Pizza Making Forum

Pizza Making => Sicilian Style => Topic started by: Artale on March 18, 2005, 03:16:05 PM

Title: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: Artale on March 18, 2005, 03:16:05 PM
Is there a different flour mixture when it comes to making
square pizza.  Does anyone have a recipe for making it?
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: Pete-zza on March 18, 2005, 09:17:25 PM
Artale,

From what I have seen since being a member of this forum, not much has been done with Sicilian style pizzas. One of our members recently posted a recipe for Sicilian pizza that he found somewhere on the Internet (see http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1021.msg9105.html#msg9105), but if you are interested in one that Tom Lehmann of the American Institute of Baking recommends for professional pizza operators, I have posted below the list of ingredients and baker's percents. Unfortunately, the recipe doesn't give actual weights to be able to calculate the amount of dough you will need to make a particular size Sicilian pizza. But all is not lost. Some fairly standard pizza sizes and related dough ball weights are generally well known and can be used. They are as follows: 9'' (10 oz.), 10" (11 oz.), 12" (15-16 oz.), 14" (22 oz.), 15" (25 oz.), and 10" x 14" (22 oz.). If you decide you like Tom Lehmann's recipe and can decide on a size you'd like to make, let me know and I think I may be able to come up with a list of ingredients and amounts for you to try out. Generally, you should try to use a dark, anodized, well-seasoned pan to make a Sicilian pizza. Here is the information on Tom Lehmann's recipe (I can decipher the instructions if you need help):

Flour: 100% (11.5% protein, typical bread flour)
Salt: 2.5%
Olive oil: 5.0%
Yeast (as compressed) 2.0%
Water: 58.0% (+/-)

Targeted finished dough temperature: 75 to 80F. Scale, ball, box, oil the dough balls, cross stack in the cooler for 2 hours, down stack and nest dough boxes, use after 18 hours. Remove from cooler and allow to warm at room temperature for 60 to 90 minutes, press dough into oiled pans, allow to rise for about 40 minutes, or to give desired crust thickness. Bake at 525F. This also makes a pretty decent focaccia too.

As an alternative to the Lehmann recipe, you might also want to take a look at another Sicilian dough recipe, by Big Dave Ostrander, a colleague of Tom Lehmann's. Big Dave's recipe differs from Lehmann's recipe in a few ingredient particulars but the main difference is in the preparation techniques. The Big Dave Sicilian dough recipe is at http://www.pmq.com/cgi-bin/tt/index.cgi/read/1635. Don't worry about the PZ-44. That's a dough conditioner that you shouldn't need. If that recipe interests you, I can help you work out the particulars for your case if you don't have experience with using baker's percents.

A third possibility is this one: http://www.correllconcepts.com/Encyclopizza/05_Dough-making/10_dough_recipe.htm. You might want to consider the test pizza in the right-most column, although you will need to either weigh some of the ingredients or convert from weights to volume.

Peter

EDIT (2/1/2013): For an alternative Correll link, see http://web.archive.org/web/20040606221443/http://correllconcepts.com/Encyclopizza/05_Dough-making/_05_dough-making.htm
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: scott r on March 19, 2005, 04:03:40 AM
I have a friend with a grandmother from Sicily that makes pizza for the family here in Boston all the time.  I am working on getting the recipe right now.  I know she insists on doing it by hand for some reason.  She only makes true Sicilian square pizza, so she might be a good source for you. 

The best Sicilian I have ever had is in Pittsburgh at Mama Lucia's.  I have gotten samples of their sauce, and it seems to be uncooked super high quality crushed tomatoes with no other seasoning.  They let the dough rise in pans sitting by the oven for a while, then pour olive oil on the dough.  Next they put sauce on the pizza.  The pizzas then go in the oven for a while with no cheese or toppings.  Finally they add a little more sauce, a sprinkle of oregano, and cheese etc. and finish the pies off with one more round in the oven.
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: Artale on March 21, 2005, 05:05:16 PM
Artale,

From what I have seen since being a member of this forum, not much has been done with Sicilian style pizzas. One of our members recently posted a recipe for Sicilian pizza that he found somewhere on the Internet (see http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1021.msg9105.html#msg9105), but if you are interested in one that Tom Lehmann of the American Institute of Baking recommends for professional pizza operators, I have posted below the list of ingredients and baker's percents. Unfortunately, the recipe doesn't give actual weights to be able to calculate the amount of dough you will need to make a particular size Sicilian pizza. But all is not lost. Some fairly standard pizza sizes and related dough ball weights are generally well known and can be used. They are as follows: 9'' (10 oz.), 10" (11 oz.), 12" (15-16 oz.), 14" (22 oz.), 15" (25 oz.), and 10" x 14" (22 oz.). If you decide you like Tom Lehmann's recipe and can decide on a size you'd like to make, let me know and I think I may be able to come up with a list of ingredients and amounts for you to try out. Generally, you should try to use a dark, anodized, well-seasoned pan to make a Sicilian pizza. Here is the information on Tom Lehmann's recipe (I can decipher the instructions if you need help):

Flour: 100% (11.5% protein, typical bread flour)
Salt: 2.5%
Olive oil: 5.0%
Yeast (as compressed) 2.0%
Water: 58.0% (+/-)

Targeted finished dough temperature: 75 to 80F. Scale, ball, box, oil the dough balls, cross stack in the cooler for 2 hours, down stack and nest dough boxes, use after 18 hours. Remove from cooler and allow to warm at room temperature for 60 to 90 minutes, press dough into oiled pans, allow to rise for about 40 minutes, or to give desired crust thickness. Bake at 525F. This also makes a pretty decent focaccia too.

As an alternative to the Lehmann recipe, you might also want to take a look at another Sicilian dough recipe, by Big Dave Ostrander, a colleague of Tom Lehmann's. Big Dave's recipe differs from Lehmann's recipe in a few ingredient particulars but the main difference is in the preparation techniques. The Big Dave Sicilian dough recipe is at http://www.pmq.com/cgi-bin/tt/index.cgi/read/1635. Don't worry about the PZ-44. That's a dough conditioner that you shouldn't need. If that recipe interests you, I can help you work out the particulars for your case if you don't have experience with using baker's percents.

A third possibility is this one: http://www.correllconcepts.com/Encyclopizza/05_Dough-making/10_dough_recipe.htm. You might want to consider the test pizza in the right-most column, although you will need to either weigh some of the ingredients or convert from weights to volume.

Peter


Thank you peter!!!


Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: scott r on March 22, 2005, 12:21:36 AM
Here is my friend's Sicilian grandmothers dough recipe.  There is obviously some preparation info missing, but I figured I would give you what I was given.  If I were you I would also experiment with some longer rise times with this recipe.  Any suggestions?

1/4 cup warm water
1 envelope active dry yeast
1 teaspoon sugar
3 1/2 cups bread flour
1/2 cup pastry flour
1/2 teaspoon salt
1 1/4 cup cold water
1 tablespoon olive oil

mix by hand until it forms a ball.  put dough ball in oiled bowl and let sit for 1 hour.  punch down dough.  split into two dough balls and let sit for 1/2 hour.  cook on stone at 500 in a glass pan.
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: Artale on March 22, 2005, 09:12:56 AM
Here is my friend's Sicilian grandmothers dough recipe.  There is obviously some preparation info missing, but I figured I would give you what I was given.  If I were you I would also experiment with some longer rise times with this recipe.  Any suggestions?

1/4 cup warm water
1 envelope active dry yeast
1 teaspoon sugar
3 1/2 cups bread flour
1/2 cup pastry flour
1/2 teaspoon salt
1 1/4 cup cold water
1 tablespoon olive oil

mix by hand until it forms a ball.  put dough ball in oiled bowl and let sit for 1 hour.  punch down dough.  split into two dough balls and let sit for 1/2 hour.  cook on stone at 500 in a glass pan.


Scott thank you for the recipe!!!
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough = semolina
Post by: pizzanapoletana on March 22, 2005, 07:25:48 PM
True Sicilian pizza is made with fine semolina flour.

I can give you a cross-mix of roman pizza and Sicilian pizza derived by my e-friends Gabriele of Pizzarium in Rome and Vincenzo of his father-in-law bakery in Caltanisetta, Sicily.

It involves a very time and effort consuming technique, but the results will be the best you will have in US.

1000g Fine Semolina Flour
750g Water
7g IDY
25g Sea Salt
50g EVO

In the morning when you wake up, mix the following as to make a poolish:
750g Semolina flour
750g Water (cold)
2g IDY
Then put everything in the fridge for 10-11 hours.


After that time, take it out of the fridge and add the remaining 250g Semolina and 5g IDY. mix well and when all the flour has been absorbed, add the salt and oil.

The dough at this point will be very sticky, but do not panic. Wait 15 minutes (covering the mixing bowl) and then "break" the dough and mix again. You will notice that the dough will seams like is drying a bit.

It may be necessary to repeat this process a couple of times until the dough will become less sticky.

Let it rest about an hour, then divide in portions of approximately 500-600g, and let it rest again 40 minutes to an hour in a warm place.

Once it has risen, flatten the dough, grease the baking tray, put the flat dough on it, put the topping and bake immediately.

Let me know the results...
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: Artale on March 23, 2005, 09:21:47 AM
Thank you for this classic recipe i will
try it and let you know how
the family likes it!
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough = semolina
Post by: DKM on March 24, 2005, 12:24:10 PM
True Sicilian pizza is made with fine semolina flour.

Not according to my Sicilian co-worker.

Oh, well.

DKM
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough = semolina
Post by: pizzanapoletana on March 26, 2005, 12:46:27 PM
Not according to my Sicilian co-worker.

Oh, well.

DKM

DKM

I can only tell you to go there and see by yourself. Sicilian focaccia ú sfinciuni palemmitanu
is made like that, traditionally.

I also had a personal experience on one of my consultancy service, in  Caltanisetta, as I had to adapt my methodology to the use of fine semolina flour (semola rimacinata di grano duro).

Ciao
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: scott r on March 26, 2005, 01:19:37 PM
thanks pizzanapoletana I am very excited to try an authentic recipe like this.  We are so lucky to have you here.  Is there a special brand of flour that you would consider to be the best choice?
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: friz78 on May 31, 2005, 06:10:26 PM
Has anyone tried this recipe yet?  I'd love to hear the results...
Friz
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: scott r on June 01, 2005, 04:54:51 AM
I wish I could find the time, Ill bet it is amazing.  It appears as if Marco does not mess around.

Fritz, I'll second that motion.
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: JimBob on June 03, 2005, 06:02:38 PM
Has anyone tried this recipe yet?   ???
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough = semolina
Post by: JimBob on June 10, 2005, 11:01:40 PM
I'm going to give this one a whirl within the next 2 weeks. 

Pizzanapoletana,  what size pan are the 500-600g dough balls weighed out for???

Thanks.....



True Sicilian pizza is made with fine semolina flour.

I can give you a cross-mix of roman pizza and Sicilian pizza derived by my e-friends Gabriele of Pizzarium in Rome and Vincenzo of his father-in-law bakery in Caltanisetta, Sicily.

It involves a very time and effort consuming technique, but the results will be the best you will have in US.

1000g Fine Semolina Flour
750g Water
7g IDY
25g Sea Salt
50g EVO

In the morning when you wake up, mix the following as to make a poolish:
750g Semolina flour
750g Water (cold)
2g IDY
Then put everything in the fridge for 10-11 hours.


After that time, take it out of the fridge and add the remaining 250g Semolina and 5g IDY. mix well and when all the flour has been absorbed, add the salt and oil.

The dough at this point will be very sticky, but do not panic. Wait 15 minutes (covering the mixing bowl) and then "break" the dough and mix again. You will notice that the dough will seams like is drying a bit.

It may be necessary to repeat this process a couple of times until the dough will become less sticky.

Let it rest about an hour, then divide in portions of approximately 500-600g, and let it rest again 40 minutes to an hour in a warm place.

Once it has risen, flatten the dough, grease the baking tray, put the flat dough on it, put the topping and bake immediately.

Let me know the results...

Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: pizzanapoletana on June 11, 2005, 04:49:40 AM
about 50 x 35 cm. Do not use a rolling pin. Flatten by hand and then adjust it in the pan. The thickness should be about 1.5-2 cm (it wil double thanks to the oven spring).

Ciao
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: JimBob on June 11, 2005, 08:39:45 AM
Thank you sir.  :)
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: AKSteve on November 15, 2005, 08:24:57 AM
For a change, I tried a sicilian crust yesterday. I used the following recipe: http://recipes.robbiehaf.com/T/273.htm I did the final kneading in my mixer, 5 minutes on the lowest setting, 5 minute rest, and 5 minutes on medium-low. It was nice because this was a dough that was ready to go in the oven in just a few hours, whereas my Ny style doughs always sit in the fridge at least overnight. After the rise, I spread it out in a lightly oiled pan and let it sit for about a half an hour to rise a little in the pan and then I sauced it up. After it had sauce on it, I lifted it up one corner at a time and squirted olive oil underneath with a Turkey baster. Then I cooked it with just the sauce on it for 12 minutes. I took it out and put some cheese and toppings on and then cooked it for another 12-15 minutes until done. It was actually really good and really easy to make.


Steve
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: PizzaBrewer on November 16, 2005, 11:32:36 AM
Marco:  At what temperature and for how long do you bake this style of pizza?

Thanks!

---Guy
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: abc on December 14, 2005, 04:17:36 PM
Artale,

From what I have seen since being a member of this forum, not much has been done with Sicilian style pizzas. One of our members recently posted a recipe for Sicilian pizza that he found somewhere on the Internet (see http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1021.msg9105.html#msg9105), but if you are interested in one that Tom Lehmann of the American Institute of Baking recommends for professional pizza operators, I have posted below the list of ingredients and baker's percents. Unfortunately, the recipe doesn't give actual weights to be able to calculate the amount of dough you will need to make a particular size Sicilian pizza. But all is not lost. Some fairly standard pizza sizes and related dough ball weights are generally well known and can be used. They are as follows: 9'' (10 oz.), 10" (11 oz.), 12" (15-16 oz.), 14" (22 oz.), 15" (25 oz.), and 10" x 14" (22 oz.). If you decide you like Tom Lehmann's recipe and can decide on a size you'd like to make, let me know and I think I may be able to come up with a list of ingredients and amounts for you to try out. Generally, you should try to use a dark, anodized, well-seasoned pan to make a Sicilian pizza. Here is the information on Tom Lehmann's recipe (I can decipher the instructions if you need help):

Flour: 100% (11.5% protein, typical bread flour)
Salt: 2.5%
Olive oil: 5.0%
Yeast (as compressed) 2.0%
Water: 58.0% (+/-)

Targeted finished dough temperature: 75 to 80F. Scale, ball, box, oil the dough balls, cross stack in the cooler for 2 hours, down stack and nest dough boxes, use after 18 hours. Remove from cooler and allow to warm at room temperature for 60 to 90 minutes, press dough into oiled pans, allow to rise for about 40 minutes, or to give desired crust thickness. Bake at 525F. This also makes a pretty decent focaccia too.

As an alternative to the Lehmann recipe, you might also want to take a look at another Sicilian dough recipe, by Big Dave Ostrander, a colleague of Tom Lehmann's. Big Dave's recipe differs from Lehmann's recipe in a few ingredient particulars but the main difference is in the preparation techniques. The Big Dave Sicilian dough recipe is at http://www.pmq.com/cgi-bin/tt/index.cgi/read/1635. Don't worry about the PZ-44. That's a dough conditioner that you shouldn't need. If that recipe interests you, I can help you work out the particulars for your case if you don't have experience with using baker's percents.

A third possibility is this one: http://www.correllconcepts.com/Encyclopizza/05_Dough-making/10_dough_recipe.htm. You might want to consider the test pizza in the right-most column, although you will need to either weigh some of the ingredients or convert from weights to volume.

Peter


Pete, can you scale a recipe fitting a 12" by 18" rectangular, 1inch deep pan?

I just bought one, it has those rolled edges with the wire framed edge, heavy duty, heavy weighted, black in color.

I'm excited... but i'm not sure what surface the pan is... I saw a stack of pizza pans with the same finish... that is, I'm not sure if I should season it... right now i'm running the clean cycle on my oven, and wonder if I should coat this pan with some peanut oil and toss it in.  The pan came in a clear plastic bag but there are no markings, no branding anywhere..  looks like real restaurant stock.  they have square pans, 15 inch by 15 inch ones as well.  I decided on this rectangular one.

there was a older, rusted stack of pans below the stack from which I got this one, and there were sheets of xeroxed paper describing the pan and how it needs to remain dry and seasoned. 

the helper guy pointed to a stack of aluminum ones he said the one I was eyeing is non-stick.  i'm not sure he knows, he's not a cooking enthusiast.  i think it's an anodized finish.  I took a pic of it.

if it's a nonstick 'teflon' coating i don't want to put it as part of the oven cycle.  but i know from nonstick teflon pans, this baby doesn't feel like a nonstick coating.
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: Pete-zza on December 14, 2005, 05:56:16 PM
abc,

Let me take a look at what I wrote and the recipes again to see which of the recipes is translatable into something you can use in your new pan. It may be possible to come up with a dough weight for your size pan but I don't know offhand if your pan will be deep enough.

As for your pan, it sounds like it is an anodized aluminum pan. Depending on its coating, it may or may not need seasoning. It won't hurt, however, to coat the pan with a bit of vegetable oil and put it in a 425-450 degree F oven for about a half hour. I personally wouldn't use the oven clean cycle since that gets up to such a high temperature that I am not sure what it will do when the temperature exceeds the flash point of the oil. The high temperature might also damage the coating or cause other damage to the pan. From what you say, it doesn't sound like your coating is Teflon. If it is, I don't think I would use the oven clean cycle. At high temperatures, Teflon breaks down and can emit fumes that may well be toxic.

The old rusted pans you mentioned are most likely seasoned bare metal pans without coatings. The have to remain dry and seasoned to work well.

Peter
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: abc on December 14, 2005, 06:59:47 PM
thanks... i guess it starts with a 12 by 18 inch pan has x amount of square inches would be the equivalent to a recipe of a y diameter round pie, then double or triple the thickness?... = the weight of the doughball needed.
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: Pete-zza on December 14, 2005, 07:58:35 PM
abc,

Actually, the way you calculate the required amount of dough is the same as with a round pizza but you use the square inches for a rectangular (or square) Sicilian pan, along with the recommended thickness factor (TF). So, in your case, the required amount of dough is equal to 18" x 12" x TF, where TF has a typical value for Sicilian ("thick") style of 0.12-0.13. In one case, noted in my post from which you quoted, Dave Ostrander recommended a dough weight for a 10" x 14" pan of 22 ounces. That translates to a thickness factor TF of 0.157. I personally think the 0.157 number is too high, given that Big Dave recommends 0.12-0.13 for the Sicilian style. But, it's up to you. I think I can convert any one of the three recipes to fit your pan, with any thickness factor you prefer. If you'd like to revisit the three recipes, I will try to give you the amounts of ingredients to use for the recipe you'd like to start with. Just let me know which one and what thickness factor you would like to use. Keep in mind at the same time that the Lehmann recipe and the Ostrander recipe use different processing of the dough to make the Sicilian pizzas.

I also went to the pizzatools.com website to check on typical pan depths for Sicilian. The depths of the Sicilian pans sold by pizzatools.com are 1 1/2 to 2 inches. Big Dave recommends 2 inches. However, I think a dough ball using a thickness factor of 0.12-0.13 should work with your 1-inch deep pan. For example, looking at the Correll Concepts formulation and using a thickness factor of 0.12 will yield a dough ball weight of around 26 ounces. That's about the weight of dough for a fairly thick 16-inch NY style or a thin 18-inch NY style. Using thickness factors of 0.13 and 0.157 will mean dough ball weights of around 28 ounces and 34 ounces, respectively.

As a footnote, I might add that some bakers actually prefer bromated flours for the Sicilian style. Potassium bromate is an oxidizing agent that strengthens the dough between the time that the dough is put into pans to proof and the time of baking. This results in a higher volume dough. I'm not recommending that you use the bromated flour, because bromates are suspected carcinogens and banned in many countries, but just mention it so you are aware of its significance in the Sicilian context.

Peter
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: abc on December 14, 2005, 08:28:23 PM
what can i say, Pete thanks again for punching in.  I'd really like to work with the Lehmann recipe and see how it comes out.

I don't know what the deal is with these 2" deep pans.  I'm in NYC my whole life and I've never seen a place use a pan with such a tall side wall.

They are all around 1", give or take .5"  They wouldn't be able to cut through with the wheel, they already slide in a spatula to lift the square to make the crust cut.

I'll go with your .12 to .13 thickness factor.  Years ago I made a potato based scillian and I loved squares as high as I could find, but these days I'd like something with a little less carbs and more artisan.

DiFara's bottom tastes of olive oil and garlic powder.  It's very very good.  It's less thick than the 'generic' NYC pizzerias, while more crispy and charred on the bottom.  So rustic looking, and the toppings are sooo aromatic.
 
But I think some people would actually consider Difara's squares to be burnt.

I seasoned my new pan already, boy does it get hot!  holding that heat.  It will be interesting using this pan for the first time, when I get a chance, perhaps this weekend.
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: Pete-zza on December 14, 2005, 09:28:40 PM
abc,

Here you go.

Assuming a thickness factor of 0.13, the amount of dough you will need for your 18" x 12" pan is 18  x 12 x 0.13 = 28.08 ounces (796.08 g.).

The amounts of ingredients you will need are set forth in the recipe below. You will note that the Lehmann Sicilian dough recipe as originally posted calls for bread flour with a protein content of 11.7%. I usually use the King Arthur brand of bread flour, which has a protein content of 12.7%. Whatever bread flour you have on hand should work fine. You can even use a higher gluten flour if you'd like but if you do that you may want to increase the amount of water a bit. I did not convert the bread flour to volume measurements in the recipe posted below because I don't have any bread flour on hand at the moment. But you will note that the flour comes to a bit over a pound. I also converted the cake yeast called for in the Lehmann recipe to instant dry yeast (IDY), for convenience.

Lehmann Sicilian Dough Recipe for abc's 18" x 12" Pan
100%, Bread flour, 16.90 oz. (479.08 g.)
2.5%, Salt (table salt), 0.42 oz. (11.98 g.), (a bit over 2 1/8 t.)
5.0%, Olive oil, 0.85 oz. (23.95 g.), (1 T. plus 2 1/8 t.)
0.67%, Instant dry yeast (IDY), 0.11 oz. (3.21 g.), (a bit over 1 t.)
58%, Water, 9.80 oz. (277.86 g.), (1 /1/4 c.)
Total dough ball weight = 28.08 oz. (796.08 g.)
Thickness factor (TF) = 0.13

I would make the dough just like you have been making the Lehmann NY style dough. When you are ready to pan the dough, you may want to take a look at Big Dave's instructions for oiling the pan. You need a fair amount of oil to get that crispiness you seem to want. There's also no reason that I can see why you can't use Big Dave's instructions for using the dough rather than Tom L's if you think you'd like Big Dave's approach better.

Good luck and let us know how things turn out.

Peter
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: abc on December 14, 2005, 10:02:21 PM
lol 'abc's pan'...  thanks!  I think I still have some KA Bread Flour from having last used it before the summer.  Though it's getting a bit late tonight to whip up some dough.  You got it, I'll be reporting my efforts, least I could do for all you've put in.

You know, I was thinking one thing... a few years ago when I last had a period of time where i dabbled with square pies, even before using a potato infused recipe, i had doughs that had a lot of rise after flattening it out into the square pan (recipes specifiying generous yeast amts).  I think it would either third or almost double if I remember, 2 hrs after stretching it out onto the square pan that I had at that time.

with this Lehmann dough, which doesn't even really rise in the fridge (so many recipes say 'rise until double') I do wonder how I should approach this.

The Lehmann dough should have a fridge rise of at least 24hrs, can we agree.  And I've aimed for 18 to 24hrs when making round pies.  Usually I mix it one night, bake it the next night for dinner.

I was thinking with respect to making a square pie, I would/should want to have as much of the 18 to 24hrs rising time done while the dough is 'plated' on my square pan...  something like 12 hrs doughball rise in fridge, 13th to 24th hrs plated rise on square pan... which would be room temp rise since i cant fit the tray into the fridge.
But I probably won't end up doing this, I'll follow how Lehmann instructs his recipe to be done.

I'm not sure how pizza places in NYC do their squares.  I see stacks of square pans seperated usually with wax/parchment paper.

Maybe they use 48hr-ish doughs, 1 business day as a ball rise, the 2nd day is a plated rise.


When I make round pies, if I let the Lehmann dough rise 24hrs in the fridge just like for a round pie, then plate it on the screen, it takes just a few min for it to relax... 45min of rest after this and I won't even see any rise as it's such a slow dough.

Your writeup of the Lehmann says:  "allow to rise for about 40 minutes, or to give desired crust thickness. Bake at 525F" after plating.

I guess the thicker dough and oven spring are the keys to my macro concern here.


With the round pie Lehmann dough I do take it out of the fridge and preheat the oven, make some toppings etc.  next thing i know, i've given the cold dough the recommended 60-90 min. to warm up some to room temp.

with the square pie, maybe I can save some time by plating it soon after taking it out of the fridge, then let it warm to room temp and rise while plated.
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: abc on December 23, 2005, 01:46:08 PM
here's my pan.  i've delayed my experiments because of the holidays.
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: enob on January 20, 2006, 01:39:41 PM
I'm confused
If i recall correctly most  Pizza operators in NY would use the same dough they used for their round pies, coat a square pan with olive oil, add dough and a light coat of Red sauce bake to risen. Then let cool for some time. At that point still in the same pan they would add additional additional sauce, cheese, any toppings and bake again? This is different from what you are describing.
When you say True Sicilian that not being NY style?
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: Ronzo on January 20, 2006, 02:54:53 PM
Where I come from in NY, Sicillian pie is much, MUCH thicker than a regular NY round pie. think of the thickness and density of Pizza Hut's Pan pizza, only thicker and a little 'fluffier' (and rectangular).

Even the NY pie places here in Austin that I go to make it that way.
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: abc on January 22, 2006, 01:02:35 AM
I'm confused
If i recall correctly most  Pizza operators in NY would use the same dough they used for their round pies, coat a square pan with olive oil, add dough and a light coat of Red sauce bake to risen. Then let cool for some time. At that point still in the same pan they would add additional additional sauce, cheese, any toppings and bake again? This is different from what you are describing.
When you say True Sicilian that not being NY style?

yes, me being in nyc... yes most of the run of the mill neighborhood pizza shops simply use the same dough as of their round pies, just more of it onto a square tray.
give it some rise time, and you got the typical 12 square slice square pie.

as good as they have been from since i was a child,
there are more artisan sicilian pies out there, just as there are more artisan round pies.

that's what i personally am striving for.
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: abc on February 13, 2006, 09:51:13 PM
Okay here's one pic of a sicilian i recently made based on earlier discussion.
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: scott r on February 14, 2006, 12:20:08 AM
Yes, Yes, Yes!

A true work of art.

Makes me miss Pittsburgh.
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: Pete-zza on February 14, 2006, 10:10:49 AM
abc,

Your pie looks great.

Did you use the Lehmann dough formulation and procedures as referenced in Reply #24 in this thread? Also, can you fill us in on how the process went and how you liked the pizza? I'd also be interested in the sauce you used. I know your fondness for the DiFara Sicilian pie so I hope that your pizza was satisfying nonetheless. Any advice would also be appreciated.

Peter
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: abc on February 17, 2006, 06:41:03 PM
Peter, I most certainly did utilize the formulation you computed for my black tray.

I had seasoned the pan over the past 6 wks or so, and last week when i was in the mood and had some KA bread flour I took on the task.

Sauce:
basically a can of tuttoroso (forgot exact spelling)  i had on the shelf, which was labelled as 'crushed' tomatoes became the source of my sauce.  I didnt like that their 'crushed' looks more like pureed tomatoes... either they misabled from the factory, my 12 can case, or they changed their product designated for 'crushed' because a few yrs ago crushed meant crushed with this brand.

Anyway, i had 2 fresh tomatoes that i mildly pulsed in to mix, so i can have a fresher brighter overall flavor.  i also finely pulsed in 1 very small onion, which i usually don't do.  Pulsed fresh basil as well... then some:  salt, sugar, oregano, thyme.  Then I coarse chopped a handful of garlic and tossed it into 1 minute heated olive oil, then poured this into the tomatoes and mixed, set it aside overnight.

Toppings:  pepperoni sliced from a Corando stick, briefly blanched to remove some grease and what I feel is excess salt/sodium.
Cheese, I blended 6 slices of Provolone with shredded Pollyo low moisture whole milk mozzarella, then freshly grated tad of Parmigiano Reggiano, then some oregano, then a bit of drizzled olive oil all over the pie.

Dough:  I had the dough in the fridge for about 8 hrs, then I oiled the pan with olive oil, dusted it with semolina, and handstretched the dough to fill the tray.  Wasn't very difficult a process.  Then I put the tray into my fridge and let it rise overnight... it was about 16 hrs after that, and about thusly 24hrs total, I took it out and let it rest on the counter for 3hrs. 

An hour before I put the dough into the oven I preheated it with my stone (though I don't think I really needed the stone).

I parbaked the dough with the tray of course, for about 5-6 min, took it out, topped with a substantial layer of sauce, put it in for about another 6 min, took it out and it was steaming...

Topped it with plenty of cheese and pepproni, then a final shot of more sauce, and a final back for about 5 min.  This time I used my broiler method to heat the top.

I have some more pics but they aren't great.  I had it on macro mode but i did a poor job of focusing.

It was a very good pizza.  It was very similar to a NY pizzaria kind of square, but the oil on the bottom aspect allowed it to be crispy and rich.

It's not the same as Difara because his is a different dough, and his finished crust bottom didn't have the look of having risen on the tray for a long time like regular pizzerias, mine included.  Maybe he doesn't bake his on a tray, i didn't see him make it! when I had it.   His is also a thinner dough.  Mine and the typical pizzeria NYC 5 borough square is about 3/4th of an inch high after parbaking.
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: Pete-zza on February 17, 2006, 07:20:25 PM
abc,

Thanks for the writeup. One of these days I will have to give the Sicilian a try. Maybe one of the recipes calling for semolina.

Peter
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough = semolina
Post by: babstinger on May 30, 2006, 04:15:16 PM
Silly question, but what is EVO ?

Thanks!


True Sicilian pizza is made with fine semolina flour.

I can give you a cross-mix of roman pizza and Sicilian pizza derived by my e-friends Gabriele of Pizzarium in Rome and Vincenzo of his father-in-law bakery in Caltanisetta, Sicily.

It involves a very time and effort consuming technique, but the results will be the best you will have in US.

1000g Fine Semolina Flour
750g Water
7g IDY
25g Sea Salt
50g EVO

In the morning when you wake up, mix the following as to make a poolish:
750g Semolina flour
750g Water (cold)
2g IDY
Then put everything in the fridge for 10-11 hours.


After that time, take it out of the fridge and add the remaining 250g Semolina and 5g IDY. mix well and when all the flour has been absorbed, add the salt and oil.

The dough at this point will be very sticky, but do not panic. Wait 15 minutes (covering the mixing bowl) and then "break" the dough and mix again. You will notice that the dough will seams like is drying a bit.

It may be necessary to repeat this process a couple of times until the dough will become less sticky.

Let it rest about an hour, then divide in portions of approximately 500-600g, and let it rest again 40 minutes to an hour in a warm place.

Once it has risen, flatten the dough, grease the baking tray, put the flat dough on it, put the topping and bake immediately.

Let me know the results...

Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: Pete-zza on May 30, 2006, 05:15:26 PM
babstinger,

EVO = EVOO = Extra Virgin Olive Oil.

You might also find our Pizza Glossary, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza_glossary.html, to come in handy in deciphering other acronyms.

Peter

Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: gschwim on September 28, 2006, 08:56:25 PM
JimBob,

Do you know the recipe for the photo of the Scilian pizza that accompanies your posts?

Gene
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: Pete-zza on September 28, 2006, 09:05:48 PM
Gene,

JimBob hasn't been active on the forum for some time but I am pretty certain the recipe is the one posted here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1535.msg13966.html#msg13966.

Peter
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: John39840 on October 01, 2006, 04:25:42 AM
This is such a cool topic. I'd even love to see Sicilian dough incorporated into the dough calculator. I might even make my very first Sicilian pie due to this thread.  :chef:
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: Pete-zza on October 01, 2006, 09:25:30 AM
John,

At the moment, the Lehmann dough calculator is not set up for rectangular pies but it can be used for round Sicilian pies, which some pizza operators make even though rectangular is the classic shape. However, it is possible to "fool" the tool to get the numbers for a rectangular pie. What you have to do is convert the surface area and thickness factor of the rectangular pie (length times width times a thickness factor, e.g., 0.13) into a round pie and play around with the thickness factor in the tool until you get the same dough weight as for the rectangular pie. For example, in the Lehmann dough recipe I posted in this thread if you solve for the square root of 28.08/(3.14159 x 0.13), you will get 8.3 for the equivalent radius, or 16.6 for the diameter. Since the tool works only for whole numbers for the pizza size, you would put either 16" or 17" in the pizza size box and play around with the thickness factor until you get close to 28.08 ounces total dough weigh in the table at the bottom of the tool . The tool will then give you the proper quantities for all the ingredients.

I haven't studied Marco's numbers for his Sicilian dough formulation carefully so I don't know whether this approach can be used with Marco's dough formulation but it should be possible with Big Dave's dough formulation in addition to the Lehmann one. If you get to the point where you decide to give one of the recipes a try I should be able to help you with the numbers.

Peter
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: gschwim on October 01, 2006, 11:57:30 AM
Another possibility, especially if you have a digital scale with tare ("zeroing") capability, is to (1) "zero" the scale, with the pan you want to use on it, (2) make an amount of dough that you are certain is more than you need, press it into the pan you want to use, take away the excess and then weigh the filled pan.  If you can't zero your scale, then take the dough out of the pan and weigh it separately.  Then use the resulting weight for future pies.
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: Pete-zza on October 01, 2006, 01:10:03 PM
Gene,

That approach will work but unless 1) you have baker's percents to begin with, or 2) if you don't have baker's percents, keep track of the actual quantities of all the ingredients used and the final dough weight and then use that data to calculate baker's percents and a thickness factor, you won't be able to accurately and consistently replicate the results again. Having baker's percents and a thickness factor takes away the need to use your approach.

Peter
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: Pete-zza on October 02, 2006, 12:31:53 PM
about 50 x 35 cm. Do not use a rolling pin. Flatten by hand and then adjust it in the pan. The thickness should be about 1.5-2 cm (it wil double thanks to the oven spring).

Marco,

I was studying your Sicilian dough formulation at Reply 6 more closely and noted from Reply 16 that the pan size you use is 50 cm. by 35 cm. That is equal to a pan that is 19.7" by 13.8", or roughly 20" by 14". If you are using 500-600 grams (17.7-21.2 oz.) of dough in that size pan, it would seem that the dough would be stretched out quite thin, quite a bit less than 1.5-2 cm (0.59-0.79"), and especially if 500 grams of dough is used. Did I get something wrong?

Also, can you describe the "fine semolina flour" with further detail? In the U.S., semolina flour is most often fairly coarse. Is fine semolina flour durum flour, as is often used to make pasta? I did a search and found this, http://chefshop.com/Itemdesc.asp?CameFrom=Search&CartId=104134-EVEREST-26ELGON34&ic=4732&tpc=&SR=, but I don't know if that is what you are talking about. Maybe this discussion at the theartisan.net site will also help: http://www.theartisan.net/sicilian_bread.htm.

Thank you, Marco.

Peter
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: pizzanapoletana on October 05, 2006, 12:31:34 PM
You stretch the dough, don't flatten it... Yes, is quite thin but that type of dough, will puff up... it is suppose to be light, not bready....

I actually think that the recipe I first supply will be too difficult to make without a high speed Spiral mixer. You can adjusting by changing the flour to 60% organic strong/high gluten wheat flour and 40% "Semola rimacinata di Grano Duro". In England the closest approx to it is Fine Semolina Flour (the other is coarse). Some pasta "semolina" are to coarse, but I have also seen some quite fine.

Ciao
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: tonymark on October 05, 2006, 01:16:01 PM
Why is the spiral mixer so important for your original recipe that Peter referenced?  Is this really just about gluten development.  Have you seen this type of dough mixed other ways?  Is it possible?  What is a good substitute mixing technique?

TM
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: pizzanapoletana on October 06, 2006, 04:53:01 PM
Tonymark, you have to take my word for it. I am not going into details sorry.

Ciao
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: tonymark on October 06, 2006, 11:10:07 PM
Tonymark, you have to take my word for it. I am not going into details sorry.

Ciao

SORRY, I don't think that answer is good enough.  Marco, I know you are a brilliant pizza maker/consultant, but you are telling me there is no way to hand knead or mix this type of dough.  Did they make this type of pizza 100 years ago?  If so, how did they do it without a fork, diving arms or spiral mixer?

You're not a details kind of guy.  I get it.  You are writing a book, but give us something here.  Hell, sell us your long overdue book.

TM
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: pizzanapoletana on October 07, 2006, 05:22:37 AM

I actually think that the recipe I first supply will be too difficult to make without a high speed Spiral mixer.

The note above is your answer. (difficult, if I read correctly is not impossible, and I said Spiral, not fork or others).

Make it by hand and then tell me how you went about it.... Anyway, is an evolution of the really ancient form of focaccia (almost liquid batter poured on a pan and cooked in an oven) but was only developed like that about 30 years ago in Rome...

SORRY, I don't think that answer is good enough.

Again if this answer doesn't satisfy you, there is nothing I can do about it. I am not in a competititon or trying to prove myself.

Thanks

Marco
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: CanuckJim on October 28, 2006, 02:44:39 PM
Marco,

This isn't an entry into the dough discussion, but it is a vivid memory of my early teenage years in Philadelphia, actually a nearby eighteenth century riverbank town called Manayunk ("Manny-unk").  Then, it was primarily inhabited by Sicilians.  There were several, probably highly illegal, wood-fired beehive ovens built on the backs of the row-houses.  These were used to bake the torpedo buns for Philadelphia-style cheesesteaks and hoagies served in places like Pat's in South Philadelphia.  But, rectangular Sicilian pizzas were also baked in these ovens, not for sale, necessarily, more for the baker's family.  I well remember driving down the communal laneway between these houses to visit one such bakery.  The pizza was baked in a rectangular pan, was quite chewy, about an inch and a half thick, topped with homemade tomato sauce and fresh oregano.  The pizza was first baked a bit, then the sauce went on, and it was baked a bit more.  The oregano was sprinkled on after it came out of the oven.  My recollection is that a square piece about six inches by six inches cost a quarter.

Jim
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: nepa-pizza-snob on November 01, 2006, 11:31:34 AM
Any of you New Yorkers (current residents or otherwise) ever been to Spumoni Gardens in Brooklyn? Now they
make a sicilian style pizza that I remember. Thick light, airy dough with a crispy bottom topped with a bit o magic!
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: joebot on November 07, 2006, 07:58:20 PM
abc,

Thanks for the writeup. One of these days I will have to give the Sicilian a try. Maybe one of the recipes calling for semolina.

Peter

Hey I tried the one  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1073.msg19680.html#msg19680 and substituted 25% semolina, and increased the hydration to 63% for kicks and giggles LOL ...came out real well, even though I just have an aluminum sheet pan and not a "real " sicillian pan  :-D thanks for the formula !
 
 have a good week !
 
 Joe
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: David on January 23, 2007, 10:21:46 PM
I took my first stab at Marco's 100% semolina method that is at the beginning of this thread.I followed his weights & measures and made it simply - just adorned with sea salt.It made enough dough to fill two standard jelly roll pans.It was refrigerated overnight and then left out at room temp for about six hrs.I very lightly coated the pan and dough with evoo.It was cookd in the pan on a stone for about 12 min.I took it out of the pan after it was almost done and placed it on the stone for about two mins.It had a nice crisp bite (not a crunch ) and was fairly light.I had to hazard a guess with the amount of yeast as my scale batteries just died.I probably should have had a little more.My wife gave it two thumbs up however.
            David
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: David on January 23, 2007, 10:42:22 PM
Here's the remainder of the second one that was made with Olives,Feta,Onions,San Marzanos,Oregano and EVOO.This was cooked longer and was crunchier due to that.I would have preffered it with oven dried toms,but I hadn't pre planned this in time.
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: pizzanapoletana on February 17, 2007, 06:45:42 AM
David, well done to you, I have just noticed those pictures.

Ciao
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: RoadPizza on May 14, 2007, 07:06:43 PM
Here's an old Sicilian recipe I found.  The ingredients are pretty interesting:

Sicilian Pizza

Ingredients:
5 qts.      Cold Water
7 qts.      Whole Milk
4-5 ozs.   Yeast
8 oz.      Salt
8 oz.      Sugar
50 lbs.      High Gluton Flour
3 lbs.      Block Butter
16 lbs.       Idaho Potatoes (Peeled, Boiled, & Mashed)

Method of Preparation:
Mix 9 minutes.
Cut & roll.

Yields: 45 32 oz. Dough Balls

Method of Cooking:
1)   Place in oven and bake at 550F.  Cooking time is approximately 10 – 15 minutes.  Sicilians are done when bottoms begin to brown.
2)   Remove from oven and allow to stand, in tray, at room temperature, to cool.
3)   Once cool, not warm, remove from tray and stack in the following manner:
Bottom Sicilian top up
Second Sicilian top down
Third Sicilian top up
Fourth Sicilian top down
   Continue in this manner.
   
NOTE: No more than 6 high, or you will crush bottom Sicilian.  Place in a plastic bag and refrigerate.  Sicilians should be prepared daily to ensure a fresh product.

Method of Serving:
1)   Take 1 Sicilian from refrigerator and place bottom side down in a clean, oiled Sicilian tray.
2)   Add 1 ladle of Pizza Sauce (10 oz.) and spread evenly over Sicilian.  Be certain to go right to the edge, (no crust), and include corners.
3)   Sprinkle with 16 oz. of Pizza Cheese.
4)   Bake until cheese begins to brown.

Portions Per Serving:
1)   1 Sicilian should be cut into 8 slices.
2)   Serve hot always.
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: MWTC on May 15, 2007, 12:25:32 PM
Here's an old Sicilian recipe I found.  The ingredients are pretty interesting:

Sicilian Pizza

Ingredients:
5 qts.      Cold Water
7 qts.      Whole Milk
4-5 ozs.   Yeast
8 oz.      Salt
8 oz.      Sugar
50 lbs.      High Gluton Flour
3 lbs.      Block Butter
16 lbs.       Idaho Potatoes (Peeled, Boiled, & Mashed)

Method of Preparation:
Mix 9 minutes.
Cut & roll.

Yields: 45 32 oz. Dough Balls

Method of Cooking:
1)   Place in oven and bake at 550F.  Cooking time is approximately 10 – 15 minutes.  Sicilians are done when bottoms begin to brown.
2)   Remove from oven and allow to stand, in tray, at room temperature, to cool.
3)   Once cool, not warm, remove from tray and stack in the following manner:
Bottom Sicilian top up
Second Sicilian top down
Third Sicilian top up
Fourth Sicilian top down
   Continue in this manner.
   
NOTE: No more than 6 high, or you will crush bottom Sicilian.  Place in a plastic bag and refrigerate.  Sicilians should be prepared daily to ensure a fresh product.

Method of Serving:
1)   Take 1 Sicilian from refrigerator and place bottom side down in a clean, oiled Sicilian tray.
2)   Add 1 ladle of Pizza Sauce (10 oz.) and spread evenly over Sicilian.  Be certain to go right to the edge, (no crust), and include corners.
3)   Sprinkle with 16 oz. of Pizza Cheese.
4)   Bake until cheese begins to brown.

Portions Per Serving:
1)   1 Sicilian should be cut into 8 slices.
2)   Serve hot always.


Peter,

Could/Would you convert this into bakers percents?

Seems interesting to me.  :)

MWTC  :chef:
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: November on May 15, 2007, 01:17:59 PM
Could/Would you convert this into bakers percents?
100.0000%   high-gluten flour
 32.0000%   potatoes, mashed
 30.1240%   milk, whole
 20.8635%   water
  6.0000%   butter
  1.0000%   salt
  1.0000%   sugar
  0.5625%   yeast (based on 4.5 oz)
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: November on May 15, 2007, 01:40:01 PM
I thought that maybe somebody might be interested in having this recipe converted to dry ingredients for easier portion management when preparing smaller batches.

100.0000%   high-gluten flour
 71.6128%   water
  7.7659%   potato flakes
  6.0000%   butter
  3.6088%   milk powder, whole fat
  1.0000%   salt
  1.0000%   sugar
  0.5625%   yeast
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: MWTC on May 15, 2007, 01:56:30 PM
Beautiful Red.November  ;D

Thank-you.

MWTC  :chef:
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: Pete-zza on May 15, 2007, 03:18:16 PM
MWTC,

My recollection from a couple of your prior posts is that you have been using potato flour, not potato flakes. As it so happens, Bob's Red Mill sells both potato flakes and potato flour. The potato flakes are made from dehydrated Idaho Russet potatoes, which fits nicely with the original recipe, plus mono and diglycerides from vegetable oil, and citric acid. The potato flour is made from 100% dehydrated potatoes, but the particular variety of potatoes used is not mentioned on the label.

Most baked goods that use potatoes, such as breads, buns, rolls, donuts, etc., tend to use potato flour, so I think you should be able to substitute the potato flour you have been using for potato flakes. The quantity you would use, however, would be different. This shouldn't be a problem if you are using baker's percents/weights. Also, since both potato flour and potato flakes appear to have the same moisture content (about 6.5%), I don't think you will have to alter the formula hydration.

You may have already noticed that you can get dehydrated potato flakes in the supermarket. However, most such products usually include sodium bisulfite, which is added to prevent discoloration of the potatoes. The downside of the sodium bisulfite, according to Tom Lehmann, is that the bisulfite interferes with yeast activity if used in a dough product. So, I would tend to go with the unadulterated kind, whether it is the Bob"s Red Mill or some other comparable brand.

Peter
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: MWTC on May 15, 2007, 03:27:29 PM
Peter,

Wow, you are a fount of knowledge, impressive.

Thank-you

MWTC  :chef:
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: November on May 15, 2007, 03:47:02 PM
The two reasons I didn't mention potato flour, even though I knew MWTC has been using it already, are that more people have access to potato flakes, and the texture and flavor made from one versus the other would be different.  Rehydrated from flakes, the mixture would be smooth yet have more body to it.  This is because flakes are made by drum-drying actual mashed potatoes.  Rehydrated from flour, the mixture would be more like paste.  Also, potato flour is made from the whole potato, skin and all.  The recipe calls for "Peeled, Boiled, & Mashed" potatoes.  The only potato flakes I've seen seem to be made from peeled potatoes.  The subtle difference is apparent in the color.

If using potato flakes, definitely go with a brand that has as few a number of ingredients as possible.

- red.november
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: MWTC on May 15, 2007, 03:51:16 PM
Red.November

What would be the bakers percent for 100% pure potato flour for the recipe?

MWTC  :chef:
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: November on May 15, 2007, 03:59:10 PM
MWTC,

As Peter remarked, there would be no difference in how much you use.  I was only pointing out that there would be a texture difference.

- red.november
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: MWTC on May 15, 2007, 04:19:02 PM
Red.November

Peter wrote "The quantity you would use, however, would be different." thats why I asked what would be the percent. He said I could subtitute one for the other but as stated in the quote...

MWTC  :chef:
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: November on May 15, 2007, 04:21:16 PM
This shouldn't be a problem if you are using baker's percents/weights. Also, since both potato flour and potato flakes appear to have the same moisture content (about 6.5%), I don't think you will have to alter the formula hydration.

MWTC,

The above quote is what is relevant in your case since you're using baker's percentages.

EDIT: If Peter wasn't referring to volume quantity differences, then he would be wrong (assuming an equal weight of "potato" is used in either case), but I believe Peter meant there would be a quantity difference if measuring by volume because of the difference in product form.
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: Pete-zza on May 15, 2007, 04:38:16 PM
MWTC,

Yes, I was referring to the volumes being different. I should have been clearer on that point.

I might also add that I agree that, as between potato flakes and potato flour, the better choice for the recipe in question would be the flakes version, for the reasons noted by me and November. In my case, I couldn't find the flakes in any of the stores where I shop, although I found the potato flour (Bob's Red Mill), and it wasn't all that important to me at the time to order the flakes version to be shipped to me. I subsequently ended up with potato flour that I purchased along with other items from an online source of baking products. And that source didn't carry the flakes. I thought of using the supermarket potato flakes, and to increase the amount of yeast to compensate for the sodium bisulfite effects, but never got around to doing that.

In any event, I think it is terrific to have a "dry" version as proposed by November. In fact, with that version, I think you should be able to use the new Expanded Dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html. Just enter the baker’s percents for the dry milk in either of the two dry milk boxes and enter the potato flakes/potato flour baker’s percent in the potato flour box. Just be sure to use only the weights in the output data for these two items, not the volumes. Of course, you will need to have a particular starting dough weight in mind to use the tool. Or, alternatively, you can try using a thickness factor like 0.12-0.13, which seems to be typical of a Sicilian style dough, and make the other entries called for by the calculator.

Peter
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: MWTC on May 15, 2007, 04:39:57 PM
OK, thanks for the clarification. That makes sense, just wanted to be sure.  :-\

MWTC  :chef:
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: November on May 15, 2007, 05:15:41 PM
Peter,

If you're worried about the yeast being affected by the bisulfite (which it certainly will in sufficient quantities), you can always in advance perform an autolyse-like procedure of hydrating the potato flakes in the formula water and add just a small amount of vinegar.  The acetic acid in the vinegar will react with any sodium bisulfite to neutralize it.  In the process, sulfur dioxide will be released.  If you can't detect a foul odor (sulfur dioxide is pretty strong) from the reaction, there probably isn't enough in there to cause much damage to the yeast.  If you can detect it, just wait until it stops smelling and proceed as normal.

If I knew exactly how much sodium bisulfite gets added to the brand of potato flakes in your supermarket, I could tell you exactly how much vinegar to add.  If one uses "breadmaker" yeast that has ascorbic acid included, one shouldn't have to worry as much about the bisulfite.

- red.november
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: beanapsmom on August 10, 2007, 07:44:46 AM
New to this forum and have a question.

We visited Sicily last year, Castellammare del Golfo, and the pizza was out of this world.  My husband said that it was just like his grandmother use to make.  The pizza was more like the post from CanuckJim October 2006 - chewy - inch and a half thick with just sauce on it.  We had many variations of this in Sicily and I would love to recreate this dough.  I will continue to search this forum but so far I haven't seen anything similar.  If there is something I missed. point me in the right direction.

Thanks,
Valerie
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: DaveH on August 22, 2007, 11:00:12 PM
Visited Mama Lucia's this past weekend (Wood St.) in downtown Pittsburgh. The Sicilian pizza was very good but don't look around the shop!
Cleanliness isn't one of their strong points!

I did, however, enjoy the pizza (and the Primanti Brothers the next day). I'm inspired to try Sicilian again. My dough doesn't rise as much though...
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: BrickStoneOven on December 23, 2009, 11:10:02 PM
Can someone put Marcos semolina recipe into percents please.
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: Matthew on December 24, 2009, 07:07:25 AM
Can someone put Marcos semolina recipe into percents please.


1000g Fine Semolina Flour 100%
750g Water                         75%
7g IDY                                . 7%
25g Sea Salt                       2.5%
50g EVO                                5%

If you attempt it, let me know how it turns out.  I'm going to make it this weekend.  I'm still undecided on whether I'm doing it Sicilian style or roman style.

Matt
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: BrickStoneOven on December 24, 2009, 09:32:25 AM
I'm not doing it this week but I will be doing it the week after. I have to make a bunch of pizza's for my neigbor and she is going to pay me ;D. I have wanted to try this out for the past couple weeks. I will definatly post pictures. I have GM semolina #1 can I use that, or is there a finer semolina like the fineness of a flour?
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: Matthew on December 24, 2009, 10:07:40 AM
I'm not doing it this week but I will be doing it the week after. I have to make a bunch of pizza's for my neigbor and she is going to pay me ;D. I have wanted to try this out for the past couple weeks. I will definatly post pictures. I have GM semolina #1 can I use that, or is there a finer semolina like the fineness of a flour?

You must use Semolina di grano duro rimacinata (Re-ground Hard Wheat Semolina) which is of similar consistency to flour & used for pizza, focaccia, & pasta.
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: BrickStoneOven on December 24, 2009, 12:07:39 PM
So basically you are saying I can't use my Gm Semolina #1 for this. Where can I buy that semolina from I know for a fact the supermarkets near me don't have it, would Whole Foods have it?
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: Matthew on December 24, 2009, 12:54:56 PM
So basically you are saying I can't use my Gm Semolina #1 for this. Where can I buy that semolina from I know for a fact the supermarkets near me don't have it, would Whole Foods have it?

I'm not familiar with this product so I can't say for certain.  Your best bet would be to contact them & find out.  Do you have any Italian supermarkets/bakeries in your area?  If so, that would be your best bet.  I'm not sure if whole foods carries it, but it's worth a try.

Matt
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: UnConundrum on December 24, 2009, 01:08:49 PM
You could always go mail order...

http://7streetmarketplace.com/Moretti-Fine-Semolina-Flour/M/B000RLUNCM.htm
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: widespreadpizza on December 24, 2009, 02:11:55 PM
So basically you are saying I can't use my Gm Semolina #1 for this. Where can I buy that semolina from I know for a fact the supermarkets near me don't have it, would Whole Foods have it?

yes,  I have tried using the gm #1 and while it will kind of work,  it just isn't the right texture.  I have heard of people using golden durum atta flour as a substitute as it is mostly durum wheat flour with a little bran in it. -marc
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: BrickStoneOven on December 24, 2009, 04:18:04 PM
Does anyone know where I can buy this stuff at a store in MA, I don't feel like ordering it off line.
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: widespreadpizza on December 24, 2009, 06:39:08 PM
BSO,  I got mine,  big bag mind you 50# at ok bakers supply in ludlow mass.  It was only 21 dollars.  Scott R  told me about them years ago,  but they no longer carry the unbromated all trumps,  which is why he found them in the first place.  marc
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: BrickStoneOven on December 24, 2009, 09:58:15 PM
WideSpread since you have used the Semolina #1 can I just grind it down to a fine powder like a flour or no. I have been on the internet for like 30 minutes trying to find Italian food stores or places that sell the Semolina di grano duro and can't find anything. I found one place but I don't know if they will have it I will have to try on Monday when they open.
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: LizzieTheChef on March 20, 2010, 12:44:30 PM
abc,

Here you go.

Assuming a thickness factor of 0.13, the amount of dough you will need for your 18" x 12" pan is 18  x 12 x 0.13 = 28.08 ounces (796.08 g.).

The amounts of ingredients you will need are set forth in the recipe below. You will note that the Lehmann Sicilian dough recipe as originally posted calls for bread flour with a protein content of 11.7%. I usually use the King Arthur brand of bread flour, which has a protein content of 12.7%. Whatever bread flour you have on hand should work fine. You can even use a higher gluten flour if you'd like but if you do that you may want to increase the amount of water a bit. I did not convert the bread flour to volume measurements in the recipe posted below because I don't have any bread flour on hand at the moment. But you will note that the flour comes to a bit over a pound. I also converted the cake yeast called for in the Lehmann recipe to instant dry yeast (IDY), for convenience.

Lehmann Sicilian Dough Recipe for abc's 18" x 12" Pan
100%, Bread flour, 16.90 oz. (479.08 g.)
2.5%, Salt (table salt), 0.42 oz. (11.98 g.), (a bit over 2 1/8 t.)
5.0%, Olive oil, 0.85 oz. (23.95 g.), (1 T. plus 2 1/8 t.)
0.67%, Instant dry yeast (IDY), 0.11 oz. (3.21 g.), (a bit over 1 t.)
58%, Water, 9.80 oz. (277.86 g.), (1 /1/4 c.)
Total dough ball weight = 28.08 oz. (796.08 g.)
Thickness factor (TF) = 0.13

I would make the dough just like you have been making the Lehmann NY style dough. When you are ready to pan the dough, you may want to take a look at Big Dave's instructions for oiling the pan. You need a fair amount of oil to get that crispiness you seem to want. There's also no reason that I can see why you can't use Big Dave's instructions for using the dough rather than Tom L's if you think you'd like Big Dave's approach better.

Good luck and let us know how things turn out.

Peter

Yikes! I just tried this recipe out and all I have in my mixer is a bunch of flakes of dough, it is very tough and won't come together really.. Is that amount of water correct? Wanted to try a different pizza recipe...
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: Pete-zza on March 20, 2010, 01:16:00 PM
Is that amount of water correct?

Yes, it is correct. Are you using the weight measurement for the water or the volume measurement?

Peter
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: LizzieTheChef on March 20, 2010, 01:50:39 PM
I used the volume measurement. Stupid question, would 9.8oz be the same as 9.8 fl.oz? From the results I got it seems like the answer is no. I am going to check right now. Thanks for the quick reply Pete! You are my favorite poster here :-)

edit I just checked, it is a little less than 1 1/4c water.Either way that dough is really messed up right now, so I will start another one regardless. Over a pound of flour just seems like it is a lot.
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: Pete-zza on March 20, 2010, 02:20:29 PM
LizzieTheChef,

9.8 ounces of water by weight is technically 1.17 cups (9.8/8.345). To use the volume measurement, you would place the measuring cup on a flat surface and read the marking at eye level, using the bottom meniscus. When is the last time that you have seen anyone measure out water that way? I just measured out 9.8 ounces of water (by weight) and it was just shy of 1 1/4 cups in my two-cup Pyrex measuring cup.

In general, when I find that the dough is drier than it should be, or I think it should be, I just add more water, generally a half-teaspoon at a time, until I am satisfied that the dough is OK from a hydration standpoint.

The recipe you tried is a commercial recipe. That is why the hydration level is lower than you might have expected. The lower hydration level makes it easier for workers to handle the dough. In a home environment, you can use more water if you'd like. With bread flour, you should be able to use up to 62% without any problems. Many people go even higher than that with a Sicilian style, at the risk of making the dough somewhat harder to handle because it will be quite wet and want to stick to everything.

Peter
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: HoosierPizzaGuy on March 10, 2021, 08:40:15 PM
Is there a different flour mixture when it comes to making
square pizza.  Does anyone have a recipe for making it?

Attached:
The Dough Dr's recipe converted for the Scale / Home Baker.
Title: Re: Sicilian Dough ????
Post by: HoosierPizzaGuy on March 10, 2021, 09:07:55 PM
Attached:
The Dough Dr's recipe converted for the Scale / Home Baker.

NOTE: 30 g yeast is Fresh Compressed Yeast!
If using Active Dry Yeast use 10 grams.