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Offline pmancuso

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Inconsistency
« on: February 22, 2021, 08:04:57 AM »
How come sometimes my crust turns out like bread.  I have never been able to obtain that nice airy dough structure even when my pies are light.  Also for some reason this last batch came out a little wetter with the exact same mixture I always use weighed in grams.
Pat

Offline 02ebz06

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Re: Inconsistency
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2021, 11:55:18 AM »
Since it will be asked if I don't, what is your recipe and your procedure ?
Bruce here... My cooking toys --> FGM 800-B Pizza Oven, Pellet Grill, Pellet Smoker, Propane Griddle, Propane Grill

Offline pmancuso

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Re: Inconsistency
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2021, 01:08:15 PM »
Hi, my recipe is as follows:
                781g King Arthur Bread Flour
                491g bottled water
                   3.86g ADY ( my scale does not do fractions so it comes close to 1 1/2 tsp which is what I use)
                  15g Sea Salt
                  15g Olive Oil

I use a KA mixer.  I divide the flour in half putting the yeast in one and the salt in the other.  I put all the water and the half with the yeast together and mix to like a cake batter and let sit covered for 20 minutes.  Then gradually add the other half of flour with the salt running the mixer on #2 until it starts to form and I then drizzle in the oil last, sometimes I wait too long because the dough just spins in the bowl and I have to remove it and wipe down the bowl but it works.  The kneading time may vary a little since I go by looks but I would say 5-8 minutes tops.  I weigh it up divide into (3) 428g balls (14" pies) the balls are usually nice and smooth and soft and elastic.  I then bag them air tight in freezer bags and freeze, I do not let them rise and reball.  I take one out and put inthe refrigerator for 3 days as it expands then take out onto the counter 2 hours prior to baking expanding a little more.  My pizzas have been pretty good overall but the flavor and structure varies.  Any help would be appreciated.
Pat

Offline wotavidone

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Re: Inconsistency
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2021, 02:24:10 PM »
I've never had any luck cooking a pizza I personally find acceptable using frozen dough.

However, what sort of device are you using for the cooking, and how are you measuring the cooking temperature.
For nice puffed up crusts, I reckon ya gotta have heat.
Mick

Offline pmancuso

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Re: Inconsistency
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2021, 06:40:42 PM »
I bake on and am very successful using a perforated metal pizza pan.  I use the middle rack, the oven is electric set to 550 degrees and bake time is 7 minutes.
Pat

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Offline Pizza_Not_War

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Re: Inconsistency
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2021, 06:47:18 PM »
Are you freezing them for the same length of time? For example, comparing dough frozen for a week vs. a month?

How about baking some pizza from non frozen dough? How does that work out for you?

Offline pmancuso

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Re: Inconsistency
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2021, 06:57:36 PM »
I freeze 3 of them at a time making one per week then remaking.  So one is in for one week the next for two weeks and the last for three then I start over again.  I have had the same results with dough kneaded balled and put directly into the refrigerator for 2-3 days not frozen.  This last batch was supposed to be 63% hydration but seemed to be more which I don't know how that can be.  Is it true that the dough should be of less hydration in a lower temperature oven such as a 550 degree.  I see photos here of people getting that perfect open airy rim and like I said in my first post sometimes it is more like bread.
Pat

Offline Pizza_Not_War

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Re: Inconsistency
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2021, 07:06:39 PM »
A pizza steel in the oven @ 550F will make you smile. They aren't that expensive and the extra dough lift comes from the fast transfer of heat vs. putting pizza in on a cold pan.

Was the wetter dough using the same bag of flour? If it was did you possibly mis-measure? Even after all these years of baking, I still occasionally make a measuring mistake. I always weigh my dough when finished and would immediately know something is wrong if I left something out or miscalculated. Just happened the other day when I came up short 45g and realized I left my sourdough starter out.

To sum up, I found great improvements when I switched from pan to pizza stone and then another level when I went to the pizza steel.

Offline Yael

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Re: Inconsistency
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2021, 07:14:24 PM »
Hi, my recipe is as follows:
                781g King Arthur Bread Flour
                491g bottled water
                   3.86g ADY ( my scale does not do fractions so it comes close to 1 1/2 tsp which is what I use)
                  15g Sea Salt
                  15g Olive Oil

I use a KA mixer.  I divide the flour in half putting the yeast in one and the salt in the other.  I put all the water and the half with the yeast together and mix to like a cake batter and let sit covered for 20 minutes.  Then gradually add the other half of flour with the salt running the mixer on #2 until it starts to form and I then drizzle in the oil last, sometimes I wait too long because the dough just spins in the bowl and I have to remove it and wipe down the bowl but it works.  The kneading time may vary a little since I go by looks but I would say 5-8 minutes tops.  I weigh it up divide into (3) 428g balls (14" pies) the balls are usually nice and smooth and soft and elastic.  I then bag them air tight in freezer bags and freeze, I do not let them rise and reball.  I take one out and put inthe refrigerator for 3 days as it expands then take out onto the counter 2 hours prior to baking expanding a little more.  My pizzas have been pretty good overall but the flavor and structure varies.  Any help would be appreciated.

Here are a couple of ideas and suggestions:
- give us the % of your recipe, it's better for a quick understanding of the amounts for us  ;);
- did you take some pics? It would also help us;
- "sometimes I wait too long because the dough just spins in the bowl" What is your FDT (final dough temperature)? Differences could impact the fermentation.
- about that, I would make everything simpler, in this order in your bowl: water, salt, oil, flour, yeast and start mixing (6 to 10 min). FDT 23-25°C.
- did you try adding more yeast? During freezing process, a part of the yeast won't make it so you can (should) add more, I think Tom suggested x3 (that would be around 1 or 1.2% CY if I'm not mistaken)
- you bake at 550°F?

To get better consistency, you need to be more... well, consistent, from the very beginning. It's the "less fun" side but it's important! For instance, try to find a scale that have 2 decimals (0.01g), so you can be more precise.
And before you know it you'll make the best pizza you ever made  :P  :chef:
“Learn the rules like a pro so you can break them like an artist” - Pablo Picasso

Offline pmancuso

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Re: Inconsistency
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2021, 08:53:55 PM »
Pizza_Not_War - I will look into the steel sheet.  I have had bad luck with stones.  That might be the ticket.
Yael - My percentages are fine they are from the Lehman Calculator.  I do not take the temperature but will next time and let you know.
          Flour 100%
          Water  63%
          ADY  .005%
          Salt    2%
          Oil      2%
« Last Edit: February 23, 2021, 07:03:18 AM by pmancuso »
Pat

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Offline scott r

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Re: Inconsistency
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2021, 08:11:54 AM »
as usual yael is right on the money, but I wanted to add a few things

Where I live I can sometimes have to adjust the water by 3-4% even when using the same brand of flour.   I think the problem is not at the mill, but what happens to the flour after the mill.  Did it sit in a humid dry storage in the summer?... Did it stay in an air conditioned (dry space)?  Did it sit in my dry heated home for a few weeks in the winter?....These things seem to make a difference. For this reason I often adjust the amount of water or flour in my batch on the spot as mixing is happening. 

Finished dough temperature can really help with consistency.  Always mix to the same temperature for a consistent result, and adjust your water temp to help you do that.

Jewelers scales are very inexpensive and can do your small yeast amounts.   Im not sure its really needed as I have luck at home with teaspoon measures, but you can get one for under $20 to augment the scale you already have.   The inexpensive ones cant do the weights you will need for flour/water so many of us have 2 scales.


Offline foreplease

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Re: Inconsistency
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2021, 09:46:36 AM »
I get 0.5% not .005% from your measurements, pmancuso. Even at 0.5 you may need more for dough you intend to freeze immediately.


The easiest thng you can do for consistnt dough temp is to be consistent with the temp of the water you are using.


I suggest putting your oil in just ahead of the last (approx) of your flour. That may not be text book optimal but it will be consistent. I used to put it in with the ADY and water. I now use IDY.


Speaking of ADY, I didn’t see anyone mention it above but you are supposed to bloom ADY in a little bit of the formula water. Placing it dry in with your flour mix is not as effective or consisent, although you may sometms get away with it with your long mix time, but will need more yeast.

-Tony

Offline pmancuso

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Re: Inconsistency
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2021, 07:06:28 PM »
I have no problems not proofing the ADY.  I have been using 1/2 of a percent for the yeast which is low, don't remember were I got that from. However I have never paid attention to the final dough temperature.  When I started out I went by Jeff Varasano's principals and for home pizza he did not pay attention to it.  The FDT would only rise 3-4 degrees and with a cold fermentation or freezing I wouldn't think you would want a FDT of 80 or more.
My water temperature is cold at 68-69 with room and flour temp. at 70.
I am going to invest in a pizza steel and also try the bake/broil method in the near future.
Pat

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