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Author Topic: Overnight DSP proof, room temp, in pan? Is it possible?  (Read 547 times)

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Offline panpizza

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Overnight DSP proof, room temp, in pan? Is it possible?
« on: May 17, 2021, 09:49:15 PM »
Hello all!

Looking for some advice. Would love to be able to prove a detroit style dough overnight, say 24 hours and at room temp, so that the next day it is ready for a parbake. I've tried a few formulas, but to no avail. Has anyone tried this, is it even possible?

My current formula is

All Trumps Flour - 75%
AP Flour - 25%
Water - 70%
IDY - .7%
Salt - 2%
EVOO - 2%

I've tried reducing the yeast down to as little as .1%. Again, the ideal is to mix, bulk proof, cut and ball, stretch, and then prove overnight at room temp.

If anyone can give me insight I'd be thrilled. Thanks!

Offline QwertyJuan

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Re: Overnight DSP proof, room temp, in pan? Is it possible?
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2021, 09:53:11 PM »
Hello all!

Looking for some advice. Would love to be able to prove a detroit style dough overnight, say 24 hours and at room temp, so that the next day it is ready for a parbake. I've tried a few formulas, but to no avail. Has anyone tried this, is it even possible?

My current formula is

All Trumps Flour - 75%
AP Flour - 25%
Water - 70%
IDY - .7%
Salt - 2%
EVOO - 2%

I've tried reducing the yeast down to as little as .1%. Again, the ideal is to mix, bulk proof, cut and ball, stretch, and then prove overnight at room temp.

If anyone can give me insight I'd be thrilled. Thanks!

I can tell you it's NOT possible at .7% yeast. 24 hours?? .1% might even be too much, depending on the temperature of your room. What does "room temp" mean to you??

Offline panpizza

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Re: Overnight DSP proof, room temp, in pan? Is it possible?
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2021, 10:01:17 PM »
Yes, I understand .7% is too high. That's my standard same day formula, or cold ferment overnight. Room temp to me is is 68-70F. At .1%, I got similar results to .7%.

Offline DoouBall

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Re: Overnight DSP proof, room temp, in pan? Is it possible?
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2021, 10:28:56 PM »
The entire mechanism that makes pan pizzas work is using a higher quantity of yeast than Neapolitan pizza. With insufficient yeast, you will not get a good puff and the dough will not stand up to the toppings during the bake. 

I recommend you proof overnight in the fridge and stick to a solid % of yeast, such as 0.6%.
Alex

Outdoor Oven: Blackstone. Indoor Oven: Gaggenau.

Offline QwertyJuan

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Re: Overnight DSP proof, room temp, in pan? Is it possible?
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2021, 08:59:24 PM »
The entire mechanism that makes pan pizzas work is using a higher quantity of yeast than Neapolitan pizza. With insufficient yeast, you will not get a good puff and the dough will not stand up to the toppings during the bake. 

I recommend you proof overnight in the fridge and stick to a solid % of yeast, such as 0.6%.

Interesting. Had no idea. So 12-24 hours in the fridge with a higher amount of yeast for deep dish. Good to know!!

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Offline megan45

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Re: Overnight DSP proof, room temp, in pan? Is it possible?
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2021, 07:57:56 PM »
The entire mechanism that makes pan pizzas work is using a higher quantity of yeast than Neapolitan pizza. With insufficient yeast, you will not get a good puff and the dough will not stand up to the toppings during the bake. 

Disagree. STRONGLY. I occasionally do 24 hr RT (68-72°F) Detroit and Sicilian dough at 0.036% IDY. No meaningful difference in dough handling or performance characteristics compared to my usual 48 hr CF/40•F dough at 0.26% IDY. Also, fermentation time and temperature being equal, I use the same percentage of yeast in my Detroit/Sicilian, NY, Chicago, and Neapolitan doughs.

At .1%, I got similar results to .7%.

At 70°F, 0.1% yeast is 2-3x more than you need. Try dropping your yeast to the 0.03-0.05% range.

Offline Rolls

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Re: Overnight DSP proof, room temp, in pan? Is it possible?
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2021, 08:54:14 PM »
I used to do a pan pizza following a recipe from Alessandro Negrini that required pan proofing for 24 hours at RT.  Some takeaways:  use very little yeast, as mentioned; consider lowering the hydration rate in order to slow down fermentation; use cooler water;  after stretching the dough in the pan, dock it well (preferably with a dough docker, not a fork); brush the top of the dough skin with oil;  proof the dough in a draft free environment, perhaps with another inverted pan serving as a lid; after the dough has finished proofing, par-bake it naked in a hot oven (480 F) for about 5 minutes in order to "set" the crust; add toppings and finish the bake.

You'll have to experiment with ANY recipe and workflow of this type in order to dial it in.  Always be mindful of temperature control.


Rolls

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Offline DoouBall

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Re: Overnight DSP proof, room temp, in pan? Is it possible?
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2021, 11:48:48 PM »
If we're talking about any style of pan pizza, sure, you can do things like small quantities of yeast, parbake, etc.

But we're talking about Detroit style. Detroit style is not par-baked, please see HansB's post about it. Hans is a resident of Detroit and makes great pizza himself.

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=60234.msg603873#msg603873

Secondly a reference Detroit style recipe is this one, also from HansB:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=42012.msg461690#msg461690

Notice, the use of 1% IDY. High yeast quantity is important for this style because we're not parbaking. Without the high yeast %, you don't have the strong push in the oven to stand up to the abundant toppings.

And here's another, from Shawn Randazzo:

https://www.pmq.com/detroit-style-pizza-recipe/

He uses even more, about 1.4% IDY

Now, if you wanted to do a Sicilian and parbake, you could get away with these tiny quantities of yeast. But just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean that it's the best way.

One big problem with fermenting for a very long time at room temp, is that there is no such thing as room temp. How do you achieve consistency when you have 24 hours to go and your temperatures can easily fluctuate 5-10F or more during the day and night? How can you calculate your fermentation time precisely? You can't. You'll have to do a lot of trial and error, babysit your dough and move it in and out of hot and cold spots in the house .... and when the season changes, do these experiments all over again. Using the fridge allows you to achieve the same result year-round without all this fiddling.

If you really want good results with a room temp ferment, you'll need to use a temperature-controlled chamber of some sort, like a wine cooler and a fermentation chart. But for a Detroit Style Pizza, the toppings are so intensely flavored and so abundant that you don't need to obsess about having the perfect dough recipe - make life easier for yourself. Just my 2c.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2021, 11:59:01 PM by DoouBall »
Alex

Outdoor Oven: Blackstone. Indoor Oven: Gaggenau.

Offline megan45

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Re: Overnight DSP proof, room temp, in pan? Is it possible?
« Reply #8 on: May 20, 2021, 10:53:07 AM »
Recipies are not exact definitions written in stone, to be followed without deviation or variation, world without end, amen: if they were, there would BE no Detroit—or Chicago deep dish/stuffed/thin, NY, Teglia, Tonda, Canotto—style; recipies are jumping off points for further experimentation.

One merely has to browse the Detroit Style subforum to see that a high yeast quantity is FAR from necessary, or even characteristic, of DSP:

Tgraham - 0.6% IDY

Serpentelli - 0.6% IDY

pete-zza - 0.3951%

PizzaHog - 0.33% IDY

PizzaHog - 0.55% IDY

C6Bill - 0.25% IDY

Oh …  and some guy who might know a little bit about making pizza named TxCraig1—maybe you’ve heard of him—does 24 HR/75°F 2% Ischia culture and a 4 HR/75°F 0.14% IDY Detroit style pizza.

Here’s the thing that's missing iin your disquisition: heart. Pizzamaking is not a science; it’s a CRAFT, and pizzamakers are craftspeople, not technicians. While we stand within a tradition, we are not SLAVES to that tradition—at least if our goal is to nuture and enrich the tradition.

Quote
Tradition depends upon an attitude of mind. This is a matter of heart. It is not a faithful following in the footsteps of a master, not a simple repetition of ancient forms, not mere imitation. For that would be parasitic of tradition, and, as in nature, when parasites become attached to a plant, it withers.

At the heart of a true tradition is a constant feeling of dissatisfaction—a constant striving to come closer to the ideal, to express more faithfully the inexpressible. It is not the forms created by the teacher that are to be followed, but his aims, his vision, his spirit. Thus, the pursuit of tradition is a constant challenge, and, like the growth of a tree, its development depends on its adaptability to its environment and to the changes that take place there. Only through this constant reference to the present can the artist nurture his tradition, giving it more beauty and greater strength by finding new forms, developing new techniques. – Otomaru Kodo

Offline HansB

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Re: Overnight DSP proof, room temp, in pan? Is it possible?
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2021, 04:05:07 PM »
The amount of yeast used is all about the time and temperature of your dough management. DS does not inherently use more yeast than any other pizza style. I frequently use much less than 1%.
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Offline DoouBall

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Re: Overnight DSP proof, room temp, in pan? Is it possible?
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2021, 10:34:30 PM »
The amount of yeast used is all about the time and temperature of your dough management. DS does not inherently use more yeast than any other pizza style. I frequently use much less than 1%.

Good to know.
Alex

Outdoor Oven: Blackstone. Indoor Oven: Gaggenau.

Offline Jackitup

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Offline killerasp

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Re: Overnight DSP proof, room temp, in pan? Is it possible?
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2021, 08:39:45 PM »
I recently got this scale for the purpose of measuring out yeast for long ferments.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06Y61YW7S/?tag=pmak-20

goes as low as 0.01g

Offline megan45

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Re: Overnight DSP proof, room temp, in pan? Is it possible?
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2021, 06:10:59 PM »
I recently got this scale for the purpose of measuring out yeast for long ferments.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06Y61YW7S/?tag=pmak-20

goes as low as 0.01g

I have that scale, and it does no such thing.

The display resolution goes to .01 g, but the fact that, buried in the flea type of printed specs on the enclosed instruction/spec sheet sates that comes with the scale, the lowest weight it claims to register is .05g strongly suggests that its actual resolution is no lower than .05 g, implying that its accuracy is, at best, ±0.1 g (and, in all probability, is somewhere between 1-3 g, and possibly as much as 5 g).

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