Pizza Making Forum

Pizza Making => Newbie Topics => Topic started by: Whisky on March 26, 2019, 10:16:56 AM

Title: Instant Sourdough Yeast
Post by: Whisky on March 26, 2019, 10:16:56 AM
I found something "new" in the store the other day:

https://redstaryeast.com/red-star-platinum-instant-sourdough-yeast/

Not sure how new it is, or if it's any good at all? Anybody try it with pizza? How would you go about determining the amount to use? It's an 18g pack that they say replaces a 7g pack of IDY. So essentially just uses about 2.5 times the amount of sourdough yeast in place of a known IDY formula?
Title: Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
Post by: The Dough Doctor on March 26, 2019, 10:42:34 AM
From the looks of it I'm guessing that it's nothing more than IDY with an added inactive white sour for flavor. We have been doing this for decades in the wholesale baking industry as well as in some segments of the frozen dough and frozen pizza industries. Red Star manufactures both of these items so it would only be natural that they combine them.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
Title: Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
Post by: TXCraig1 on March 26, 2019, 11:19:19 AM
From the looks of it I'm guessing that it's nothing more than IDY with an added inactive white sour for flavor. We have been doing this for decades in the wholesale baking industry as well as in some segments of the frozen dough and frozen pizza industries. Red Star manufactures both of these items so it would only be natural that they combine them.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

That was my first thought when I saw the post, but reading the description at the site makes me think it may actually include a viable SD culture.
Title: Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
Post by: parallei on March 26, 2019, 11:24:20 AM
I was given a few packs at the Pizza Expo.

Ingredients are :

"Cultured Rye Flour [rye flour, stater culture (Lactobaccillus)], Yeast, Soy Flour, Ascorbic Acid, Sorbitan Monosterate, Wheat Flour, Enzymes."

As far as I can tell, the (Yeast, Ascorbic Acid, Sorbitan Monosterate, Ascorbic Acid) is IDY.  Maybe the enzymes are the same as added to wheat flour in place of malted flour.

I tried it is an overnight no knead bread dough and used twice as much as I would have straight IDY.  That was still a pretty low dose.  I noticed a mild flavor difference, but like I said, it was a pretty low dose.  Soon, I'll try it in a 24 hour room temp pizza dough and see how it stacks up against my starter.   



Title: Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
Post by: TXCraig1 on March 26, 2019, 11:38:09 AM
Assuming there is viable SD yeast/LAB in the mix, I would imagine that the ratios is set so that a full pack of the product performs identically in terms of rise time as a full pack of straight IDY.  Since the growth rates of (most) SD cultures and IDY are different, you might get some interesting results using it in low doses at RT.
Title: Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
Post by: Whisky on March 26, 2019, 11:49:51 AM
On their site they say 1 pack is good for raising 1lb of flour. They don't say at what fermentation temp and time, although they do say mix with 120-130*F water. Quick rise obviously.

So, 260g NP dough balls (@ 5.58oz flour/ball) 1 pack should be good to make 3 260g NP pies (16.74 oz flour). Seems like a lot of stuff going in for 3 small pizzas.

It also says this

Quote
Since the packet contains a blend of yeast and sourdough starter, only full packets of Platinum Instant Sourdough should be used in recipes.
Title: Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
Post by: parallei on March 26, 2019, 11:58:53 AM
Assuming there is viable SD yeast/LAB in the mix, I would imagine that the ratios is set so that a full pack of the product performs identically in terms of rise time as a full pack of straight IDY.  Since the growth rates of (most) SD cultures and IDY are different, you might get some interesting results using it in low doses at RT.

We'll see.

There was an International Artisan Bakery Expo (IABE) running concurrently with the Pizza Expo.  At the IABE part of the displays there were a couple of manufacturers showing their dry sourdough starters.  I'm not sure how to describe them, but basically dry mixes one would activate and then use like starter.  The thought being one wouldn't need to hassle with maintaining one's own starter.  Obviously for the commercial baker.  Lots of cool bubbling vats of stuff though!

 
Title: Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
Post by: parallei on March 26, 2019, 12:10:58 PM
On their site they say 1 pack is good for raising 1lb of flour. They don't say at what fermentation temp and time, although they do say mix with 120-130*F water. Quick rise obviously.

So, 260g NP dough balls (@ 5.58oz flour/ball) 1 pack should be good to make 3 260g NP pies (16.74 oz flour). Seems like a lot of stuff going in for 3 small pizzas.

It also says this

Interesting.  It doesn't say any of that on the retail packets I was given at their booth.  Just ".....Use it in any recipe that calls for yeast."  And "Simply substitute this package for 1/4 ounce packet of Red Star Yeast".  Mine are 0.63 oz packets, so I figured use 2.5x what I'd normally use of straight IDY.  I've no idea how that ratio would effect the sourdough related ingredients, particularly at the lower yeast dosages we tend to us.
Title: Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
Post by: Whisky on April 02, 2019, 12:11:33 PM
parallei, did you ever try the 24hr RT comparison? Anymore feedback on this? thanks
Title: Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
Post by: parallei on April 02, 2019, 12:45:06 PM
parallei, did you ever try the 24hr RT comparison? Anymore feedback on this? thanks

No not yet.
Title: Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 18, 2019, 08:58:29 PM
They stock this at HEB (local grocery chain) now. $0.89/pack. I bought a pack and gave it a try in bread. I made a typical lean dough. For 1000g total weight, I used half the package. I did a preferment for about 8hours at RT with 100g each of the formula flour and water. After incorporating the rest of the ingredients into a final dough, I put it in the fridge for a few days. Three if I remember right.

My first observation is that the yeast mix itself has a very strange smell that I did not care for at all. The finished poolish smelled a bit better but still a bit strange. By the time I made the dough, it had more of a smell that I'd expect in a sourdough. The baked loaf had a very nice sourdough smell and a nice mild-medium sour taste that was well beyond what I think you could ever develop with plain baker's yeast.

While it's probably not something I'd ever use for pizza unless I wanted to make a very sourdough pizza for some one-off reason, it is something I can see myself using for sourdough bread as it's a lot simpler logistically than a culture because it works well at refrigeration temps and doesn't require any care, feeding, etc.
Title: Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
Post by: quietdesperation on May 18, 2019, 09:29:17 PM
tom l posted an overnight sourdough recipe here:
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=57588.msg577792#msg577792
Title: Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
Post by: PizzAmateur on May 20, 2019, 12:57:37 AM
tom l posted an overnight sourdough recipe here:
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=57588.msg577792#msg577792

That link takes me below your recipe in that thread.

Try this: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=57588.msg577684#msg577684

Takes you to the top of the message thread and your recipe?  I could be wrong...
Title: Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
Post by: The Dough Doctor on May 20, 2019, 01:43:21 AM
The "cultured rye flour" is the tip off that it's a dry, inactive sourdough material that is being added. The ingredients following it in brackets are the ingredients of the "cultured rye flour".
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
Title: Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 20, 2019, 06:38:36 AM
The "cultured rye flour" is the tip off that it's a dry, inactive sourdough material that is being added. The ingredients following it in brackets are the ingredients of the "cultured rye flour".
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

What do you mean by "inactive?" Inactive like the yeast are inactive until hydrated or inactive like the cultured rye flour is just a flavoring and does not contain viable organisms?
Title: Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
Post by: PizzAmateur on May 20, 2019, 06:53:13 AM
What do you mean by "inactive?" Inactive like the yeast are inactive until hydrated or inactive like the cultured rye flour is just a flavoring and does not contain viable organisms?

At least for me, it is obvious that this is just a "flavoring".  Although there may be actual SD culture that could be nurtured and revived, that is not what the post was about.

This is a fast dough, not a long fermenting dough, right?

Even I get that. ::) >:D :angel:
Title: Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 20, 2019, 07:30:24 AM
At least for me, it is obvious that this is just a "flavoring".  Although there may be actual SD culture that could be nurtured and revived, that is not what the post was about.

This is a fast dough, not a long fermenting dough, right?

Even I get that. ::) >:D :angel:

Have you tried it?
Title: Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
Post by: PizzAmateur on May 20, 2019, 07:34:43 AM
Have you tried it?

No.  Have you?
Title: Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 20, 2019, 07:41:33 AM
No.  Have you?

Scroll up about 8 posts...
Title: Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
Post by: PizzAmateur on May 20, 2019, 07:48:34 AM
Scroll up about 8 posts...

I've read the entire thread.

More than once...

Oops... I see that you did try something.

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=56858.msg577823#msg577823
Title: Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 20, 2019, 08:32:00 AM
At least for me, it is obvious that this is just a "flavoring". 

Based on the sourness level of a 1kg batch made with half a pack, I don't think it's just a flavoring. I think it has viable LAB.
Title: Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 20, 2019, 08:34:59 AM
From the looks of it I'm guessing that it's nothing more than IDY with an added inactive white sour for flavor.

The IDY is distinct, however the majority of what is in the package is a fine rust-red powder.
Title: Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
Post by: The Dough Doctor on May 20, 2019, 11:23:23 AM
That would be the cultured rye flour.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
Title: Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
Post by: parallei on May 20, 2019, 11:29:54 AM
Based on the sourness level of a 1kg batch made with half a pack, I don't think it's just a flavoring. I think it has viable LAB.

Having used this product two or three times now, I would agree.

Also, if it was just a "flavoring" of some type wouldn't it need to be listed somehow in the ingredients list?  I don't think of the LAB in my starter as a "flavoring" that would be listed on an commercial ingredients list.
Title: Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
Post by: The Dough Doctor on May 20, 2019, 04:59:15 PM
It has to do with the U.S. labeling regulations, the "cultured rye flour" is the flavoring and the fact that the LAB is shown in brackets immediately following the cultured rye flour means that these are the ingredients used to make the cultured rye flour. You will see similar things on the label of various bakery products such as where lecithin is shown as an ingredient immediately followed by brackets showing the source of the lecithin.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
Title: Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
Post by: parallei on May 20, 2019, 05:33:24 PM
It has to do with the U.S. labeling regulations, the "cultured rye flour" is the flavoring and the fact that the LAB is shown in brackets immediately following the cultured rye flour means that these are the ingredients used to make the cultured rye flour. You will see similar things on the label of various bakery products such as where lecithin is shown as an ingredient immediately followed by brackets showing the source of the lecithin.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

I guess I didn't express my thoughts very well.  To my mind, the byproducts of LAB activity produce a flavor like the byproducts of a commercial yeast fermentation produce a flavor (though a different one).  I wouldn't call commercial yeast a "flavoring" and I've never seen it listed as a "flavoring".  Is commercial yeast a "flavoring"?

When my amateur baker's mind thinks of "flavorings", it thinks of things that are directly added to a dough like herbs, spices, extracts and the like. I do not think of the inherent flavor of a substance like wheat as a "flavoring" and I don't think of the byproducts of fermentation as "flavorings".

What are "flavorings" vs flavor?
Title: Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 20, 2019, 06:43:38 PM
It has to do with the U.S. labeling regulations, the "cultured rye flour" is the flavoring and the fact that the LAB is shown in brackets immediately following the cultured rye flour means that these are the ingredients used to make the cultured rye flour. You will see similar things on the label of various bakery products such as where lecithin is shown as an ingredient immediately followed by brackets showing the source of the lecithin.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is how one would label the ingredients of a viable dried culture. White sour, on the other hand, lists acetic and lactic acids as ingredients, correct?
Title: Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 20, 2019, 07:27:17 PM
It was pretty easy to shake out the IDY using a piece of paper, so I started an experiment.  3 bowls @100%HR: 1) control, 2) 0.2% Sifted LAB, 3) 0.2% ISDY. I tasted them after mixing, and there was no sour taste at all in any of them. I'll leave them out for a while and see what happens.

As easy as it was to shake the IDY to the top, if using less than a whole bag, you might want to watch to be sure that you're getting an proper blend of the two.
Title: Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
Post by: parallei on May 20, 2019, 07:48:44 PM
It was pretty easy to shake out the IDY using a piece of paper, so I started an experiment.  3 bowls @100%HR: 1) control, 2) 0.2% Sifted LAB, 3) 0.2% ISDY. I tasted them after mixing, and there was no sour taste at all in any of them. I'll leave them out for a while and see what happens.

As easy as it was to shake the IDY to the top, if using less than a whole bag, you might want to watch to be sure that you're getting an proper blend of the two.

What is the "control"?

As an aside, I'm not too happy with how you shook out the bag.  Next time, you split and I choose.
Title: Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 20, 2019, 07:50:09 PM
What is the "control"?

Just flour and water.
Title: Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 21, 2019, 06:53:19 PM
I have the results of my tests, and I'm 99.9% convinced that the package contains viable LAB and is not simply a flavoring. This morning, there was no activity in the control, a modest amount of activity in the LAB only, and significant activity in the as-packaged. By this evening, there was still next to no activity in the control, however there was significant activity in the LAB-only, and the as-packaged had peaked and was starting to fall. As far as flavor, there was no detectable sourness in the control while the other two were similar with a noticeable, but not particularly strong, sourness. Keep in mind that I only use 0.2% in each of the two test batches.
Title: Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
Post by: The Dough Doctor on May 21, 2019, 07:47:26 PM
I've contacted Lesaffre and got the answer directly from the manufacturer. It contains no viable lactbacillus. It is indeed a mixture of inactive cultured rye flour and IDY.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
Title: Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
Post by: parallei on May 21, 2019, 07:49:30 PM
Yesterday, I did a 24 hr dough @ 57F using the ISDY and baked it off this evening.  I used GM Organic AP, 62% HR, 2.5% Salt and 0.25% ISDY.  The 0.25% ISDY was 2.5X Craig's chart recommended 0.1% IDY.  The baked off crust had a pleasant sourdough flavor. I gave the dough a few sniffs over time as it was fermenting.  I agree with Craig, this isn't just a flavoring that has been added to the IDY.

Title: Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
Post by: parallei on May 21, 2019, 07:52:23 PM
I've contacted Lesaffre and got the answer directly from the manufacturer. It contains no viable lactbacillus. It is indeed a mixture of inactive cultured rye flour and IDY.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Interesting, that is not what they told me at the Pizza Expo!  Who did you contact?  I'd like to speak with them.
Title: Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
Post by: The Dough Doctor on May 21, 2019, 07:55:51 PM
Please send me your e-mail address at <[email protected]> and I'll copy you on my correspondence with the National Accounts Manager, Sandi Cazalet (she was at P.E.).
Tom
Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
Title: Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 21, 2019, 08:03:23 PM
I've contacted Lesaffre and got the answer directly from the manufacturer. It contains no viable lactbacillus. It is indeed a mixture of inactive cultured rye flour and IDY.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

I don't know how to square that up with the results of the test I did. There was a distinct increasing sour taste and aroma over the fermentation period. I also don't think there was enough yeast left in the sifted LAB sample test do do anything noticeable yet I got active fermentation.
Title: Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 21, 2019, 08:04:48 PM
Please send me your e-mail address at <[email protected]> and I'll copy you on my correspondence with the National Accounts Manager, Sandi Cazalet (she was at P.E.).
Tom
Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Email sent.
Title: Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
Post by: dmckean44 on May 21, 2019, 08:06:29 PM
I wonder if the dead starter added to plain flour might provide a more hospitable evenvironment for the naturally occurring lactobacillus in the flour to re-produce.
Title: Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
Post by: Pete-zza on May 21, 2019, 08:15:18 PM
Is it possible that some form of bacterial fermentation was taking place, perhaps along the lines as discussed at Reply 125 Reply at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=35873.msg363650#msg363650 ?

Peter
Title: Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
Post by: parallei on May 21, 2019, 08:21:55 PM
Please send me your e-mail address at <[email protected]> and I'll copy you on my correspondence with the National Accounts Manager, Sandi Cazalet (she was at P.E.).
Tom
Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

e-mail sent to you also.  However, I did contact Lesaffre on their general site with the same question.  We'll see!

Thanks
Title: Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 21, 2019, 08:33:02 PM
Is it possible that some form of bacterial fermentation was taking place, perhaps along the lines as discussed at Reply 125 Reply at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=35873.msg363650#msg363650 ?

Peter

I don't think that's what it was. I added the control to test for that.
Title: Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
Post by: parallei on May 21, 2019, 08:33:27 PM
Is it possible that some form of bacterial fermentation was taking place...........

Peter

(Just being a wise ass here. ;D)  If that's the case, after 24 hours +/-, folks should have a lot easier time creating there own starters!

Obviously, you could very well be correct.
Title: Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
Post by: The Dough Doctor on May 21, 2019, 08:45:04 PM
IF the cultured rye flour is indeed inactive as stated, it's my guess that what has been observed is yeast fermentation from minute particles of the IDY which would be impossible to identify much less sort out of the mixture and the acidity of the cultured rye flour would certainly help to accelerate any yeast activity. Just my "SWAG".  :)
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
Title: Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 21, 2019, 09:19:28 PM
IF the cultured rye flour is indeed inactive as stated, it's my guess that what has been observed is yeast fermentation from minute particles of the IDY which would be impossible to identify much less sort out of the mixture and the acidity of the cultured rye flour would certainly help to accelerate any yeast activity. Just my "SWAG".  :)
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

That's certainly a possibility, but what it wouldn't explain is the increasing sourness over time.
Title: Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
Post by: The Dough Doctor on May 21, 2019, 10:18:59 PM
Sourness from the cultured rye flour (it's quite acidic) plus fermentation from the yeast (remember it's accelerated due to the increased acidity) would create accentuated sourness over time. ?
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
Title: Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 22, 2019, 06:54:38 AM
This morning, the control had fermented a lot and it really stunk bad, so whatever is in the packet prevented whatever flora there is naturally in the flour from doing it's thing in the two test batches.
Title: Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
Post by: bbqchuck on September 12, 2019, 08:42:10 AM
Did you guys ever reach a consensus?  Flavor or...?

And probably of more interest to some...is the flavor pleasing?
Title: Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 12, 2019, 09:21:40 AM
Did you guys ever reach a consensus?  Flavor or...?

And probably of more interest to some...is the flavor pleasing?

The manufacturer confirmed it's just flavor.
Title: Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
Post by: nickyr on September 13, 2019, 06:41:35 PM
Just wondering why does anyone want a sour or this sourdough kind of pizza crust?  I'm not trying to offend, really curious.

Sourdough pizza doughs generally aren’t near as sour as a San Francisco sourdough bread loaf. They’re just slightly more flavorful than regular dough. Most people wouldn’t notice they were sourdough.
Title: Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
Post by: parallei on September 13, 2019, 07:31:00 PM
Sourdough pizza doughs generally aren’t near as sour as a San Francisco sourdough bread loaf. They’re just slightly more flavorful than regular dough. Most people wouldn’t notice they were sourdough.

Using a commercial San Francisco sourdough bread as a bench mark works with most people to get a feel for it.  When I describe my Ischia starter to folks, I almost always say something along the lines of:

"Have you ever had SF sourdough bread?

O.K.  Imagine a Tang-O-Meter.  If commercial SF sourdough bread is a 10, this is a 3."

Title: Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
Post by: nickyr on September 13, 2019, 08:48:34 PM
Using a commercial San Francisco sourdough bread as a bench mark works with most people to get a feel for it.  When I describe my Ischia starter to folks, I almost always say something along the lines of:

"Have you ever had SF sourdough bread?

O.K.  Imagine a Tang-O-Meter.  If commercial SF sourdough bread is a 10, this is a 3."

Mmm you’re making me hungry