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Offline Martino1

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Re: In search of the Vietnamese Baguette
« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2011, 08:31:56 PM »
http://www.banhmibistro.com/news_details.php?id=15

Will drop by this "gourmet banh mi" this week end.
Could it be that rice flour is added ? Acc. To oxford dict where banh mi has entered as a word in English...
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Offline DocSpine

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Re: In search of the Vietnamese Baguette
« Reply #21 on: October 27, 2011, 11:22:55 PM »
Ok so now I cant make it till tomorrow without making a snack. My beggars cant be choosers Bahn Mi : I had some Sams Hogie rolls that I toasted up slightly to get some crunch on the skin, I took some frozen meatballs and sauced them with Hoisin till warm, added some carrot/ daikon, cilantro, jalapeno slices. Closest thing I can get since I am house sitting in Springfield MO.
I cant wait to head back to Dallas and get my fix.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: In search of the Vietnamese Baguette
« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2011, 11:47:35 PM »
Nice work Martino.  I can't wait to see what other info you can unearth.   Thanks for the clarification on the sauces,  I forgot that the dipping sauce is also called nouc mam ngot.   I'll have to ask my dad if the dipping sauce is called by different names in the North versus the South, sometimes it is.

Yes you are also right about the Maggi seasoning sauce (soy sauce) as that is the one I grew up with.  I didn't even know about Kikoman until I was in college.  But yes, the kikoman is cheap and easy to give out, so a lot of places just opt for that. 

The very best banh mi I've eaten were from a little bakery in Fresno, Cali run by Thai people.  It was kind of funny since they made better banh mi sandwiches than all the Vietnamese restaurants around town.   :-D

Well tonight's baguette attempt was a failure again.  :(  I may have to try and offer free work at one of these deli's to learn how to make baguettes.

Doc Spine, one of the local Vietnamese restaurants that sell sandwiches in Albuquerque also uses the long hoagie rolls from Sams Club.  Toasted up, it's close enough and just as good.   I'm not quite sure why I don't just go that route.   ???  All this talk of banh mi.  Hmmm, I haven't made any in a long while.  I need to get on it. 

Offline Martino1

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Re: In search of the Vietnamese Baguette
« Reply #23 on: October 28, 2011, 01:07:42 AM »
Asked my staff to their amusement ;)
one of them has an uncle which had a bakery so she will inquire about the ingredients, baking time etc. The vietnamese I ask (incl. My wife) would not know the ingredients, baking time and all that details and of course they wonder why I wanna know, if the original is widely available, hehe. Of course they do not share the passion i have to reproduce any great eat i have encountered, including pizza, banh mi, cao lau noodle dish, special german simmered weisswurst sausage. It seems as if the bakeries would be hesitant to share their secrets and the "users" or banh mi ladies have no clue  :-\

I will hopefully start baking soon and my goal is to reproduce those great bavarian pretzels. Crispy outside, moist inside. i really seem to like this sensation in whatever i eat. (pizza, banh mi etc.). Ok back to work
Pizza is the only dish perfect for breakfast, lunch, tea, dinner, late night snack ;-)

Offline Martino1

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Re: In search of the Vietnamese Baguette
« Reply #24 on: October 28, 2011, 01:51:43 AM »
Nice work Martino.  I can't wait to see what other info you can unearth.   Thanks for the clarification on the sauces,  I forgot that the dipping sauce is also called nouc mam ngot.   I'll have to ask my dad if the dipping sauce is called by different names in the North versus the South, sometimes it is.

Yes you are also right about the Maggi seasoning sauce (soy sauce) as that is the one I grew up with.  I didn't even know about Kikoman until I was in college.  But yes, the kikoman is cheap and easy to give out, so a lot of places just opt for that. 

I find kikkoman very salty. The sauce here is just called nuoc tuong dau nanh (soy sauce) but tastes like you take maggi and dilute it 50:50 with light soy sauce, cause the maggi seasoning is also quite salty, but has the taste for banh mi (a bit of msg)

The very best banh mi I've eaten were from a little bakery in Fresno, Cali run by Thai people.  It was kind of funny since they made better banh mi sandwiches than all the Vietnamese restaurants around town.   :-D
In the battleofbanhmi they list other banh mi in albuquerque, maybe it helps

Well tonight's baguette attempt was a failure again.  :(  I may have to try and offer free work at one of these deli's to learn how to make baguettes.

Doc Spine, one of the local Vietnamese restaurants that sell sandwiches in Albuquerque also uses the long hoagie rolls from Sams Club.  Toasted up, it's close enough and just as good.   I'm not quite sure why I don't just go that route.   ???  All this talk of banh mi.  Hmmm, I haven't made any in a long while.  I need to get on it. 

What don't you like abt your attempt ? Crust to thick or dense, too chewy, sound  ;) ?
Did you try adding rice flour and a bit more sugar, maybe ?
Pizza is the only dish perfect for breakfast, lunch, tea, dinner, late night snack ;-)

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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: In search of the Vietnamese Baguette
« Reply #25 on: October 28, 2011, 02:05:47 AM »
I didn't add rice flour tonight.  The rice flour I have is very coarse.  I tried one of the recipes I linked to in the first post which calls for using cooked rice and cooking it again in water to make a porridge (chao).  Then using that as part of the levain, but that bread came out too dense.

Tonight's attempt was without rice or rice flour but a weak AP flour, IDY, bit of oil, salt, and sugar.  The crust was thin and crunchy but not thin enough.  Also the crumb was a bit too dense, and not light.  I still need a lot of practice with my baguettes and likely making many mistakes along the way.

I made a bread once that had a soft inside with a thin crust.  I'll have to try and study that recipe and see if I can get some clues about what I did.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12022.0.html

Chau


Offline Martino1

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Re: In search of the Vietnamese Baguette
« Reply #26 on: October 31, 2011, 11:18:15 PM »
Dear Chau,
how is the progress  ;) ?

As I asked one of my staff to inquire about a recipe she gave me this :
(Unfortunately not really the bakers preciseness, maybe some facts are useful.) You can scale down as usual.

- 8 kg wheat flour (please refer to the brand "Bot Binh Dong" as linked below. Choose the different flours. the ones with the sailing ship label, seem to be listed as banh mi flour. Protein between 10% and 11%.)
http://www.botmibinhdong.vn/products/en
http://www.binhdongflour.com.vn/view/31/vn
- 80g Yeast (compressed or IDY I do not know). This would result in 1% Yeast. Seems plausible, considering the short fermentation:
- Egg Yellow (sorry, not precise)
- salt of course, I guess not too much, maybe 2% max.
- Mix and rest 20 minutes (only ???) - I do not know how reliable it is, cause transmitted verbally  ;)
- baking for 45 to 60 minutes depending on flour at 250C

This all is a bit vaguely, but the only thinkg I could find out.

Cheers,
martin


« Last Edit: October 31, 2011, 11:21:15 PM by Martino1 »
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: In search of the Vietnamese Baguette
« Reply #27 on: October 31, 2011, 11:28:23 PM »
Martino, thank you so much! That is very helpful.  I took a break for the time being because of repeated failures and to do some research into the regular baguette.  I will pick up this project again very soon.

Egg yellow is maybe egg yolk?  I will see about trying to order some of their flour if I don't make any progress with the local AP flours.  There is also a few oriental markets that may carry the bot lam banh mi.  Again, thank you so much.

Chau
« Last Edit: October 31, 2011, 11:40:05 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Martino1

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Re: In search of the Vietnamese Baguette
« Reply #28 on: October 31, 2011, 11:45:59 PM »
add: High quality flour "BỤ̋t ch‚́t lượng cao" used
for bread
http://www.botmibinhdong.vn/view/26/en

and pizza
http://www.botmibinhdong.vn/view/24/en

Pizza is the only dish perfect for breakfast, lunch, tea, dinner, late night snack ;-)

Offline Martino1

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Re: In search of the Vietnamese Baguette
« Reply #29 on: October 31, 2011, 11:49:25 PM »
yes, sorry for my English: Egg Yolk. I was surprised, but maybe it helps for the thin crust and coloration.
There is a contact address. Maybe you could ask them if they have a recipe for banh mi using their flour.

This one for bread has a 12% protein content. My guess, however is, that the typical vietnamese bakeries rather uses (a cheaper) flour in the range of AP around 10-11%. The mentioned high quality flour my guess they use to simulate the western taste/style baguettes/bread.

http://www.botmibinhdong.vn/view/26/en

but again this is my guess. It is very hard to get facts here, because the bakeries are in the background somewhere in the outskirts, where i would never reach. i tried a banh mi at the BANHMIBISTRO, but their baguettes had more (western) chew and they used mayonnaise, opposed to the street style banh mi. For the carrots and cabbage: here they use pickled version, the cucumber is fresh. Cilantro a must and the banh mi lady has a gas burner in her cabinet over which the finished baguette will get another short flame toast to give it a final crisp.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2011, 11:54:46 PM by Martino1 »
Pizza is the only dish perfect for breakfast, lunch, tea, dinner, late night snack ;-)

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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: In search of the Vietnamese Baguette
« Reply #30 on: November 03, 2011, 10:14:40 PM »
Martin, my folks came by to visit the grandkids tonight so I remembered to ask them about the differences between nouc cham and nouc mam ngot.   They say the terms are interchangeable and the sauce is one in the same.   When I probed a bit further, my dad says that the sauce (nouc cham or nouc mam ngot) is originally from South Vietnam, and originally called nouc cham.  

In the North, they originally add only a bit of lime juice and occasionally fresh chile to nouc mam to make a dipping sauce.  Sugar was not added because it was very expensive, so there dipping sauce was called nouc mam mang ("salty").  The term nouc mam ngot (sweet dipping sauce) came from the northern Vietnamese that traveled south and had the nouc cham there.  It was to differentiate between their sauce nouc mam mang or simply nouc mam and the sweeter diluted sauce of the south.   Overtime, and especially after the fall of Saigon, the terms are used interchangeably today.  Eventhough the sweeter sauce can be found up North now, many of the older folks still prefer to dip their foods in the regular nouc mam with a bit of lime because that is what they are use to.  That's what they grew up with and that's how it ought to be.   ;D

I also questioned him about Pho, which he says originated in North Vietnam, but beef was very expensive so Pho ga (chicken) was the norm, and beef soup was very rare, only for the wealthy.  Pho Bo (beef) only became popular after Pho came south where beef was more common place.

Anyways, just a bit of trivia.  I really enjoyed talking to my dad about Vietnamese culture and history particularly about food.  He seem to get a lot of enjoyment out of telling me about history as well.

Tomorrow, i'll try several different baguette recipes and will update you if I have any luck.

Cheers,
Chau
« Last Edit: November 03, 2011, 10:25:26 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: In search of the Vietnamese Baguette
« Reply #31 on: November 06, 2011, 10:30:53 PM »
Okay just found this very valuable video on the vietnamese baguette on YouTube.



I was able to understand 70-80% of the dialogue.  Here's the basic recipe...

1 kg BF
3 cups water
10gm IDY
6 gm salt

-Add flour and IDY into KA mixer.  Turn on lowest speed.  Add water to desired consistency.  Turn the speed up and knead until smooth? (they don't specify a knead time or point of pasta)
-cover dough with a moist towel and rest 10-15m.  (dough looks aerated after the rest)
-pull off 150gm balls
-(pre)shape according to video.  (this will require some practice  ;D)
-rest batards for 20m or so.
-shape and roll lengthening dough into desired baguette shape.  Skip this step if doing batards or rolls.
-proof.  (they don't specify a time, but likely 45m-1h)
-mist loaves prior to loading into oven, especially if the top surface is dry.
-bake at 300F with convection for 20-25m

Other interesting info from the video.  This gentleman (Mr. Hong?) worked in a bakery as a teenager making this bread by hand.  He worked alongside 9-10 other people making 10,000 loaves a night!  He still enjoys making the bread by hand and has been making this type of baguette for over 36 years.  He is very humble and a true master.

Hope to give this a shot soon!

Chau

« Last Edit: November 08, 2011, 12:18:20 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Jet_deck

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Re: In search of the Vietnamese Baguette
« Reply #32 on: November 06, 2011, 11:52:09 PM »
Chau, thanks for the post about the conversation with your dad.  His descriptions about the different sauces is excellent, and authentic, for anyone to enjoy.   I am sure he is a goldmine of information. :chef: ;D
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Offline norma427

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Re: In search of the Vietnamese Baguette
« Reply #33 on: November 07, 2011, 07:38:37 AM »
Chau,

I donít know if this will help you or not, but in this post at this blog, (Viet World Kitchen) there are directions for making Vietnamese Baguettes.  This is Andrea Nguyenís blog.
http://www.vietworldkitchen.com/blog/2007/05/vietnamese_bagu.html

If you search The Fresh Loaf at http://www.thefreshloaf.com/searchresults?cx=partner-pub-5060446827351852%3A9bvu1n-clx1&cof=FORID%3A9&ie=ISO-8859-1&cow=+Vietnamese+Baguette&sa=Search  you can see how many posts there are about Vietnamese Baguettes.

Norma

Offline Martino1

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Re: In search of the Vietnamese Baguette
« Reply #34 on: November 07, 2011, 09:32:19 PM »
Anxiously awaiting your next try, Chau. Interesting link from Norma, so adding rice flour seems to be off. Good... Makes it easier.
Pizza is the only dish perfect for breakfast, lunch, tea, dinner, late night snack ;-)

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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: In search of the Vietnamese Baguette
« Reply #35 on: November 07, 2011, 10:31:49 PM »
Gene, like many I'm sure, I spent a good deal of my youth not appreciating my differences from the "norm" whatever the heck that is.  :-D. I'm much looking forward to talking to my dad some more about his youth and culture.

Norma. Thanks for the links!  I have seen and noted Andrea Nguyen's recipe before.  As a matter of fact, last nights attempt was based on her food processor technique, but I tweaked the recipe just a bit.  I added 1% butter and 1% powdered milk to temper the aggressive mixing action of the FP and to help soften the crumb a bit.  I made some good baguettes, but the crumb wasn't soft enough.  Still a bit dense, but a step in the right direction.  I discovered this weekend that my IDY, which has been kept in the pantry, is finally weak after a year plus!  My previous few past failed attempts may not have been that bad had I had decent yeast activity!

As for the link to TFL, I have seem some of them and not others.  I went through them and was able to extract a tidbit of useful info.  One of the posters felt that one of the keys to this bread is the high amounts of yeast to give it the loft and I agree.  ;D.

Martin, I was very happy and energized to find that YT video and recipe.  It help clarify and simplify the recipe tremendously.  No need for special flours, including rice, sugar, or fats.  Although I'm pretty certain these ingredients in small quantities are not detrimental to this particular baguette and may actually help.  I was very happy to see the dough and it's hydration and the use of a Kitchen Aid mixer!   Also interesting is the low salt content which possibly explains the relative bland taste and the loft of the bread.  And most valuable of all is his hand technique.  I'm very excited to try this recipe and technique tomorrow with some new IDY.

If I can achieve this bread, I don't think it will be hard at all to add a sourdough starter or preferment for flavor and still use the IDY for the lift.

Chau
« Last Edit: November 07, 2011, 10:35:45 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline norma427

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Re: In search of the Vietnamese Baguette
« Reply #36 on: November 08, 2011, 06:43:38 AM »
Chau, or anyone that might be interested.  These baguettes look like they have a nice crumb structure on TFL, and they include barley malt and a preferment.  http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/16530/baguettes-100-hydration-levain  I have no idea if these baguettes are what you are looking for, because I never tried to make Vietnamese baguettes.  Wish I would have tried them before.

Canít wait to see your Vietnamese baguettes.  :)

Norma

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: In search of the Vietnamese Baguette
« Reply #37 on: November 08, 2011, 12:10:46 PM »
Norma, thank you for posting that baguette recipe that you found.  Those are beautiful baguettes and are more like the old school artisanal type of baguette that has made a recent come back.  I'm looking more for the high volume, commercial style baguette, that is somewhat flavorless and stales quickly.  ;D. Well at least for now, I'm trying to crack the code on the cloud like crumb texture and the thin crispy veneer.  I can work on flavor and shelf life down the road.

I did take a closer look at the recipe and it is indeed what I have in mind for a future project if I can achieve my current goals.  Making a same day baguette with a high amount of starter/preferment/poolish (for flavor) with the addition of (high amounts) IDY for the lift!

I also noted some interesting things about this recipe compared to the one from YouTube.
-it calls for a high quality low protein flour which is what I presume Mr. Hong's flour to be, a low protein BF.
-the final hydration including the poolish is 66%, which is the same hydration Mr. Hong used in the video.
-the (pre)shaping technique of rolling the dough into a cylindrical shape is similar if not the same as Mr. Hong's technique.
-IDY (commercial) yeast amount is very similar as well.

I'm hopeful to move forward with this project.  Thank you again for your help Norma.  Much appreciated.

Chau
« Last Edit: November 08, 2011, 12:13:55 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline norma427

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Re: In search of the Vietnamese Baguette
« Reply #38 on: November 08, 2011, 10:02:56 PM »
Chau,

You are welcome any time.  I know you can make anything whether it is pizza, Vienamese Baguettes, or anything else.  ;D  Will be watching to see how any of your baguettes turn out.

Norma

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: In search of the Vietnamese Baguette
« Reply #39 on: November 11, 2011, 11:49:31 AM »
Thank you for the vote of confidence Norma!  Sometimes I think you have more confidence in me than I do in myself.

Well I had 2 more failures a couple of days ago.  I decided it wasn't even worth posting about. 

I decided to take a look at bread enhancers and found this video on YT.



I thought I could use some of her tips and incorporate it with the recipe Norma posted above from TFL.
I started with a new recipe using HG flour and add a few dough enhancers (brown sugar and vinegar).  I skipped on adding the extra starch b/c I was already using  HG flour.   Next time I try this I'll use a lower protein flour and add in a bit of the glutinous rice flour.

Anyways, here is my first success with this style of bread.  I was blown away by the results.



Chau
« Last Edit: November 11, 2011, 01:45:27 PM by Jackie Tran »

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