Pizza Making Forum

Pizza Making => New York Style => Topic started by: pizzablogger on July 27, 2011, 01:29:23 PM

Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: pizzablogger on July 27, 2011, 01:29:23 PM
I have always been intrigued by the evolution of NY pizza to the point where I found myself researching the invention of the planetary mixer (Hobart), deck ovens and refrigeration, and when they were commercialized on a fairly wide scale, and also the evolution of flours, from the early all-purpose flours, bread flours, and finally high-gluten flours. I doubt that that there are many pizza operators today in the metro NYC area who are making their doughs by hand but I would imagine that there are many who are still using same day doughs made with all-purpose flours (scott123 may be able to comment on this). It was also interesting to read about when sugar and oil were added to the NY doughs, after deck ovens were commercialized for baking pizzas.

Peter

Peter, I have been thinking about this a lot over the past couple of months and maybe you could shed some light based on your previous studies.

One of the biggest sea changes, as far as I can tell, in the New York pizza scene was the creation and wide spread use of the commercial gas fired deck oven (Hobart was rocking mixers before 1920).  It seems there may be a combination of events involved here:

1.Several sources have cited one of the drivers for increased pizzeria demand was the return of soldiers stationed in Italy after World War II. US troops were in and around the Campania region and Naples beginning around March ’43 and remained in Italy for a couple of years. So that means war veterans were returning home in ’45 onward and wanting some of that pizza action.

I know Baker’s Pride had the first deck oven in 1945, but when exactly did their use become widespread?

One of the earlier surviving examples of a NY-Style gas deck oven pizzeria is Ray’s on Prince Street, which opened in 1959. Surely there were other places which were operating gas deck ovens before Ray’s? Eddie’s in Long Island was.

2.The coal oven “ban” in New York City. I have heard several different versions of what this actually is, but as of yet have not been able to determine when this went into effect.

Was the “coal oven ban (COB)” instituted before or around the time gas fired deck ovens became available? If so, the increased demand for pizza from Southern Italian based WWII soldiers (if this is in fact true), coupled with a real challenge in opening up the more traditional coal oven pizzerias, would have paved the way for deck ovens with little to no competition.

About the CBO. Some have said certain pizzerias are grandfathered in...meaning a coal fired pizzeria in existance before the CBO is allowed to continue using their ovens and open new restaurants. I do not subscribe to this.

From what I can tell from asking various NY pizza enthusiasts and some shop owners, the CBO “grandfathering” issue surrounds the actual coal oven itself. For example, if an old bakery had a coal-fired oven, which is still in the space, but is either not functioning any longer or was converted to another fuel source (gas, oil, etc), the oven itself is grandfathered and can be refurbished to use coal. If a person renovating an old building discovered that there is an old coal-fired oven hidden behind newer walls, etc, that oven is grandfathered in and could be put back into service as a coal fired oven. Still, I have never confirmed if this is the case (although this very thing happened in the Village years ago...a person renovated an old bakery space and refurbished the coal oven for pizza making).

I still may call the NY Department of Health or the NY Dept of Environment (or applicable legislative body) to find out more about this. There is even some confusion as to what parts of the city the CBO applies to....with some citing Manhattan as the only affected borough.

Long story short, such a ban would certainly have sky rocketed the demand for gas fired deck ovens if it was in effect before the availability of the deck oven (the relative slow rate of opening coal oven pizzerias in NYC in the earlier days may hint that the CBO was implemented earlier on???).

The cheapening of the process
From books like Ed Levine’s A Slice of Heaven and from me asking Domenico DeMarco some questions when I first visited him (eating literally with only one other person in the shop with the doors locked for the end of lunch break) and again during subsequent visits (all during off-peak non crowded hours), the pizzerias “back in the day” used ingredients much more like what the original New York-Neapolitan coal fired joints (Lombardi’s, Totonno’s, John’s and Patsy’s were all open by 1933) were using. ...whole milk mozzarella, uncooked sauce made from good tomatoes, olive oil, house made or locally produced sausage, etc. It makes sense earlier deck-oven joints likely started down this path as well, being that is what the best thought of pizzerias in NYC at the time were already doing.

DeMarco has been in Brooklyn since 1959 and making pies at DiFara since 1964. He mentioned pretty much any corner pizzeria in Brooklyn back then was likely to be making their own sauce, not using sugar, whole milk cheese, etc. And these pizzerias were using deck ovens. He mentioned the change in generations from original immigrants to younger family removed from tradition may have been a factor.

So somewhere along the way the whole process devolved into the NY-Style (street slice) horsecrap it is today. Often too much sugar in the dough, darker tasting marinara-ish sauces or sauces with a noticeable sugar note to it in many parts of the country and the use of just bad tasting, rubbery cheese. Even in NYC the use of pre-shredded part-skim mozzarella in many instances....which is just quite frankly an inferior product I cannot stand.

NYC is so lucky. Pizza enthusiasts get into the nitty-gritty over which of the coal-oven pizzerias is “the best” (always ultimately a subjective endeavor). That Lombardi’s is a “tourist trap” (it is) making over-hyped pizza (it does), Grimaldi’s has “slipped” (it has), Patsy’s “blows away” Totonno’s (actually a coin flip on a given day) etc, etc. This has especially accelerated with the focus and growth (and somewhat waning of popularity of coal oven joints) of high quality Neapolitan or Neapolitan-inspired pizzerias, with Franny’s in Brooklyn and Una Pizza Napoletana being two of the earlier examples that really pushed the envelope just before the whole Neapolitan boom exploded.

Yet when I eat a slice or pizza from Lombardi’s, or Totonno’s, etc....often I laugh at myself and the sometimes heated arguments I have had with friends in NYC about such places. Because say what you want, the original New York-Neapolitan coal-oven pizzerias are making a product that is still better than what 95% (if not higher than that)of the pizzerias in America are cranking out.

So I am always intrigued about this type of history and know people like Pete-zza, ScottR, Scott123, etc have much more knowledge about this than I do.

And I get very excited when I see people like Chau and others here making pies more influeced by the New York-Neapolitan style pizzas. Pizzas in this style reflect the birthplace of pizza in this country, the grit and pride of the earliest trendsetters and earliest pie-men (not pizzaiolos)we have to reflect on in America.  I love dearly Neapolitan style pizza.....I make pizzas in that vein and crave visiting retail establishments selling that style more than any other. And yet I have always had an itch in the back of my throat....to see more people take the techniques and passion displayed on this forum and re-envigorate this style (NY-Neapolitan) to new heights.

Blah, blah, blah
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: scott r on July 27, 2011, 03:26:02 PM
I wish I had more knowledge about he history!    I know im definitely rocking the NY coal oven style pies now, but I definitely would love to hear more about the history of it and how it evolved...and devolved.   Someone contacted me recently about a book they were writing on regional pizza styles.   Hopefully this is going to shed some light on the evolution.     
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: TXCraig1 on July 27, 2011, 03:31:58 PM
If you find an answer Chau please let us know.  I have always been curious what the "coal" that they burn is also.  I had always decided it was anthracite, but that was only a speculation.

That is correct. Grimaldi's even states as much on their website: http://www.grimaldispizzeria.com/pizza

CL
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: pizzablogger on July 27, 2011, 03:34:27 PM
That is correct. Grimaldi's even states as much on their website: http://www.grimaldispizzeria.com/pizza

CL

Yes, at least the coal oven joints here in Baltimore are burning this too.

You may see a growing rise in the incidence of "Reforested Coal". Coal which is being mined from an area where there is a covenant for the land to be re-forested once the coal has been extracted from the site. --K
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: Jet_deck on July 27, 2011, 03:36:07 PM

.....  About the CBO. Some have said certain pizzerias are grandfathered in...meaning a coal fired pizzeria in existance before the CBO is allowed to continue using their ovens and open new restaurants. I do not subscribe to this.....



I enjoy Chau's enthusiam also.  I hope Peter decides to split this topic so we can visit more about the physical nature of the ovens and exactly what they burned.

Kelly, I don't get why you would not want a coal fired oven to be grandfathered in.  Are you saying they weren't as good, or didn't produce good pizza?  Explain it really slowly, Im from the South, and we don't know what NY pizza is genrally. ;D
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: Jet_deck on July 27, 2011, 03:40:43 PM
URBN Pizza, Vista, Ca.  Reading (PA) Anthricite Coal
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: TXCraig1 on July 27, 2011, 03:47:19 PM
2.The coal oven “ban” in New York City. I have heard several different versions of what this actually is, but as of yet have not been able to determine when this went into effect.

About the CBO. Some have said certain pizzerias are grandfathered in...meaning a coal fired pizzeria in existance before the CBO is allowed to continue using their ovens and open new restaurants. I do not subscribe to this.

From what I can tell from asking various NY pizza enthusiasts and some shop owners, the CBO “grandfathering” issue surrounds the actual coal oven itself. For example, if an old bakery had a coal-fired oven, which is still in the space, but is either not functioning any longer or was converted to another fuel source (gas, oil, etc), the oven itself is grandfathered and can be refurbished to use coal. If a person renovating an old building discovered that there is an old coal-fired oven hidden behind newer walls, etc, that oven is grandfathered in and could be put back into service as a coal fired oven. Still, I have never confirmed if this is the case (although this very thing happened in the Village years ago...a person renovated an old bakery space and refurbished the coal oven for pizza making).

I still may call the NY Department of Health or the NY Dept of Environment (or applicable legislative body) to find out more about this. There is even some confusion as to what parts of the city the CBO applies to....with some citing Manhattan as the only affected borough.

It may be that the coal oven ban is little more than a myth perpetrated by the operators of coal ovens who would like to keep the competition down. I have a friend in Manhattan who is in a position to know and he has told me as much. If you call the health department, I would be interested to hear what they say, though I would only believe the answer if I actually read it written in the city code.

CL
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: pizzablogger on July 27, 2011, 04:04:52 PM
I enjoy Chau's enthusiam also.  I hope Peter decides to split this topic so we can visit more about the physical nature of the ovens and exactly what they burned.

Kelly, I don't get why you would not want a coal fired oven to be grandfathered in.  Are you saying they weren't as good, or didn't produce good pizza?  Explain it really slowly, Im from the South, and we don't know what NY pizza is genrally. ;D

I meant that I don't believe that explanation for what the "grandfathering" issue refers to.

Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: chickenparm on July 27, 2011, 04:31:39 PM
A Frank Pepe's opened up in Yonkers not too long ago.They have a coal burning oven there.Then again that is part of Westchester County,not NY City.Just thought some of you may like to know.
 :)
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: pizzablogger on July 27, 2011, 05:10:25 PM
It is a city issue.
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: Jet_deck on July 28, 2011, 10:29:53 AM
I just got off the phone with Scott Klein at Reading Anthracite Coal.  He said their sales to pizzerias had increased alot in the last 5 years.  He had no specifics on exactly what the outcome was, but that his company had helped WoodStone develop a proprietary grate for their coal to sit on inside their ovens.  The grate lets a specific amout of air to the coals and lets the smaller burned stuff fall down into the ash catcher.

The minimum order is 1 ton (quantity 40; 50# bags stretched wrapped on a pallet)  the coal is $200 for 1 ton, plus freight.  Anybody want to trade coal for some New York AP flour?

http://www.woodstone-corp.com/products_ovens_firedeck_9660_coal.htm (http://www.woodstone-corp.com/products_ovens_firedeck_9660_coal.htm)
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: Jackie Tran on July 28, 2011, 10:45:59 AM
Nice work Gene.  Damn, that would be a great deal if shipping is reasonable.
Anyone see any issues with making NP style pies with coal?

Chau
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: communist on July 28, 2011, 10:58:24 AM
The Woodstone coal oven retails for 84,000 :o
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: pizzablogger on July 28, 2011, 11:02:51 AM
Nice work Gene.  Damn, that would be a great deal if shipping is reasonable.
Anyone see any issues with making NP style pies with coal?

Chau

No.

Although I remember Anthony Mangieri citing in a video that coal was too dry of a heat source to make good pizza with. He added something along the lines of it is like cooking pizza in a locomotive or something like that.

To be fair, I think the dimensions and shape of most of the coal fired pizza ovens in NYC (usually more rectangularly shaped ovens, some of them quite long) have as much to do with that as anything else.
--K
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: pizzablogger on July 28, 2011, 11:08:00 AM
The Woodstone coal oven retails for 84,000 :o

WoodStone is quite expensive. And their performance is questionable in light of the cost.

Coal burns very, very hot. Joe Squared in Baltimore is burning coal in an EarthStone oven. He had to have a titanium grate to protect the floor of the oven where the coal pile goes. If I recall correctly, I think that grate warped at one point. I'll check with Joe to confirm. Keep in mind titanium, even though in everything from bike frames to rings now, was initially not easy to obtain and was primarilly used in things like the leading edges of the wings and control surfaces of supersonic fighter aircraft....slicing through the atmosphere at multiples of the speed of sound heats things up very much (not to mention the incredible g forces placed on control surfaces and the airframe during combat maneuvers...strong stuff).....so coal (potentially) warping a titanium grate is hot, hot stuff!
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: Jet_deck on July 28, 2011, 12:00:06 PM
At the end of this article, in the white box, Vic Amato says he build Lombardi's and Tottono.  I'll bet this guy could tell a few stories.

http://www.pizzamarketplace.com/article/99105/Interest-in-coal-fired-ovens-heats-up (http://www.pizzamarketplace.com/article/99105/Interest-in-coal-fired-ovens-heats-up)

Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: Jackie Tran on July 28, 2011, 12:04:02 PM
Good to know Kelly.  I'm thinking I could lay down a layer of firebrick on the side of the coals.  Hot is good, especially up at 5000ft where the air is thinner.

Chau
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: pizzablogger on July 28, 2011, 12:15:26 PM
Hey Craig.....

Quote
Contrary to lore that the city prohibits the use of coal-fired ovens, a spokeswoman for the city Department of Environmental Protection said they were not banned.

EDIT: Would still like clarification if she is referring to already existing ovens or if one could build a new one.

Jackie, this coal oven is so hot it cracked the sidewalk above it....and is able to melt snow:

http://articles.nydailynews.com/2011-04-13/local/29434373_1_bushwick-construction-office-coal-fired-ovens

I forget which pizzeria it was, but years ago a NYC coal oven partially melted a steel support beam under the brick and caused a portion of the oven to sag. Hot!  :)
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: TXCraig1 on July 28, 2011, 12:16:04 PM
WoodStone is quite expensive. And their performance is questionable in light of the cost.

Coal burns very, very hot. Joe Squared in Baltimore is burning coal in an EarthStone oven. He had to have a titanium grate to protect the floor of the oven where the coal pile goes. If I recall correctly, I think that grate warped at one point. I'll check with Joe to confirm. Keep in mind titanium, even though in everything from bike frames to rings now, was initially not easy to obtain and was primarilly used in things like the leading edges of the wings and control surfaces of supersonic fighter aircraft....slicing through the atmosphere at multiples of the speed of sound heats things up very much (not to mention the incredible g forces placed on control surfaces and the airframe during combat maneuvers...strong stuff).....so coal (potentially) warping a titanium grate is hot, hot stuff!

The melting point of titanium is about 3000F vs 2700F for steel or iron (not cast iron which is closer to 2200F). It's the strength/weight ratio not the melting point why it is used in aerospace applications. I'd be surprised if you could get anywhere near 2000F with coal in a WFO. I would think closer to 1000-1200F at the base of the fire. You just don't have the necessary airflow in a WFO. I bet if you tried to put on too much coal trying to get the oven temp up near 1000, you could actually smother the fire. With pea-sized coal and proper airflow, coal-fired boilers reach ~2000-2200F at the base of the fire. Larger coal chunks and limited airflow would be much less hot.  The temperature above the coal fire would be a couple hundred degrees less than the base. In a WFO, fire and ash management are both going to be a problem with coal. I think burning coal in a WFO is inadvisable at best - but not necessarily because of the temperature.

CL
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: pizzablogger on July 28, 2011, 12:26:41 PM
The melting point of titanium is about 3000F vs 2700F for steel or iron (not cast iron which is closer to 2200F). It's the strength/weight ratio not the melting point why it is used in aerospace applications.
CL

Correct

It's not a round shaped WFO, but the new joint in town, Chazz:A Bronx Original has a coal chamber on the right side feeding heat into the cooking area on the left. The pizza maker cited the coal pile itself can get to 2200°F.

The oven was made in Australia and has an additional temperature regulator in the cooking side that is essentially a steel pipe which shoots flame towards the ceiling of the chamber if temps go below a certain level. The rocketing flames shooting out of it is pretty intense and is highly reminiscent of a KISS concert happening inside of the oven.
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: Jet_deck on July 28, 2011, 12:29:23 PM
... I think burning coal in a WFO is inadvisable at best - but not necessarily because of the temperature.

CL

Craig, If I get some coal can I try it in the Acunto first, before I melt the stainless roof in mine?  Your friend Jet.
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: TXCraig1 on July 28, 2011, 01:40:46 PM
Craig, If I get some coal can I try it in the Acunto first, before I melt the stainless roof in mine?  Your friend Jet.

You can put coal in my oven when you pry the peel from my cold dead hands. :-D
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: Pete-zza on July 28, 2011, 01:56:46 PM
When I conducted my research on the evolutionary aspects of the NY pizza style, while sitting behind my keyboard in Texas, I was looking mostly for broad strokes and timelines. From time to time, I summarized what I had learned in various posts, including:

Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11816.msg109739/topicseen.html#msg109739 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11816.msg109739/topicseen.html#msg109739) ;
Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8789.msg76171/topicseen.html#msg76171 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8789.msg76171/topicseen.html#msg76171) ;
Reply 12 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10441.msg92369/topicseen.html#msg92369 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10441.msg92369/topicseen.html#msg92369) ; and
Reply 44 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13347.msg133246/topicseen.html#msg133246 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13347.msg133246/topicseen.html#msg133246)

One of the posts that got me thinking about these matters is the post by our esteemed member Ron Molinaro (ilpizzaiolo) at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1053.msg9384/topicseen.html#msg9384 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1053.msg9384/topicseen.html#msg9384) where Ron discussed changes that took place with dough formulations when deck ovens started to be used by pizza operators. Kelly is correct that the deck oven was invented in the mid-1940s (see the historical blurb at the Bakers Pride website at http://www.bakerspride.com/about.asp (http://www.bakerspride.com/about.asp)). What isn't clear, as Kelly also noted, is when pizza operators really started to use such ovens to make the NY style pizza. It almost seems like the old pizza masters with their coal-fired ovens ruled the roost for many years before deck ovens, and what we now know as the NY street style pizza, caught on and went on to completely overtake the coal-fired pizza business in terms of volume, a condition which persists to this day even with the expansion of the old pizza names like Grimaldi's, Patsy's, John's and even DiFara's.

It also isn't clear when pizza operators went to commercial refrigeration to make cold fermented doughs. I did a fair amount of research using the Google news archive search feature and, as best I can tell, it wasn't until about the 1970s where I started to find reports of cold fermenting of doughs in a commercial environment. The use of cold fermentation seemed to nicely complement the use of deck ovens, with many of the benefits mentioned in Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11816.msg109739/topicseen.html#msg109739. (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11816.msg109739/topicseen.html#msg109739.)

For the development of flours over the years, I found a lot of useful information of a historical and chronological nature at the General Mills website at http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/ourheritage.aspx. (http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/ourheritage.aspx.) I also used the Google news archive search feature to find out when NYC pizza operators went to high-gluten flour. As best I can tell, it was perhaps sometime in the 1970s. Prior to that time, high-gluten flour was used mainly to make bagels. So, arguably the NYC bagel industry may be given credit or blame for the NY style pizza that is now made with high-gluten flour. It is also important to keep in mind that over the years millers and plant biologists were not just standing still. New varieties of wheat grains were developed with better features, characteristics and performance than their predecessor varieties. Today's all-purpose flour bears little relationship other than name to the all-purpose flours that existed at the turn of the 20th century. It is also not clear when Dom DeMarco first started to use 00 flours. When I first heard about 00 flours back in 2003 or thereabouts, there were only a couple of brands of 00 flour at the retail level although I am sure that there were more choices at the foodservice level.

Kelly also made reference to increased demand for pizza when soldiers returned home after WWII. One of the interesting tidbits that I read somewhere is that active dry yeast (ADY) was developed at least in part to cater to that demand. In fact, Tom Lehmann once noted (at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7527&p=50956&hilit=#p50956 (http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7527&p=50956&hilit=#p50956)) that ADY was developed for home use, not commercial use. A key feature for that yeast is that it had to be rehydrated in warm water before using. By so doing, home bakers stood a much better chance of succeeding with their baked goods. At that time, pizza operators used only fresh yeast. Instant dry yeast (IDY) wasn't developed until sometime in the 1970s.

Speaking about pizza in evolutionary terms seems quite natural. There were major inventions that, when adopted commercially, changed the entire NY pizza industry. Yet, there were perhaps aspects of foot dragging, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it", which discouraged change, or old habits that died hard that made change resistant.

Peter

EDIT (4/3/14): For the Wayback Machine version of the above GM link, see http://web.archive.org/web/20100105084108/http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/ourheritage.aspx (http://web.archive.org/web/20100105084108/http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/ourheritage.aspx)

EDIT (9/3/21): For a replacement for the inoperative PMQ link, see https://thinktank.pmq.com/t/yeast/10727/2
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: pizzablogger on July 28, 2011, 07:05:32 PM
Kelly also made reference to increased demand for pizza when soldiers returned home after WWII.

Peter, interestingly Ira Nevin, the man behind the helm at Bakers Pride when their first gas fired deck oven became available in 1945, was a returning soldier from WWII himself.

This also gets me to thinking about the ovens at DiFara. His deck ovens are quite old, stainless steel doored ovens. I've never asked him if those are the original deck ovens from when the shop opened in 1964 or not. Regardless, his oven is able to cook at a higher temperature than many of the deck ovens available on the market (the newer high temperature Bakers Pride Super Decks are relatively new in comparison). Which brings to question whether the deck ovens being produced back in the 1940s and onward were all higher temperature models like the one employed by DeMarco on Avenue J?

If so, it may be that whenever the deck ovens with the 550° to 650°F max thermostat temps more commonly seen today (lower temps than DiFara) became the norm, it was then that fresh mozzarella (fior-di-latte) gave way to the lower moisture mozzarella more commonly seen and sugars and oils started being added to the doughs to help with the lower temperatures. Again, pure speculation on my part. --K
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: chickenparm on July 28, 2011, 07:30:17 PM
Hey guys,

I'm very interested in the History and evolution of the NY pizza making.Have a question though,was a Bari oven a Bakers pride model or a spin off?Were they popular in the City as well?Here is a picture of the Family and Bari oven at pizza place I grew up with many years ago.This picture is from the '70's I believe.This place was in mid state NY,in Northern Westchester County.





Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on July 28, 2011, 08:56:54 PM
I am not sure all of these articles or accurate. Anyone can correct it, if one or more of these articles are wrong.

This blog gives a good glimpse of Di Fara’s. 

https://homeslicepizza.wordpress.com/2010/10/01/the-mythic-difara/

This article says:

http://kitchenproject.com/history/pizza/index.htm

Pizza Only Became Popular in the US after WWII

"Pizza came to America at the end of the nineteenth century with immigrants from southern Italy. Italian immigrants built commercial bakeries and backyard ovens to produce bread they had eaten in Italy. In addition, Italian bakers used their ovens for flatbreads: northern Italians baked focaccia, while southern Italians made pizza. Initially, pizza was made by Italians for Italians, but hy the late 1930s after the Great Depression many Americans were eating pizza in Italian restaurants and pizzerias on the East and West Coasts...Over time, two basic and distinct styles of American pizza appeared. A thin-crust pizza, commonly called "East Coast" or "New York" style, is made with just a few toppings like pizza made in Naples.

http://whatscookingamerica.net/History/Pizza/PizzaHistory.htm

20th Century

NOTE: For many people, especially among the Italian-American population, the first American pizzas were known as Tomato Pie. Even in the present 21st century, present-day tomato pie is most commonly found in the Northeastern United States, especially in Italian bakeries in central New York. Tomato pies are built the opposite of pizza pies - first the cheese, then the toppings, and then the sauce.

1905 - Gennaro Lombardi claims to have opened the first United States Pizzeria in New York City at 53 ½ Spring Street. Lombardo is now known as America's "Patriaca della Pizza." It wasn't until the early 1930s that he added tables and chairs and sold spaghetti as well.

1943 - Chicago-style deep-dish pizza (a pizza with a flaky crust that rises an inch or more above the plate and surrounds deep piles of toppings) was created by Ike Sewell at his bar and grill called Pizzeria Uno.

1945 - With the stationing of American soldiers in Italy during World War II (1941-1945) came a growing appreciation of pizza. When the soldiers returned from war, they brought with them a taste for pizza.

1948 - The first commercial pizza-pie mix, "Roman Pizza Mix," was produced in Worcester, Massachusetts by Frank A. Fiorello.

1950s - It wasn't until the 1950s that Americans really started noticing pizza. Celebrities of Italian origin, such as Jerry Colonna, Frank Sinatra, Jimmy Durante, and baseball star Joe DiMaggio all devoured pizzas. It is also said that the line from the song by famous singer, Dean Martin; "When the moon hits your eye like a big pizza pie, that amore" set America singing and eating pizzas.

1957 - Frozen pizzas were introduced and found in local grocery stores. The first was marketed by the Celentano Brothers. Pizza soon became the most popular of all frozen food.

Another article about NY style pizza and time lines, if you go down on page.

http://www.experienceproject.com/stories/Am-Welcoming-You-To-Kik-Culinary-Corner-And-History-Of-Some/866541

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: shuboyje on July 28, 2011, 10:06:41 PM
I've alluded to it many times, and I'll say it again here.  I do not believe the coal oven temperature claims.  Plain and simple.  The two coal oven pizzerias here(one has a firedeck the other has a $100,000 custom build oven from some guy out east) operate their ovens at under 600F.  Both claim ridiculous temperatures, one claiming 1200F.  One of the them gets mention in national media and rankings from time to time and claim to have been trained in New Haven(can't remember which pizzeria).

In my opinion coal does not generate enough open flame to create the top heat needed for a balanced bake at the temperatures coal oven places like to claim.  Again in my opinion this is confirmed by the bake times. 

As for burning coal in a standard wood fired oven...good luck, lol.  A few years ago when my first oven was new I bought into the hype that coal ran hotter, so I got a bag of coal to give it a go.  To this day I've never got a single lump to ignite in a wood fired oven.  I've tried elevated grates, I've loaded it onto a pile of coals in a 1000F oven.  No go.  I've got about 3/4 of a bag left if anybody wants to drive to suburban Detroit and pick it up. 
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: chickenparm on July 28, 2011, 10:26:44 PM
Norma,
Thanks for posting all that info.I seen similar stories on TV as well.Always good to read more about it.
 8)
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: pizzablogger on July 28, 2011, 10:32:14 PM
I've alluded to it many times, and I'll say it again here.  I do not believe the coal oven temperature claims.  Plain and simple.  The two coal oven pizzerias here(one has a firedeck the other has a $100,000 custom build oven from some guy out east) operate their ovens at under 600F.  Both claim ridiculous temperatures, one claiming 1200F.  One of the them gets mention in national media and rankings from time to time and claim to have been trained in New Haven(can't remember which pizzeria).

In my opinion coal does not generate enough open flame to create the top heat needed for a balanced bake at the temperatures coal oven places like to claim.  Again in my opinion this is confirmed by the bake times. 

As for burning coal in a standard wood fired oven...good luck, lol.  A few years ago when my first oven was new I bought into the hype that coal ran hotter, so I got a bag of coal to give it a go.  To this day I've never got a single lump to ignite in a wood fired oven.  I've tried elevated grates, I've loaded it onto a pile of coals in a 1000F oven.  No go.  I've got about 3/4 of a bag left if anybody wants to drive to suburban Detroit and pick it up. 

It depends on where in the oven the temps mentioned are measured from. I think too many places site the temperatures the coal pile itself can reach, which is irrelevant because the pizza is not placed on the pile.
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on July 28, 2011, 10:35:48 PM
Norma,
Thanks for posting all that info.I seen similar stories on TV as well.Always good to read more about it.
 8)

Bill,

I don't know if everything is accurate, but this website, does look accurate.  http://foodtimeline.org/

This is supposed to be from the food time line for pizza.  http://www.foodtimeline.org/foodpies.html#pizza

Time line for NY style

http://www.foodtimeline.org/foodpies.html#nypizza

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: chickenparm on July 28, 2011, 11:00:05 PM
It depends on where in the oven the temps mentioned are measured from. I think too many places site the temperatures the coal pile itself can reach, which is irrelevant because the pizza is not placed on the pile.

Thats a great way to explain it. The Frank Pepe pizza place I spoke about,uses a coal fired oven,yet they bake their pies around 600 degrees F or so.I do not doubt peak temps can reach very high levels in coal ovens,I think its more of a WOW factor to tell the customers about,a sales pitch than anything.
 :)



Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: Jackie Tran on July 28, 2011, 11:06:55 PM
Thank you for typing and posting this history lesson Kelly.  I really enjoyed reading it and looking forward to the rest of the article.  Interesting to read that American pizza has some roots in bread making.

Chau
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on July 29, 2011, 09:18:09 AM
How 'Italian Food' Became A Global Sensation

http://www.npr.org/2011/03/24/134628158/how-italian-food-became-a-global-sensation

Listen to part of the story: http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=134628158&m=134818916

John F. Mariani book “How Italian Food Conquered the World", can be looked inside, at the below link, for other references, what pizza might been like in NY in older days, that other references might be found on the web.

http://www.amazon.com/How-Italian-Food-Conquered-World/dp/0230104398

History of Blodgett ovens.

http://www.blodgett.com/history.htm and http://www.fundinguniverse.com/company-histories/Blodgett-Holdings-Inc-Company-History.html

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: pizzablogger on July 29, 2011, 10:44:43 AM
I've got a copy of that 1956 NY Times article mentioned in my previous, long story about Lombardi's & New York Pizza (to be continued).

The 1956 article sheds further light on the expanding popularity of pizza, its threat to topple the hot dog as America's favorite food, mechanization of the pizza process, etc.

Interestingly, towards the end of the article when the reviewer, Herbert Mitgang, is at Lombardi's, the following quote about the pizza which was made specifically for Mitgang:

"It [the pizza] had been in the oven for 12 minutes at 300°F".

Much longer bake times than the pies now being made at Lombardi's and the other coal-oven joints in NYC. I wonder if that is how they were made in the very beginning, but Gennaro Lombardi himself was there during the interview, so I imagine it would have to be similar to the way it was always done.

I'll also post the NY Times article later when I have time, as it is also a good read. --K
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on July 29, 2011, 06:36:00 PM
There is an article on slice.seriouseats today, by Scott Wiener, on the story of coal-fired ovens.

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2011/07/scotts-pizza-chronicles-rise-and-fall-and-rise-of-the-coal-oven.html

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: Jet_deck on August 02, 2011, 09:24:38 AM
I just got off the phone with Scott Klein at Reading Anthracite Coal.  


He gave me a freight quote of $490 + $200 for the coal = $690 for a ton of coal delivered to Texas  :'(.  I will continue to look for another source of a smaller amount.
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: Jet_deck on August 03, 2011, 12:25:28 AM
I have some thoughts on this coal oven thing/ the beginnig of NY style pizza that I would like for anyone to comment about.

 These guys are baking pizzas in a bread oven?  I respect the fact that they are using the oven that they have available.  The forum has a double handful of wood fired/ propane fired/ whatever fired ovens with low domes that cannot reproduce what style they were accustomed to in Italy.

Is there a possiblity that the NY style is a "Do what you can with what you got" adaptation of the "true" neopolitan style pizza ?

It seems couragous that flour would be imported at this early stage in the game of bread/pizza making.  The incoming boats would be full of passengers and what not.  But sacks of 00 flour?


I've alluded to it many times, and I'll say it again here.  I do not believe the coal oven temperature claims....

In my opinion coal does not generate enough open flame to create the top heat needed for a balanced bake at the temperatures coal oven places like to claim. 

Again in my opinion this is confirmed by the bake times. 
[/quote]] (http://[quote author=shuboyje link=topic=14920.msg148210#msg148210 date=1311905201)
I've alluded to it many times, and I'll say it again here.  I do not believe the coal oven temperature claims....

In my opinion coal does not generate enough open flame to create the top heat needed for a balanced bake at the temperatures coal oven places like to claim. 

Again in my opinion this is confirmed by the bake times. 
[/url]

I support this claim on the top heat available, especially in a bread oven.

....   Interestingly, towards the end of the article when the reviewer, Herbert Mitgang, is at Lombardi's, the following quote about the pizza which was made specifically for Mitgang:

"It [the pizza] had been in the oven for 12 minutes at 300°F".


What kind of pizza could anybody cook at 300 degrees F for 12 minutes, that a mass of people would approve of ?

Mini rant finished/  carry on.

 :)
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: Pete-zza on August 04, 2011, 06:17:48 PM
I believe that a discussion on this forum of the evolution of the New York style pizza would not be complete without considering the many highly informative posts that Evelyne Slomon (SLICEofSLOMON) entered on the forum on this subject. So, I went back and looked at all of Evelyne’s posts to isolate those that discussed various aspects of the way that the NY style pizza evolved starting from the time of the original Lombardi’s NYC location and through the decades to modern times. I have set forth the links to those posts below, in chronological order, just as Evelyne posted them on the forum. Readers may find it useful to read other posts in the threads in which Evelyne posted in order to better understand the context of Evelyne’s posts. I found her posts fascinating to read. They even answered some of the open questions that I had on the way that the NY style pizza evolved over a period of over one hundred years.

I think that our readers will see that Evelyne is not a shrinking violet and can be quite outspoken and candid, whether it is about pizza or people. While it has been some time since Evelyne has posted on the forum, she does check in on the forum from time to time. I personally miss her contributions and would love to see her become active again, whether it is about the NY style pizza or any other pizza subject near and dear to her heart.

Evelyne Slomon’s Posts re the Evolution of the NY Style Pizza
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3944.msg28747.html#msg28747 (Reply 424)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3944.msg28814.html#msg28814 (Reply 432)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg28856.html#msg28856 (Reply 464)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3399.msg28955.html#msg28955 (Reply 29)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3399.msg28970.html#msg28970 (Reply 36)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3443.msg29287.html#msg29287 (Reply 3)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3443.msg29310.html#msg29310 (Reply 5)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3443.msg29490.html#msg29490 (Reply 36)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3443.msg29496.html#msg29496 (Reply 38)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3443.msg29532.html#msg29532 (Reply 41)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3443.msg29544.html#msg29544 (Reply 43)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3489.msg31563.html#msg31563 (Reply 47)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3873.msg32476.html#msg32476 (Reply 8)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3873.msg32525.html#msg32525 (Reply 16)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3873.msg32537.html#msg32537 (Reply 19)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4125.msg34455.html#msg34455 (Reply 1)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1258.msg37081.html#msg37081 (Reply 298)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4477.msg37434.html#msg37434 (Reply 14)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1258.msg38358.html#msg38358 (Reply 304)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1258.msg38943.html#msg38943 (Reply 310)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1258.msg38948.html#msg38948 (Reply 312)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg41054.html#msg41054 (Reply 606)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5000.msg42171.html#msg42171 (Reply 1)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5000.msg42535.html#msg42535 (Reply 19)

Peter
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: chickenparm on August 04, 2011, 08:24:57 PM
Wow Peter,thats alot of great info there! Thanks for doing all that work.
 8)
I read a few of them and wow,I wish I had read them before or some,a little more carefully.

After browsing some info,I did not read all of it,does anyone know the Lombardi's dough recipe or was that still kept a secret by Evelyn?Just curious,If it was posted,I havent gotten that far yet.
 :)

Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: texmex on August 05, 2011, 09:15:36 AM
Peter, you really know how to spin a tale and keep things even more interesting here. 

Well, I don't exactly mean spin a tale...but these concentrated specific link heavy threads are a fascinating insight to the inner workings of  pizza fanatics. 
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: Pete-zza on August 05, 2011, 11:27:07 AM
After browsing some info,I did not read all of it,does anyone know the Lombardi's dough recipe or was that still kept a secret by Evelyn?Just curious,If it was posted,I havent gotten that far yet.

Bill,

Is there a particular version of a Lombardi's dough recipe that you are after? There was the original one before mixers and coolers and dry forms of yeast (ADY and IDY) were invented (but coal-fired ovens were in use), and then there is one in Evelyne's 1984 book (for the ordinary home pizza maker), and there is one that Evelyne modified from her book for our purposes on the forum, and there is the one she came up with for her own purposes (using a combination of room temperature and cold fermentation), and then there is the one Lombardi's has used in more modern times. Evelyne has even speculated that Lombardi's may be using par-baked crusts in order to meet the high volume with only one oven. The Lehmann NY style dough formulation evolved out of the Lombardi's dough but modified to use the straight-dough method and a day or more of cold fermentation, with a deck oven for baking. I believe that one might be able to piece together most of the Lombardi's dough recipes but for the one currently used, although even then one might be able to come reasonably close.

Peter
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: Pete-zza on August 05, 2011, 11:36:34 AM
Peter, you really know how to spin a tale and keep things even more interesting here. 

Well, I don't exactly mean spin a tale...but these concentrated specific link heavy threads are a fascinating insight to the inner workings of  pizza fanatics. 

Reesa,

I have Evelyne's book and there is much more on the evolution of the NY style in the posts and threads I referenced above than in her book. Evelyne also wrote one or more articles on the evolution of the NY style for Pizza Today but Pizza Today re-did their website a few years ago and since then I have not been able to locate articles that were available before the re-work. Even the archive lookback sites can't find the articles. Also, most of such articles are copyrighted and can't be reproduced here without permission.

Peter
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: chickenparm on August 05, 2011, 12:06:59 PM
Peter,

I was just curious as to what they did in the old days.Not after a particular kind,just like reading about all this.

Thanks!



Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: pizzablogger on August 05, 2011, 02:07:59 PM
Peter, thanks for posting those links.

There is indeed much more information there about pizza in New York than there is in TPB. I just printed all of those posts and am going through them in detail.

I also now have 125 articles I have printed, predominately from the NY Times, but a couple from the New Yorker as well, starting as far back as pizza goes in those archives (at this point most of them from around the WWII years). I have used up my monthly allotment of NY Times archive views for this month (allowed 100 per month), but will resume next month. Some interesting articles for sure, and Evelyne's posts help give credence to many of them. I may eventually make a very informal, unofficial, history of NYC pizza and post it here, being sure to cite resources, articles, etc (no copying of articles in their entirety).

What is intriguing is that Sloman's various material (TPB and posts here) shows that Lombardi's originally utilized the cheese first, then sauce, romano and olive oil sequencing that is used at Totonno's as well. We know that Anthony "Totonno" Pero of Totonno's and John Sasso of John's worked at Lombardi's before opening their own shops. However, Evelyne also mentions that Gennaro Lombardi sponsored other immigrants for 2-3 years who eventually went on to open their own shops elsewhere (most of such sponsoring was apparently done before the immigration quota system took effect in the 1920's).

The NY Times first mention of pizza was in 1944 and the pizzeria mentioned was not Lombardi's, but Luigino's Pizzeria alla Napoletana. The same sequencing used at Lombardi's is mentioned in the article...mootz first, then sauce, romano and olive oil. One has to wonder if Luigino learned this sequencing through watching pizzas being made at Lombardi's and/or Totonno's while visiting those shops or if he in fact was sponsored by and worked for Lombardi at one time?

While the 1944 NY Times article does not say how long Luigino's had been opened at that point, a later 1966 NY Times article speculated that Luigino's "may be the oldest established pizza house in the city", which hints that it may have opened much earlier than 1944?

It would be interesting to know if Luigino Milone of Luigino's did in fact work at Lombardi's, as we would have yet another branch from the Lombardi's tree which we knew about (even though Luigino's is now closed). --K
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: Pete-zza on August 05, 2011, 02:31:18 PM
I was just curious as to what they did in the old days.Not after a particular kind,just like reading about all this.

Bill,

From what Evelyne has written, I tried to reconstruct what might have been the Lombardi's dough recipe as originally constituted and practiced. If I am not 100% correct, I believe that I am fairly close.

The original Lombardi's dough as made in 1905 comprised only flour, water, yeast and salt. No sugar or oil were used. The flour was a bleached, bromated, malted bread flour with a protein content of around 12-13%. Since ADY and IDY did not exist at that time (they had not yet been invented), the yeast was fresh yeast. The hydration was quite high, as much as 65%. The salt, at around 1%, was on the low side by today's standards. Since commercial mixers and coolers did not exist at that time, at least in the pizza trade, the dough was made entirely by hand and kneaded on a table. This was usually done early in the morning. After fermentation, at room temperature (commercial refrigerators with compressors and refrigerants came later), the dough was divided and placed in wooden boxes pending use to fill orders. The amount of yeast was determined to fit the window within which the dough balls would be used. There were no scales to weigh things. Everything was done using volume measurements and "feel", based mainly on experience. The dough balls were formed into skins by working on the hands and the knuckles. Typically, the skins were not tossed in the air. That would have been very difficult with a hand made bread flour dough at a hydration of around 65%.

As you will see from Reply 11 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5000.msg42449.html#msg42449 and also at Reply 14 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5000.msg42502.html#msg42502, I devoted a lot of time and effort trying to come up with thickness factors for the Lombardi and other elite pizza doughs, based on information that Evelyne provided. The information that Evelyne provided was necessarily inexact inasmuch as no one at the time weighed anything. But, based on that information, I would say that a good starting point for a thickness factor for the original Lombardi's dough would be around 0.08. I don't know what size pizza Lombardi's originally made, but I believe the current size is 16". With modest effort on your part, and using one of the dough calculating tools, I think that you should be able to come up with a dough formulation that reflects what was used back in 1905, but updated to reflect current ingredients. As you may know, Lombardi's closed in 1984 (or so I read) and reopened in 1996. By that time, the Lombardi's dough formulation and dough preparation and management methods had changed. The flour used was different and commercial mixers and refrigeration were in use.

Of course, having an updated version of the original Lombardi's dough recipe using modern flours and access to modern equipment is one thing. The missing part is the coal-fired oven. Yet, you might still be able to make a decent pizza using your home oven. Those with modified ovens or using metal baking plates or better pizza stones, and those with LBE's and wood-fired ovens, might be able to get even better results approachiing but not recreating the pizzas made using a coal-fired oven.

Peter

Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: pizzablogger on August 05, 2011, 02:51:50 PM
As you may know, Lombardi's closed in 1984 (or so I read) and reopened in 1996.
Peter

This is true, and is even posted on the Lombardi's website.

However, according to Slomon, apparently Lombardi's actually closed down twice. The original location closed in the 1970's and re-opened a short time later as a more serious (non-pizza) Italian restaurant, the oven by this point being damaged from vibrations of the subway beneath 53 1/2 Spring Street (4 & 6 Trains) to the point of being unusable and it was shut-up.

Then it closed again in 1984 before the space was re-located up the street in 1996 in an old bakery with a coal-oven on site. --K
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: Pete-zza on August 05, 2011, 03:56:22 PM
One of the interesting sidenotes that came up from my reading of Evelyne's posts is the pressure that publishers can put on authors in terms of what goes into a book. For example, the NY dough recipe in Evelyne's book at page 224 calls for 1 level teaspoon of ADY. Yet, for our members, she suggested 1/8-1/4 teaspoon of IDY. Apparently, the higher amount was to be sure that home pizza makers would succeed with the recipe and to speed up things and not have to wait a day or more to make a pizza, which was a matter of concern to the publisher. At one point, Evelyne talked about re-doing a revised expanded version of her original book or a completely new one (to which Evelyne alluded to in one of her posts). I detected great enthusiasm on Evelyne's part. But apparently that was not something that interested prospective publishers, as Evelyne noted in Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5000.msg42171.html#msg42171. I sometimes wonder how many other things are changed in books that turn something that is good or right into something that is less good or right solely to please a publisher who may know next to nothing about the subject in question.

Peter
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: chickenparm on August 05, 2011, 04:35:30 PM
Peter,wow I was not expecting you to go to all that trouble to post anything more about the Lombardi dough,but many Thanks for doing so.

 :)

I have been making a lehmanns dough recently with just (KABF and sometimes Bouncer HG) Flour,water,yeast and salt.I'm experimenting between 63-65% at times.So far,they have been the best doughs I ever made.

They smell so good the next day after a fridge then room rise,and they taste incredible when cooked.Much better than the doughs I made with oil and sugar.

Anyway back to the topic,reading about the old days,makes me want to try even more simple dough recipes or tweak them around some more at home.

They really knew what they were doing back then.I love reading about the History and all the great comments.
 :)






Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on August 05, 2011, 05:21:46 PM
This article says that in NY the first mention of pizza was in 1903 from the New York Tribune.  “Pizza Pomidore”

http://firstmention.com/pizza.aspx

Another blog that mentions  “pomidore pizza” or “tomato pizza” before 1905  http://restaurant-ingthroughhistory.com/2009/02/09/basic-fare-pizza/

The comments can be seen at the end of the article.

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: pizzablogger on August 05, 2011, 05:48:57 PM
Thanks for the links Norma. Interesting!  :D

In the first link there is a mention of, "And no, it wasn't from Ray's Pizzeria (the real one, on Seventh Avenue)"

I'm assuming they are referring to the Famous Original Ray's Pizza on 7th Avenue in the Theater District, which was opened in 1964....or five years after Ray's Pizza opened on Prince Street in 1959 (the actual first "Ray's" incarnation). Although many are perhaps most familiar with Famous Ray's (11th & 6th in Greenwich Village).

The Ray's confusion is always humoring to see. --K
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on August 05, 2011, 07:31:40 PM
Kelly and anyone else that might be interested,

I don’t know if you ever saw this article or not, but I will post it.

http://nymag.com/restaurants/cheapeats/2009/57894/


Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: Pete-zza on August 05, 2011, 08:25:08 PM
In the first link there is a mention of, "And no, it wasn't from Ray's Pizzeria (the real one, on Seventh Avenue)"

I'm assuming they are referring to the Famous Original Ray's Pizza on 7th Avenue in the Theater District, which was opened in 1964....or five years after Ray's Pizza opened on Prince Street in 1959 (the actual first "Ray's" incarnation). Although many are perhaps most familiar with Famous Ray's (11th & 6th in Greenwich Village).

The Ray's confusion is always humoring to see.

Kelly,

There was an article recently at the New York Times, at http://www.nytimes.com/1991/03/25/nyregion/in-a-pizza-war-it-s-3-rays-against-the-rest.html?scp=2&sq=Ray's%20pizza&st=cse, that touches on the question of who Ray is/was. Several years ago, after reseaching how many pizzerias there were in NYC with the name "Ray" in them, I also reported on a couple of explanations of who "Ray" was, at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,640.msg5841.html#msg5841. The explanation in the NYT article seems to be essentially the same as the FoodNetwork came up with through its research. (For those who are interested, Peter Reinhart's explanation is at pages 38-39 of his book American Pie.)

For fun today, I decided to update my earlier lists of the different Ray's in NYC, using the NYC yellow pages. If my eyeballs didn't deceive me with all of the similar names, here is the updated list (with the number of stores in parentheses):

Famous Original Ray's Pizza (16)
Ray Bari Pizza (10)
Ray's Pizza (7)
Harlem Rays Pizza (1)--this one may be related to Ray's Pizza
Famous Ray's Pizza (3)
Original Ray's Pizza & Restaurant (2)
World Famous Ray's Pizza (2)
Original Ray's Pizza (1)--this one may be related to Original Ray's Pizza & Restaurant
Ray's Real Pizza (1)
New York Ray's Pizza (1)
Ray Pizza Inc (1)--this may be a holding company
Ray's Pizza Bagel Cafe (1)
Bagel Cafe Rays Pizza (1)--this one may be related to Ray's Pizza Bagel Cafe
Ray Bono Pizza (1)
Not Rays Pizza (1)

The number of pizzerias in the above list is 49. In 2004, there were 47 Ray's. In 2008, when I last updated the list, there were 50-52 Ray's on the list. It doesn't look like they are "evolving" all that much. However, it should be noted that there are several Ray's in NJ and apparently in several other states. I remember eating at one (a franchise) in Scottsdale, AZ several years ago.

Peter





Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: chickenparm on August 05, 2011, 08:53:35 PM
Kelly and Peter,

Was there a big lawsuit or legal battle over the Ray name for a while? I kept thinking I seen that on TV a while back but was not 100% sure.

Sounded like in the end,just the Lawyers got Rich,and they came to an agreement of some kind?

Norma,thanks for the link.I laughed when I read this:
2006: Domino’s introduces “Brooklyn style” pizza; incurs wrath of Brooklynites.
 :-D
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on August 06, 2011, 01:37:45 PM
I am not sure how to verify this article to see if it is true or not, but in this article it tells about how the first big pizzerias in NY had to use mozzarella supplied by the mob and why the pizzerias weren’t allowed to sell slices of pizza.

http://blogs.villagevoice.com/forkintheroad/2011/04/a_detail_about.php

Another article with a timeline on the left of the article about pizza and pictures of Lombardi’s Pizzeria on right. http://www.interestingamerica.com/2011-01-12_Lombardi_Pizza_NYC_by_C_Doherty.html

I wonder what kind of mozzarella was used on the first pizzas in NY, since I don’t think they had Bufala Mozzarella all those years ago in NY.  I did see on the web that Giuseppe Pollio did start making mozzarella at Coney Island, Brooklyn in 1899, under the name Pollio Dairy Company, then it became Polly-O, now owned by Kraft. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polly-O
http://www.nytimes.com/1998/03/08/nyregion/q-a-mark-pettie-keeping-alive-100-years-of-cheese-making.html

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: pizzablogger on August 07, 2011, 09:14:01 AM
Norma, the mozzarella used on the first pizzas in NYC was fior-di-latte (fresh mozzarella), made by local persons in the neighborhood, if not by the pizzeria itself. In fact, Slomon does mention that when fresh mozzarella wasn't available from the local purveyor of Lombardi's, they had to obtain curd and make it fresh themselves.

I have a couple of newspaper articles from the 40s which also cite fresh mozzarella being used on pizzas at the time.

Keep in mind there were no distribution networks for pizza stores back then, as pizza didn't really become more widespread, in fact even known by much of the general public, until the late 40s and 50s.

The first instance of mozzarella di bufala being used that I know about was by Domenico DeMarco at DiFara pizza, which opened up in 1964 and from all accounts used bufala from the start.

Looking forward to reading your article links Norma, thanks --K
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on August 07, 2011, 11:15:04 AM
Norma, the mozzarella used on the first pizzas in NYC was fior-di-latte (fresh mozzarella), made by local persons in the neighborhood, if not by the pizzeria itself. In fact, Slomon does mention that when fresh mozzarella wasn't available from the local purveyor of Lombardi's, they had to obtain curd and make it fresh themselves.

I have a couple of newspaper articles from the 40s which also cite fresh mozzarella being used on pizzas at the time.

Keep in mind there were no distribution networks for pizza stores back then, as pizza didn't really become more widespread, in fact even known by much of the general public, until the late 40s and 50s.

The first instance of mozzarella di bufala being used that I know about was by Domenico DeMarco at DiFara pizza, which opened up in 1964 and from all accounts used bufala from the start.

Looking forward to reading your article links Norma, thanks --K

Kelly,

Thanks for the information about the cheese.  :) I find any kind of history interesting, and especially anything about pizza, or what they might have done years ago in NY.  I did contact the Museum of Food in NY to see if they have any other information about pizzas years ago in NY, but they emailed me back that they didn’t have any of that information. 

Will be looking forward to what you find and post, and also what any other members finds and posts.  I really think this thread is interesting.

I knew no distribution networks were available back in the first days of pizza in the US.  Would be interested in seeing your newspaper articles if you can post them.

There are pictures on Getty images, that some of them go back years ago, but not to the beginning.  I don’t know if I link those images if that will infringe on copyrights or not.

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on August 07, 2011, 06:05:28 PM
Kelly,

I don’t know if you already found out any of this information or not, or if others might be interested, but here are some more things I found.

The book 97 Orchard: by Jane Ziegelman:  An Edible History of Five Immigrant Families in One New York Tenement tells the story of how food and pizza played into the NY scene years ago.  This is a video on Book TV C-Span2 about the book. 

http://www.booktv.org/Watch/11653/97+Orchard+An+Edible+History+of+Five+Immigrant+Families+in+One+New+York+Tenement.aspx (http://www.booktv.org/Watch/11653/97+Orchard+An+Edible+History+of+Five+Immigrant+Families+in+One+New+York+Tenement.aspx)

In the book 97 Orchard: http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/7833009-97-orchard (http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/7833009-97-orchard)
It tells about how Italian peddlers hawked the cheese-and-tomato pies known as pizzarelli.  If you click on more, under the story introduction, the above sentence can be seen.

Some websites offer a look inside of some of the pages of 97 Orchard.  On the table of contents on it shows the Baldizzi Family. http://www.amazon.com/97-Orchard-Immigrant-Families-Tenement/dp/0061288500/?tag=pizzamaking-20 (http://www.amazon.com/97-Orchard-Immigrant-Families-Tenement/dp/0061288500/?tag=pizzamaking-20)   It can be seen on the notes where someone might search for more information.  Some of those articles are old and might be hard to find.


On page 9 of this PDF. Document http://www.ait.org.tw/infousa/zhtw/DOCS/ijse0704.pdf (http://www.ait.org.tw/infousa/zhtw/DOCS/ijse0704.pdf)
it tells about how Italians immigrants from Naples, arriving at Ellis Island, and how before too long there were living around Mulberry St. in Manhattan and were desperately trying to reproduce the food of their homeland.  From those efforts did come pizza and other Italian foods. 

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on August 12, 2011, 11:15:24 AM
Kelly or anyone that might be interested,

I did contact the Library of Congress at: http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/
under, ask a librarian.  http://www.loc.gov/rr/askalib/  to see if I could find any articles that might have be printed in newspapers before 1905 about pizza.  I did specifically ask about the article mentioned in the New York Tribune.

This is what I wrote, and what the librarian replied from the Library of Congress.

Question History:

Patron: Do you have access to any old (1900- 1905) newspaper articles from NYC
about how Italian immigrants brought over and made the first pizzas, before any
pizza businesses were opened, or maybe where I could find information about the
first pizza business maybe by some kind of Italian posts. I am studying about
pizza in NYC and would like to find out what I can.  I do have a lot of
information and the earliest thing I can learn was from 1903 when a pomidore
pizza was made in NY.  I think that article was in the NY Tribune.

Thanks!

Librarian 2: I did find the article you mentioned from the New York Tribune.
However, I haven't found many other newspaper articles in our indexes. Here are
two though, the second of which goes into some detail:

1. Headline: What to Eat; Article Type: News/Opinion
Paper: Morning Herald, published as The Morning Herald; Date: 12-29-1902;
Volume: 32; Issue: 363; Page: 2; Location: Lexington, Kentucky
 
2. Headline: "Hot Cakes" in North Street Toothsome Dainties, Favorites with
Neapolitan Palates, Are Pizze Cavuie And; Article Type: News/Opinion
Paper: Boston Journal, published as Boston Sunday Journal; Date: 10-04-1903;
Issue: 522; Page: 12; Location: Boston, Massachusetts

Scans of the articles are attached.

I would suggest that you search for "pizza" in Google Books. Limit your search
to 19th century publications and you will find mentions decades before 1900.
Since books before 1923 aren't under copyright, you should typically be able to
view these books in their entirety through Google.

I hope this information is of some help. Thank you for contacting the Library of
Congress.

Thomas P Jabine
Newspaper and Current Periodical Room
Serial and Government Publications Division
Library of Congress

Explore history's first draft at Chronicling America: Historic American
Newspapers - <http://www.loc.gov/chroniclingamerica/>


This is the link I found after searching the above link.

 http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83030214/1903-12-06/ed-1/seq-35/;words=pizza?date1=1836&rows=20&searchType=basic&state=&date2=1904&proxtext=++Pizza&y=14&x=5&dateFilterType=yearRange&index=0

And this is the scanned article, that I typed out from the Library of Congress.  A few of the scanned words, might not be correct, because the scan was kind of hazy.

“Hot Cakes” IN NORTH STREET

Toothsome Dainties, Favorites with Neapolitan Plates, Are Pizza Cavuie and Taraluccio--Beer, Not Wine, Therewith.

Scattered though North and Prince streets and other portions of the Italian colony where Neapolitans congregate are occasional little shops with the words “Pizze Cavule” on the windows.  The words mean simply “hot cakes” in the Neapolitan  dialect.  But only a traveler would know that the pizze are one of the famous products of Naples, eaten by rich and poor, high and low, and dutifully partaken of by every tourist as one of the features that must be “done” in order to say that one has seen Naples.  The devotion of the American race to pie is a poor thing in comparison, with that of the Neapolitans for their pizze.  It is a deeper passion  than that of Devonshire for clotted cream, or of Boston for baked beans. Every restaurant serves them, and after the play is over the theatre-goers pour into cafes to eat hot pizze.

Neapolitans in Boston say that there are few place in the city to which the famous Naples specialty has been successfully transplanted.  A visit to one these reveals a window piled so high with great round Italian cheeses that the interior is invisible.  Entering, one sees a long table, covered with brown oilcloth and bounded by long black benches.  One side of the room is lined with little private supper rooms about the size of theatre boxes, petitioned off with black wood.  Each is filled with a party of men, peacefully dining on pizze.  A bright tin bucket of beer is in the centre of the table, and passes from lip to lip without the formality of glasses.  The shop does not sell beer.  When a man gives his order he takes a bucket from a stack provided for the purpose, and goes to a neighboring bar for his beer.  By the time he gets back his order is ready, for the pizze cook quickly.

Making the Cake

In behind, two Neapolitan bakers, clothed in white are baking pizze from morning till night, and almost from night until morning.  Quantities of dough are kept prepared, made in fat rolls.  The baker takes a roll, and with a few deft slips flattens it as flat as a pancake but somewhat thicker and little larger than in ordinary pie.  Then he dobs bits of lard on its surface.  Over this he sprinkles grated cheese, from a dish which stands always full beside him.  Then he pours on cooked tomato and on top he throws a handful of oreganta, the spicy aromatic herb which is such a favorite Italian seasoning.  The cheese used is Roman, so much employed for culinary purposes.  The whole operation has not taken him more than a minute.  The he slaps it on a broad, flat, long-handled paddle, and thrusts it into the furnace.  In two minutes it is done. 

It comes to the table on a big, flat pewter plate. Ordinarily individual plates are not furnished or required,  for every true Neapolitan takes his piece of pizze, folds it over so that the crust is outside, and eat it from the hand.  The pastry seems to be a cross between bread dough and pie crust, and is not lacking in suggestions that when cold it might lie somewhat heavily upon the unaccustomed interior.  But as a whole the confections is enticing, by reason of its delectable hot-ness and crispness, and the cunning blend of spicy flavors for which it is renowned.  It is probably indigestible, but certainly no more than Welsh rarebit.

On the walls of the pizze shop are the pictures of the King and Queen and of Garibaldi, and also a placard which with elaborate politeness begs the customer to be so kind as not to be in a hurry, as patience will enable them to be better served, and also to have the goodness not to be offended if on Sunday, by reason of crowd, the are required to pay when they give their order.

A cake of this size is 10 cents, and there are smaller one for 5 cents.  In Naples the price ranges from 10 cents down to a penny for little one containing only a good-sized mouthful.  A favorite cry for them at the doors of the bakeries in Naples is “Ca’pumarola e elice”, which is dialect for “With tomatoes and anchovy,” some of them being made with anchovy there, though the fish is never added here.  Men may sometime be seen on the streets, particularly on feast days, carrying tray of the hot cakes fresh from the bakeshops, and crying “pizzelle”.  These are merely the baked dough, however, without any of the added ingredients which make the pizze so succulent a morse.

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: pizzablogger on August 12, 2011, 01:04:16 PM
Norma, excellent sluething.

Great minds think alike.....I am going to go to the LOC soon for some research digging. It's not too far from where I live. Was a lot closer when I lived in DC thought.

I also have access to a couple of public libraries which have some older newspaper archives as well.

I'm not sure what I am trying to do with all of this.....the initial NY Times articles I have are mostly short, but there are some interesting tidbits which help support some of the history given in various pizza books. I guess I just find it very interesting to read and gain these echoes from the past, however faint they are.

The key with all of this information is how to distill it into a presentable form. I have started this in some fashion, but I'm not sure it will ultimately be any more meaningful than the various pizza histories already published in various pizza books. It certainly won't make anyone a better pizza maker. But then again I have always liked the history and background information for anything I am interested in. I'm not sure why it has taken me so long to dig into the newspaper archives yet. Still another 2 weeks before I can access my next 100 articles on the NY Times archives as part of my subscription (100 articles per month).

BTW Norma, good pull on the 97 Orchard Book. I have ordered it from Amazon and am awaiting delivery. Have you ever strolled down Orchard Street on a Saturday afternoon? All types of clothes, furnishings etc (non-"corporate" and totally unlike the fiasco of Broadway in SoHo & NoHo) at often very sharp prices. And if you start on the Southern end and walk North, you end up in Chinatown and Little Italy....good bite to eat after a walk. --K
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: pizzablogger on August 12, 2011, 01:33:18 PM
Norma, the North Street article is fantastic....and further prooves the point that there is no clear answer to who or where pizza was first sold in America. I would imagine the very first places selling pizza sprang up in various Northeaster cities within a short period of time.

Thanks so much for posting that!  :)
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on August 12, 2011, 05:05:57 PM
Kelly,

I thought about the Italians immigrating to the US, and why wouldn’t they try to make their own foods here in some fashion, even before the first licensed pizza establishment. If they ate pizze or what is what ever they called it in Italy, why wouldn’t they try to replicate it in the US.  The bakers did have access to ovens. I was surprised when I saw the article that the Library of Congress sent me from Boston.  I never would have thought Boston would have had such an active pizze community.  I wonder what happened to that. There must be many other articles out there somewhere.  The problem is just to find them.  I have always enjoyed reading about what people did years ago, and pizza isn’t an exception.  

I am glad you are going to the Library of Congress and do more research digging.  Almost every article I have read before you posted on this thread is about how the first pizzeria started in NY, and not much of anything else.  I also enjoy reading tidbits from the past, however faint they are.  I could imagine myself in Boston eating one of those pies, just from reading the scan.  

I don’t know where Orchard St. is in NY.  I will have to try a stroll down Orchard St. sometime when I am  in NY.  I will be interested in what you can learn when you read the book Orchard St.  

I also agree, that the very first pizzas probably sprang up in a short while in Northeaster cities.

If there is any other way I can help you research just let me know.  I enjoy digging.  

Best of luck in your research, and I would be looking forward to what you find.  ;D

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: parallei on August 12, 2011, 05:32:29 PM
Hey Norma,

Just a bit off topic, but:

97 Orchard: by Jane Ziegelman was a great read.  An interesting social history that both my wife and I enjoyed it.  Check it out if you haven't already...
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on August 12, 2011, 05:55:32 PM
Hey Norma,

Just a bit off topic, but:

97 Orchard: by Jane Ziegelman was a great read.  An interesting social history that both my wife and I enjoyed it.  Check it out if you haven't already...

Paul,

This for telling me 97 Orchard was a great read.  I think I am going to purchase the book.

Thanks!  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on August 12, 2011, 05:56:34 PM
Kelly or anyone else that is interested,

I found another article from the Sun in 1905.  In the newspaper article it says there are only two places in NY where you can get real Neapolitan pizze.  One on Spring St. and one on Grand.  It sounds like from this article the other article really didn’t talk about the pizze being in Boston.  What do you think?  The article is at the middle bottom of the page.

http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83030272/1905-06-18/ed-1/seq-31/;words=bakers+Neapolitan?date1=1836&rows=20&searchType=basic&state=&date2=1905&proxtext=Neapolitan+bakers&y=0&x=0&dateFilterType=yearRange&index=0

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: pizzablogger on August 13, 2011, 09:45:45 AM
Norma, I have a copy of that Sun article. But I have never been able to find out the name of the shop on Grand Street (Grand, Spring and Orchard are all in Little Italy/Chinatown, with Orchard running down into the Lower East Side as well.

What did the newspaper article from Lexington, Kentucky say?

I agree with you about immigration and immigrants yearning for native foods. That's one of the great things about immigration is the importation of their foods, customs, etc. Likely the first pizza shops sprung up spontaneously in the areas where Southern Italians migrated to, with Philadelphia (indeed all of PA saw an influx of Italian immigrants), Trenton NJ, NYC, New Haven and Boston being among the more heavily immigrated to cities in the early 1900s. Since the Southern Italian "Great Arrival" did not begin in ernest until around 1880, I would imagine the first pizza sellers were bound to spring up sometime in the 1890s as Southern Italian neighborhoods became more entrenched.

Baltimore has seen an incredible boom in its Latin population over the last decade. There are several excellent places to get real tacos now (including an actual Tortelleria making fresh tortillas sold by the kilo daily made from a rickety machine). I can't think which place was first....they all kind of came into being right around the same time. Proves the old saying....if you have a good idea, you can bet at least one other person has already thought of it as well.

As far as the early NY papers not mentioning the Boston pizza, I doubt they even knew of it. The availability of broadband service has really changed the world. We can instantly learn about topics at our whim. Back then in the early 1900s, I would imagine many news media persons had relatively limited knowledge what was happening around NYC, much less other cities. Even in 1900 NYC was a huge city of nearly 3.5 million residents, which is still a large number of people in a city by today's standards. That, combined with pizza being constricted to ethnic Italian neighborhoods shielded the goings on of pizza from many citizens.

Last night I also happened upon the first articles in San Francisco that mention Lupo's, which is now Tommaso's. The Tommaso's website claims the oven there was the first brick oven in the West. The San Francisco news articles I have date back to the late 1930s, so the claim of Lupo's being there since 1935 is credible. The pizza making process described in the articles sounds much like NY-Neapolitan pizza. So Lupo's opened only two years after Patsy Lancieri started slinging pies out of a coal-fired oven in East Harlem.

http://tommasos.com/--K
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: pizzablogger on August 13, 2011, 09:53:47 AM
Off topic, but those interested in history, or NYC, would be well served by reading the book Gotham: A History of New York City to 1898. Fantastic and fascinating read.
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on August 13, 2011, 11:42:05 AM
Kelly,

The article from Lexington, Kentucky doesn’t say a lot.  This is what it said.

It was titled “What to Eat”, and first starts out by saying, the Christmas number of What to Eat is full of pertinent holiday matter, then goes on to talk about food for Christmas and Congress might be acting on the food question and the Drink Habit Among Women.  The part of the article pertaining to pizza only says:  Mascagni and his favorite dish “Pizza Neapolitana” is timely topic in Genie H. Rosenfeld’s “Notes Drama Dramatic.”.  Margaret Rayburn tells what the New York shops hold for Christmas shoppers.  I don’t know if Genie H. Rosenfeld’s  “Notes Dramatic” or recorded anywhere or not.  At the end of the article it says The Pierce Publishing Company, Chicago.

Thanks for your explanation about where Southern Italian immigrated to.  In the relation to the Boston article and the one from the New York Tribune, they are both saying almost the same things, but are years apart.  I wonder why that is.

Thanks also for finding out about Lupo’s, which is now Tommaso’s.  I didn’t know anything about them before.  It is interesting that Lupo’s opened only two years after Pasty Lancieri started slinging pies out of coal-fried oven in East Harlem.

When I was searching more last evening, I had to chuckle when I searched Roman cheese in New York Tribune papers.  I only can guess that is what they must have used on their pizzas, but there was a funny article about someone stealing the expensive Roman cheese and the police search for the Roman cheese.  They did finally find it after a few days, and the person was arrested.  The police said their noses led them to the Roman cheese.  I wonder what that smelled like.

While doing searches for pushcarts, wagon carts and other things in the New York Tribune, there are articles about Italian immigrants selling spaghetti on the carts and also images.  I also searched Little Italy and saw pictures of what street carts looked like back so many years ago, how health inspectors were concerned, and how many blocks the street carts were on. When I have time, I will try to search for where the pizza was made on Grand St. 

Thanks for all your research.  :) Looking forward to finding out more.

Norma
Title: Re: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: dmcavanagh on August 13, 2011, 02:33:10 PM
I just stumbled upon this thread and intend to read through it over the upcoming days. I also find the history of pizza to be quite interesting. Much of what I have read suggests that pizza in America started in neighborhood bakeries in the large East coast cities. The fact that a bakery would have dough and an appropriate oven make this assumption highly believable. Bakers supposedly used extra dough and formed "tomato pies" for hungry workers in their neighborhood. Cheese was too expensive for the "working man", but a piece of dough with tomatoes, baked in the already fired ovens was an affordable treat for the working man and a source of income for the bakery.
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on August 14, 2011, 03:04:46 PM
Kelly or anyone that is interested,

I hope I am not too far off-topic, with this post.  I really don’t know what is in the book, mentioned below, pertaining to evolution of NY pizzas, but would think some of the references might be useful in finding information, because Andrew P. Haley is a historian, and has searched diaries, and other places no one has search before about NY food and how it evolved.

Turning the Tables, Restaurants and the Rise of the American Middle Class, 1880-1920 by: Andrew P. Haley seems like a book with a lot of references in the book, to where someone might find out more about Italian immigrants and their role in the NY food scene and maybe pizza. http://www.uncpress.unc.edu/browse/book_detail?title_id=1899 (http://www.uncpress.unc.edu/browse/book_detail?title_id=1899)

http://americareads.blogspot.com/2011/06/pg-99-andrew-p-haleys-turning-tables.html (http://americareads.blogspot.com/2011/06/pg-99-andrew-p-haleys-turning-tables.html)

At the look inside feature at the index, on Amazon, the selected works consulted can be seen.

http://www.amazon.com/Turning-Tables-Restaurants-American-1880-1920/dp/0807834742/?tag=pizzamaking-20 (http://www.amazon.com/Turning-Tables-Restaurants-American-1880-1920/dp/0807834742/?tag=pizzamaking-20)

I have been looking under old Google books or articles, and have found snippets from the past on mixers, pizzas, and other things.

Edit:  I had emailed Andrew P. Haley, PHD at [email protected] . about if in his searches for his book, if he found anything out about pizzas in New York, when the Italian immigrants came to the US.  He replied that he couldn’t specifically remember anything he found, but would go through his notes.  Andrew said mostly, though, he was paying attention to the evolution of spaghetti, so it was possible he missed any references to pizza.  He gave me a promise and had a suggestion.  His promise was he needs to review some of his sources for another project he is working on (due in mid September, so it will happen soon). and he will keep his eyes open for anything that might be of interest.  The other suggestion he gave me is to look at the turn-of-the-century culinary magazine called Table Talk.  He said it was published in Philadelphia and featured the work of Sarah Rorer. Andrew said the recipes were responses to readers requests, and were surprisingly heavy on ethnic recipes including some fairly usual dishes.  He said he would look though his notes to see if he can find any reference to pizza.  He said it might be worth another look.  I saw Table Talk when I was searching under Google books last evening, but didn’t give it another thought.  I also have a couple more emails out. 


Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: pizzablogger on August 15, 2011, 01:43:58 PM
I got some good information over the past several days with regards to the impact of the unification of Italy on Southern Italy, how it actually helped exacerbate the poverty there, the subsequent push to America as well as some details on the different areas that southern Italian immigrants established in the city (NYC). I was always curious why Patsy Lancieri opened Patsy's (in 1933) all the way up in East Harlem so far away from the concentration of Italians in Little Italy. I now know why.

More later. --K
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on August 22, 2011, 08:45:43 PM
Kelly,

I don’t know if you or other members ever saw these videos about Frank Mastro, and how he started inventing and designing deck ovens and pizza equipment years ago.  The video is called “The Pizza King! Mastro Pizza ‘64-’65 NY Worlds Fair Video”.  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNvDOXogJE0&feature=player_embedded#!

ffneodoc commented on the second video below:
This is a slightly higher quality video, captured in MP4 Format. My Cousin Vincent Mastro and I are going to work on a Web Site that has more about Frank's contributions to Pizza from the 30's to the mid 50's, & Vincent furthering his Dad's (Frank) dream that Pizza would sometime be as popular as the hotdog. It will be at www.fferrentino.com

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNvDOXogJE0&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

These videos were uploaded July 6, 2011.

I never heard of Frank Mastro before, or how he studied about pizza ovens and equipment, and invented many kinds of pizza equipment.

I found this video on Scotts Pizza Tours blog. http://blog.scottspizzatours.com/

http://blog.scottspizzatours.com/post/8128500579/mastro-pizza-pavillion-1964-film

These posts are on a forum about Mastro Pizza at the 65/65 NY worlds’ fair.

http://www.roadfood.com/Forums/m197589-print.aspx

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: Essen1 on August 22, 2011, 09:15:52 PM
Norma,

The first link showing Frank Mastro's oven design should be considered a piece of pizza history. Well, I'm sure it is already today and it's very informative.

Thanks for the link. But can someone please educate me and tell me why pizza is referred to a pie?

I know I've used the term extensively but always wondered about it because it has little in common/to do with traditional pies, such as Apple, Boston Cream or a Pumpkin pie.

Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: chickenparm on August 22, 2011, 09:31:50 PM
Mike,

We talked a little bit about it here.I still dont really know,it was a NY thing growing up.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13624.0.html

:)

Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: Essen1 on August 22, 2011, 11:07:07 PM
Mike,

We talked a little bit about it here.I still dont really know,it was a NY thing growing up.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13624.0.html

:)



I saw that post before. But is it really because of Dean Martin and his song?

Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: chickenparm on August 22, 2011, 11:11:55 PM
I saw that post before. But is it really because of Dean Martin and his song?



No idea...just something I heard growing up and it stuck.
 :)
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: pizzablogger on August 23, 2011, 07:41:16 PM
No, pizza was being referenced as a pie in media print before he was old enough to sing.
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on December 09, 2011, 09:11:49 AM
Kelly or anyone that is interested,

I don’t know how accurate this article is, but find it interesting how many pizzerias were listed from 1958 until 2010 in NY.

http://blogs.wsj.com/metropolis/2011/11/30/how-new-york-became-a-pizza-capital/

Page 10 in this article from The Italian Academy tells about how pizza became popular in the 50’s.  I had to chuckle when I read this part of the article:  :-D

A good starting point to observe how popular magazines dealt with Italian Food in the
1950s is the case of pizza. Before the war, most non-Italian Americans were completely unfamiliar
with it. A 1930 guide to dining out in New York defined it “a inch-thick, potato pan-cake, sprinkled
with Parmesan cheese and stewed tomatoes.”  In 1947, The New York Times Magazine introduced
readers to a recipe for making pizza at home, claiming that the Italian specialty, a favorite in New
York’s Little Italies, “could be as popular a snack as the hamburger, if only the Americans knew
more about it.”22 The prescience is astonishing, as a national market for pizza was created
overnight.

http://www.italianacademy.columbia.edu/publications/working_papers/2003_2004/paper_sp04_Cinotto.pdf

I think there are good references in the pdf document above that could be researched more.

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on December 10, 2011, 07:07:03 AM
Kelly,

I don’t know if you have found these articles or not.  It looks like the first article was on Slice, but I didn’t see if before.
Period Pies: A Look Back at New York Pizza Journalism
http://newyork.grubstreet.com/2011/04/period_pies_a_look.html
I had to click on the article to be able to view it.

Any words highlighted can only be previewed in the NY times.  These highlighted articles need to be bought to view them in their entirely. 

Another article called: Pizza, A Johnny-come-lately
http://www.jcs-group.com/fun/culinary/pizza.html

This article shows (pictures) how fresh frozen pizzas were made.  I don’t know if this was when they first made flash frozen pizzas or not.
http://brooklynology.brooklynpubliclibrary.org/post/2011/01/03/Big-Appetites-Little-Pizzas.aspx

Norma

EDIT (8/4/16): If the above grubstreet link does not work, try the Wayback Machine link at http://web.archive.org/web/20110917044824/http://newyork.grubstreet.com/2011/04/period_pies_a_look.html (even then, it might load very slowly)
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: pizzablogger on December 10, 2011, 11:58:48 AM
Norma, I have all of those but the Johnny-Come-Lately article.  Thanks for adding another article to the mix!  ;D

Yes, pizza was nearly completely unknown outside of the culturally-tight enclaves of inner-cities until the late 1940s.

American GI's returning from WWII that were stationed in Southern Italy are often cited as the reason pizza exploded in the 1950s. From what I have read this is a very large reason, but not the full picture. Other articles also talk about the boom in the economy after WWII (also true) and that for the first time much more of the population had the means to travel overseas...and these people tried foods from foreign lands for the first time and by and large liked it, with Italy being one of the most popular travel destinations in those days for Americans (as it is now). Those people brought a hankerin' for pizza back from their travels.

It's amusing, and sad, that some of the mechanisms and changes which helped usher in the boom of pizzerias during the 1950's and 1960's immediately cheapened the product and began the downward slide of pizza into a cheaply constructed, commodity food of baneful quality (which is what nearly all "NY-Style" pizza, even in NYC, is these days...s*^t).

The bloom was definitely off the rose right off the bat.....the "synthetic cheese" versus the "real mozzarella" wars between American Cheese Makers and the Italians making fior-di-latte in the late 40's and early 50's being one example. --K
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on December 10, 2011, 12:48:51 PM
Kelly,

I am always interested in learning more about how NY style pizzas started in NY.  What you have told me in your last post has expanded my knowledge. 

I wanted to ask you a question if you know what type or brand of flours regular slice joints used back in the 50’s? That is something I have been wondering about for a long time.  I think they used lower protein flours, but don’t know if they did, or which ones they used.  Also do you know the bake times or temperatures they used back in the 50’s for the gas deck ovens?  I can’t find that information.

Thanks!  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on April 30, 2012, 06:04:49 PM
I saw this article on Scott’s Pizza Journal about maybe the first reference to Pizza as a Pie in NY. 

http://blog.scottspizzatours.com/post/18130417527/first-reference-to-pizza-as-pie

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: pizzablogger on August 20, 2012, 04:19:05 PM
One day this decade I will tie all of the crap I have into an informal pizza "history of sorts".

Just re-read some stuff while on hold with a company today. One of the first direct mentions of pizza by the slice I found:

“When pizza is eaten, it generally fills that momentary urge for a quick snack. In this sense pizza is symbolic of the present Atomic and Aspirin Age, in which the necessity has arisen for conducting business on the run and the hustle and bustle of everyday living have caught up with the working man, hurrying home to the suburbs. A tasty triangle of pizza won’t spoil supper and it may avoid for the train traveler those uncomfortable gnawings in the stomach. All this was undreamed of by our first business-wise Italian immigrant of 50 years ago.” --6/14/1956
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on August 21, 2012, 06:52:42 AM
One day this decade I will tie all of the crap I have into an informal pizza "history of sorts".

Just re-read some stuff while on hold with a company today. One of the first direct mentions of pizza by the slice I found:

“When pizza is eaten, it generally fills that momentary urge for a quick snack. In this sense pizza is symbolic of the present Atomic and Aspirin Age, in which the necessity has arisen for conducting business on the run and the hustle and bustle of everyday living have caught up with the working man, hurrying home to the suburbs. A tasty triangle of pizza won’t spoil supper and it may avoid for the train traveler those uncomfortable gnawings in the stomach. All this was undreamed of by our first business-wise Italian immigrant of 50 years ago.” --6/14/1956

Kelly,

Looking forward to the day when you find time to put all your information together.   ;D

What you found from 1956 is interesting too. 

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: Pete-zza on October 23, 2012, 10:06:15 AM
There is some additional information on the evolution of the NY style at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21667.0.html.

Peter
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: scott123 on October 23, 2012, 04:44:37 PM
If anyone has a larger version of this image:

http://www.firstpizza.com/history.html

I think it would be quite informative.
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: CIZ28 on November 19, 2012, 09:04:47 AM
The thing I can't understand about the remake of Lombardi's is why are they making traditional Margherita pizza instead of the sauce-on-top style like most of the other originals that took that whole thing from Lombardi's in the first place? I recall reading even Patsy's did it that way before the neighborhood changed and in came the orange blanket for slices. IIRC, a true Lombardi's plain pie made by Gennaro and family was basically Totonno's pizza today with some oregano (not fresh basil) and possibly a little fresh garlic.
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: Tscarborough on November 19, 2012, 02:52:15 PM
http://slice.seriouseats.com/images/2004_04_30_PizzaFamilyTree.jpg
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on March 03, 2013, 12:23:58 PM
Domenico Crolla posted this picture on facebook a little while ago.  This is what the caption says. Enjoying some New York pizza 1921.  

I asked Domenico Crolla where he found this picture.  I will see if he answers me.

I thought the picture was quite interesting.  They all sure look like they are enjoying their pizzas!   ;D

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: deb415611 on March 03, 2013, 01:41:56 PM
Norma - I saw that picture on facebook yesterday on a different site -- this is the caption that was with it "In 1921, early suffragettes often donned a bathing suit and ate pizza in large groups to annoy men...it was a custom at the time..."   
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: Pete-zza on March 03, 2013, 01:59:10 PM
Norma,

Aren't you in that photo?

Peter
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 03, 2013, 02:17:41 PM
Norma,

Aren't you in that photo?

Peter
You should know Peter...isn't that you all the way to the right down front sitting in front of Norma!?!?  ;D
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: Pete-zza on March 03, 2013, 02:34:23 PM
You should know Peter...isn't that you all the way to the right down front sitting in front of Norma!?!?  ;D

Bob, no, that was my grandfather :-D.

Peter
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on March 03, 2013, 02:41:10 PM
Norma - I saw that picture on facebook yesterday on a different site -- this is the caption that was with it "In 1921, early suffragettes often donned a bathing suit and ate pizza in large groups to annoy men...it was a custom at the time..."   

Deb,

That was too funny what you posted about early suffragettes often donning a bathing suit and eating pizza in large groups to annoy men!   :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on March 03, 2013, 02:42:32 PM
Norma,

Aren't you in that photo?

Peter

Peter,

Yep, I was that first lady on the left eating pizza.   :angel:

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on March 03, 2013, 02:43:46 PM
You should know Peter...isn't that you all the way to the right down front sitting in front of Norma!?!?  ;D

Bob,

I really don't know Peter.

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: scott123 on March 03, 2013, 10:31:46 PM
Those women need to put some clothes on. Have they no sense of decency?  It's scandalous, I say!
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 03, 2013, 10:38:46 PM
Those women need to put some clothes on. Have they no sense of decency?  It's scandalous, I say!
Aww... 'cmon dadio...they hav'in fun eat'in pizza man!  ;D
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on March 04, 2013, 05:39:37 AM
Those women need to put some clothes on. Have they no sense of decency?  It's scandalous, I say!

Scott,

Those ladies sure are decent compared to today's standards.   :-D

To post really where this picture came from this explains it more.

The photo was actually here.  http://www.junipergallery.com/node/1838  and titled this. July 31, 1921. Washington, D.C. "Pie eating contest at Tidal Basin bathing beach."  This was posted on this facebook page Saturday.  https://www.facebook.com/chickhistory

At least ladies did enjoy pizza back in 1921.  :P

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on July 31, 2014, 07:35:03 PM
I saw this “Letter to the Editor” today in PMQ Magazine.  I found the letter interesting.  I contacted Mick's All-American Pub in Lititz, Pa. to see if Frank might want to talk to me.  Maybe Frank could share other memories he has, and also memories from his grandfather and father.  Since Frank lives so close to me hopefully he will contact me.  Mick's said they will tell Frank about me wanting to talk to him.  I always like to talk to a pizza maker that is old-school.  Maybe Frank could tell us more how pizza evolved in the US.

I would have posted the link to the PMQ digital Magazine but don't think it is digital yet.

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on August 01, 2014, 09:32:52 AM
The digital issue of PMQ Pizza Magazine is active now.  The photo I posted is from the letter on page 14 http://digital.pmq.com/pmqmag/august_2014#pg14 (http://digital.pmq.com/pmqmag/august_2014#pg14) if anyone is interested.

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on August 17, 2014, 08:40:28 AM
If anyone is interested, the video by Scott Wiener does explain a lot about how pizza has evolved since pizza was first made.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGu0hQVZ_4o (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGu0hQVZ_4o)

Norma
Title: Re: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: R2-Bayou on August 18, 2014, 01:53:24 PM
Great video, thanks for linking this.
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: waltertore on August 21, 2014, 08:08:39 PM
The brooklyn story video is fascinating to me. It confirmed much of what I heard from my older relatives on my mothers side.  They came from Italy and they talked of the coal oven bakeries and how pizza was made in them along with bread.  This is how I was raised with dough and still can't understand how anyone can say knowing bread will not help with knowing pizza and visa versa.  My Smiling With Hope Bakery makes breads and pizzas.  Dough is dough and once you understand it you can easily transfer the skills to either pizza or bread. The video has a great shot of the blodgett 1000 ovens with a Mastro logo on them(see story in video below). Just before these ovens are shown (towards the end of the video) you will see a lot of stacks of black blodgett ovens.  These are low btu ovens and would go at least a 10 minute bake time.  I was visiting my friends that own Mazzi's pizza in marion Oh and they run the exact same ovens.  He got all the recipes from his family's brooklyn pizzeria including cake yeast and eggs in the dough.  They bake a 10 minute pie in these ovens just like in the old days. 

http://www.mazzies.com/ (http://www.mazzies.com/)

This video also fascinates me.  I was at the NYC worlds fair in 1964 with my father.  We ate pizza at the Mastro pizza pavillion.  The ovens they used were the same blodgett 1000 ovens I use today and mine contain the original gas burners and stones.  This in essence is a time freeze oven that gives us a window into the 1960's-70's (when they were discontinued by blodgett) NY area pizzeria culture.  The sweet spot in these ovens is 500-550 on the way high end.  The common saying back in the Newark NJ area when I grew up in the 50's-70's when asked about temp and bake times was 500 degrees and 10 minutes.  I push my ovens to 550/560 and that is it and I have to watch them very closely or the bottoms will burn.  This video is cool in many ways including cold fermentation was happening in the early 60's.   Check it out. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNvDOXogJE0

Walter
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on August 21, 2014, 08:37:25 PM
Walter,

Your post was very interesting in many ways.  I would like to ask you a question about if you know what brand of ovens back in the 60's-70's could bake faster than the Blodgett 1000's like you have?  If the high end bakes temperatures are about 550 degrees F for your oven, where did faster bakes times come into the scene for NY style pizzas?  I find that interesting too the common saying back when you were younger in the Newark, NJ area was 500 degrees for 10 minutes. 

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: waltertore on August 21, 2014, 09:13:49 PM
Walter,

Your post was very interesting in many ways.  I would like to ask you a question about if you know what brand of ovens back in the 60's-70's could bake faster than the Blodgett 1000's like you have?  If the high end bakes temperatures are about 550 degrees F for your oven, where did faster bakes times come into the scene for NY style pizzas?  I find that interesting too the common saying back when you were younger in the Newark, NJ area was 500 degrees for 10 minutes. 

Norma

Norma:  I know of no gas deck oven that was in general use in the NYC area that baked pizzas at temps higher than 550. Pushing them to the 650 limit burns the bottoms.  Gary, the owner of Star Tavern in orange NJ, Joe Sanasiri, who worked at star and whose family owned bunny's in south orange NJ, Alfredo the owner of Alfredo's Pizzeria that was in South Orange, all cooked on blodgett 1000's(120,000 btu's) and their bake temps were 500-550 and 8-10 minutes approx. I never actually timed any of these places pies but having made lots of pies in deck ovens you get a feel for approx times.  I feel my pies are in the 8 minute range but again I never have timed them.  I have tried but get sidetracked with managing a full oven and end up with erroneous numbers. 

I haven't been back to NYC in about 30 years so I am not able to say where/when /if the higher bake temps/bake times began, with the gas deck oven.  I was involved in the pizza world in the late 60's through the late 70's.  My friend Joe's family owned Bunny's and I worked there a bit and at Alfredo's. Alfredo was just off the boat from Italy and was confused by the gas deck oven.  He had a single deck blodgett 1000 and did master it but said it took a lot of modifying of his upbringing in Italy.  I worked there quite a bit(fo no money just food and experience).  Both these places baked in the 500- 550 temp range.  I know you were at Star recently and Gary gave you a backstage tour.  I believe they use to bake at 500-550 back in my day and bet you can confirm what they do today (doubt it has changed any).  I have been following these threads and took a real close look at the ovens that pizza town uses.  I researched them and they appear  to be older ds-805 bakers pride ovens and wonder how they can get a fast bake time without burning up the bottoms rated at 70,000btu's.  Here is the spec sheet for the DS-805.  It is for the new oven but my experience is that as long as they keep the model number of an oven it rarely changes btu's. 

http://www.bakerspride.com/specs/SDECK-GS-DS-10-06.pdf (http://www.bakerspride.com/specs/SDECK-GS-DS-10-06.pdf)

here is a photo that looks  to be the ovens used at pizza town. I am not trying to discredit anyone with bake times but wonder how these ovens can do such a thing?  I own 2 original blodgett 1000's in perfect running condition and could never get a pie done in less than 7 minutes without severly burning the bottom and neither could the ovens at star or bunny's who both used all original blodgett 1000's?  Walter

Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on August 21, 2014, 10:11:13 PM
Norma:  I know of no gas deck oven that was in general use in the NYC area that baked pizzas at temps higher than 550. Pushing them to the 650 limit burns the bottoms.  Gary, the owner of Star Tavern in orange NJ, Joe Sanasiri, who worked at star and whose family owned bunny's in south orange NJ, Alfredo the owner of Alfredo's Pizzeria that was in South Orange, all cooked on blodgett 1000's(120,000 btu's) and their bake temps were 500-550 and 8-10 minutes approx. I never actually timed any of these places pies but having made lots of pies in deck ovens you get a feel for approx times.  I feel my pies are in the 8 minute range but again I never have timed them.  I have tried but get sidetracked with managing a full oven and end up with erroneous numbers. 

I haven't been back to NYC in about 30 years so I am not able to say where/when /if the higher bake temps/bake times began, with the gas deck oven.  I was involved in the pizza world in the late 60's through the late 70's.  My friend Joe's family owned Bunny's and I worked there a bit and at Alfredo's. Alfredo was just off the boat from Italy and was confused by the gas deck oven.  He had a single deck blodgett 1000 and did master it but said it took a lot of modifying of his upbringing in Italy.  I worked there quite a bit(fo no money just food and experience).  Both these places baked in the 500- 550 temp range.  I know you were at Star recently and Gary gave you a backstage tour.  I believe they use to bake at 500-550 back in my day and bet you can confirm what they do today (doubt it has changed any).  I have been following these threads and took a real close look at the ovens that pizza town uses.  I researched them and they appear  to be older ds-805 bakers pride ovens and wonder how they can get a fast bake time without burning up the bottoms rated at 70,000btu's.  Here is the spec sheet for the DS-805.  It is for the new oven but my experience is that as long as they keep the model number of an oven it rarely changes btu's. 

http://www.bakerspride.com/specs/SDECK-GS-DS-10-06.pdf (http://www.bakerspride.com/specs/SDECK-GS-DS-10-06.pdf)

here is a photo that looks  to be the ovens used at pizza town. I am not trying to discredit anyone with bake times but wonder how these ovens can do such a thing?  I own 2 original ones in perfect running condition and could never get a pie done in less than 7 minutes without severly burning the bottom and neither could the ovens at star or bunny's who both used all original blodgett 1000's?  Walter

Walter,

Thanks for your answers.  I find it interesting that you don't know of any Blodgett 1000's that bake over 550 degrees F, unless the bottoms will get too dark.  I think De Lorenzo's in Robbinsville bakes at about 600 degrees F, but that is an entirely different pie than NY style.  If I recall right they have the Blodgett 1000's too.  I don't think Gary told me what bake temperature he uses, but from the time I ordered the pie until it was served was longer than 14 minutes.  Star Tavern was not busy when I first got there so our pie was made right away.   

Your history in the pizza world back in the 60's through the late 70's is interesting.  I find Alfredo's experience in not knowing how to operate the single deck Blodgett 1000's and being confused interesting too.  I guess everyone has to learn how a deck oven works unless someone teaches them.

I also wonder how those ovens at Pizza Town do such a short bake.  I see that ds-805 Baker's Pride look like what Pizza Town uses, but I am not experienced at all on deck ovens. 

You had a lot of history to add and I thank you for doing that.

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: jsaras on August 22, 2014, 12:20:46 AM
Vito's, here in LA, bakes on screens in the bottom compartment for the first two minutes.  The pizza is then moved into the top compartment to be finished off.  Could that be one of the missing keys?
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: waltertore on August 22, 2014, 06:10:09 AM
Vito's, here in LA, bakes on screens in the bottom compartment for the first two minutes.  The pizza is then moved into the top compartment to be finished off.  Could that be one of the missing keys?

I never saw a screen used from my birth until I left the NYC/NJ area and that was in the late 70's.  To be honest I never saw one until coming on this forum a couple years ago.  When I go into a pizzeria the first thing I do is look in the window and see if a completed pie is visable at a customers table or the ovens are visible.  That has detoured me away from well over 99% of the places I was intending on going in :-D  Walter
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: waltertore on August 22, 2014, 06:13:08 AM
Walter,

Thanks for your answers.  I find it interesting that you don't know of any Blodgett 1000's that bake over 550 degrees F, unless the bottoms will get too dark.  I think De Lorenzo's in Robbinsville bakes at about 600 degrees F, but that is an entirely different pie than NY style.  If I recall right they have the Blodgett 1000's too.  I don't think Gary told me what bake temperature he uses, but from the time I ordered the pie until it was served was longer than 14 minutes.  Star Tavern was not busy when I first got there so our pie was made right away.   

Your history in the pizza world back in the 60's through the late 70's is interesting.  I find Alfredo's experience in not knowing how to operate the single deck Blodgett 1000's and being confused interesting too.  I guess everyone has to learn how a deck oven works unless someone teaches them.

I also wonder how those ovens at Pizza Town do such a short bake.  I see that ds-805 Baker's Pride look like what Pizza Town uses, but I am not experienced at all on deck ovens. 

You had a lot of history to add and I thank you for doing that.

Norma

Norma:  I could push my ovens to 600 but that would definetly char the bottoms even with careful watching.  For some people that char would be perfectly ok but for most, me included, would conclude they were burnt too much.  Hopefully Tom Lehman will step in here at some point and put the fact seal on alot of things.  Walter
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on August 22, 2014, 08:12:04 AM
Vito's, here in LA, bakes on screens in the bottom compartment for the first two minutes.  The pizza is then moved into the top compartment to be finished off.  Could that be one of the missing keys?

Jonas,

Thanks for telling us what Vito's in LA does.  I know I can use a pizza screen to keep my bottom crusts from burning too fast.  I have tried that for different formulations I have tried, from the recommendations of Peter.  I also know my top deck temperature is not as hot as my bottom deck.  My counter-top Baker's Pride is not as powerful as some of the other deck ovens. 

I wonder when pizza screens were invented, and who held the first patent for them.  I never saw pizzerias in NYC use pizza screens years ago.

I wonder what the missing keys were years ago.   

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: Johnny the Gent on August 22, 2014, 08:19:39 AM
Norma and Walter, thanks for sharing those videos.

The slice shown in Walter's embedded video, at the 8:40 mark instantly reminded me of Peter's Lehman slices. Something about the shape and look of the cornicione/rim. Peter's sliced do tend to be thinner towards the center, though.
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on August 22, 2014, 08:21:16 AM
Norma:  I could push my ovens to 600 but that would definetly char the bottoms even with careful watching.  For some people that char would be perfectly ok but for most, me included, would conclude they were burnt too much.  Hopefully Tom Lehman will step in here at some point and put the fact seal on alot of things.  Walter

Walter,

De Lorenzo's in Robbinsville does have char on the bottom crust of their pizzas.  I didn't think I would like that char, but somehow it works for a De Lorenzo's pizza.   

Maybe if we can think up enough questions for Tom Lehmann someone can start a new thread and see if he can provide some answers about deck ovens long ago.

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on August 22, 2014, 09:06:32 AM
Johnny,

There is a thread where Vincent (Vinnie) posts different things about his father, grandmother and grandfather if you or anyone is interested in reading more.

http://www.worldsfaircommunity.org/topic/244-mastro-pizza-pavilion/ (http://www.worldsfaircommunity.org/topic/244-mastro-pizza-pavilion/) 

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on August 22, 2014, 09:16:04 AM
maddyferr also posts on this thread.  http://staging.roadfood.com/Forums/m/tm.aspx?m=197589&fp=10&p=2 (http://staging.roadfood.com/Forums/m/tm.aspx?m=197589&fp=10&p=2) 

This is copied form one of his posts.

Mastro Pizza at the 1964-1965 World's Fair was a pavillion that show cased our family's business Frank Mastro Inc. started by my father  originally in 1925.  It was a restaurant, hotel and institution supplies business. At that time, commercial pizza was baked only by the huge wall ovens usually found in bakeries, but many Italian housewives made pizza and focaccia at home in their gas fired ovens.  My father strove to find a gas and coal fired oven that could become an adjunct to an Italian restaurant so that pizza could become part of their menu.  He originally by himself added a gas line to a commercial wood and coal oven to see if he could be successful in creating a portable oven that could do the job.  He was indeed sucessful and so the Mastro pizza oven was born.  After many models later, and with his work with Blodgett oven, Brooklyn Union Gas and Robert Shaw Controls a totally gas fired portable commercial pizza oven was produced in the late thirties and early 1940's.  My father definitely knew what the outcome would be, because he said at that time that pizza would become as popular as the american hot dog.  To get to the point.  The secret of the pizza baked at the Mastro Pizza pavillion at the Fair was keeping the ovens at their properly controlled heat so the yeast in the dough was grabbed at the right time to produce that puffy outer core and crisp center.  The recipe was basically my grandmother"s made in 100lb batches.  What was showcased at the Fair
was this dough which had been frozen and which was to be used in my brother, Vincent Mastro's new franchises "Pizza Plaza".  Unfortunately my brother Vincent died in November just as the Fair had closed and all of my father's and mother's dreams died with him.  My father had died previously in l957 at age 59, my brother followed at age 33.  Would the world of pizza be the same today were it not be for these two people Probably because pizza made properly is almost the perfect food, someone would have found a way to commercialize it.  But my dad's dedication to his profession and customers certainly brought it much sooner to fruition.


I find it interesting that pizza dough was frozen way back then.

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: Johnny the Gent on August 22, 2014, 10:31:31 AM
Johnny,

There is a thread where Vincent (Vinnie) posts different things about his father, grandmother and grandfather if you or anyone is interested in reading more.

http://www.worldsfaircommunity.org/topic/244-mastro-pizza-pavilion/ (http://www.worldsfaircommunity.org/topic/244-mastro-pizza-pavilion/) 

Norma

Norma, thank you for sharing the link!


  I was visiting my friends that own Mazzi's pizza in marion Oh and they run the exact same ovens.  He got all the recipes from his family's brooklyn pizzeria including cake yeast and eggs in the dough.  They bake a 10 minute pie in these ovens just like in the old days. 


Fascinating info Walter!  The idea of a 10 minute pie made with CY and eggs sounds funky and interesting to me, something I want to try. (I started a new topic as to not throw the line of discussion off point)
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: Pete-zza on September 27, 2014, 08:54:54 AM
For those who are interested in reading about the bake times that were used for the old classic NY/NJ pizzas baked in deck ovens will do well to read the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=34182.msg340076#msg340076 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=34182.msg340076#msg340076). There is also some good reading on oven bake times in another thread, starting at Reply 14 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=22794.msg233690#msg233690 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=22794.msg233690#msg233690).

Peter
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on July 31, 2015, 07:03:04 AM
Walter and I are searching to find out more about the evolution about pizza.  These are some articles I found.

Frank's Pizzeria started with a Mastro pizza oven.  In 1958, Frank purchased the Italian newspaper Il Progresso at Karolewski’s. In the newspaper, Frank saw an advertisement for a pizza making school located in New York. The program was sponsored by the Mastro Equipment Company. For only $600, the company would train you and provide you with a pizza oven, a work table, and a dozen pizza trays. Soon after, Frank left for New York and learned how to make his famous “cheese-under-the-sauce” pizza.

http://www.franks-pizzeria.com/iemain.html 

Another article that Says Pizza Pie Craze Capturing the Nation in the Victoria Advocate, dated October 17, 1957.  I thought there were interesting things in the article.  One of the things that caught my eye was it says stewed tomatoes were used. 

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=861&dat=19571017&id=NaxTAAAAIBAJ&sjid=EogDAAAAIBAJ&pg=7170,5331668&hl=en   

This is another article dated October 17, 1957, in the Milwaukee Journal about Pizza Threatening Hamburger and Hot Dog with a photo of a pizza back then.  I liked how they used to call a pizza “a big sloppy round one”.  :-D  I wonder why the pizzas were 15” in diameter.  In this article it says that Frank Mastro devised a pizza oven capable of making pizza at 600 degrees F needed for pizza.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1499&dat=19571017&id=s9cjAAAAIBAJ&sjid=eCUEAAAAIBAJ&pg=7292,4026973&hl=en   

On page 5 there is more about Pizza, but I think you have to click to page five in the upper right hand corner to see the page.  Some things that stood out to me was the article says B. C. Cohen whose Times square pizzatorium rolls out 9,000 pies a week.  A pizza chef commanded 100.00 to 125.00 a week back then.  Vincent S. Larosa of the Larosa Macaroni Co. did 2 ½ million dollars in home pizza mixes.  There are more interesting things on page 5. 

A article about how New York became a pizza capital by Michael German of Pizzacentric.com.  In this article Michael says. 

In 1958, the first year in which the phone book listed “pizza” as its own category, there were only 117 such eateries in the five boroughs — and just 10 in Manhattan, according to Berman’s research. Fast forward 12 years to 1970, and pizzerias listed in the phone book increase by 636%, to 861. By 2000, that number doubles to more than 1,600 listings for pizza in the Yellow Pages.

http://blogs.wsj.com/metropolis/2011/11/30/how-new-york-became-a-pizza-capital/   

This article in the New York times says 1944:  The Times discovers Pizza. 

It has been a staple of New York (not to mention newsrooms) for so long that it is hard to imagine a time when pizza needed an introduction. But that’s what it got on Sept. 20, 1944 — at a time when Italy was full of American troops who were acquiring a taste for the pies. Note the rare use of the plural “pizze”:

Three years later, on May 25, 1947, The Times noted the potential of this seemingly newfangled concoction. “The pizza could be as popular a snack as the hamburger if Americans only knew more about it”:
While The Times introduced pizza to readers on Sept. 20, 1944, the wordfirst appeared in the newspaper four years earlier, a passing mention in the last paragraph of a June 2, 1940 story headlined “Mrs. Belardi Regrets.” An earlier version of this item omitted the 1940 mention

http://www.nytimes.com/times-insider/2015/04/13/1944-the-times-discovers-pizza/?_r=0     

I wonder why the 1944 article states that the order was dough, mozzarella, then sauce and Parmesan if the comments are looked at.  It reminds me of a tomato pie. 

From one of the commentators Jimbo he says this: New York City readers were introduced to pizza through a widely published press release in the thirties from the Radio City Music Hall. It was a captioned photo of four Rockettes chowing down on the new delicacy and can be easily found in a web search.

I can't find that photo.  If someone else can find that photo it would be helpful.

By Steph:  Steph
 MD April 15, 2015
I am curious as to where the recipe for the dough came from, because it includes shortening, which would be heresy in today's world of artisanal wood-fired pizzas. Now I want pizza...

I found some more links which I will post later.

I wonder how the below recipe would look in baker's percents.

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on July 31, 2015, 11:27:57 AM
I called Dr. Frank Ferrentino yesterday, who is a relative of Frank Mastro.  Frank called me backed today and talked about interesting information about Frank Mastro and the whole family.  For now, until I get to talk to Frank's mother, that lives in NJ, Frank referred me to the Mastro Pizza Palvilion forum at:

http://www.worldsfaircommunity.org/topic/244-mastro-pizza-pavilion/?page=1   

There are many page on that thread if anyone is interested in reading them.  I will be talking to Frank Ferrentino again.  In the meantime Frank told me Frank Mastro knew Robert Moses very well and that is how Frank Mastro set up his pizza business at the World's Fair. 

If anyone wants to learn more about Robert Moses these are a couple links.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Moses

http://www.nypap.org/content/robert-moses

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/need-to-know/environment/the-legacy-of-robert-moses/16018/

http://nypost.com/2015/07/28/time-to-give-new-yorks-robert-moses-the-public-recognition-he-deserves/ 

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on August 01, 2015, 08:54:54 AM
In the link that was provided yesterday vangelo (Vinnie) posted this. 

My cousin worked the summers of '63 and '64 in the NY distribution facility making tons of Pizza dough balls that were frozen and sent to the Pizza Plaza stores. He worked there with one of my dad's business partner's, (Louie Lamonica?). He remembers that my Grandmother would bring in Baggies of some "secret ingredient" they would add to each 100-pound batch of dough.

Since Lamonica's has been making frozen pizza dough from 1962 it makes me wonder if the dough used at the World's Fair was Lamonica's dough with an some kind of secret ingredient added. 

Lamonica's website.

http://www.lamonicaspizzadough.com/www.lamonicaspizzadough.com/Home.html

If anyone is interested, these are some photos of pizzas and cups that were copied off the worldsfaircommunity thread, and a few photos of the Mastro Pizzeria at the World's Fair.  The last photos were of Frank Masto's model pizzeria in 1953. 

Norma

Edit:  I forgot to post the one photo.
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: waltertore on August 01, 2015, 10:05:40 AM
Great  stuff Norma!  My father took me the World's Fair and we ate pizza there.  What I remember was everything was bigger than life and like a fantasy.  I look forward to seeing how far we can go with learning about the history of deck oven NY/NJ pizza.  My ovens look to be the same design as the Mastro oven which Blodgett made for them.  I would jump on any of these old ovens/stones that are still out there and maybe our journey will lead us to some.  Walter
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on August 01, 2015, 11:35:05 AM
Great  stuff Norma!  My father took me the World's Fair and we ate pizza there.  What I remember was everything was bigger than life and like a fantasy.  I look forward to seeing how far we can go with learning about the history of deck oven NY/NJ pizza.  My ovens look to be the same design as the Mastro oven which Blodgett made for them.  I would jump on any of these old ovens/stones that are still out there and maybe our journey will lead us to some.  Walter

Walter,

Thanks!  I also went to the World's fair but don't recall eating pizza there.  I think we can learn a lot about the history of deck ovens in the NY/NJ area a long time ago.  I talked to Mrs. Ferrentino this morning and she sure is a treasure.  She recalls so many things no one else knows.

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: mitchjg on August 01, 2015, 01:17:11 PM
Walter,

Thanks!  I also went to the World's fair but don't recall eating pizza there.  I think we can learn a lot about the history of deck ovens in the NY/NJ area a long time ago.  I talked to Mrs. Ferrentino this morning and she sure is a treasure.  She recalls so many things no one else knows.

Norma

Funny memories.  I grew up about 1/2 mile or from the fairgrounds.  My friends and I spent the summer there, going quite often.  It was very affordable for us because we found a hole in the chain link fence - we would sneak under and then run like heck into the crowd!

I remember that, but I don't remember pizza there.  ;D
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on August 01, 2015, 01:39:14 PM
Funny memories.  I grew up about 1/2 mile or from the fairgrounds.  My friends and I spent the summer there, going quite often.  It was very affordable for us because we found a hole in the chain link fence - we would sneak under and then run like heck into the crowd!

I remember that, but I don't remember pizza there.  ;D

Mitch,

I agree it is funny what we recall and what we don't.  Thanks for sharing your story about going to the fair, and how you got in.   >:D :-D

I wonder if you did eat Mastro's pizza. 

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on August 01, 2015, 10:46:01 PM
In the below article it says when Blodgett pizza ovens first were made.  There is also a photo of a Blodgett oven circa 1947-1949.

http://www.uvm.edu/~hp206/2013/pages/obenauer/index.html 

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on August 02, 2015, 09:25:51 AM
I am not sure why I didn't think about spaghetti being popular in NYC before NY style pizza was.  When talking to Madeline yesterday she talked about how that happened.  Until more can be posted about Madeline I think the below article explains some of what happened.

http://apps.carleton.edu/curricular/amst/assets/From_Spaghetti_and_Meatballs_to_Pizza_Gurney.pdf

A podcast about how some of that happened. John Mariani chronicles the story of pizza and pasta in how Italian food conquered the world.  http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=134628158&m=134818916 (how Italian food became a Global sensation has to be clicked on to listen to the podcast) and the direct link to the article at http://www.npr.org/2011/03/24/134628158/how-italian-food-became-a-global-sensation

Madeline also explained how a basic marinara sauce, that was made fast, was used with fresh canned tomatoes, and how much better fresh mozzarella was a long time ago.  I think that is where stewed tomatoes for pizza sauce might have come from.

Another part article from a New Herald Tribune food columnist in 1939.

https://books.google.com/books?id=lpLwCQAAQBAJ&pg=PT195&lpg=PT195&dq=pizza+will+be+the+surprise+of+your+life+New+Herald+Tribune+food+columnist+in+1939&source=bl&ots=s2A8t9Yqvd&sig=PkMXlcrUF5ij1GzFyD-j4mnjdLQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAWoVChMIldfv67CKxwIVAuKACh0FKQAv#v=onepage&q=pizza%20will%20be%20the%20surprise%20of%20your%20life%20New%20Herald%20Tribune%20food%20columnist%20in%201939&f=false

Also an article on how GIs helped to bring the taste for oregano to America, which is used on some NY style pizzas, or in pizza sauce.

http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2015/05/09/405302961/gis-helped-bring-freedom-to-europe-and-a-taste-for-oregano-to-america

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: Pete-zza on August 02, 2015, 10:17:48 AM
I wonder how the below recipe would look in baker's percents.

Norma
Norma,

There are a couple of problems with trying to convert the recipe below to baker's percents. First, we don't know the weight or size of the piece of cake yeast. I did a search for cake yeast in the 1940's and found references to that form of yeast being sold by Fleischmann's, including a sketch, but I could not find any reference to weight or size. Maybe you can get in touch with Fleischmann's to see if they can tell you what a piece of cake yeast sold at retail in the 1940s weighed. The other problem with the recipe is that the flour is stated to be sifted. But we don't know if it means flour as sifted by the miller or a separate sifting at the home level.

Peter
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: caymus on August 02, 2015, 10:40:40 AM
Norma,

There are a couple of problems with trying to convert the recipe below to baker's percents. First, we don't know the weight or size of the piece of cake yeast. I did a search for cake yeast in the 1940's and found references to that form of yeast being sold by Fleischmann's, including a sketch, but I could not find any reference to weight or size. Maybe you can get in touch with Fleischmann's to see if they can tell you what a piece of cake yeast sold at retail in the 1940s weighed. The other problem with the recipe is that the flour is stated to be sifted. But we don't know if it means flour as sifted by the miller or a separate sifting at the home level.

Peter

My guess would be that in the 1940's most recipes would expect sifting right before use......maybe just to sift out any bugs.
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on August 02, 2015, 12:38:38 PM
Norma,

There are a couple of problems with trying to convert the recipe below to baker's percents. First, we don't know the weight or size of the piece of cake yeast. I did a search for cake yeast in the 1940's and found references to that form of yeast being sold by Fleischmann's, including a sketch, but I could not find any reference to weight or size. Maybe you can get in touch with Fleischmann's to see if they can tell you what a piece of cake yeast sold at retail in the 1940s weighed. The other problem with the recipe is that the flour is stated to be sifted. But we don't know if it means flour as sifted by the miller or a separate sifting at the home level.

Peter

Peter,

I didn't think about what weight or size the piece of cake yeast was for the recipe.  Thanks for searching for cake yeast sold in the 1940's and finding references to that form of yeast being sold by Fleischmann's, including a sketch.  I will get in touch with Fleischmann's to see if they can tell me what a piece of cake yeast, sold at retail in the 1940's weighed. 

I sure don't know, but would think the flour would be needed to be sifted at home for that recipe.  I know my mother always sifted any flour she used for anything.  Did you search if AP flour needed sifted for home recipes around 1940's?

To add to that I am sure you are aware that The Food and Drug Administation (FDA) adopted the term “enriched” as the descriptive term for the addition of nutrients to flour in 1940. 

http://nefoods.com/pdf/70-Years-of-Enrichment.pdf and http://everydaylife.globalpost.com/fda-require-flour-enriched-21505.html

I think the flour-enrichment law said white flour must have added these ingredients:

Niacin/Niacinamide (Vitamin BE
Thiamine (A B1 Vitamin)
Riboflavin (vitamin B2)
Folic acid (a B vitamin)
Iron

Taste of Home magazine has a recipe for pizza dough back in the 1940's but I can't seem to find that article for the recipe, or if the flour needs sifting. 

Maybe Madeline will also share her recipe for dough.  Madeline said she still makes her pizza dough just like her mother did. 

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on August 02, 2015, 12:42:09 PM
My guess would be that in the 1940's most recipes would expect sifting right before use......maybe just to sift out any bugs.

caymus,

That is my guess too that in the 1940's most recipes would expect sifting right before use.  Thanks!

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: David Esq. on August 02, 2015, 01:39:58 PM
I believe that flour was sifted for the same reason we weigh it. To make sure that the volume of a cup of flour does not vary according to how compacted it is.
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: waltertore on August 02, 2015, 02:49:55 PM
 just got off the phone with my mother (87 this year) and asked her what size the yeast cakes were when she was a kid.  She use to eat them as candy in the 30's-40's and told me the fleishmans cakes were 2 cents each and were either 1 or 2 ounces.  I thought that might help with your recipe posted on the forum.  She also told me about Di Salvos bakery that her sisters husband family ran.  They hand delivered Italian bread every day to their house and made dough for Di Salvos pizzeria in Kearny NJ.   She said that was the only pizzeria around when she was growing up.  She said all the Italians, including her mother, made Grandma's pizzas at home.  Her brother owned a sheet metal company in Harrison and he made the pans for the pizzas.  My mother said she never ate pizza out. I asked her about times square and she said she was there often as a teen but never ate pizza out because her mother always made it at home.  She said Italians usually made that pie at home and didn't go out for pizza, thus there wasn't many places making it.   Walter
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on August 02, 2015, 04:21:56 PM
just got off the phone with my mother (87 this year) and asked her what size the yeast cakes were when she was a kid.  She use to eat them as candy in the 30's-40's and told me the fleishmans cakes were 2 cents each and were either 1 or 2 ounces.  I thought that might help with your recipe posted on the forum.  Walter

Thanks Walter for telling us that the cake yeast cubes were either 1 or 2 ounces.

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: Pete-zza on August 02, 2015, 06:16:18 PM
Peter,

Did you search if AP flour needed sifted for home recipes around 1940's?

Norma
Norma,

Yes, I did a separate search for Fleischmann's dough recipes and found several of them in a Fleischmann's book entitled The Bread Basket Cookbook and copyrighted in the 1940s that called for sifting the flour. I also saw other recipes that specified that the flour be unsifted or where there was no indication that the flour be sifted or unsifted. So, I would agree with the other members who believe that if a recipe calls for sifted flour, the sifting is done in the home.

Thus far, I have not found any weights or sizes for the Fleischmann's cake yeast packages. However, they apparently were very popular. In addition to being used to make baked goods, the fresh yeast cakes were used in drinks (with water, juice or milk), to cure constipation, to improve the skin, to give energy, to provide nutrition, etc. The tins that contained the fresh yeast cakes said to use two or three of them daily.

If you are able to get size or weight information out of Fleischmann's, you might also inquire as to whether the fresh yeast used in the 1940s was similar to what is used today and, if today's cake yeast is materially different, what conversion rate would be used today.

Peter
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on August 02, 2015, 11:09:31 PM
Norma,

Yes, I did a separate search for Fleischmann's dough recipes and found several of them in a Fleischmann's book entitled The Bread Basket Cookbook and copyrighted in the 1940s that called for sifting the flour. I also saw other recipes that specified that the flour be unsifted or where there was no indication that the flour be sifted or unsifted. So, I would agree with the other members who believe that if a recipe calls for sifted flour, the sifting is done in the home.

Thus far, I have not found any weights or sizes for the Fleischmann's cake yeast packages. However, they apparently were very popular. In addition to being used to make baked goods, the fresh yeast cakes were used in drinks (with water, juice or milk), to cure constipation, to improve the skin, to give energy, to provide nutrition, etc. The tins that contained the fresh yeast cakes said to use two or three of them daily.

If you are able to get size or weight information out of Fleischmann's, you might also inquire as to whether the fresh yeast used in the 1940s was similar to what is used today and, if today's cake yeast is materially different, what conversion rate would be used today.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling us that you did a separate search for Fleischmann's dough recipes about sifting flour, and then telling us what you found out

I will ask the question if the Fleischmann's cake yeast was the same back in 1940.  I saw on Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fleischmann%27s_Yeast that the one photo shows the cake yeast was good for a laxative and tonic.  It also looks like it was good for almost anything.  :-D It appears the cake yeast was in a flatter shape a long time ago (if the lower right corner on the right side is looked at).  It appears like the Flesichmann's cake yeast is now 0.6 oz., and is in more of a cube shaped, and does have corn starch added.

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on August 02, 2015, 11:12:11 PM
Maybe I need to eat some of that Fleischmann's yeast.

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: jvp123 on August 02, 2015, 11:32:13 PM
Me too!  ;)
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on August 03, 2015, 08:41:43 AM
Norma,


Thus far, I have not found any weights or sizes for the Fleischmann's cake yeast packages. However, they apparently were very popular. In addition to being used to make baked goods, the fresh yeast cakes were used in drinks (with water, juice or milk), to cure constipation, to improve the skin, to give energy, to provide nutrition, etc. The tins that contained the fresh yeast cakes said to use two or three of them daily.


Peter

Peter,

I copied this photo off of ebay this morning.  The wrapper of the cake yeast says it weights 2.6 oz.  The listing on ebay for the articles said they were from 1936.

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on August 03, 2015, 09:19:57 AM
Thanks Norma...this is some great stuff.

And from the last link, there's this

 So much so that in a 1939 column, the New York Herald Tribune's food writer felt it necessary to explain what a pizza pie was and that it was pronounced "peet-za."

Hmmm. I've heard that name somewhere  :-D
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on August 03, 2015, 09:34:24 AM

And from the last link, there's this

 So much so that in a 1939 column, the New York Herald Tribune's food writer felt it necessary to explain what a pizza pie was and that it was pronounced "peet-za."

Hmmm. I've heard that name somewhere  :-D

Bill,

I heard that name before too.   :-D  I called about the cake yeast and no one could give me any information about sizes of fresh yeast back then.  Brad said there were different sizes of the fresh yeast.  The man I spoke to did say he didn't think cornstarch was added back in 1940 to the fresh yeast.  I now have to wait to call their Breadworld number.

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on August 03, 2015, 10:30:33 AM
Norma,

If you are able to get size or weight information out of Fleischmann's, you might also inquire as to whether the fresh yeast used in the 1940s was similar to what is used today and, if today's cake yeast is materially different, what conversion rate would be used today.

Peter


Peter,

I wasn't able to find out the weight information for the fresh yeast Fleischmann's sold back in 1940 because they made different sizes of cake yeast.  I read the recipe to Barb at the Bread World of Fleischmann's, and she said she would recommend to use 2 cakes of the 0.6 oz. Fleischmann's yeast for the 6 cups of flour based on the amount of time it said to let the dough rise.  I know the recipe is for a cake pan pizza.  When I talked to Madeline she said she still makes pizza like Walter's grandmother did and Madeline bakes at 420 degrees F.

I think you saw where I posted that fresh yeast was not made with cornstarch in 1940. Brad did tell me their cake yeast is very similar to what is used today.

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: Pete-zza on August 04, 2015, 09:07:33 PM
Norma,

I decided to take a stab at converting the recipe shown below into baker's percent format, but using two 0.60 ounce cubes of cake yeast. But before setting forth the final dough formulation, a few comments are in order.

First, I note that the recipe calls for about 6 cups sifted all-purpose flour. However, that can mean two different possible measurements. It could mean taking six cups of flours and then sifting it or it can mean sifting six cups of flour and then measuring it out. Faced with this dilemma, I did a search. One of the hits was for Rose Levy Beranbaum's website, at http://www.realbakingwithrose.com/2006/03/what_is_the_difference_between.html#.VcFL0YfbIdU (http://www.realbakingwithrose.com/2006/03/what_is_the_difference_between.html#.VcFL0YfbIdU). As you can see from Rose's answer, when a recipe calls for 1 cup sifted flour that means to set the cup on a counter and sift the flour into the cup until it mounds above the top. Then, with a metal spatula or knife, level it off. She says to be sure to use a cup with an unbroken rim, referred to as a dry measure as opposed to a liquid measure which has a spout. With this second method you will have the least amount of flour because the flour is aerated. She says not to be tempted to shake the cup or tap it as that compacts the flour.

Whether the above sifting method is the one intended by the recipe is unclear but in the absence of better information I decided to follow Rose's method. On that basis, and using the King Arthur all-purpose flour and the Light flour Measurement Method of the Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator at http://foodsim.toastguard.com/ (http://foodsim.toastguard.com/), I came up with 759.35 grams for the weight of the KAAP flour on a sifted basis. As a side matter with respect to the flour, according to the General Mills heritage document at http://web.archive.org/web/20100105084108/http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/ourheritage.aspx (http://web.archive.org/web/20100105084108/http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/ourheritage.aspx), in 1961 GM decided to do away with the sifting of flour and to replace the sifting method with the dip and level method. But that 1961 entry seems to confirm the earlier practice of sifting the flour.

For the hydration, I decided to use 8 ounces per cup of water. That is lower than the standard 8.345 ounces but I know that many people use 8 ounces for a cup of water. On that basis, the hydration value I came up with is 67.203%. At first blush that may seem high for an all-purpose flour but keep in mind that the dough recipe is for a pan pizza where the dough is patted and stretched out by hand. This might require a fairly high hydration. It might even be higher if the amount of water is more than 8 ounces per cup. As an example, if we use the 8.345 ounces per cup number, the hydration rises to about 70%. Note also that the recipe below says "about" six cups of flour. So that number can go either way. Moreover. different brands of all-purpose flour can have different weights for six cups of sifted flour. For example, six cups of sifted Gold Medal all-purpose flour weighs about 769 grams. As you may know, both King Arthur and General Mills were around in the 1940s.

With the above as background, this is the dough formulation I ended up with:

King Arthur All-Purpose Flour (100%):
Water (67.203%):
CY (4.48%):
Salt (1.47%):
Sugar (0.523%):
Shortening (3.1499%):
Total (176.8259%):
759.39 g  |  26.79 oz | 1.67 lbs
510.33 g  |  18 oz | 1.13 lbs
34.02 g | 1.2 oz | 0.08 lbs |
11.16 g | 0.39 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2 tsp | 0.67 tbsp
3.97 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
23.92 g | 0.84 oz | 0.05 lbs | 5.99 tsp | 2 tbsp
1342.8 g | 47.37 oz | 2.96 lbs | TF = N/A

Note: The total formula water is divided into one-quarter cup (2 ounces) for prehydrating the cake yeast and 2 cups (16 ounces) for dissolving other ingredients called for in the recipe.

Peter
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on August 05, 2015, 01:56:28 PM
Norma,

I decided to take a stab at converting the recipe shown below into baker's percent format, but using two 0.60 ounce cubes of cake yeast. But before setting forth the final dough formulation, a few comments are in order.

First, I note that the recipe calls for about 6 cups sifted all-purpose flour. However, that can mean two different possible measurements. It could mean taking six cups of flours and then sifting it or it can mean sifting six cups of flour and then measuring it out. Faced with this dilemma, I did a search. One of the hits was for Rose Levy Beranbaum's website, at http://www.realbakingwithrose.com/2006/03/what_is_the_difference_between.html#.VcFL0YfbIdU (http://www.realbakingwithrose.com/2006/03/what_is_the_difference_between.html#.VcFL0YfbIdU). As you can see from Rose's answer, when a recipe calls for 1 cup sifted flour that means to set the cup on a counter and sift the flour into the cup until it mounds above the top. Then, with a metal spatula or knife, level it off. She says to be sure to use a cup with an unbroken rim, referred to as a dry measure as opposed to a liquid measure which has a spout. With this second method you will have the least amount of flour because the flour is aerated. She says not to be tempted to shake the cup or tap it as that compacts the flour.

Whether the above sifting method is the one intended by the recipe is unclear but in the absence of better information I decided to follow Rose's method. On that basis, and using the King Arthur all-purpose flour and the Light flour Measurement Method of the Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator at http://foodsim.toastguard.com/ (http://foodsim.toastguard.com/), I came up with 759.35 grams for the weight of the KAAP flour on a sifted basis. As a side matter with respect to the flour, according to the General Mills heritage document at http://web.archive.org/web/20100105084108/http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/ourheritage.aspx (http://web.archive.org/web/20100105084108/http://www.gmflour.com/gmflour/ourheritage.aspx), in 1961 GM decided to do away with the sifting of flour and to replace the sifting method with the dip and level method. But that 1961 entry seems to confirm the earlier practice of sifting the flour.

For the hydration, I decided to use 8 ounces per cup of water. That is lower than the standard 8.345 ounces but I know that many people use 8 ounces for a cup of water. On that basis, the hydration value I came up with is 67.203%. At first blush that may seem high for an all-purpose flour but keep in mind that the dough recipe is for a pan pizza where the dough is patted and stretched out by hand. This might require a fairly high hydration. It might even be higher if the amount of water is more than 8 ounces per cup. As an example, if we use the 8.345 ounces per cup number, the hydration rises to about 70%. Note also that the recipe below says "about" six cups of flour. So that number can go either way. Moreover. different brands of all-purpose flour can have different weights for six cups of sifted flour. For example, six cups of sifted Gold Medal all-purpose flour weighs about 769 grams. As you may know, both King Arthur and General Mills were around in the 1940s.

With the above as background, this is the dough formulation I ended up with:

King Arthur All-Purpose Flour (100%):
Water (67.203%):
CY (4.48%):
Salt (1.47%):
Sugar (0.523%):
Shortening (3.1499%):
Total (176.8259%):
759.39 g  |  26.79 oz | 1.67 lbs
510.33 g  |  18 oz | 1.13 lbs
34.02 g | 1.2 oz | 0.08 lbs |
11.16 g | 0.39 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2 tsp | 0.67 tbsp
3.97 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
23.92 g | 0.84 oz | 0.05 lbs | 5.99 tsp | 2 tbsp
1342.8 g | 47.37 oz | 2.96 lbs | TF = N/A

Note: The total formula water is divided into one-quarter cup (2 ounces) for prehydrating the cake yeast and 2 cups (16 ounces) for dissolving other ingredients called for in the recipe.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks so much for taking a stab at converting the recipe to a baker's percent format. 

I noted that the recipe calls for 6 cups sifted all-purpose flour.  I didn't think about that could mean two different possible measurements.  I am glad you searched and found out about what the Rose Levy Beranbaum's method was for sifting flour.  I don't recall seeing that method before. 

Thanks also for the information that General Mills heritage document, and GM deciding to do away with sifting of flour in 1961, and then going to the dip and level method.

I understand about your comments about the hydration, and am glad you decided on using 8 ounces per cup of water.  I agree at first blush that hydration does appear high, but understand that it is for a pan pizza where the dough is patted out by hand, so that hydration isn't really that bad. 

Thanks for pointing out that different brands of all-purpose flour can have different weights for six cups of sifted flour. 

I will try out your formula as soon as I can purchase some cake yeast.  As for shortening I guess that would be lard.  I will also purchase some of the KAAP. 

I also have to find where I stored my grandmother's cake pans.  I guess I shouldn't use a steel pan.  I will decrease your formulation, to see how it works out first, before making a full batch.

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on August 06, 2015, 06:59:19 PM
It was planning to purhase all of the ingredients for the recipe Peter set forth today, and mix the dough and then make the pizza, but Weis was out of Fleischmann's cake yeast today.  The deli manager said they should be getting a new shipment in tomorrow.

These are the ingredients so far.  The last time I tried anchovies I didn't like them, but will try again.

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on August 06, 2015, 07:40:01 PM
Hold on there, Norma! Where's that recipe for peach, onion, anchovy pizza ?:-D  Anchovies are a favorite of mine...but a little goes a long way. If you didn't like them before...well, maybe just pass that slice to old JPB, here. I'll make short work of it   :)
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on August 06, 2015, 08:11:36 PM
Hold on there, Norma! Where's that recipe for peach, onion, anchovy pizza ?:-D  Anchovies are a favorite of mine...but a little goes a long way. If you didn't like them before...well, maybe just pass that slice to old JPB, here. I'll make short work of it   :)

Bill,

No peaches.  They were just used so the onion wouldn't fall.  I am not going to put a lot of anchovies on.  I can't recall the last time I tried anchovies.  Thanks for telling me a little goes a long way.  ;) I'll pass the whole pie on to you if I don't like the anchovies.

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on August 06, 2015, 08:50:21 PM
Sold  :-D

Thanks for the smile, Norma !  Actually, kidding aside, I have a couple of non-pizza recipes with anchovies ..one, an African-inspired chicken  stew with a tomato -peanut sauce that  incorporates a tin of anchovies. You might not know you were tasting them in the finished dish but it adds a great complexity to the flavor.

I found the recipe online that's exactly the one we have in our well-worn dog-eared 1989 Betty Crocker International  Cook Book


Quote
Chicken in Groundnut Sauce

"Groundnut" is another name for the peanut. In this African dish, peanut butter thickens and flavors a spicy, hot tomato sauce that coats the chicken. We recommend serving this dish with raw peanuts, chutney and cooling vegetables like sliced cucumber and green pepper.

1 can (1 ounce) anchovy fillets
2 tablespoons peanut or vegetable oil
2½- to 3-pound broiler-fryer chicken, cut up
1 cup hot water
2 tablespoons tomato paste
1 can (14½ ounces) whole tomatoes (with liquid)
1 medium onion, sliced
1 clove garlic, finely chopped
3 to 4 dried chilies, crumbled
1 tablespoon chopped candied ginger or ¼ teaspoon grated gingerroot
1½ teaspoons chili powder
½ teaspoon salt
1 to 1½ cups crunchy peanut butter
Accompaniments
Whole chilies
Drain oil from anchovies into Dutch oven; add peanut oil. Heat until hot. Cook chicken over medium heat until brown on all sides, about 15 minutes. Remove chicken. Drain fat from Dutch oven. Heat anchovies, water, tomato paste, tomatoes, onion, garlic, dried chilies, ginger, chili powder and salt to boiling in Dutch oven; reduce heat. Cover and simmer 10 minutes. Add chicken; cover and simmer 45 minutes.

Stir some of the hot liquid into peanut butter; stir back into chicken mixture. Turn chicken to coat with sauce. Cover and cook until chicken is done, 10 to 15 minutes. Serve with a selection of Accompaniments; garnish with whole chilies.
8 servings

Accompaniments:
Fried sliced plantains, chopped raw peanuts, chutney, chopped tomatoes, diced green pepper, chopped onion, diced cucumber.

Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on August 06, 2015, 10:44:01 PM
Sold  :-D

Thanks for the smile, Norma !  Actually, kidding aside, I have a couple of non-pizza recipes with anchovies ..one, an African-inspired chicken  stew with a tomato -peanut sauce that  incorporates a tin of anchovies. You might not know you were tasting them in the finished dish but it adds a great complexity to the flavor.

I found the recipe online that's exactly the one we have in our well-worn dog-eared 1989 Betty Crocker International  Cook Book

Bill,

Thanks for giving your recipe for the African-inspired chicken stew with those dang anchovies.  I was reading up on what anchovies really taste like.  I think I picked the wrong brand of anchovies to try out from the seriouseats taste tests.   :-D  Maybe only half of the pizza with have any anchovies on it. 

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on August 09, 2015, 08:32:29 AM
If anyone is interested, Walter and I have been working more on finding out how the evolution of NY style pizza started, and then evolved.  Walter has recorded Madeline talking about what she recalls, since she started helping her father when she was 9 yrs. old.  Madeline now is 89 years old.  She has a fantastic memory.  The first recording Walter did was over 1 hr.  If all goes well Walter might do another recording of Madeline.  Walter's and my goal is to have an article in PMQ magazine about Frank Mastro, their family, Madeline and how they all contributed to the NY style of pizza.  Madeline had wanted to gather everything together about her father, how he started working on the first deck oven, and everything else that happened, but that never happened.

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on August 09, 2015, 12:16:14 PM
I purchased Fleischmann's cake yeast this past Friday.  I then decided to make the dough and pizza this morning.  There are too many tomatoes that are all coming ripe at the same time in my garden, so I decided to use Les's method to make sauce.  The Scalfani crushed tomatoes were used with Les's method.  I chickened out about putting anchovies on the top of the pizza so two anchovies were incorporated into the sauce.  :angel: In my opinion those combinations made a very tasty sauce when eaten plain, or when baked on the pizza.  When tasting an anchovy it wasn't really bad.  :)

The dough was easy to mix by hand.  The dough had a very yeasty smell and rose fast.  It could easily be flattened into the pan.  I would have made a thinner pizza in a pan but didn't know what TF to use, because the formulation doesn't have a TF.  A piece of dough was cut off and balled, then frozen to be tried at market on Tuesday.  All in all I thought this pizza was very tasty.  The crust even tasted good.  All of the ingredients in the recipe at Reply 140 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14920.msg391142#msg391142 were used.  Thanks Peter for setting forth the formulation!

The only other problem, other than the TF, was that there were too many dishes to do. My one daughter ate a slice and I ate two.  The rest of the pizza will go over to where my mom lives tonight.

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on August 09, 2015, 12:21:58 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on August 09, 2015, 12:25:22 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on August 09, 2015, 12:26:27 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: Pete-zza on August 09, 2015, 12:40:55 PM
Norma,

I'm glad the recipe worked out well for you. Congratulations on making a 1940's era pizza ;D.

One of the things I forgot to mention to you in Reply 140 that you referenced is that sifting the flour allows you to "squeeze" more water into the flour to hydrate it more completely. As you can see from some experiments I conducted and described in Reply 56 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg39803#msg39803 , I was able to use a hydration value of 65% with a GM all-purpose flour without encountering any problems. Maybe I could have gone even higher, but I never conducted that experiment. It looks like you didn't have any problems using the higher hydration value.

Peter
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on August 09, 2015, 01:56:10 PM
Norma,

I'm glad the recipe worked out well for you. Congratulations on making a 1940's era pizza ;D.

One of the things I forgot to mention to you in Reply 140 that you referenced is that sifting the flour allows you to "squeeze" more water into the flour to hydrate it more completely. As you can see from some experiments I conducted and described in Reply 56 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg39803#msg39803 , I was able to use a hydration value of 65% with a GM all-purpose flour without encountering any problems. Maybe I could have gone even higher, but I never conducted that experiment. It looks like you didn't have any problems using the higher hydration value.

Peter

Peter,

I was born in the 1940's so I am glad I tried a dough and pizza from then.  8)

No, I didn't have any problems with the higher hydration dough, but it was for a pan instead of what you were doing.  The dough was a little tacky but really not bad at all. The dough transferred from the table to the pan easily.  The dough reminded me of some NP doughs I have tried as far as being soft.  Thanks for referencing your post at Reply 56.  You did well using your two methods of mixing the doughs with that high of a hydration using GM all-purpose flour, and your GMAP1 dough sounded exceptional. 

I can understand how sifting the flour allows us to “squeeze” more water into the flour.

The salt, sugar and lard were dissolved in the boiling water, cooled, then the cake yeast water was added to that.  I am guessing that is something like you when you dissolved the salt in the water, then gradually added flour.  I also gradually added flour while hand mixing, before taking the dough out of the bowl and then hand kneading with some rests. 

The dough was left on the table, under the plastic container, for about 20 minutes while other things were gotten ready.  The dough really fermented a lot in that amount of time. 

I think I could have stretched that dough instead of pressing, but really don't know because that wasn't tried. 

I forgot to post that I used John F. Martin pure lard for the dough formulation. 

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: Pete-zza on August 09, 2015, 02:23:52 PM
Peter,

I forgot to post that I used John F. Martin pure lard for the dough formulation. 

Norma
Norma,

I don't know what shortening products were like in the 1940s, but Crisco shortening was invented long before that (in 1911) and was available in the 1940s. Lard was perhaps much like it is today. On a weight/volume basis, the two products are quite similar.

Peter
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on August 09, 2015, 02:44:27 PM
Norma,

I don't know what shortening products were like in the 1940s, but Crisco shortening was invented long before that (in 1911) and was available in the 1940s. Lard was perhaps much like it is today. On a weight/volume basis, the two products are quite similar.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me that Crisco shortening was invented in 1911 and was available in the 1940's.  I also think that lard is like Crisco used to be.  I recall when Crisco was a lot different than it is now.  Thanks for telling us that on a weight/volume basis the two products are quite similar.

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on August 11, 2015, 09:25:29 PM
The dough ball that was frozen right after it was balled made a good NY style pizza today.  I posted about that dough from Peter's formulation at Reply 148 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14920.msg391555#msg391555  There were four ice packs used to try to keep the dough ball from overfermenting while it defrosted in the little cooler.  That method worked.  When the dough ball was taken out of the cooler it was cold, but not frozen.  It rose fast at room temperature, and the gas build-up could be seen in the one photo by the bulging red lid.  The dough opened very easily with no rips or tears.  The dough was very strong in the sense that it handled nicely for being a hand mixed dough.  The same sauce that was used on Sunday was used again.  Today a blend of cheddar and mozzarella was used as the cheeses.  There was good oven spring today.

Thanks again Peter!

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on August 11, 2015, 09:29:24 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on August 11, 2015, 09:32:30 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: Pete-zza on August 11, 2015, 09:43:14 PM
Norma,

Glad to have helped. It was fun trying to figure out how to convert the original recipe to baker's percent format.

For an all-purpose flour, the pizza looks very good and tasty. But all-purpose flour was what was commonly used in the 1940s.

Peter
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on August 11, 2015, 10:03:21 PM
Norma,

Glad to have helped. It was fun trying to figure out how to convert the original recipe to baker's percent format.

For an all-purpose flour, the pizza looks very good and tasty. But all-purpose flour was what was commonly used in the 1940s.

Peter

Peter,

I am glad you thought it was fun trying to figure out how to convert the original recipe to baker's percent format.  I sure couldn't have done that.  I thought all-purpose flour was commonly used in the 1940's for pizzas.  I wonder what other flour options were available in the 1940's. 

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: Pete-zza on August 11, 2015, 10:25:47 PM
Norma,

According to Evelyne Slomon, at Reply 298 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=1258.msg37081;topicseen#msg37081 , during Workd War II, pizzerias apparently used whatever flours they could get their hands on. So, there must have been some kind of scarcity. But, in general, it looks like the flours at the time were relatively low or medium in protein, malted, bleached and bromated. However, I do not believe that the all-purpose flours at the time were bromated. That is still the case today.

Peter
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on August 11, 2015, 11:11:51 PM
Norma,

According to Evelyne Slomon, at Reply 298 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=1258.msg37081;topicseen#msg37081 , during World War II, pizzerias apparently used whatever flours they could get their hands on. So, there must have been some kind of scarcity. But, in general, it looks like the flours at the time were relatively low or medium in protein, malted, bleached and bromated. However, I do not believe that the all-purpose flours at the time were bromated. That is still the case today.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for referencing Evelyne Slomon's post at Reply 298.  I might have to try Evelyne's Lombardi formula after I try a Lombardi pizza. 

When I was looking for old photos of pizzas I came across the photo posted below.  From what I read that was supposed to be Lombardi's years ago.  I think in a few days I will be able to taste a Grimaldi's pizza.

Norma

Edit:  I made a mistake in the photo I posted.  The photo shows what would have been where Grimaldi's pizzeria is now 185 years ago. https://ephemeralnewyork.wordpress.com/2015/07/20/what-brooklyn-looked-like-in-summer-1820/ 
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: Pete-zza on August 12, 2015, 09:25:36 AM
Peter,

Thanks for referencing Evelyne Slomon's post at Reply 298.  I might have to try Evelyne's Lombardi formula after I try a Lombardi pizza. 

Norma
Norma,

If you search Evelyne's posts on the NY board using Lombardi as a search term, you should find other posts where she described the Lombardi dough formulations. I believe I included those posts in Reply 37 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14920.msg148840#msg148840 but you might find what you are looking for quicker from an independent search.

Peter
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on August 12, 2015, 10:36:49 AM
Norma,

If you search Evelyne's posts on the NY board using Lombardi as a search term, you should find other posts where she described the Lombardi dough formulations. I believe I included those posts in Reply 37 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14920.msg148840#msg148840 but you might find what you are looking for quicker from an independent search.

Peter


Peter,

Thanks again!  I forgot about all of the posts linked to Evelyne by you right here on this thread at Reply 37.  I will look through those posts.

I talked with Madeline this morning and it was interesting what she had to say about Louie (Gigi) Lamonica.  http://lamonicaspizzadough.com/www.lamonicaspizzadough.com/Home.html The connection with Louie and Frank Mastro is very interesting to me.  I told Madeline that Lamonica's now makes dough in CA and Italy and even has distributions to AU.  Of course Madeline talked about many other things I didn't know before.  I gave Madeline Lamonica's phone number in Brooklyn, NY.

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on September 05, 2015, 09:00:45 AM
This article from The Italian Academy for Advanced Studies in America was found from some searching.  The highlighted parts are what I copied about pizza.  It looks like recipes for pizza and other articles were written about pizzas awhile ago.

http://italianacademy.columbia.edu/sites/default/files/papers/paper_sp04_Cinotto.pdf

21 Rian James, Dining in New York, New York, John Day Company, 1930. 22 Jane Nickerson, “Hot, Hearty Pizza,” The New York Times Magazine, May 25, 1947, p. 42-43. 23 Herbert Mitgang, “For the Love of Pizza - An Old Italian Treat Is Sweeping the Nation – It’s a Meal-in-a-dish So Succulent, Composers Have Written Songs About It,” Collier’s, March 7, 1953, p. 67-70. 24 Richard Gehman, “Crazy About Pizza – Call It Tomato Pie, Pizza Pie or Just Plain Pizza, This Delectable, Pungent Italian Concoction Is Giving the Hot Dog a Run for the Money as the Favorite American Snack,” Saturday Evening Post, November 30, 1957, p. 32-60.
25 Herbert Mitgang, “Pizza a la Mode – In Many Variations Italy’s Famous Pie Now Rivals the Hot Dog In Popularity,” The New York Times Magazine, February 12, 1956, p. 64-66. 26 Herbert Mitgang, “For the Love of Pizza.” 27 Dorothy Kirk, “Pizza Pies… the American Way,” Woman’s Home Companion, September 1955, p. 42-43. 28 Good Housekeeping, October 1958, p. 149. 29 Hedda Poli, “Yankee Pizza – Pizza Pie Is an Italian Triumph That We’ve Imported With Joy – But There Are Americans Ways To Make It – Here They Are,” Good Housekeeping, August 1951, p. 152; “The Americanized Pizza… and How To Eat One – An Italian Dish Rivals the Hot Dog,” Look, November 1954, p. 114-115; Dorothy Kirk, “Pizza Pies.”


A good starting point to observe how popular magazines dealt with Italian Food in the 1950s is the case of pizza. Before the war, most non-Italian Americans were completely unfamiliar with it. A 1930 guide to dining out in New York defined it “a inch-thick, potato pan-cake, sprinkled with Parmesan cheese and stewed tomatoes.”21 In 1947, The New York Times Magazine introduced readers to a recipe for making pizza at home, claiming that the Italian specialty, a favorite in New York’s Little Italies, “could be as popular a snack as the hamburger, if only the Americans knew more about it.”22 The prescience is astonishing, as a national market for pizza was created overnight. The same process of appropriation, naturalization, and “mechanical reproduction” on a mass scale that had been applied to spaghetti was completed in a matter of months, in a much smoother way, and for a larger market. And certainly pizza owed its quick success to the technological advances of giant food processing and marketing – then in their heyday - as much as to its reliance on the same culinary triangle (dough, tomato sauce, melted cheese) popularized by its predecessor, or to the image of Italian eating places as informal and enjoyable. Popular magazines significantly contributed to the mass marketing of the new item. They gave accounts of the Neapolitan origins of Pizza. The most recurrent story (as told by Italian American pizza makers in Manhattan, who were interviewed en masse in those days) was that, around 1746, King Ferdinand of Bourbon casually noticed a baker making dough into flat, round pies. The king loved the pizzas and ordered the baker as the royal cook. Pizza - magazines were quick to recognize - had a long and glorious tradition in Naples. Nevertheless, the modernization that it was undergoing in America was just making it better. When President Eisenhower, by saying out of his heart that he had eaten better pizza in New York than in Naples, “caused an international incident” with touchy Italians, Collier’s readily, if implicitly, took side with the President. The best pizza was American-made.23 Magazines told about the ingenuity of independent Italian Americans who were raising big profits out of pizza in unlikely places like Odessa, Texas.24 But what they mostly focused on was the ability of the food industry to take an unknown foreign dish, rework it in spotlessly clean factories, and deliver it to Americans from coast to coast as a delicious, cheap, and uniformly produced snack food. The might of food processing companies was not to be concealed to the readers, but stressed. In 1956, The New York Times Magazine reported, “in New Jersey a belt-line assembles pizza as if they were General Motors tanks. Dough shell goes on line, plop goes cheese, squirt goes tomato sauce, shake goes oregano, plastic wrappers enfolds, label stamps, boxed, next.” The author of the article defined the mechanization of pizza production a progress to be accounted to “the American way of life, the free enterprise system and the capitalistic interplay of supply and demand.”25 No attempts were made, either, to hide the repetitive and demanding labor involved in the mechanized pizza production. A 1953 Collier’s article featured a picture showing working women assembling and wrapping pizzas on a fast assembly line, with a remarkable confidence in the aesthetics of Fordism, the magic of science and technology, and the consumer interest in convenience and uniform quality. Finally, the global provenience of ingredients, far from being the cause of concern it is nowadays, was underscored as a proof of capitalist inventiveness. The pizza that Nino Food Products, Inc. of Newark, New Jersey, flied in thousands a week to Ohio, Illinois and Michigan, was “a real international pie: plum tomatoes from California, olive oil from Castelvetrano in Sicily, and pure black pepper from the Pacific area.”26 In adherence to a consumer culture focused on family, home, and domesticity, magazines provided readers with much advice about making pizza at home. The target of articles, recipe columns, and ads were women imagined as constantly seeking out new, simple, but a little intriguing cooking ways to please their husbands and children. Mass-marketed products were there to satisfy feminine urges for self-gratification. In alternative to the frozen product, shoppers could buy in any supermarket a “packaged pizza-pie mix containing the flour mixture, yeast and the pizza sauce with cheese either in it or in another envelope.”27 In 1958, Fleischmann’s Yeast hired “Mrs. America” to advertise “Pizza Pronto,” a recipe for pizza from biscuit mix, from the pages of Good Housekeeping. 28 As Look wrote in a 1954 article, illustrated with pictures showing how to eat pizza correctly, “pizza pie has become an American citizen – here to stay.” Magazines made sure that the message was clear with headlines such as “Yankee Pizza” (Good Housekeeping), “The Americanized Pizza” (Look), and “Pizza Pies… the American Way” (Woman’s Home Companion).29 Arguably, pizza was a product intrinsically fit for mass consumption. However, other food biographies reveal that the process of selection and incorporation was a structured endeavor, whose politics of value was centered on the attenuation of difference through displacement and relocalization. American rationality and technology were bound to be the weapons that ensured a hegemonic position in conditions of intercultural exchange. A 1957 Look article noted that the annual American production of Italian-style cheese had surpassed ninety million pounds, five times the imports from Italy, and was of no inferior quality: “the cheese devotee has a wide choice – freshness and flavor guaranteed, thanks to vacuum-sealed transparent-plastic packaging.”30 American women were encouraged to make their own lasagna or veal parmigiana at home, as long as they used convenient canned and packaged products, mass-marketed by American industries. Middle-class American consumers were rapidly made acquainted with the idea of the convertibility of Italian Food into a product for mass consumption.

If anyone can find direct links to the articles listed above it could help with this thread, and would be appreciated. 

After some more searching I found an article in the Saturday Evening Post that is supposed to say this about Frank Mastro:

Frank Mastro, owner of a large restaurant supply shop on the Bowery, addressed this problem and enabled generations to bake pizza more easily.  He tinkered with ovens, converted them from coal to gas, and developed the prototypical gas deck oven.  The 1957 Saturday Evening Post article “Crazy About Pizza,” credited Mastro with “having done most to popularize pizza,” and described the “model pizzeria [he had] in his store to show prospective pizzeria owners how to run their operations” as integral to Mastro’s business strategy.  It was inexpensive to open a pizzeria and newcomers had a good chance for success — in the 1950s, ovens cost less than $200, the markup on a pie was nearly 300%, and to increase sales, Mastro himself financed many purchases.

I purchased that issue of the Saturday Evening Post last evening on ebay.  When I recieve it I will show what the article actually says.

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: waltertore on September 05, 2015, 06:28:35 PM
Norma:  I look forward to reading the article.  Madeline Mastro, Frank Mastro's daughter (89 years old) is such a treasure for the history of NY gas deck oven pizza and sets the record straight on how it started and evolved.  She began working with her father when she was 9 years old and  remembers most everything from the 30's-60's about it including bake temp (550).  That was the norm she said and her father outfittec every pizzeria that opened in the NYC/NJ area in the early days of pizzerias and even supplied my aunts husbands family bakery in Harrison NJ with equipment. My ovens were her fathers last design for blodgett and she commented that this pie photo looks exactly like what they were turning out in the late 50's-60's.  I feel so lucky to have learned from old school teachers and to be born at ground zero in the 50's. I know NY deck oven pizza has mutated over the years but I prefer to stick to what I grew up tasting.  Walter
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on September 05, 2015, 10:48:24 PM
Walter,

I agree that Madeline is such a treasure in the history of NY gas deck oven pizzas and everything else she recalls.  I didn't know Frank Mastro outfitted Your aunts husbands family bakery in Harrison, NJ with equipment.  I know you make great NY deck oven pizzas.  :)

Madeline emailed me this evening and said the one photo I copied off of the web was Madeline's nephew Vincent Mastro eating the slice of pizza at the World's Fair.  This is that photo.

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on September 10, 2015, 01:54:57 PM
I received The Saturday Evening Post today.  The article, “Crazy About Pizza” is an interesting read.  It was, and is raining heavily in our area so I couldn't take photos of the article outside.  Hopefully anyone that is interested can look at the photos and read what is in the article.  In photos 14 and 15 it tells how Frank Mastro invented the first gas pizza oven.  I talked to Madeline after the Saturday Evening Post arrived.  Madeline said that article was published about a year after her father died.  Madeline never saw or read the article, but did hear about it.  I purchased another Saturday Evening Post for Madeline.

Madeline told me she just recalled that a pizzeria in Puerto Rico might still be called Pizza Plaza, or Mastro Pizza.  Madeline said that the person in Puerto Rico purchased equipment from her father years ago.  I am not sure if this is the pizzeria Madeline told me about but I did write a post to them to find out. 

https://www.facebook.com/Mastro-Pizza-Restaurant-Cocktail-Lounge-139195846145281/timeline/ 

Madeline told me a funny story about one time when they were shipping Frank Mastro Ovens to Puerto Rico and somehow the one oven fell into the water when loading it onto the ship.  They did recover the oven, and then her son Frank worked on it at their business.  Frank did get the oven running right again after replacing burners and other things.  Madeline then sold that oven for $350.00.  When Vincent came back to the shop from the World's Fair he wondered who had sold that oven for that amount of money.  Madeline said she sold the oven for less than the original price of about $600.00.  Vincent was not impressed that Madeline sold the oven for $350.00.

If anyone wants me to take better photos (when it isn't raining) let me know what they want to see/read.

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on September 10, 2015, 02:02:11 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on September 10, 2015, 02:07:55 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: CaptBob on September 10, 2015, 07:20:54 PM
That's fascinating Norma! Thank you so much for taking the time to post!
Title: Re: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on September 10, 2015, 08:55:11 PM
That's fascinating Norma! Thank you so much for taking the time to post!

CaptBob,

Your welcome!  When I talked to Madeline today she told me where a lot of articles were printed about her dad, but I am having a hard time finding them.  One place was called Mr. Executive, but I can't find anything about what that was.  Another place was Collier's magazine.  I also can't find what articles were in Collier's.  Madeline is a very interesting lady and knows so much about pizza years ago.  She told me today that one of their relatives invented many things for the Nautilus, and invented many things for the government.   Madeline and I am searching for Frank Mastro's obituary but we haven't been able to find it yet.  There is so much more information Walter and I found out from Madeline about pizza years ago.  I hope somehow we can keep it all together for an article how their family made contributions to the pizza world.  It is a problem keeping everything in the proper sequences.

Norma
Title: Re: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: waltertore on September 11, 2015, 05:28:58 PM
CaptBob,

Your welcome!  When I talked to Madeline today she told me where a lot of articles were printed about her dad, but I am having a hard time finding them.  One place was called Mr. Executive, but I can't find anything about what that was.  Another place was Collier's magazine.  I also can't find what articles were in Collier's.  Madeline is a very interesting lady and knows so much about pizza years ago.  She told me today that one of their relatives invented many things for the Nautilus, and invented many things for the government.   Madeline and I am searching for Frank Mastro's obituary but we haven't been able to find it yet.  There is so much more information Walter and I found out from Madeline about pizza years ago.  I hope somehow we can keep it all together for an article how their family made contributions to the pizza world.  It is a problem keeping everything in the proper sequences.

Norma

Norma is the research expert!  Madeline is like Norma says, is a wealth of information.  In my last recorded conversation with her (we have several hours by now I think) she mentioned her father dealt with Joan Crawford the actress after her husband died and she took over his business.  Also a huge pizza that served 4-6 people was a quarter and a pitcher of beer a quarter.  She said only 2 pies would fit in the oven at a time (same oven I have) so they must have been 24" pies.  They cut the pies in 12 slices and used those big round metal serving trays wait people carry food to your table on to serve it and they came with china plates.  This was the late 30's/early 40's(if I remember right) in NYC at her fathers place.  We are working on putting an article together to present to PMQ and when done there will be a recording of our conversations archived forever.  The editor did a great story on my program  so I have a direct line to him.  The hope is the article will spur a full book and or film documentary.  It will have to happen soon because Madeline is pushing 90.  Walter
Title: Re: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: Andrew Bellucci on October 30, 2015, 01:45:12 PM
Sorry, too tired to go in depth on this subject, just opened our third store.  Read this slowly and carefully:  THERE IS NO COAL BAN IN NEW YORK CITY. PERIOD. Doesn't mean you'll get approved for one, nothing is sure with the NYC Health Dept. and Building Dept. Grandfathered in is a JOKE.  Do you think the new Grimaldi's, now located in a #*%$ FORMER BANK  had a coal burning oven grandfathered in?  Do you think the various Anthony's Coal Oven Pizzerias magically found locations that had coal ovens built in a previous existence?

I know it's a myth. I helped perpetuate it when I reopened Lombardi's. The New York Times bought it hook line and sinker but then again Eric Asimov is not the brightest guy in the world, nor is he big on doing, you know, journalistic research. Come to think about hasn't the Times gotten caught for out and out made up stories? Yes they have. It's a #*%$ rag like most things that pass for "news".

This myth is the same as New York City water being essential. Nice marketing trick but a total falsehood.

And anthracite coal, which everyone uses, BURNS CLEANER THAN WOOD.  Anyone hear of a NY City ban on wood? Didn't think so.

The new Grimaldi's had their coal oven disapproved because their contractor is a first class scumbag who failed to include it on the architectural plans. They got caught and wound up paying $50,000 to get it approved.

I've got a ton more stories like that, but it's late and I'm not in the mood for a trip down memory lane tonight.
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on October 31, 2015, 01:38:54 PM
It is taking longer than expected to get an article/story ready about the Mastro family and how they greatly contributed to NY style pizzas, and the birth of the first gas deck ovens for NY style pizzas. More information is found each week.  Madeline's memory is still sharp as a tack and she has, and is going to provide many articles, photos and receipts.  Peter has graciously said he would keep all of the information in one place, so if something happens to Walter's computer or mine, he will still have the information, voice recordings and videos.  Scott Wiener also is keeping everything we send him in a folder.  When Scott has time he will look at everything we found so far and the videos.  Scott said by mid November he might have time to start looking at everything.

Amber, from the Library of Congress has found many interesting articles.  These are 2 of them.  I am guessing they were on microfilm. They are difficult to read, unless a magnifying glass is used. 

What prompted me to make this post was the one article called NY style pizzas “Big Sloppy Round Ones”.  I had to chuckle about that phrase for NY style pizzas because I never heard it before.  I wonder what would happen now if we called our NY style pizzas “Big Sloppy Round Ones”.  :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on January 21, 2016, 01:29:50 PM
Madeline and I talked this morning and she said she wanted to make the videos public that I did on her, so maybe someone might be interested enough to do an article or story about the Mastro family. Madeline is the only person that knows so much what happened when her father and brother were going about trying to invent deck ovens for NY style pizzas.

Some of the videos aren't the best and some are long, but I find it interesting what happened so long ago with NY style pizza and Madeline's whole family.

https://youtu.be/fKZPJhVGH4k

https://youtu.be/z9ESTo2v_rw

https://youtu.be/EHYDl4cZaLY

https://youtu.be/Z_gTZGhBhg8

https://youtu.be/Z6DvPilgJjA

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: waltertore on January 25, 2016, 12:17:49 PM
Here are my phone interviews with Madeline and Vincent Jr.  Hopefully a writer and or documentary film maker catches these and Norma collection of Mastro pizza history.  Walter


https://www.dropbox.com/s/tyd8owyyx0gw3py/madeline%204.mp3?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/fmfe1qne82o7tqo/madeline%208-4-14.mp3?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/w5sypo178ke4ajm/mafdeline%20interview%202%208-13-15.mp3?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/9ilfxxs1z55biwr/mafdeline%20interview%203%208-13-01.mp3?dl=0

 https://www.dropbox.com/s/4n5xahw51yai96w/9-19-15%20vincent%20mastro%20interview.mp3?dl=0
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on February 14, 2016, 09:56:30 PM
This post was written by Madeline Mastro Ferrentino on facebook today. 

Quote
Can't believe what the pizza industry has become after my father started it in l935 with his gas fired portable pizza oven that he designed and had manufactured by G.S. Blodgett in Vermont. He spent the remainder of his life until his death in 1957 promoting it and designing and have manufacturers produce the ancillary products needed to operate a pizzeria. My brother picked up the mantle and continued with it until his death in 1965. He demonstrated what one person can do with perseverance, dedication, and belief in a cause to follow it thru. The impetus was the depression when his customers struggled to keep their businesses alive and the necessity to keep his own livelihood going. He started a restaurant and supply business in 1925, at the beginning handling mostly china as a distributor for the Scammell's china company out of Trenton who manufactured the china for the Pennsylvania Railroad, the Waldorf Astoria, Horn and Hardart's and others. As his business and customers continued to grow his inventory expanded to all equipment needed to run restaurants, hotels and institutions. Then came the DEPRESSION. With jobs in short supply people hardly were able to put food on their own tables, much less go to a restaurant. Pizza at that time was made in the Italian bakeries after the morning hours in huge coal fired brick wall ovens but mothers and grandmothers made them for their children after school in their own kitchen gas ovens. Ingredients to make pizza at that time were inexpensive and my father felt it would be a good addition to an Italian restaurant or bar's menu. He theorized that pizzas could be made in gas ovens in restaurants as well. He experimented with his design first putting a gas line in a commercial coal deck oven, then going to a design to a full gas oven and after several further designs ending up with a model that could put out one pizza a minute by maneuvering the pizzas on the decks in a certain way. Pizza was instantly popular, because of price and taste. The first huge pizzas were sold for 25 cents and I remember people standing around the block waiting for pizza at Greenpoint Pizzeria one of the first places my father set up (and my mother and Dad helped to run) for takeout as well as waiting for seating. And so the industry started. What has brought me back to remembering all of this is Norma Knepp contacting me and her curiosity about all things "pizza" including the history of the industry in the U.S. She has opened up this whole new world of pizza as it is today which I had not realized was going on since my brother's death....pizza forums, competitions, days long shows, pizza tours etc that is world wide. I was amazed to find that my father and brother were no longer known as the major participants in the industry , but thrilled to know that what started as my father's desire to see people employed during the depression has made such an impact on so many lives as he believed it would. Norma is an amazing woman in her own right. I hope my Mom and Dad can see her from Heaven. From operating this one little stand in a Pennsylvania farm market to almost world wide recognition.

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: TXCraig1 on February 14, 2016, 10:01:29 PM
Norma is an amazing woman

 ^^^   ;D
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on May 01, 2016, 08:27:16 AM
Walter's email to PMQ Magazine was in the April issue.

Recently on facebook this is what Rick Hynum posted.

Quote
We'll run a feature story on the amazing Mastro family in our June-July issue! Thank you VERY much for your help, Walter, and for all the interview footage you sent. I have followed up with both Mrs. Ferrentino and Vincent. What a fascinating story. I feel like I can't do the story the full justice it deserves in a 2,000-word article, but I will do my best.

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: waltertore on August 01, 2016, 01:30:46 PM
Norma Knepp and I have been working on documenting the history of NY style pizza which was invented by Frank Mastro.  It came together when we  met his 90 year old daughter Madeline.  Through hours of taped phone interviews, videos, and literature, we presented this to PMQ Magazine and they ran the story in this months issue.  Here it is.  It is a fascinating story that has been long forgotten and our hope is someday a documentary will be done on it.  This article is great - thanks Rick Hyman the editor of PMQ but only touches the surface of all Frank and his son Vinnie Mastro did for pizza as we know it today.  I feel blessed to have gotten to know Madeline and we use her father's last and best oven design in our pizzeria.  It is a work of art and 50 years later still outperforms today's deck pizza ovens.   The only thing missing is giving Norma Credit on the article.  Walter 

http://digital.pmq.com/pmqmag/august_2016?sub_id=xPZ7vtC8kzU4&folio=40&pg=46#pg46
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: jsaras on August 01, 2016, 08:50:19 PM
That pizza dough recipe in the story is interesting; 72% hydration, 9% salt, 2.2% yeast (presumably fresh yeast), 2.5 hour rise time.   Unusual to say the least.
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: Pete-zza on August 01, 2016, 09:01:37 PM
That pizza dough recipe in the story is interesting; 72% hydration, 9% salt, 2.2% yeast (presumably fresh yeast), 2.5 hour rise time.   Unusual to say the least.
Jonas,

Maybe it was intended that the salt be one teaspoon rather than 1 ounce. One teaspoon would be about 1.8%. The 2.2% fresh yeast would be suitable for an emergency dough that is to be used after a few hours.

It also looks like a lot of sauce (one cup plus one ounce) was used for a 15" pizza, along with a full pound of mozzarella cheese.

Peter
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on August 05, 2016, 10:38:24 PM
If anyone wants to know a little more what Madeline knows, and what her family did, these are some things she told me today. 

Quote
It was my brother with his brother-in-law that introduced the frozen dough. I was in Missouri when my brother started the Pizza Plaza franchise, so I believe it was soon after my father died and soon after the Frank Mastro franchise in Puerto Rico which was in effect I think still in the late 1950's. I returned to the east coast in 1960 so I believe that the Pizza Plaza franchises started in 1958 or 1959 or so. The concept of the frozen dough was so that all of the pizzerias because they were individual franchises in all parts of the country and Puerto Rico would produce the same pizza product. My brother enlisted his brother-in-law, a food chemist, to develop the frozen dough. My father died in 1957. The Pizza Plaza franchises were very attractive. They had lovely country pine furniture with trestle tables and my brother had a company make the old style ceiling fans (first in the day) for the light fixtures. (I believe it was a company in the south that manufactured the furniture and fans for him).

Don't know anything about the white powder, only that my mother use to bring it over to the commissary and a few times my son, Frank did. It was not used in Puerto Rico, just know the concept came up because of the Frank Mastro franchise experimentation, finding out they needed a way to get the pizzas all to be similar in all locations.

I was in Missouri in1954 in Springfield. While the people in Kansas City and St. Louis were familiar with Pizza (My father had sold an oven I believe in each city) but those in Springfield were not. My father made pizza for our friends when he came to Springfield and my Georgia friend had never had never heard about it.

My father’s first ovens were sold in l936 in NYC and upstate NY and I think in Mass. in the late 30's.

By the 1940's many were sold,during the war, and after. In 1944 he stopped on his way back from a customer in Detroit at my college to see me before he went home and it was in the 1940's that he sold to Alaska. I lived in Missouri in the fifties and didn't come back east until 1960. My father started selling his oven in 1935, that's when I was nine and he first got the information from the Mass. utility company about the gas usage.

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on August 05, 2016, 11:06:38 PM
I didn't have time to see if any patents might be issued to Lino Linteris for the secret white powder that was put in the frozen dough.

Just by doing a search for Lino Linteris inventor he was issued many patents.

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=Lino+Linteris+inventor

This is a tribute to Lino.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIKmNrhQdj8 

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: The Dough Doctor on August 05, 2016, 11:53:51 PM
I can add a little to this too, it was indeed the U.S. service men who were stationed in Italy and upon returning home were looking for a job but work was mighty scarce post WWII so many of them turned to doing something that they learned while in the service, my dad and 3 uncles opened a garage (that's a story in itself) while others did indeed remember that great Italian food "pizza" but rather than going looking for it they got busy and made it as a living. this is why a lot of the early pizzerias (since 1945) were run by vets. The problem was that no one knew where to put pizza on the daily menu, was it for lunch, or dinner? Neither, it was considered as a snack food for a good number of years with the majority of pizzas being sold after 7:00 p.m. and until the dough ran out or midnight, which ever came first. In the 60,s the big pizza chains started to come into their own and pizza began to settle in as dinner fare. Then the wholesale pizza manufacturers jumped into the pool and the marketing of frozen pizzas was a big thing. The time during the late 70's and early 80's was known as the time of the "pizza wars" with all of the large wholesale manufacturers trying to out compete the competition, it got so bad that pizzas had to be labeled as being made with tomato product (sauce) and cheese product (cheese). They couldn't be called tomato or cheese because both were heavily extended with fiber materials to reduce the cost. Toppings were absolutely scarce too, people used to buy a pizza along with onion, peppers and sausage or pepperoni to build their own pizza on the store bought frozen pizza. This was referred to as "doctoring the pizza". I helped develop the first heavily topped frozen pizza that broke the mold and made way for the quality pendulum to swing the other way and open the door to high end pizzas much as we know today. The pizza industry is unlike other segments of the food industry in that the independents are the true leaders of innovation, and then the chains jump on the idea and lastly the wholesale manufacturers jump on it too making that type or style of pizza available to the masses.
How popular is pizza? Pizza became more popular in the U.S. than our sacred hamburger by the early 90's, it is so popular that it is jokingly referred to as the great American food and this might not be too far off the mark in that the most popular types of pizza sold in the U.S. today are the "loaded" pizzas, much unlike pizzas sold any other place. As pizza has continued to evolve and tastes continue to change there has been a steady move fresh, natural, organic and combined with the demand for thinner crusts thanks to the low carb craze of a few years ago we got a lot of thin crust pizzas with a lot of toppings, but now the new direction seems to be leading us to seek out something different in pizzas, we are seeing a growing trend towards basic or natural eating styles, people want to see their food made before them, they want it to be made in a rustic/old fashion way so pizza is now beginning to come full circle and returning to its roots where it is made in a coal or wood fired oven, fresh ingredients are used, flavor and aroma are becoming important quality attributes, and less topping ingredients are becoming the rule instead of the exception. This is just a very rough thumb nail sketch of how pizzas have evolved as a mainstream food in the United States.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on August 06, 2016, 07:34:00 AM
I can add a little to this too, it was indeed the U.S. service men who were stationed in Italy and upon returning home were looking for a job but work was mighty scarce post WWII so many of them turned to doing something that they learned while in the service, my dad and 3 uncles opened a garage (that's a story in itself) while others did indeed remember that great Italian food "pizza" but rather than going looking for it they got busy and made it as a living. this is why a lot of the early pizzerias (since 1945) were run by vets. The problem was that no one knew where to put pizza on the daily menu, was it for lunch, or dinner? Neither, it was considered as a snack food for a good number of years with the majority of pizzas being sold after 7:00 p.m. and until the dough ran out or midnight, which ever came first. In the 60,s the big pizza chains started to come into their own and pizza began to settle in as dinner fare. Then the wholesale pizza manufacturers jumped into the pool and the marketing of frozen pizzas was a big thing. The time during the late 70's and early 80's was known as the time of the "pizza wars" with all of the large wholesale manufacturers trying to out compete the competition, it got so bad that pizzas had to be labeled as being made with tomato product (sauce) and cheese product (cheese). They couldn't be called tomato or cheese because both were heavily extended with fiber materials to reduce the cost. Toppings were absolutely scarce too, people used to buy a pizza along with onion, peppers and sausage or pepperoni to build their own pizza on the store bought frozen pizza. This was referred to as "doctoring the pizza". I helped develop the first heavily topped frozen pizza that broke the mold and made way for the quality pendulum to swing the other way and open the door to high end pizzas much as we know today. The pizza industry is unlike other segments of the food industry in that the independents are the true leaders of innovation, and then the chains jump on the idea and lastly the wholesale manufacturers jump on it too making that type or style of pizza available to the masses.
How popular is pizza? Pizza became more popular in the U.S. than our sacred hamburger by the early 90's, it is so popular that it is jokingly referred to as the great American food and this might not be too far off the mark in that the most popular types of pizza sold in the U.S. today are the "loaded" pizzas, much unlike pizzas sold any other place. As pizza has continued to evolve and tastes continue to change there has been a steady move fresh, natural, organic and combined with the demand for thinner crusts thanks to the low carb craze of a few years ago we got a lot of thin crust pizzas with a lot of toppings, but now the new direction seems to be leading us to seek out something different in pizzas, we are seeing a growing trend towards basic or natural eating styles, people want to see their food made before them, they want it to be made in a rustic/old fashion way so pizza is now beginning to come full circle and returning to its roots where it is made in a coal or wood fired oven, fresh ingredients are used, flavor and aroma are becoming important quality attributes, and less topping ingredients are becoming the rule instead of the exception. This is just a very rough thumb nail sketch of how pizzas have evolved as a mainstream food in the United States.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Tom,

Thanks so much for your contributions to this thread!  Since your were in the pizza industry at AIB for so many years I bet you could tell quite a few stories about pizzas. 

I didn't know you helped to develop the first heavily topped pizzas.  Congratulations! :chef: :chef:

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on August 06, 2016, 08:02:38 AM
In this recent article it says that Joseph Bucci of Philadelphia received over 652 patents for making frozen pizza or tomato pie.  :o It also says that the Little Bo's Pizza was small enough for one person.

Quote
Joseph Bucci of Philadelphia received over 652 patents for making frozen pizza or tomato pie. One of the first small pizzas was the Little Bo’s Pizza. It was small enough for one person and made with cheese, tomatoes, olives, and spices, and buyers were advised to heat them up for eight minutes in the oven.

https://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2016/05/the-history-of-the-pizza.html 

If I could find more time I would try to search Joesph Bucci's patents to see what he did to make frozen pizzas.  Joseph must have known pretty much about making frozen pizzas.

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: HarryHaller73 on August 15, 2016, 02:36:09 PM
In this recent article it says that Joseph Bucci of Philadelphia received over 652 patents for making frozen pizza or tomato pie.  :o It also says that the Little Bo's Pizza was small enough for one person.

Joseph Bucci of Philadelphia received over 652 patents for making frozen pizza or tomato pie. One of the first small pizzas was the Little Bo’s Pizza. It was small enough for one person and made with cheese, tomatoes, olives, and spices, and buyers were advised to heat them up for eight minutes in the oven.

https://www.pastemagazine.com/articles/2016/05/the-history-of-the-pizza.html 

If I could find more time I would try to search Joesph Bucci's patents to see what he did to make frozen pizzas.  Joseph must have known pretty much about making frozen pizzas.

Norma

I went to highschool with the grandson of the original owner of Tree Tavern Pizza Cafe located in Paterson NJ.  Though there are debates as to what was the first frozen pizza (Totino's claims to be first major producer of frozen pizza but they began in 1962, Celestano made a frozen pizza in 1957), many people in the Tri-State agree that it is the original Tree Tavern frozen pizza which was first sold in 1955 in supermarkets.  They still sell to this day under Provision Foods.  Their frozen crust is very different from every other frozen pizza on the market, it is NJ bar style pie.  It sells as a premium frozen pizza at $7-8/box.


http://www.northjersey.com/story-archives/owners-of-tree-tavern-pizza-remember-to-keep-it-real-1.1253180

http://www.treetavernpizza.com/history.html

Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: waltertore on August 15, 2016, 06:45:51 PM
I went to highschool with the grandson of the original owner of Tree Tavern Pizza Cafe located in Paterson NJ.  Though there are debates as to what was the first frozen pizza (Totino's claims to be first major producer of frozen pizza but they began in 1962, Celestano made a frozen pizza in 1957), many people in the Tri-State agree that it is the original Tree Tavern frozen pizza which was first sold in 1955 in supermarkets.  They still sell to this day under Provision Foods.  Their frozen crust is very different from every other frozen pizza on the market, it is NJ bar style pie.  It sells as a premium frozen pizza at $7-8/box.


http://www.northjersey.com/story-archives/owners-of-tree-tavern-pizza-remember-to-keep-it-real-1.1253180

http://www.treetavernpizza.com/history.html

I remember the tree tavern frozen pizzas in the early 60's at the shop rite we shopped at.  Also remember the Celentano sicilian like frozen pies there as well.  Walter
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: HarryHaller73 on August 15, 2016, 09:23:57 PM
I remember the tree tavern frozen pizzas in the early 60's at the shop rite we shopped at.  Also remember the Celentano sicilian like frozen pies there as well.  Walter

hi waltertore, i posted this in another dough thread, but are you familiar with santillo's pizza in elizabeth, nj?

here is their menu.  http://www.santillopizza.com/

3 generations of pizzamakers, they have a 1940, 1948, 1957, 1959, 1960, 1964, 1967 pie true to their recipes of that time for those who are interested in evolution.

here are some videos:

the 1957:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpgP4uEjy3w

the 1967 pops:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlvnLwwFXII

the harpo 1948 and 1957.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixUJSkW2LpQ
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: waltertore on August 15, 2016, 10:39:48 PM
hi waltertore, i posted this in another dough thread, but are you familiar with santillo's pizza in elizabeth, nj?

here is their menu.  http://www.santillopizza.com/

3 generations of pizzamakers, they have a 1940, 1948, 1957, 1959, 1960, 1964, 1967 pie true to their recipes of that time for those who are interested in evolution.

here are some videos:

the 1957:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpgP4uEjy3w

the 1967 pops:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlvnLwwFXII

the harpo 1948 and 1957.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixUJSkW2LpQ


I wish I had checked them out.  I was at Kean College for a semester before giving up on NJ and wandering west.  Thanks for posting the videos.  Did you make the pies or are they from the shop?   Walter
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: HarryHaller73 on August 15, 2016, 10:45:09 PM

I wish I had checked them out.  I was at Kean College for a semester before giving up on NJ and wandering west.  Thanks for posting the videos.  Did you make the pies or are they from the shop?   Walter

me? no.  they're videos from santillo's on youtube.   i posted as an example of a pizzeria that has not been adulterated by media, al santillo jr. owns santillo's pizza and that's him in the videos.  i'm just an interested wannabe pizza historian.
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: HarryHaller73 on August 15, 2016, 10:47:08 PM
in all honesty, i'm working on a book.  possibly a feature film.  c'mon do we need more comic book films?  let's make a fictional narrative based on real life pizza.   trying to be objective. 
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: waltertore on August 16, 2016, 12:14:59 AM
in all honesty, i'm working on a book.  possibly a feature film.  c'mon do we need more comic book films?  let's make a fictional narrative based on real life pizza.   trying to be objective.

Harry:  I have wanted to have a documentary done on our fusion of pizza and people with disabilities.  It has been a 25 year dream that is continually unfolding in wonderful ways.  Walter
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on December 27, 2016, 06:19:16 AM
Pizza Show: New York

More of the history of Pizza in NYC.

https://munchies.vice.com/en/videos/pizza-show-new-york 

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on December 27, 2016, 09:48:55 PM
I asked John Arena these questions:

I wanted to ask you a question about when your family make pizzas in NYC and what you recall about them. I mean did they have flat and little rims, and was the taste of the crust not as good as NY pizzas they have today? The reason I am asking is Madeline has commented on Walter's photos and said they look like what Madeline's father taught people how to make. Walter's rim crusts are more puffy and there is a really good taste to his crusts. Madeline said that is how she remembers pizzas her dad use to help pizzerias make. I saw that photo of Vinnie Mastro and the really small electric pizza ovens that the Mastro family invented, and those rim crusts do look somewhat like Walter's. If what Madeline recalls is true, then how did NYC pizzas start to have the smaller rim crusts that are rather dense? Was that because of short time doughs and lack of refrigeration? I don't know if you can understand what I am trying to explain. I am just curious about what NY pizza looked like a long time ago, and what some of them still look like today.

This is what John answered:

Mastro taught to make the pizza with a pronounced edge Never flat. The edge should not be dense or compressed Mastro sold frozen dough but it was very good .Most places did quick ferment.  Dough was made in morning and left out all day. Remainder was saved for next day but refrigeration and space was limited.  Pizzas were cooked much darker and because of quick ferment they bubbled a lot. People loved the burnt bubbles and fought over the bubble slices!! Walters pies look great but are more modern . Lighter bake and very round. I think the modern dough is better.  More complex.  Keep in mind that the lighter bake also became popular because pizza by the slice started to dominate and typically those pies are undercooked so they don't dry out and can stand up to reheating.

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on December 28, 2016, 06:26:49 AM
To add to what I posted at Reply 197 https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14920.msg462339#msg462339  this is what John said the theory is about excessive bubbling.

The theory is that excessive bubbling comes from under developed dough because the gluten strands are still tight so Co2 gets trapped unevenly. People who use a dough docker could avoid having to degas dough if it were properly risen.

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on December 28, 2016, 12:49:32 PM
I sure remember those bubbles..even though my first pies were in NJ, not NYC. Also the crust flavor was something different than I've ever tasted since. I know I've told the story about going to dinner with my brother 4 or 5 years ago at a little pizza place in the town we grew up in. He'd been before, but it was my first time


 The Italian bar/restauarnt/pizzeria we cut our pizza teeth on back in the 60's, Primo's,   had been closed (actually, burned down) for decades..just a memory.  But when the pizza came to the table that night, he told me to try a slice first. One bite and I started laughing. Primo's, I said, naming our boyhood pizza shop. Yes, he said, Yes, exactly. This shop had purchased Primo's recipes many years before and still make them today. It was very cool.   Even now, I'm not quite sure what's different about these pies...and I must admit I haven't had any since I've become a pizza extremist...but I bet if Peter or Tom tasted it, they'd know right away. Wanna do a road trip, guys?  Lake Hiawatha, NJ is lovely in January  :-D
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on December 28, 2016, 02:38:16 PM
I sure remember those bubbles..even though my first pies were in NJ, not NYC. Also the crust flavor was something different than I've ever tasted since. I know I've told the story about going to dinner with my brother 4 or 5 years ago at a little pizza place in the town we grew up in. He'd been before, but it was my first time


 The Italian bar/restauarnt/pizzeria we cut our pizza teeth on back in the 60's, Primo's,   had been closed (actually, burned down) for decades..just a memory.  But when the pizza came to the table that night, he told me to try a slice first. One bite and I started laughing. Primo's, I said, naming our boyhood pizza shop. Yes, he said, Yes, exactly. This shop had purchased Primo's recipes many years before and still make them today. It was very cool.   Even now, I'm not quite sure what's different about these pies...and I must admit I haven't had any since I've become a pizza extremist...but I bet if Peter or Tom tasted it, they'd know right away. Wanna do a road trip, guys?  Lake Hiawatha, NJ is lovely in January  :-D

Bill,

Your Primo's Pizzeria sounds a lot like Zangari's in Lancaster used to be 25-30 years ago.  Zangari's pizza used to be the “King of pizza" in Lancaster.  A little more about that old school pizza, which is now Alley Kat.
https://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowUserReviews-g52970-d3826924-r188596898-Alley_Kat-Lancaster_Lancaster_County_Pennsylvania.html 

And https://www.tripadvisor.com/Restaurant_Review-g52970-d3826924-Reviews-Alley_Kat-Lancaster_Lancaster_County_Pennsylvania.html#photos;geo=52970&detail=3826924&ff=177248919&albumViewMode=hero&albumid=103&baseMediaId=177248919&thumbnailMinWidth=50&cnt=30&offset=-1&filter=2

A lady spoke to me the other week at market and told me Alley Kat still uses the original Zangari's recipe.  She said she is friends with the lady that makes all of the dough for Alley Kat.  That lady purchased the recipes from the Zangari's.  I might have to go and talk to her someday.  For some reason I never tried Zangari's pizza in Lancaster when they had many shops. 

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: HarryHaller73 on December 28, 2016, 04:13:40 PM
I asked John Arena these questions:

I wanted to ask you a question about when your family make pizzas in NYC and what you recall about them. I mean did they have flat and little rims, and was the taste of the crust not as good as NY pizzas they have today? The reason I am asking is Madeline has commented on Walter's photos and said they look like what Madeline's father taught people how to make. Walter's rim crusts are more puffy and there is a really good taste to his crusts. Madeline said that is how she remembers pizzas her dad use to help pizzerias make. I saw that photo of Vinnie Mastro and the really small electric pizza ovens that the Mastro family invented, and those rim crusts do look somewhat like Walter's. If what Madeline recalls is true, then how did NYC pizzas start to have the smaller rim crusts that are rather dense? Was that because of short time doughs and lack of refrigeration? I don't know if you can understand what I am trying to explain. I am just curious about what NY pizza looked like a long time ago, and what some of them still look like today.

This is what John answered:

Mastro taught to make the pizza with a pronounced edge Never flat. The edge should not be dense or compressed Mastro sold frozen dough but it was very good .Most places did quick ferment.  Dough was made in morning and left out all day. Remainder was saved for next day but refrigeration and space was limited.  Pizzas were cooked much darker and because of quick ferment they bubbled a lot. People loved the burnt bubbles and fought over the bubble slices!! Walters pies look great but are more modern . Lighter bake and very round. I think the modern dough is better.  More complex.  Keep in mind that the lighter bake also became popular because pizza by the slice started to dominate and typically those pies are undercooked so they don't dry out and can stand up to reheating.

Norma

I never met people fighting for bubbles.  Bubbles were frowned upon especially if they were large and in the middle of the pie.  A good pizzamaker knew how to slap out co2 gas in any condition dough.  He seems to know alot of tricks like undercooking them to keep pies from going bad while sitting on a counter for a long time, unsold.  Maybe he comes from that heritage.  He sure projects his own personal opinions well to generalize an entire industry.

Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on December 29, 2016, 10:51:13 AM
That's pretty cool, Norma...Too bad there are no Time Machines..yet,  LOL)   We could do a Primo's/Zangari crawl and see/taste what we're missing  :)


HH, never met anyone fighting for bubbles? Well, you never met and and my  brother, LOL. As I recall, those bubbles weren't  charred..just raised. Pretty sure there were no slices at Primo's, just whole pies. Though being 12 or so, I never sat at the bar, so not sure  if they served slices there.


Kinda need a Primo's slice right now! But if I can hold out for the rest of the day, the plan, weather cooperating, is a  Trenton (pronounced Treh-uhn) tomato pie at Papa's tonight.
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on December 29, 2016, 11:21:19 AM
That's pretty cool, Norma...Too bad there are no Time Machines..yet,  LOL)   We could do a Primo's/Zangari crawl and see/taste what we're missing  :)


HH, never met anyone fighting for bubbles? Well, you never met and and my  brother, LOL. As I recall, those bubbles weren't  charred..just raised. Pretty sure there were no slices at Primo's, just whole pies. Though being 12 or so, I never sat at the bar, so not sure  if they served slices there.


Kinda need a Primo's slice right now! But if I can hold out for the rest of the day, the plan, weather cooperating, is a  Trenton (pronounced Treh-uhn) tomato pie at Papa's tonight.

Bill,

Lol, I agree too bad there are no Time Machines yet.  I did go to Alley Kat/with Zangari's recipe a long while ago at Reply 9 https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9803.msg85411#msg85411   

And the deal they have at Alley Kat.

https://www.facebook.com/Alleykatbar/photos/a.375309269204961.83034.373855646016990/1152226258179921/?type=3&theater

Some of those little bubbles can be seen.   

Cool about you and your brother fighting for bubbles.  A lot of my customers like bubbles too.  For me they come if my doughs are too cold, or not fermented enough. 

Your Primo's sound great!  If you go to Papa's make sure they don't burn the bottom crust of your pizza, unless you like a really charred bottom crust.  I don't like a lot of charring on the bottom crust.  Trenton Bill and I should have sent that pizza back, but other customers didn't have that dark of a bottom crust.  My posts starts at Reply 19 about Papa's https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=25251.msg255118#msg255118   

Have fun if you go to Papa's tonight!  ;D

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on December 29, 2016, 10:32:23 PM
Thanks Norma.. We made it there and it was plenty busy. The vibe was very friendly and family-oriented...and the place was packed,


Great friendly server too.


The pizza? We had a half-sausage half plain. Sausage pretty good, nothing special. Same for cheese and sauce. The crust seemed to be same day and had a complete absence of flavor to me. The  crust  were nice and thin,   definitely not burned. All in all, okay, but won;'t be back. DeLo's tomato pies wins by a mile
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: invertedisdead on December 29, 2016, 11:29:20 PM
Pie looks good though, guess the old saying is true, you can't judge a pizza by its cover.
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on December 30, 2016, 09:07:51 AM
It does, really...but, alas. Even tried a reheat this morning..main flavor salt. Crust: none. A shame, because the portions are big, LOL


Of course, I was probably the only one there not loving the pie...Making our own  and working with the amazing pizza makers here sets a bar that very few places can even approach. Sure doesn't hurt their bottom line, though. A very homelike place...the main featured item on house salad was pickled beets...like going to grandma's  :)


Tell Granny I won't be back soon  :( >:D :-D
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on December 30, 2016, 09:17:18 AM
Thanks Norma.. We made it there and it was plenty busy. The vibe was very friendly and family-oriented...and the place was packed,


Great friendly server too.


The pizza? We had a half-sausage half plain. Sausage pretty good, nothing special. Same for cheese and sauce. The crust seemed to be same day and had a complete absence of flavor to me. The  crust  were nice and thin,   definitely not burned. All in all, okay, but won;'t be back. DeLo's tomato pies wins by a mile

Bill,

I had about the same experiences as you did at Papa's, except our pie had the kind of char we didn't like.  I was happy to go to the old Papa's, and Trenton Bill and I were expecting a better pizza.  Everyone was nice at Papa's.

Agree about De Lorenzo's, but Bill said the old De Lorenzo's was better. 


Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on December 30, 2016, 09:43:00 AM
Ah, wish I'd been to the old DeLo's...alas, all gone.
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on February 25, 2017, 08:18:49 AM
Three articles about pizza in NYC in the 1940's and 1950's.

http://mentalfloss.com/article/65534/americas-quick-rise-pizza-ignorant-pizza-obsessed 

http://waltspizza.com/blogs/americas-quick-rise-pizza-ignorant-pizza-obsessed

http://www.thinkinghousewife.com/wp/2015/06/the-mind-boggling-speed-of-revolutionary-change/

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on February 26, 2017, 06:55:54 AM
I was talking to Madeline Mastro Ferrentino through PM's on facebook yesterday.  I asked Madeline different questions that weren't asked before.  Some of the questions were about what kind of tomato sauce was used on NY pizzas, basil and what brand of cheese was used.

Madeline said she really should start writing a book about what she knows about NY pizza for the memory of her mother, dad and brother.  Madeline said I could share what she recalls.  I don't know of any other person that can recall all that Madeline does about NY pizza.  Since Madeline worked with her mother and dad since the beginning of NY pizza that sure would make her information a lot more valuable then what can be read somewhere else.  At least that is my opinion.

This is what Madeline said, but not without the questions and comments from me.

Basil was always cooked in the tomato sauce that they used. Tomato sauce was usually cooked ahead of time, a quick sauce, they didn't use tomato sauce out of a can. The cheese pizza topping was tomato sauce , a drizzle of olive oil, mozzarella cheese, dash of Romano cheese and oregano. When it came out of the oven, it was dressed with another drizzle of olive oil, before serving. Usually there was more Romano cheese at the table for anyone who wanted more. In the early fifties when I visited Brooklyn and went to my cousin's restaurant, he said they didn't dress it with olive oil any more because the mozzarella had more fat content in it. Never clarified this with my dad.

You know we supplied the ingredients for the dough as well. I don't remember the supplier but Grande does not ring a bell with me at all.

The mob was not involved with pizza at all in the 30's or forties. In the thirties they had a protection racket going on where they would target individual businesses to pay them for "protection" so that nothing bad would happen to their businesses. Thomas Dewey was the one who cleared up that racket as our district attorney. My uncle who owned an ice and coal business was one of their targets. I really don't think the mob was involved in pizza until the late fifties and early 1960's, when it became apparent that the industry was flourishing.

N.Y. style pizza was christened "Neapolitan" because it is a thin crust pizza. Sicilian was thicker. Traditional Neapolitans were supposed to have made the thin crust pie.

Polly-o certainly proceeded Grande. It was a brand I remember from way back when. New York pizza started before Chicago pizza. It took a while before they had the popularity of pizza in NY.  During WWII, my dad went to Detroit and Chicago to speak to customers. By then, NYC had many Italian restaurants that made pizza with our ovens. Bari had the connection to the mobs and didn't come until the 1950's when I was in Missouri and they moved into the center of our stores.

It has to be realized that pizza as shop that only baked pizza and had an oven and the equipment didn't come about until the early fifties. Before then, pizza always accompanied a restaurant and bar. Originally it was something that had to be added to a menu.  In the beginning my Dad had success with his bar trade because they took the chance to add it to their menu, because people were still going to bars during the depression but couldn't afford restaurants.

I really should start writing about what I know about pizza. So all this misinformation that's out there does not become part of history. People were able to go to bars with a pail to buy beer, as they did with milk. In the beginning pizza was considered to be an accompaniment to beer. My dad got so many Italian restaurants to get a beer and wine license, all as part of his service.

My mother and dad were such good people, if there is a heaven they deserve to be there. God gave them the strength to sacrifice so much of their young lives to help people while helping themselves. They were both well rounded and creative people and had so many other interests that they would have loved to pursue; fortunately they took great joy in their customers success and their fellow business associates.

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on February 26, 2017, 07:04:42 AM
I have been trying to figure out why there isn't a lot of information about pizza back when the deck ovens were first invented for NY pizzas.  It seems the NY Times and other news mentions weren't plentiful since NY pizzas were not going strong back in the 40's.  These are some more articles found.  Wish older photos of NY pizza could be found somewhere, but not much of any luck so far in finding photos of NY pizza back in the 1940's. 

https://www.6sqft.com/71-years-ago-the-new-york-times-introduced-pizza-to-the-city/

https://sites.google.com/site/newyorkcityapril1946/in-progress/restaurants/italian-restaurants/pizza 

This next article referenced by Scott W. defines pepperoni as hot peppers.  A “red hot” combination.   >:D

http://alanatlunch.blogspot.com/2015/04/how-old-is-that-pizza.html

http://blog.scottspizzatours.com/post/18130417527/first-reference-to-pizza-as-pie

In this article I find the reference to “muscat” tomato interesting.

http://enrychan.tumblr.com/post/117623313881/kateoplis-1944-the-nytimes-discovers-pizza

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: invertedisdead on February 26, 2017, 09:01:34 AM
Very interesting fuel for the fire, Norma!
Thank you.
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: waltertore on February 26, 2017, 11:26:30 AM
Thanks Norma for sharing this info.  Madeline is a national pizza treasure.  She confirms what my mother (90 years old  born in Italy and raised in NJ as a child) remembers of pizza.  The Mastro's are the root of NY pizza and if people refuse to listen to her it is just the sign of the times as people now create lies and call them "alternative"  facts........  I was lucky to learn from my mothers  family and some old guys that were around in the early days of NY style pizza and my pies are based on that and my own twist of sorts.  The new NY pizzas are not the pies I grew up with.  I feel honored that Madeline and my mother both say my pies remind them of the ones they grew up with in the early days of pizza.  We have a dozen or so over 70 customers from NY/NJ and they also say my pies are like the ones they grew up on.   One of our customers is a family who owned a NY Italian restaurant decades ago and they loved Madeline's story in PMQ that I shared with them. The mother who is in her 90's said pizza today in NYC is not what is was and they are contacting the UCLA film school to see if they will do a documentary on the Mastro story.  They come in once a week and hug Judy and I saying we are doing pizza like they remember growing up with.   They came in with an attitude that if we didn't deliver they would definitely let us know.  Now they share their old Italian recipes that came to America with them and the mother is making  her Zeppole's for us on their next visit.  The daughter who is in her 70's even offered to help us if we needed it.  All our old transplant NY/NJ customers are like this.  They are proud of the pizza they grew up with and are hurt to see what it has degenerated to.  I respect this and love seeing them come in with an angry attitude of "this will probably be another crap pizza place using the NY name to draw innocent people in who know no better" and seeing them smile and return each week for pies that remind them of their youth.

I give up arguing on this "definitive NY pizza" farce as most citing what is the gospel were not even born or have no direct family connections to the early days.   Norma and I have documented the originators and greatest NY pizza family and that is a fact.  The internet lets anyone declare themselves an expert and I am not going to argue anymore.   We have done our job of documenting the Mastro's for generations to come. People dig our pizza and it reminds me of the best pies I grew up with and that is all that really matters to me.  Walter
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: invertedisdead on February 26, 2017, 11:37:18 AM
Thanks Norma for sharing this info.  Madeline is a national pizza treasure.  She confirms what my mother (90 years old  born in Italy and raised in NJ as a child) remembers of pizza.  I was lucky to learn from  her family and some old guys that were around in the early days of NY style pizza and my pies are based on that.  The new NY pizzas are not the pies I grew up with.  I feel honored that Madeline and my mother both say my pies remind them of the ones they grew up with in the early days of pizza.  We have a dozen or so over 70 customers from NY/NJ and they also say my pies are like the ones they grew up on.   One of our customers is a family who owned a NY Italian restaurant decades ago and they loved Madeline's story in PMQ that I shared with them. The mother who is in her 90's said pizza today in NYC is not what is was and they are contacting the UCLA film school to see if they will do a documentary on the Mastro story.  They come in once a week and hug Judy and I saying we are doing pizza like they remember growing up with.   I give up arguing on this "definitive NY pizza" farce as most citing what is the gospel were not even born or have no direct family connections to the early days.   Norma and I have documented the originators and greatest NY pizza family and that is a fact.  The internet lets anyone declare themselves an expert and I am not going to argue anymore.   We have done our job of documenting the Mastro's for generations to come. People dig our pizza and it reminds me of the best pies I grew up with and that is all that really matters for us.  Walter

Hi Walter,
Could you expand on what is missing or has changed in NY pizza today?
I read this comment often about NY pizza being different now, so I'm curious what happened? It seems like some stuff is still consistent with past decades - same day straight dough baked in a deck oven, low moisture mozzarella (Grande) etc.

Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: waltertore on February 26, 2017, 11:58:39 AM
Hi Walter,
Could you expand on what is missing or has changed in NY pizza today?
I read this comment often about NY pizza being different now, so I'm curious what happened? It seems like some stuff is still consistent with past decades - same day straight dough baked in a deck oven, low moisture mozzarella (Grande) etc.

I have been gone from the NY/NJ scene for near 37 years.  When I go home to visit I see less and less of the old shops still there and the ones that are still open often no longer have family running them- the day to day pie making proccess. They are hiring off the street and these people become the teachers.  They don't have the background that once was the norm for pies back home and things get dumbed down more and more.  Many shops are purchased and opened by people that don't even know  how to make pizza.  I left in the 70's and even then pizza was declining IMO due to my generation going to college via our immigrant parents hard work and we didn't want to work in the shops.  The shops I grew up in were family run with skilled people making the pies.  The old taught the young as was the norm for generations.  Now that is just about dead. Sadly we are one of the last of the true mom/pop shops where we are on site all open hours and make everything and have a background in old school pizza. 

I wish there were dozens of pizzerias I could eat at within a short drive like I remember as a kid but that is not here today.  We are getting a lot of positive press on our pies for only being open a year. In my youth we would not have had a word written on us as it would just be another pizzeria opening.  We just had a west coast food critic cite us as the best NY pie in Reno and possibly on the west coast.  That is sad to me in that there is such thin pickings that a brand new place can garner such attention.The balance of a pizza is something one can not learn on a video.  One has to be immersed in the culture.  I was probably conceived on a Sinatra record playing and a pizza  :-D.  The taste from the balance of ingredients and using the ones that work together/mixing them in right amounts is what is being lost IMO. This and how one raises the dough to peak fermentation/develops it to balance with the ingredients are fine tuned nuances that really make a big difference in the final product that is lacking today in so many places. Look at all the attention Norma has gotten.  She puts that extra mojo on her pies and that kicks them into greatness.   I say -forget what others say/think.  Instead make the pizza that you love to eat.   Let your taste buds guide you.  Forget what is written or held as sacred by people today that have no direct link to the origins of pizza.  Let the generations of pizza flow through your soul and that will always guide your pizza be the best pizza.  I know this is way out stuff but the souls are out there and they will work through you.  That is how pizza was taught in my experience. Walter
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on February 26, 2017, 12:46:02 PM
Thanks Norma for sharing this info.  Madeline is a national pizza treasure.  She confirms what my mother (90 years old  born in Italy and raised in NJ as a child) remembers of pizza.  The Mastro's are the root of NY pizza and if people refuse to listen to her it is just the sign of the times as people now create lies and call them "alternative"  facts........  I was lucky to learn from my mothers  family and some old guys that were around in the early days of NY style pizza and my pies are based on that and my own twist of sorts.  The new NY pizzas are not the pies I grew up with.  I feel honored that Madeline and my mother both say my pies remind them of the ones they grew up with in the early days of pizza.  We have a dozen or so over 70 customers from NY/NJ and they also say my pies are like the ones they grew up on.   One of our customers is a family who owned a NY Italian restaurant decades ago and they loved Madeline's story in PMQ that I shared with them. The mother who is in her 90's said pizza today in NYC is not what is was and they are contacting the UCLA film school to see if they will do a documentary on the Mastro story.  They come in once a week and hug Judy and I saying we are doing pizza like they remember growing up with.   They came in with an attitude that if we didn't deliver they would definitely let us know.  Now they share their old Italian recipes that came to America with them and the mother is making  her Zeppole's for us on their next visit.  The daughter who is in her 70's even offered to help us if we needed it.  All our old transplant NY/NJ customers are like this.  They are proud of the pizza they grew up with and are hurt to see what it has degenerated to.  I respect this and love seeing them come in with an angry attitude of "this will probably be another crap pizza place using the NY name to draw innocent people in who know no better" and seeing them smile and return each week for pies that remind them of their youth.

I give up arguing on this "definitive NY pizza" farce as most citing what is the gospel were not even born or have no direct family connections to the early days.   Norma and I have documented the originators and greatest NY pizza family and that is a fact.  The internet lets anyone declare themselves an expert and I am not going to argue anymore.   We have done our job of documenting the Mastro's for generations to come. People dig our pizza and it reminds me of the best pies I grew up with and that is all that really matters to me.  Walter

Walter,

I agree with what you have posted.  I know Madeline has said your pies remind her of pies that were made years ago.  Hopefully someone will do a documentary on the Mastro story or Madeline will write a book.  Madeline told me more today.

This is what she said:

Norma: This restaurant had to have been our customer because they used a box. My Dad was the one that finally got a manufacturer to make the boxes for him. This is the year I went to college and in NYC Prior to that we sold the white Kraft paper and string for takeout. We had so many restaurants called Luigi's or Luigino's .

If it was a coal fired oven, probably was a very large place and had the built in wall ovens used in bakeries. Would have been great to see, but would have had to get the pizza boxes from us, we were the only place selling them at that time. We had the room to inventory them and deliver. They were manufactured for us, though we were selling them to other dealers as well. could have gotten them for a smaller dealer. The last sentence should have read "could have gotten them from a smaller dealer" that we sold to uptown.

The pizza boxes were white, as was the white kraft paper. It took so much longer for them to wrap the pizza and tie it with string, also cheese would stick to the paper. It was amazing to see how fast some of the people got to wrap the pizza in paper. You have to remember there use to be a lot of people waiting on line to get pizza in the early times, use to hold up the rest of the business and people would get impatient.

All of the pizza equipment was initiated by my dad. He used to have a lot of fabrication done by people on the Bowery. Bari was one who used to fabricate his cheese graters. I have a contract (I hope, still) in which Bari was given the dies to make the grater and they were to be returned to us. My father didn't have an easy time getting things manufactured for us by the manufacturing companies. I think he finally got the pizza boxes made for us by the intervention of the Schrier paper company that was a huge distributor of all paper products but I don't remember the manufacturer.


Norma


Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on April 22, 2017, 11:27:21 PM
I was trying to search to when Ira Nevin might have invented the first deck oven for pizzas.  At the Baker's Pride website it says Bakers Pride was founded in New York in the mid 1940's, and then initiated the inventing of the modern production pizza oven.  I will copy and paste what else was said.

Prior to our invention of a factory built, gas-fired ceramic deck transportable pizza oven, pizza was produced in massive, coal-fired, hand built brick ovens by a small number of culinary artists catering to a limited number of pizza connoisseurs.

http://www.bakerspride.com/about.asp 

Seems like that would have been after Frank Mastro invented the first gas deck oven for pizzas.

Another article about when Ira Nevin invented the first deck oven.

Ah, but something was missing. Ex-GIs who had served in Italy told their former brothers-in-arms of what would in time be called the “greatest generation” about the gastronomic delights of a baked pie with a shallow bread-like crust covered with seasoned tomato sauce, cheese, and a variety of other toppings they’d sampled in Italy.
One of the mustered-out soldiers, Ira Nevin, returned to his home in New Rochelle, a New York City suburb, after serving in Naples and experiencing the culinary joys of Italian pizza. Nevin was unique in that his father owned and operated a business — Bakers Pride — which built and repaired brick ovens. Nevin, who went to college under the G.I. Bill, writing his thesis in engineering school on oven construction, was approached one day by an Italian-American baker whose gas appliance couldn’t attain the higher temperatures needed for pizza. Whereupon Nevin — who fully appreciated pizza’s potential in America as word spread, fueled by former servicemen — built the first gas-fired, high-temperature ceramic-deck pizza oven, allowing prospective pizzeria owners to make their tomato pies quickly, cheaply and efficiently.
In the 1950s, independently owned pizza stores spread like melted cheese across the United States. The owners — mostly Italians or Greeks — usually made their own mozzarella cheese or else bought it locally. Tomato sauce came from fresh tomatoes or maybe canned tomatoes during winter seasons. Dough was made in-house, along with pizza toppings.
These early pizzas were thin-crusted, casalinga, or home style. Pizza represented cheap, honest homemade food that brought people together. Some observers called pizza the “ultimate populist, minimalist food,” because of its broad appeal across ethnic and socioeconomic groups.


http://www.itemonline.com/opinion/orkand-a-slice-of-history-pizza-in-america/article_177fdbdb-aa47-508b-bac4-e0fe16c4cee7.html
 
Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: jkb on April 23, 2017, 04:53:16 AM
Pie looks good though, guess the old saying is true, you can't judge a pizza by its cover.



The balance of a pizza is something one can not learn on a video.  One has to be immersed in the culture.


These are things people don't get about NY pies. It's the balance.  The family run places got it.
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on June 10, 2017, 08:40:24 PM
Scott Wiener sent me this photo March 2nd of this year.  I just got around to asking Scott if I could post the photo.  Scott said he found it in 1940 tax photos.  It least it shows that the Mastro's were in business at that time and there is writing that says something about Pizzeria.

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: Pete-zza on September 29, 2017, 08:07:14 PM
One of the evolutions of the NY style involved how the rims of the NY style pizza changed over time and the characteristics of those rims. For example, rims were variously round and somewhat bulbous and maybe even wide but they were also flat and thin and almost nonexistent. For those who are interested in this aspect of the evolution of the NY style pizza, there is a good discussion (and debate) in the thread at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=49676.0.

Peter
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on October 01, 2017, 06:00:25 AM
Found a link that has photos of pizzerias in the past in NYC.  At least the photo from Frank Mastro's model pizzeria is dated 1953.  Still not sure if that is right though.

https://ny.eater.com/2012/5/9/6588599/old-photos-of-new-york-city-pizzerias

Wishfully thinking it would be nice to be able to go into all of those pizzerias to see what the pizzas looked and tasted like.

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: waltertore on October 01, 2017, 12:36:49 PM
Great pictures!   This one reminds me of the pizzerias I remember with the fold up newsstand in front. 
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: jvp123 on October 01, 2017, 12:41:11 PM
Great pictures!   This one reminds me of the pizzerias I remember with the fold up newsstand in front.

I love that picture.  Beautiful vibe.
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on October 01, 2017, 08:12:29 PM
 ^^^  That's so great...like going into a time machine!
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: mitchjg on October 01, 2017, 08:20:37 PM
^^^  That's so great...like going into a time machine!

Here is a time machine thing: When I was in Jr. High, my mom would give me 50 cents for lunch at the Pizza Den in Forest Hills.  That got me 2 slices of Sicilian (15 cents each), a soda (10 cents) and an Italian ices (10 cents)!  That place in the picture looks expensive!!

 :-D
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on October 01, 2017, 09:17:23 PM
Here is a time machine thing: When I was in Jr. High, my mom would give me 50 cents for lunch at the Pizza Den in Forest Hills.  That got me 2 slices of Sicilian (15 cents each), a soda (10 cents) and an Italian ices (10 cents)!  That place in the picture looks expensive!!

 :-D

Mitch,

They are great time machine memories.  Wow, those prices sure were cheap!   :o

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: mitchjg on October 01, 2017, 09:26:42 PM
Mitch,

They are great time machine memories.  Wow, those prices sure were cheap!   :o

Norma

I think so!  I just went to this website: https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=0.10&year1=196601&year2=201708 where you can calculate cumulative inflation.  $0.15 in 1966 is about $1.16 today.  I am sure NY pizza is way over $1.16 a slice (except for those $1 slice joints I guess) so pizza inflation is excessive relative to the economy.  I think we should demand a refund!
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on October 02, 2017, 09:27:13 AM
I think so!  I just went to this website: https://data.bls.gov/cgi-bin/cpicalc.pl?cost1=0.10&year1=196601&year2=201708 where you can calculate cumulative inflation.  $0.15 in 1966 is about $1.16 today.  I am sure NY pizza is way over $1.16 a slice (except for those $1 slice joints I guess) so pizza inflation is excessive relative to the economy.  I think we should demand a refund!

Mitch,

Thanks for figuring that out.  Maybe a refund.   :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on October 02, 2017, 09:30:15 AM
Walter posted this video over at the NY crust characteristics thread.  There were pizzas with puffy crusts back in the 50's.

Thanks Walter!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWioIRjYK5E

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on October 12, 2017, 07:07:55 AM

Not sure if I posted any of this article before.  Was browsing though some things on the computer and found the article (part of the article in photos). 

The article date October 3, 1957 credits Frank Mastro for inventing the first gas deck oven for pizzas and tells a lot more.  I don't have a link to the article but guess it still could be found if someone would start a 7-Day Free Trial at. 

https://www.newspapers.com/search/#lnd=1&ymd=1957-10-03&t=4465&p_place=CT

https://www.newspapers.com/image/236589769/?terms=

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: waltertore on October 13, 2017, 10:27:05 AM
That is a very educational article.  Thanks Norma.  It adds another artifact to the story of pizza.  Walter
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on October 19, 2017, 07:59:22 AM
Had the pleasure of meeting Chef Santo Bruno at the Pizza and Pasta Northeast Event in Atlantic City yesterday.

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on October 19, 2017, 08:02:11 AM
Mr. Bruno told me that Frank Mastro was the first person to invent the gas deck oven to make NY style pizzas.  Mr. Bruno has sold gas deck ovens from Baker's Pride, Garland, Marsal, Bari and Blodgett.  Mr Bruno said he would like to talk to Madeline to do an article about the Mastro's.  I told Mr. Bruno that I tried to contact Madeline in the last month but she didn't respond.  It would be a shame if one of the last links to how the Mastro's invented the first gas deck oven wouldn't get another article by Mr Bruno.  Mr. Bruno worked side by side with Madeline brother-in-law to get so many of the gas deck ovens and later versions by Blodgett sold for NY style pizzas.  Although Mr. Bruno works for Marsal now he recalls so much just like Madeline.

http://www.pmq.com/March-2015/Brunos-Way-Chef-Santo-Bruno-tells-you-what-he-thinks-about-pretty-much-everything/ 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQe_2rdNJ9E


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6z8D9VWeH5s 

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: vangelo on February 24, 2018, 02:50:56 PM
Hi,

I'm Vangelo / Vinnie Mastro and am quoted in the post below.  I am also the 5 yr old boy eating pizza at the Mastro Pizza Pavilion in the 64 NY Worlds Fair.   

RE:  The secret white powder....  Unfortunately, I do not know what it is but I do know how it came to be.  My father (Vincent S. Mastro), asked my uncle on my mother's side (Lino Linteris) to develop the powder for him.  It just so happened that my uncle was a very successful food scientist (he is responsible for many common grocery store products such as Mrs Buttersworth's Syrup and Promise Margarine to name a few).  I do not know how long it took my uncle Lino to develop the powder but eventually he did.  My father was planning on franchising Pizza and was going to distribute all of the ingredients and supplies including dough.  That meant he had to figure out how to freeze dough without impacting quality.  A year or so before my Uncle Lino passed away I spoke to him about the powder.  He was in his mid-nineties at the time and said, ohhh, I remember doing that for your dad.  He was such a good man.  He then proceeded to tell me all sorts of stories but had no interest in remembering what the powder was. 


In the link that was provided yesterday vangelo (Vinnie) posted this. 

My cousin worked the summers of '63 and '64 in the NY distribution facility making tons of Pizza dough balls that were frozen and sent to the Pizza Plaza stores. He worked there with one of my dad's business partner's, (Louie Lamonica?). He remembers that my Grandmother would bring in Baggies of some "secret ingredient" they would add to each 100-pound batch of dough.

Since Lamonica's has been making frozen pizza dough from 1962 it makes me wonder if the dough used at the World's Fair was Lamonica's dough with an some kind of secret ingredient added. 

Lamonica's website.

http://www.lamonicaspizzadough.com/www.lamonicaspizzadough.com/Home.html

If anyone is interested, these are some photos of pizzas and cups that were copied off the worldsfaircommunity thread, and a few photos of the Mastro Pizzeria at the World's Fair.  The last photos were of Frank Masto's model pizzeria in 1953. 

Norma

Edit:  I forgot to post the one photo.
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: HarryHaller73 on March 31, 2018, 12:07:08 AM
The Honeymooners was filmed in midtown NYC in the mid 50's.  Rare footage of a NY pizza of the era.  I would say, it hasn't changed much besides sauce/cheese ratios.

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iD8Pb3NMV-U
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on March 31, 2018, 08:58:19 AM
What a great clip! So the observation I'd that now it's more cheese than sauce, is that right? So today's pizzas would be even more banned by Alice!
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: quietdesperation on March 31, 2018, 09:42:51 AM
Harry, I posted that a while ago but this is a better place for it. My kids have never seen the clip but they know when they ask me to share I’m going to ask “do you want an itsy bitsy piece or teensy weensy piece?” 😊
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: jkb on March 31, 2018, 09:58:14 AM
Alice is a sweetie.
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: invertedisdead on March 31, 2018, 11:00:29 AM
What a great clip! So the observation I'd that now it's more cheese than sauce, is that right? So today's pizzas would be even more banned by Alice!

If that's fresh mozz on that pie I actually think there could be quite a lot on there for the blobs to be so white. I mean, the clip is grainy, but considering a deck oven bake time and how fresh mozz tends to melt into the sauce, makes me wonder!
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: invertedisdead on April 09, 2018, 11:37:28 PM
"Allied Metal was established in 1945 by Michael Plotkin as a manufacturer of lighting fixtures. Coincident with the establishment of the company, a Sicilian immigrant named Andrew Virga developed what is generally regarded to be the first pizza crust in the United States. He brought this new-fangled dough product to his engineer friend Ira Nevins who was running one of the bomber engine plants for the U.S. Government to inquire if Nevins could produce an oven to bake the dough properly. In his basement, Nevins created the first Baker's Pride oven. Virga and Nevins then brought the dough and the oven to Plotkin to determine if he could produce a baking tray to be used in conjunction with Nevins' space age new oven. Plotkin met the challenge by developing the first pizza trays in the U.S. Plotkin, Virga and Nevins are credited with developing the first pizza concept in the U.S. and each of them subsequently focused their efforts on the development of their respective areas of expertise. Virga built one of the leading pizza dough manufactures, Nevins built the Bakers Pride Oven Company and Plotkin changed the focus of the young Allied Metal to the manufacture of pizza smallwares.

Plotkin quickly began to manufacture items for the developing pizza industry. Such items included pizza serving trays, pizza baking pans and screens, pizza cutters and numerous serving utensils. These products were originally distributed in the New York area where pizza was quick to take hold. As the concept was popularized throughout the U.S., Allied Metal's distribution became national in scope. Plotkin realized that he needed lo expand Allied's product line in order lo continue to grow and, as a result, he expanded into the manufacture of Asian cookware. Plotkin built the tooling for woks, steamers and lobster pans and sold these items initially throughout New York's Chinatown and ultimately lo customers throughout the U.S. Plotkin's daughter, Arlene Saunders, joined the company in 1970 and focused her efforts on building a cohesive and organized team of sales representatives throughout the U.S. She quickly became involved in marketing and new product development and, upon Plotkin's passing in 1984, inherited Allied Metal."

https://www.alliedpans.com/about/
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: invertedisdead on April 11, 2018, 04:34:07 PM
In the link that was provided yesterday vangelo (Vinnie) posted this. 

My cousin worked the summers of '63 and '64 in the NY distribution facility making tons of Pizza dough balls that were frozen and sent to the Pizza Plaza stores. He worked there with one of my dad's business partner's, (Louie Lamonica?). He remembers that my Grandmother would bring in Baggies of some "secret ingredient" they would add to each 100-pound batch of dough.

Since Lamonica's has been making frozen pizza dough from 1962 it makes me wonder if the dough used at the World's Fair was Lamonica's dough with an some kind of secret ingredient added. 

Lamonica's website.

http://www.lamonicaspizzadough.com/www.lamonicaspizzadough.com/Home.html

If anyone is interested, these are some photos of pizzas and cups that were copied off the worldsfaircommunity thread, and a few photos of the Mastro Pizzeria at the World's Fair.  The last photos were of Frank Masto's model pizzeria in 1953. 

Norma

Edit:  I forgot to post the one photo.

I sent this video clip to John Arena (of the Mastro-Arena connection)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6M27U9TJJos (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6M27U9TJJos)

To which he replied, "Very interesting video, clearly not typical pizza maker, starts pie with a rolling pin. Spotless chefs outfit is just for filming as is the hat."

The photo below is Chef Nunziato working out of Frank Mastro's model pizzeria in Manhattan.

Also note this slice from the 1964-65 World's Fair, looks like a rolling pin was used.
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on April 12, 2018, 06:36:13 AM
In my opinion there could still be debates about who invented the first gas deck oven for pizzas.

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/401040/OVENMAKER-GETS-ANOTHER-PIECE-OF-THE-PIZZA-PIE.html

And:

https://www.npr.org/2011/03/24/134628158/how-italian-food-became-a-global-sensation


If Ira Nevin didn't really start building gas deck ovens till the end of the war it seems that Frank Mastro was ahead of him.

A postwar boon to pizza makers occurred when GI Ira Nevin returned from Italy to New Rochelle, New York, and combined his family's expertise in oven re­pair with his newfound love of the pizzas he had had in Naples to came up with the Baker's Pride gas-fired ceramic deck pizza oven. Prior to that, pizzas were baked in hand-built, brick-lined ovens fired by coal.
In the eastern cities, pizzas were still considered simple, cheap, filling fare, es­pecially to be enjoyed on a Friday night, when Catholics were still forbidden to eat meat, with a beer or bottle of cheap red wine. By the 1950s, take-out made sales soar, so that special cardboard boxes were created for the purpose, usually imprinted with a roly-poly, mustachioed Italian pizzaiolo tweaking his cheek and saying "Hot and Fresh!" or "You've Tried All the Rest, Now Try the Best!"
Largely, though, most Americans at that time had never heard of pizza. "If someone suggests a 'pizza pie' after the theater, don't think it is going to be a wedge of apple," wrote New York Herald Tribune food columnist Clementine Paddleford in 1939. "It is going to be the surprise of your life,... a nice stunt to surprise the visiting relatives, who will be heading East soon for the World's Fair. They come to be surprised, and pizza, pronounced 'peet-za,' will do the job brown."


Oregano and Ira Nevin.
https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2015/05/09/405302961/gis-helped-bring-freedom-to-europe-and-a-taste-for-oregano-to-america

This compact pizza oven article isn't until 1955 but it says that the compact pizza oven designed for use by smaller operators is being offered at Frank Mastro Company, Inc. 240 Bowery, New York and it can go up to 700 degrees F.  The magnifying glass has to be used to see the article.

https://books.google.com/books?id=NyMEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA66&lpg=PA66&dq=who+invented+the+first+deck+oven+for+pizzas+frank+mastro&source=bl&ots=zpSB2DLJwG&sig=jGtPhyslebvKC5AWCFKqeXx1GK8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj_mZW1v7TaAhXBqYMKHXvFB0I4ChDoAQg6MAM#v=onepage&q=who%20invented%20the%20first%20deck%20oven%20for%20pizzas%20frank%20mastro&f=false

And another ad in Billboard on page 29

https://books.google.com/books?id=9R0EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA29&lpg=PA29&dq=Frank+Mastro+Company,+inc.+240+Bowery+ny+12+pizza+ovens&source=bl&ots=HMXICYhQw2&sig=7LPlfI6KD4h96LbKgkmqx_Gd6Ks&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi-1e-jwrTaAhUm4YMKHRSPCwcQ6AEITDAD#v=onepage&q=Frank%20Mastro%20Company%2C%20inc.%20240%20Bowery%20ny%2012%20pizza%20ovens&f=false

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on April 12, 2018, 07:05:17 AM
From an article in 1939 about pizza.

https://books.google.com/books?id=fF1RDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT1048&lpg=PT1048&dq=New+york+York+Herald+Tribune+food+columnist+Clementine+Paddleford+in+1939+pizza&source=bl&ots=UfB-RsZ9bV&sig=HoUT9BIaMpOeIKZG8KRXONvud4c&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwig2vCcybTaAhUm7YMKHRqQBPUQ6AEILzAB#v=onepage&q=New%20york%20York%20Herald%20Tribune%20food%20columnist%20Clementine%20Paddleford%20in%201939%20pizza&f=false

From that article and what food columnist said in 1939 it seems that is when Madeline Mastro Ferrentino told Walter and me that Madeline father thought about selling pizzas at that World's Fair, but decided not to.  If that is true it would predate Ira Nevin. 

Never heard before that pizza might have been called pizzapaia. 


Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on April 12, 2018, 07:25:53 AM
Another article that describes how people ate in 1939 and pizza on page 19.

https://books.google.com/books?id=xtQabclg5AsC&pg=PA19&lpg=PA19&dq=New+york+York+Herald+Tribune+food+columnist+Clementine+Paddleford+in+1939+pizza&source=bl&ots=9AiOngdwoQ&sig=yCgIgzf5UyeRvDKspUBwkOplkWk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwig2vCcybTaAhUm7YMKHRqQBPUQ6AEIOzAE#v=onepage&q=New%20york%20York%20Herald%20Tribune%20food%20columnist%20Clementine%20Paddleford%20in%201939%20pizza&f=false

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: invertedisdead on April 12, 2018, 11:13:10 AM

And another ad in Billboard on page 29

https://books.google.com/books?id=9R0EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA29&lpg=PA29&dq=Frank+Mastro+Company,+inc.+240+Bowery+ny+12+pizza+ovens&source=bl&ots=HMXICYhQw2&sig=7LPlfI6KD4h96LbKgkmqx_Gd6Ks&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi-1e-jwrTaAhUm4YMKHRSPCwcQ6AEITDAD#v=onepage&q=Frank%20Mastro%20Company%2C%20inc.%20240%20Bowery%20ny%2012%20pizza%20ovens&f=false

Norma

Very cool Norma.

Here's an ad, also in Billboard Magazine for Ira Nevin and Bakers Pride, this issue was released just two weeks after Mastro's ad in the same publication.

https://books.google.com/books?id=vRkEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA75&lpg=PA75&dq=ira+nevin+bakers+pride+ny+pizza&source=bl&ots=seuZid3ex5&sig=DXZRNzFkpuBzLn5u7FrBSu-rnmE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwji7bXc-bTaAhVmjVQKHe8GBToQ6AEIRjAD#v=onepage&q=ira%20nevin%20bakers%20pride%20ny%20pizza&f=false

The PMQ says "Mastro reportedly sold more than 3,000 pizza ovens between 1938 and 1953."
Is there is a source for that reference?


Nevin's story seems quite compelling considering he was a third generation oven builder himself, engineered propulsion systems for US war planes, and witnessed pizza being made while serving in Italy.

From my research there is very few sources outside of Vincent and Madeline Mastro Ferrentino themselves.
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: HarryHaller73 on April 12, 2018, 11:29:54 AM
"After World War II, and continuing through the 1950s, Blodgett built upon its previous success. Each passing year brought increased revenues, with more benefits accruing to the company's employees all the time. The Patrick family, still in control of the company's entire operations, built a tradition of excellent management-employee relations over the years. Not only rewarding its long-term workers with profit sharing and generous pension plans, the Patrick family never laid off a single worker during the time it ran the company. By 1958, Blodgett had grown large enough for management to consider expanding company operations overseas. Consequently, Blodgett International contracted its first foreign distributor in the same year. Another development in the 1950s was the introduction of a line of pizza deck ovens."

http://www.fundinguniverse.com/company-histories/blodgett-holdings-inc-history/

"Bakers Pride was founded in 1945 and began offering the Y-602 Double Pizza Oven. Many New York pizzerias purchased this oven for creating chef quality pizza. Some original models are still in operation.[1] The brand offers a full line of deck ovens and gas counter top ovens such as the VH-1828 series.[2] The GC182 oven features two separate 18 inch conveyors.[3]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakers_Pride

Keep in mind that there were electric pizza ovens built and sold prior to the war.   
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on April 12, 2018, 11:58:40 AM
Very cool Norma.

Here's an ad, also in Billboard Magazine for Ira Nevin and Bakers Pride, this issue was released just two weeks after Mastro's ad in the same publication.

https://books.google.com/books?id=vRkEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA75&lpg=PA75&dq=ira+nevin+bakers+pride+ny+pizza&source=bl&ots=seuZid3ex5&sig=DXZRNzFkpuBzLn5u7FrBSu-rnmE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwji7bXc-bTaAhVmjVQKHe8GBToQ6AEIRjAD#v=onepage&q=ira%20nevin%20bakers%20pride%20ny%20pizza&f=false

The PMQ says "Mastro reportedly sold more than 3,000 pizza ovens between 1938 and 1953."
Is there is a source for that reference?


Nevin's story seems quite compelling considering he was a third generation oven builder himself, engineered propulsion systems for US war planes, and witnessed pizza being made while serving in Italy.

From my research there is very few sources outside of Vincent and Madeline Mastro Ferrentino themselves.

Ryan,

Thanks for the link about the Baker's Pride ad.

Can't find the link right now about how many ovens Mastro reportedly sold between 1928 and 1953 because I can't recall what search words that were used before.

I agree Nevin's story sounds compelling on all that he did but so does Frank Mastro's story.  They both were brilliant men.

Probably if Frank and Vinnie had lived longer there might be more on the web about them.

I did email younger Vinnie Mastro to see if he has any kind of document or photos.  Also asked Vinnie if he knows if Frank Mastro Ferrentino has anything.

From this link Madeline talks about all her father did.

https://www.fermag.com/articles/6390-this-is-a-wonderful-old-business

Bari claims to claims to have been shipping pizza oven to pizzerias all over the city since 1930 but don't think that is true.

http://observer.com/2012/07/bowery-restaurant-supply-last-suppliers-bourgeois/

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on April 15, 2018, 08:56:22 PM
Just a little more information from Vinnie Mastro.


Hi Norma,
Nice to hear from you.  The only picture we have is the one that was in the Pizza Magazine article and I think my Aunt Madeline has the original.  I don't know the time frame.  One way of guessing however is when did blodgett sell their first pizza oven under their name.  I believe that date was 1953.  So you can estimate at a minimum they signed the royalty agreement with my Grandfather a year earlier than that which brings it to 52.  No manufacturer would even entertain the idea without a few years of real, tangible sales as proof of market viability.  I know my grandfather sold ovens in Quebec as well as Puerto Rico.  So my guess is we are probably into the upper 40s now.  We also know for certain that we sold Pizza Ovens under the Mastro name plate before they were sold under the Blodgett name plate.  So that also suggests it was sometime before 52.

It is a shame.  My Aunt Mary knew all this stuff (Madeline's older sister) but she passed a dozen years ago.

On a more positive note...  I got an email about 6 months ago from a guy who said he wanted to contact me to thank the Mastro family for everything we did to help his family get into the Pizza and catering business.  It turns out his dad had 4 or so pizza shops in NYC with their primary location on or near Wall Street.  In 2008, with the financial collapse, his father shut down the stores and retired.  This guy had just finished closing his father's estate (he had passed a year or 2 earlier) and his last act was to contact me.  I actually met him for lunch one day.  He told me that his father loved my dad and as a boy working in the pizzeria; his father would say something positive about my dad almost every day.  It was very nice to hear.  It was one more proof point of the strategy my father and grandfather used to create the pizza market and it is also another example where a person has told me how great a guy my dad was.

Good luck and thank you for your interest,

Vinnie


I then asked Vinnie what were the names of the pizzerias near Wall St. and other ones the guy owned.  Also asked Vinnie if I could post what he replies on the forum.

This is Vinnie's second reply:

The name of the Pizzeria's:

Here is a quote from his email to me:  The name of my father little pizzeria chains were called Best Pizza and Hero
Restaurants 1,11 and specifically one located on Rector street downtown Wall Street area. My father always spoke so highly of your father and how they were close friends and often went out to dinner on Mulberry Street in Little Italy. My father also worked at your family’s Pizza stand at the 1964-65 world’s fair and was a consultant and trained new franchises and new purchasers of your family’s pizza ovens from preparing the dough to the cooking and cleaning process of your family’s pizza ovens.
Vinnie


Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on April 15, 2018, 09:04:48 PM
Not sure if this is legend or what, but Scott's Pizza Tours posted about the Silvestro family that opened Joe's Tomato Pies in the Chambersburg section of Trenton, NJ, but legend says they were making pizza on Spring Street in NYC as far back as 1905.

Wonder if that was the pizzeria on Spring St. that we were looking for awhile ago.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BhcROYenl6P/?taken-by=scottspizzatours

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on April 16, 2018, 04:44:01 AM
In case anyone is interested in the pizzeria on Spring it was posted about before earlier in this thread.  Will post the link again.

https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83030272/1905-06-18/ed-1/seq-31/#words=bakers+Neapolitan&date1=1836&rows=20&searchType=basic&state=&date2=1905&proxtext=Neapolitan+bakers&y=0&x=0&dateFilterType=yearRange&index=0

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on April 25, 2018, 10:17:58 PM

I was talking to Frank Giaquinto this evening.  Frank said when he first learned to make pizzas he only opened them with flour, and so did his father and grandfather.  Frank picked up opening dough balls with oil at Carlos, while watching pie makers there.  Frank also saw other pizzerias in the NYC area open doughs with oil after that.  Frank's main reason for preferred opening with oil is the sauce glides on better and he thinks the crust gets crisper.  Frank can open pizzas many ways.  Talked to Frank about when there was a photo posted of him using a screen.  Frank said he used that screen at a school when making pizzas for disabled children in a Blodgett convection oven. 

Talked to Frank about if  NY style pizzas really had bigger fatter crusts many years ago.  Frank said that is true. 

Frank said he grandfather sold pies from a cart somewhere in the vicinity of 1909-1913 and the whole pizzas were $.25.  Frank also said he brother worked at Mastro's Pizza at the World's Fair in 1964. 

A link to Aldo's II Pizzeria and Restaurant in Ozone Park, NY.  Those pizzas do look like they have bigger fatter rims.

http://pizzahalloffame.com/aldos-ii-pizzeria-restaurant/

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: scott123 on April 25, 2018, 11:01:33 PM
A link to Aldo's II Pizzeria and Restaurant in Ozone Park, NY.  Those pizzas do look like they have bigger fatter rims.

http://pizzahalloffame.com/aldos-ii-pizzeria-restaurant/

Larger rim, yes, John Arena thickness, no.  And, for the record, those pizzas were very clearly edge stretched  ;D
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: Essen1 on April 25, 2018, 11:57:01 PM
John Arena thickness, no. 

I'm amused that you have such a strong opinion, judgement and an obviously clear understanding of a man you have never met, let alone talked to or learned anything from.

A little bit of self-reflection might be in order.
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: scott123 on April 26, 2018, 12:16:25 AM
A little bit of self-reflection might be in order.

LOL Last I checked, this was pizza, not Zen Buddhism, Mike.

It's not that complicated.  All it takes is a pair of eyes to tell the innate differences between these pizzas.
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on April 26, 2018, 01:28:35 AM

It's not that complicated.  All it takes is a pair of eyes to tell the innate differences between these pizzas.

Scott,

You might be surprised at what John's pizzas looked like in the 70's.  Also some of John Arena's pizza at the Pizza Expo look exactly like the kind of pizzas you like for NY style.

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on May 05, 2018, 06:30:45 AM
Seems like way back on September, 5th, 1915 in San Francisco that even was the mention of pizze in a cartoon. 

https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn85066408/1915-09-05/ed-1/seq-8/#date1=1789&index=1&rows=20&words=pizze&searchType=basic&sequence=0&state=&date2=1963&proxtext=pizze&y=18&x=9&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=1

And another mention of pizze April 16, 1916 in San Francisco, California.
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn85066408/1916-04-16/ed-1/seq-3/#date1=1789&sort=relevance&rows=20&words=pizze&searchType=basic&sequence=0&index=7&state=&date2=1963&proxtext=pizze&y=18&x=9&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=2

Norma
Title: Looking for Pics of old Coal Fired Ovens
Post by: vangelo on May 13, 2018, 05:44:31 PM
Hi Folks, 

I am looking for old pictures of coal fired pizza ovens.  I was contacted this week from someone at Scholastic who wants to write an article for 6th graders about pizza.  She would like to know about the physical size and shape of coal fired ovens in the past.  She said it will have more meaning for the kids if she can provide those kinds of details.

Thanx,
Vinnie
Title: Re: Looking for Pics of old Coal Fired Ovens
Post by: norma427 on May 13, 2018, 09:41:49 PM
Hi Folks, 

I am looking for old pictures of coal fired pizza ovens.  I was contacted this week from someone at Scholastic who wants to write an article for 6th graders about pizza.  She would like to know about the physical size and shape of coal fired ovens in the past.  She said it will have more meaning for the kids if she can provide those kinds of details.

Thanx,
Vinnie

Vinnie,

I think your Aunt Madeline was talking about a coal fired oven something like the one Scott Wiener posted at

https://slice.seriouseats.com/2011/07/scotts-pizza-chronicles-rise-and-fall-and-rise-of-the-coal-oven.html

Photo copied and attached.  At least that is what I recalled seeing a photo of or something somewhat like that.  Scott does say it was used for bread and pizza, but still was large compared to today's deck ovens.  Those kinds of coal fired ovens are harder to control in terms of keeping the basic same temperatures.

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: Zing on May 26, 2018, 12:03:38 AM
Just have time for a quick reply, but there are plenty of pictures on the web of the coal ovens of Lombardi's, 32 Spring St. in Manhattan and Totonno's, 1524 Neptune Avenue in Brooklyn. Using Google Images get you a lot of them in a hurray.
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on September 10, 2018, 09:30:03 AM
Was going though articles Madeline sent me in 2015.  Don't think this one was posted before.  Have other articles Madeline sent if anyone is interested.

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on September 18, 2018, 09:26:12 AM
This article about “How Pizza Conquered America” was in this months Scholastic Scope magazine, and was written my Anna Starecheski.  The article talks about Frank Mastro “The Pizza King” and different things Frank Mastro did to promote the ovens he invented and other things.  It also says Vincent Mastro invented the frozen pizza dough to be used at pizzerias.  If I recall right Frank Mastro invented the frozen pizza dough, but could be wrong.  Vinnie Mastro sent me this article, but said he didn't contribute to the article.

https://scope.scholastic.com/pages/topics/history.html?page=1


Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on October 17, 2018, 02:00:11 PM
State of the Slice, Part 1: A Slice of New York Pizza History


https://www.seriouseats.com/2018/10/new-york-pizza-slice-history.html

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: waltertore on October 17, 2018, 07:34:51 PM
Norma:  Thanks for sharing this article.  It finally gives credit to Frank Mastro for all he did with making pizza what it is today.  I am happy for his daughter Madeline who was so wanting this to be legitimized in todays pizza world.  Also I am glad they gave you credit for the PMQ article.  I was upset your name was not on the byline as you have done more work to bring the Mastro legacy to today's generation.  Walter
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on October 17, 2018, 09:03:22 PM
Norma:  Thanks for sharing this article.  It finally gives credit to Frank Mastro for all he did with making pizza what it is today.  I am happy for his daughter Madeline who was so wanting this to be legitimized in todays pizza world.  Also I am glad they gave you credit for the PMQ article.  I was upset your name was not on the byline as you have done more work to bring the Mastro legacy to today's generation.  Walter

Walter,

Adam told me they were working on the article a couple of weeks ago.  Yes, glad that Frank Mastro finally got credit for all he did.  I am also happy for Madeline too.  That was okay that my name was not on the PMQ byline. 

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: Pete-zza on January 21, 2019, 12:12:41 PM
This morning, I came across this recent article at the New York Times on the ubiquitous NY slice:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/16/dining/slice-joint-pizza-new-york-city.html

Norma and also Walter may want to take note of the mention of Frank Mastro and his contributions to the NY pizza.

Peter
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on January 21, 2019, 07:37:57 PM
This morning, I came across this recent article at the New York Times on the ubiquitous NY slice:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/16/dining/slice-joint-pizza-new-york-city.html

Norma and also Walter may want to take note of the mention of Frank Mastro and his contributions to the NY pizza.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks so much for the link that has the mention of Frank Mastro.  Think it was Scott Wiener (that I finally convinced about Frank Mastro), that is spreading the word about Frank Mastro inventing the first gas deck oven for NY style pizzas.  At first it was a tough sell.   :-D

https://www.seriouseats.com/2018/10/new-york-pizza-slice-history.html

Scott also let me preview his private collections of pizza photos and ads for old pizzerias.  Sure was interesting.  :)  Wish I would be able to get to one of Scott's lectures on NYC pizzas. 

Maybe you might be interested in listening to this podcast.  It is about A Slice of History.  Pizza in NYC

https://www.wnyc.org/story/slice-history-pizza-nyc/

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on January 21, 2019, 07:44:00 PM
This is Scott's coming event I would like to attend.  It is sold out though now. 

https://www.eventbrite.com/e/scott-wiener-presents-uncovering-nycs-pizza-past-tickets-53968820194

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: Pete-zza on January 21, 2019, 08:02:05 PM
Maybe you might be interested in listening to this podcast.  It is about A Slice of History.  Pizza in NYC

https://www.wnyc.org/story/slice-history-pizza-nyc/

Norma
Norma,

Thanks for the link to the podcast. I got a kick out of the people who called in to the radio station with their favorite $1 a slice recommendations.

Peter
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on January 21, 2019, 11:36:38 PM
Norma,

Thanks for the link to the podcast. I got a kick out of the people who called in to the radio station with their favorite $1 a slice recommendations.

Peter

Peter,

I learned something new from that podcast.  Toppings were called "centers".   :-D  Wonder if that will ever come back in style. 

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: Pete-zza on February 06, 2019, 01:08:13 PM
Jon in Albany posted a link to an article that bears on the origin of pizza in the US:

https://uspizzamuseum.com/2019/02/05/lost-forefathers-of-pizza-in-america-discovered/

Peter
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on March 15, 2019, 01:08:40 PM
Walter contacted me yesterday to tell me he was contacted by Rick at PMQ about PBS doing a Mastro Story and said I got one too.  Not sure if PBS is doing another video or another story on Mastro.  Scott Wiener gave me this link this morning.  Talked to Vinnie Mastro on messenger last evening and he said he got an email too.  Have to email Scott and see if he knows if this is all PBS is going to do or if something else is in the works.  Maybe Walter knows more.

Scott said this is the clip on PBS, and Scott mentions and shows a photo of Frank Mastro, and said he is the person that changed pizza.  Have to email Scott back and see if this is the full story, or just part of it.

This invention carried the New York pizza slice to international fame  PBS New Hour.

The New York pizza slice became a triumph of the modern food system thanks to one simple innovation.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tguUPoSdnkw

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on March 16, 2019, 01:16:39 AM
About the same article but published in text yesterday.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/science/how-the-new-york-pizza-slice-became-universal

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on March 16, 2019, 03:50:29 PM
This is a photo Mastro Pizza exhibit. The long sign pointing towards the workers says "We invite you to join our Mastro pizza professors to learn to make pizza in the Mastro manner."

Just for kicks this is the whole thread, in case anyone is interested in what was posted.  Maybe someday someone will stumble on more information.

http://www.worldsfaircommunity.org/topic/244-mastro-pizza-pavilion/


Norma

Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: waltertore on March 16, 2019, 06:31:05 PM
Thanks for posting that photo from the Mastro Pavillion at the NYC Worlds Fair.  I was there with my father and remember all the ovens they had in it.  I feel the Mastro  mojo everyday as we use the same ovens - Blodgett 1000's.  They are wonderful and I feel so lucky to keep them up to snuff.  They are 50 years old but run like new!  Thanks Frank Mastro.  Walter
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on September 26, 2019, 07:25:41 AM
Received a message, and talked to Frank Mastro Ferrentino yesterday.  Frank told me that his Mother Madeline had a stroke this past Monday.  Madeline's whole left side of her body is affected.  Madeline conveyed to Frank in the best way she could, that she wants to go back to where she lived and receive Hospice care.   I was saddened to hear about Madeline.   :'(

Another article about how the gas-fueled oven carried the New York slice to glory.

How the gas-fuel oven carried the New York slice to glory

“That totally changed all things pizza,” Wiener said. “That put a flame underneath an oven floor instead of inside the oven, so you could get indirect heat.”

With Mastro’s invention, pizzas baked more evenly and bronzed on the top without charring, unlike with coal ovens. At 550 to 600 degrees Fahrenheit, the deck ovens prepared pizza in minutes, and the resulting slices can be quickly handled without scorching your fingertips. This advantage set the stage for prebaking pizza that could be easily reheated by the slice, for service and sale to the public, Wiener said.

“The New York slice is unique among pizza styles because it’s a grab and go style,” Wiener said. “It’s the kind of food that lends itself very well to urban environments where there’s a lot of pedestrian traffic. Foot traffic equals pizza by the slice.”


https://www.pbs.org/newshour/science/how-the-new-york-pizza-slice-became-universal

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on October 18, 2019, 08:53:12 AM
I received a message from Frank Mastro Ferrentino that Madeline Mastro Ferrentino has passed. 

https://www.ryanfuneralhome.com/book-of-memories/3981167/Ferrentino-Madeline/obituary.php


Frank said he has retrieved a lot of paperwork that Madeline saved regarding the family business.  Hopefully someday it all will be published.  Frank also worked for many summers in the family business in the Bowery, when Madeline would send him to NYC for the summer.

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on October 19, 2019, 08:04:05 AM
A little slower version of the Mastro Pizza Pavilion.  I could pick up a little more from this video cause it is slower.  Guess that is how my old mind processes thing better.

Don't think I caught it before, but the video says 17” pizzas were made.  As can be seen in the slower video, the rims of the pizza seem like they are well risen. And is said the is light and exploding with bubbles.

Louie Lamonica was also mentioned as the Vice President of Pizza Plaza.  Still think Louis Lamoncia and maybe other are who robbed the home store of the Mastro's the night of the black out, and the night Vinnie Mastro passed.

Wonder how they froze those dough balls.  Don't think they had blast freezers then.  The frozen dough balls look quite puffy. 

Forconi Dairy products for pizza cheeses were used.  Is Forconi Dairy spelled right?  Would like to research them.

Anyone else pick up anything new from the video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7fe4NRAOgA


Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: waltertore on October 21, 2019, 07:00:00 PM
Norma:  That is sad about Madeline.  She was a nice lady and I enjoyed interviewing her.   Hopefully the Mastro story will all come out someday.  That is a great video.   Walter
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on October 21, 2019, 07:56:56 PM
Norma:  That is sad about Madeline.  She was a nice lady and I enjoyed interviewing her.   Hopefully the Mastro story will all come out someday.  That is a great video.   Walter

Walter,

Thanks for doing all of those dropbox interviews with Madeline!  I listened to some of them over the weekend again.

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: Chicago Bob on October 21, 2019, 08:15:05 PM
Walter,

Thanks for doing all of those dropbox interviews with Madeline!  I listened to some of them over the weekend again.

Norma
is there a link for those interviews Norma... I'd like to check then out.
Thank you....
Bob
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on October 21, 2019, 08:45:35 PM
is there a link for those interviews Norma... I'd like to check then out.
Thank you....
Bob

Bob,

Walter's interviews with Madeline and Vinnie Mastro are at Reply 177

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14920.msg412975;topicseen#msg412975

Hope you enjoy them.  They tell a lot about what happened years ago.

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on May 31, 2020, 04:30:27 AM


Think if anyone chooses to watch the video, they will learn a lot about how to make a pizza and other things, and also was fun to see the old scales, old ways to make pizza's and other things at an old school pizzeria, Rudy's.  Those old pizza ovens sure are cool!  Charlie, Fred and all of the other people in the video sure are fun to watch and hear about.  Old school NY style pizza's and Sicilian's, plus other interesting pizza related foods.

Additional links on how to find the documentary.

https://www.pizzashopmovie.com/2017/9/5/charlie-the-pizzaman

https://www.pizzashopmovie.com/gefepfqofra3hzutvovdd5mwh93wrb

https://www.pizzashopmovie.com/?fbclid=IwAR1rQS6QX2aN8pC_rc9m6G04AdFKUgkj4QG_s6AgVfxR-d9ERXva7YsXbDg

And on Facebook.

https://www.facebook.com/PizzaShopMovie/?eid=ARCqAQfxCrsq6t3Zs2Zt2qw9sOmWVTR2M-4qpiA36_7u8viVjFF_TyvsPu3BdSfsgpTaqUHVRLc4L5Wh

https://www.facebook.com/PizzaShopMovie/videos/1383973281679485/

https://www.facebook.com/1265233000220181/videos/440800330025756/

https://www.facebook.com/pg/PizzaShopMovie/videos/?ref=page_internal

On Instagram.
https://www.instagram.com/rudys_pizza_closter/?fbclid=IwAR0BEbcL-sqAWJbTmAtdDEcOM61kypPvRunCI0QdOrrcWu8Qc_kO4srQFWU


Thanks so much Walter!!  Enjoyed everything so much!!   ;D

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on May 31, 2020, 04:33:11 AM
Walter sent me an email saying, I got home tonight and saw this on the Jewish channel, and that I would dig it.  Walter's email had a link to Pizza Shop, an Italian-American dream.  I could not get that link to work to watch the the documentary about how two Italian brothers came to America to make a better life for themselves and families years ago.  I found a link that worked but can't find out how to post it here.  :-\

Thanks so much Walter!!  ;D

And on Facebook.


https://www.facebook.com/pg/PizzaShopMovie/videos/?ref=page_internal

On Instagram.
https://www.instagram.com/rudys_pizza_closter/?fbclid=IwAR0BEbcL-sqAWJbTmAtdDEcOM61kypPvRunCI0QdOrrcWu8Qc_kO4srQFWU

Norma

Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on May 31, 2020, 04:45:39 AM
The podcast.

https://italianamericanpodcast.com/iap-115-pizza-shop-an-italian-american-dream-an-interview-with-filmmaker-antony-osso/

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on May 31, 2020, 04:48:20 AM
Where to watch the documentary.

https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B07KNBFKCH/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1542474565&sr=8-1&keywords=pizza+shop+an+italian+american+dream

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on May 31, 2020, 04:51:21 AM
https://www.pizzashopmovie.com/?fbclid=IwAR3sVuxYQ-uEEq_U7iPe8WBKUqNFTfL1MZlpP3wPKjHaksbrS7k9ObNCfeI

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: foreplease on May 31, 2020, 09:59:48 AM
Thanks, Norma. I just bookmarked it after seeing Walter’s post in Shop Talk. I’m sure I will enjoy watching this.
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: waltertore on May 31, 2020, 12:52:08 PM
Walter sent me an email saying, I got home tonight and saw this on the Jewish channel, and that I would dig it.  Walter's email had a link to Pizza Shop, an Italian-American dream.  I could not get that link to work to watch the the documentary about how two Italian brothers came to America to make a better life for themselves and families years ago.  I found a link that worked but can't find out how to post it here.  :-\

Thanks so much Walter!!  ;D

And on Facebook.


https://www.facebook.com/pg/PizzaShopMovie/videos/?ref=page_internal

On Instagram.
https://www.instagram.com/rudys_pizza_closter/?fbclid=IwAR0BEbcL-sqAWJbTmAtdDEcOM61kypPvRunCI0QdOrrcWu8Qc_kO4srQFWU

Norma

I knew you would like it Norma :)  I get the Jewish TV channel on our dish service.  They have the Jack Benny Show, You Bet Your Life with Groucho Marx, and The Goldbergs, and other interesting shows.   I was shocked to see this documentary on when I got home.  I was exhausted from a busy night and all the political stuff going on (we had riots in Reno last night) and was hoping to laugh with one of these old tv shows.  I was raised with people like on the documentary and made me proud to keep the roots of NY/NJ pizza alive. I hope I can  see it again. 
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on May 31, 2020, 03:19:55 PM
I knew you would like it Norma :)  I get the Jewish TV channel on our dish service.  They have the Jack Benny Show, You Bet Your Life with Groucho Marx, and The Goldbergs, and other interesting shows.   I was shocked to see this documentary on when I got home.  I was exhausted from a busy night and all the political stuff going on (we had riots in Reno last night) and was hoping to laugh with one of these old tv shows.  I was raised with people like on the documentary and made me proud to keep the roots of NY/NJ pizza alive. I hope I can  see it again.

Walter,

Yep, sure did like it!   ;D  I sure can't get the Jewish TV channel, but it seemed to work for me on Amazon.  I don't have Amazon prime, but it let me watch it when the first option was picked.

Sorry to hear you were exhausted from a busy night and those riots in Reno last night.  Can understand how that documentary made you feel proud to keep the roots of NY/NY pizza alive.  :D

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: TheLittleItalianKitchen on July 19, 2020, 09:36:28 PM
This reply may not be politically correct in here but growing up on nyc all we really knew was gas deck oven apizza and to me deck oven is far better the coal or wood fired ovens. I would say that nyc pizza is deck oven pizza  by definition since it's been used as the primary oven in the 60s 70s and 80 and even the 90s.  Coal is a more of a new trendy attempt to be unique.  I will take deck oven over coal or wood anyday of the week.  Best pizza I ever had was in penn station a place called figaros the little italian kitchen a whole in the wall but the best I ever had.  Deck oven of course.  Just my thoughts. 
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: Chicago Bob on July 19, 2020, 10:44:27 PM
Good thoughts.  8)
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: norma427 on September 19, 2020, 10:25:31 PM
If anyone is interested in the video “Rewriting New York City Pizza History” with Scott Wiener and Peter Regas, think it is very good in explaining many things that we didn't know before.  Watched it on Zoom and we could ask questions.  Find it interesting to when they talk about Trenton Tomato Pies.  Lots of documents and photos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EIJtUlY1-o&t=233s

Norma
Title: Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)
Post by: RHawthorne on September 23, 2020, 12:37:08 AM
If anyone is interested in the video “Rewriting New York City Pizza History” with Scott Wiener and Peter Regas, think it is very good in explaining many things that we didn't know before.  Watched it on Zoom and we could ask questions.  Find it interesting to when they talk about Trenton Tomato Pies.  Lots of documents and photos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EIJtUlY1-o&t=233s

Norma
I've got that one on my watch later list, but I haven't gotten around to it yet. Looks good.