Al Taglio with Sunmix help

[tfox39]

Looking for help making al Taglio dough at 80% hydration in the sunmix. Given it a few goes, water all at once in the beginning and also double hydration. The latter turned to soup. The all at once method just never seemed to want to give any dough structure. For reference, when I've made sourdough bread doing this same method, the loaves came out pretty flat. Al taglio is a little more forgiving in the end result. Any ideas if this could be from undermixing? Do I really just need to let it run its course for a long mix with high hydration? Or if anyone has a good video or techniques they can share on mixing for al Taglio in a spiral, it would be much appreciated.

Thanks

[scott r]

Any ideas if this could be from undermixing?

Absolutely!   You probably added the water too fast doing your bassinage or too much at a time. Its shocking how long it takes to get a properly mixed dough at 80 hydration vs, say doing a 60 hydration dough (where I prefer to do very little mixing).

quick synopsis:

Get in enough flour to make it to 60-65 percent hydration and mix until you see the dough start to look like a dough and form a "pumpkin" shape around the center.   At first dont eyeball this... actually measure your water out so that you are for sure in that 60-65 percent hydration realm.

Very slowly add in the remaining water and then oil if used.   If you do too much your dough will "break" and you will get soup.

Recently I screwed this up myself and my dough was not strong enough at the end of mixing.   I then did stretch and folds over the course of the next two days.  The dough needed 8 sets of them all together, with the first few requiring quite a few folds.  Eventually the dough became strong and it worked great even though enough strength wasnt built in the mixer.  Actually this might have been my favorite high hydration dough yet.

After doing this for a while you will learn when your dough is strong enough or not (videos can help).   You will eventually get a feel for if you need to do the stretch and folds or not.   its possible to build enough strength in the mixer that your are done when you shut off the mixer.

Good luck

[Yael]

 

FWIW, I share some of my posts from a few years ago when I was trying this kind of dough, maybe you can find some information:

Here I had similar troubles:
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=50378.0

This one has slightly better results:
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=50472.0

And a test of the no-kneading method:
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=54292.0

[tfox39]

Thank you! I also remember reading somewhere about the speed to use for high hydration but I can't seem to find it. With the sunmix I was doing 125 until pumpkin and then I turned it up to 185 to try and finish it off. Speed aside, I also just felt like the water would need to be barely drizzling in to not break it. In your experience is that so? I remember last time I would do a little heavy drizzle at a time but it eventually broke. Trial and error of course, but getting soup out of the sunmix is no fun task. If you have any comments on the speed and incorporating the rest of the water in, let me know. Going to give it another trial run today.

Thanks!

Absolutely!   You probably added the water too fast doing your bassinage or too much at a time. Its shocking how long it takes to get a properly mixed dough at 80 hydration vs, say doing a 60 hydration dough (where I prefer to do very little mixing).

quick synopsis:

Get in enough flour to make it to 60-65 percent hydration and mix until you see the dough start to look like a dough and form a "pumpkin" shape around the center.   At first dont eyeball this... actually measure your water out so that you are for sure in that 60-65 percent hydration realm.

Very slowly add in the remaining water and then oil if used.   If you do too much your dough will "break" and you will get soup.

[scott r]

More tips:

1) Depending on batch size you will want to adjust how much water you put in there for each addition.  If the mixer is at a small portion of its capacity you should be putting in a very tiny amount of water with your post pumpkin additions.  If your mixer is close to full capacity you can do large water additions.

2) Its better to gradually increase.  The first addition of water after the pumpkin should be the smallest, then you can gradually have larger additions of water until the last  addition of water or the oil. 

3) I have a famag, so a slightly different mixer, but I go to full speed as soon as I start adding my water after pumpkin.   

4) Most people having trouble with ANY mixer are trying to do too small of a batch size.   In my famag I never bother to try a batch with less than 800g of water.   I know the sunmix is supposedly better with small batches, but I would start with that size batch at a minimum and see if you have better luck.

[Yael]

[...]
4) Most people having trouble with ANY mixer are trying to do too small of a batch size.   In my famag I never bother to try a batch with less than 800g of water.   I know the sunmix is supposedly better with small batches, but I would start with that size batch at a minimum and see if you have better luck.

I also have a countertop spiral mixer, and the problem I found is that the bar in the middle of the bowl isn't low enough, there is maybe 4mm of space between the bowl and the bar, and I think 1.5~2mm would be better. For small batches (500g flour) with high hydration, the dough does limbo dance with the bar, which doesn't end up in a good kneading.
I could add a spacer on the top of the bar, but I'll wait till the machine is older.

[Arne_Jervell]

The advice already given seems solid. Since I own a sunmix 6 myself I thought I could chime in with some additional comments based on recent experience.

I use the double hydration method, starting out at 60% at 130 RPM and slowly progressing from there, like described above. I usually end up around 170 RPM. The total mixing time varies but is usually around 17-18 minutes now (my mixing times have decreased steadily with each batch, probably some learning curve there too).

As for batch size, I can vouch for the Sun6's ability to handle smaller doughs. My most recent one was made from 333 grams of flour and 266 grams of water and mixed for 16 minutes. It worked well.

[amolapizza]

Here is a video a friend of mine (Marco) recorded for the confraternita della pizza.  He's not a professional pizzaiolo but rather a medical doctor, still he's really good at making dough and pizza.

He shows how to make an 80% dough in about 8.5 minutes.  Don't be shocked about the yeast amount as it's supposed to be finished for baking in 3-4 hours.  There is also no oil added, but if used it should be added as the last component.

The ambient temperature is 27C, the water cold from the fridge, and the flour at about 18-20C.  Unfortunately he didn't measure the final dough temperature.

Edit: At one point he indicates that this is probably the minimum size of dough to make in this size mixer, and that it would work better with a larger batch.

[Yael]

[...]Unfortunately he didn't measure the final dough temperature.
[...]

FWIW, during one of my pizza trainings one or two summers ago, I got a FDT of 33°C after the regular 5+15 min mixing, so I directly put it in the freezer for an hour or so, and then regular CF... And it just worked well!

[amolapizza]

I guess we are lucky that dough is forgiving and not such an exact science that it's easy to ruin it..

AFAIK, it won't kill the dough to get it too warm, but supposedly it does have negative effects on the dough itself, and it can kill your fermentation schedule.

The reason I noted the temperatures is that I found it funny that he mentioned, ambient, flour, and water temperatures but never checked the final dough temperature.

Still I have the impression that it helps the dough come together using cold water.

[tfox39]

So are you gradually increasing speed as you increase water after your initial 60%? Also, very interesting about your 600 gram pizza. I have only tried one small batch (maybe 800 grams water?) and, while it was in my beginning trial stages, I kept getting dough climbing the spiral. Could have just been user error. Definitely would love to try some small batches.

Thank you to everyone else for the other pointers. I tried the double hydration method for a batch of 4 and it definitely worked to secure a well structured dough. I may have overmixed, however, as it was probably my least stretchy dough I've made. I went from 125 rpm to 210 rpm after the pumpkin and let it run while gradually adding water. I chose to end the mixing when all the water was absorbed. At that point, from my method, I don't think it would have formed a closed pumpkin had I kept mixing, but it was far from soup. I did not keep any data on this mix, unfortunately, but definitely will next time. Also, how does everyone shape these balls? I have always used the method I would with bread in that I use the dough scraper with no bench flour and scrape/spin until it tightens up. I feel often times it can lead to an ugly opening of the dough when it is ready.
Aside from the stretching issue and maybe not the most airy crumb I've had, I was definitely happy with the first results and will keep at this method. Below are two pics from this bake. Thank you all for the info!

I use the double hydration method, starting out at 60% at 130 RPM and slowly progressing from there, like described above. I usually end up around 170 RPM. The total mixing time varies but is usually around 17-18 minutes now (my mixing times have decreased steadily with each batch, probably some learning curve there too).

As for batch size, I can vouch for the Sun6's ability to handle smaller doughs. My most recent one was made from 333 grams of flour and 266 grams of water and mixed for 16 minutes. It worked well.

[scott r]

That looks like it worked.  Im glad we could help.

[amolapizza]

Nice result!

Is that a whole grain flour or 00, it looks kind of dark to me.

For this kind of dough I start at the lowest speed (to avoid the flour escaping the bowl), after a few seconds I up it to middle speed, and when the pumpkin has formed I up the speed to 220 and start adding the remaining water.

You can certainly overmix but at 80% it's getting more difficult..   It does need some kneading from the mixer, you'd notice that you've overdone it, if it turns to slush.  You also see it once you have the dough on the bench and the skin rips when you try to fold or form it.

If I've done the dough well, I'm happy if it only takes a few folds and some pirlatura to close it.  Pirlatura being the Italian word for chasing a dough around the bench with a scraper in order to tighten the skin and make a boule.  IME, if the dough is well done in the mixer it just needs a couple of folds and some pirlatura to close it and make a boule that holds it shape for a long time.  If it's not ready you'll feel it in the dough, and you'll have to make more folds to give it strength.

[tfox39]

This was KA Bread flour, 10% semolina, and about 7% whole wheat.

Nice result!

Is that a whole grain flour or 00, it looks kind of dark to me.