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Author Topic: Hybrid Fermentation  (Read 10500 times)

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Offline MWTC

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Re: Hybrid Fermentation
« Reply #40 on: February 23, 2007, 11:08:23 AM »
November,

I went to the store to get the molasses and there was two types. Regular and robust, I am assuming the robust would be better?

Also, if I use Vital Wheat Gluten with Adolph's tenderizer what would be the ratio or amounts of each? I usually use 800 grams of flour per batch at 60% hydration.

MWTC  :chef:
« Last Edit: February 23, 2007, 12:22:00 PM by MWTC »

Offline November

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Re: Hybrid Fermentation
« Reply #41 on: February 23, 2007, 01:43:52 PM »
I went to the store to get the molasses and there was two types. Regular and robust, I am assuming the robust would be better?

I assume you're talking about Grandma's Robust Molasses.  If so, it's what's known as first molasses, which is essentially pure molasses with most of the sugar removed.  Which one you want to use is up to you.  I only mentioned molasses as an analogy for flavor differences between a food product with a high ash content versus a food product with a low ash content.  In other words, first clear flour would be to regular flour what molasses is to granulated cane sugar.  First molasses is certainly a way to boost the mineral content of your starter/dough, and it won't add as much sweetness.  Molasses is the food used to batch-feed yeast at the manufacturer, so you can't go wrong using it, however you should be sure you like the flavor it adds.

Also, if I use Vital Wheat Gluten with Adolph's tenderizer what would be the ratio or amounts of each? I usually use 800 grams of flour per batch at 60% hydration.

One important ratio would be the salt to starter one because of all the salt in the tenderizer.  Before giving out any numbers though, I first have to ask: is this for a starter or a final dough, what flour are you using, what brand of VWG are you using, and what would you consider the ideal protein percentage for your dough based on the flour and VWG?  I ask because if you're using Harvest King flour and you want your protein level elevated anyway, then there may not be any need to add papain.

- red.november

EDIT: As a reference, Adolph's Tenderizer is 87.8% salt by weight, or 3.864g per tsp.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2007, 02:57:45 PM by November »

Offline scpizza

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Re: Hybrid Fermentation
« Reply #42 on: February 23, 2007, 02:13:11 PM »
I ran the hybrid fermentation again, this time with 1/2 the starter and adding all the salt at the beginning of stage 1.  After 24 hours the goop was not too active and had a dull yeasty smell so I figured that was just right.  Dough mixing and handling characteristics much improved from last test, but still too wet all the way through.

I did a normal batch of dough to be ready at the same time as this so I could do an A/B comparison.  The results were that the hybrid fermentation had a far inferior texture.  Dense and poorly sprung.  Moreover, the flavor was not more intense than the single risen dough.  It was different though, less fresh actually.

November, as you suggest, my starter-based leavening may not be cut out for this technique.  In any case, no luck here reproducing your results.

Offline November

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Re: Hybrid Fermentation
« Reply #43 on: February 23, 2007, 02:46:14 PM »
scpizza, did you again use Caputo 00 flour?

Offline scpizza

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Re: Hybrid Fermentation
« Reply #44 on: February 23, 2007, 03:03:31 PM »
Yes I did.  I know you had suggested trimming my stage 1 fermentation time to 17 hours because of my use of 00, but when I saw how modestly it was fermenting at that time due to my reduction in starter and increase in stage 1 salt I chose to let it go the full 24.

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Offline November

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Re: Hybrid Fermentation
« Reply #45 on: February 23, 2007, 03:15:29 PM »
scpizza,

I think part of the problem is still the use of a non-high-gluten flour.  Without the larger flour granules and higher level of protein, the texture will be degraded in comparison.

- red.november

Offline scpizza

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Re: Hybrid Fermentation
« Reply #46 on: February 23, 2007, 04:08:01 PM »
Could be.  Most unfortunate though was my inability to achieve improved flavor, the primary goal of the procedure.

Offline November

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Re: Hybrid Fermentation
« Reply #47 on: February 23, 2007, 05:14:54 PM »
Could be.  Most unfortunate though was my inability to achieve improved flavor, the primary goal of the procedure.

Flavor is a little easier to figure out.  Like many things in life, what you get out of it is a direct result of what you put in it, multiplied by time.  Which in this case points to the starter.  I would venture to guess you are getting too much flavor from the bacterial byproducts in relation to the yeast byproducts.  I always play it safe with the clean flavor of yeast only (intentionally anyway) fermentation.  There is definitely a point for everyone where the byproducts of bacteria begin to take on an unpleasant characteristic.  Take cheese for example.  I'm pretty sure everyone likes mild cheeses like mozzarella, but once you start letting them age, the flavor takes a sharp turn (pun intended), and not everyone (including myself) appreciates that.  The "less fresh" flavor is most likely a result of giving the bacteria a playground the likes of Walt Disney World.  It's in bacteria's nature to make things taste less fresh if you just give them enough time or food.  On the fungus side of things, mold isn't too tasty either.

- red.november

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