pie. The recipe and instructions I followed were essentially the same as the last one except that (1) I reduced the amounts of yeast, sugar, honey and salt by half, (2) I increased the hydration level a bit (to around 61.5%), and (3) I introduced a 5-minute rest period in the middle of the kneading sequence. The last two changes were made to reflect changes that Randy recommended in a recent post. The revised recipe I used is as follows (including the revised baker’s percents):

Revised 14-inch “Thin” Version of Randy’s American Style Pizza Dough
100%, High-gluten flour (KASL), 9.86 oz. (2 c. plus 4 T. plus 1 t.)
61.5%, Water (120 degrees F), 6.06 oz. (a bit over 3/4 c.)
2.65%, Raw sugar, 0.26 oz. (a bit over 1 7/8 t.)
2.25%, Honey (clover or orange), 0.22 oz. (a bit over 7/8 t.)
2.8%, Classico olive oil, 0.28 oz. (1 3/4 t.)
1.65%, Salt, 0.163 oz. (a bit over 3/4 t.)
0.8%, SAF Perfect Rise or Gourmet yeast, 0.08 oz. (3/4 t.)
Finished dough weight = 16.95 oz.
Thickness factor = 0.11
Finished dough temperature = 88 degrees F.

There was little difference in the dough made using the above recipe except that it seemed lighter, both in texture and in color. I believe the reduced coloration can be explained by the reduced amount of honey I used. Whether the lighter dough texture was due to the changes in quantities of the yeast, sugar, honey and salt or due to the introduction of the 5-minute rest period in the middle of the kneading process is difficult to say. I will have to repeat the experiment sometime without the rest period to divine the answer to that question. The dough also rose quickly in its container during refrigeration, even though the amount of yeast had been cut in half. I attribute the fast rise mainly to the warm water (above 120 degrees F) that I used. The dough pushed up against the lid for the container and stayed that way for the roughly two days I left the dough in the refrigerator. Toward the end of the period of refrigeration (after about 50 hours), the dough started to recede in its container and to shrink by about 20 percent. I decided at that point to shape the dough and make the pizza.

The dough handled pretty much as the prior doughs I have made using Randy’s basic recipe and variations. The dough was easy to handle and stretch out to 14 inches, the size of the pizza screen. I dressed the pizza in the same fashion as my prior American pizzas, and baked it in the same manner as before (on the lowermost oven rack of a 500-degree F preheated oven), for a total of about 8 minutes. One of the things I really like about Randy’s recipe is that the pizza can be ready about 15 minutes after the oven has been turned on. With outdoor temperatures hovering around 100 degrees F recently in these parts, that’s a blessing.

The photos below show the finished product. As will be noted by comparing these photos with the last pair of photos, it would be hard to tell a difference between the two pizzas. However, the most recent pizza seemed to have a lighter crumb, both in terms of color and texture. Tastewise, the two pizzas seemed pretty much the same. The next time I make this pizza, I am inclined to reduce the dough thickness a bit more (to what I believe Randy has referred to before as an “American New York style”). I might even increase the amount of honey a bit. I like the color that it produces in the crust and crumb.

Peter
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: Randy on August 23, 2005, 02:59:30 PM
Made me hungry.  Great looking pizza Peter. Got a DKM thin crust going for this week.  American style next week.

Randy
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: pam on August 23, 2005, 08:24:57 PM
In order to determine how much of each ingredient in Randy’s recipe I would need to make the “thinner” 14-in pizza, I first had to convert Randy’s recipe to baker’s percents. The recipe I used for this purpose is the one set forth at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1141.0.html.

Every time I click the link, I get the error message, "The topic or board you are looking for appears to be either missing or off limits to you." ??? Would someone repost the instructions? Thanks.
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: Pete-zza on August 24, 2005, 01:47:10 PM
Indeed, the link does not appear to be working, and I will edit my prior post to avoid confusion. However, in another thread Randy posted a version of his American pie recipe along with the following instructions, which I have cut and pasted below (in italics) as follows:

Mix flour sugar and salt. Put yeast and half the flour mixture in the mixer. Mix the honey and oil into the very warm water. Pour mixture into bowl and place mixer using dough hook on stir for about 2 minutes. Stop mixer. Add the rest of the flour, then set mixer to stir until the dough pulls from the sides of the bowl then stop mixer for 5 minutes. After the 5 minutes, go to speed 2 for 12 minutes. On a lightly floured surface shape into a ball.  Place in the refrigerator in a lightly sealed container coated with olive oil overnight or up to three days.

Remove 3  hours before panning
Remove from the fridge and flatten then fold, then shape into a ball using wet hands.

When I followed Randy's instructions, I used a shorter knead time because of the smaller amount of dough I was making. Also, I didn't flatten and fold the dough after it came out of the refrigerator. I just flattened the dough, covered it loosely with a piece of plastic wrap, and let it set at room temperature for about 2 hours or so. I worked the dough into a skin in a mixture of flour, cornmeal and semolina, as Randy has recommended elsewhere to create a marbling kind of effect.

Peter
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: Rene on August 28, 2005, 07:49:00 AM
Wow nice looking crust!!.. I hope to get mine exactly like that, prefect holes, little chew

you are an inspiritation to a newbie in the pizza craft :-)))
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: Pete-zza on August 28, 2005, 09:48:52 AM
Rene,

It's Randy's basic recipe and instructions that should get all the credit. All I do is what Randy says to do. It's a pretty foolproof recipe, even when it is modified, as I have been doing on this thread to satisfy my intellectual curiosity (and to provide food for nourishment  :)).

Peter
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: Pete-zza on August 29, 2005, 12:37:41 PM
My most recent experiment with Randy’s basic American style dough recipe has been to make a 16-inch, thin NY style pizza—basically a cross between Randy’s American style and a NY style. The thickness factor I chose, 0.10, was essentially that used for a thin NY style dough. I also decided to reduce the amount of yeast even further than my most recent experiments, and also to temperature adjust the water used to achieve a finished dough temperature of about 80 degrees F. These latter steps were taken so that the dough would not rise as fast and as much as in my past experiments. In those experiments, the dough pushed up against the cover of my container and, but for the container, would have spread all over the place (as I imagined it would do if it were in a commercial proofing box as is used at places like Papa John’s).

For the most recent experiment, I also used ordinary sugar instead of raw sugar, ordinary table salt, and ordinary vegetable oil instead of light olive oil, as might be done, for example, at a place like Papa John’s. Although Papa John’s dough does not use honey, I left it in because I like it. I also believe it is a core element of Randy’s recipe and responsible in part for the high quality of the dough, its superior handling qualities, and contribution to a nicely browned crust and light, yet chewy, crumb. The formulation I used for the most recent experiment was as follows (with baker’s percents):

16-Inch NY Version of Randy’s American Style Pizza Dough
100%, High-gluten flour (KASL), 11.73 oz. (2 1/2 c. plus 2 T. plus 2 t.)
61.5%, Water (at 72 degrees F), 7.21 oz. (between 7/8 and 1 c.)
2.0%, Sugar (ordinary table sugar), 0.24 oz. (a bit over 1 5/8 t.)
3%, Honey, 0.35 oz. (a bit less than 1 1/2 t.)
2.8%, Vegetable oil, 0.33 oz. (2 t.)
1.65%, Salt (ordinary table salt), 0.19 oz. (a bit less than 1 t.)
0.40%, IDY (SAF Red), 0.05 oz. (between 3/8 and 1/2 t.)
Thickness factor (TF) = 0.10
Finished dough weight = 19.85 oz.
Finished dough temperature = 83 degrees F

The procedures I used to make the dough were essentially the same as those recommended by Randy except that this time I combined all of the dry ingredients in a bowl, except for the sugar, which was combined with the honey in the water (at 72 degrees F). About half of the flour/salt/IDY mixture was put in the mixer bowl along with most of the sugar/honey/water mixture. These were combined for about 3-4 minutes at stir speed as the remaining flour/salt/IDY mixture was gradually added to the ingredients in the bowl. The oil was then added and kneaded in for about a minute, and the entire dough mixture was kneaded at speed 2 for about another 6 minutes. I used no rest periods, either during the kneading process or thereafter.

The dough formed very easily and nicely, with no need to make even minor adjustment to flour and/or water in the bowl. The dough was very soft and supple. After about a minute of final hand kneading, the dough was lightly covered with vegetable oil, and placed in a covered container and into the refrigerator. The dough remained in the refrigerator for about 48 hours, following which I brought it to room temperature, covered it lightly with a sheet of plastic wrap, and let it set for about 2 1/2  hours in preparation for forming and shaping it into a 16-inch skin. As I anticipated, during the first 24 hours in the refrigerator, the dough ball hardly rose at all, most likely because of the cooler water used to make the dough and the reduced amount of IDY. During the next 24 hours, the dough spread a bit to fill the container laterally and rose by about 30-40%. The dough reminded me in many respects of the NY style doughs I have made in the past.

The dough shaped very easily. It was a bit extensible (stretchy) but I had no difficulty whatever forming it into a 16-inch skin. The finished skin was placed on a 16-inch pizza screen, dressed in a basic pepperoni/sausage style with the same 6-in-1 sauce as used in my past experiments, and baked on the lowest oven rack position in a preheated 500-550 degree F oven. It took about 9-10 minutes to bake.

The photos below show the finished product. Everything about the finished pizza was excellent—the texture of the crust and crumb, the color of the crust, and the taste. The tips of slices even drooped like a NY style slice. The rim of the crust was not as high as my past experiments, but seemed consistent with the 0.10 thickness factor I used. The crust was also a bit sweeter than the last crusts I made, but it wasn’t bothersome in any way. I suspect had I used pineapple on the pizza, as I have done in all my prior experiments with Randy’s recipe, I wouldn’t have detected the sweetness in the crust as much.

I believe the overall good results I achieved with the pizza--and the earlier pizzas as well--is a testament to the exceptional recipe that Randy has come up with. It is solid, durable, adaptable, and virtually idiot-proof. You almost have to work hard to hurt it.

My next experiment may be to use all-purpose flour, as I suspect may be done at Papa John’s (I don't know for sure), but keeping the ratios of ingredients (baker’s percents) more or less intact.

Peter
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: Randy on August 29, 2005, 04:37:39 PM
Papa John's only uses high gluten flour.
From Papa John's:
Dough Facts:·
   
We use Hard Red Spring Wheat flour to make Papa John's traditional dough. This high-protein flour gives our crust a consistently hearty texture in each bite. ·   

Each of our regional quality control centers is equipped with special water filtration and ozonation systems. These systems allow us to make our traditional dough with consistently high-quality clear-filtered water. ·   

Our original crust dough is shipped fresh (never frozen) to our restaurants, allowing it to proof slowly and naturally. We believe that a full-flavored crust comes from dough which has been given the proper time to work its natural magic.
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: Pete-zza on August 29, 2005, 07:24:14 PM
Randy,

I wonder whether Papa John's may have changed its flour. When I went to the PJ website today, I saw the following statement, which is identical to the one you posted except for the first paragraph pertaining to its pizza flour:

We use a proprietary flour to make Papa John's traditional dough. This high-protein flour gives our crust a consistently hearty flavor and texture in each bite.

Each of our regional quality control centers is equipped with special water filtration and ozonation systems. These systems allow us to make our traditional dough with consistently high-quality clear-filtered water.

Our original crust dough is shipped fresh (never frozen) to our restaurants, allowing it to proof slowly and naturally. We believe that a full-flavored crust comes from dough which has been given the proper time to work its natural magic.

When I checked out the King Arthur website today, I saw that just about all of its flours from all-purpose up to high-gluten are deemed "high protein". The KA all-purpose flour is made from hard red winter wheat, which suggests about 10-12% protein, whereas its KASL is made from hard red spring wheat, which suggests about 12-14% protein (but we know the KASL has around 14% protein). KA also has a bread flour for machines that is made from hard red spring wheat, and it has other flours that are made from both hard red spring and winter wheat. As best I can tell, neither the KA website, their catalog, or the packaging information on their regular bread flour indicates what kind(s) of wheat are used for the regular bread flour. However, all of KA the flours mentioned above would fall within the "high protein" category referenced in the above PJ statement.

Even if PJ has changed its flour to a lower protein flour, I tend to agree with you that high-gluten flour is the best choice for the American style recipe. It would still be nice to know, however, what they are now using for their flour.

Peter
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: giotto on October 02, 2005, 03:38:37 PM
I would not confuse what Papa John's says with high gluten flour as we know it.  Hard Red Spring flour does not necessitate flour labelled as High Gluten.  In fact, you will find similar words on Bob's Red Mill Unbleached White flour, which reads: Milled from extra high protein high gluten US Number 1 dark northern hard red spring wheat... . While their flour is higher than most ALL Purpose, it is still in the range of an ALL Purpose.  The same is true with King Arthur, who brags of using the same wheat.  And indeed, their stuff is 1% higher than most All Purpose and Bread flours; but they are still 11.7% and 12.7% accordingly. 

I find many pizzerias that use an ALL Purpose or Bread flour because of their preference with taste.  Amici's, for example, uses a high protein ALL Purpose, and their Mountain View fired oven produces excellent pizza.  And of course, many of the bread companies do the same around the San Francisco area for their sweet french baquettes, which are very good in taste. 
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: giotto on October 02, 2005, 04:09:48 PM
Pete-zza:

I'm not at all surprised with your successes. Getting ingredients properly mixed can be a real problem with standard mixers.  That was one of the first pieces of advice I was given from a professional as his Hobart thoroughly mixed in the ingredients... Even with pros, things can be stepped along.  But it is well worth much experimentation and variations, as you are finding here.  One thing I find extremely upsetting about the Kitchen Aid mixer is that it can really suck when it comes to splitting out the wrong ingredients at the wrong time. 

You'll remember your reference a long time ago with your ZO bread machine when I mentioned that active yeast can be added dry, as seen in bread machines.  Sure enough, you're ZO instructions recommended adding active yeast as a dry ingredient.  I have found success though when adding sugar and salt to the water, while leaving the active yeast mixed in the flour.

In our normal ovens, I find that added sugar is a great way to get excellent color, along with a bit drier effect caused by the effect of heat to the additional cooking of dough when included.  As you remember with my earlier posts in NY Techniques, I used to get incredible color with under 2 tsp.  The makeup of the flour can play a factor as well (e.g., malted barley in flour vs the lack of conditioners in KA).  Honey is what Wolfgang Puch and others suggest, and I believe it helps the taste and texture of various flours, esp high gluten, with its hydroscopic and jelly-like nature. 

Your percentages of water (60%) to flour is what I generally used in the NY Techniques section (keeping in mind that I use oil as my additional percentage). Oil at 2.8% seems plenty for the softening effect.  Again, this is relevant to the level of protein.  Of course, with lower protein flours, the amount of oil becomes less relevant. 

Remember when we talked about all things not being equal when flour starts to be raised from the amounts that pros use vs. what we use? Sometimes % don't seem to work on equal bounds, esp with yeast, when we decrease from 50 lbs to 2 lbs... I know from my own experimentation that when I go upward, I need to modify percentages.  It seems that more spring is given sometimes with a bit more usage of yeast.  Sometimes people split their water 50/50 between cold and real warm just to maintain the fermentation before placing it in the refrigerator.  But I believe it comes at a cost when trying to get everything mixed properly.

As you know, my outcome is usually about 16+ oz for a 14" or so dough, and that still makes a thin result when creating a good cornicione. I often work with a screen.  But I have to move it around the oven.  If I were to place it at the bottom of my oven for 8 minutes at 500F, it would be burnt crumb.

Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: Pete-zza on October 02, 2005, 05:46:14 PM
giotto,

I have had a lot of fun playing around with Randy's recipe. At the same time, it has confounded me more than any recipe that I can recall. I think it is because I am not accustomed to using the levels of salt, sugar (including the honey) and yeast called for in Randy's recipe. And I am not accustomed to using high water temperatures, even though they are consistent with what the yeast producers recommend. Yet the combination works, even in my simple and basic KitchenAid mixer. I also think that the honey helps the texture and feel of the dough. I modified the recipe in different ways, yet the basic integrity of the dough seemed to remain intact through all the modifications. That's a tribute to the recipe.

On the matter of the yeast, most people tend to believe that the only dry yeast that can be added to flour and other dry ingredients is instant dry yeast (IDY). Yet, as you have pointed out on many occasions, and as even the yeast producers acknowledge (although somewhat quietly), at least a part of the active dry yeast can also be added to the dry ingredients. Unless a recipe specifies otherwise (as with the SAF active dry yeast Randy's recipe calls for), I personally proof the active dry yeast in a small amount of warm water and then combine it with the rest of the water. My recollection is that when you add the active dry yeast to the bowl it is toward the end of the mixing process so that the fermentation is delayed. Is that correct, and are you still using that approach?   

You discussed spring versus winter wheat in your earlier post. I don't know the answer to this question, but is it safe to say that while not all hard red spring wheat may end up as high-gluten flour all high-gluten flour (such as the KASL) comes from hard red spring wheat? I'm guessing that Papa John's uses something less than high-gluten flour--perhaps a bread flour blend--because a pizza crust based on high-gluten flour tends not to hold up as well for home delivery. It may even be an all-purpose flour that PJ uses, which is the flour I plan to use when I make my next pizza based on Randy's recipe.

Peter
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: giotto on October 02, 2005, 06:41:59 PM
Look mom, no screen!  I have found that the oven bottom prevents over exposure of toppings when 5+ minutes is needed. I do like to move it around a bit and enjoy the flexibility of the screen. 

Back in 2004, this pizza spent time at the bottom of the oven.  The dough weighed around 16 oz in weight for a 14" pizza. Sugar was included. More here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,524.msg5514.html#msg5514

(https://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/in-oven.JPG)

Sometimes I proof the yeast, and sometimes I do not.  When I don't proof it, I work with warmer water.  It's just too risky to get the yeast in with the KA mixer at later stages, so I do it early on.  With tins, the fermentation delay starts pretty quick.

I'm happy for this thread because its timing is in synch with my desire over this past week to lower the temps to what I used a long time ago. 

I call this my 2-2-3-4 pizza, which I cooked just over 500F... Sauteed red onions and spinach (2), genoa salami and pepperoni (2), home-grown herbs (3) and a grilled onion mixed in with a cheddar cheese, grande mozzarella and pecorino (4):
(https://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/2-2-3-3.JPG)
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: elsegundo on October 05, 2005, 11:40:54 PM
I will defer your expertise on this matter, but 2 Tablespoons sugar plus one of honey for a pound of flour seems high. Since I usually make the crispy crust style, maybe I'm out of my league. So respectfully, you sure?
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: Pete-zza on October 06, 2005, 08:33:28 AM
elsegundo,

You are very observant and your question is a very good one. The sugar and honey combined represent 9.8% by weight of flour. You might also have mentioned that the salt comes in at 3.3% by weight of flour, which is also on the high side. However, I don't believe you should look at those numbers in isolation. I think they have to be looked at in relation to the amount of yeast (1.6%, representing a whole packet), and other factors.

Tom Lehmann basically says that under normal circumstances when salt gets above about 2% (baker’s percent) and the sweetener gets above 5% they are likely to hinder the activity of the yeast by pulling fluids from the yeast by osmosis, thereby slowing down fermentation and possibly resulting in a finished crust that may be too tough and hard. Too much salt can also inhibit protease enzyme performance (which affects gluten development) and the decomposition of the starch to simple sugars (through amylase enzymatic activity), resulting in less browning of the crust because of the reduced levels of residual sugar. In Randy's recipe, the higher than normal levels of sweetener will, of course, compensate in part for any reduction of residual sugars and insure that there is adequate browning of the crust. The use of oil in the dough (2.8% in Randy's recipe) will also contribute to some softening of the crumb in the finished crust and help mitigate some of the problems or effects that high levels of salt (or other factors) might cause. As one can see, there are a lot of competing factors and interplay between the various ingredients, with a lot of "battles" going on beneath the surface of the dough. 

Obviously, Randy’s recipe works very well and, as I understand it, it took Randy several years of experimentation to get the recipe just right. The best explanation I can come up with why Randy’s recipe works so well is that no matter what effects the high levels of salt and sugar have on the normal performance of the yeast and the fermentation process, there is still sufficient yeast left in the dough to carry out all of its normal duties (fermentation, carbon dioxide production, etc.) Stated another way, if I were to use much lower levels of yeast with the same levels of sweetener and salt, I don't believe the results would be satisfactory (and maybe even fatally flawed) because of degraded yeast performance. I also believe it is the “battle” between the salt, sweeteners and yeast and their relative ratios that restrain the dough from producing an overly thick crust, even in the presence of large bubbles here and there in the dough and in the finished crust. The crust is of good height, has very good coloration and, surprisingly, there is not an overly saltiness or cloying sweetness in the crust, as one might expect from the high levels of salt and sweetener. The balance seems just about right.

My experiments with Randy's recipe to date have sought, among other things, to reduce the levels of salt and sweetener below the abovementioned threshholds. That has meant that lower levels of yeast could also be used. Yet, I tried to keep the balances and ratios intact, so as to preserve the basic nature and integrity of Randy's recipe. Thus far, Randy's recipe has survived everything I have done to it.

Peter

Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: elsegundo on October 06, 2005, 12:41:06 PM
Thanks Pete-zza.
If it works it works. 
As a professor of mine used to say, "an ounce of fact is worth a pound of theory".
16 ounces of fact and flour (sugar, salt, yeast and oil) will feed a whole family.


thanks
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: Steeb on October 06, 2005, 09:55:52 PM
Thanks Pete-zza.
If it works it works. 
As a professor of mine used to say, "an ounce of fact is worth a pound of theory".
16 ounces of fact and flour (sugar, salt, yeast and oil) will feed a whole family.


thanks

It definitely works. Randy's recipe is fantastic! It tastes great (basically like a Papa John's hand-tossed) and stretches very easily. This is probably my favorite recipe on the site (at least until I can perfect the Lehman NY recipe :). )
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: giotto on October 07, 2005, 10:36:12 PM
I absolutely nailed the results for a NY pizza using over a 70%+ hydration level (suggested by Tony Gemignani) and under 2 tsp total sugar/honey (this lower amount works fine for me as well), along with the desire to return to past oven procedures as suggested on this thread...
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,524.msg17392.html#msg17392.
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: Pete-zza on January 11, 2006, 02:05:40 PM
The last time I made a “thin” NY style version of Randy’s American pie, on which I reported my results at Reply # 8 of this thread, I indicated that I wanted to repeat the experiment but use all-purpose flour instead of the KASL high-gluten flour.

Over the past few days, I was able to do this. I followed almost exactly the formulation and processing steps as I reported at Reply # 8, but I used all-purpose flour instead of high-gluten flour, and I also used a lower hydration percent. The flour I used was standard, supermarket Gold Medal all-purpose flour, and the hydration percent I used was 60%. The lower hydration percent was used because all-purpose flour does not have the same absorption rate as a high-gluten flour such as the KASL, or even a bread flour. The only other changes I made was to use the pizza sauce that fellow member Les devised and reported on at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1931.0.html, starting at Reply #19, and I used fresh pineapple and part-skim, low-moisture Grande mozzarella cheese. I even used a blend of cornmeal, semolina and white flour to shape the dough while making the 16-inch skin. The final formulation I used was as follows:

Thin 16-Inch NY Version of Randy’s American Style Pizza Dough
100%, All-purpose flour (Gold Medal), 11.85 oz. (335.6 g.), 2 1/2 c. plus 2 T. plus 2 t.
60%, Water (at 72 degrees F), 7.10 oz. (201.36 g), just under 7/8 c.
2.0%, Sugar (ordinary table sugar), 0.24 oz. (6.71 g.), a bit over 1 5/8 t.
3%, Honey, 0.36 oz. (10.07 g.), a bit less than 1 1/2 t.
2.8%, Vegetable oil, 0.33 oz. (9.40 g.), 2 t.
1.65%, Salt (ordinary table salt), 0.20 oz. (5.54 g.), a bit less than 1 t.
0.40%, IDY (SAF Red), 0.05 oz. (1.34 g.), between 3/8 and 1/2 t.
Thickness factor (TF) = 0.10
Finished dough weight = 20.11 oz. (570,01 g.)

The dough made using the above formulation tracked almost identically the previous dough made using the KASL--from dough processing steps and mixing/kneading times, fermentation time, dough warm-up time, and dough handling and shaping qualities. As reported previously at Reply # 8, I believe that the use of honey plays a significant role in the quality of the finished dough and its superior handling qualities, as well as contributing to good coloration in the final crust.

Once the pizza was dressed, it was baked in the same manner as previously reported. The finished pizza was very good--much better than I had expected from a dough that was based on using ordinary all-purpose flour (not even the high-quality King Arthur all-purpose flour). In fact, I would go so far as to say that the pizza was one of the best I have ever made using all-purpose flour. The crust, crumb, texture and color were quite close to the KASL version. I believe that using high-gluten flour or even bread flour will produce a somewhat better crust overall because of the higher protein content of such flours and slightly better crust flavor and crumb, but I wouldn’t hesitate to make an all-purpose flour version if all-purpose flour is the only flour available to use. It might even be possible to improve the all-purpose version by supplementing the flour with vital wheat gluten (VWG).

The series of photos that follow show the pizza at different stages of its production.

Peter
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: Pete-zza on January 11, 2006, 02:09:20 PM
Whole pie and slice...
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: Trinity on January 12, 2006, 08:27:13 AM
Mmmmm! Nice!!!! :)
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: husker3in4 on October 30, 2006, 08:08:52 PM
I would like to be a neighbor of Pete, for sure! This looks like a recipe I want to try, the only problem is I dont have a KA mixer, only a standard $20 hand held mixer which wouldnt work I dont think. How would you advise to make this dough using just my elbow grease to mix it?
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: Pete-zza on October 30, 2006, 09:55:21 PM
husker3in4,

The recipe you refer to is for a 16" pie. Is that the size you are interested in making?

Peter
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: husker3in4 on October 31, 2006, 02:21:28 AM
Well I generally make 12" pizzas. I thought I read here somewhere that a 16" recipe will make 2 12" skins. Is that correct?  I am working on getting a KA mixer, but that probably wont happen for awhile. Maybe around christmas, maybe not! I pretty much use my trusty hard plastic spoon to do the mixing, and my hands to do the kneading. I have some King Arthur bread flour, Dakota Mills High Protien flour, some Fleishman's Instant Yeast (1lb freeze dried package, white with blue writing on it) and a kitchen thermometer to temp the water. I also have a stone, screen and pan. After trying all 3, I kinda like the screen or stone best. Hope that gives you an idea of what Im working with :)

Ive come to the conclusion I want to make a clone of Papa John's regular hand tossed style pizza. Once I get as close as possible to that, I will move on from there.  Any recipe suggestion is appreciated :)
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: Pete-zza on October 31, 2006, 09:59:09 AM
husker3in4,

You are well equipped to make a Randy American style or a thin version of it as described in this thread. I have not yet tried using bread flour in that style but Randy did post a bread flour version of his recipe at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1698.msg15290.html#msg15290 (Reply 19). I also have not used hand kneading with Randy’s recipe but my recollection is that others on the forum have done so. I see no reason why you can’t either.

A good way to learn about pizza making is to try different versions of a recipe. For example, I first started with Randy’s basic recipe and gradually modified it to make thinner versions. Along the way, I experimented with reducing the quantities of several of the ingredients to see whether doing so would still produce a decent product (it did). If you like a Papa John’s style, I understand that Randy’s original recipe comes quite close. If you prefer a thinner style—an almost NY style--then a thin version works very well.

As far as the dough preparation is concerned, I don’t think it really matters which flour you use or which version of Randy's recipe you use. Depending on the flour you decide to use you may have to adjust the amount of water (hydration), and you may have to tweak the flour and water to get the desired finished dough condition, but the basic processing steps should be pretty much the same. If you decide to use high-gluten flour, it will be harder to hand knead such a dough, but if you introduce one or more rest periods during the mixing/kneading process, you should be able to manage it.

In your case, I would recommend that you make enough dough for a 16” pizza which, as you correctly noted, translates into enough dough for two, roughly 12” pizzas. There are several possible ways to use hand kneading with the different versions of Randy’s recipe, but I think I would use the following one.

I would start by dispersing the yeast (IDY) in with the flour. Then put the water and salt into a bowl and stir for about 30 seconds or so to fully dissolve the salt. Next, add the honey and sugar to the water/salt mixture in the bowl. To help dissolve the honey and sugar in the water, you can warm up a small amount of the formula water and mix the honey and sugar into it before adding it to your bowl with the rest of the water (which can be at room temperature or even cool). Next, gradually add the flour/yeast mixture to the bowl, about a tablespoon or two at a time, and mix in after each addition with a large sturdy mixing spoon. This is to better hydrate the flour without developing its gluten. Continue to do this until about 2/3 of the flour/yeast mixture has been added to the bowl. Then let the mixture rest for about 5-10 minutes. This rest period will be especially useful if you decide to use high-gluten flour, which yields a more extensive and elastic gluten network, and will allow the dough to soften and become more manageable. It should also help produce a more open and airy crumb in the finished crust, which appears to be a feature you like.

At the end of the rest period, I would add the oil. Normally, I add the oil at the very end before the final knead so that it doesn’t impede the hydration of the flour, but since you will be hand kneading I would add it to the dough mixture while it is still wet and easy to incorporate (as another option, you can even add the salt at this time rather than at the beginning). Once the oil has been incorporated, remove the dough from the bowl and put it onto a work surface. Mix/knead in the remaining flour/yeast mixture a little at a time. If the dough is too wet to handle and overly sticks to your fingers, you can use a bench knife to manipulate the dough by turning the dough as you gradually add more flour (I usually sprinkle the flour onto the dough). There is a natural tendency to want to add more flour, so you should resist doing so since this can lead to a dough that is too stiff.

Continue to add the flour a bit at a time and knead the dough until it become smooth with few surface irregularities. Ideally, it should be on the tacky side. If the dough is too hard to knead, as can happen with a high-gluten flour, let it rest for about 5 minutes, and resume kneading. Since you will be using volume measurements, it may be necessary to add more or less flour and/or water to get the desired finished dough condition. If such modifications are necessary, do so a teaspoon or so at a time. It is hard to say how long you should knead the dough, but you don’t want to overdo it. It is better to slightly underknead it than overknead it.

At this point, the dough can be shaped into a ball or disk shape, lightly oiled, and placed into a suitable container and then into the refrigerator. You should follow the remaining steps as outlined in the particular dough recipe you decide to use. One of the nice things about Randy’s American style dough is that it can be baked entirely on a pizza screen, using a short oven preheat (about 10-15 minutes). Every pizza I have made following Randy’s recipe and my variations of it have turned out very well. I hope you experience the same results.

Good luck.

Peter
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: husker3in4 on October 31, 2006, 08:34:57 PM
Thanks peter, I think I can follow that pretty well. One question, I have been using ziploc bags for the dough when I put it in the fridge. After a few hours the bag is full of air, is that normal or desireable? Also, what type of container is that in your pics and where would I get it?
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: chiguy on October 31, 2006, 09:10:44 PM
Well I generally make 12" pizzas. I thought I read here somewhere that a 16" recipe will make 2 12" skins. Is that correct?

Close but not quite. The surface area of a 16in pizza is 200.96in. and the surface area of a 12in is 113.04in. So two 12in pizzas would be 226.08, a slight difference but noticeable.
                                                                                                      Chiguy
 
 
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: Pete-zza on October 31, 2006, 09:24:01 PM
husker3in4,

Zip-type storage bags are good because they are lightweight with low mass so the dough cools down fairly quickly when the bags go into the refrigerator. They also take up little space in the refrigerator and are transparent so you can observe the dough quite nicely. The negative of such bags is that it can sometimes be difficult to remove the doughs from the bags without mangling them when you are ready to use them. I like the metal cans (with lids) because metal cools down quickly in the refrigerator. The one shown in the photo is simply an empty nut container. I have others that contained cookies and cakes. You can buy metal dough retarding and proofing pans (with lids) like some pizza operators use for around $10 each, plus shipping, at many online restaurant supply companies.  In my case, I have accumulated so many empty food cans like the one in the photo that I have no need to buy the commercial ones.

What you observed with the storage bags you have been using is normal and, to the best of my knowledge, not harmful in any way.

Peter
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: Pete-zza on October 31, 2006, 09:37:07 PM
Close but not quite. The surface area of a 16in pizza is 200.96in. and the surface area of a 12in is 113.04in. So two 12in pizzas would be 226.08, a slight difference but noticeable.

chiguy,

What you say is correct. Of course, the easy solution would be to use a somewhat larger thickness factor for the 16" formulation and stretch the dough out a little bit further for the 12" sizes. However, with so many 16" dough formulations out there, it is simpler just to use the 2-for-1 rule of thumb even if it isn't exact.

Peter
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: husker3in4 on October 31, 2006, 11:53:09 PM
Do you put a lid on your container Pete? Like an airtight lid? or just a lid to cover but air can force its way out? Also, what type of metal is better than another? aluminum better than steel? Im sure I can find some empty cans, just want to know what to look for.
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: chiguy on November 01, 2006, 12:11:55 AM
 peter & husker3n4,
 I noticed after reading you are not using a mixer and probably not a scale for that matter.
 So a real acurate measument of dough weights and thickness factors will not apply at this time for you.        Chiguy
                                                                                       
 
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: husker3in4 on November 01, 2006, 01:09:29 AM
You'd be correct chiguy. No scale, no mixer. Just my trusty measuring cups and my elbow grease.
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: Pete-zza on November 01, 2006, 08:43:45 AM
Do you put a lid on your container Pete? Like an airtight lid? or just a lid to cover but air can force its way out? Also, what type of metal is better than another? aluminum better than steel? Im sure I can find some empty cans, just want to know what to look for.

husker3in4,

I'm not sure what my containers are made of, and I am not a metals expert, but I would think that aluminum would be a good choice, much like these pizza proofing/retarding pans: http://www.foodservicedirect.com/index.cfm/S/311/N/1647/Dough_Retarding_And_Proofing_Pans.htm. I have both tight and loose fitting lids for my pans. Since most of my doughs are low-yeast, low-temperature doughs, I rarely have a lid pop off. I believe the commercial proofing/retarding pans have loose fitting lids. The pans are usually stackable so that only a lid is needed for the pan on top, as shown in the photo at the link referenced above. A loose fitting lid might be best for the Randy American style dough because it is much higher in yeast (and dough temperature) than my usual doughs.

I wouldn't be overly concerned about what type of container you use. You can even use an empty bread bag to hold your dough ball. You just twist the end of the bread bag with the dough in it and tuck it under. The bread bag is actually better in some respects than a Zip-type storage bag because it is easier to remove the dough from the bread bag without mishaping it.

Peter

Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: husker3in4 on November 01, 2006, 09:17:56 PM
Thanks for the info pete, and the link, very good link! Once I can get to the store on friday and get some honey, I will be giving that recipe a shot.  Seems like my biggest problem so far on the 10 or 12 pizzas Ive made with 3 diff recipes is the crust on the outside of the pizza (the poofy part around the edge) is too crispy on the outside. I want it to be soft and chewy on the outside, like papa johns and some other local pizza places. I have cooked on the bottom rack and the middle rack, same result.
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: Pete-zza on November 01, 2006, 09:30:31 PM
husker3in4,

Let us know how the pizza turns out. We can always scale it back up to Randy's original thickness if it turns out to be too thin or too crispy at the rim.

Peter
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: husker3in4 on November 02, 2006, 11:32:25 PM
Peter, now that I look at your pics again, is that cornmeal you are using on the dough ball?
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: Pete-zza on November 03, 2006, 07:45:03 AM
Peter, now that I look at your pics again, is that cornmeal you are using on the dough ball?

husker3in4,

It is a combination of flour, cornmeal and semolina. It is Randy's version of the Dustinator blend used by Papa John's when shaping the dough into skins. A bit of the blend is actually pressed into the dough to give it a marbling effect. If you don't have any semolina on hand, you should be able to get away with using just flour and cornmeal.

Peter
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: husker3in4 on November 04, 2006, 12:24:03 AM
Well Ive got flour and white cornmeal, is the white cornmeal the right kind for this?

And is it 50 - 50 on the mix?
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: Pete-zza on November 04, 2006, 07:06:33 AM
Well Ive got flour and white cornmeal, is the white cornmeal the right kind for this?

And is it 50 - 50 on the mix?

husker3in4,

The white cornmeal should work (I've never tried it) but you should be able to find the yellow cornmeal at any supermarket. I just eyeball the mixture, but 50/50 should work.

Peter
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: husker3in4 on November 18, 2006, 11:35:18 PM
Hi peter, well the hand knead version of this recipe didnt work well. It seems that in almost all of my experiments with recipes here my dough turns out too dry. The only time I had success is with a version of your NY style (lehmann) and I later discovered it was because i was using 2 1/3 cups of flour instead of 2 1/2 cups of flour. When I tried with the full amount of flour = dry dough.

Anyway, I got my KA mixer in today and will try some of the recipes out.

I am going to post a question I have about my KA mixer in the equipment forum.
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: husker3in4 on November 18, 2006, 11:44:24 PM
Peter, I am going to try to make your 14" version of Randy's Original recipe. Using your measurements, I found the instructions a few replies down the page. I revised them so I could understand them and follow them better, but I want to make sure I didnt leave anything out or miss anything. Can you check them out and let me know if they are correct? Also, is the "lightly sealed container" a typo and supposed to mean TIGHTLY sealed container?

Mix flour sugar and salt in separate bowl. Put half the flour mixture and all the yeast into the mixer. Mix the honey and oil in the 120 degree water. Pour water mixture into mixer and mix (using dough hook, on stir setting) about 2 minutes. Stop mixer. Add the rest of the flour mixture and stir until the dough pulls from the sides of the bowl. Stop mixer for 5 minutes. After the 5 minutes, go to speed 2 for 8 minutes. On a lightly floured surface shape into a ball.  Place in the refrigerator in a lightly sealed container coated with olive oil overnight or up to three days.

Remove 3 hours before panning. Cook on screen @ 500 degrees on lowest rack of oven for about 8 minutes.


Mix flour sugar and salt. Put yeast and half the flour mixture in the mixer. Mix the honey and oil into the very warm water. Pour mixture into bowl and place mixer using dough hook on stir for about 2 minutes. Stop mixer. Add the rest of the flour, then set mixer to stir until the dough pulls from the sides of the bowl then stop mixer for 5 minutes. After the 5 minutes, go to speed 2 for 12 minutes. On a lightly floured surface shape into a ball.  Place in the refrigerator in a lightly sealed container coated with olive oil overnight or up to three days.

Remove 3  hours before panning
Remove from the fridge and flatten then fold, then shape into a ball using wet hands.

When I followed Randy's instructions, I used a shorter knead time because of the smaller amount of dough I was making. Also, I didn't flatten and fold the dough after it came out of the refrigerator. I just flattened the dough, covered it loosely with a piece of plastic wrap, and let it set at room temperature for about 2 hours or so. I worked the dough into a skin in a mixture of flour, cornmeal and semolina, as Randy has recommended elsewhere to create a marbling kind of effect.

Peter
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: Pete-zza on November 19, 2006, 09:20:12 AM
husker3in4,

The instructions you quoted in your last reply, including using a "lightly" sealed container, were from Randy's description of his recipe. I don't recall offhand how Randy actually covered his container, e.g., with a sheet of plastic wrap, a damp towel, etc. My recollection is that I used an empty metal cookie tin with a cover.

The instructions you posted, including my modifications, look correct.

Peter
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: pierce652 on January 07, 2007, 08:41:25 PM
I tried this dough recipe, actually Peter's version in reply #8 and it is definately a keeper.  This is my kinda crust.  Soft yet chewy with a hint of sweetness and a nice outer crunch.  The recipe is easy enough to make with minimal mixing time.  I let it sit in the fridge for 24 hours and the ball more than doubled in size.  When I began working it into a skin I thought I would have trouble with tearing however it streched perfectly.  However, in my opinion this makes more than a 16 inch pie, it could almost make two 12's when streched thin enough.  But Im definately not complaining.  Im keeping this as my go to crust.  I know its really good when my wife actually thinks its great and says its better than any pizza joint crust.  Thanks for all the work Peter.  Now I got my crust and also my sauce, from another post of yours. 

Now all I have to do is find a decent cheese.  The last two cheeses Ive used had a wierd consistancy to them. 
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: Pete-zza on January 07, 2007, 10:04:15 PM
pierce652,

If you like thin crusted pizzas you might also want to try out some of the other "thin" versions of Randy's American style pizzas. I thought they were all good.

You might also want to consider making November's pizza sauce as detailed at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3735.msg32136.html#msg32136 (Reply 2) and other related posts in the same thread. I think it is an excellent sauce and have been using it for my thin NY style pizzas. I made it with 6-in-1 tomatoes and the only deviation I made from the recipe was to reduce the amount of sugar, principally because the 6-in-1s are already quite sweet to begin with. I think the sauce will go well with Randy's American style pizzas, thin or otherwise.

Peter
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: November on January 07, 2007, 11:56:42 PM
Thanks, Peter.  I couldn't find the nutrition facts for 6 IN 1 Ground Tomatoes on Escalon's website.  What does the nutrition facts label say for sugars, fiber, and total carbohydrates?

- red.november
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: Pete-zza on January 08, 2007, 09:03:08 AM
November,

For the 6-in-1 all-purpose ground tomatoes (vine-ripened fresh unpeeled ground tomatoes, extra heavy tomato puree, and salt), the total carbs are 8 g., sugars are 4 g., and protein is 2 g.

Peter

Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: trenz on July 29, 2010, 04:27:28 PM
Sorry for bringing up such an old thread but I am planning on making the dough today as described in reply #8. I have a few quick questions.

I was planning this to be used tomorrow night. Should I increase the yeast at all for a 24 hour rise?

Also, I have no KASL, but I do have KABF and Bobs Red Mill VWG. According to the mixed mass calculator (awesome by the way), I will use 11.45 oz KABF and .28 oz VWG. Do you think I will need to change the hydration any.

I have had a number of so so results (mostly ripping while stretching and sticking to the peel) using different recipes, usually between 63% and 70% hydration. I am looking for a good thin pie so I wanted to try this one. I did try a recipe once that had 58% hydration but had trouble mixing it so I added some water and probably ended up in the mid sixtys for hydration.

I recently had delivered for a shop in NJ and he had the perfect crust that I would order thin and crispy when I was working. I asked him what his dough formula was and he said:

50lb all trump
8 oz salt
8 oz sugar
Qt of veg oil
3 gal water

I am not sure how accurate this could be since this would be a very low hydration that I don't think I could mix at home, even with my KA Pro 600 mixer.

Sorry for mixing topics that probably belong in different areas of the forum.

Thanks for any help

Tony

edit: just after posting I called the guy I mentioned and he said I could take some all trumps any time I needed it. I will probably take him up on this but I would still like to proceed with the KABF and VWG so I don't have to rely on borrowing. Thanks


Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: Pete-zza on July 29, 2010, 04:49:19 PM
Tony,

You should be fine substituting KABF for KASL in the recipe given at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1707.msg15953.html#msg15953. With honey and oil in the recipe and a hydration of 61.5%, I don't see a need for increasing the hydration, even if you supplement the KABF with vital wheat gluten. BTW, you correctly calculated the amount of vital wheat gluten to use to get the same protein content as the KASL. Congratulations.

FYI, the 0.28 ounces of Bob's Red Mill vital wheat gluten translates to a bit less than 3 1/4 level teaspoons.

If you'd like, you can post the NJ dough recipe in a new thread. What is the name of the pizzeria?

Peter
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: trenz on July 29, 2010, 05:10:39 PM
Thanks Pete

I would rather not mention the name of the place but if reposting this formula some where would be helpful you certainly can do so. Do those hydration levels look right? He can throw it in the air with low risk of tearing so I imagine it is very low hydration. I get 50% not counting the oil. If the recipe was downsized for home use how would you mix it.

Also, about the yeast in the formula you posted, should I raise it for a 24 hour fermentation since your amounts were for 48 hours. Also, how many days in the fridge do you think it would last because I will probably split it in two for two smaller pies.

Thanks
Tony
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: scott123 on July 29, 2010, 05:29:03 PM
Re; All Trumps

http://www.shorerestaurantsupply.com/index.html

should carry it- if they don't, they should have something comparable (Kyrol, Bouncer, etc.)
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: Pete-zza on July 29, 2010, 05:30:52 PM
Tony,

I did read your earlier question but forgot to answer it. Sorry about that.

At 0.40% IDY, I think the dough should be usable after 24 hours instead of 48 hours. You might get another day out the dough but it will depend on keeping the dough on the cool side at all steps along the way. Usually when you want to extend the useful life of the dough, you decrease the amount of yeast, not increase it. If you lowered the yeast in this case, you might use 0.30% IDY. That should hold you for about three days. It also helps to use cool or cold water if you want to extend the useful life of the dough.

Since a gallon of water weighs 8.345 pounds, the hydration for the dough recipe you posted is about 50%, as you noted. However, oil can add to the rheology and viscosity of the dough. But, in this case, one quart of vegetable oil comes to about 1% of the weight of the formula flour. That will not increase the softness of the dough. In a home setting, the best machine to use in my experience for a dough with a hydration of 50% is a food processor. Of course, you would have to scale the recipe down to a small dough batch.

Peter
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: Randy on July 29, 2010, 07:51:35 PM
I have tried several versions using VWG and none to date benefited from the inclusion.  All, as i remember, had a negative effect on both flavor and texture.

Randy
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: Pete-zza on July 29, 2010, 08:06:43 PM
If one has access to high-protein flours/high-gluten flours, that is better than supplementing a weaker flour with VWG. And not everyone likes the taste profile of VWG. I personally don't mind the flavor impact of VWG and use it when I want to increase the protein content of a given flour. My advice for those who don't have access to high protein/high-gluten flours is to try out the VWG and see if it does the job.

Peter
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: trenz on July 29, 2010, 11:50:58 PM
I just finished putting together the dough a little while ago and I will see how it comes out tomorrow. I had to add a few drops of water but it came together nicely.

The all trumps that I can get free in small amounts is the bleached and bromated. I am not sure if this is considered the best, but I was reading a few threads here and it seems this is the only all trumps I am likely to find since it is so widely used. I did find out that a 50lb bag is only $15, so I think I will pick up a bag for myself.

scott123, you mentioned Shore Supply so you must have seen I am from Brick. I have been in there a number of times but I can't remember if I looked for flour. I know the supplier for the guy I know is Meat Depot (I think they use another name also) in the Lakewood Industrial Park but I will check Shore first

Thanks for the help guys
Tony
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: scott123 on July 30, 2010, 07:05:25 AM
Tony, when it comes to choosing flour, what's 'best' is relative.  First of all, flour in the U.S. is a massive business.  There's a few huge players such as ConAgra, Cargill and General Mills, and smaller ones such as Bay State Milling.  Each company has their highest protein 14ish percent bleached bromated flour. Imo, these are all pretty comparable.  All Trumps (GM) seems to have the most brand recognition/market share when it comes to NY pizzerias, but I don't think AT is inherently better than it's other 14% bleached bromated (b/b) brethren such as Kyrol and Bouncer.

Once you start looking at 14% b/b as a class rather than a single product, 'best' then becomes a question of specific styles.  For a puffy high volume high heat high water NY style pizza, then, yes, 14% b/b is definitely both one of the more popular as well as, imo, better choices. When you walk into a restaurant supply store in the NY metro area, pretty much all the pizza flours are 14% b/b. Slightly lower protein b/b flour (12.6 and up) can make phenomenal NY pizza as well.

I'm no expert on American style, but the pizza in this thread seems to benefit from a denser breadier crumb.  When you're talking dense chewy crumbs, KA is king. I think if you really want to produce a dense crumb from AT, you could, but I think KA (BF or SL) seems to lend itself to this trait far more easier.  So, if you want to make this pizza, in this thread, then I'd stick to KA.  If you're striving for NY style, though, then 14% b/b is the way to go.

Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: Pete-zza on July 30, 2010, 10:01:57 AM
My recollection is that Randy's recipe was intended to mimic a Papa John's style. Papa John's, like the other major national chains Pizza Hut, Domino's, and Little Caesars, does not use bromated flours (confirmed by PJ's itself and its ingredients list). I believe a good part of the reason is that, as national chains, they do business in California, which has strict cancer notice laws. It perhaps does not make good business sense to handle California differently than all of the other states.

My version of Randy's recipe produces what I have sometimes called a hybrid, or a cross between the American style and the NY style. I have never tried using a bromated flour to practice the recipe. However, I don't see any reason why it shouldn't work. But even if a nonbromated flour is used, such as the KASL or KABF, the crust won't be dense from the standpoint of being stiff or rigid. The large amounts of oil and sugar (including honey) will yield a soft and tender crumb because of the retention of significant amounts of moisture during baking. However, one is not likely to get a very large rim with large alveoles. The cellular structure will be fairly compact, even if soft and tender. At least that has been my experience with all of my Papa John's clones in my oven. I baked on screens at around 500 degrees F so that might also have restrained the oven spring.

Peter
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: Randy on July 30, 2010, 11:43:15 AM
... However, one is not likely to get a very large rim with large alveoles. The cellular structure will be fairly compact, even if soft and tender. At least that has been my experience with all of my Papa John's clones in my oven. I baked on screens at around 500 degrees F so that might also have restrained the oven spring.

Peter

I get some pretty good size ones Peter.
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: Pete-zza on July 30, 2010, 12:08:02 PM
Randy,

That looks really nice. Which recipe did you use and how did you bake the pizza (e.g., stone or screen) and at what oven rack position and temperature? Also, what hydration did you use? As I noted at Reply 11 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58438.html#msg58438, I got larger rims with a more open character with my PJ clones when I used a hydration above 60%. With all of the oil that I believe PJs uses in its doughs, I tend to think that they are using a hydration below 60% since the higher hydrations would speed up the fermentation process and also result in greater extensibility when opening up the dough balls.

I might add that the PJ pizzas I have bought did not have large bubbles or voids.

Peter
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: yangmanning on May 27, 2019, 10:35:08 PM
Hi All!

Thanks Mr Randy and Mr Peter for your guidance. I attempted the recipe in Reply #8 over the weekend with good results. As usual, I used the CJ Beksul Korean Bread Flour available to me over here in Hong Kong.

I baked the pizzas on my new 14inch screens at the 2nd to bottom oven rack at 260C for 6 minutes, then transferred onto the pizza stone at the bottom rack for 5 minutes. The base was chewy and delicious, like an NY style. However, I did not get as much oven spring on the Rim as I'd wanted. Can anyone give some tips on how to improve it?

Also, when you all do a fridge fermentation for 48 hours, what temperature is your fridge?

Pictures Attached.

Thanks!

 
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: Pete-zza on May 28, 2019, 01:36:48 PM
yangmanning,

I think your pizzas look very good.

As for your oven spring question, there are ways of increasing the oven spring but I was trying to stay pretty close to Randy's dough formulation. That formulation includes a lot of sweeteners (sugar and honey), totaling about five percent, and also a fair amount of oil, almost three percent. Unless you elevate the hydration value, the sweeteners and oil will tend to hold the oven spring down at normal oven temperatures. It is possible to increase the oven temperature from its normal value to increase the oven spring but you would have to watch the bottom crust very carefully and quickly move the pizza to a higher oven rack position once the bottom coloration is to your satisfaction inasmuch as the high sweetener level will be prone to cause a rapid darkening of the bottom crust, even to the point of burning if you are not careful. Moving the pizza up in the oven will allow the top of the pizza to finish baking. You might even lower the oven temperature when you move the pizza up in the oven. I discussed some of the above points in a post in the Papa John's clone thread at Reply 11 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg58438#msg58438

As you can see from Reply 11, increasing the amount of yeast can also help increase the oven spring but that method did not appeal to me for the reasons noted in Reply 11. But your objectives may be different than mine so you should feel free to modify the dough formulation to achieve the results you are looking for. That would mean using a somewhat higher hydration value, less sweeteners, and more yeast, or some combination of these options.

As for my refrigerator temperature, depending on the time of year, I would say that it varies in a range of about 37-42 degrees F. At the higher end of that range, I might use colder water to achieve a lower finished dough temperature or use less yeast, or maybe even a combination of both methods.

Peter
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: yangmanning on May 29, 2019, 03:41:48 AM
This information is super helpful. I will try the colder water with reduced final dough temp. Thanks so much!
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: Randy on June 10, 2019, 02:32:33 PM
This information is super helpful. I will try the colder water with reduced final dough temp. Thanks so much!


Really nice looking pizza.
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: tennisman03110 on July 14, 2020, 02:38:28 PM
This is an older topoc, however it's still on the first page, so here goes.

I made Randy's thin from reply #8 for a second straight week. So far, it has been my favorite from this site (not a big sample size). I'm in North Carolina, smaller apartment, so not using my stone for a few months. Screen and American style for now.

Overall this is/was a great recipe. The dough I found easy to work with, but was able to work it a bit more than the Papa John's dough. Flavor is great, nice texture, etc. The first time I made it the dough was very bubbly/rose after 24 hours (almost tripled in 48 hours), this time it rose less overall, maybe doubled in 48 hours.

Couple questions.
1.The crisp is very nice, but the crust is almost a bit too hard and I'd like more chew. Any thoughts on this?

2. The cheese melt leaves something to be desired. It seems to separate after 8 minutes, pizza in bottom rack at 500F. I have better luck with melt using the stone/broiler combo, but not possible right now. I'm using Sam's Club store brand whole milk mozzarella that I shred myself.

Some pictures below of the dough at 48 hours, a finished pizza, and the crust rise. To note, the first time I made it, the dough almost filled the container.

Thanks!
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: Pete-zza on July 14, 2020, 02:54:57 PM
Dustin,

Can you tell us which specific Randy recipe you used, and also the type and brand of flour you used?

Peter
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: tennisman03110 on July 14, 2020, 03:15:39 PM
Dustin,

Can you tell us which specific Randy recipe you used, and also the type and brand of flour you used?

Peter

Peter,

I used the "16-Inch NY Version of Randy’s American Style Pizza Dough" recipe from reply number #8. I used a dough calculator to make (2) balls at 440 grams. Was aiming for 14" per my screen, they got closer to 15" by the time I formed them.

My flour was King Arthur Sir Lancelot.

That's my dough on the screen. Maybe it got a bit thin.


Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: Pete-zza on July 14, 2020, 04:21:26 PM
Justin,

The link to the dough formulation you used is https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=1707.msg15953#msg15953 (Reply 8).

Off the top of my head, a few things occur to me that you might consider.

First, you could increase the thickness factor. I used 0.10 in Reply 8. Randy used a considerably higher thickness factor in his original dough formulation but I lowered it because I was trying to create a crust thickness that was a hybrid or cross between an American style and the NY style. In your case, if you increase the thickness factor to something like 0.12 you will get more dough. And when you form the skin, you should be able to make the rim larger.

Second, you might be able to get rid of the honey, which contains about 17% water, and increase the hydration value to around 63%. That hydration value is the rated absorption of the KASL flour that you are using. Hopefully, the increased hydration value might result in increased oven spring. With respect to the honey, and the sugar as well, you will note that I discussed the effect of these ingredients on finished crust texture at Reply 16 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=1707.msg17364#msg17364

You will also note that I reduced the amount of salt in Reply 8.

The only way to know if the above suggestions will solve your problem is to alter the dough formulation as I noted and see how it works out.

Peter



Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: tennisman03110 on July 14, 2020, 09:38:04 PM
Thanks for the input. I did read through the whole thread a while back, and recall the talk about the honey.

It might be a few weeks until my next pizza time, but I'll adjust my recipe and report back.
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: Randy on July 14, 2020, 09:51:38 PM
I still make this pizza.  It is one of my favorites. Well  the original thicknes.
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: tennisman03110 on July 18, 2020, 10:02:27 AM
Okay....so I followed the advice. Upped the hydration, removed honey, put in fridge last night (Friday). Very nice dough.

Was planning on making it Sunday evening.....buuuut turns out I'm not going to be available. I've got to make it just 24 hours after the dough has been resting.

Should I take out of fridge earlier than 45 minutes prior to baking? Any other tips?
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: Pete-zza on July 18, 2020, 11:51:26 AM
Should I take out of fridge earlier than 45 minutes prior to baking? Any other tips?
Justin,

That might help but you should monitor how the dough behaves in terms of its expansion. If the dough rises too fast, you can put it back in the refrigerator.

Let us know how things turn out.

Peter
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: Randy on July 19, 2020, 09:18:18 AM
I make a double recipe now to fit my pizza oven.  I take the two dough balls out of the fridge about 2-3 hours before  shaping.  When it comes out of the fridge, I remove it from the Pam'ed plastic bag then reball each one.  I place each ball on a flour dusted, typical waxed paper plate, then place that in a large microwave just to help reduce drying.  I do lightly dust the ball on top.  The paper plate is just to limit cleanup.
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: tennisman03110 on July 19, 2020, 01:49:12 PM
Some good and bad with 24 hours. I took dough out about 3 hours before. Didn't reball. By the time I went to form the skins, dough was room temp (77) and very loose and extensible. Too much so.

Finished pie was pretty good. Crust was a bit thicker and some good chew (could use more). Flavor was a bit lacking, maybe the time aspect.

Cheese melt also not great. I baked on bottom rack for 8 minutes, and top rack for 2 minutes with broiler.

Thinking I'll want to try again with 48 hour rise.
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: Randy on July 19, 2020, 02:39:09 PM
Keep in mind different brand ingredients and different ovens and pans will change the results.

I bake on a stone or a screen, never a pan.

Did you make the dustonator?  Without it the flavor changes.
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: tennisman03110 on July 19, 2020, 04:20:32 PM
First off, I went back through back some old posts (there's so many). I missed the re-balling instructions, so I'll add that. That's probably one of the reasons my dough had less than optimal strength.

My dustonator blend includes only cornmeal and flour. I have no semolina right now. I spend quite a bit of time with my parents and try to minimize being in public. Maybe I'll look for some semolina (and my name is Dustin, so i'ts meant to be)

I use a 16" pizza screen. The pan is what I use to cut and hold the cooked pizza. I do wait for the oven light to come on before placing the pizza in the oven. I'll try no broiler, but previously my pizza looked pale.

My cheese is Sam's Club Part Skim Mozzarella (I shred myself, small shreds) and I use Red Pack tomatoes for Randy’s Penzeys/6-in-1 sauce.
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: Pete-zza on July 19, 2020, 04:37:49 PM
Dustin,

In my own case, I did not re-ball the dough balls. However, if you decide to do that, be sure to let the dough balls warm up again so that they can be easily opened. Re-balling tightens up the dough and makes it harder to open if you do not let it rest for a while.

I thought that your pizza looked good, especially for a first effort.

Another way that you can try if you want more chew is to bake the pizza at a lower temperature and for a longer period of time.

Peter
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: tennisman03110 on July 19, 2020, 04:58:39 PM
I make two dough balls each time, so I'll try one re-ball and one left alone to compare.

We (both my parents and girlfriend) all agree this is a very tasty pizza, using the screen only. So I'll keep at it about once a week (until October, want to learn some NY style eventually).

I've made pizza a few times at my parents house and I believe their gas oven works better. The burner is below the floor and creates an even bottom "plate". My apartment has electric coils and not as even.
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: Pete-zza on July 19, 2020, 06:25:29 PM
Dustin,

I like that you want to try one re-ball and not do that with the other dough ball. That should be a good teaching experience.

As for the “thin” Randy pizzas, more than once I posted that I thought that such pizza would make for a good chain pizza. See, for example, Reply 1244 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg487442;topicseen#msg487442

You will also note that in Reply 1244 I talked about how one might try to achieve a crispier crust.

Peter
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: Randy on July 20, 2020, 07:33:24 AM
I think you are well on your way to be an excellent pizza maker.

Past issues with Penzeys had me change spice houses.  As it turns out, that turn to my advantage.  Spice inc has a superior pizza spice blend.  I just add one teaspoon of that with a bit of olive oil to make my pizza sauce.

https://www.spicesinc.com/p-109-pizza-seasoning.aspx (https://www.spicesinc.com/p-109-pizza-seasoning.aspx)
Title: Re: "Thin" Version of Randy's American Style w/Bakers Percents
Post by: tennisman03110 on August 03, 2020, 12:28:46 PM
I wanted to start with a "control" recipe. This was the same as above (no honey, 63% Hydration). My salt was at 1.65%.

The dough rose nicely in 48 hours. I didn't re-ball either pie to start (next time). I took the dough out of the fridge 1-hour prior to baking, but left them in the container until right before opening the dough.

I used 50/50 flour/cornmeal to open them. The first pizza turned out slightly more even than the first, and wasn't as crispy (a good thing here). Neither had great oven spring, I cooked them at 475F on a screen, lowest rack, about 10 minutes.

The flavor with less sugar is what I enjoy. However, it seemed like an increase in salt was needed. The crust alone was just slightly bland.

Along with increasing the salt, I'll try one with a re-ball next time. I'm not sure if there's anything else I'll also do next time, but still could have used a bit more "chew" and a more open crust.