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Author Topic: Where do I go wrong?  (Read 549 times)

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Offline Lisa

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Where do I go wrong?
« on: March 29, 2021, 11:04:41 AM »
Hello everyone hope you are all keeping safe.

Every time I make a dough it never looks like those I see on the videos even if my ratios are correct. For one it never looks as white. My dough comes out looking a bit more yellowish. Also it never passes the windowpane test and is very difficult to stretch out and shape often just springing back so that it takes me ten minutes or so to even form a rough circle.

I currently use strong bread flour with 13.4% protein but have experimented with mixing it with other flours to bring it's protein content down to 11-12% or so but to no avail. My last pizza was more like a biscuit than a pizza.

I do not have a pizza oven so can't get my home oven nearly as hot as is needed but even before cooking my dough never looks right. Why is it more yellow than white?

Offline 02ebz06

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Re: Where do I go wrong?
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2021, 11:17:18 AM »
I'm not an expert in this field, but I suggest you post the recipe, the type of flour (name), and the procedure you are using to help in solving your situation.

Also, somebody can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe you need to do the windowpane test for pizza dough, just for breads.
Bruce here... My cooking toys --> FGM 800-B Pizza Oven, Pellet Grill, Pellet Smoker, Propane Griddle, Propane Grill

Offline Lisa

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Re: Where do I go wrong?
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2021, 11:29:24 AM »
I'm not an expert in this field, but I suggest you post the recipe, the type of flour (name), and the procedure you are using to help in solving your situation.

Also, somebody can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe you need to do the windowpane test for pizza dough, just for breads.

Thank you for your reply.

I simply use strong white bread flour and for every 100g I use 66ml warm water a couple of grams of salt and a gram or so of yeast. I mix it together by hand then let it rest for half an hour or so before kneading it for five-ten minutes. I then seal it in a container and let it prove for two -four hours. I sometimes put in the fridge and let it prove for 24 hours or so but with a little less yeast.

Offline texmex

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Re: Where do I go wrong?
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2021, 12:01:15 PM »
Welcome.  For best results, give complete information so the kind folks here can delve into the inherent issues you are experiencing.   
Flours are not created equal, so the brand name will give clues about additives or bleaching which can change many things in your dough. It could be malted bread flour.  You don't mention how hot your oven gets, nor the style dough you are making. Bread flour can be tough and chewy for pizza. I have better results with all purpose flour, or a mixture. Oil will help with tenderness. sugars help with browning.  Heat is a very fickle part of many pizza styles.  More info is better here, seriously.  Good luck with your endeavors to make a better pizza. You are in the right place!. 
Reesa

Offline Lisa

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Re: Where do I go wrong?
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2021, 12:38:36 PM »
Thank you.

The flour I use is from a local supermarket called Sainsbury's here in the UK and it is 13.4% protein which may be a little high for pizza dough so I sometimes mix it with plain flour to dilute it somewhat.

I use dry yeast and water sometimes adding a little sugar to check that the yeast is still alive. I add salt and that is pretty much it. I mix it all together and do the usual kneading routine.

My oven only reaches 250 degrees so I have begun pan frying my base first to make sure it is crisp before putting it in the oven with a quick flash under the grill too.

My main concern is that my dough never looks nor acts like I see in the videos. It possesses far more spring back than what I see no matter if I leave it a few minutes after trying to stretch it. Also the colour is totally different. It is never as white as I see in the videos even though the flour is chalk white at the beginning and nothing I add has any colour to it bar the small amount of yeast.
 

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Offline texmex

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Re: Where do I go wrong?
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2021, 01:11:45 PM »
You should be able to bake a decent pizza at 250°Celsius, but that super high protein is not helping . .. by parcooking the crust, you are taking a tough dough into another realm of toughness.  Do you have a stone, steel, or pan to cook on?


I found this guy in the UK who talks about UK flours, and methods he uses.  I hope it is helpful. https://www.crustkingdom.com/best-pizza-flour-in-the-uk/
Reesa

Offline Lisa

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Re: Where do I go wrong?
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2021, 05:18:51 PM »
You should be able to bake a decent pizza at 250°Celsius, but that super high protein is not helping . .. by parcooking the crust, you are taking a tough dough into another realm of toughness.  Do you have a stone, steel, or pan to cook on?


I found this guy in the UK who talks about UK flours, and methods he uses.  I hope it is helpful. https://www.crustkingdom.com/best-pizza-flour-in-the-uk/
Thank you.

Offline jezbond

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Re: Where do I go wrong?
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2021, 05:46:43 PM »
Hi Lisa. I'm in London. Use a "strong white bread flour" (like Alisons) from the supermarket. I use 1KG to 650ml luke warm water- so pretty similar to your ratio. And 14g yeast with that. Perfect dough every time. You can add a touch of salt and sugar too. I'd leave it to rise for longer first time though. If it springs back it's too cold - leave it in room temperature for a while and then try: big difference.

Offline megan45

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Re: Where do I go wrong?
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2021, 07:39:13 PM »
You should be able to bake a decent pizza at 250°Celsius, but that super high protein is not helping . ..

I disagree that the protein level is necessarily a problem (though I concur that parbaking is not necessary). For one thing, a 13.4% protein European flour isn't necessarily (nor is it likely to be) the same as a 13.4% protein US flour because European and US methods of measuring protein (and ash) levels are different. US protein levels are typically reported on a 14% moisture basis, whereas EU protein levels are reported on a "dry matter" (0% moisture) basis. According to King Arthur Flour's A Guide to Understanding Flour Analysis, the conversion factor between US and European flours is [Protein 14% m.b. = Protein % as is x (100 – 14) / (100 – Moisture Content)]. Based on that, a 13.4% protein flour (dry matter basis) = 11.52% (14% moisture basis). For another thing, the variety (or varieties) of wheat that make up the flour necessarily affect the dough characteristics:

Quote
It is entirely possible to have two different wheat varieties or classes with the same protein content and gluten content (balance of glaiden and glutenin) but with entirely different performance characteristics, such as fermentation tolerance, mixing tolerance, absorption properties, elasticity, and extensibility. As such, these characteristics are intrinsic with the wheat from which a flour is made. The flour that we work with every day is made from a blend of wheat having at least some of these individual characteristics with the function of the miller in blending the wheat to balance out these characteristics to provide a flour with consistent and known properties (this is why so many of us describe flour milling as both an art and a science). – The Dough Doctor

I'd leave it to rise for longer first time though. If it springs back it's too cold - leave it in room temperature for a while and then try: big difference.

I concur that a longer rise would be beneficial, though I would quibble with attributing the "spring back" (excessive elasticity) to the dough temperature: I would wager that the excessive elasticity is due to insufficient fermentation, and that the additional fermentation during the room temperature rise is at least as significant a factor—if not moreso—in reducing the elasticity as the dough temperture per se.

Offline QwertyJuan

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Re: Where do I go wrong?
« Reply #9 on: March 29, 2021, 08:07:01 PM »
I disagree that the protein level is necessarily a problem (though I concur that parbaking is not necessary). For one thing, a 13.4% protein European flour isn't necessarily (nor is it likely to be) the same as a 13.4% protein US flour because European and US methods of measuring protein (and ash) levels are different. US protein levels are typically reported on a 14% moisture basis, whereas EU protein levels are reported on a "dry matter" (0% moisture) basis. According to King Arthur Flour's A Guide to Understanding Flour Analysis, the conversion factor between US and European flours is [Protein 14% m.b. = Protein % as is x (100 – 14) / (100 – Moisture Content)]. Based on that, a 13.4% protein flour (dry matter basis) = 11.52% (14% moisture basis). For another thing, the variety (or varieties) of wheat that make up the flour necessarily affect the dough characteristics:

I concur that a longer rise would be beneficial, though I would quibble with attributing the "spring back" (excessive elasticity) to the dough temperature: I would wager that the excessive elasticity is due to insufficient fermentation, and that the additional fermentation during the room temperature rise is at least as significant a factor—if not moreso—in reducing the elasticity as the dough temperture per se.

So, it's the same as an 11.5% protein flour here in North America? If so, that is NOT high gluten at all. Robin Hood AP here in Canada, the most popular flour in Canada, is about 12%.

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Offline megan45

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Re: Where do I go wrong?
« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2021, 08:57:11 AM »
So, it's the same as an 11.5% protein flour here in North America? If so, that is NOT high gluten at all. Robin Hood AP here in Canada, the most popular flour in Canada, is about 12%.

Presumably—which, given the OP's location (UK) and her statement:
I currently use strong bread flour with 13.4% protein but have experimented with mixing it with other flours to bring it's protein content down to 11-12% or so but to no avail.
seems to be a reasonable presumption—the 13.4% protein is measured on a dry matter basis, in which case, no, it's not HG.

@Lisa:
My dough comes out looking a bit more yellowish. Also it never passes the windowpane test

The windowpane test is appropriate for bread dough, but the consensus these days seems to be that it's not useful for pizza dough (unless you're making an emergency, frozen, or a long mix/short rise dough). See:
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5083.msg43133.html#msg43133
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3560.msg30582.html#msg30582

Quote
Why is it more yellow than white?
Tom Lehman, aka the Dough Doctor, attributes the yellowish color to the the flour being unbleached.

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