Pizza Making Forum

Pizza Making => New York Style => Topic started by: Pete-zza on April 06, 2008, 09:13:09 AM

Title: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on April 06, 2008, 09:13:09 AM
Rather than burden JerryMac’s thread on his NY style pizza with my experiments, I decided to start this thread. Basically, what I was trying to achieve most recently is a 16” version of a JerryMac NY style pizza. In the course of doing so, I made a few changes to the dough recipe that Jerry posted at the thread he started at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5851.0.html.

The starting point for my latest effort was the baker’s percent dough formulation that I posted at Reply 52 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5851.msg55496.html#msg55496. In addition to scaling that recipe up to 16”, I made a few other changes. First, I used a hydration of 68%. That number was chosen because Jerry had indicated that the hydration for his dough is in the high 60s. Second, I used a thickness factor that was between the two values used by Jerry in making 13” and 14” pizzas. The thickness factor I used was 0.096738. Third, I decided to use a more classical method of making the poolish in which I used equal weights of flour and water, yielding a hydration of 100%. As in Jerry’s recipe, I used all of the formula water in the poolish. Fourth, I used honey instead of barley malt syrup, mainly because honey is easier for most people to find. As before, the flour used was the King Arthur bread flour. To improve its hydration, I sifted it. As discussed below, I also used the whisk attachment of my KitchenAid stand mixer to further improve the hydration of the flour used in the poolish. Fifth, I used a bowl residue compensation of 2.6% to compensate for minor dough losses during preparation of the dough. That value turned out to be almost perfect. Finally, I dressed the pizza on a 16” pizza screen and baked the pizza using a combination of the screen and my pizza stone. In preparation for making the pizza, I had preheated the oven and the stone for about an hour at around 500-550 degrees F.

Using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, the dough formulation I ended up with was as follows:

Flour (100%):
Water (68%):
IDY (1.3575%):
Salt – Morton’s Kosher (1.61763%):
Honey (4.71332%):
Total (175.68845%):
322.02 g  |  11.36 oz | 0.71 lbs
218.97 g  |  7.72 oz | 0.48 lbs
4.37 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.45 tsp | 0.48 tbsp
5.21 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.09 tsp | 0.36 tbsp
15.18 g | 0.54 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.17 tsp | 0.72 tbsp
565.75 g | 19.96 oz | 1.25 lbs | TF = 0.0992532
Note: the nominal thickness factor used in the tool is 0.096738; bowl residue compensation is 2.6%; the water was tap water at 68 degrees F

To prepare the poolish, I started by combining all of the flour (sifted) with all of the IDY. I then put all of the formula water, 7.72 oz., into the mixer bowl of my basic KitchenAid stand mixer. Using the whisk attachment at stir speed, I then gradually added 7.72 ounces of the flour/IDY to the water in the mixer bowl. When all of the flour was incorporated into the water, I removed the whisk attachment. To get the poolish that stuck to the whisk attachment off of the attachment, I simply tilted the mixer head (unlocked) back slightly while using the stir speed and then the 2 speed. That caused the poolish to spin off of the whisk attachment into the mixer bowl. The mixer bowl was then covered, and the poolish was allowed to preferment for 5 hours at a room temperature of about 67 degrees F. (Note: Technically, the poolish can be used a reasonable period of time after the poolish reaches the "break point". The break point is the point at which the poolish peaks and starts to recede, or collapse. All else being equal, the time that it takes to reach the break point will depend on the temperature, usually room temperature, at which the poolish preferments.)

At the end of the 5-hour preferment period, I added the honey, salt and the remaining flour/IDY to the poolish in the mixer bowl. Using the C-hook of my mixer, the ingredients were mixed initially at stir speed. Once all of the ingredients were fully combined, they were kneaded for about another 3 1/2 minutes at speed 2. The dough was then removed from the mixer bowl and placed on a lightly floured work surface, hand kneaded for about a minute, and shaped into a round ball. The dough was then put into a covered oiled container (a plastic Rubbermaid storage container) and allowed to ferment for 1 ½ hours. At the end of that time, the dough was punched down, reshaped, and allowed to proof for another 1 ½ hours (also in the covered Rubbermaid storage container). All of the times involved (preferment time and rise and proof times) were as generally recited by JerryMac.

As I expected, and as I had been forewarned by Jerry, the proofed dough was highly hydrated and very extensible. Using just enough bench flour to coat the dough skin as I initially shaped and stretched it out to about 12”, I was able to lift the skin and to further stretch it out to about 16”. This was the trickiest part of the entire dough handling exercise. However, I was able to drape the skin over my forearms and deposit it onto the 16” pizza screen. To be sure that the skin wouldn’t stick to the screen, I had lightly pre-sprayed the screen with a canola oil spray.

The pizza was dressed in a buffalo chicken style, using the same ingredients as described in Reply 644 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg55299.html#msg55299. The pizza was baked initially on the screen on the topmost oven rack position of my oven until the rim of the dough had risen and the cheeses were starting to bubble, about 4 minutes. I then shifted the pizza off of the screen (which I then removed from the oven) onto the pre-heated pizza stone (on the lowest oven rack position). The pizza baked on the stone for about 2 minutes, and once the bottom crust turned brown, I moved the pizza back to the topmost oven rack position for about another minute to achieve additional top crust browning.

The photos below show the finished pizza. The pizza was excellent. It had very good oven spring, with a large, chewy rim and a soft, airy crumb. There was also good crust coloration and flavor. I would say that the pizza overall was one of the best same-day pizzas I have ever made. The bottom crust of the pizza was not as crispy as I might have achieved had the pizza been baked entirely on my stone, but I expected that result. That would not have been an option in my case in any event, since my pizza stone cannot accommodate a pizza size greater than 14”. So, I have become accustomed to the slightly less crispy crusts when using a pizza screen.

For those who may be interested in using volume measurements for the flour in the dough formulation I used, I used November’s Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator at http://foodsim.toastguard.com/ to do the conversions of the weights of flour to volumes. The 7.72 oz. of flour used in the poolish converts to 1 c. + 1/2 c. + 1/4 c. + a bit more than 1 1/8 t. The remaining flour, 3.64 oz. (11.36 oz. – 7.72 oz. = 3.64 oz.), added to the poolish as part of the final mix converts to 1/2 c. + 1/3 c. + about 1/3 t. The 7.72 oz. of water is between 7/8 and 1 c. in a standard Pyrex measuring cup (viewed at eye level on a flat surface). To be sure that the correct amount of flour is measured out volumetrically, one should stir the flour in its container, lift the flour into the measuring cups/spoons using a scoop or kitchen tablespoon, and then level the tops with the flat edge of a standard kitchen knife. Of course, if one chooses to use a different pizza size for purposes of using the expanded dough calculating tool (with the same thickness factor and baker’s percents as recited above), it will be necessary to use November’s tool to get the correct conversions of the weights of flour to volumes. However, the numbers should be pretty straightforward and easy to use since the weights of the poolish flour and water are the same and all of the formula water is used in the poolish.

Peter

EDIT (4/24/21): For a replacement for the inoperative foodsim link, see https://www.pizzamaking.com/FoodSim.htm
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: JerryMac on April 07, 2008, 12:35:31 AM
Pete,

Great Lookin Pie Guy  :D :D :D  Kinda reminds me of somthin I've seen before  :-D :-D :-D :-D

Thanks GREATLY for the #'s you put to my Pie  ;D ;D Maybe it will help some of the Weights, 0/0's and "Formula" people here on the forum  ;D ;D ;D      I appeal more to the "Drips off the ends of Your Fingers People"  :-D :-D :-D

Best of all, I am REALY happy enjoyed the Dough  :-[ :-[ :-[

I don't own a screen, but have done this dough in a perforated pan, just a bit thicker as, I guess you would say, and "American Pie" and it was "Good", but this dough really screams to life when it hits a hot stone  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Thanks Again for the Effort Pete  ;D

Thinkin of changin my name to "The Same Day Dough Guy"

Try It Guys, Let Me Know Hot It Turns Out  :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D

Mangia Molte Bene  :chef:
Jerry
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on April 07, 2008, 10:32:22 AM
Jerry,

Thanks. My camera and photography skills didn't do the pizza justice. It was really a beautiful pizza.

I hope sometime to use a perforated disk, such as the 16" dark anodized perforated disk from pizzatools.com. I also have a couple of the special "hearth bake" perforated disks from pizzatools.com that are supposed to produce NY style pizzas such as baked in a deck oven (the disks are intended for impingement conveyor ovens). Those disks are also dark anodized disks, in 14" and 16" sizes.

As I noted in my post, the trickiest part was the high extensibility of the dough skin. When I accounted for the water content of the honey, the total effective hydration was just under 69%. That can be a difficult dough to handle unless one has a lot of experience working with very highly-hydrated doughs. My advice to those who are not used to working with highly hydrated doughs is to use a lower water percent in the dough calculating tool, maybe something close to 65%. As long as all of the water is used to make the poolish, along with an equal weight of flour, I think everything should fall into place. Of couse, the dough calculating tool can be used to make any size or number of pizzas of any desired thickness.

Peter
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: katef on April 12, 2008, 01:32:03 AM
I tried this formulation today and it came out great.  Going in I changed some things right off so even if I hadn't turned out well, I was going to try it again with your exact specifications.  I used corn syrup instead of honey because I'm just not a big honey fan, I had a mix of bread flour and all-purpose flour because I didn't know I was low on bread flour.  I also had to modify the rise times because apparently I can't read. 

I my oven was at 475 and I cooked it on a screen on the middle rack the entire time.

Anyway, it came out really well taste wise, the only thing it was really missing was that it didn't have quite the airiness of your crust, but I think that was the modified rise time.  This is the pizza I'm going to be making for awhile until I'm satisfied with the results. 

Thanks for posting your recipe for inspiration.
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on April 12, 2008, 10:03:44 AM
katef,

JerryMac’s recipe lends itself to many possible variations. For example, the other day I decided to modify JerryMac’s dough formulation and methods to use a classic poolish in which I used 80% of the formula water (a typical upper limit for a classical poolish) rather than all of the formula water, and only 1/32 t. of IDY. For those who have a set of “mini” teaspoons, the 1/32 t. measuring spoon is often called a “smidgen”. The temperature of the water used to make the poolish was around 62 degrees F (which is also typical for a classical poolish). An equal weight of flour was used in the poolish to yield a poolish hydration (weight of water divided by the weight of flour) of 100%. While I was at it, I also lowered the formula hydration to 65% to see if that would make the dough easier to handle when shaping and stretching the dough after the final 1 ½ hour proof (the answer turned out to be yes). I used essentially the same dough formulation as earlier posted but for a 14” dough ball rather than a 16” dough ball.

The poolish was allowed to ferment at room temperature (around 73 degrees F) for 18 hours. Of course, this meant that the dough would not be a same-day dough for most people. For a good part of the preferment time, there were very few signs of activity but for a few small bubbles here and there. But, at around 15 hours, the poolish became very active, with a lot of bubbling and an accompanying expansion in volume (about double). I have shown the appearance of the poolish in the first photo below.

After the 18-hour preferment period, I added the remaining ingredients to the mixer bowl and proceeded as I described earlier in this thread, following the instructions described by JerryMac for his basic recipe. The second photo below shows the finished dough (on my scale). As shown in that photo, the dough is quite damp and sticky.

The pizza itself was a simple pepperoni pizza with a pesto base, a pureed San Marzano tomato sauce (using La Regina DOP San Marzano tomatoes), shredded low-moisture part skim mozzarella cheese (Precious brand), and some Hormel pepperoni slices.

As a further experiment, I decided to use a dark anodized perforated disk to bake the pizza to see if using the disk would result in a good oven spring, which is always a concern when putting a cold disk (or pan) into the oven. The disk I used was a 14” dark anodized disk from pizzatools.com. The disk is one of the new “hearth” style disks intended to be used in an impingement conveyor oven to achieve a NY style bake as one might achieve using a deck oven. A photo of the disk I used is shown at Reply 11 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5173.msg44313.html#msg44313. The pizza was baked at a temperature of around 500-550 degrees F, on the lowest oven rack position. No pizza stone was used in conjunction with the disk. I just waited until the oven got to the desired bake temperature, which took around 12 minutes. This is clearly a plus as the weather warms up and there is little interest in cranking up the oven to preheat a stone for an hour or more. It took about 7 minutes to bake the pizza, or about a minute more than usual (when baking on a stone).

As the additional photos of the finished pizza shown below demonstrate, there was very good oven spring. And the bottom crust had a thin crispy layer that is characteristic of the NY style. The flavors and texture of the crust were comparable to what I achieved for the pizza described earlier in this thread. However, I can’t say that they were so noticeably better that I would recommend using the long poolish preferment in lieu of JerryMac’s same-day methods. However, I was able to demonstrate that a classic poolish method can be used if one so desires and that it is possible to use a disk to bake the pizza and still get a very good oven spring. My recent effort also suggests that there are perhaps countless variations of the poolish method that will produce good result with JerryMac’s basic dough recipe. In some future experiment, I will try using a standard perforated disk (also dark anodized) with the typical pattern of holes.

Peter
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: pnj on April 12, 2008, 02:43:50 PM
Looks awsome.

I am not a fan of moving the pizza around during cooking... seems like work. :)
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on April 12, 2008, 03:21:29 PM
pnj,

Thanks.

The last pizza baked entirely on the disk. I did not have to move the pizza around. The first pizza was 16", which is larger than my stone can handle by itself. So, to get the degree of bottom crust bake I was looking for, I moved the pizza off of the screen onto the stone. To keep the bottom from burning and to get a bit more top crust browning, I moved the pizza off of the stone to a higher oven position. It's like a pizzaiolo moving a pizza around in the oven.

Peter
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: JerryMac on April 12, 2008, 10:05:01 PM
Hey Guys,

I am so glad to see all the experementin and changin you you guys have been doin with the the dough  ;D ;D ;D ;D

That's what it's all about  :D   THINK  ;)  ENJOY  ;) and have fun  ;D ;D ;D ;D

Mangia Bene  :chef:
Jerry
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: ELittle on May 29, 2008, 10:40:01 PM
Rather than burden JerryMac’s thread on his NY style pizza with my experiments, I decided to start this thread. Basically, what I was trying to achieve most recently is a 16” version of a JerryMac NY style pizza. In the course of doing so, I made a few changes to the dough recipe that Jerry posted at the thread he started at (not allowed to post link)

The starting point for my latest effort was the baker’s percent dough formulation that I posted at Reply 52 at NO LINK. In addition to scaling that recipe up to 16”, I made a few other changes. First, I used a hydration of 68%. That number was chosen because Jerry had indicated that the hydration for his dough is in the high 60s. Second, I used a thickness factor that was between the two values used by Jerry in making 13” and 14” pizzas. The thickness factor I used was 0.096738. Third, I decided to use a more classical method of making the poolish in which I used equal weights of flour and water, yielding a hydration of 100%. As in Jerry’s recipe, I used all of the formula water in the poolish. Fourth, I used honey instead of barley malt syrup, mainly because honey is easier for most people to find. As before, the flour used was the King Arthur bread flour. To improve its hydration, I sifted it. As discussed below, I also used the whisk attachment of my KitchenAid stand mixer to further improve the hydration of the flour used in the poolish. Fifth, I used a bowl residue compensation of 2.6% to compensate for minor dough losses during preparation of the dough. That value turned out to be almost perfect. Finally, I dressed the pizza on a 16” pizza screen and baked the pizza using a combination of the screen and my pizza stone. In preparation for making the pizza, I had preheated the oven and the stone for about an hour at around 500-550 degrees F.

Using the expanded dough calculating tool at NO LINK, the dough formulation I ended up with was as follows:

Flour (100%):
Water (68%):
IDY (1.3575%):
Salt – Morton’s Kosher (1.61763%):
Honey (4.71332%):
Total (175.68845%):
322.02 g  |  11.36 oz | 0.71 lbs
218.97 g  |  7.72 oz | 0.48 lbs
4.37 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.45 tsp | 0.48 tbsp
5.21 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.09 tsp | 0.36 tbsp
15.18 g | 0.54 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.17 tsp | 0.72 tbsp
565.75 g | 19.96 oz | 1.25 lbs | TF = 0.0992532
Note: the nominal thickness factor used in the tool is 0.096738; bowl residue compensation is 2.6%; the water was tap water at 68 degrees F

To prepare the poolish, I started by combining all of the flour (sifted) with all of the IDY. I then put all of the formula water, 7.72 oz., into the mixer bowl of my basic KitchenAid stand mixer. Using the whisk attachment at stir speed, I then gradually added an equal amount of the flour, 7.72 oz., to the water in the mixer bowl. When all of the flour was incorporated into the water, I removed the whisk attachment. To get the poolish that stuck to the whisk attachment off of the attachment, I simply tilted the mixer head (unlocked) back slightly while using the stir speed and then the 2 speed. That caused the poolish to spin off of the whisk attachment into the mixer bowl. The mixer bowl was then covered, and the poolish was allowed to preferment for 5 hours at a room temperature of about 67 degrees F.

At the end of the 5-hour preferment period, I added the honey, salt and the remaining flour/IDY (3.64 oz.) to the poolish in the mixer bowl. Using the C-hook of my mixer, the ingredients were mixed initially at stir speed. Once all of the ingredients were fully combined, they were kneaded for about another 3 1/2 minutes at speed 2. The dough was then removed from the mixer bowl and placed on a lightly floured work surface, hand kneaded for about a minute, and shaped into a round ball. The dough was then put into a covered oiled container (a plastic Rubbermaid storage container) and allowed to ferment for 1 ½ hours. At the end of that time, the dough was punched down, reshaped, and allowed to proof for another 1 ½ hours. All of the times involved (preferment time and rise and proof times) were as generally recited by JerryMac.

As I expected, and as I had been forewarned by Jerry, the proofed dough was highly hydrated and very extensible. Using just enough bench flour to coat the dough skin as I initially shaped and stretched it out to about 12”, I was able to lift the skin and to further stretch it out to about 16”. This was the trickiest part of the entire dough handling exercise. However, I was able to drape the skin over my forearms and deposit it onto the 16” pizza screen. To be sure that the skin wouldn’t stick to the screen, I had lightly pre-sprayed the screen with a canola oil spray.

The pizza was dressed in a buffalo chicken style, using the same ingredients as described in Reply 644 at NO LINK. The pizza was baked initially on the screen on the topmost oven rack position of my oven until the rim of the dough had risen and the cheeses were starting to bubble, about 4 minutes. I then shifted the pizza off of the screen (which I then removed from the oven) onto the pre-heated pizza stone (on the lowest oven rack position). The pizza baked on the stone for about 2 minutes, and once the bottom crust turned brown, I moved the pizza back to the topmost oven rack position for about another minute to achieve additional top crust browning.

The photos below show the finished pizza. The pizza was excellent. It had very good oven spring, with a large, chewy rim and a soft, airy crumb. There was also good crust coloration and flavor. I would say that the pizza overall was one of the best same-day pizzas I have ever made. The bottom crust of the pizza was not as crispy as I might have achieved had the pizza been baked entirely on my stone, but I expected that result. That would not have been an option in my case in any event, since my pizza stone cannot accommodate a pizza size greater than 14”. So, I have become accustomed to the slightly less crispy crusts when using a pizza screen.

For those who may be interested in using volume measurements for the flour in the dough formulation I used, I used November’s Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator at NO LINK to do the conversions of the weights of flour to volumes. The 7.72 oz. of flour used in the poolish converts to 1 ½ c. + 4 T. + 2 t. The remaining flour, 3.64 oz. (11.36 oz. – 7.72 oz. = 3.64 oz.), added to the poolish as part of the final mix converts to ¾ c. + 1 T. + 2 ¾ t. The 7.72 oz. of water is between 7/8 and 1 c. in a standard Pyrex measuring cup (viewed at eye level on a flat surface). To be sure that the correct amount of flour is measured out volumetrically, one should stir the flour in its container, lift the flour into the measuring cups/spoons using a scoop or kitchen tablespoon, and then level the tops with the flat edge of a standard kitchen knife. Of course, if one chooses to use a different pizza size for purposes of using the expanded dough calculating tool (with the same thickness factor and baker’s percents as recited above), it will be necessary to use November’s tool to get the correct conversions of the weights of flour to volumes. However, the numbers should be pretty straightforward and easy to use since the weights of the poolish flour and water are the same and all of the formula water is used in the poolish.

Peter


I just joined a few days ago, and I am amazed by all of the information available here. I tried making this pizza tonight, and wow. It was chewy, had great flavor, and can be made in the same day. I was going to take a picture of it but before I knew what happened it was eaten. Its amazing how using the same ingredients but in a slight variation from normal can produce such different results. Thanks for the awesome recipe!

Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 29, 2008, 10:55:13 PM
ELittle,

I'm glad to hear that the recipe worked out well for you. The credit really goes to JerryMac. The recipe is a good one. I basically just manipulated the numbers to allow for different sizes.

If you use the recipe again, some photos would be welcome. I always like to see how different people get different results using the same recipe.

Out of curiosity, did you use the weight approach or the volume approach (for the flour and water)?

Peter
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: ELittle on May 30, 2008, 10:38:39 PM
I used the weight approach, using my kitchen scale to weigh out everything. Its not the best scale, but apparently it did the job. Also, I dont know if anyone else has done this, but I prefer to use rice flour on my stone and on my peel. It has a little more coarse of a consistency and helps the pizza to slide off a lot easier, plus it adds a little crunch and clean up is a ton easier.

Just a little something i picked up on at a local pizza place i worked at for a while. Ill make this recipe again on Sunday and post some pictures. Thanks!

Also, I'm thinking of cutting the dough in half to make 2 smaller pizzas so I can get them a bit thinner, its kind of hard getting a 15" or 16" pizza into my oven on the stone.
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: sourdough girl on May 30, 2008, 10:56:01 PM
ELittle,
I second your use of rice flour on the peel... I don't put it on the stone directly, but I know it helps on the peel and doesn't impart any off/burned flavors like some other peel "greasers" do.  Since I tried rice flour, I haven't gone back to wheat flour, cornmeal or semolina.  I buy it at my local grocery in the Bob's Red Mill section, which is actually in the "organic/health food" area.  It can also be mail ordered... from www.bobsredmill.com and I live close enough that an order placed early on a Monday arrives at my doorstep on that Wednesday!  I'm sold!

I have used JerryMac's recipe NUMEROUS times with great success, both his original "by feel" recipe and Peter's by weight.  Both were equally delicious!  Glad to hear it's working for you, too!

~sd
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: ELittle on June 02, 2008, 08:41:26 PM
So my second attempt at this recipe was a bit awkward. I had originally planned to do this the same as before, using the same day preperation guidelines. But i had something unexpected come up so I had to use a variation.

I used the 5 hour pre-fermentation method, then added the honey, salt, and the rest of the flour/IDY mixture and let it sit for 1.5 hours. Then I had to put the dough into the fridge for approx. 18 hours. I then took the dough out and let it sit at room temperature for 1.5 hours, then shaped the dough balls into 12" rounds that I let proof for another 1 hour. The recipe calls for using it as one dough ball, but I wanted to try splitting it in half to achieve a thinner crust. I'll have to say it was a bit too thin, and next time I will keep it as a single crust.

I also carmelized my onions and sauteed the mushrooms to cut down on the amount of liquid that would be produced since my oven really isnt hot enough to evaporate all of the liquid produced during cooking. This didnt work out so well and the mushrooms were still a bit too moist so I left them off the second pizza.

I preheated my stone for an hour at 550 degrees, and cooked each pizza for about 12 minutes or a little over. The first one with the jalapenos and mushrooms was a little too wet, but the second one turned out perfect. I like my pizzas well done if you cant tell from the pictures. :)

The last batch of this recipe I made was great. It had an awesome texture, a nice chew to the crust, and probably had the best flavor I have ever achieved in a homemade crust, especially for not incorporating any oil or fat into the dough mixture. This variation of the recipe was the same. It had a crispy and chewy crust and excellent flavor, but it was too thin for my taste.

I put a photo album on my photobucket site since I am not allowed to post links because I am a new member. It shows most of the stages of the pizza plus final result pictures. As you can tell, there is a lot of flour on the bottoms of the pizza because I ran out of rice flour. And a couple of the pictures are blurry or have too much flash. I hope you enjoy checking out my progress. Thanks for the killer recipe!

I guess I cant post pictures or hyperlinks? Anyone have any ideas? I have a photobucket album loaded with pictures from this but I can't post any of them. Thanks.
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on June 02, 2008, 08:55:45 PM
I guess I cant post pictures or hyperlinks? Anyone have any ideas? I have a photobucket album loaded with pictures from this but I can't post any of them. Thanks.

ELittle,

New members can use links in posts after five posts, which is what you now have. Try another post and see if that works.

Peter
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: ELittle on June 02, 2008, 08:58:19 PM
Here we go:  http://s73.photobucket.com/albums/i220/jpxnoonan/Pizza%20Trial%201/
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: ELittle on June 02, 2008, 08:58:43 PM
YAY! it works! ;D
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on June 02, 2008, 09:53:25 PM
ELittle,

Thanks for posting the link to the photos of your results. Once you resolve the thickness issue and prepare the dough as originally intended, I am sure you will be happy with the results.

If you want to make two 12" pizzas with the same crust characteristics as the original dough formulation I posted in the opening post in this thread, you may want to try this dough formulation:

Flour (100%):
Water (68%):
IDY (1.3575%):
Salt-Morton's Kosher (1.61763%):
Honey (4.71332%):
Total (175.68845%):
Single Ball:
362.27 g  |  12.78 oz | 0.8 lbs
246.35 g  |  8.69 oz | 0.54 lbs
4.92 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.63 tsp | 0.54 tbsp
5.86 g | 0.21 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.22 tsp | 0.41 tbsp
17.08 g | 0.6 oz | 0.04 lbs | 2.44 tsp | 0.81 tbsp
636.47 g | 22.45 oz | 1.4 lbs | TF = 0.0992532
318.24 g | 11.23 oz | 0.7 lbs
Note: The nominal thickness factor is 0.096738; the bowl residue compensation factor is 2.6%

To make the poolish, you would put all of the formula water, 8.69 oz., into the poolish bowl and then add an equal amount of the formula flour/IDY (8.69 oz.). As part of the final mix, you would add the remaining flour/IDY (plus the rest of the ingredients). The procedures are as described in the opening post. I would do the division of the dough batch into two dough balls right after the final mix. If you want an even thicker crust, it is easy to use the enhanced dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to enter whatever thickness factor you would like to try.

Peter
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: ELittle on June 02, 2008, 11:57:25 PM
Cool, thanks for the help.
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: ELittle on June 17, 2008, 06:26:11 PM
Just to let people know, I have made this recipe again 3 times, and each time it turns out great! Ive made the recalculated formula that Pete-zza posted for 2 pies and the original formula also, I love it. Im making it again tonight in fact :) I love it! Does anyone have any idea for a great thick crust recipe that is super chewy and not too "bready"? Once I find that I think my life may be complete :) I know there is a special area for thick crust also, but there is so many ideas I would gain 20 pounds before I found the perfect one!
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on June 17, 2008, 06:33:52 PM
ELittle,

Somehow, I get the impression that you liked the pizzas :-D.

As for a thick crust pizza, you might want to post your request for a recipe in another thread so that it gets better visibility than in this thread.

Peter
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: scott r on June 17, 2008, 06:41:56 PM
Does anyone have any idea for a great thick crust recipe that is super chewy and not too "bready"? Once I find that I think my life may be complete :)

Try high gluten flour and a long mix
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: foodblogger on June 19, 2008, 05:15:07 PM
This is more a question for Pete-zza: 

Do you think this dough would lend itself to an experiment with wild yeast?  I was thinking of a wild yeast preferment for ~18 hours or so.  If so, what would be your recommendations for the hydration % based on the results of your experiments so far?
Thanks in advance,
FB
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on June 19, 2008, 07:14:32 PM
foodblogger,

That's an interesting question. Generally speaking, I have discovered that the commercial yeast in just about any dough and for just about any pizza style can be replaced with a natural starter or preferment. I personally have done this with just about every pizza style but the American style (I simply have not gotten around to trying it with this style). However, the dough formulation I posted in the opening post in this thread is for a very high yeast dough that is intended to be made and used the same day. What you are proposing to do is to stretch out the process timewise by at least double--from about eight hours to 18 hours or more. I believe this can be done but it may depend on the condition of your starter/preferment and the amount you plan to use. To give you an example, suppose you decide to use an amount of a natural preferment that represents about 15% of the weight of the formula flour. This is a fairly typical number, and one that I have used many times before. Suppose also that your natural preferment is made up of equal weights of flour and water, the effect of which is to create a poolish (100% hydration) as was done with the dough formulation I posted in the opening post in this thread. Using the preferment dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html, the dough formulation for this set of conditions breaks down as follows:

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):
Water (69%):
Salt (1.61763%):
Total (170.61763%):

Preferment:
Flour:
Water:
Total:

Final Dough:
Flour:
Water:
Salt:
Preferment:
Total:

322.07 g  |  11.36 oz | 0.71 lbs
222.23 g  |  7.84 oz | 0.49 lbs
5.21 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.09 tsp | 0.36 tbsp
549.51 g | 19.38 oz | 1.21 lbs | TF = N/A
 
 
24.16 g | 0.85 oz | 0.05 lbs
24.16 g | 0.85 oz | 0.05 lbs
48.31 g | 1.7 oz | 0.11 lbs

 
297.92 g | 10.51 oz | 0.66 lbs
198.07 g | 6.99 oz | 0.44 lbs
5.21 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.09 tsp | 0.36 tbsp
48.31 g | 1.7 oz | 0.11 lbs
549.51 g | 19.38 oz | 1.21 lbs  | TF = N/A
Note: Bowl residue compensation = 2.5%

To create the above table, I used the dough weight of the original formulation and subtracted out the weight of the honey, which is not an ingredient that the preferment dough calculating tool is designed to work with (although it can work with sugar). I also used a hydration of 69%. This was a 1% increase from the original 68%, and was increased to compensate for likely losses of water (through evaporation) in the preferment over an 18-hour or longer period. This was simply a guess on my part, since the amount of actual water loss will depend on the temperature of the preferment during the prefermentation process. I also used a bowl residue compensation factor of 2.5% in the preferment dough calculating tool, to compensate for minor dough losses during preparation of the dough. I have discovered through experience that such dough losses tend to be higher for very wet mixtures of flour and water, as is the case with a poolish, for example.

To get the final dough weight, you would add in the weight of the honey (0.54 oz.) to the dough weight given in the above table. Doing this, the final dough weight comes to 19.92 oz. This should be enough dough to make a single 16" pizza. The honey would be added as part of the final mix, not as part of the natural preferment.

Of course, you can alter the numbers to suit your particular case. For example, your natural preferment may not be made up of equal weights of flour and water and, hence, may have not a hydration (defined here as the weight of the water divided by the weight of the flour in the preferment) of 100%. Also, you may decide that you want to use more or less than 15% of the weight of the formula flour, based on the activity level of your particular preferment and its other characteristics that are unique to your preferment. I have made and seen preferment levels as high as 40-45% of the formula flour. Whatever numbers you decide to use, the preferment dough calculating tool will produce the quantities of the ingredients to use based on your inputs to the tool. As noted above, you will have to handle the honey separately, as I did above, since the tool doesn't work with honey.

Peter
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Gags on July 11, 2008, 06:30:37 PM
Thank you for the great recipe, Peter!!

I just found this site and my first attempt following your recipe turned out better than I've ever done on my own in 10 years!! 

Thank you for bringing this SoCal resident back to the taste of my favorite hometown Pizzeria - Frank's Original Pizza on Middletown Road in the Bronx!!

I'm home again!!! - Thank you!!!

Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on July 11, 2008, 06:42:09 PM
Gags,

I'm glad to hear that the recipe turned out well for you. It is a tribute to the fine recipe that JerryMac created.

Peter
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Bistro on September 06, 2008, 04:47:36 PM
Keep up the good work JerryMac. Its obvious everyone loves the recipe I begged you to post...
Hope your doing well!!!
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on September 07, 2008, 05:50:50 PM
Keep up the good work JerryMac. Its obvious everyone loves the recipe I begged you to post...
Hope your doing well!!!

I believe that Bistro may have meant to post in JerryMac's original thread on his dough recipe, which can be found at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5851.0.html. I made a version of JerryMac's recipe that was slightly different than his and based on baker's percents so that the pizza can be made at any size. Either way, JerryMac has a good recipe.

Peter
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: DKM on September 07, 2008, 10:17:10 PM
I keep playing with it.  I'm getting closer.
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 17, 2008, 10:10:37 AM
Tom Lehmann recently briefly described a method at the PMQ Think Tank forum at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=38304#38304 for adapting a direct-method dough recipe to a “sponge” preferment format. I am certain that the suggestion to use this method was intended to be with respect to a low yeast dough recipe, but I wondered whether it would work for a dough formulation with a lot more yeast, such as the one originally given by JerryMac at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5851.0.html. As those who have tried JerryMac’s dough recipe know, Jerry Mac’s dough is made and used the same day. By contrast, Tom’s method would permit a period of cold fermentation of up to three days. It was that feature that intrigued me, especially in the context of using a lot of yeast (about 1.4% IDY) rather than the minuscule amounts usually used in the sponge preferment method.

I decided to try Tom’s sponge method without changing JerryMac’s basic recipe. In my case, I used the same version of JerryMac’s recipe as recited in the opening post of this thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6515.msg55855.html#msg55855. That dough formulation, for a 16” pizza, is this one:

King Arthur Bread Flour (100%):
Water (68%):
IDY (1.3575%):
Morton’s Kosher Salt (1.61763%):
Honey (4.71332%):
Total (175.68845%):
320.14 g  |  11.29 oz | 0.71 lbs
217.69 g  |  7.68 oz | 0.48 lbs
4.35 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.44 tsp | 0.48 tbsp
5.18 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.08 tsp | 0.36 tbsp
15.09 g | 0.53 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.16 tsp | 0.72 tbsp
562.45 g | 19.84 oz | 1.24 lbs | TF = 0.0986728
Note: The nominal thickness factor = 0.096738; the bowl compensation factor = 2%

As noted above, the flour I used was the King Arthur bread flour. It was sifted in preparation for using. Because of the anticipated wetness of the dough and its natural propensity to stick to things, I used a bowl residue compensation of 2%.

To prepare the sponge in line with Tom Lehmann’s instructions, I used 60% of the formula flour, one-half of the weight of the formula flour as water, and all of the yeast. The values of the sponge ingredients can be specified as follows:

Sponge Preferment:
King Arthur bread flour: 192.08 g. (6.78 oz.), (1 c. + ½ c. + 2 5/8 t.)
Water:160.07 g. (5.65 oz.), (1/2 c. + 2 T. + 2 ½ t.)
IDY: 4.35 g. (0.15 oz.), or 1.44 t. (a bit less than 1 ½ t.)
Note: The volume measurements given above for the sponge flour and water are measured out in accordance with the Textbook method as defined at Reply 21 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6576.msg56397.html#msg56397

To prepare the sponge, I combined the flour, water and IDY in the mixer bowl of my standard KitchenAid stand mixer, using the stir speed and the flat beater attachment. The water was at a temperature of 54 degrees F. The sponge ingredients were mixed for about 3 minutes. The resultant sponge had a hydration of 83.33% and it had a finished temperature of 71 degrees F. The sponge was allowed to ferment, covered by a sheet of plastic wrap, at a room temperature of about 81 degrees F, until the sponge peaked and then started to collapse (the break point). Normally, the peak and break points take several hours to occur but with the high amount of yeast, it took only three hours. The first photo below shows the sponge shortly after the break point occurred.

Once the break point was reached, I used the sponge with the remaining formula ingredients as part of the final mix. The final mix can be recited as follows:

Final Mix
Sponge Preferment as prepared above
Remaining flour: 128.056 g. (4.52 oz.) (1 c. + 1 1/2 t.)
Remaining water: 57.62 g. (1/2 c. + 2 t.)
Salt: 5.18 g. (0.18 oz.), or 1.08 t.
Honey: 15.09 g. (0.53 oz.), or 2.16 t.
Note: The volume measurements given above for the flour and water are measured out in accordance with the Textbook method, as above

Using the remaining formula water at about 47 degrees F (directly out of the refrigerator), all of the ingredients for the final mix were combined in the stand mixer at stir speed, using the flat beater attachment, until the dough mass gathered around the flat beater, about 2 minutes. I then replaced the flat beater attachment with the C-hook and kneaded at speed 2 for about 4 minutes. The finished dough weight was 551 g. (19.44 oz.), and the finished dough temperature was 77 degrees F. The dough was quite wet and pretty much without form but, using a bench knife and a lightly floured work surface, I formed the dough mass into a round ball. The dough was then put into a lightly oiled 1 ¾-qt. Pyrex glass bowl, covered with its plastic cover (with a small hole in the center for the release of gases), and put into the refrigerator. The dough remained in the refrigerator for just shy of two days. During its stay in the refrigerator, the dough rose quickly and even bumped up against the inside of the cover of the bowl (but did not push it off). When I removed the dough from the bowl, it was very soft, wet and gassy. So, to more fully develop the gluten structure, I re-kneaded the dough and let it warm up at room temperature for 2 hours. The second photo below shows the dough ball just after re-kneading.

To prepare the pizza, I shaped and stretched the dough to 16” and placed the skin onto a 16” pizza screen. Because of the high hydration of the dough, around 68%, I lightly sprayed the pizza screen in advance with a canola oil spray to minimize the likelihood of the skin sticking to the screen. As with my previous efforts with JerryMac’s dough recipe, the skin was highly extensible. However, I had no problems in getting the skin out to 16” and onto the pizza screen. Had I chosen to use a peel along with a stone capable of handling a 16” pizza, it is possible that I would have encountered sticking problems. Using parchment paper or member Jackitup’s skin management method depicted at http://s186.photobucket.com/albums/x41/Jackitup1/?=view&current=95f76c71.pbw95f76c71.pbw would have been possible workable alternatives. I used the 16” screen because my stone cannot itself accommodate a pizza size greater than 14”.

The skin was dressed to make a buffalo chicken pizza, which is one of my favorites. To do this, I first coated the stretched out skin with a layer of buttermilk Ranch dressing (Ken’s brand). I then added the following items in sequence: drizzles of Frank’s Red Hot Buffalo Wing Sauce; crumbled blue cheese; diced yellow onion (red onion is also a good choice); pieces of chicken that I had grilled in a grill pan and coated with more of the Frank’s Wing Sauce; shredded mozzarella cheese (low-moisture, part-skim); pieces of partially-cooked bacon; and more drizzles of the Frank’s Wing Sauce. I used about half the amount of mozzarella cheese that I would normally use on a 16” pizza.

The pizza was baked, on the screen, on the top-most oven rack position of my oven, at a temperature of about 525 degrees F, until the rim of the pizza expanded and started to turn light brown, about 4 minutes. I then shifted the pizza off of the screen (which was then removed from the oven) onto my pizza stone to get increased bottom crust browning, about another 3 minutes. The stone had been placed on the lowest oven rack position and preheated for about an hour at the above temperature. After the bottom of the crust of the pizza reached the desired color, I moved the pizza back to the top-most oven rack to get increased top crust browning, about 2 more minutes (I will have more to say about the color issue below).

The photos in the next post show the finished pizza. The pizza was excellent. It had a large rim that was open and airy and with several large bubbles (see the cross sectional view in the slice photo in the next post) and with a crunchy outer veneer. The rest of the crust was chewy and a bit crispy. The crust flavors were better than with a dough of similar age but prepared using the direct method.

The crust coloration was good but it took longer than usual to get the color to the desired level. I believe that the dough did not have the usual amount of residual sugar to contribute to normal crust coloration. I somewhat expected this because of the large amount of the sponge (about 70% of the total dough weight) and the large amount of yeast (almost 1.4%) that ends up using most of the sugars released by enzyme performance, leaving little fermentiscible sugar in the remaining flour. Anticipating this possibility, I had thought to add about 0.5-1% diastatic malt, by weight of total formula flour, to the dough as part of the final mix to get increased extraction of sugar. However, because of the use of about 4.7% honey, I thought that there might already be ample residual sugar to contribute to the final color of the crust. That turned out not to be quite the case, so if I were to use the sponge method again with JerryMac’s recipe, I personally would add some diastatic malt to see if the results are improved. For those interested in diastatic malt, it is sold by Bob's Red Mill (http://www.bobsredmill.com/product.php?productid=3529&cat=0&page=1).

I believe that perhaps the most valuable lesson to come out of my recent effort is that the sponge preferment method can be used with JerryMac’s recipe to extend the fermentation period beyond a single day, or part of a day, to at least two days. As made clear above, there is no need to change the ingredients or their quantities in any way. Only the preparation method would be changed.

Peter
EDIT: Corrected the amount of sponge flour.

EDIT (1/28/21): For a replacement for the above inoperative PMQ Think Tank link, see https://thinktank.pmq.com/t/can-you-give-me-a-biga-101-lesson/7869/3
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 17, 2008, 10:14:21 AM
And the finished pizza itself...

Peter
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: mkc on October 18, 2008, 11:02:30 PM
Pete,

Could you verify the weight of flour in the preferment - the flour is showing as the same as the amount of the original recipe instead of the 60% mentioned in the sponge preparation.  Maybe I'm misreading your post?

This looks like one I'd like to try so I want to get it right (since I've had good luck with the JerryMac recipe.

Thanks,

Michelle
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 18, 2008, 11:16:18 PM
Michelle,

I wish I could tell you that I put in the incorrect amount just to see who was paying attention. But it was simply an error, which I went back and corrected. Thank you for the keen eye. I hope you will let us know how you like the results if you decide to try the recipe.

Peter
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Mad_Ernie on October 20, 2008, 10:00:10 AM
Looks VERY nice, Peter! ;D

That is definitely a keeper recipe.   I'd like try that in a couple weeks when I get back from vacation. :chef:

-ME
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 20, 2008, 02:30:52 PM
ME,

Thank you.

I was hesitant to modify JerryMac's recipe but ordinarily I would use a more classic sponge preferment with a small amount of the total yeast and a considerably longer preferment period. The bulk of the yeast would be reserved for the final mix. Maybe one of these days I will try the more classic sponge method with JerryMac's recipe. But for the first try, I wanted to see if I could make the sponge method work without changing JerryMac's recipe too much.

Peter
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: candyman on October 20, 2008, 03:00:05 PM
DKM and Peter.... fantastic looking pizzas!!  I need to either figure out how to take better pics of my pies or get a better camera.  Looks like you could eat yours right off the screen. Yum.  I'm gonna give this recipe a try next week when I get out of the hospital and recoup.  Till then, still have 3 more dough balls to use up in next couple days.  Again, looks great and can't wait to try it.

Joe
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: mkc on October 20, 2008, 06:30:41 PM
I hope you will let us know how you like the results if you decide to try the recipe.

Peter

Will do - it's "in plan" for next week. 

I'm always in awe of the fantastic oven spring you get on the rims of your pizzas and the flavor from the standard JerryMac recipe has been the best I've had so far.

I usually do a 14" pizza on the stone in my Big Green Egg although I do have a large rectangular stone that lives in my regular oven as well.  I prefer the Egg because the home Monogram ZET2 oven has a hidden lower element, and doesn't seem to do as good a job on pizzas as my previous home's exposed-element Dacor oven.  Plus it's fun to cook pizza outside.   :)

Once our DFW area weather (we're in Denton) gets cold enough, though, I might try your method of changing placement throughout the cook in the regular oven to see if I can improve its pizza performance.  That would also let me do a full 16" pie since that's the size of screens I have.

Michelle
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 20, 2008, 06:46:47 PM
Michelle,

With JerryMac's recipe, it is largely the combination of high hydration and a lot of yeast that is responsible for the oven spring. The high extensibility of the dough will also let you make a bigger rim if you want. Actually, the original pizza I wrote about in this thread had an even greater oven spring than the recent one. Technically, a NY style pizza does not have a large rim. I found that with JerryMac's recipe it is hard to get a small rim.

The crust of the most recent pizza was like a baguette, which shouldn't be surprising since sponge preferments are commonly used to make baguette dough. The crust of the original pizza was softer.

If you want to make a 14" pizza for your BGE, it is easy enough to change the dough formulation I posted for the 16" size, although it will be necessary to alter the quantities of ingredients to go into the sponge and into the final mix. If you need help with this, let me know.

Peter
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: bolabola on October 20, 2008, 07:17:27 PM
ELittle, can I come to your house for dinner ;D
that pork tenderloin looks amazing..

I'm going to have to give this dough a try Peter..Thanks
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: mkc on October 21, 2008, 10:35:32 AM

If you want to make a 14" pizza for your BGE, it is easy enough to change the dough formulation I posted for the 16" size, although it will be necessary to alter the quantities of ingredients to go into the sponge and into the final mix. If you need help with this, let me know.

Peter

Thanks for the offer, Pete.  I modify recipes between the 16" screen, 14" BGE, and 12" RV pizza pan all the time (and I'm an engineer), so I'm pretty good with Pie R Squared  ;) 

Michelle
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: mkc on November 15, 2008, 08:09:13 PM
Michelle,

I hope you will let us know how you like the results if you decide to try the recipe.

Peter

This week (yesterday) I finally got around to trying Pete's cold rise version of the Jerry Mac recipe (last week was a Chicago-style deep dish).  I used KABF and made a 14" pizza.  3 hours on the sponge preferment, a little over 48 hours in the fridge.

I also found that it benefited from being kneaded briefly when finally taken out of the fridge to assist in shaping after a 2 hour warm up.

After the 2 hours, I shaped it on my Silicone Zone pizza mat, I let it rest 20 minutes so that the rim wouldn't pull back too much.  I dressed the dough lightly with a mixture of minced garlic (3 cloves) and 1 Tablespoon of olive oil that was simmered until the garlic just started to color.  I do the oil ahead and let it cool so I can smear it on the dough with my fingers.  I then seasoned with a little fresh-ground black pepper and a sprinkling of kosher salt.  Sauce was Mario Batali's Basic Tomato Sauce.  Toppings were Central Market fresh mozzarella, fresh basil, sliced pepperoni, sliced pepperocini, and a dusting of parmeggiano reggiano (our standard pizza).

Since it was cool and windy here, this was done in the oven rather than the Big Green Egg, at 500 F.  My pizza stone was on the middle rack.  I used "bake" rather than "convection", since I find that works best in my Monogram oven.  This was the first time I've done pizza on the middle rack rather than the bottom one; I'd last baked some artisan bread and had forgotten to move the stone before preheating.  I started with the pizza on the silicone mat, but pulled the mat out from under the pizza after a few minutes so there could be direct contact with the stone.

Fabulous flavor, browning, and crispness!  Oh, and great oven spring - my best rim yet!  This one is a keeper and will be made as long as I remember "hey, it's Wednesday - time to make the dough" for our weekly Friday pizza.  And I will definitely leave the stone in the middle rack position.

Oh, and after I pulled the pizza and shut off the oven, I put a loaf of proofed artisan bread (deli rye from "Artisan Bread in 5 Minutes a Day") on the preheated stone and a pan of boiling water on the top rack.  Shut the door and set the timer for 40 minutes and now we have a fabulous loaf of "residual heat, low carbon footprint" artisan bread for the weekend's enjoyment.

Michelle
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on November 15, 2008, 08:45:14 PM
Michelle,

I'm glad to see that you liked the "sponge"/cold ferment version of JerryMac's recipe. I've had a lot of fun and have learned a lot about commercial yeast preferments playing around with Jerry's fine recipe. I think it takes me longer to write up and take photos of what I have done than to actually make the pizza :-D.

Peter
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Mad_Ernie on November 17, 2008, 11:25:36 AM
This week (yesterday) I finally got around to trying Pete's cold rise version of the Jerry Mac recipe (last week was a Chicago-style deep dish).  I used KABF and made a 14" pizza.  3 hours on the sponge preferment, a little over 48 hours in the fridge.

I also found that it benefited from being kneaded briefly when finally taken out of the fridge to assist in shaping after a 2 hour warm up.

After the 2 hours, I shaped it on my Silicone Zone pizza mat, I let it rest 20 minutes so that the rim wouldn't pull back too much.  I dressed the dough lightly with a mixture of minced garlic (3 cloves) and 1 Tablespoon of olive oil that was simmered until the garlic just started to color.  I do the oil ahead and let it cool so I can smear it on the dough with my fingers.  I then seasoned with a little fresh-ground black pepper and a sprinkling of kosher salt.  Sauce was Mario Batali's Basic Tomato Sauce.  Toppings were Central Market fresh mozzarella, fresh basil, sliced pepperoni, sliced pepperocini, and a dusting of parmeggiano reggiano (our standard pizza).

Since it was cool and windy here, this was done in the oven rather than the Big Green Egg, at 500 F.  My pizza stone was on the middle rack.  I used "bake" rather than "convection", since I find that works best in my Monogram oven.  This was the first time I've done pizza on the middle rack rather than the bottom one; I'd last baked some artisan bread and had forgotten to move the stone before preheating.  I started with the pizza on the silicone mat, but pulled the mat out from under the pizza after a few minutes so there could be direct contact with the stone.

Fabulous flavor, browning, and crispness!  Oh, and great oven spring - my best rim yet!  This one is a keeper and will be made as long as I remember "hey, it's Wednesday - time to make the dough" for our weekly Friday pizza.  And I will definitely leave the stone in the middle rack position.

Michelle

Oddly enough, I also finally got around to trying Peter's cold-rise JerryMac recipe this past weekend.  I followed the instructions Peter gave, except to mix the ingredients, I used a Cuisinart food processor (a new toy I just bought and have been itching to try out).  The initial dough rise was 3 hours, as Peter had done.  I noticed a fair amount of expansion but maybe not quite a doubling of the volume.  I then added the remaining amount of ingredients, placed the dough ball in an oiled bowl, covered with plastic wrap and placed in the refrigerator.  I left the dough in the frig for about 14 hours. 

Upon removing the dough, it appeared to have more than doubled in size with a couple large gas bubbles, but had not pushed off the plastic wrap cover.  I briefling kneaded the dough with folding about 3 times and laid the dough ball back into the bowl, recovered.  I let the dough rise at room temperature for about 2.5 hours.  The dough had risen again with more air bubbles (quite gassy as Peter described).  At this point, I decided the dough I had would make 1 very large pizza or 2 small pizzas, so I split the dough ball and made 2 pizzas of about 11" each, also using a silicone mat like Michelle did.

They both came out fine.  Plenty of spring, as Michelle has noted.  Pictures and more details on the finished product will come later.  Like Peter, I am not as quick on the picture thing as I am on making pizza. ;) 

Overall, I'd say it was definitely a winner. :pizza:  :D

-ME
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on November 17, 2008, 12:05:45 PM
ME,

I'd love to see some photos of your pizzas, even if only for comparison purposes.

It was interesting to learn that you were able to use a food processor to make the dough, given its high hydration. Did you make the sponge in the food processor and finish the dough (the "final mix") in the processor also? I would have thought that the food processor would have a hard time kneading such a very high hydration dough without gumming up the works by having the dough seep under the blade and rendering the blade immobile. I wondered whether you added more flour to the food processor to get a workable dough. If you were able to avoid adding more flour to the processor bowl, that suggests that one may be able to make a hand-kneaded version of the dough, and possibly a bread machine version also.

The key point to keep in mind about the sponge, as with a poolish, is the break point. That is the point where the sponge starts to collapse after peaking. At the time of peaking, the top of the dough will usually be convex (like an upside down "U") with a lot of bubbles. When the sponge breaks, the surface becomes concave (like a right side up "U") and wrinkled. It will be obvious, especially if a lot of yeast is used, as is the case with Jerry's recipe. I have read that you don't have to immediately use the sponge at the moment it breaks, but one shouldn't delay such use for too long. I have waited an hour after the break point and found that it worked fine. All else being equal, the time it takes to reach the break point will be determined principally by the room temperature. It will happen sooner with a "summer time" sponge than with a "winter time" sponge. So, it is a good idea to allow enough time for the sponge to reach the break point before proceeding to the final mix.

Peter
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: mkc on November 17, 2008, 12:42:40 PM
I think it takes me longer to write up and take photos of what I have done than to actually make the pizza :-D.

Peter

Well, I for one (and I'm sure there are many others) are very grateful for the time and effort you put into translating your experiments and observations into text and photos.  Even though I've been making my own pizza for over 15 years, I learn something from each of your posts and they help me keep raising the bar on what I can achieve with my pizzas.  It helps especially (IIRC) that you're also from the Metroplex area, so we share some of the same climate, water chemistry, and ingredient availability.

Michelle
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on November 17, 2008, 01:21:17 PM
Michele,

Thank you for the kind words.

We don't get a lot of feedback on the forum so it is hard to say whether I have raised the bar or lowered it, or simply scared people away. In some respects, I think the dough calculating tools and November's tools have helped lower the bar by freeing people from being locked into the constraints of recipes, pizza sizes, styles, etc. I have been impressed by how quickly some members have been able to use the tools to do their own recipe modification and to come up with new and original formulations. Unfortunately, too many such people leave the forum once they have succeeded.

Peter
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Mad_Ernie on November 17, 2008, 01:38:58 PM
ME,

I'd love to see some photos of your pizzas, even if only for comparison purposes.

It was interesting to learn that you were able to use a food processor to make the dough, given its high hydration. Did you make the sponge in the food processor and finish the dough (the "final mix") in the processor also? I would have thought that the food processor would have a hard time kneading such a very high hydration dough without gumming up the works by having the dough seep under the blade and rendering the blade immobile. I wondered whether you added more flour to the food processor to get a workable dough. If you were able to avoid adding more flour to the processor bowl, that suggests that one may be able to make a hand-kneaded version of the dough, and possibly a bread machine version also.

The key point to keep in mind about the sponge, as with a poolish, is the break point. That is the point where the sponge starts to collapse after peaking. At the time of peaking, the top of the dough will usually be convex (like an upside down "U") with a lot of bubbles. When the sponge breaks, the surface becomes concave (like a right side up "U") and wrinkled. It will be obvious, especially if a lot of yeast is used, as is the case with Jerry's recipe. I have read that you don't have to immediately use the sponge at the moment it breaks, but one shouldn't delay such use for too long. I have waited an hour after the break point and found that it worked fine. All else being equal, the time it takes to reach the break point will be determined principally by the room temperature. It will happen sooner with a "summer time" sponge than with a "winter time" sponge. So, it is a good idea to allow enough time for the sponge to reach the break point before proceeding to the final mix.

Peter

Peter,

As soon as I can get my wife to download the photos to the computer, I'll post them.

The food processor was my own twist on the cold rise JerryMac recipe.  I did indeed make the sponge in the processor and added the final mix in there, as well.  As you said, I did notice some hanging up of the food processor after adding the remaining ingredients, but I simply stopped-started the machine and it got the job done.  Consequently, my sponge looked different that what you described and the picture you posted.  I did not take a picture of the sponge, only of the final product(s).  I did not try to let it knead for 3 minutes.  It was more like half that time.  I am wondering if I had added, say a few more tablespoons of bread flour, if it would have made it easier on the Cuisinart. 

The model of food processor I bought and used is this one:

http://www.amazon.com/Cuisinart-DLC-2011BCN-Processor-Brushed-Chrome/dp/B00004WKI1/?tag=pizzamaking-20 (http://www.amazon.com/Cuisinart-DLC-2011BCN-Processor-Brushed-Chrome/dp/B00004WKI1/?tag=pizzamaking-20)

Cuisinart also makes a 14-cup model, which may be the only volume they produce in this model now.  I bought mine at Bed Bath & Beyond.  It comes with a dough blade and function.  My original reason for buying one (besides needing a larger food processor) was to use it in making the Round Table pizza clone dough, but since I have been wanting to try this recipe since you posted it, I thought I'd try it and see if the machine would work and cut the mustard (or dough in this case).

Thanks for the info on the break time.   :chef:

-ME
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Mad_Ernie on November 24, 2008, 09:56:33 AM
Here are the photos of my Pete-zza modified JerryMac recipe from November 15th.  Refer to my post up above for my previous comments.  Notice the expansion and gas bubbles after the refrigerated rise. 

I had a couple more close ups of the crust-spring, but they were too blurry to post.  I must have either used a bad setting on our camera or got too close. 

All-in-all, an experiment that came out quite well.  I will probably use again, but in the meantime I like to try different recipes.  I'll probably go back to trying my Round Table clone this next weekend after all of the turkey. ;D

Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Mad_Ernie on November 24, 2008, 09:59:34 AM
... and some more photos from the same experiment.  I used Italian sausage, mushrooms, and tomatoes on the first pizza with a tangier sauce and the second pizza used a milder sauce with just the sausage and mushrooms.  The cheese was a standard mix of mozz, provolone, and cheddar, only I upped the amount of prov and cheddar for these pies.

I am inclined to agree with Peter regarding the dough in that I think this could be hand-kneaded as opposed to a mixer or food processor, although I think it would take someone with experience due mainly to the consistency of the dough.

Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on November 24, 2008, 04:41:47 PM
ME,

Thank you for posting the photos. I did not experience anywhere near the activity that your dough did. As previously reported, in my case the dough pushed up against the lid of my container but it was a gentle push with no signs of large bubbles or anything like that.

As I also previously noted, I think that the preferment method with so much yeast is hard on sugar creation (it depletes it quickly), making it difficult to get more color in the finished crust, even with a fair amount of added sugar (or honey or barley malt syrup). I think crust coloration might be improved by using considerably less yeast (and maybe a longer preferment time) if the dough is to be cold fermented.

Peter
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: mkc on November 28, 2008, 03:19:35 PM
ME,

Thank you for posting the photos. I did not experience anywhere near the activity that your dough did.

As I also previously noted, I think that the preferment method with so much yeast is hard on sugar creation, making it difficult to get more color in the finished crust, even with a fair amount of added sugar (or honey or barley malt syrup).


Pete,

I also haven't had quite the dough activity that Mad_Ernie did.  I've done 2 Pete-zaa Jerry-Mac recipes, and while airier and lighter after the cold rise, I didn't see the large air bubbles.  Of note, my fridge is 36-37 degrees and the dough is stored in my 3 qt. metal Kitchenaid mixer bowl.  Perhaps ME's fridge is warmer than that?

With my preheated 500 degree stone on "bake" in my oven, I get outstanding crust coloration, particularly on the bottom.  I do dust my silicon pizza mat with a little semolina flour first, and pull the mat out from under the pizza after I start to see the crust crisping away from the mat (just a few minutes).  I do also dress the top of the skin with the garlic olive oil I mentioned in my post, "brushing/smearing" in on with my fingers and covering the rim as well so the edge gets a nice speckling of dark.  I will try to get some photos of the next one (tonight) and try to get them posted.

Maybe I'll remember to photograph the residual-heat artisan bread, too.

Michelle
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: mkc on December 06, 2008, 04:25:26 PM
As promised, here are some photos (hope I do this right) of my second and third "Pete-zaa JerryMac NY Style":

First crust is pie 2, last photo is pie 2, pepperoni and pepperocini.

Second crust and third photo are pie 3, pepperoni and pickled red jalapenos

I hadn't photographed the first pie I made with this method. 
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: mkc on December 06, 2008, 04:33:28 PM
And here's the artisan rye bread I baked with the residual heat from pie 1

Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: LisaMT on January 10, 2009, 08:57:10 PM
Hi,

I am new to this site, I have been lurking for awhile and finally registered last weekend. Pizza is my first love (don't tell my husband  :-X).

My questions, I just made the poolish and realized after the fact that you used KA bread flour, I used KASL. will my pizza still work?

Thanks and love the site,
Lisa
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 10, 2009, 09:20:47 PM
My questions, I just made the poolish and realized after the fact that you used KA bread flour, I used KASL. will my pizza still work?


Lisa,

It should still work. Please let us know how things turn out.

Peter
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: LisaMT on January 11, 2009, 05:24:24 PM
Hi,

Just finished the pizza made with KASL; it turned out well. My only issue, the pizza lacked the crispiness of a NY pizza. I am pretty sure I know why. I baked the pizza on a 16" perforated disk in a 500 degree oven on a pizza stone. I think I should have baked it longer (I baked for 10min) or slipped it off the disk directly onto the stone for an additional 5 minutes.

One more issue, the dough tasted okay, but the crust had a dull look to it, not sure what can be done about that. All in all the dough stretched beautifully and my husband said it was delicious. Personally, I think I can do better :).
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on January 11, 2009, 07:11:28 PM
Lisa,

It is also possible that the high sugar content of the dough formulation, in the form of honey or barley malt syrup, is responsible for the tenderness and reduced crispness of the finished crust that you experienced. The classic NY style crust uses no sugar. The dough formulation you used calls for about 4.7%, which is a lot of sugar and will produce a softness in the finished crust because sugar is hygroscopic and attracts and retains water. You could leave the sugar out but if you do that you will perhaps not have enough residual sugar in the dough to contribute to decent crust coloration at the time of baking. A good part of the problem is that a high-hydration preferment like a poolish is a very active preferment and can can significantly deplete sugar levels, especially if the yeast level in the poolish is high, as it is in this case. To address that problem, you would have to consider adding diastatic malt to the dough formulation as part of the final mix. However, I suspect that one would also have to re-design the entire dough formulation and particularly the poolish part to really solve the sugar depletion problem. The diastatic malt alone may be inadequate.

As for the dullness of the finished crust, it would help if you could post photos to get a better idea as to what you mean. However, I will say that it is common for crusts that are based on using preferments to have a certain dullness to them, possibly because of low residual sugar (simple sugars) to be available for caramelization purposes and as part of the Maillard reaction during the baking process (for a discussion of the Maillard reaction, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maillard_reaction). You might consider brushing the unbaked rim with some olive oil to get increased crust coloration, and maybe a bit more sheen, because of the good heat transfer characteristics of the olive oil. You might also try using a water/sugar solution.

Peter
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: LisaMT on January 11, 2009, 07:25:01 PM
Thank you Peter for taking the time to analyze my pizza problems. I was thinking more about what I could have done wrong and your explanation confirms my suspicion. I did the 15 hour prefermentation followed by two rises; however, after the second rise I did not touch the dough for a good 3.5 hours (in total) which according to your explanation I may have depleted the sugar entirely.  I will try the recipe again next weekend and post pictures.

Thank you,
Lisa
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: WestCountry on January 21, 2009, 10:03:16 PM
Hi,

I used the recipe in the first post of this thread and it worked GREAT, dough handled really well!

Here are some details:
-I did not use honey or sugar (because I cooked at high heat in a 2Stone Inferno oven).
-I only used .5 tsp sea salt because I made a mistake on that measurement.
-I used KABF (King Arthur Bread Flour)
-Instead of one 16-inch pie, I made this into two 11-inch pies (263 grams each) with the same dough formulation. (Don’t ask me why my total was so far from Peter’s 565.75 grams, I have not figured that out yet…)

….The first pizza (pepperoni and fresh cilantro) was cooked when stone hit around 620 degrees.
 
….The second pie (pepperoni, red bell pepper, fresh garlic) was cooked when stone hit around 725 degrees.

Both were really good, but the second one was definitely better with the high temperature (cooked quicker, had more char on top and bottom and more crispy).

I also tried this recipe using the honey last week, and cooked it at the high heat (700-750 degrees), but it burned too much (I think because of the honey).

I highly recommend this recipe for a one-day dough, and I have had good success with it in the kitchen oven at 550 degrees and now at higher temperatures of 700-750 degrees.

Hope you enjoy the photos!

A big thanks to you all for support here in this forum, and especially Peter, Sourdough Girl and of course JerryMac.

Chris
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: sourdough girl on January 21, 2009, 10:11:14 PM
Chris,
Those pizzas look absolutely perfect!  Job well done!  Don't you just love the 2stone?

(You're making me HUNGRY!) 

Thanks for the thanks, it's appreciated... I defer to Peter and JerryMac who have done the real work on this recipe, IMHO.

~sd

Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: WestCountry on January 25, 2009, 11:01:16 PM
SD Girl-
Thanks for the nice feedback. Yes - the 2Stone is a lot of fun, and now I have great success with this recipe at both higher heat and medium heat ranges!

All,
Just thinking out loud here, since I like to experiment, I am thinking of trying this recipe with a 50%/50%  flour combination (e.g. KABF/Caputo 00, or maybe KABF/KASL), just to see the difference. If I do it, I will for sure post on how it turns out. Or if anyone has tried this, please let me know.

Thanks,
Chris


Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: ELittle on March 21, 2009, 08:29:24 PM
Im making another one tonight, did i meantion i love this recipe!  >:D
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: NY pizzastriver on April 21, 2009, 07:15:59 AM


Flour (100%):
Water (68%):
IDY (1.3575%):
Salt – Morton’s Kosher (1.61763%):
Honey (4.71332%):
Total (175.68845%):
322.02 g  |  11.36 oz | 0.71 lbs
218.97 g  |  7.72 oz | 0.48 lbs
4.37 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.45 tsp | 0.48 tbsp
5.21 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.09 tsp | 0.36 tbsp
15.18 g | 0.54 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.17 tsp | 0.72 tbsp
565.75 g | 19.96 oz | 1.25 lbs | TF = 0.0992532


To prepare the poolish, I started by combining all of the flour (sifted) with all of the IDY. I then put all of the formula water, 7.72 oz., into the mixer bowl of my basic KitchenAid stand mixer. Using the whisk attachment at stir speed, I then gradually added 7.72 ounces of the flour/IDY to the water in the mixer bowl. When all of the flour was incorporated into the water, I removed the whisk attachment.
Peter,
So I got some honey, so...

Just curious, and somewhere in the 2 threads and 12 pages of this recipe it's probably answered, Jerry initially had 45-50% flour in for poolish, and 50-55% remaining. You went with 67.9% for poolish and 32.1% for remaining. Just wondering why? Also, did anyone ever do a 12" version of this, with poolish and post ferment ingredients listed in grams/ ounces? If not don't trouble yourself doing so, I'll just make it as is and toss some to make up the 1-2" difference. My real q is the difference in poolish %.

Also you state "At the end of that time, the dough was punched down, reshaped, and allowed to proof for another 1 ½ hours." was that 1.5 hrs dusted and plastic wrap covered?

SD girl hounds me daily about how good this pizza is. "Did ya make Mac yet?!! How about today?! Gonna make it tomorrow?!" Ok not really, but she's a big fan, and it seems to be very popular. As this is a 1 day counter rise dough I'm going to try and hand knead a couple pies today and see what happens. It can be done! The more I hand knead the more I believe a strong arm, strong hands, and a metal or wooden spoon have just as much power as any mixer for small 2-3 ball batches, probably more actually, lol.
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on April 21, 2009, 11:01:24 AM
J,

Since I was converting JerryMac's recipe from volume measurements to weight measurements and also scaling the recipe for a different size pizza, I don't recall doing the calculations you mentioned. However, I believe the reason my numbers are not the same as JerryMac's is because I used a "true" poolish in a technical and classical sense, which entails combining equal weights of flour and water such that the hydration is 100%. In JerryMac's case, the weight of the water is more than the weight of the flour that goes into his "poolish-like" preferment such that the preferment has a hydration of over 100% (based on my conversion of the volume amounts of flour and water he uses for his preferment). I think using the classic poolish method makes the math easier, especially when scaling the recipe, because the weights of the formula water and the flour that go into the poolish are the same. Otherwise, you would have to do an apportionment calculation each time you scaled the recipe to a different size pizza.

As for your question about the second proof of the dough, it was also done in the covered Rubbermaid container. To be sure that that is clear, I amended the opening post in this thread.

For a 12" version of the dough formulation I posted in the opening post in this thread, I used the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to produce the following:

Flour (100%):
Water (68%):
IDY (1.3575%):
Salt-Morton's Kosher (1.61763%):
Honey (4.71332%):
Total (175.68845%):
181.84 g  |  6.41 oz | 0.4 lbs
123.65 g  |  4.36 oz | 0.27 lbs
2.47 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.82 tsp | 0.27 tbsp
2.94 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.61 tsp | 0.2 tbsp
8.57 g | 0.3 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.23 tsp | 0.41 tbsp
319.48 g | 11.27 oz | 0.7 lbs | TF = 0.0996401
Note: For a single 12" pizza; nominal thickness factor = 0.096738; bowl residue compensation = 3%

You will note that I used a bowl residue compensation of 3%. I selected that value since you will be making the dough by hand, where the dough losses tend to be higher than when using a machine.

Peter

Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: NY pizzastriver on April 21, 2009, 11:39:22 AM
Thanks very much Peter, I follow you now. Thus I have 123g room temp water, 123g sifted flour and 68% of .82 tsp IDY (.55tsp) whipped up and covered. (I don't trust my sifter with yeast)

Yes, it's definitely not very ''pool-like'' for a poolish, more of a ''batterish'' I'd say.

I used the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to produce the following:

Yes, I'm very glad you can use that, lol. I tried once and a big red error message came up saying "STOP! You don't know what you're doing! Please ask Peter before you break me!"
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on April 21, 2009, 01:37:16 PM
J,

LOL.

I hadn't mentioned it earlier, but another thing I did to simplify matters was to add all of the IDY to the flour at the outset. That throws the hydration numbers off a bit and represents a different apportionment of the IDY to the poolish and the rest of the ingredients than JerryMac uses but my approach makes sure that you don't forget to add yeast to the final mix or make other kinds of mistakes. With my approach, at the time of the final mix, you just add the remaining flour/IDY (the part not used for the poolish), the salt, and the honey (or malt syrup) to the poolish. This approach is transparent to any scaling effects so it doesn't matter what size pizza you are making. Of course, if you want to be true to JerryMac's method, you can apportion the IDY between the preferment and the rest of the formula ingredients in any way you want. In JerryMac's case, he puts half of the IDY in the preferment and the other half in the final mix.

Peter
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: sourdough girl on April 21, 2009, 03:44:54 PM


SD girl hounds me daily about how good this pizza is. "Did ya make Mac yet?!! How about today?! Gonna make it tomorrow?!" Ok not really, but she's a big fan, and it seems to be very popular. As this is a 1 day counter rise dough I'm going to try and hand knead a couple pies today and see what happens. It can be done! The more I hand knead the more I believe a strong arm, strong hands, and a metal or wooden spoon have just as much power as any mixer for small 2-3 ball batches, probably more actually, lol.

Jim,

Glad I "hounded" you enough to get you to try it!!  I'm sure, with your hand knead expertise, the dough will turn out just fine!  Can't wait to see pics of the results!  Tonight??  Huh? HUH?  Pics TONIGHT??   :-D

~sd
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: NY pizzastriver on April 21, 2009, 07:34:46 PM
Very Funny!  ;D

Ok, soooo it kneads by hand! It's sticky as can be, and loads of fun! I had to alter the recipe slightly to make it happen tonight, as I initially thought there was one 1.5 hr rise after the 5 hr rest. There's two. Achem.  Anyway, I did a 4 hr poolish rest. What was batter turned into a huge risen mass of bubbles! The 1st rise after forming was in container, for 1.5 hrs. The second I went back to Jerry's original way and covered dusted on board. After about 1:15 it was huge and looked ready to me. The dough was not as sticky as I feared, wet, but not too sticky. It was hard to stretch though as it flopped around a lot, so the middle wanted to go too thin. I worked it out and put it on a peel with light oil...and flour...and cornmeal. (just to be safe) Baked 4 mins, broiled last 2.

Review: This is a beautiful tasting pizza! So soft and light. Whole different scene from the Lehmann which is  crispier and tougher. The rim I did nothing to as far as oil, it browned like a champ, but not hard rimmed at all. I was shocked at how good it was, that poolish 4-5hr thing is just amazing. I was hesitant thinking 'honey in pizza?' My bad, it's sweet and sublime. Each bite I was more taken by it, truly. I also saw how in others pics this pizza had no char, instead a nice golden color. I thought it was maybe camera light, nope! It bakes gold, I'm talkin' goose who laid the golden pizza gold!

Hats off to Mac! (And thanks for Pete's help) Very good recipe. Shockingly good for a same day dough. It's insulting to even say that as it has no resemblance to any same day I ever tried. Love it, 4 stars. 

Pics for sd, and there's even a subliminal tribute to Mac himself, lol.
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: sourdough girl on April 21, 2009, 08:24:12 PM
Nicely done!!  Nice tribute to Jerry, too... he'd be tickled!
I guess my credibility just popped up a notch, eh?     ;D   Glad you loved it!

~sd
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: NY pizzastriver on April 21, 2009, 09:10:02 PM
Yes, not that it was ever low. lol. I always believe all you say, you were really right on this though, unlike the land in Florida and A.I.G. calls you sold me. The great pizza makes up for it all though.

 :)

Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: sourdough girl on April 21, 2009, 10:28:45 PM
Yes, not that it was ever low. lol. I always believe all you say, you were really right on this though, unlike the land in Florida and A.I.G. calls you sold me. The great pizza makes up for it all though.

 :)

pffffttttt.........  you are SUCH a kidder!  We could use a little more levity on these boards once in a while, so thanks for the chuckle.... and enjoy JerryMac's pizza!  It's even BETTER in a high-heat 2stone oven where it gets a little char!

~sd
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: JConk007 on April 22, 2009, 09:37:54 PM
SD.
Do I dare try this in the WFO say around 750? I am concerned with the honey? thoughts?
John
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: sourdough girl on April 22, 2009, 10:12:37 PM
SD.
Do I dare try this in the WFO say around 750? I am concerned with the honey? thoughts?
John

John,
When I make this dough for the 2stone (also at ~750) I leave out the honey.  I think that Jerry put the honey in for better browning at lower kitchen oven temps and so it's not necessary for high heat.  I hope you try this in your WFO and report back to us!

~sd
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: JerryMac on April 26, 2009, 12:10:43 AM
NY pizzastriver,

My God, Thank You, !!!!!!!!!!!   I'm blown away !!!!!!!!!!

I knew this dough was goood, but, again, Thank you !!!!!!!!   ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Mangia Molte Bene  :chef:
Jerry
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: NY pizzastriver on April 26, 2009, 10:52:41 AM
^ No thank you Jerry, great dough. Made another last night. I have made pizza like 3x this week, lol, but I'm leaving tomorrow on a trip and I'll be without my pizza for a week! I've been making all I can to hold me over. Once again, fabulous!

 :chef: :pizza:

Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Keith_Doughboy on May 05, 2009, 04:32:13 PM
Peter,

I am attempting this tonight, using the method in post #1. I mixed the poolish at 11:00 am PST. It is now 1:30 pm, so 2.5 hrs in. The poolish billowed up nicely, but has peaked and is now receding in the last 20 mins or so. Room temp is nearly 80 degrees (So. Cal hot and dry today). Do I wait the entire 5 hrs, or when do I know visually when the poolish is at its optimum prefermentation? Timewise to coordinate actual dinner, is there a 'range' to work with as it relates to the poolish, or the next steps? It'd be nice if there is a bit of flexibilty of anywhere from 30 mins or greater anywhere in the recipe phases. Thanks!

- Keith
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 05, 2009, 06:03:51 PM
Keith,

What you are referring to is the "break point". I discussed this facet at Reply 42 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6515.msg63782.html#msg63782. I would say that optimally you don't want to go too far beyond the break point but, as a practical matter, I believe that there is a reasonable window after the break point in which to use the poolish. It's hard to give specific values because of variations in room temperature from case to case. The risk is that there will be too much sugar depletion during the preferment stage, leaving too little residual sugar at the time of baking to provide good crust coloration. In your case, with such a high room temperature, you might temporarily put the poolish in the refrigerator if you are several hours away from using the poolish. That will slow down the prefermentation activity. Remember, also, that there are two fermentation periods after the poolish is incorporated into the final mix. So, you should do the math to have everything come together at the right time.

Please let us know how things turn out.

Peter
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Keith_Doughboy on May 06, 2009, 12:11:31 AM
All went according to the best of plans, but, in the end, really didn't care for it... it WAS good, but maybe not being raised on NY style left me a bit flat on opinion.

I didn't care for working with the dough very much. That probably says more about my inabilities and inexperience with pizza doughs more than it says about a recipe. I'm sure working with something that sticky takes more skill than I have atm. I did get it done, though it was a LOT of work. Based on the work involved, the time involved, and the lack of a finished product that blew me away, I'll be going back to New Faithful while I search for another one to experiment with.

Bottomline, it went as all the other posts described to a 'T' and it looked like all the posted pictures. It just wasn't my cup in the end. I enjoyed the back crust, and might make a very small batch of this for some dipping breadsticks. I did like the honey, it was just the right amount. I'm thinking about replacing the sugar in New Faithful with some honey. I'll get the texture I'm used to, and maybe a slightly sweeter taste. Who knows...?

Thanks for answering my post quick enough to save it from going to far past breaking point, Peter! The rises were all very robust, and excellent oven spring! You might want to put the info about the poolish breaking point in the original post, since it only refers to '5 hours' and the relevant 'visual' indicators aren't discussed until post #40-something.

Welp, back to recipe sleuthing!  :chef:

- Keith
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 06, 2009, 09:27:34 AM
Kevin,

It's not a crime not to love, or even like, any pizza. Hopefully, you learned something from the exercise.

I will revisit the opening post to see if there is a way of incorporating the break point issue into the instructions. When I started that post, I was trying to stick as closely as possible to JerryMac's script, which called for 4-5 hours of prefermentation without qualification. Also, JerryMac's "poolish" was somewhat unorthodox because it did not conform to the classic poolish that many baker's use and in which the break point is critical to achieving consistent results. So, even though I was cognizant of the break point issue, I wasn't trying to educate anyone on that matter. As you will see as you hang around the forum for a while, recipes and threads can take on lives of their own as members make their own changes, whether intentional or accidental. I eventually introduced the break point issue into the thread when I made a "sponge" preferment version of JerryMac's recipe, which I described at Reply 28 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6515.msg62814.html#msg62814.

If you like honey or sugar in your dough, you might consider Peter Reinhart's NY style dough recipe that is described in this thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8100.0.html. It is a fairly popular recipe even though I do not believe that it is nearly as authentic as other NY style recipes, which usually omit sugar and, in some cases, the oil.

Peter
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: NY pizzastriver on November 09, 2009, 10:53:54 AM
Peter! How ya been, lol. So what would this single ball be at 15". Sorry to be a p.i.a. today, but the good news is I only cook these 3 pizzas!

Flour (100%):181.84 g  |  6.41 oz | 0.4 lbs
Water (68%):123.65 g  |  4.36 oz | 0.27 lbs
IDY (1.3575%):2.47 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.82 tsp | 0.27 tbsp
Salt-Morton's Kosher (1.61763%):2.94 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.61 tsp | 0.2 tbsp
Honey (4.71332%):8.57 g | 0.3 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.23 tsp | 0.41 tbsp
Total (175.68845%):319.48 g | 11.27 oz | 0.7 lbs | TF = 0.0996401

Thanks a million!
J
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: JRo on November 09, 2009, 12:19:21 PM
Usually when I make pizza I go with the Camaldoli starter and the usual dough calculator route.  It's a several day process getting the starter re-activated, making dough to go in the fridge for a couple days, etc.  Last night was pizza night, and all week I hadn't got around to making dough, and about a month ago I dropped and killed my starter.

So what to do?  Searching for a one-day dough recipe I came across JerryMac's original volume measurement thread and decided to give that a try.  After wading through the endless sea of smileys   :) ;) :D  ;D >:( :(   I had a wet, sticky dough that smelled pretty good for a one-dayer.

They cooked up great (sorry no pics), and were very tasty.  I cooked them at about 550F instead of the usual 700F.  It wasn't "quite" as good as the usual method, I prefer it a touch crisper/chewier, and the starter/longer ferment definitely adds some additional taste, but these were excellent and MUCH less work than normal.

Hat's off Jerry.  An excellent pie without it having to be a weeklong endeavor.
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on November 09, 2009, 12:45:02 PM
So what would this single ball be at 15". Sorry to be a p.i.a. today, but the good news is I only cook these 3 pizzas!

Flour (100%):181.84 g  |  6.41 oz | 0.4 lbs
Water (68%):123.65 g  |  4.36 oz | 0.27 lbs
IDY (1.3575%):2.47 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.82 tsp | 0.27 tbsp
Salt-Morton's Kosher (1.61763%):2.94 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.61 tsp | 0.2 tbsp
Honey (4.71332%):8.57 g | 0.3 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.23 tsp | 0.41 tbsp
Total (175.68845%):319.48 g | 11.27 oz | 0.7 lbs | TF = 0.0996401

Jim,

This one is simple enough that I would like you to take the first stab at the dough formulation you requested. However, I will give you enough guidance to do it. This is what you should do, using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html:

1. Select the Thickness Factor option and enter a thickness factor of 0.096738.
2. Enter the number of dough balls you want to make and the shape of the pizzas.
3. Enter the desired pizza size (diameter).
4. Enter the baker's percents for the ingredients (other than for the flour) that you listed in Reply 78
5. Enter a bowl residue compensation of 2.6% (this should work pretty well for a high-hydration dough using your new stand mixer)

Let me know what you get and I will review your numbers.

Peter
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on November 09, 2009, 12:48:13 PM
Hat's off Jerry.  An excellent pie without it having to be a weeklong endeavor.

JRo,

I suspect that JerryMac might see your expression of gratitude in this thread, but to be sure you might also want to repeat it at the original JerryMac thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5851.0.html.

Peter
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: NY pizzastriver on November 09, 2009, 12:54:33 PM
Peter,

Ok all entered. I am waiting to see what to do next though as I see no "calculate", ''tabulate'', or "formulate" button. If I hit enter nothing happens, same as copy. So now what? So far I got this.

Flour (100%):    NaN g  |  NaN oz | NaN lbs
Water (68%):    NaN g  |  NaN oz | NaN lbs
IDY (1.3575%%):    NaN g | NaN oz | NaN lbs | NaN tsp | NaN tbsp
Salt (1.61763%):    NaN g | NaN oz | NaN lbs | NaN tsp | NaN tbsp
Honey (4.71332%):    NaN g | NaN oz | NaN lbs | NaN tsp | NaN tbsp
Total (NaN%):   NaN g | NaN oz | NaN lbs | TF = 0.0992532
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on November 09, 2009, 01:31:35 PM
Jim,

You made an entry error somewhere. For example, if you leave a box completely blank or if you use a comma by mistake instead of a decimal point, you will get the output you noted. I suggest that you double check all of your entries for correctness.

Peter
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: NY pizzastriver on November 09, 2009, 01:33:50 PM
Right you were! I had a % symbol in.

Ok for a 15" I get...

Flour (100%):    283.03 g  |  9.98 oz | 0.62 lbs
Water (68%):    192.46 g  |  6.79 oz | 0.42 lbs
IDY (1.3575%):    3.84 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.28 tsp | 0.43 tbsp
Salt (1.61763%):    4.58 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.82 tsp | 0.27 tbsp
Honey (4.71332%):    13.34 g | 0.47 oz | 0.03 lbs | 1.91 tsp | 0.64 tbsp
Total (175.68845%):   497.24 g | 17.54 oz | 1.1 lbs | TF = 0.0992532

ps JRo, right on. Best 8 hour pie I've found.
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on November 09, 2009, 01:49:51 PM
Jim,

You got it right.

Peter
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: NY pizzastriver on November 09, 2009, 01:51:27 PM
Thanks Peter, you da man!
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: torontonian on November 16, 2009, 05:48:18 PM
Peter,

I've started making this dough as per your original post in this thread.

However, after making the poolish, I figured I would make this dough tomorrow.

How would you suggest I modify it to add an overnight in the fridge?

The poolish is almost done its original 5 hours preferment. My thought was to mix in the remaining ingredients and just cover and chill the dough until tomorrow.

Or would you (or anyone) suggest a better way? For e.g. just follow the recipe as is, and refrigerate the dough after the 3 hours on the counter...

Thanks!

-- Josh
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on November 16, 2009, 06:13:15 PM
Josh,

Under the circumstances, and since all of the yeast is already in the poolish, I think I would finish off the dough and put it directly into the refrigerator. That should slow down the fermentation and hopefully produce an acceptable finished crust. Tomorrow, about 4 hours before you plan to use the dough to make a pizza, I would remove the dough from the refrigerator and let it temper (warm up) at room temperature. The extra hour of temper time should be sufficient to get the dough to a warm enough temperature to use to make the pizza.

Whatever you do, please let us know how things turn out.

Peter
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: torontonian on November 16, 2009, 06:19:42 PM
Thanks Peter. I will do that.

I will also point out that the poolish does not contain all of the IDY. The recipe (as I read it) asks to mix all of the flour and IDY, and then weigh out and equal amount of flour/IDY to the water to make the poolish. I have a little flour (premixed with IDY) sitting in a bowl ready to add after the preferment.

Again, at least how I read it.

-- Joah
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on November 16, 2009, 06:24:29 PM
Josh,

You are correct on the IDY. I recently created a poolish-based dough formulation for another member in another thread in which I divided the IDY into two parts instead of doing it the way I originally did it, and you are doing it. I would still proceed as I suggested and finished off the dough.

Peter
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: JerryMac on November 16, 2009, 09:04:10 PM
Wow  :-D We're from Diferent Planets  :-D

Mangia Bene  :chef:
Jerry
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: JerryMac on November 16, 2009, 10:09:14 PM
Pete,

Thanks for keepin it alive  :D :D

Even though we're from Different Worlds, I Love what you do  :-D :-D :-D :-D

Your Respecfull Friend  :chef:
Jerry
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on November 17, 2009, 08:09:46 AM
Jerry,

Thanks. The feeling is mutual.

Between the two of us, plus others who occasionally jump on board, we pretty much have all bases covered--you with your original recipe in volume measurements and me with my baker's percent versions :chef:.

Maybe you haven't seen it, but I recently used your basic poolish method to convert another member's dough formulation to an eight-hour poolish format, at Reply 184 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg82892.html#msg82892. You can see the finished pizza at Reply 194 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg83503.html#msg83503. Your technique has become a virus  :-D.

Peter
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: torontonian on November 17, 2009, 01:44:40 PM
Peter or Jerry,

I've just taken the dough out of the fridge, and boy did this dough rise overnight.

Per Peter's suggestion, I'm going to let it sit out now for 4 hours until I top and bake.

Would you still recommend I do the punch-down step about halfway through the wait?

Thx,
Josh
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on November 17, 2009, 02:51:48 PM
Peter or Jerry,

Would you still recommend I do the punch-down step about halfway through the wait?

Josh,

When I made my version of JerryMac's dough, I did not see any instructions on whether the dough was supposed to be punched down. The dough was pillowy and looked like it could take a punch down and rise again, so I punched it down. However, as you will see from Replies 124 and 125 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5851.msg74336.html#msg74336, JerryMac does not punch down the dough.

Peter
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: NY pizzastriver on November 18, 2009, 03:43:23 PM
Well if Jerry thought about different worlds before, this should qualify as a whole different universe. Inspired by Terry posting this link recently http://www.artisanbreadbaking.com/breads/poolish/poolish.htm (http://www.artisanbreadbaking.com/breads/poolish/poolish.htm) I tried option 3, overnight. I started with just flour and water for 40 mins, true autolyse. Then I added the yeast and let it sit out for about 45 mins, then covered and in fridge overnight. It didn't have the bursting bubbles you get with the stand out for 5 hrs, but it certainly had expanded. I left it out for an hour, more bubbles, and proceeded with standard formula. Very different, dare I say an improvement? It was the first mac pie that had an actual rim crunch, usually more chewy. The bottom got a good char, with a nice firmness and thinness.
I'm liking this overnight pre-ferm thing, but I wonder if 45 mins is really long enough before slowing/stopping the process by chilling it. The flavor was really nice though, I see the point based on that alone. Here's a couple pics, I'm also entering a different shot  in this months contest.

Peace all, and happy Thanksgiving.  :D
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on November 18, 2009, 04:02:43 PM
Jim,

Which specific dough formulation did you use and can you tell us the composition of the poolish and the additional ingredients used in the final mix?

Peter
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: NY pizzastriver on November 18, 2009, 05:29:36 PM
Peter,

The formula was  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6515.msg83233.html#msg83233 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6515.msg83233.html#msg83233) as seen above, 15". The next part of your question is actually a story in and of itself. I had the old 12" formula sheet out, forgetting about the 15" factor. So it started with 123g's water and flour for autolyse. Then I added .50tsp IDY, all as if making the 12". After 45 minutes I remembered I want to make the 15", so I added the other 69gs of water and flour, and another .25tsp yeast. Then it went into the fridge after maybe 5 more minutes.

So total was 192g flour and water, and .75tsp IDY, just not all at once. Today I added the remaining 90gs of flour, just over 1/2 tsp yeast to come close to .53tsp, and the rest as according to said formula.

Your thoughts?

By the way on wetter doughs like this I'm loving the new mixer, much easier, plus the grinder and shredder/slicer are a blast! Note my new crumbled cooked sausage and finely sliced onion and peppers.  :)
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on November 18, 2009, 05:48:18 PM
Jim,

Good job, including adapting the dough formulation to accommodate a combination of room-temperature and cold fermentation of the poolish. I especially wondered about the honey in light of your comment about getting more crunch on the rim. Honey is a highly hygroscopic material--more so than sugar--so it does become difficult to get a crispy and crunchy rim because the honey keeps more moisture in the dough.

Will we have to keep coming up with new ideas for you to try out to be sure that you stick around the forum :-D?

Peter
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: NY pizzastriver on November 18, 2009, 05:59:10 PM
Jim,

Good job, including adapting the dough formulation to accommodate a combination of room-temperature and cold fermentation of the poolish. I especially wondered about the honey in light of your comment about getting more crunch on the rim. Honey is a highly hygroscopic material--more so than sugar--so it does become difficult to get a crispy and crunchy rim because the honey keeps more moisture in the dough.

Will we have to keep coming up with new ideas for you to try out to be sure that you stick around the forum :-D?

Peter

Thanks for the compliment, and I'm not leaving, but it's nice you want me to stay.  :)

Interesting on the honey, never thought of that. Maybe the overnight poolish and autolyse helped? This had no chance to hit any breaks, like I said it really just grew slowly. The flavor and consistency were really nice though.

Yeah, new ideas, I agree. I have basically been messing with the same formulas, stretching GB's to 9 days, adding the above to this, but who knows what's next! I just hope I take home this month's prize for the "Autumn Harvest" contest, my entry is in and I could use that new Cadillac!

Wait, that might be Glengarry Glen Ross I'm thinking of...hmm.  ???



Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: torontonian on November 18, 2009, 06:59:58 PM
I thought I'd post back my experience with this dough.

The rise on the dough was huge, so I did indeed punch it down about 90 minutes before baking. It rose up again almost to full size within the last 90 minutes.

I apologize for not having any pics (need a new memory card for the camera), but the visual results were similar to some of the other pics - very airy. The chewiness and crust were spot on for me.

The only problem i had, was that there was a definite yeasty taste. I'm almost positive I had the yeast measurement correct, so I wonder if it was the overnight in the fridge that developed this flavour.

Any ideas?

Thanks for the recipe Jerry.
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on November 18, 2009, 07:30:39 PM
Josh,

I suspect that the "yeasty" flavor was a combination of the IDY, which is used in fairly large amount to begin with, and the increased fermentation byproducts that were produced because of the longer total fermentation time. Had you been able to use the preferment the same day, you would have had less in the way of fermentation byproducts. You still might have a "yeasty" flavor, which you may or may not like, but I think it would be less pronounced.

In the future, should you know in advance that you want to use cold fermentation of your dough, a logical approach would be to reduce the amount of yeast in the poolish while leaving the other variables (water temperature and fermentation temperature) the same as much as possible. Some experimentation with yeast levels may be necessary until you find the sweet spot for your purposes. That's a problem when using preferments. Their biochemistry is more complicated and it is more difficult to modify them with great precision and accuracy, especially if you change the fermentation regimen, as by going from room temperature to the refrigerator and back to room temperature. This requires good dough management.

Peter
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: torontonian on November 18, 2009, 10:16:34 PM
Thanks Peter. Agreed. The additional fermentation time probably did me in.

I really liked that recipe though. I will try it again either with the original spec, or one of the many successful variations.

Still learning!

-- Josh
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: IEatPizzaByThePie on November 19, 2009, 03:38:00 AM
This pizza looks great. A fluffy and airy crust is a normal characteristic of New York pizza, but this one looks even lighter and more airy than most. Is it because of the lack of oil?
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: NY pizzastriver on November 20, 2009, 10:30:27 PM
IEatPizzaByThePie, I'd say not really. In general oil softens the crust, yes, but the sugary honey would eradicate that omission I'd say. I also would say the overnight pre-ferm I did was the lightest and airiest I've seen. In general I see this pizza as a more bready type pie, great, but not ''NY light'' by any means. As we can see on Essen1s pizza project picks, the extra 100 degrees over 550 he achieves has a lot to do with getting what you speak of. I've never gotten it yet. You just can't in a home oven unless you're willing to lose insurance claims, in event of a fire, by cutting the oven latch.

That said yes it's a great pie! Still the best dough for same day usage I've had. 
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on November 21, 2009, 10:12:40 AM
I agree with Jim. I think the greater crust volume and height is due to the high hydration, the large amount of yeast and the availability of a lot of food for the yeast to use to create carbon dioxide to lift the dough to above average height. That "food" includes sugars in the honey that, in my experience, are usable more quickly and readily than ordinary table sugar. Also, everything is done at room temperature, where there is no restraint on the fermentation of the dough as would occur if the dough were placed in the refrigerator. I think the lack of oil in the dough also helps the dough to rise better.

In relation to the classic NY style pizzas baked in deck ovens or in higher temperature ovens, I would be somewhat surprised to learn that a NYC pizza operator would be using close to 5% sugar in any form. They would perhaps have to use pizza screens in their deck ovens and watch the bottom crust color development quite carefully. These matters aside, JerryMac's recipe does do a very good job for a dough that can be made in 8 hours from start to finish.

Peter
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: norma427 on November 21, 2009, 11:12:25 AM
NY pizzastriver,
Your pizza looks great.   :) It intrigues me about not using oil. I have read some about how the old pizza masters used no oil.  Your light and airy crust look amazing.
Norma
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: NY pizzastriver on November 21, 2009, 12:21:56 PM
Norma, thanks!  ;D Any praise from a pro is always nice to hear. And yes, no oil is pretty common in NY style. I've done the Lehmann both ways. At 550 I actually prefer some oil though as the slower bake time at 550 gives it too much chance to dry out and the oil aids in that issue. If I had your ovens I'd probably never use a drop!

Peter, I didn't want to take over Mike's thread continuing the poolish talk there, but I mentioned here I left mine out for an hour or so, then into fridge overnight. I only did this as the site I linked said 1/2 hr then in. What are your thoughts on going longer first, say 3 hrs? Do you think I cut the process short and it would get better with more pre-aging, so to speak?
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on November 21, 2009, 01:12:05 PM
Jim,

One of the purposes of using a preferment such as a poolish is to shorten the dough preparation time once the preferment is ready. Of course, the total time from the start of the poolish to the end of the final mix will be longer but professional bakers, who are the biggest users of preferments, routinely prepare their preferments and have them on hand at the time they are ready to make their doughs, so for them it shortens the rest of the dough preparation process.

I personally prefer to use a more or less classic poolish because its hydration is high (100%) and the prefermentation is faster as a result. I also prefer to get a fair amount of the formula flour in the poolish and have it participate in the process of forming organic acids and other byproducts of fermentation. It seems to me that if you going to carve out a small amount of the total dough formulation, which is basically the definition of a preferment, and make just a dinky amount of preferment out of it and don't give it enough time to develop all of the byproducts of prefermentation, then you give up many of the benefits of the preferment and may not get the desired degree of crust flavor, aroma and texture. Putting the preferment into the refrigerator is a common option although the classic poolish is prefermented at room temperature. Refrigeration will slow down the biochemical activity of the dough, including the yeast and the enzymes, and this result will be reflected in the final dough. Maybe it won't matter much, but you also might not see a break point. There are many ways to skin the cat and some methods will be better than others, so some experimentation will usually be needed to get the desired end results. Often, the results comport with the user's personal schedule rather than trying to optimize the process itself.

JerryMac's recipe uses a preferment that is even thinner than a poolish and he crams a lot of flour and a lot of yeast into it--far more than one would normally use for a classic poolish--but that is why his results turn out so well. He isn't trying to make a dough with a long useful life. Where people most often go wrong with preferments is to freelance or ignore the biochemistry of the preferment and try to get it to do things that were not programmed into it. Then, when the results are not as desired, they will often ask why the recipe didn't work.

Peter
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: james456 on December 15, 2009, 03:43:10 AM
Hi !

I've just registered after reading a lot of the content on this forum; this is an exceptional forum with enormous value!  :)

After seeing positive results from other members having tried this recipe, I'm giving it a shot. At the moment, my poolish is almost complete. However, I may not go ahead and make the pies today and thus is it possible to freeze the dough after the second fermentation is complete without any adverse affects? 

If so, can I place the dough in some cling film and put it straight into the freezer? I don't have any containers that can fit in my freezer compartments.
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: james456 on December 15, 2009, 06:18:31 AM
ok, after some more research I've decided against freezing the dough.

I'm a newbie to pizza making; I didn't realized how hydrated this dough would be, I can barely knead it without it sticking to my hands. It's certainly going to be challenging stretching it out.  :chef:


Will take and post some pics of the finished pie.
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: avidan on March 21, 2010, 05:01:24 AM
hey all,
ive been playing with wild sourdough starter in my pizza making, and the preferment you all described is making a huge difference.
since im using a wild yeast, my preferment times are a LOT longer (12-18 hours), but the output is amazing. i am having a big pizza party tomorrow, and with 30+ pies coming out of the oven, i hope i have some pictures to share!
the only variation i have made so far is to cut the honey in half since i am using a wood-fire oven (primavera) so i am getting a hot bake at about 750, and the browning happens anyway!
also, i am playing with a new yeast that i got from motorino in brooklyn, instead of just the italian yeast i got from sourdo.com
i will let everyone know how it plays out, but im optimistic.
-avidan
"debunking the Los Angeles water/pizza myth"
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: NY pizzastriver on March 21, 2010, 11:03:08 AM
Take pics! Everyone loves a pizza party!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geBJ5Qj4-G0
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on March 21, 2010, 11:28:57 AM
avidan,

I would also like to see your complete dough recipe, including detail on the amount and composition of your natural preferment. Some time ago, at the request of another member, I came up with a sample dough formulation using a natural preferment (a natural poolish) at Reply 22 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6515.msg58619.html#msg58619. Unfortunately, there was no feedback by anyone to prove (or disprove) the utility of the formulation. It looks like you have succeeded with a naturally leavened formulation. That is why I am interested in what you have been doing.

Peter
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: avidan on March 21, 2010, 05:49:12 PM
happy to share. i will try my best to get the exact measurements....but i must say, im not quite as "exacting" in my percentages as everyone here. I do use my scale, but since most of my mixing is done when i get home from friday/saturday festivities, i sometimes miss a gram or two  ::)
the big improvement on my preferment has actually been using a microwave! i microwave a mug of water for a minute, and then put the cup in the corner, and the whole bowl goes in overnight. its a wonderful warm moist environment for the yeast to develop. But be careful, don't turn on the microwave with the poolish in there, it will KILL your yeast.
in addition, i maintain my natural yeast in a 100% poolish, which made moving to your recipe so easy....
will post results this week.
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: avidan on April 09, 2010, 03:37:57 AM
i have been able to make this pizza using a wild starter and my brick oven.
i basically followed the process, and went with the following adjustment.
to get to a 65% hydration, i started with 60% water, 60% flour, 10% starter (which was fed the day before, and is maintained at 100% hydration)
this prefement sat for 12 hours! it was near peak, and i dropped in the remaining 35 of flour and other ingredients.
at this point, the bulk ferment and individual pie ferment was over 4 hours.
the crust didnt quite pop as much as what i have seen here with other yeasts, but we were very happy with the results. maybe i need to let the bulk ferment go even longer...

also, to note, i stopped using the honey, because the brick oven is getting hot enough for browning without it....and i am not a huge fan of sweet dough.
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: xiaobao12 on May 16, 2012, 03:08:43 PM
Hi Pete and all,

First post here. Thank you for your contributions to this community - this recipe was the first pizza recipe that I made a few months ago. Today, I made it again. It was very difficult at first - no pizza experience, very sticky dough, small disasters when sliding dough onto pizza stone, no pizza peel the first few times. The first time I made it, it tasted absolutely delicious. After that, it was always good. Today, it tasted very good. Also, the process went very smoothly today (no ripping of dough, nice round shape and smooth transitions to the peel and to the oven.

My dough had a slight yeasty taste sometimes and I am thinking that is because I prefermented for 11.5 hours - right?

My impression of the dough is that it is bready, while being airy. I made 3 toppings - one was pesto, one was marinara and one was a sausage tomato - all sauces were made from scratch. The one that tasted the best with this dough was the sausage one - it was thicker and matched the texture of the dough. The marinara one (SM tomatoes, garlic, evoo) was a little too light for the dough as was the pesto. I am thinking that I should try a different dough for those types of toppings? But I have no idea what types of doughs are out there.

Also, I wanted to ask Pete or anybody how you guys deal with the super sticky dough. I used plenty of flour today. The previous times, I had disasters transferring the dough to the peel (it was so soft and elastic). Today, I draped it over my arm and transferred it quickly onto the peel that had cornmeal on it. Is this the technique?

Lastly, what can I do about those huge bubbles? I opened the oven and tried to pop it during baking but it wouldn't pop.

Thanks so much.
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 16, 2012, 05:10:35 PM
xiaobao12,

My dough had a slight yeasty taste sometimes and I am thinking that is because I prefermented for 11.5 hours - right?

I would say that the yeasty taste was a combination of the taste of IDY and fermentation byproducts produced over a period of 11.5 hours. I estimate that about two-thirds of the IDY, or about 1%, went into the preferment.

Also, I wanted to ask Pete or anybody how you guys deal with the super sticky dough. I used plenty of flour today. The previous times, I had disasters transferring the dough to the peel (it was so soft and elastic). Today, I draped it over my arm and transferred it quickly onto the peel that had cornmeal on it. Is this the technique?

Lastly, what can I do about those huge bubbles? I opened the oven and tried to pop it during baking but it wouldn't pop.

Handling sticky doughs, and especially ones that are also highly extensible, comes with experience. My recollection is that I also draped one of my JerryMac skins over my arm in order to deposit it onto the peel. Another approach is to use parchment paper that is first placed on the peel and upon which the skin is deposited and then dressed. Parchment paper is always a good option for doughs like JerryMac's that are high in hydration. Some people might view parchment paper as a crutch but if you are using expensive cheeses and toppings that you don't want to lose in case the pizza doesn't make it onto the stone, then I will happily use the crutch.

I suspect the bubble problem you experienced is because of the combination of a lot of yeast and a high hydration. You would perhaps have to reconstruct JerryMac's recipe to reduce the occurrence of bubbles. Or you might use a lower oven temperature in order to reduce the oven spring and the size of the bubbles. Some people lust for large bubbles in their crusts so it isn't always a negative.

I'm glad that you are enjoying JerryMac's recipe and results. His recipe is one of the most popular on the forum.

Peter
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: xiaobao12 on May 16, 2012, 06:04:58 PM
Hi Peter,

Thanks for reply.

I did use the parchment paper trick a few times and it works. I am slightly prone to not using it as I wonder if it's OK to use parchment with such high oven temps? The print on my parchment paper box (from Costco) says to not exceed 4xx. Sorry I can't remember it right now. Anyhow, I'm sure it's fine.

Peter, do you use a rolling pin to roll out the dough? Or do you shape it by pulling it into a circle?

Thank you!
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 16, 2012, 06:40:34 PM
xiaobao12,

The type of parchment paper that you and I might purchase at the retail level is stated to be usable at temperatures of up to about 425-450 degrees F. However, what I usually do when using parchment paper is to remove it from the oven once the pizza sets up and is unlikely to expand any more. That is perhaps under 200 degrees F. However, I have made pizzas using parchment paper where I left the parchment paper in the oven the entire time. I did not detect any downside to having done that. We have even had some members who reuse the parchment paper. Typically, the part of the parchment paper under the pizza retains its basic color. The part outside of the pizza usually turns brown from the heat of the oven, and become brittle. I usually trim the parchment paper once the pizza is dressed so that most of the parchment paper is under the pizza.

The only time I use a rolling pin to roll out dough is where that is the prescribed method, for example, for cracker-style pizzas (including Chicago cracker style pizzas), the Chicago deep-dish style (such as Giordano's), and semi-cracker style pizzas such as Donatos, Monical's, Round Table and others of the same ilk. Otherwise, I form the skins by hand.

Peter
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: xiaobao12 on March 18, 2013, 06:02:30 PM
Hi everybody.

I made this dough again, using the measurements for the 12" that Peet-za posted somewhere.

I used all-purpose because I didn't have any bread flour. The dough was equally delicious.

My question is how do I deal with a dough that fights back? When I am trying to shape it, it is so springy and fights back. I let it rest for a few minutes but it continued to fight. I ended up with a thicker crust than desired. I also had to hold the dough vertically so that it would pull itself to lengthen (I would rotate it smoothly while it stretched). Problem is, when I laid it back down flat, it would shrink up.

I have attached a picture of the crust. As you can see, it's somewhat gummy. But after letting the pizza rest for 10 minutes, it aired up. I guess it's like cutting into fresh baked too soon (you need to let it cool). But there is no way I am going to wait to cut into a fresh pizza! Is there a solution to this? Is the gummyness due to too low of an oven temp? (Mine was 500 using a stone).

Thanks for your advice.

Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: xiaobao12 on April 05, 2013, 12:12:49 PM
?? Anybody? ;D
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Skee on April 05, 2013, 01:16:19 PM
How much time passed between balling the dough and opening?
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: xiaobao12 on April 05, 2013, 01:18:56 PM
Hi Skee,

I am an amateur so I don't understand balling and opening. ???

Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Chicago Bob on April 05, 2013, 02:14:24 PM
Hi Skee,

I am an amateur so I don't understand balling and opening. ???
Those 2 words should be added to the pizza glossary.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza_glossary.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza_glossary.html)

to ball: is just that, to form the dough into a ball which is then usually left to ferment, rise(frig or counter)

to open: this is what you do with the ball when you stretch it open to form a pizza.

snap back often is caused by reballing the dough and then not giving it a long enough rest/relax time before attempting to open it.  :)

most common gumline would be one stemming from too thick(T/F)a crust for the temperature of the bake

Bob
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: xiaobao12 on April 05, 2013, 02:34:22 PM
Thanks Bob.

So you are saying that it was too thick even though my oven was cranked at 500 with a stone for 1 hr prior to baking, right?

Time between balling and opening - 1.5 hrs as stated in the instructions by Peet-zza. In the fridge.....if it fights back, I should let it rest even more then, right?

Thanks guys.
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Chicago Bob on April 05, 2013, 02:52:27 PM
Thanks Bob.

So you are saying that it was too thick even though my oven was cranked at 500 with a stone for 1 hr prior to baking, right?

Time between balling and opening - 1.5 hrs as stated in the instructions by Peet-zza. In the fridge.....if it fights back, I should let it rest even more then, right?

Thanks guys.
If it fights back then , yes, let it rest more. How long did you mix the dough for...overmixing can also cause snapback.

I'm not sure I understand what all you did with this dough(workflow).  Was it fermented overnight? Used within 1 1/2 hr after making...I'm a 'lil confused.
btw, it should not have that gum that you referenced as being akin to cutting a fresh loaf of bread. Looks like the dough was too thick and didn't cook all the way that can definitely happen at 500 degrees xiaobao12 because the outside starts looking to done and that fools you into pulling to soon. I'll bet a min. or 2 more and that pie would have been fine. Takes a little practice.  ;)

Bob
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Skee on April 05, 2013, 04:20:39 PM
Time between balling and opening - 1.5 hrs as stated in the instructions by Peet-zza. In the fridge.....if it fights back, I should let it rest even more then, right?
Here are the instructions for balling and resting from the first post in this thread:

"The dough was then removed from the mixer bowl and placed on a lightly floured work surface, hand kneaded for about a minute, and shaped into a round ball. The dough was then put into a covered oiled container (a plastic Rubbermaid storage container) and allowed to ferment for 1 ½ hours. At the end of that time, the dough was punched down, reshaped, and allowed to proof for another 1 ½ hours (also in the covered Rubbermaid storage container)."

Note that there is no mention of putting the dough in the fridge after balling, the rest should be done at room temp.  Your cold rest followed by immediate shaping would explain why the dough was hard to work with.
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: xiaobao12 on April 05, 2013, 07:13:41 PM
Bob and skee,

Thanks so much for the replies.  It's very insightful.

I cannot remember if I put it in the fridge (I do that if it's going to be more than 1.5 hrs due to scheduling). I will be sure to pay attention next time and listen to the flour.  ;D

Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: xiaobao12 on October 12, 2013, 08:01:01 PM
Hi Pete,

I am going to try this recipe again. Do you think I can make the poolish and leave it to ferment overnight? I want to make the dough the next morning and have pizza for lunch.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 12, 2013, 08:37:54 PM
xiaobao12,

I did something like what you want to do and discussed the results in Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6515.msg56131.html#msg56131 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6515.msg56131.html#msg56131) . If you want to shorten the poolish hours, you will have to modify the amount of yeast. The way to do this is discussed in the poolish section of the article by Didier Rosada at  http://web.archive.org/web/20040814193817/cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm (http://web.archive.org/web/20040814193817/cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm) . In relying on the teachings of that article, you will have to convert from fresh yeast to dry yeast. Water temperature will also be important so that the poolish doesn't peak and recede while you are asleep.

Peter
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Chastx on November 18, 2013, 12:45:43 AM
To Pete & Jerry and everyone else that contributed to this thread:  THANK YOU!
Made this pizza today (only my second attempt making dough), and I've got to say it was really good.  In spite of the fact that I didn't have enough time for the whole 5 hour preferment, nor the second ferment, it was still quite aromatic, chewy, crisp on the bottom.  If my dough making doesn't improve past this, I'll die happy.
I will say that these "wet" doughs do take some skill getting off the peel.  I'm not a cornmeal fan...

My cook:  Pete's formulation for 2 x 12 inch pies, minus the honey; 3.5 hours counter-top @ 73 degrees room temp; preferment was easily double in size, with LOTS of bubbles (it actually may have peaked ); 1.5 hour ferment; then ball & go.  Big Green Egg @ 600, with stone surface @ 525.  Decent "leoparding" underneath, but not quite as brown on top as I hoped.  Cook time was about 4 - 5 minutes.  I left the second pie on too long, and it got a little dark...  Love & learn, right?  Next time, I'm bumping the heat up to 650 - 700 to see how it goes.
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Simple Man on February 17, 2014, 03:31:39 PM
Here's my attempt at Jerry Mac's NY Style using Pete-zaa's formula in post #1 of this thread. The procedure was followed exactly with the exception of using a bread machine to mix and knead the dough. Room temps were also identical to what Peter described with his experiment at about 67F.

I was very pleased with the results and I will definitely use this recipe again. It is one of the best results I have had using a same day dough. My only complaint was that I didn't quite get the oven spring I was looking for and that Peter and others have achieved. I attribute this more than likely to the fact that I used a pizza screen vs. cooking directly on a stone (my stone cracked recently). Pizza was cooked in a preheated 500-550F oven on the lowest rack position for 10 mins. and then moved to top rack under broiler for last 1 min.

Toppings were pepperoni, mushroom & onions. Cheese was Sargento whole milk mozz/provolone mix. Sauce was 6in1 tomatoes, Italian seasoning, garlic powder, salt.
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Toronto1984 on August 16, 2016, 09:17:21 PM
So say I wanted to use my culture purchased from Ed, would my percentage in yeast be different? If so, how much? Thank you.
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on August 17, 2016, 09:42:14 AM
So say I wanted to use my culture purchased from Ed, would my percentage in yeast be different? If so, how much? Thank you.
Toronto1984,

I personally never tried making a natural preferment version of JerryMac's dough since I was trying to stay pretty close to JerryMac's script. However, another member, foodblogger, asked a similar question at Reply 21 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6515.msg58617#msg58617, to which I responded in the following Reply 22. In the example I set forth in Reply 22, it presumed a use of a poolish preferment but a natural one using wild yeast rather than commercial yeast. In your case, if you intend to make a straight dough, and once you know the room temperature at which you will ferment your dough and also the period over which you want to ferment your dough, you might want to take a look at the sourdough starter quantity prediction chart at:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=22649.msg229864#msg229864

In your case, you may have to adjust the ingredient quantities based on the use of the sourdough quantity prediction chart. You can use the preferment dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment-calculator.html in the manner I described in Reply 22 for that purpose.

Peter

Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: gforgx on January 09, 2019, 05:42:49 PM
Today I tried following JerryMac's dough formulation with Pete-zza's baker's percents and I really liked the results.

My calculations were:

Flour (100%): 204.86 g  |  7.23 oz | 0.45 lbs
Water (70%): 143.41 g  |  5.06 oz | 0.32 lbs
IDY (1.3575%): 2.78 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.92 tsp | 0.31 tbsp
Salt (1.61763%): 3.31 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.69 tsp | 0.23 tbsp
Honey (4.71332%): 9.66 g | 0.34 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.38 tsp | 0.46 tbsp
Total (177.68845%): 364.02 g | 12.84 oz | 0.8 lbs | TF = 0.096738

All the mixing was done by hand. Actually I wouldn't say the dough by the end of the mixing was too wet, but perhaps I'm just used to 'watery' doughs because my oven only does 527F and therefore I have to use higher HR always. Anyway, it was really easy for me to open the ball into a 13" base. Also the honey I was using didn't have much water content so that may have had impact too.

I have already been experimenting with honey in my dough in the past, but back then I wasn't using pre-ferment and was refrigerating the ball for ~24 hours before using. Yesterday's result was somehow similar to my earlier attempts (good browning, etc.) but in general was definitely better. The crust was more airy and enjoyable for sure. Below are some photos.
Title: Re: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza
Post by: qrkid on April 04, 2021, 11:15:06 PM
I am pretty new here and to making pizza. Just trying different things to see what I like and can learn. I needed a one day "semi emergency" dough and I found JerryMac's that Pete-zza had so kindly converted into percentages and I went for it. I used the formula in post #1. I did lower the volumes but kept percentages because my baking stone can only accomadate a ~13in pie. My stand mixer is packed away as I am moving soon so I just mixed everything by hand. I let the poolish do its thing for about 4.75hrs at around 72deg.
My crappy rental apt electric oven claims to heat up to 525. I do not have a temp gun so not actually sure what temp I am baking at. Pre heated my Emille Henry stone for 1 hour and then put my somewhat interesting pie in. Cooked the pie for about 7-8min.
Crust came out great in my opinion. Bottom was crisp enough to hold all the toppings and sides rose well but was super tender to bite. For a one day recipe it also had pretty good flavor. I will be using this again.

This pie was tomato sauce, pecorino and mozz cheese, olives, capers, pickled chilli's, italian sausage and what topped after baking with fresh basil and lemon zest.