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Author Topic: Pizza Party on Gabriola Island  (Read 106033 times)

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Offline Icelandr

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Re: Pizza Party on Gabriola Island
« Reply #1500 on: March 30, 2021, 02:14:12 PM »
It is not just the included picture, I think my glasses are split that way!
 I have enjoyed the whole story of Lilla Napoli from the build of the oven, to the mysterious fire to the little videos on YouTube showing experiments and practice, and the story of them closing for the night because the dough wasn’t good enough.
I am pleased I can make a pizza, it tastes pretty good but the illusive look and feel of their pies and others has eluded me so far. I hope I get there, and the pursuit is good fun if not at times frustrating.
daCaMo, I believe uses a Effeuno oven, similar to early posts by GSans, also wonderful pizza.
Hidden in a folder entitled Scuba Gear is the Alfa Ovens catalog, secretly when Sharon is unaware, there has been some time spent, regrettably much easier than money!


A question if I may, Arne you have said you aim for 26 or 28 on the pluviometer, how much difference does it make? My dough balls don’t rise much and are not bubbled, but when opening the dough, with hands that feel like I am wearing mittens, there is air in the dough which is obviously pushed to the cornichone. A large bubble must be popped so collapses the cornichone in that area, 3, or more pretty well wipes out the look of the rim. In the Center of the dough bubbles become thin spots causing fear and loathing to the operator.
It may be time for another video or two from here of dough and shaping, certainly not “how to” more like asking for suggestions. I have nothing to hide as you pointed out.
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Offline Arne_Jervell

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Re: Pizza Party on Gabriola Island
« Reply #1501 on: March 31, 2021, 09:24:40 AM »
Yes, I aim for around 26-28 in the pluviometer, corresponding to a rise in the range of around 70-80%. It's been a while since I gave this serious thought, but a couple of years ago I did a review of 100 doughs and found this number to be where I had most success. Coincidentally (or not) this matches Ville and Besmir's recipe from their book, and it also matches Craig's SD prediction model pretty closely. So I guess the stars aligned on the number and it works for me.

When I read your comments about the air bubbles, what comes to mind is the experience I get with my own doughs when the spy reaches a much higher level than normal. But since you also say your balls don't rise much, I guess that means your spy reading is lower than 26-ish too? In my experience, spy levels lower than my usual target is associated with a less air, less elasticity and in general a less developed dough. I rarely have issues with too big air bubbles when the pluviometer is lower than normal. So I struggle to come up with a good explanation for this. Maybe there is a difference based on how the dough is made?

Offline Icelandr

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Re: Pizza Party on Gabriola Island
« Reply #1502 on: March 31, 2021, 06:23:44 PM »
I am still hand mixing my dough and get it to point of pasta each time. From the time the dough is ready for bulk to time to ball, as perhaps, ready to ball, about 12 hours generally the is very little change in the pluviometer. It seems to take 12 hours to effect any change on the dough as it rises pretty consistently after that time. The temperature during fermentation usually varies by less than a degree in the 24 hours. The ball weight is 240 grams now and I place the balls side by side (2) there is little contact between them, but 3 side by side seems tight.
I will take a couple of pictures.
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Offline sk

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Re: Pizza Party on Gabriola Island
« Reply #1503 on: March 31, 2021, 09:32:58 PM »
For me, I don't think it is possible to get the perfect cornicione with the Pizza Party oven.  The temperature is just not constant enough without radiant heat from bricks on the top.  It might be curious what TXCraig thinks relative to the difference, if any, from his big oven to  his smaller, gas fired Pizza Party oven.

I also feel your white cheese blocks are due to the cheese.  I cannot find quality cheese to achieve the melt.  I recall I once bought a pizza kit from a local pizzeria and the cheese melted beautifully.
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Offline parallei

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Re: Pizza Party on Gabriola Island
« Reply #1504 on: March 31, 2021, 09:49:20 PM »
For me, I don't think it is possible to get the perfect cornicione with the Pizza Party oven.........

 ;D ;D So you haven't looked seen Icelader's pies?

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Offline parallei

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Re: Pizza Party on Gabriola Island
« Reply #1505 on: March 31, 2021, 09:52:47 PM »
I also feel your white cheese blocks are due to the cheese.

Not sure I understand that. What did you mean?

Offline sk

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Re: Pizza Party on Gabriola Island
« Reply #1506 on: April 01, 2021, 11:23:02 AM »
Hi Parallei:  I was late to the party!  Yes, I have seen many of his beautiful pies.  I was trying to respond to Greg's post several reply's above.  I have the same oven.

The cornichone and shaping will, I hope, get better with time, the even colouring in the little oven I am not so sure, most of the heat is flame, not much from mass. Distance from fire to pizza is a few inches.
Speaking of appearance related . .  Because we had distanced guest, I sprung for a Buffalo Mozzarella for $8+, the nice soft melting cheese was nowhere to be found, it was like a white hockey puck!
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Offline Icelandr

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Re: Pizza Party on Gabriola Island
« Reply #1507 on: April 03, 2021, 12:03:47 AM »
Thank you both, Parallei and Scott, the melting Fiore Di Latte pursuit continues, there is not a large market here so availability is low.

Bear with me for another Bake . .  Arne Jervell, in response to my pluviometer question, suggested perhaps over fermentation might be the culprit for over bubbling in the cornichone, which when the bubbles are broken leaves flat areas.  Behold the difference! OK, the pizza guy hasn’t changed but the cornichone isn't flattened by popping bubbles.
Hand built again, 66% hydration, 4.35% sourdough for a ferment of 24.5 hours (it sounds so precise, it is not) at 21-22° C, bulk 12 hours, remainder in ball. The dough did nothing for 12 hours! It was only after balling that it started to move a bit, in the second 12 hours it went from the original 15 on th pluviometer to 26 at bake. Odd I thought, I even charted, well, took down measurements scary for an old dude!

Good results, but 2 pizza don’t make a phenomenon! More pictures than the bake deserves but bandwidth is cheap . . .

Just two pizza
  • A very nice Margherita in that the cornichone was intact, thanks Arne, due to fewer broken bubbles in the cornichone.
  • Oven pics
  • Our Favourite Italian Sausage, mushroom, red pepper garnish this time with Taleggio, . . .post bake . . . Why? Dear Sharon asks, as the pie which was sticking on the peel comes out of the oven . . . Taleggio . . .Right? Of course dear, it will be post bake tonight . . .  . It was fine, thankfully a quick melting cheese!
« Last Edit: April 03, 2021, 12:08:41 AM by Icelandr »
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Offline Pete_da_Bayer

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Re: Pizza Party on Gabriola Island
« Reply #1508 on: April 03, 2021, 04:25:55 AM »
Wow, they look great. The browning is better than the last times, too.
Some things I don´t get with the pluviometer in general. Why do you take an 80g doughball, that shows 15 on the scale instead of ~45-50g,  that would start with 10? I found that easier to see the aimed percentage of leavening. Does a smaller sized test-ball maybe rise differently and show a wrong result? What do you do with the leftover doughball from the pluviometer?
« Last Edit: April 03, 2021, 04:33:34 AM by Pete_da_Bayer »

Offline Icelandr

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Re: Pizza Party on Gabriola Island
« Reply #1509 on: April 03, 2021, 11:08:13 AM »
Having seen few Pluviometers in photos of famous pizza restaurants . . . .sorry, none. It is an indicator or a crutch of sorts and as I write this I recall the “tender timer” that was included in some turkeys sold many moons ago. When the bird was cooked, the thermometer popped out of its little housing to let you know. Really, it was a thing!

As I recall the first I heard of the pluviometer and it’s use was from a book written by the owners of Lilla Napoli, no regrettably I couldn’t read the book but I think I learned of its use from Arne Jervell who was kind enough to obtain and send one to me. The amount of dough I think was specified at 80 grams but I do not know of the significance, but it works.

In this last bake the dough was better and the corresponding pluviometer reading was lower as Arne suggested. I am not sure that I have yet the ability to read the dough accurately without the aid but obviously many do, and I hope that with time I will have a better sense of when the dough is at its optimum.

I meant to include the pictures of the dough balls when balled and when baked so will do that here, in case someone may have comments
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Offline Pete_da_Bayer

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Re: Pizza Party on Gabriola Island
« Reply #1510 on: April 03, 2021, 02:07:32 PM »
Thanks for your explanation, Greg! Obviously it worked pretty well for you with a lower level on the pluvio. The dough balls look perfect.

Offline Icelandr

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Re: Pizza Party on Gabriola Island
« Reply #1511 on: April 03, 2021, 11:33:59 PM »
Got me curious! I found this after some searching, but let’s face it I have no idea what they are saying, but no different than Italian to me. At least I found a pluviometer, an 80 gram ball, oil and that was it! Perhaps someone else has a better link. Oh, if my kids only knew what I watched . . . . . .







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Offline Arne_Jervell

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Re: Pizza Party on Gabriola Island
« Reply #1512 on: April 04, 2021, 02:05:54 AM »
Great looking pies indeed. Cornicione looking soft and puffy, it has your signature. And the browning is fantastic.

Thanks for including the dough shots. It looks very happy and eager to please.

Why 80 grams in a pluviometer? That amount is adopted from Ville and Besmir just like you said Greg, and what they say themselves is basically that it was chosen at random or at a whim. It was an amount they easily "recognized" and stuck with for reference.

My personal view is that this amount is a good compromise of waste vs usefulness: It is small enough to be discarded without shedding tears, while simultaneous being large enough to handle like a dough ball. But that's not to say starting at 10 would not work pretty well too of course (and it sure would be easier to translate to percentages).

With a smaller dough ball, precision in reading rise values would suffer too, I guess, but like Greg points out above it is not a precision tool.  I find there are lots of factors other than yeast and temperature that determines the rise in that narrow cylinder. Dough strength, hydration level and technique come to mind. An example from a recent test I did where I wanted to compare my normal dough to a havily mixed dough. They were made as identically as possible save for mixing times, and the effect on the pluviometer rise was huge. When the control batch was sitting ready at 27 (~70%), the overmixed dough was still showing 20 (~25%).

It's a crutch for sure, but a useful one I think.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2021, 02:44:26 AM by Arne_Jervell »

Offline Pete_da_Bayer

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Re: Pizza Party on Gabriola Island
« Reply #1513 on: April 05, 2021, 08:58:28 AM »
Thank´s a lot for your answers and the link to the video. It´s really intersting. It looks like the guys from Lilla Napoli use the pluvio once they make they dough and again when they make the doughballs. Unfortunately I haven´t found a video, that shows at which level they start baking. Guess i gotta buy the book one day.
I think it`s really cool, what they did. I don´t think i have the guts to quit my job and start a pizzeria in a shack. A visit of their place is definetely on my list as soon as things get back to normal and the situation allows to travel again. Wish you all the best and a happy remaining easter monday.
Cheers
Peter

Offline Icelandr

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Re: Pizza Party on Gabriola Island
« Reply #1514 on: April 13, 2021, 11:28:58 PM »
Always it seems so long since I made a pizza but in reality it clearly is a short time. Perhaps it is the attempts to see the scale in the morning that reminds me.

A few things come to mind tonight for the bake.
I have now figured out that if you put a bit of water in the container that you are going to weigh your sourdough into, it slips out easily, lessening the tension as I scrape and parry trying to extract the last of the carefully measured sourdough.

If you forget to spray or oil the pluviometer, you will get tension headaches, not knowing if the instrument designed to make your life easier has been oiled and is accurate or going rogue . .  . I fear it was not oiled tonight, so chose to oil the operator with another glass of fine red.

A 2 pizza bake, the highlight, blush, was the change from a soft, fresh Mozzarella from Costco, to their block 27% mozzarella. It was great! No browning, good flavour, good melt.
The Margherita was good, the mushroom, red onion, red pepper, Taleggio, smoked mozzarella and capicollo post bake was a bit chewy and the fire seemed to have died in the prep.
We had fun and some nice pizza, just not spectacular pizza!

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Offline Arne_Jervell

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Re: Pizza Party on Gabriola Island
« Reply #1515 on: April 17, 2021, 06:45:22 AM »
Wonderful results, including the cheese melt. Win-win it sounds like, as that brand seems easily obtained where you live.

You have a sound lubrication regimen Greg!

Offline Icelandr

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Re: Pizza Party on Gabriola Island
« Reply #1516 on: April 24, 2021, 12:22:58 AM »
After many postponements for so many reasons, to add some tension, we turned off the heat in the house and the weather changed, so with some trepidation we decided to make a couple of pizza. Some success, but a reluctant rise due to cooler temps made for a stiffer dough, less cornichone and less relaxed and pliable to the hands.
4.35% SD, 12 hour bulk, 12 hour ball at ~20°, a bit cool or too little SD.
  • My take on 50 Kalo tomato, black olive, spinach, garlic, fresh mozzarella and a touch of cream cheese to replace the unavailable Taleggio. Nice but the dough was underfermented so a bit dense
  • Smoked salmon with Fiore Di latte, smoked mozzarella, a touch of Creme cheese, fresh chives, dill and finely sliced red onion ( Oh, and the smoked salmon was supposed to go on post bake, but . .  .)
Both would have benefited with a dough that was fully developed, but tasty!
« Last Edit: April 24, 2021, 12:33:52 AM by Icelandr »
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Offline Icelandr

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Re: Pizza Party on Gabriola Island
« Reply #1517 on: April 25, 2021, 11:53:00 PM »
It was nightly refresh time for the sourdough, as opposed to the morning refresh . . . And once again I recalled my repeated incantations,  . .  I will not adopt a pet, I will not do sourdough, too much work, feed here feed there . . .no.
You can find over the last bunch of years of posting the same reluctance, but here I am, since I believe August, feeding a pet and trying to teach it tricks or learning it’s breed and personality. Finicky comes to mind, perhaps the sign of a rare breed, or a new owner, but tonight once again I found myself making up the challenge, I need 50 grams of my sourdough to start the next refresh, to be added to 50 grams of water, 50 grams of flour and left overnight and refreshed once again. It is just a game . .  . What if I could scoop out exactly 50 grams of sourdough and drop it into the waiting jar on the scale, oh, I have played this game before, please tell me I am not the only one.
Bingo! 50 grams! Add flour Shazam! 50 grams, water  . . .zowie I must have won something!


It is then I look around wondering if someone is watching, feeling perhaps I have lost it


But everything is OK, right?


Ahhh, pizzamaking, what can go wrong, just 4 ingredients . . . .
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Offline Arne_Jervell

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Re: Pizza Party on Gabriola Island
« Reply #1518 on: April 26, 2021, 03:25:05 AM »
You are not the only one, Greg!  :-D I have found myself pondering ways of pre-packaging portions of flour and water for simple and easy feeding. Never amounted to anything of course, just my mind's way of keeping busy perhaps.

Your "50 kalò" pie look stunning!!!

Offline abelgarcia

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Re: Pizza Party on Gabriola Island
« Reply #1519 on: April 26, 2021, 03:34:49 AM »
50gr+50gr+50gr and repeat after 12 hours two times is like a music to me! I found it from youtube years ago, when Joey makes An Authentic Pizza Napoletana. Saw this about 50 times  :D
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