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Author Topic: Dough tearing and bouncing back?  (Read 391 times)

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Offline prizna

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Dough tearing and bouncing back?
« on: November 27, 2021, 03:50:24 AM »
I'm trying to figure out what happened with my pizza dough, it is a 72 hour cold fermentation dough that I have made multiple times and haven't had this problem before.

This time the dough was very hard to stretch and would bounce back and would tear. The only changes I made to my old recipe was to add an extra tsp of salt, use a cooler temperature of water (I added my IDY to a small portion of my water at 95F/35C then added that to the remainder of my room temperature water) and to knead it a bit more on the initial mix of ingredients to help incorporate the yeast a bit better.

Could any of these changes have resulted in the dough being harder to stretch? Should I not do the extra kneading? I only really kneaded until it felt very uniform and with no dry spots.


Old Recipe (Stretchable)

500g Pizza Flour
300mls Warm water
1tsp Salt
1tsp Sugar
1/2 Teaspoon IDY

New Recipe (Hard to Stretch)

500g Pizza Flour
300mls Cool water
2tsp Salt
1tsp Sugar
1/2 Teaspoon IDY

Hopefully someone can help me understand why these changes may have resulted in a less workable dough.

thanks,

Offline RHawthorne

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Re: Dough tearing and bouncing back?
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2021, 12:55:00 PM »
I would say the increased salt content is the obvious culprit. Doubling is definitely going to have a pronounced impact, and that's what you're seeing. I can't help noticing that you're measuring all of your ingredients volumetrically, and not by weight. I would recommend that you start weighing your ingredients, so that you know exactly how much of each is going into your dough, and so that you have a better idea of how they're stacking up against each other, proportionally. If you don't want to do that, I would say just be very careful about making any drastic recipe changes. Or just go back to your old recipe and leave it alone.
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Offline prizna

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Re: Dough tearing and bouncing back?
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2021, 09:11:54 PM »
I would say the increased salt content is the obvious culprit. Doubling is definitely going to have a pronounced impact, and that's what you're seeing. I can't help noticing that you're measuring all of your ingredients volumetrically, and not by weight. I would recommend that you start weighing your ingredients, so that you know exactly how much of each is going into your dough, and so that you have a better idea of how they're stacking up against each other, proportionally. If you don't want to do that, I would say just be very careful about making any drastic recipe changes. Or just go back to your old recipe and leave it alone.

Thanks, I would like to measure my ingredients by weight, unfortunately I don't have scales sensitive enough to measure small amounts accurately.

I thought that the extra tsp of salt should be fine, because doing a conversion from tsp to grams online seemed to show that it is still within the 2-3% that most people recommend.

Online scott r

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Re: Dough tearing and bouncing back?
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2021, 09:32:07 PM »
Your salt amount is fine.  What you are describing is exactly what its like to try to stretch an under fermented dough.   The cooler water you used caused your finished dough temperature to go down and that changed the point at which you want to use your dough.    Just up the yeast a little and still use that cooler water and you will be fine.   or... go back to using the same temperature water as you used before... or use the dough a few days later... or  let the dough sit out of the fridge longer before you use it.

good luck!

Offline QwertyJuan

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Re: Dough tearing and bouncing back?
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2021, 09:59:23 PM »
Your salt amount is fine.  What you are describing is exactly what its like to try to stretch an under fermented dough.   The cooler water you used caused your finished dough temperature to go down and that changed the point at which you want to use your dough.    Just up the yeast a little and still use that cooler water and you will be fine.   or... go back to using the same temperature water as you used before... or use the dough a few days later... or  let the dough sit out of the fridge longer before you use it.

good luck!

Not only that, but the amount of salt is probably retarding the fermentation process as well. His dough does indeed sound underfermented.

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Offline prizna

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Re: Dough tearing and bouncing back?
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2021, 09:59:30 PM »
Your salt amount is fine.  What you are describing is exactly what its like to try to stretch an under fermented dough.   The cooler water you used caused your finished dough temperature to go down and that changed the point at which you want to use your dough.    Just up the yeast a little and still use that cooler water and you will be fine.   or... go back to using the same temperature water as you used before... or use the dough a few days later... or  let the dough sit out of the fridge longer before you use it.

good luck!

Thanks for the reply, I'm still pretty new to working with dough so I'm not very familiar with how sensitive yeast is or how much it takes, do you have a recommendation of how much I should increase the yeast by if I was using 1/2tsp for the recipe that was under fermented?

Offline QwertyJuan

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Re: Dough tearing and bouncing back?
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2021, 10:01:59 PM »
Thanks for the reply, I'm still pretty new to working with dough so I'm not very familiar with how sensitive yeast is or how much it takes, do you have a recommendation of how much I should increase the yeast by if I was using 1/2tsp for the recipe that was under fermented?

It's not necessarily that you have too little yeast... it could be that your fridge is exceptionally cold and the yeast didn't get enough time to work. How long are you letting the dough sit out before you stretch??

Offline prizna

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Re: Dough tearing and bouncing back?
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2021, 10:09:37 PM »
It's not necessarily that you have too little yeast... it could be that your fridge is exceptionally cold and the yeast didn't get enough time to work. How long are you letting the dough sit out before you stretch??

I let it sit at room temp for about 2.5 hours.

Offline RHawthorne

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Re: Dough tearing and bouncing back?
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2021, 10:38:50 PM »
Thanks, I would like to measure my ingredients by weight, unfortunately I don't have scales sensitive enough to measure small amounts accurately.

I thought that the extra tsp of salt should be fine, because doing a conversion from tsp to grams online seemed to show that it is still within the 2-3% that most people recommend.
High accuracy scales are a lot less expensive than you might imagine. I got mine for under $15 US, and it can measure 1/100th of a gram. And I guess your salt content actually isn't all that high, but it's definitely higher than it was before. Any time somebody says they see a sudden change in how their dough turns out, I automatically look for any ingredient or process that changed, and that's the only thing I saw, besides the slightly lower water temp. I don't think that could really have a huge impact when you're letting your dough sit at room temp for 2.5 hours, unless you were using extremely cold water.
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Offline prizna

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Re: Dough tearing and bouncing back?
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2021, 11:13:33 PM »
High accuracy scales are a lot less expensive than you might imagine. I got mine for under $15 US, and it can measure 1/100th of a gram. And I guess your salt content actually isn't all that high, but it's definitely higher than it was before. Any time somebody says they see a sudden change in how their dough turns out, I automatically look for any ingredient or process that changed, and that's the only thing I saw, besides the slightly lower water temp. I don't think that could really have a huge impact when you're letting your dough sit at room temp for 2.5 hours, unless you were using extremely cold water.

Since it is a cold fermentation dough (72 hours in the fridge) I was thinking that water temperature wouldn't have a huge impact, but I guess it would lose the initial boost that warm water would give it.

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Offline RHawthorne

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Re: Dough tearing and bouncing back?
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2021, 11:33:30 PM »
Since it is a cold fermentation dough (72 hours in the fridge) I was thinking that water temperature wouldn't have a huge impact, but I guess it would lose the initial boost that warm water would give it.
I guess it depends on how warm your water is. My routine with CF is to use water at RT or more like in the low 60s, and ball and refrigerate the dough immediately after kneading. I don't see any point in using overly warm water for cold fermented dough, nor do I see any point in an extended RT fermentation period prior to CF. If you're going to do RT for anything much beyond an hour or so, I would say just let it go a full 24 hours at that temp and them ball and refrigerate the dough. The effect of cold ambient air on dough is going to be more limited if it's already had a long rise at RT, especially if you started with warm water.
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Offline prizna

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Re: Dough tearing and bouncing back?
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2021, 11:42:48 PM »
I guess it depends on how warm your water is. My routine with CF is to use water at RT or more like in the low 60s, and ball and refrigerate the dough immediately after kneading. I don't see any point in using overly warm water for cold fermented dough, nor do I see any point in an extended RT fermentation period prior to CF. If you're going to do RT for anything much beyond an hour or so, I would say just let it go a full 24 hours at that temp and them ball and refrigerate the dough. The effect of cold ambient air on dough is going to be more limited if it's already had a long rise at RT, especially if you started with warm water.

I still a little confused on what would have caused the underfermentation, I did add more salt which I know would reduce the effectiveness of the yeast, but since the salt is still within the range that people recommend, it shouldn't be a problem, I guess I just need to figure out the correct amount of yeast to use as I would like to continue using the 2 tsp of salt.

Offline RHawthorne

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Re: Dough tearing and bouncing back?
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2021, 11:47:34 PM »
I still a little confused on what would have caused the underfermentation, I did add more salt which I know would reduce the effectiveness of the yeast, but since the salt is still within the range that people recommend, it shouldn't be a problem, I guess I just need to figure out the correct amount of yeast to use as I would like to continue using the 2 tsp of salt.
You also did mention that you kneaded it a bit more, but you didn't elaborate on that at all. How much kneading are you talking about, and are you doing it by hand or by machine? I ask because the gluten in dough can definitely get overworked if you're kneading excessively, with respect to both speed and time.
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Offline prizna

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Re: Dough tearing and bouncing back?
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2021, 11:58:14 PM »
You also did mention that you kneaded it a bit more, but you didn't elaborate on that at all. How much kneading are you talking about, and are you doing it by hand or by machine? I ask because the gluten in dough can definitely get overworked if you're kneading excessively, with respect to both speed and time.

Kneading by hand, usually I mix my dough together with a butter knife in a mixing bowl, then once it starts to come together I knead it in the bowl until there are no dry spots, this time it seemed to stay dry for longer, so I ended up taking it out of the bowl and kneading on my bench for an extra 5 minutes until there were no more dry spots.

Offline RHawthorne

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Re: Dough tearing and bouncing back?
« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2021, 12:55:12 AM »
Kneading by hand, usually I mix my dough together with a butter knife in a mixing bowl, then once it starts to come together I knead it in the bowl until there are no dry spots, this time it seemed to stay dry for longer, so I ended up taking it out of the bowl and kneading on my bench for an extra 5 minutes until there were no more dry spots.
That doesn’t sound excessive to me.
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Online scott r

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Re: Dough tearing and bouncing back?
« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2021, 07:38:46 AM »
Even if dough sits out for 2.5 hours before going into the fridge the finished dough temperature when done with mixing has a profound effect on how long it will take your dough to be ready.  A change in as little as 5 degrees can do what is being described. 

Offline prizna

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Re: Dough tearing and bouncing back?
« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2021, 08:08:53 AM »
Even if dough sits out for 2.5 hours before going into the fridge the finished dough temperature when done with mixing has a profound effect on how long it will take your dough to be ready.  A change in as little as 5 degrees can do what is being described.

Just to clarify, I meant that I have it sit for 2.5 hours after the 72 hours in the fridge, to bring it back to room temperature.

Also you mentioned before that I could keep everything the same (extra salt and lower water temp) but to add more yeast, how much more yeast would you suggest for my recipe, I'm not very familiar with how much yeast is needed.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2021, 08:31:19 AM by prizna »

Online scott r

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Re: Dough tearing and bouncing back?
« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2021, 08:39:10 AM »
I would start by increasing the yeast amount by 20-25 percent. 

Also be aware that you really have to keep ALL of your variables that would effect dough temperature the same, not just water temperature and room temperature. Things like what kind of container your dough is going in as it rests in the fridge.... thick glass or thin thin plastic.... using one vs the other will change the amount of yeast that is needed. 

Offline prizna

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Re: Dough tearing and bouncing back?
« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2021, 08:47:53 AM »
I would start by increasing the yeast amount by 20-25 percent. 

Also be aware that you really have to keep ALL of your variables that would effect dough temperature the same, not just water temperature and room temperature. Things like what kind of container your dough is going in as it rests in the fridge.... thick glass or thin thin plastic.... using one vs the other will change the amount of yeast that is needed.

Thanks for the help.

But just to check ingredients wise, my recipe should be fine? I just need to figure out a few things with temperature or up the yeast a little?

Online scott r

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Re: Dough tearing and bouncing back?
« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2021, 09:17:52 AM »
Yes, I think the recipe is good.   

In addition to what you wrote, another option could have simply just been to let the dough sit out on your counter for longer than 2.5 hours before you used it.  As you progress with your baking experience you will reach a point where you can tell by looking at the dough that it was too early to use it and it needed more time.

If you want to take the extra effort to get things really consistent I think its important to weigh your flour (at least) if possible. Teaspoon and tablespoon measures are usually ok for the smaller quantity stuff, but that was also a good point made earlier that the scales for measuring those small quantities are usually under $15 on amazon.  Liquid measures can be consistent if measuring volumetrically, so its most important to get the flour weighed out if nothing else. 




« Last Edit: November 28, 2021, 09:22:10 AM by scott r »

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