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Author Topic: How I make my NP dough  (Read 308213 times)

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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #780 on: December 03, 2020, 08:40:12 AM »
Hey Craig -- Just following up on my previous query regarding the fragility of the dough when stretching. I had at it again but haven't had time to post. I tried in balls for ~12 hours and it was still pretty similar, hard to work with. Seems the gluten development is just not as strong as I find with ADY. I admittedly had a bit of trouble keeping a steady temp in the bulk -- started too cold, around 61F but warmed up from there - I would say the avg was around 65F when all said and done, before I balled and started to warm up further (high 60s, low 70s) before launch.

My starter is quite strong when I mix, so perhaps it's my method. Would an increase in mix time help? Perhaps I'm not balling tight enough...? I realize it's hard for you to say without seeing but anything else you can think of? Pics below start with the end of bulk, then dough ball activity before launch (looks quite active), then the finished product.

I am thinking of adding a bit of ADY the next time so that it's not such a struggle, though I know I may get shunned for that around these parts!

If you're only doing a total of 12h fermentation, you might try kneading more. My guess is that your starter is particularly strong when it comes to producing enzymes and/or acids that are breaking down the dough. If that's the case, there isn't much you can do with it.
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Offline levity03

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #781 on: December 03, 2020, 09:56:02 AM »
To clarify -- it's a 48hr fermentation total. I started at 24hr bulk, 24hr balled, and had a similar result so you mentioned earlier in the thread trying to keep them in balls for just 12 hrs (36hr bulk), which is what I'm referring to.

It could be the same issue, I suppose -- perhaps I should scale down my starter to flour/H20 ratio. I'm usually doing 20-30g starter to 100g flour/H20 during feedings. Can give 10g starter a go. Will also try more kneading.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #782 on: December 03, 2020, 02:36:43 PM »
To clarify -- it's a 48hr fermentation total. I started at 24hr bulk, 24hr balled, and had a similar result so you mentioned earlier in the thread trying to keep them in balls for just 12 hrs (36hr bulk), which is what I'm referring to.

It could be the same issue, I suppose -- perhaps I should scale down my starter to flour/H20 ratio. I'm usually doing 20-30g starter to 100g flour/H20 during feedings. Can give 10g starter a go. Will also try more kneading.

At 48 hours, your gluten will fully develop with almost no kneading. My guess is gluten degradation from the starter. Some starters just don't work for pizza. We see this here every so often. Maybe cut the starter WAY back and use IDY/ADY for most of the rise and then work up the SD and down the IDY/ADY until you find the sweet spot.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline levity03

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #783 on: December 03, 2020, 03:38:35 PM »
Interesting. I may order an Ischia culture to see if that improves my results. Thanks for your help.

Offline sk

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #784 on: December 04, 2020, 02:50:27 PM »
It actually looks pretty good to me.  I'm not sure exactly what fault you are finding.  Dough made with SD is defnitely sometimes a bit more tender than dough made with IDY.  Treat it with care and the taste will be worth the effort.
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Offline icebob

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #785 on: December 07, 2020, 04:42:46 PM »
First try with sourdough, followed Craig's recipe from 1st page with 1.8% Ischia starter, 36hrs bulk, 12 balled @65~66f in the basement.Didn't have any caputo blue left so I used  Tony Gemignaniís ďCalifornia ArtisanĒ Type 00 Pizza Flour. Not bad for a first. Deck was @ ~900f and cooked in around 65/70 seconds,forgot to take a pic of the bottom... My frikkin S20 phone always get that orange tint when taking pics inside, they were not that dark! will go at it again next week-end...

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #786 on: December 07, 2020, 04:49:00 PM »
Very nice!
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline levity03

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #787 on: December 07, 2020, 05:03:24 PM »
That's a beautiful looking pie!

May I ask where folks are purchasing their Ischia starter from?

Offline 02ebz06

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #788 on: December 07, 2020, 05:36:06 PM »
Sourdo.com
Bruce here... My cooking toys --> FGM 800-B Pizza Oven, Pellet Grill, Pellet Smoker, Propane Griddle, Propane Grill

Offline George_M

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #789 on: December 08, 2020, 03:54:38 PM »
My delicious pizza!



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Offline Bogy

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #790 on: January 06, 2021, 02:39:29 AM »
Hi Craig, I'm very impressed by your topics about using sourdough in make NP pizza and that encourages me to try using it instead of commercial yeast and I thank you a lot for that.

I read before you ferment your dough at 18C, then you ferment it now at 62F +/-2 (as 16-18C) . and I like to know your opinion about two things
1- Do you find more flavor and more aroma in the dough at 62F ?!

2- What about your FDT (final dough temperature) ?!
    What about making FDT=62F as the same fermentation temperature?!


Thank you again
« Last Edit: January 06, 2021, 02:47:05 AM by Bogy »

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #791 on: January 06, 2021, 02:59:24 AM »
1) Yes. I've experimented <60F and >90F, and in the mid 60's is where I'm the happiest.

2) Never really paid attention to FDT.
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Offline Bogy

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #792 on: January 06, 2021, 02:05:32 PM »
1) Yes. I've experimented <60F and >90F, and in the mid 60's is where I'm the happiest.

2) Never really paid attention to FDT.

Thank you a lot

Offline Paulo

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #793 on: January 10, 2021, 10:31:14 AM »
Hey guys, I'm new to the forum, my name is Paulo, I'm from Brazil and I have been making neapolitan style pizza in my home oven for almost a year now. I am amazed by the pictures shared, but I was wondering if any of you can give me some tips on how to get some leopard in a home oven (if that is possible) and big bubbles in the corniccione for example. Thank you!

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #794 on: January 10, 2021, 11:48:19 AM »
Hey guys, I'm new to the forum, my name is Paulo, I'm from Brazil and I have been making neapolitan style pizza in my home oven for almost a year now. I am amazed by the pictures shared, but I was wondering if any of you can give me some tips on how to get some leopard in a home oven (if that is possible) and big bubbles in the corniccione for example. Thank you!

These can give you some guidance, however unless you have an abnormally powerful broiler, it can be difficult without making dangerous oven modifications.

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=10024.0
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11654.0

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Offline Paulo

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #795 on: January 10, 2021, 02:30:08 PM »
These can give you some guidance, however unless you have an abnormally powerful broiler, it can be difficult without making dangerous oven modifications.

Thanks! Just to give some context:
My dough is:
- 100% flour
- ~68% water
- 2% salt
- 1% fresh yeast

After a 20 min kneading section (recommended by an Enzo Coccia video if I'm not mistaken), I let it rest for 8 to 10 hours in room temperature, then I form the dough balls and place them in individual plastic containers for 4 to 6 more hours.

How can I improve the recipe so that the bubbles get bigger for example?

« Last Edit: January 10, 2021, 02:37:34 PM by Paulo »

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #796 on: January 10, 2021, 03:23:42 PM »
It's not so much about the formula is it is the heat which is hard to duplicate. A suitably thick steel plate high in the oven combined with the broiler is where I'd start.
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Offline Paulo

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #797 on: January 10, 2021, 04:24:14 PM »
Nice, thank you very much!

Offline Caaleb

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #798 on: January 18, 2021, 04:40:27 AM »
Hi Craig. Iíd first like to thank you for what you have done on this forum. You are an inspiration to me and many many others.

After many attempts at cold fermenting and not getting much flavor, I stumbled upon this recipe. You argument for not cold fermenting SD makes total sense to me. I make a 3-4ish min NY Neapolitan ish hybrid pizza in my ooni koda 16.

I converted you recipe to be a bit more ny by using mostly malted flour and 1.5% oil.

100% flour 800g (700g KA AP, 94g unmalted high gluten 14% BF, 4g rye)
65% water (not sure why I went so high?)
3% salt
1.3% ischia culture
1.5% evoo

Starter came from fridge was fed 1:4:4 and over doubled, hadnít started falling. Didnít float? I made the dough exactly like you said, except I used slight hotter water accidentally. The FDT was 71 degrees. Tried to keep it at around 65 degrees, but it wasnít perfect. (I have a room thermometer coming tomorrow to help). After 24 hours bulked at more or less 60-65 it rose only about a cm. When I went to ball they felt wonderful! Not too wet at all. Barley sticky.

Iíve attached a picture of them after balling. They were at about 60-65 degrees for 8 hours. When I woke up they had flattened a lot. Flatter than Iíve ever had any dough ball. I knew something was up. I continued to proof them but determined they were going to slow so I put them in a 90 degree oven twice for about 15 minutes.

When I went to open them they felt like they had no gluten. The middle thinned out of very easily and all the dough seemed to bunch in the crust. I couldnít pick the dough up without misshaping it. It tore extremely easily. I baked them and I got a little bit of oven spring. Not a ton. The flavor of the dough was wonderful! Not sour at all, but almost buttery. Very flavorful.

Iíve found others with seemingly very similar issues using this method. I think my starter has to much enzyme and acid production, or the dough was very overproofed. I have had this happen once before with the gluten where I definitely over proofed some room temp sourdough. I than went to a cold fermented recipe. I had no problems with that dough, it handled beautifully but had no fermented flavor. Another issue could be lack of consistent feeding of my starter. I feed different amounts and skip days sometimes. I will fix that. Or maybe I just needed to develop more gluten in my dough?

The high gluten flour I have is from Carinsprings, called glacier peak. Itís 13-14%. It was recommended by Anthony Falco and is milled just 39 minutes from me which is why I wanted to try it. I think it has caused more issues for me so Iím going to go back to KA AP. But it could be helpful in creating more gluten for this dough.

I understand I went off the path a lot. I also should have taken more pictures. Iím going to make this dough tomorrow with all KA AP flour, 62% hydration and document everything. Iím determined to make this formula work, even if it means getting a new starter.

Thank you.






Offline TXCraig1

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Re: How I make my NP dough
« Reply #799 on: January 18, 2021, 06:42:38 AM »
Mine get pretty flat too.

I'd suggest trying

62%
3% salt
2% culture
no EVOO

Keep the temp the same. Ball after 36 hours.
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