Pizza Making Forum

Reference, Questions and Help => Dough Clinic => Topic started by: Jersey Pie Boy on January 28, 2015, 10:24:31 PM

Title: HG vs BF Question
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on January 28, 2015, 10:24:31 PM
Hi Tom,

  All others factors being equal, would an HG flour like All Trumps produce a noticeably crisper bottom crust than a BF flour?

I understand the HG dough would be slightly stronger because of the increased protein, but I'm thinking the reason tonight's HG pie had a crispier bottom than the BF was because of topping factors rather than flour qualiities.

After five days in the fridge , he Better for Bread dough had developed more far  complex flavors than the All Trump  (just personal preference I'm sure, but the difference was very pronounced) , so I  am thinking BF will be my go-to choice, but my wife noted the nice crisp bottom of the AT pie. But the pies had entirely different toppings, and I think I may well have over-sauced the BF version, which led to a less crisp and wetter crust. The AT version had no sauce, just cheese, bacon and olives   

Title: Re: HG vs BF Question
Post by: Chicago Bob on January 28, 2015, 10:55:02 PM

  Pound for
Title: Re: HG vs BF Question
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on January 29, 2015, 11:11:27 AM
Thanks, Chicago Bob
Title: Re: HG vs BF Question
Post by: The Dough Doctor on January 29, 2015, 11:43:19 AM

What we found many years ago is that the higher the protein content of the flour the greater its potential for creating a crispier crust. You can get a first row seat to seeing this if you make fried chicken using flour. Make one or two pieces using a lower protein flour and the same using a high protein flour. In all of our tests we found that the high protein flour (13.2%+) resulted in a coating that was more than just crispy, it was hard and "flinty". To some extent the same thing happens in pizza crust BUT there are so many other factors that come into play that it is hard to make a definitive statement. Things that influence the crispiness of the bottom of a pizza crust: the dough ingredients (especially sugar, eggs or milk), amount of fermentation, absorption, thickness of the pizza skin, what the pizza is baked on, if a pan pizza the color, thickness and depth of the pan as well as the use of oil or shortening in the pan, the type and thickness of the material the pizza is baked on, the baking time and temperature, change any one or more of these and you run the risk of changing the crispiness on the bottom of the crust. here aren't nearly as many variables with the chicken.
This is why there is so much confusion over crispiness, there are so many variables that we can think we are doing the exact same thing to evaluate crispiness but in reality a variable has crept in to distort our findings. Add to that the subjectivity that is used to assess crispiness and you begin to get a feeling for what we are up against. By the way, when we evaluate crispiness in the lab we use a Texture Analyzer to make the distinctions so subjectivity is off of the table as a variable.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
Title: Re: HG vs BF Question
Post by: Chicago Bob on January 29, 2015, 01:40:28 PM

  Jersey Bill,
As always, Tom gives an excellent answer. There's another thing to remember too and that is the lee-way the flour producers are given as to protein content reporting.  One could quite possibly have a "BF" that is on the upper scale of protein and a "HG" flour that is on the lower scale of protein content(for their respective categories) in essence both may be very close to being the same(protein wise).   Know what I mean?
Title: Re: HG vs BF Question
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on January 29, 2015, 01:47:40 PM

Thank you so much for that explanation. Wow! Maybe I should be frying up some chicken  :)

As I've danced around in a few posts, I'm wanting to get a 50 lb bag of a good choice of flour for both my "NY-opolitan-ish but with crunch" pizzas and my artisan style breads. Since I'm only a home baker, one fifty pound bag of flour is a huge amount..but I was experimenting to see if I'd be short-changing my pizza if i used say, GM FS instead of AT (since AT isn't available in grocery stores, I stopped by a local pizzeria and said, "What do you use? AT?"  They said yes, and sold me a couple of pounds to play with.

As noted, my HG try it had nice crust (both pies baked on steel in home oven)  but the taste was nowhere near as full and complex as the BF (in lieu of GM FS, not yet purchased, I used GM BF) While the comparison wasn't perfect since the BF had been in the fridge one day longer than the HG, it was close..six days for BF, five for HG. A previous bake with HG had given me similar flavor (or lack thereof) results, so I don't think it was an isolated case (unless the pizzeria sold me a ringer  ;)..kidding) I did, for good measure grab one of their slices to go..he told me they did a two day cold retard, and to me, the only flavor was sugar in the sauce. I was picky about pizza befiore I started this I'm nearly unbearable  ;)

A disclaimer that could send me to "pizza science jail" Since this bake wasn't really being done to compare these two flours (but rather to determine rebound time between pies on the steel) the hydrations were quite different. The HG was at 62 percent, while the BF was at 70 percent. The HG seems to be less absorbent..or whatever the correct term for that would be..Maybe that could also be a factor is crispness? Also, an an experiment the HG was done as a no-knead, while the BF was done with stretch/folds. So, a whole lot of variables. If I'd planned a head-to-head test I would have not had those differences.

Any scientific thoughts why I might find more flavor from the BF over the it the way the flours respond to a long CF? Or something else?

Thanks Tom!
Title: Re: HG vs BF Question
Post by: The Dough Doctor on February 03, 2015, 04:06:58 PM
Chicago Bob;
You bring up a very good point. The terms of endearment "high gluten", "all purpose", and "bread" flour are just that, words. There is no set standard for protein quantity of flour in any of these termed categories, hence, what might be termed as a bread flour by one manufacturer could very well have a similar protein content and strength profile to a high gluten flour made by a different manufacturer. I have seen quite a few all purpose flours that had protein and strength characteristics right up there with a lot of what I would call bread flours.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
Title: Re: HG vs BF Question
Post by: GotRocks on February 03, 2015, 05:21:16 PM
We have tried "Bouncer" and "All Trumps" at 100% concentration in our dough formula and I was very disappointed in the results using either of those  flours at 100%.
All Trumps especially so.

We currently blend Bouncer and APF (Sysco H&R) in a specific ratio to get the qualities that we desire in our finished product.
I am tempted to make a small batch with just the APF to see what comes out

Title: Re: HG vs BF Question
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on February 07, 2015, 09:49:45 AM
As a follow-up test, I tried mixing the AT and Pillsbury Bread flour at 50/50, all other factors the same. Then I tried a 33% poolish version with the same flour ratios. Both were much tastier than the earlier try with 100% AT, and the poolish version had a far more developed flavor, as well as better OS. These were both baked after five days CF. Of course, I realize the flavor is totally subjective.

My scientific method is that if I want to just keep on eating it after a sensible portion has already been consumed, then it's really good...., TF, CF, RT, HR, AT,OS.BF,AP, BS all not withstanding.  :-D