The Flop (NYC Style)

[jamshm]

Hello. I’ve been making home pizza now for a few years. One of the things that I’ve been trying to achieve is the “flop” found in many a New York slice. Any advice on how to achieve this?

Thanks in advance

[hammettjr]

You may need to elaborate on what exactly you're after. Basically a non-crisp crust will droop when you hold it. Is that what you mean?

There was definitely confusion around this when Portnoy moved to NY and started commenting about "good flop". He then changed it to "good no flop". Many people like a little crisp and structural integrity therefore not flopping is a sign. Depends on what you're after though.

[jamshm]

Hey.  Thanks for the reply.  Yes absolutely, let me clarify.  Ive been trying to make a NYC Style Pizza at home on my baking steel.  Essentially given the size of the steel I can at max make a 14inch pie.  I can get the bottom crisp (ie more structural integrity) but recently ive been looking to make a softer almost chewier dough, less crunch. 

Admittedly I was referencing Portnoy when it comes to the "Flop" 
Ideally, I would love to make a thinner bottom that is not so crispy but has a delicate chew to it.

My dough recipe for one 14 inch pie is as follows.
250g of KABF or All Trumps
170g of Water (68% Hydration)
3% Salt
3% Sugar
1% IDY
2% EVOO at the end

I take half the flour and mix it with the sugar and IDY in my Kitchen Aid Mixer.
Add in all of the water until well combined and let it rest for 30 min.
Add in the rest of the flour and salt
Add in the EVOO slowly
Remove from mixing bowl when soft (10min of mixing on low speed)
Do a series of slap and folds and cover at room temp for 30 min
Repeat the slap and fold and ball up and place in box in the fridge for 24-72 hours

Remove the dough and shape into a ball and let it sit on the counter in my proofing box for 2-3 hours.
The average weight of this ball is ~ 14-15 oz
Stretch the dough until a get a 14 inch pie
Place in a pre heated 500 degree oven (preheating for 1 hour) directly onto baking steel.
 

[FunkedOut]

There are really an infinite number of ways to vary your process.
Process affects your finished product, no doubt. 

Holding process constant, try adding more oil, say 3% or 4%, maybe even 5% to see a bigger change. 
Fat usually softens things up for me.
You may find you want to dial back hydration as you increase oil, but you may be fine.

As a separate experiment, try less hydration. 
Maybe go wild one time with 58% hydration. 

Another thing to try is different flour.   
I find different flour definitely affects the finished product and each flour asks for its own level hydration. 
What I mean by that is, the dough feel you’re used to will require a different hydration level when switching flours.

You’re going to have to keep making and eating pizza untill you get it right! 

[FunkedOut]

One more thought as perhaps the least invasive thing to try.
Add more sauce to get more flop.
Or use cheese with more moisture. 
Or a sauce with more water content. 

I guess another thought is trying colder sauce and cheese if you’re using room temp.
I’m done now.

[scott r]

This is all great advice.  Im not sure if your oven can go up to 550, but some do and most modern home ovens even have a calibration to get some extra heat past that.  This might be "secret" and you will have to read the manual to learn about how to get the extra heat.  More heat = more flop

[Cardellino]

You didn’t say how long you cooked it. Maybe if you slightly under cook it? A friend who turned me on to All Trumps didn’t like it by itself as she thought it was too chewy. I am thinking she didn’t cook the pie long enough (500f). My wife like it slightly (under done?) chewy while I like it crispy and will put my slices back on the hot steel, oven off, to crisp them up. I would cut back on both sugar and oil.

[Jackitup]

This is all great advice.  Im not sure if your oven can go up to 550, but some do and most modern home ovens even have a calibration to get some extra heat past that.  This might be "secret" and you will have to read the manual to learn about how to get the extra heat.  More heat = more flop

On mine as you said, it's a back menu setting, requiring to hold a couple buttons at once to get there. Then you can adjust the ACTUAL temp 25° - 30° over or under the SET temp! Paste a note on the oven as a reminder to set temp for other things accordingly or suffer the bite from the Warden/Company Commander for burning her cake, cookies etc, etc!!!😳😊😉

[Jersey Pie Boy]

Also with steel...if you have an oven
with top broil, once preheat is complete you can blast broiler heat...have steel as close to element as you're comfortable working.  Might be able to get 625 or so...its not sustainable of course, but it gets the bake going like gangbusters. I think to keep some floppies, you don't want to bake longer than 5 mins if possible

[adamcain112]

Preheat your oven and try to put the pizza steal in like 15min before you bake the pizza.

[Jersey Pie Boy]

Adam, actually depends on steel thickness. It needs to preheat also, 1 to 1.5 hours depending on thickness of steel

[RHawthorne]

I'm hearing lots of talk about using a baking steel on this thread, and I'm not so sure you need to be using one at all for what you're trying to achieve. I think it might not be the right tool for the job. A cheap pizza crisper might be all you need. I used one one and off for years, and still put it to use once in a while. It won't get anywhere near as hot as a steel, obviously, but it will get plenty hot if you let it preheat in the oven for a good 15 minutes or so. I like them because they allow air flow from beneath, and you don't have to wait so long to bake a pizza. They're good for when you want a pizza crust with a good crisp on it, but you don't need it to be too firm. I think it's worth considering.