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Author Topic: NY Style Leathery Chew - Tender is my Goal  (Read 1121 times)

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Offline PizzaManic

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NY Style Leathery Chew - Tender is my Goal
« on: March 21, 2021, 06:36:29 PM »
Hello Everyone

I've been absent from the forum for quite some time now with Covid changing our lives. I just read about Tom's passing - condolences to his close ones.

I hope members can chime in and give me some advice to my dilemma.

I was privelaged enough to churn out some awesome Pizzas this past Sunday but I'm still battling with one issue and that's the tough leathery chew in the crust. Don't get me wrong, the leathery texture doesn't take away all the other awesome characteristics that this formula produces but for my own preference I would like to aim for a more tender chew.

Formula Below
Bread Flour
62% water
2% salt
2% Sugar
0.25 idy
3% butter

Bulk dough fridged for 1 day the balled for 12 hours before baking.

I've tried different flours with different protein levels as well as higher highdration but still end up with finding the crust too leathery for my liking. I baked these pies in under 3 mins and as you can see some awesome Charing here and there so not sure if heat is still my problem as before I was baking at a much lower temperature and longer cooking time and this gave me the same results.

My gut feeling is pointing towards the butter percentage. I'm thinking to increase it to the maximum and I know that the trade-off there would probably be a crust that's flaky and biscuit like in texture but from there I would back down the percentage untill I get to the sweet spot I'm looking for.

What are your thoughts?

Take care
Mo
« Last Edit: March 21, 2021, 06:38:56 PM by PizzaManic »
Regards Mo

Offline Peter B

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Re: NY Style Leathery Chew - Tender is my Goal
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2021, 07:23:40 PM »
It looks tasty to me, but tenderness of the crust is probably not something that one can see.

I am no expert, but here are some things that pop to mind:
- I have not used butter before. I use oil at 2%. I would not think that butter would be the culprit vs oil, but maybe the 3% is too much?
- Are you possibly over mixing?  That will make dough tough sometimes.
- I haven’t done a fermentation schedule like yours, as I go with 45 min bench rest, ball and then 3 days CF.  Not saying yours is wrong but just looking at things that you do different than me. 

I am curious to see what the experts say.
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: NY Style Leathery Chew - Tender is my Goal
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2021, 08:33:56 PM »
Mo,

As a point of clarification, did you measure the finished dough temperature? And was the 12 hours you mentioned in the refrigerator or at room temperature? I also assume that your flour was malted.

Peter

Offline scott r

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Re: NY Style Leathery Chew - Tender is my Goal
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2021, 10:13:16 PM »
As it stands now your 3 percent butter is really only 1.5 percent fat since butter has so much water in it.  I would go for 8% and see what you think.  Its hard to detect much effect from fats until you get above about 3 percent.  Good luck.

Offline PizzaManic

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Re: NY Style Leathery Chew - Tender is my Goal
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2021, 12:15:17 AM »
Peter B, indeed it was tasty. I followed Tom Lehman's mixing regimen. Water in mixer bowl followed by sugar and salt (no stirring). Then dumped in flour followed by yeast on top. Mixed on speed one for 2 mins till dough just formed. Then added softened butter and mixed on speed 2 for 8 mins with dough hook attachment. Dough came out soft and supple - my opinion was it handled beautifully.

Pete-zza, dough temp was right at 75f out the mixer bowl. When I took the bulk dough out the fridge to start balling, dough was 48f. Balled dough was placed back into the fridge for 12 hours. I'm assuming the flour was malted since it was a regular brand of bread flour - no mention that it was or wasn't malted. I should also mention the dough opened out extremely easily with minimal snap back.

Scott, i also had the figure of 8 to 10% butter and then tone up or down from there - we'll see how the next try goes.

Thanks all - appreciate the input.
Regards Mo

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Offline HansB

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Re: NY Style Leathery Chew - Tender is my Goal
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2021, 08:16:35 AM »
Maybe use European butter for it's higher fat content?

"USDA commercial butter basics
All U.S. butter must be at least 80 percent butterfat. (That leaves about 18 percent as water and 1 to 2 percent milk solids). Land O’Lakes, the best-selling brand nationwide, now offers a new extra-creamy European-style butter.

European/European-style butter
This is butter that contains a higher butterfat percentage (82-86 percent) than basic butter and less water, resulting in a richer taste, softer texture and faster melt-ability. Look for Échiré (my favorite) or the more widely available Plugrá. Beurre d’Isigny is also good and can be found in many dairy cases, and Le Beurre Bordier is the butter folks buy as if it’s a fine wine."
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Offline Peter B

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Re: NY Style Leathery Chew - Tender is my Goal
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2021, 09:34:26 AM »
Keep us posted on what you change and the results.  The two things I am toying with are:
- Testing modifications in my NY dough.  For example - trying brown sugar instead of white sugar.  Butter would be an interesting replacement for the oil, so if you can do some of the testing for me, that would be great!   :D
- I am starting to fiddle with Star Tavern type bar pie recipes.  These have a much higher fat content, and I could see an alternate fat being used.
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: NY Style Leathery Chew - Tender is my Goal
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2021, 03:56:28 PM »
Mo,

Since you referenced the NY style and also that you followed Tom Lehmann's mixing method, I went back to Tom's NY style dough formulation as set forth on the forum at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/lehmann-nystyle.php

There are a few things to note about Tom's recipe. You will immediately note Tom's first sentence under the recipe itself:

This formula produces a somewhat thin crust with a tough, chewy texture.

Tom also mentioned sugar in his instructions but said it would help for lower-temperature home ovens. On many other occasions, Tom recommended sugar for doughs that were to be cold fermented for two or three days, and the amount of sugar he typically recommended was 2%.

I agree with the other members on the implication of the use of butter instead of oil, which Tom included in his formula at 1-2% (olive oil). Apart from your use of butter instead of oil, your overall dough formulation fits the values given in Tom's formula. What is not clear to me is whether butter functions the same as oil. For example, I once took a stab at discussing the role of oil in a dough and pizza. This is what I said:

Oil serves many purposes when used in or on pizza dough. When used in the dough, it coats the gluten strands, which helps improve the rheology (flow) and plastic qualities of a dough, making it more extensible (stretchy) and easier to handle and shape. The oil in the dough also helps to prevent moisture in the dough from evaporating too quickly, thereby resulting in a more moist crumb in the finished crust. If the oil is also accompanied by a lot of sugar, which also helps retain moisture in the dough during baking, the finished crust and crumb will be soft and tender rather than crispy. These are characteristics that you will find in an American style crust, such as the crust of a Papa John's pizza. The oil in the dough also adds flavor to the crust.

You should by all means experiment with using butter rather than oil but my thinking was that maybe you did not use the optimum amount of yeast or that the fermentation was not the optimum amount for the amount of yeast you used. I tried to use Craig's chart at Reply 188 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26831.msg349349#msg349349 (click to enlarge) to get a handle on the amount of yeast to use for your dough's total fermentation period but it was not clear to me what your refrigerator's temperature was during the initial 24 hours, and also for the final 12 hours. But, even then, the dough could have fermented differently due to the fact that you cold fermented the dough in bulk for 24 hours before forming the individual dough balls, which were then cold fermented for another 12 hours. I might add that there is nothing wrong with using a bulk ferment. In fact, you might find the following thread of interest in which member John Fazzari achieved wonderful results using the combination of bulk ferment and fermentation of individual dough ball, one effect of which was to produce an egg shell-like bottom crust.

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=36684.msg365066#msg365066

Peter





Offline PizzaManic

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Re: NY Style Leathery Chew - Tender is my Goal
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2021, 02:24:51 AM »
Peter B, I made the switch to butter some years back after I found a slight aftertaste when I used sunflower oil. Sunflower oil is the most widely available oil here in South Africa and I try to use ingredients that are widely available. As for the Brown sugar, been there, done that and can vouch that brown sugar works well. I can't comment on differences between brown and white as I never bothered to capture that data but I'm happy with brown.

Pete-zza, when I journeyed through NY Style and saw Toms formula, I also noticed his description of the crust being tough and chewy but I thought the toughness wont be as pronounced as it is in my pies. There is a local pizzeria here in my town that sells NY Style Pies baked in a Wood Fired Oven but they don't call it New York Pizza - rather they call it Italian Pizzas - I guess it's all a marketing strategy since not many know what exactly is a NY Style Pizza here in South Africa. Nevertheless, their pizzas are very tender to the bite with a nice chew. Each slice is floppy and has to be folded to eat it with one hand which I believe is another characteristics of a NY Style Pie. One other thing I noticed is when I reheated their pies directly on my pizza stone, the crust ends up with a tender crisp and almost biscuit like in texture as compared to my pies when reheated they end up crunchy that requires some tooth power to get through it - not all that desirable. I suspect they use a whole lot more oil than the norm but I could be mistaken.

I have used Fazzari's reball method and that's where I learned to Bulk Ferment and ball 12 hours before use - it definitely produces an awesome crust.

I plan to go well above the norm with butter in my next dough and see what happens - I'm thinking along the lines of Flaky Pie Crust - it has loads of butter, takes a good 30 minutes to bake and the flakey pie crust remains awesomely tender.

Take Care
Mo
Regards Mo

Offline amolapizza

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Re: NY Style Leathery Chew - Tender is my Goal
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2021, 03:58:20 AM »
I know nothing about NY style pizza, but FWIW I've noticed that a long mixing/kneading time seems to lead to a more leathery result.  Maybe try a shorter mixing time, the gluten will continue to develop during your bench rest.  AFAIK even if the dough is a bit rough after mixing, it will make smooth dough balls after resting for 30 minutes.
Jack

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Offline pgpizza

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Re: NY Style Leathery Chew - Tender is my Goal
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2021, 12:03:08 PM »
I like a tender crust too.  Your recipe seems in line with what I do except I use a much higher hydration (close to 70% or more).  I mix my dough for about 12 minutes on the lowest speed using my Kitchenaid mixer.  For a 12" pizza I use about 350g of dough and bake for 7 minutes at 500 and my crust comes out tender but a nice golden brown.  I'll include a pic of what mine look like.

Scott

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