Pizza Making Forum

Pizza Making => New York Style => Topic started by: pvura on November 02, 2020, 10:15:32 PM

Title: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: pvura on November 02, 2020, 10:15:32 PM
Hey all! I was wondering if any of yall have cracked the code to making Joes pizza-ish at home. All i know about their recipe is that they use All Trumps flour (b and b) and im almost convinced that they do a same day dough but im not 100% sure about that. They might also use some semolina in their flour mix but not sure about that either. If anyone can tell me more about their hydration and oil percentage, that would be great. Im up for a basic discussion also :))

In terms of sauce, ive been told that the sauce is cooked and is a bit sweeter than normal, exactly what im looking for, so if anyone made a good version of a sauce that they can share the recipe for, that would be great.
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: RHawthorne on November 03, 2020, 12:38:57 PM
Hey all! I was wondering if any of yall have cracked the code to making Joes pizza-ish at home. All i know about their recipe is that they use All Trumps flour (b and b) and im almost convinced that they do a same day dough but im not 100% sure about that. They might also use some semolina in their flour mix but not sure about that either. If anyone can tell me more about their hydration and oil percentage, that would be great. Im up for a basic discussion also :))

In terms of sauce, ive been told that the sauce is cooked and is a bit sweeter than normal, exactly what im looking for, so if anyone made a good version of a sauce that they can share the recipe for, that would be great.
I can't help you on the dough recipe, but I was at their satellite location in Ann Arbor, MI a couple of weekends ago, and I glimpsed a can of Nina brand San Marzano tomatoes being opened, which can be bought at Costco. I highly doubt if their sauce is cooked, and it probably doesn't have too much added to it.
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: Andrew Bellucci on November 05, 2020, 09:20:21 PM
Hey all! I was wondering if any of yall have cracked the code to making Joes pizza-ish at home. All i know about their recipe is that they use All Trumps flour (b and b) and im almost convinced that they do a same day dough but im not 100% sure about that. They might also use some semolina in their flour mix but not sure about that either. If anyone can tell me more about their hydration and oil percentage, that would be great. Im up for a basic discussion also :))

In terms of sauce, ive been told that the sauce is cooked and is a bit sweeter than normal, exactly what im looking for, so if anyone made a good version of a sauce that they can share the recipe for, that would be great.

Well, you got the All Trumps part right...

Not same day dough.  Cold fermented for at least 12 hours and thrown out after 48.

100% All Trumps
57% Water
2.7% Salt
1.5% Sugar
0.5% Fresh Yeast


Pizza Sauce

It is Nina Tomatoes but not the same ones as the Nina's Costco.  Joe's uses D.O.P., Costco's is either San Marzano "style" or just not D.O.P.  I don't remember, but trust me - I verified that they were different about a year ago. 

Run the can through a hand food mill

Stir in sugar which is more or less 3T sugar = 28oz can

It's very basic.  What's great is the well-doneness that comes from baking at 625. And the cheese to sauce ration is great - it's like 3/4lb for 18" and a just full 8oz ladle of sauce.  Hard to duplicate that in most home ovens...



Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: parallei on November 05, 2020, 09:45:13 PM
Andrew,

Thanks for sharing so freely. I hope to make it to your new joint next year. 2020 was a bust, but in 2019 and 2018 I bracketed NYC with New Haven and New Jersey for pizza, respectively. This was while traveling from Colorado to fish for striped bass out on the east coast. Maybe late spring, or fall 2021, with luck!  Best to you.  Paul 
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: Andrew Bellucci on November 05, 2020, 10:06:37 PM
Thanks Paul!  I hope to see you sooner than later!!!
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: hammettjr on November 05, 2020, 10:37:14 PM
Well, you got the All Trumps part right...

....

Many thanks for this. I know the post asked for dough and sauce, but any more info about the mozz?

Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: scott r on November 05, 2020, 10:48:17 PM
grande part skim?
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: Andrew Bellucci on November 05, 2020, 10:54:53 PM
grande part skim?

You know it!
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: pvura on November 05, 2020, 10:56:08 PM
Well, you got the All Trumps part right...

Not same day dough.  Cold fermented for at least 12 hours and thrown out after 48.

100% All Trumps
57% Water
2.7% Salt
1.5% Sugar
0.5% Fresh Yeast


Pizza Sauce

It is Nina Tomatoes but not the same ones as the Nina's Costco.  Joe's uses D.O.P., Costco's is either San Marzano "style" or just not D.O.P.  I don't remember, but trust me - I verified that they were different about a year ago. 

Run the can through a hand food mill

Stir in sugar which is more or less 3T sugar = 28oz can

It's very basic.  What's great is the well-doneness that comes from baking at 625. And the cheese to sauce ration is great - it's like 3/4lb for 18" and a just full 8oz ladle of sauce.  Hard to duplicate that in most home ovens...

Thanks Andrew! Shocked to see someone who knows so much abt a pizzerias recipe who is notorious for hiding their secrets. Did u use to work at Joes? One question though: how does the joes slice crisp up so well and not tear when stretched if there is no oil in it?
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: Andrew Bellucci on November 05, 2020, 11:39:19 PM
Thanks Andrew! Shocked to see someone who knows so much abt a pizzerias recipe who is notorious for hiding their secrets. Did u use to work at Joes? One question though: how does the joes slice crisp up so well and not tear when stretched if there is no oil in it?

Joe's is not notorious for hiding their secrets.  About 20 years ago, a guy walked into Joe's and told the pizza guy he's give him $20,000 for the dough recipe and workflow.  The pizza guy told Joe what happened.  Joe told him:  take the $20,000!  And give him everything he wants.  Because he'll never be Joe's!!!

That's how they operate.  All of their recipes are posted on the walls.  Everyone knows how it works.  There are no secrets.  Joe's isn't a "recipe".  It's a well-developed brand that coupled a really great slice + incredible media exposure (Spiderman 2) into a beloved brand that can't be copied.

And yeah - I worked for Joe's.

I've known the Pozzuoli/Vitale family for a long time.  In 2017 they reached out to be as I was in Malaysia and they needed help with their first "franchise" in Shanghai, China.  I spent two months out there putting systems in place.

Last year they reached out again.  They were opening a shop in Ann Arbor, Michigan and wanted me to set up the front and my cousin set up the back.  We were out there until Spring Break when they shut down UM. 

I've personally made about 20,000 Joe's pies...

Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: Andrew Bellucci on November 06, 2020, 12:09:39 AM
Many thanks for this. I know the post asked for dough and sauce, but any more info about the mozz?

It's Grande Low Moisture Skim

The real trick is shredding the loaves on the Pelican.  Because if the cheese isn't grated correctly it melts totally differently and doesn't have that signature Joe's look.

That might be the hardest part, shredding the cheese and also placing the cheese on the pie.  That's really hard to do consistently.  We had some serious issues with this in Ann Arbor.  So much so that I would never work with shredded mozzarella again.  I am using sliced whole milk mozzarella as the base for my pie (sauce on top - always).  I feel this is the most consistent way to evenly distribute cheese on a pie.
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: pvura on November 06, 2020, 02:24:52 AM
Joe's is not notorious for hiding their secrets.  About 20 years ago, a guy walked into Joe's and told the pizza guy he's give him $20,000 for the dough recipe and workflow.  The pizza guy told Joe what happened.  Joe told him:  take the $20,000!  And give him everything he wants.  Because he'll never be Joe's!!!

That's how they operate.  All of their recipes are posted on the walls.  Everyone knows how it works.  There are no secrets.  Joe's isn't a "recipe".  It's a well-developed brand that coupled a really great slice + incredible media exposure (Spiderman 2) into a beloved brand that can't be copied.

And yeah - I worked for Joe's.

I've known the Pozzuoli/Vitale family for a long time.  In 2017 they reached out to be as I was in Malaysia and they needed help with their first "franchise" in Shanghai, China.  I spent two months out there putting systems in place.

Last year they reached out again.  They were opening a shop in Ann Arbor, Michigan and wanted me to set up the front and my cousin set up the back.  We were out there until Spring Break when they shut down UM. 

I've personally made about 20,000 Joe's pies...

Thanks for all the info and pics Andrew. May i ask how large the dough balls are? That is, how many grams of dough per pie? Thanks!
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: Andrew Bellucci on November 06, 2020, 09:22:35 AM
Thanks for all the info and pics Andrew. May i ask how large the dough balls are? That is, how many grams of dough per pie? Thanks!

1lb 6oz for 18"
1lb 9oz for 20"
2lbs for Sicilian
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: TXCraig1 on November 06, 2020, 09:43:13 AM
Andrew,

Thanks for sharing so freely. I hope to make it to your new joint next year. 2020 was a bust, but in 2019 and 2018 I bracketed NYC with New Haven and New Jersey for pizza, respectively. This was while traveling from Colorado to fish for striped bass out on the east coast. Maybe late spring, or fall 2021, with luck!  Best to you.  Paul

2021 sounds like a good year for another NYC Pizza Crawl. I'm in!
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: Georgev on November 07, 2020, 01:21:57 AM
1lb 6oz for 18"
1lb 9oz for 20"
2lbs for Sicilian

Andrew do they do a room temp ferment  for an hour or so in balls then put them in the tins to rest over night?
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: jkb on November 07, 2020, 08:43:26 AM
2021 sounds like a good year for another NYC Pizza Crawl. I'm in!


https://youtu.be/WoW_0NuaPj4
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: hammettjr on November 07, 2020, 10:43:59 AM
Andrew, can you shed any light on how the recipes may have changed over the years? There have been theories here on the forum (likely just folks guessing). For example, one guess was that the sauce had been more complex, then it was simplified to allow the customers to create their own flavors using the oregano/garlic/pepper shakers.

Also, you mentioned 625 bake temp - do you know what the typical stone temp is? (I'm not sure if it's much lower because pies are constantly being baked?)

Edit: I also wanted to comment that wow, 3 tablespoons of sugar per 28oz of tomato.

Separately, I'd propose to sticky this thread (maybe after it slows down). It's special.

Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: Andrew Bellucci on November 07, 2020, 11:01:52 AM
Andrew do they do a room temp ferment  for an hour or so in balls then put them in the tins to rest over night?

They do r/t before they go in the cooler. Depends on the ambient temp. Normally 1.5 hours or so.  On some of the colder days in Michigan the back room where the racks were for proofing dough, we'd leave them out for 4 hours or more.  That's the tricky part, calculating the rise. Some people in that shop couldn't grasp the concept and then the dough would be underproofed. For me the perfe t dough was when it was just touching the top of the tin over it.
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: Andrew Bellucci on November 07, 2020, 11:12:27 AM
Andrew, can you shed any light on how the recipes may have changed over the years? There have been theories here on the forum (likely just folks guessing). For example, one guess was that the sauce had been more complex, then it was simplified to allow the customers to create their own flavors using the oregano/garlic/pepper shakers.

Also, you mentioned 625 bake temp - do you know what the typical stone temp is? (I'm not sure if it's much lower because pies are constantly being baked?)

Edit: I also wanted to comment that wow, 3 tablespoons of sugar per 28oz of tomato.

Separately, I'd propose to sticky this thread. It's special.

I don't know of any changes - that's the whole Joe's mantra - it never changes, it's always exactly the same. 

That's mostly a good thing but to be very honest, the topping they use are crap.  Presliced Pepperoni, pre-cooked and sliced Italian Sausage, etc. They made a conscious decision that although there are better quality items available, it'll stay same as it ever was. 

I really like their plain slice but my go to is fresh mozz. And the Sicilian is great. I usually skip the toppings...
Maybe my calculation was off for the sugar because obviously Joe's doesn't f..k around with 28oz cans.  It's 3.5lbs of sugar for 3.5 cases of Nina's (21 #10 cans)

Every stone/oven runs different, the back corners are always the hottest and that's where I'd measure. The stones would get to 625.  That's why the pie is launched off a peel and then screened after a minute or so.  Sometimes two screens and I've used 3 on occasion. There's a 30 second window between the pie being perfectly well done and burned...
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: woodfiredandrew on November 07, 2020, 11:50:29 AM
They do r/t before they go in the cooler. Depends on the ambient temp. Normally 1.5 hours or so.  On some of the colder days in Michigan the back room where the racks were for proofing dough, we'd leave them out for 4 hours or more.  That's the tricky part, calculating the rise. Some people in that shop couldn't grasp the concept and then the dough would be underproofed. For me the perfe t dough was when it was just touching the top of the tin over it.

Andrew...In your opinion ,does it matter that once dough is balled it has to stay out for sometime, what if CF is 48 hours?
Thanks for sharing so generously ( i agree about the part that there is no secret) 
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: Andrew Bellucci on November 07, 2020, 12:38:48 PM
My opinion is no matter how long or short your CF is, that dough should always spend sometime at RT, at least an hour. Whether it's balled or bulk fermenting, I want to see it "move".  The only exception would be when it's very hot and humid. That's how it was in Malaysia and we always put the dough right into the fridge.
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: woodfiredandrew on November 07, 2020, 01:13:16 PM
I have to do the same , Houston is no different in middle of the summer
Thanks
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: hammettjr on November 07, 2020, 03:41:53 PM

...It's 3.5lbs of sugar for 3.5 cases of Nina's (21 #10 cans)


Wow that's a big batch of sauce!

My calculation is 5 teaspoons of sugar for a 28 oz can of tomato. Below is my calc, hopefully someone can double-check.
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: pvura on November 07, 2020, 04:06:33 PM
Wow that's a big batch of sauce!

My calculation is 5 teaspoons of sugar for a 28 oz can of tomato. Below is my calc, hopefully someone can double-check.

Thank you for this chart Matt!
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: RHawthorne on November 07, 2020, 05:01:49 PM
I don't know of any changes - that's the whole Joe's mantra - it never changes, it's always exactly the same. 

That's mostly a good thing but to be very honest, the topping they use are crap.  Presliced Pepperoni, pre-cooked and sliced Italian Sausage, etc. They made a conscious decision that although there are better quality items available, it'll stay same as it ever was. 

I really like their plain slice but my go to is fresh mozz. And the Sicilian is great. I usually skip the toppings...
Maybe my calculation was off for the sugar because obviously Joe's doesn't f..k around with 28oz cans.  It's 3.5lbs of sugar for 3.5 cases of Nina's (21 #10 cans)

Every stone/oven runs different, the back corners are always the hottest and that's where I'd measure. The stones would get to 625.  That's why the pie is launched off a peel and then screened after a minute or so.  Sometimes two screens and I've used 3 on occasion. There's a 30 second window between the pie being perfectly well done and burned...

I didn't want to say so, but that was the impression I came away with after eating at the Ann Arbor location. I got a Caprese slice, a supreme slice, and a Sicilian slice. The supreme was okay, but I thought the meats were pretty unimpressive, and I liked the Caprese slice a lot better overall. I'm glad I made the trek from Kalamazoo to eat there, though.
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: Andrew Bellucci on November 07, 2020, 05:05:36 PM
Wow that's a big batch of sauce!

My calculation is 5 teaspoons of sugar for a 28 oz can of tomato. Below is my calc, hopefully someone can double-check.

I was definitely off in my conversion! Thanks for doing that.

Yeah, it's always 21 cans, all hand-milled with a Tellier #3 into a huge pot that takes two guys to carry. And they use a big "oar" to mix in the sugar...
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: pvura on November 07, 2020, 05:25:49 PM
I was definitely off in my conversion! Thanks for doing that.

Yeah, it's always 21 cans, all hand-milled with a Tellier #3 into a huge pot that takes two guys to carry. And they use a big "oar" to mix in the sugar...

Hey andrew. Since the formulation does not have oil, how much would u suggest we add to help the dough brown in home ovens? Thanks!
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: Andrew Bellucci on November 07, 2020, 10:59:43 PM
Hey andrew. Since the formulation does not have oil, how much would u suggest we add to help the dough brown in home ovens? Thanks!

I have no idea!!!  I've never made pizza at home and never had occasion to use anything else besides a commercial pizza oven - and I've used every type there is.

Maybe someone else who's an expert at home ovens can give some good advice...
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: Roberto on November 08, 2020, 05:06:46 AM
Hi thank you so much for the recipe.
Hire its not possible to bay a All trumps , I have at my disposition theCaputo Americana and the caputo Manitoba.
I will try whit this flour.
Good day everybody
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: RHawthorne on November 08, 2020, 06:44:43 PM
Hey andrew. Since the formulation does not have oil, how much would u suggest we add to help the dough brown in home ovens? Thanks!
In my opinion, oil doesn't really do much of anything to help pizza crust brown. The recipe already has sugar in it, which should help do the trick. Just make sure you're operating at a temp of at least 500 degrees, and preferably as hot as your oven can get. There's no reason why you shouldn't get a nicely browned crust with that recipe as long as you're operating at a high temp and baking the pizza long enough.
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: quietdesperation on November 14, 2020, 10:53:39 AM
andrew,

I noticed Joe's recipe calls for fresh yeast. I was recently texting with chau and I believe he mentioned better flavor and texture with fresh yeast vs idy. It's an oft-debated subject here, I believe Tom L did some experiments at the AIB and concluded no real difference between fresh, idy and ady while some members have expressed a preference for fresh yeast.

Do you have an opinion on this?

btw, thanks for sharing the story of joe's recipe, there's a similar story in the bbq world: Mike Mills, a champion BBQer shared the recipe for his "magic dust", (a bbq rub) because he felt in the end, no one could precisely duplicate the rub without understanding which spices are ground, which are store bought and where he sources the ingredients.
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: foreplease on November 14, 2020, 11:17:04 AM
I was definitely off in my conversion! Thanks for doing that.

Yeah, it's always 21 cans, all hand-milled with a Tellier #3 into a huge pot that takes two guys to carry. And they use a big "oar" to mix in the sugar...
Plastic or wood?  :-D
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: Andrew Bellucci on November 14, 2020, 10:01:38 PM
Plastic or wood?  :-D

Dude!  You're 0-2!!!

Stainless steel of course...
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: Andrew Bellucci on November 14, 2020, 10:12:19 PM
andrew,

I noticed Joe's recipe calls for fresh yeast. I was recently texting with chau and I believe he mentioned better flavor and texture with fresh yeast vs idy. It's an oft-debated subject here, I believe Tom L did some experiments at the AIB and concluded no real difference between fresh, idy and ady while some members have expressed a preference for fresh yeast.

Do you have an opinion on this?

btw, thanks for sharing the story of joe's recipe, there's a similar story in the bbq world: Mike Mills, a champion BBQer shared the recipe for his "magic dust", (a bbq rub) because he felt in the end, no one could precisely duplicate the rub without understanding which spices are ground, which are store bought and where he sources the ingredients.

I'm not sure what my opinion is to be honest.

I used fresh yeast at Two Boots and Three of Cups before I opened Lombardi's - so that's what I went with - because that's what I knew.   That's old school New York.  I've had this discussion with Scarr (who says I showed him how to make pizza at Lombardi's, but honestly don't remember) and he swears by fresh yeast because it produces the flavor profile he grew up with.  In addition to Lombardi's, Scarr cut his teeth at Joe's - so maybe it's just going with what you're used to.

I'm leaning more towards IDY these days.  I prefer to sprinkle IDY in between layers of flour with the salt on top at the end.  With fresh yeast, I always "hand dissolved" the yeast into the water, then added salt (and then sugar and oil if that was part of the recipe). 

I've never done a blind side-by-side comparison.  Just guessing, I'd say there is no discernible difference. 
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: paris401 on November 19, 2020, 07:49:32 AM
some great tips... as there is no pizza that compares..

not having a pizza oven, one thing i have read is a piece of steel will conduct the home oven temp better then the ceramic stone i have been using...  any comments??
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: NYSliceUK on November 21, 2020, 09:49:16 AM
Hi Andrew. Thanks for the info. I knew you'd worked at Joe's and other places, so I've been stalking your posts for a while now and I've always found them informative. 😉

Does Joe's use any other type of cheese other than mozzarella? Thanks
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: Andrew Bellucci on November 21, 2020, 09:43:44 PM
Hi Andrew. Thanks for the info. I knew you'd worked at Joe's and other places, so I've been stalking your posts for a while now and I've always found them informative. 😉

Does Joe's use any other type of cheese other than mozzarella? Thanks

Hey NYSlice UK _ happy to help.  Joe's uses technically 3 cheeses:  Grande Low Moisture, part skim mozzarella - appx 3/4lb per 18" pizza.  Also uses Grande Ricotta for the white pizza and locally sourced fresh mozzarella loaf - sliced in house - for the fresh mozzarella and caprese pies.  They don't use any hard/grated cheese - not even for customers to shake onto slices post-bake.
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: Andrew Bellucci on November 21, 2020, 09:46:41 PM
some great tips... as there is no pizza that compares..

not having a pizza oven, one thing i have read is a piece of steel will conduct the home oven temp better then the ceramic stone i have been using...  any comments??

I've never made pizza in a home oven.  I know there are many different "hacks" to emulate a commercial oven at home.  Hopefully one of the "home experts" can chime in...
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: Pizza_Not_War on November 21, 2020, 10:22:51 PM
some great tips... as there is no pizza that compares..

not having a pizza oven, one thing i have read is a piece of steel will conduct the home oven temp better then the ceramic stone i have been using...  any comments??
Steel transfers heat a lot faster and makes for a faster bake with a better oven spring. I've tried all sorts of stones, ceramics and steel and the steel wins for pizza in my usage. I was going to buy a higher heat outdoor oven this year but with the steel I no longer need it. Under $100 vs. $5000 and up.
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: RHawthorne on November 21, 2020, 10:40:11 PM
some great tips... as there is no pizza that compares..

not having a pizza oven, one thing i have read is a piece of steel will conduct the home oven temp better then the ceramic stone i have been using...  any comments??
I'm probably one of the oddballs here (maybe even the only one), but I swear by my baking stone. I got a pretty good baking steel for Christmas last year, and I've given it every opportunity, in several side-by-side pizza cook-offs, and separately, and I still vastly prefer the pizzas made on my stone. I don't have any science to argue with; I just know what tastes best to me. I don't know what it is. I've tried the steel in different positions in the oven, with plenty of time to heat up, and there's just no comparison. The flavor of any crust made on the steel is just always lacking in comparison to ones made on the stone; kind of flat and muted. And the crispiness of the crust is not really any better either. I know what people will say when they read this: "you just haven't got a really good steel". But I don't care. I'll put my pizzas made on my stone up against a pizza made on a steel any time. I don't feel any need to go shopping for a better steel.
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: Pizza_Not_War on November 21, 2020, 11:55:49 PM
I'm probably one of the oddballs here (maybe even the only one), but I swear by my baking stone. I got a pretty good baking steel for Christmas last year, and I've given it every opportunity, in several side-by-side pizza cook-offs, and separately, and I still vastly prefer the pizzas made on my stone. I don't have any science to argue with; I just know what tastes best to me. I don't know what it is. I've tried the steel in different positions in the oven, with plenty of time to heat up, and there's just no comparison. The flavor of any crust made on the steel is just always lacking in comparison to ones made on the stone; kind of flat and muted. And the crispiness of the crust is not really any better either. I know what people will say when they read this: "you just haven't got a really good steel". But I don't care. I'll put my pizzas made on my stone up against a pizza made on a steel any time. I don't feel any need to go shopping for a better steel.
More than likely your dough recipes are such that they don't favor a faster bake. I doubt it is the quality of the steel unless it is something totally different than what most use. With broiler on and using my steel I can do a 3.5 minute pie vs. 7+ minutes on a stone. That will yield a different pizza entirely.
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: RHawthorne on November 22, 2020, 12:24:42 AM
More than likely your dough recipes are such that they don't favor a faster bake. I doubt it is the quality of the steel unless it is something totally different than what most use. With broiler on and using my steel I can do a 3.5 minute pie vs. 7+ minutes on a stone. That will yield a different pizza entirely.
I don't use the broiler with my oven because it's in the bottom and doesn't accommodate a very large stone or steel. But I've used the same basic dough recipes in both my home oven and my Ooni Pro oven, and I think it comes out great at higher temps, too (like 650-800 degrees, heated with anthracite coal/lump charcoal mix or wood). And even in the Ooni Pro, I've used the baking steel and let it heat up for a good long time, and I still didn't think the crust came out as crispy on the bottom as it should have. I would use my baking stone in the Ooni, too, but I'm afraid the intense heat might crack it, and I've had it for over 8 years now and I love it, and that would be a catastrophe.  But then again, I've never been entirely satisfied with that oven, and I think it has some design flaws that I just can't seem to work around. And to be clear, there's definitely nothing unusual about my dough recipes, either. 
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: PizzaSean on December 03, 2020, 08:26:44 PM
Wow that's a big batch of sauce!

My calculation is 5 teaspoons of sugar for a 28 oz can of tomato. Below is my calc, hopefully someone can double-check.

Thank you for making this chart, Matt! I double checked your math to the best of my ability and I think you're right, but my math isn't always so flawless haha.

Itried this today using a can of Alta Cucina because I couldn't find any San Marzanos at my RD last time.

The only thing was that after adding about 1/4 of the sugar as per measured (I was going to do 2.67 oz into my can that was 102 oz net wt.) I tasted the sauce and it was already very delicious and quite sweet tasting. To be honest I got too wary to pull the trigger on the rest of the sugar into that can of tomatoes. It was tasting so good.

I decided to try this out using the following formula:

Flour (100%):
Water (57%):
IDY (.165%):
Salt (2.7%):
Sugar (1.5%):
Total (161.365%):
355.42 g  |  12.54 oz | 0.78 lbs
202.59 g  |  7.15 oz | 0.45 lbs
0.59 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.19 tsp | 0.06 tbsp
9.6 g | 0.34 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2 tsp | 0.67 tbsp
5.33 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.34 tsp | 0.45 tbsp
573.53 g | 20.23 oz | 1.26 lbs | TF = 0.0795

Flour was King Kaiser unbromated. Dough was at RT for about an hour, then in fridge for about 36 hours, and finally out of the fridge for a few hours before baking.

I chose the TF by noticing that the 20" and 18" doughs had different thickness factors when using the 22 oz and 25 oz weights that Andrew had provided. So I converted the 20", 25 oz weight to the same thickness factor for 18" and got a 20.23 oz dough ball. Unfortunately, I forgot to use bowl residue so my dough ball came up even a bit lighter at 19.81 oz.

You'll see in the photos that I didn't quite make the 18" mark as the 18" tray is quite visible below the edge.

I used a stick blender on the Alta Cucinas because I don't have a food mill. I added 0.72 g of sugar and called it quits there.

Cheese is LMPSM Supremo aka the house brand of RD.

Baked 3 minutes on quarry tiles that read roughly 630F and then I moved it up to a soapstone that was reading around 550F. I dont have any large pizza screens, so I unfortunately couldn't put it on a screen (or two) like Andrew mentioned Joe's does. As a result, the bottom was DARK. But somehow it still was very tasty? Might have pulled it 30-60 seconds sooner if I had known.
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: Andrew Bellucci on December 05, 2020, 09:03:15 PM
Good-looking pie - I saw a Joe's resemblance...
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: RHawthorne on December 06, 2020, 07:23:13 AM
Good-looking pie - I saw a Joe's resemblance...
Yeah, I wonder where he would have gotten that recipe from ;)...
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: thezaman on December 07, 2020, 04:56:32 PM
Thank you for making this chart, Matt! I double checked your math to the best of my ability and I think you're right, but my math isn't always so flawless haha.

Itried this today using a can of Alta Cucina because I couldn't find any San Marzanos at my RD last time.

The only thing was that after adding about 1/4 of the sugar as per measured (I was going to do 2.67 oz into my can that was 102 oz net wt.) I tasted the sauce and it was already very delicious and quite sweet tasting. To be honest I got too wary to pull the trigger on the rest of the sugar into that can of tomatoes. It was tasting so good.

I decided to try this out using the following formula:

Flour (100%):
Water (57%):
IDY (.165%):
Salt (2.7%):
Sugar (1.5%):
Total (161.365%):
355.42 g  |  12.54 oz | 0.78 lbs
202.59 g  |  7.15 oz | 0.45 lbs
0.59 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.19 tsp | 0.06 tbsp
9.6 g | 0.34 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2 tsp | 0.67 tbsp
5.33 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.34 tsp | 0.45 tbsp
573.53 g | 20.23 oz | 1.26 lbs | TF = 0.0795

Flour was King Kaiser unbromated. Dough was at RT for about an hour, then in fridge for about 36 hours, and finally out of the fridge for a few hours before baking.

I chose the TF by noticing that the 20" and 18" doughs had different thickness factors when using the 22 oz and 25 oz weights that Andrew had provided. So I converted the 20", 25 oz weight to the same thickness factor for 18" and got a 20.23 oz dough ball. Unfortunately, I forgot to use bowl residue so my dough ball came up even a bit lighter at 19.81 oz.

You'll see in the photos that I didn't quite make the 18" mark as the 18" tray is quite visible below the edge.

I used a stick blender on the Alta Cucinas because I don't have a food mill. I added 0.72 g of sugar and called it quits there.

Cheese is LMPSM Supremo aka the house brand of RD.

Baked 3 minutes on quarry tiles that read roughly 630F and then I moved it up to a soapstone that was reading around 550F. I dont have any large pizza screens, so I unfortunately couldn't put it on a screen (or two) like Andrew mentioned Joe's does. As a result, the bottom was DARK. But somehow it still was very tasty? Might have pulled it 30-60 seconds sooner if I had known.



 the thing I noticed when eating a joes slice was the sweetness of the sauce how did your sugar level taste to you? your pizza looks delicious!!
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: PizzaSean on December 07, 2020, 05:52:33 PM
Good-looking pie - I saw a Joe's resemblance...

Thank you for the compliment Andrew, it means a lot! I was so excited to try this formula out - thank you so much for documenting it all here for all who visit the pizzamaking forums.

I look forward to getting a couple of screens to help keep the bottom from burning next time.


Yeah, I wonder where he would have gotten that recipe from ;)...

i'll never tell!!!!!

(spoiler: it's in this thread)




 the thing I noticed when eating a joes slice was the sweetness of the sauce how did your sugar level taste to you? your pizza looks delicious!!

It's a little hard for me to say how it would compare side by side with Joe's, but it seemed pretty close to me! It was sweet enough that the burned bottom crust was not overwhelming to my palette. I thought it was delicious and I will probably do a couple more Joe's pies soon where I try to do a few different ratios of sugar in the sauce to see what I think of that. And thank you!!
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: thezaman on December 08, 2020, 09:03:48 AM
Well, you got the All Trumps part right...

Not same day dough.  Cold fermented for at least 12 hours and thrown out after 48.

100% All Trumps
57% Water
2.7% Salt
1.5% Sugar
0.5% Fresh Yeast




Pizza Sauce

It is Nina Tomatoes but not the same ones as the Nina's Costco.  Joe's uses D.O.P., Costco's is either San Marzano "style" or just not D.O.P.  I don't remember, but trust me - I verified that they were different about a year ago. 

Run the can through a hand food mill

Stir in sugar which is more or less 3T sugar = 28oz can

It's very basic.  What's great is the well-doneness that comes from baking at 625. And the cheese to sauce ration is great - it's like 3/4lb for 18" and a just full 8oz ladle of sauce.  Hard to duplicate that in most home ovens...

Andrew thanks for the above recipe. Italian tomatoes are packed with a lot less salt then US brands. Does Joes add any salt to the sauce? Or is it left alone because of all of the salt present in toppings ?
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: Andrew Bellucci on December 13, 2020, 08:39:25 PM
Andrew thanks for the above recipe. Italian tomatoes are packed with a lot less salt then US brands. Does Joes add any salt to the sauce? Or is it left alone because of all of the salt present in toppings ?

The only thing Joe's adds to the tomatoes is sugar. No salt or other seasonings...
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: DXrunner19 on December 16, 2020, 10:40:44 AM
Well, you got the All Trumps part right...

Not same day dough.  Cold fermented for at least 12 hours and thrown out after 48.

100% All Trumps
57% Water
2.7% Salt
1.5% Sugar
0.5% Fresh Yeast


Pizza Sauce

It is Nina Tomatoes but not the same ones as the Nina's Costco.  Joe's uses D.O.P., Costco's is either San Marzano "style" or just not D.O.P.  I don't remember, but trust me - I verified that they were different about a year ago. 

Run the can through a hand food mill

Stir in sugar which is more or less 3T sugar = 28oz can

It's very basic.  What's great is the well-doneness that comes from baking at 625. And the cheese to sauce ration is great - it's like 3/4lb for 18" and a just full 8oz ladle of sauce.  Hard to duplicate that in most home ovens...

Thanks for posting this - I can't wait to give it a shot.  Just to confirm you send that Joe's puts the pizza directly on the deck for a minute and then puts it on the screen.  Just curious and what to learn do you know what the science is behind this?  Also assuming you basically cook the pizza until it's just about done then pull it and finish it off when you reheat the slice before serving.  Does that make sense what I am asking?
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: PizzaSean on December 16, 2020, 03:51:21 PM
Thanks for posting this - I can't wait to give it a shot.  Just to confirm you send that Joe's puts the pizza directly on the deck for a minute and then puts it on the screen.  Just curious and what to learn do you know what the science is behind this?  Also assuming you basically cook the pizza until it's just about done then pull it and finish it off when you reheat the slice before serving.  Does that make sense what I am asking?

The following is my speculation based on my one experience trying the Joe's formula listed above, but I expect that Joe's is trying to take advantage of the nice finish the crust gets by being directly on the stone before using the screen as an insulator to prevent the bottom from burning as the pie cooks to completion in the 625F oven. Andrew B mentioned in another post that there is a roughly 30 second window between a perfectly cooked pie and a burnt one. He also mentioned that sometimes 2 screens (or in his rare experience even 3!) would be used for pies at Joe's.

I think that this would allow Joe's to avoid the textural and visual impact of baking directly on the screen from the onset of being launched into the oven. I'd also guess that altering the order of operations so that you are starting on the screen and then going to the stone might impact the crust's appearance, texture, and finish in a different manner than parbaking on stone and then slipping a screen (or two or three) in between. I'd expect a more noticeable diamond pattern, and a softer more flexible crust, with a bit lighter coloring if the order was screen to stone as opposed to stone then screen.

I just got two 18" screens today and have been seasoning them in the hopes of trying this out soon in my oven. Will report back!
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: DXrunner19 on December 17, 2020, 10:43:54 AM
The following is my speculation based on my one experience trying the Joe's formula listed above, but I expect that Joe's is trying to take advantage of the nice finish the crust gets by being directly on the stone before using the screen as an insulator to prevent the bottom from burning as the pie cooks to completion in the 625F oven. Andrew B mentioned in another post that there is a roughly 30 second window between a perfectly cooked pie and a burnt one. He also mentioned that sometimes 2 screens (or in his rare experience even 3!) would be used for pies at Joe's.

I think that this would allow Joe's to avoid the textural and visual impact of baking directly on the screen from the onset of being launched into the oven. I'd also guess that altering the order of operations so that you are starting on the screen and then going to the stone might impact the crust's appearance, texture, and finish in a different manner than parbaking on stone and then slipping a screen (or two or three) in between. I'd expect a more noticeable diamond pattern, and a softer more flexible crust, with a bit lighter coloring if the order was screen to stone as opposed to stone then screen.

I just got two 18" screens today and have been seasoning them in the hopes of trying this out soon in my oven. Will report back!

That makes complete sense.  I am curious to see the results of your "screens" test.  Especially what type of impact it will have on the browning on the bottom of the pizza.

Thanks for sharing!
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: jsaras on December 17, 2020, 06:05:03 PM
The following is my speculation based on my one experience trying the Joe's formula listed above, but I expect that Joe's is trying to take advantage of the nice finish the crust gets by being directly on the stone before using the screen as an insulator to prevent the bottom from burning as the pie cooks to completion in the 625F oven. Andrew B mentioned in another post that there is a roughly 30 second window between a perfectly cooked pie and a burnt one. He also mentioned that sometimes 2 screens (or in his rare experience even 3!) would be used for pies at Joe's.

I think that this would allow Joe's to avoid the textural and visual impact of baking directly on the screen from the onset of being launched into the oven. I'd also guess that altering the order of operations so that you are starting on the screen and then going to the stone might impact the crust's appearance, texture, and finish in a different manner than parbaking on stone and then slipping a screen (or two or three) in between. I'd expect a more noticeable diamond pattern, and a softer more flexible crust, with a bit lighter coloring if the order was screen to stone as opposed to stone then screen.

I just got two 18" screens today and have been seasoning them in the hopes of trying this out soon in my oven. Will report back!

Vito's in West Hollywood, CA bakes that way.  Stone first, and then moved to a screen.
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: scott r on December 17, 2020, 07:40:44 PM
I have to admit that when I heard that Beddia was starting on screens and then into the Pizzamaster I thought that it was a cop out to ease up on training staff.  Putting the pies up on screens AFTER the bottom sets when there is too much bottom heat makes more sense to me personally.. But... when I got there a few months ago and had the pizza (along with the pizza at MANY favorite NY spots on the same trip) it really stood out from the crowd as being exceptional crust.  Would it have been better decked the whole time... ?  maybe?  but I was definitely impressed with the crust.   
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: Andrew Bellucci on December 18, 2020, 09:38:23 PM
Thanks for posting this - I can't wait to give it a shot.  Just to confirm you send that Joe's puts the pizza directly on the deck for a minute and then puts it on the screen.  Just curious and what to learn do you know what the science is behind this?  Also assuming you basically cook the pizza until it's just about done then pull it and finish it off when you reheat the slice before serving.  Does that make sense what I am asking?

Yes, Joe's runs a very hot oven and it goes down on the deck for anywhere between a minute or two and then gets screened.

I don't know that there's a science to what Joe's does rather than that's how it's always been done. 

As far as finishing a pie on the "reheat" no - Joe's bakes house pies to completion and often sell fresh slices directly when it's super busy.  The front of the oven used for slices is not very hot - maybe 450 where the slices go, from constant opening the door.  So it wouldn't burn like if it was the back of the oven.

Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: DXrunner19 on December 19, 2020, 11:41:46 AM
Just went ahead and gave this a shot.  Used 450 grams of all trumps unbromated flour..  I don't have access to fresh years so did the conversion that King Arthur recommends .33%.  Which meant I only used only about .75 total for the yeast.  Not sure that's going to be enough, but I wanted to get as close as possible.  I am going to give this a shot on my Ooni 16 tomorrow and will post results. 

Plan on also using the deck to screen method that Tony's uses.  Just bought and seasoned a screen. 

Thanks!
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: GumbaWill on December 21, 2020, 06:30:04 PM
\ I glimpsed a can of Nina brand San Marzano tomatoes being opened, which can be bought at Costco.

Thanks that is very helpful. Got to love Joe's slice!
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: GumbaWill on December 21, 2020, 06:39:03 PM
1lb 6oz for 18"
1lb 9oz for 20"
2lbs for Sicilian
That is interesting. I use 619 grams for 18". Joe's pie is so much thinner than mine!
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: RHawthorne on December 21, 2020, 09:51:22 PM
Thanks that is very helpful. Got to love Joe's slice!
Andrew Bellucci did chime in on my comment and stated that the Nina's tomatoes used at Joe's are not the same as the ones available at Costco. So if you're trying to perfect a Joe's clone pizza, keep that in mind.
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: Stavs on December 24, 2020, 02:23:37 PM
Well, you got the All Trumps part right...

Not same day dough.  Cold fermented for at least 12 hours and thrown out after 48.

100% All Trumps
57% Water
2.7% Salt
1.5% Sugar
0.5% Fresh Yeast


Pizza Sauce

It is Nina Tomatoes but not the same ones as the Nina's Costco.  Joe's uses D.O.P., Costco's is either San Marzano "style" or just not D.O.P.  I don't remember, but trust me - I verified that they were different about a year ago. 

Run the can through a hand food mill

Stir in sugar which is more or less 3T sugar = 28oz can

It's very basic.  What's great is the well-doneness that comes from baking at 625. And the cheese to sauce ration is great - it's like 3/4lb for 18" and a just full 8oz ladle of sauce.  Hard to duplicate that in most home ovens...
t

Is that 3 tablespoons or teaspoons of sugar in the sauce?
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: HansB on December 24, 2020, 03:47:23 PM
T= Tablespoon, t = teaspoon.
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: hammettjr on December 24, 2020, 05:50:36 PM
t

Is that 3 tablespoons or teaspoons of sugar in the sauce?

The conversion in that post was off though. See post 22 (screenshot below).
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: novawaly on December 31, 2020, 09:39:25 AM
Wow this thread is amazing. I've been trying to get that joes sauce since the day I started making NY style and have yet to have it.

My girlfriend used to live upstairs from the west village location. I would be in there all the time watching the process. I would watch them open, sauce cheese and bake to completion.

The observations I noticed: I never saw them transfer to a screen at all. It was always straight from they oven to the counter for the slices but maybe they were just rushing pies out bc the line was long

The sauce: one of the reasons I've always been very against milling my tomatoes is bc their sauce looked way thicker than milled to me. It seemed to have the texture of crushed tomatoes. Maybe when I mill I'm using too fine a plate and they just a less fine one?

Either way, this is great to read this thread as it's basically been my holy grail in my ny journey, mostly for nostalgia reasons.

It's funny, I knew the sauce was very sweet and that sweetness/brightness is the first thing I taste when I bite into their slice. when I make deep dish I use about 1.5T of sugar for a 28 oz can, I just never even considered that it could be even more sugar than that.

Thanks so much for posting this! It's been a joy to read

Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: thezaman on January 06, 2021, 09:13:17 PM
 Been working on the joes style pizza using Andrews recipe. The thing I remember most about Joes was the sweet sauce and that was what stood out.  I like pizza with a sweeter sauce.
  I used a number 10 can of tomatoes and the ratio I used was 2.5 ounces of sugar per can. Cheese was grande full milk. And I followed Andrews dough recipe and weight. My pizzas were 16 inches and baked in my koda 16. The baking method need a lot more work in that oven. Balancing the floor is a challenge. The floor varies in temperature a lot over the 16 inch radius that the pizza baked on.
 Thank you Andrew for your recipe its a keeper!
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: novawaly on January 06, 2021, 09:22:09 PM
That looks pretty good man. Nice work. What was the cheese/sauce ratio?
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: HansB on January 06, 2021, 09:36:04 PM
Been working on the joes style pizza using Andrews recipe. The thing I remember most about Joes was the sweet sauce and that was what stood out.  I like pizza with a sweeter sauce.
  I used a number 10 can of tomatoes and the ratio I used was 2.5 ounces of sugar per can. Cheese was grande full milk. And I followed Andrews dough recipe and weight. My pizzas were 16 inches and baked in my koda 16. The baking method need a lot more work in that oven. Balancing the floor is a challenge. The floor varies in temperature a lot over the 16 inch radius that the pizza baked on.
 Thank you Andrew for your recipe its a keeper!

Excellent Larry!
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: billg on January 07, 2021, 09:00:06 AM
Been working on the joes style pizza using Andrews recipe. The thing I remember most about Joes was the sweet sauce and that was what stood out.  I like pizza with a sweeter sauce.
  I used a number 10 can of tomatoes and the ratio I used was 2.5 ounces of sugar per can. Cheese was grande full milk. And I followed Andrews dough recipe and weight. My pizzas were 16 inches and baked in my koda 16. The baking method need a lot more work in that oven. Balancing the floor is a challenge. The floor varies in temperature a lot over the 16 inch radius that the pizza baked on.
 Thank you Andrew for your recipe its a keeper!

Great looking pizza!!!!!  Have you tried making the exact recipe using Grande's East Coast Blend?  I'm curious how it would turn out.  A few places in my area recently switched to this and like it a lot.
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: vincentoc13 on January 07, 2021, 07:30:20 PM
Been working on the joes style pizza using Andrews recipe. The thing I remember most about Joes was the sweet sauce and that was what stood out.  I like pizza with a sweeter sauce.
  I used a number 10 can of tomatoes and the ratio I used was 2.5 ounces of sugar per can. Cheese was grande full milk. And I followed Andrews dough recipe and weight. My pizzas were 16 inches and baked in my koda 16. The baking method need a lot more work in that oven. Balancing the floor is a challenge. The floor varies in temperature a lot over the 16 inch radius that the pizza baked on.
 Thank you Andrew for your recipe its a keeper!
That's a great looking pie! the bottom looks very nice as well.  Did you get any crisp?  I have a Koda 16, I know what you mean about the floor temps.  I'm gonna give this style a shot next week, hopefully it turns out as good as yours!
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: DXrunner19 on January 07, 2021, 07:40:37 PM
Also had a chance to do this using the Joes formulation.  It turned out good and the sauce was sweet just how I remember them.  Also did it in a Koda16 but felt the dough lacked depth and I think its because the dough didnt have oil.  Made a similar dough with oil and thought it had more flavor and was also crispier.  Probably just my preference.  Either way had fun and both pizzas were far and away some of the best Ive made.  Second pizza is the General Mills standard formulation using caputo high gluten flour.  The first is the Joes pizza using all trumps unbromated. 
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: piesofsatan on January 08, 2021, 02:50:31 PM
Been working on the joes style pizza using Andrews recipe. The thing I remember most about Joes was the sweet sauce and that was what stood out.  I like pizza with a sweeter sauce.
  I used a number 10 can of tomatoes and the ratio I used was 2.5 ounces of sugar per can. Cheese was grande full milk. And I followed Andrews dough recipe and weight. My pizzas were 16 inches and baked in my koda 16. The baking method need a lot more work in that oven. Balancing the floor is a challenge. The floor varies in temperature a lot over the 16 inch radius that the pizza baked on.
 Thank you Andrew for your recipe its a keeper!

Alright, this pie makes me want to try this recipe now. Wow!
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: NYSliceUK on January 09, 2021, 12:42:18 PM
This is my attempt from last week. Ive tried it a few times since Andrew posted the dough recipe and I found it was a bit too salty for my liking so I've halved the salt and doubled the sugar to help it brown in my home oven. I also pre-baked the dough for 3 mins at 230c, which helps to give it a crisp. I find this dough is a lot dryer and easier to work with than previous recipes I've used, so that's a bonus 🙂
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: Qapla on January 14, 2021, 08:56:39 PM
Since this thread contains an actual Joe's sauce recipe ... it would be nice if it were pinned  ^^^

JMHO

Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: hammettjr on January 14, 2021, 10:10:12 PM
...

Separately, I'd propose to sticky this thread (maybe after it slows down). It's special.

Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: Andrew Bellucci on January 18, 2021, 08:52:47 PM
Been working on the joes style pizza using Andrews recipe. The thing I remember most about Joes was the sweet sauce and that was what stood out.  I like pizza with a sweeter sauce.
  I used a number 10 can of tomatoes and the ratio I used was 2.5 ounces of sugar per can. Cheese was grande full milk. And I followed Andrews dough recipe and weight. My pizzas were 16 inches and baked in my koda 16. The baking method need a lot more work in that oven. Balancing the floor is a challenge. The floor varies in temperature a lot over the 16 inch radius that the pizza baked on.
 Thank you Andrew for your recipe its a keeper!

You're very welcome Larry!  That's some beautiful pizza!
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: Andrew Bellucci on January 18, 2021, 08:53:48 PM
Also had a chance to do this using the Joes formulation.  It turned out good and the sauce was sweet just how I remember them.  Also did it in a Koda16 but felt the dough lacked depth and I think its because the dough didnt have oil.  Made a similar dough with oil and thought it had more flavor and was also crispier.  Probably just my preference.  Either way had fun and both pizzas were far and away some of the best Ive made.  Second pizza is the General Mills standard formulation using caputo high gluten flour.  The first is the Joes pizza using all trumps unbromated.

Nice pies!!
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: Andrew Bellucci on January 18, 2021, 08:54:31 PM
This is my attempt from last week. Ive tried it a few times since Andrew posted the dough recipe and I found it was a bit too salty for my liking so I've halved the salt and doubled the sugar to help it brown in my home oven. I also pre-baked the dough for 3 mins at 230c, which helps to give it a crisp. I find this dough is a lot dryer and easier to work with than previous recipes I've used, so that's a bonus 🙂

Lower hydration is so much easier to work with!
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: thezaman on February 03, 2021, 09:24:16 PM
I have been stuck on this Joes style pizza. This was my last attempt. Starting to get the stretch down a little better. Lower hydration helps a lot. 
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: parallei on February 03, 2021, 09:30:48 PM
I checked in today and I am about 31K down the list for the covid vaccination. With luck, this Fall I'll be able to make it out to Montauk for some bass fishing. Never been to NYC, but I'm going to stop by your joint!
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: novawaly on February 04, 2021, 01:59:54 PM
I have been stuck on this Joes style pizza. This was my last attempt. Starting to get the stretch down a little better. Lower hydration helps a lot.

good looking pie. did you measure your cheese/sauce amounts quantities? also, did you go milled tomatoes or just crushed?
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: novawaly on February 04, 2021, 02:17:20 PM
I know it was said that Joes runs whole peeled through a food mill but I was just watching this video below and saw them sauce a pie - this is a screen shot I took. I looks like the texture of crushed? Are they thickening with something or perhaps using much less fine sieves than my food mill has bc anytime I pass mine through the food mill, the consistency is much much thinner than this

here's the full video link
https://vimeo.com/108604462
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: MGJBLKTR on February 05, 2021, 01:23:42 PM
I was wondering the same thing....perhaps they're using the shredding disc opposed to the finer milling discs that come with the hand mill.
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: MGJBLKTR on February 09, 2021, 12:29:30 PM
I followed the recipe from this tread with Nina DOP, Grande Part Skim and Fresh Mozz I make from Grande Curd.  Pizza turned out excellent.
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: piesofsatan on February 09, 2021, 01:32:18 PM
I followed the recipe from this tread with Nina DOP, Grande Part Skim and Fresh Mozz I make from Grande Curd.  Pizza turned out excellent.

Beautiful!!! Need to finally give this recipe a shot!
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: novawaly on February 09, 2021, 03:00:54 PM
I followed the recipe from this tread with Nina DOP, Grande Part Skim and Fresh Mozz I make from Grande Curd.  Pizza turned out excellent.
Great looking pie! What cheese to sauce amounts on that first pie? Looks picturesque. 14"?
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: MGJBLKTR on February 09, 2021, 04:08:18 PM
Great looking pie! What cheese to sauce amounts on that first pie? Looks picturesque. 14"?

Thank you.  Both NY style pies had a full 8oz ladle of sauce and about 12oz of shredded cheese.  All pies were 18"
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: John_H on February 11, 2021, 01:14:14 AM
Maybe my calculation was off for the sugar because obviously Joe's doesn't f..k around with 28oz cans.  It's 3.5lbs of sugar for 3.5 cases of Nina's (21 #10 cans)

Thanks for sharing your experience and these recipes Andrew.  It's not everyday professionals of your caliber are willing to part with what is usually guarded knowledge.  Just curious... never having been to NY is Joe's amount of sugar common for most slice shops or are they definitely on the sweet side of the Big Apple?

Thanks so much again!  Some day I hope to make it out to NYC and have the chance to drop by your shop for a slice.  Until then I wish you much success but I think you've already found it!
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: vincentoc13 on February 11, 2021, 05:56:54 PM
I followed the recipe from this tread with Nina DOP, Grande Part Skim and Fresh Mozz I make from Grande Curd.  Pizza turned out excellent.
Those pies sure do look beautiful!! like Portnoy says "Cheese pie is the gold standard"  What type of oven and setup are you using, on the fresh mozz are those square slices that you slice up? Do you prefer cheese on top?  Lot of questions, but when I see pies like that I gotta try to replicate  :D  Thanks! 
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: novawaly on February 11, 2021, 06:11:48 PM
I followed the recipe from this tread with Nina DOP, Grande Part Skim and Fresh Mozz I make from Grande Curd.  Pizza turned out excellent.

Are you using crushed tomatoes or thinned via food mill or mesh strainer
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: fishyguy on March 01, 2021, 12:48:36 PM
MGJBLKTR - amazing looking pie! and special thanks to Mr Andrew being so generous with his knowledge! It looks like the Joe's sauce to dough ratio by weight is around 35% and cheese to dough is about 55%. That makes sense I've seen the pizza review saying there's barely any cheese and sauce but the ratios are perfect! 

My question was any reason they use the part skim?..i've heard part skim has less flavor than whole milk. I live in Canada so our quality and option of cheese is not great. We do have certain San Marzano brand canned tomatoes though

Also do they  through out the tomatoe juice in the Nina cans? I'm guessing yes
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: Majik on March 10, 2021, 08:18:16 PM
Going to give Andrew's recipe a shot, but the only thing I'm curious is do they always use screens? I've gone several times to Joe's over the past 2 months to grab a slice and watch them make some pies, though I haven't seen them use any pizza screens, unless they leave them in the oven. I can see why it's necessary, though I am wondering if things maybe have changed recently? I don't feel like they would, but I'm under the impression it could be because there is lower volume of pies to crank out and maybe temps are different since they don't need to constantly open and shut the oven. I am going to go again in a few days just to confirm. Thanks for sharing!
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: Andrew Bellucci on March 13, 2021, 11:20:15 AM
Thanks for sharing your experience and these recipes Andrew.  It's not everyday professionals of your caliber are willing to part with what is usually guarded knowledge.  Just curious... never having been to NY is Joe's amount of sugar common for most slice shops or are they definitely on the sweet side of the Big Apple?

Thanks so much again!  Some day I hope to make it out to NYC and have the chance to drop by your shop for a slice.  Until then I wish you much success but I think you've already found it!

Hey John,

Always a pleasure to share any info I can.  It's always a debate on "sweet NY sauce".  Certainly places add sugar, but I'd bet an equal amount don't.  And then theres a lowert-end category that uses pre-made pizza sauce that tends to be on the sweet side (to me).  I'm not a fan of adding sugar to my tomatoes.  I like the tomatoes to speak for themselves and season the pie to work with the tomatoes (adding pecorino romano to the tomatoes before baking and black pepper & parm post-bake).  I'm also dusting the board with salt for my plain pies...

Going to give Andrew's recipe a shot, but the only thing I'm curious is do they always use screens? I've gone several times to Joe's over the past 2 months to grab a slice and watch them make some pies, though I haven't seen them use any pizza screens, unless they leave them in the oven. I can see why it's necessary, though I am wondering if things maybe have changed recently? I don't feel like they would, but I'm under the impression it could be because there is lower volume of pies to crank out and maybe temps are different since they don't need to constantly open and shut the oven. I am going to go again in a few days just to confirm. Thanks for sharing!

On almost every pie, Joe's uses screens.  The pie gets launched off the peel (no screen) and bakes for about 2 minutes before a screen is used.  There's a 30-second window between the pie needing to be screened and the bottom being burned.  Sometimes pies in the back of the slice deck don't need screens because that deck runs slower, but the rest get screened pretty much every time.
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: pvura on March 13, 2021, 03:28:51 PM
Going to give Andrew's recipe a shot, but the only thing I'm curious is do they always use screens? I've gone several times to Joe's over the past 2 months to grab a slice and watch them make some pies, though I haven't seen them use any pizza screens, unless they leave them in the oven.

You can get a look at the process of screening the pies at about 2:10 of this video. Seems to me that, just like Andrew said, the pies get screened pretty early on. Definitely less than 3 mins into the bake. Hope the video helps.

https://youtu.be/o4LcE4olT5g
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: Majik on March 14, 2021, 01:44:47 PM
You can get a look at the process of screening the pies at about 2:10 of this video. Seems to me that, just like Andrew said, the pies get screened pretty early on. Definitely less than 3 mins into the bake. Hope the video helps.

https://youtu.be/o4LcE4olT5g

Thanks for providing an example. Im going to a location again tomorrow so Ill keep my eyes out for when they use the screen. Its also good to know they may not use them if the pies are towards the back of the oven, though Im guessing Ive just missed the screening process several times since it seems to happen pretty quickly.
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: MGJBLKTR on May 04, 2021, 03:50:46 PM
Those pies sure do look beautiful!! like Portnoy says "Cheese pie is the gold standard"  What type of oven and setup are you using, on the fresh mozz are those square slices that you slice up? Do you prefer cheese on top?  Lot of questions, but when I see pies like that I gotta try to replicate  :D  Thanks!

I have two ovens in my back yard, one is a wood fire oven that I don't make the typical Neapolitan pizza, rather my exact NY recipe after I blast heat the oven and only cook pizza when its red coals rather than fire from the wood....sometimes I just use anthracite coal but its tricky without a forced air source beneath the coal fire.  My second oven is a commercial Bakers Pride that you'd see in most NY pizza places that I had built into a metal frame and covered with stonework.

As for the fresh mozz, I usually round it into balls but usually they get a little deformed sitting in the fridge.  I need to figure out how to make a loaf.  Also, Grande just released a new fresh mozz loaf so I'm going to try that very soon. 
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: MGJBLKTR on May 04, 2021, 03:51:45 PM
Are you using crushed tomatoes or thinned via food mill or mesh strainer
  I use a food mil as what was instructed in this tread.  It does seem a little thinner than what is seen in the Joe's Pizza vids on Youtube.
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: MGJBLKTR on May 04, 2021, 03:57:51 PM
MGJBLKTR - amazing looking pie! and special thanks to Mr Andrew being so generous with his knowledge! It looks like the Joe's sauce to dough ratio by weight is around 35% and cheese to dough is about 55%. That makes sense I've seen the pizza review saying there's barely any cheese and sauce but the ratios are perfect! 

My question was any reason they use the part skim?. I've heard part skim has less flavor than whole milk. I live in Canada so our quality and option of cheese is not great. We do have certain San Marzano brand canned tomatoes though

Also do they  through out the tomato juice in the Nina cans? I'm guessing yes

Part skim isn't as flavorful as whole milk or the east coast blend , but also is less greasy.  I prefer to shred part skim and whole milk and make my own east coast blend.  As for the juice.....I pour the entire can into the mill, maybe that's why mine sauce isn't as thick as Joe's.  I've used the Costco Nina, which are fantastic but the San Marzano DOP Nina are even better but I have to order those online and its a small fortune.

Hope this helps.
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: MGJBLKTR on May 04, 2021, 04:02:03 PM
I know it was said that Joes runs whole peeled through a food mill but I was just watching this video below and saw them sauce a pie - this is a screen shot I took. I looks like the texture of crushed? Are they thickening with something or perhaps using much less fine sieves than my food mill has bc anytime I pass mine through the food mill, the consistency is much much thinner than this

here's the full video link
https://vimeo.com/108604462

I have the same issue using the food mill.  My sauce is much thinner.  I'm going to try just putting the tomatoes in the mill and not the liquid they come backed in next time I make pizza.
Title: Re: Joes Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
Post by: M.g on October 06, 2021, 01:24:47 PM
I think I'm on target 100%, crispy from the first bite and staying crispy even after an hour