Pizza Making Forum

Pizza Making => New York Style => Topic started by: wb54885 on June 03, 2021, 10:58:34 AM

Title: NY style at 600F+ in a wood fired oven
Post by: wb54885 on June 03, 2021, 10:58:34 AM
Iíve been itching to give this a shot since I got a 950B from Breadstone, wondering how hard it would be to hold a steady mid-level floor temp with a live fire burning. I was prepared for disaster, but these came out pretty nice for a first run.

The preheat fire burned for just over two hours before I pulled most of the coals out and moved the remaining fire to the side. Compared to lighting a fire for NP pies, I used much smaller pieces of wood to get the oven going so that theyíd turn to coals faster, and I fed the oven less often and gave it less fuel each round. The ďcoreĒ or dome insulation temp was at about 475F by the 2.5 hour mark. By comparison, it had been taking me 2.5 hours to get to 550+ using a full blast approach for NP baking, and then Iíve been burning another hourís worth of wood beyond that before moving the coals. The changes to the preheat were pretty intuitive, but still nerve wracking.

So at 2.5 hours the floor is at 800+ and descending, with the fire freshly moved, and the core is approaching 500 and increasing. Another 40 minutes of feeding the fire as little as possible to keep the flame lit and the floor was below 700 while the core was above 550 (I keep the fire on the right side where the thermometer reads). Eventually I was reading temps of 550-650 across the floor from the far side to the middle of the oven and I figured it was time to launch pies.

~16Ē, 365g dough balls. My preferred TF usually falls around .07 and these were in that range. The dough was a monster hybrid of what I have sitting around:

40% Arrowhead Mills Unmalted AP
40% KAAP
10% KAWW
10% Spelt

63% H2O
2.4% salt
.5% sugar
.35% homemade DMP
.096% IDY

Hand mixed at 7am, balled at 11am, baked 7-8 hours later. I thought the day would be warmer so these were a bit underproofed for what I wanted, but I was still happy with the flavor and texture. There was an excellent crunch to the slices fresh from the oven and still a pliable fold to the underside. Iím also using semolina on my wooden peel for the first time and thatís contributing to a nice bottom texture. Really excited to try this with a combination of bread flour and AP for more dramatic crusts.

Bake time was just under 4 minutes for all pies, six total pizzas for the trial run. As I get more comfortable Iíll probably leave them in for a bit longer for a stronger bottom crust.

With the fire staying small and staying lit, the floor was consistently reading 550-650 between pies, even while the core temp rose to 700+ by the end of the evening. Probably a 10-minute lag between pizzas, so plenty of recovery time. I tried to get pictures of the range of fire status, from freshly fed to glowing warm.

This was a fun puzzle to work on and Iíll be back at it soon to build on what I learned.
Title: Re: NY style at 600F+ in a wood fired oven
Post by: wb54885 on June 03, 2021, 11:03:37 AM
Some finished pizzas. Yes, my wife wanted a Hawaiian. Fundamentalists, avert thine eyes.
Title: Re: NY style at 600F+ in a wood fired oven
Post by: wb54885 on June 03, 2021, 11:06:02 AM
Underside and profile pics
Title: Re: NY style at 600F+ in a wood fired oven
Post by: scott r on June 03, 2021, 11:31:31 AM
I love this kind of pizza, beautifully done!
Title: Re: NY style at 600F+ in a wood fired oven
Post by: billg on June 03, 2021, 01:00:39 PM
 :drool:
Title: Re: NY style at 600F+ in a wood fired oven
Post by: Jon in Albany on June 03, 2021, 01:48:46 PM
Looks like you are getting the hang of your new toy. Pies look great.
Title: Re: NY style at 600F+ in a wood fired oven
Post by: markpenacho on June 03, 2021, 10:13:13 PM
Nicely done!  I've been planning to bake some 4 minute pizzas for a while now, but I always end up in the 1 minute range.  The temperature and fire management details will give me a good starting point (I have the same oven, and I build my fires on the right side; I thought I was the only right side fire builder!).
Title: Re: NY style at 600F+ in a wood fired oven
Post by: wb54885 on June 04, 2021, 09:05:10 AM
Thanks Scott, I love it too!

Thanks Bill and Jon. Jon, the homemade diastatic malt finally got to see some use. Looking forward to trying it in a pan pizza soon.
Title: Re: NY style at 600F+ in a wood fired oven
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 04, 2021, 09:28:09 AM
I love this kind of pizza, beautifully done!

 ^^^
Title: Re: NY style at 600F+ in a wood fired oven
Post by: wb54885 on June 04, 2021, 09:32:37 AM
Nicely done!  I've been planning to bake some 4 minute pizzas for a while now, but I always end up in the 1 minute range.  The temperature and fire management details will give me a good starting point (I have the same oven, and I build my fires on the right side; I thought I was the only right side fire builder!).

I hope you find the warmup timeline useful. Iím very excited to have unlocked crunchy pizza mode on this oven. Please share your bakes when you get them going!

Right side fire builders do exist. There are dozens of us...dozens!
Title: Re: NY style at 600F+ in a wood fired oven
Post by: jgeibel on June 04, 2021, 07:02:02 PM
Nice looking pies! I have the same oven and only do new york style at around 650F. My workflow is quite similar. I like getting the floor up to like 800 then let it come down as I reduce the size of the logs. Once I get into the 650 range I start baking. Last bake I went with higher hydration doughs (68%) and really liked how it came out.
Title: Re: NY style at 600F+ in a wood fired oven
Post by: vincentoc13 on June 07, 2021, 01:51:10 PM
Thanks Scott, I love it too!

Thanks Bill and Jon. Jon, the homemade diastatic malt finally got to see some use. Looking forward to trying it in a pan pizza soon.
Your pies look excellent!  Right now I'm baking NY style pies in my home oven using a steel plate, but I definitely want to try NY style in my WFO.  I'm using LDMP for my recipe, I was wondering if you have tried not using diastatic malt in your recipe to see if there is a difference while using your WFO?  I was under the impression you would not need to use it, if your baking temps are in the 600's and higher?  in any case your pies are look great the way you are doing it!  Just wanted to get your thoughts, Thanks!!   
Title: Re: NY style at 600F+ in a wood fired oven
Post by: billg on June 07, 2021, 02:18:16 PM
Your pies look excellent!  Right now I'm baking NY style pies in my home oven using a steel plate, but I definitely want to try NY style in my WFO.  I'm using LDMP for my recipe, I was wondering if you have tried not using diastatic malt in your recipe to see if there is a difference while using your WFO?  I was under the impression you would not need to use it, if your baking temps are in the 600's and higher?  in any case your pies are look great the way you are doing it!  Just wanted to get your thoughts, Thanks!!   

It would depend on the kind of flour you choose.  I just made pizza the other day (Ny style) at 625f and my dough had 1% sugar in the formula and it came out great!.  I was aiming for a 3:30 to 4 minute bake.  I am going to try the same thing and substitute LDMP for the sugar and see which I prefer.  Then I will try both LDMP and Sugar.  If there is any malt in the flour you are using you may not have to add anything.
Title: Re: NY style at 600F+ in a wood fired oven
Post by: wb54885 on June 07, 2021, 06:03:58 PM
Nice looking pies! I have the same oven and only do new york style at around 650F. My workflow is quite similar. I like getting the floor up to like 800 then let it come down as I reduce the size of the logs. Once I get into the 650 range I start baking. Last bake I went with higher hydration doughs (68%) and really liked how it came out.

Did you notice anything different about the bake using a higher hydration with these temps? Iím interested in attempting a more challenging dough after having figured out the bake protocol a bit.
Title: Re: NY style at 600F+ in a wood fired oven
Post by: wb54885 on June 07, 2021, 06:28:25 PM
I was wondering if you have tried not using diastatic malt in your recipe to see if there is a difference while using your WFO?  I was under the impression you would not need to use it, if your baking temps are in the 600's and higher?

This was my first time trying a NY style bake in this oven so I canít compare it to anything else, but if Iíd been using all malted flour I probably wouldnít have tried any diastatic malt or sugar. Using them both here was just about making up for the fact that 40% of this flour was unmalted, and I donít like a pale crust so I put some insurance in the dough. Iíve got a lot more to test with this setup!
Title: Re: NY style at 600F+ in a wood fired oven
Post by: vincentoc13 on June 07, 2021, 09:27:41 PM
Got it, makes sence! Next time I fire up the WFO, its first on my list to use your work flow.  Thanks for the info!!
Title: Re: NY style at 600F+ in a wood fired oven
Post by: jgeibel on June 07, 2021, 09:39:23 PM
Did you notice anything different about the bake using a higher hydration with these temps? Iím interested in attempting a more challenging dough after having figured out the bake protocol a bit.
It ended up thinner and crispier than normal which I like. Felt a little new haven-y. Also tried caputo americano flour (malted high gluten) for the first time so that was another variable that changed. Iím going to try this combo again next time I bake.
Title: Re: NY style at 600F+ in a wood fired oven
Post by: wb54885 on June 11, 2021, 07:33:35 PM
A valuable fire lesson this time:  you can build a smaller fire and shorten your preheat, but shorten it too much and your side fire wonít be able to bring your floor back up to higher temps on its own. Duh!

I was feeling like the oven had enough heat for baking at these temps by about 1.75 hours into the firing, with the core thermometer reading 400 and climbing. But I was overzealous in moving the coals and fire over, and whereas my first few pies landed on floor temps between 500 and 600, the next few were baking between 450 and 500, and the fire wasnít able to keep the floor up. Still enjoyed these pies very much, but now I know that if I donít front-load the oven with a more saturating heat, I wonít have it available after a couple bakes. Iíll assume 2.5 hours is my minimum preheat time for the 950B going forward.

To compensate for having starved the mass a bit of its preheat, I ran a larger fire inside the oven when it was time to bake. I enjoyed scorching these pizzas a little and getting a much darker look on the tops and crusts.

90% KABF/KAAP mix
10% spelt/whole wheat

65.5% HR
2.4% salt
.025% IDY

Bulk for 12 hours, balled for 6.
340g balls stretched to ~15Ē.
5 minute bakes.
Title: Re: NY style at 600F+ in a wood fired oven
Post by: wb54885 on June 11, 2021, 07:36:43 PM
My wife wanted to ďput the yard on a pizza,Ē so this is officially her first pizza menu creation. Not pictured is the chili oil I covered my slice in  >:D
Title: Re: NY style at 600F+ in a wood fired oven
Post by: markpenacho on July 03, 2021, 03:08:03 PM
Tried your technique today with my 950-B. Worked great. First pizza was a 4:00 bake. Longest bake Iíve had by about 3 minutes:). Overfermented a bit but still good. Upped the temperature to try a comparison. Faster, but not fast, at about 1:55.

Both doughs and toppings exactly the same. All Trumps BL/BR, water 61%. Salt 3%, oil 2%. TF 0.1. Ischia 40 hour RT rise. Grande ECB. Tomato Magic smoothed a bit with a stick blender.  A tiny bit of added salt (tomatoes came salted) and tiny amount of Italian seasoning blend

Very different texture and taste.
#1. 4:00. Very New York taste and texture. Nice slight droop to slice. Foldable. Reminded me of mom and pop NY style.  Very good.

#2. 1:55 Still some NY traits, but leaned more towards Neo. Softer crumb. Almost needed a fork, but not quite.  Very different taste. Also good.

I liked both. My wife liked #2 better

Nice technique to learn
Title: Re: NY style at 600F+ in a wood fired oven
Post by: wb54885 on July 03, 2021, 04:30:18 PM
Cool test!

Did you happen to note the respective floor temps for each bake, or how long it took to get the oven to a higher temp after the first bake?
Title: Re: NY style at 600F+ in a wood fired oven
Post by: markpenacho on July 04, 2021, 05:26:11 PM
I got up super early, as I normally do on pizza day, and started up the oven.  I ran it for about 3 hours, using oak that I had re-split down to about 1-3" thickness, and then only if they felt light (as in dry).  Kept the fire small, starting in the center and working my way over to the side, over the course of those three hours.  After about three hours, my wife was still sleeping (like I said, I get up early...), so I let it burn down.  The floor was in the 475 range when she woke up, so I started a small fire back up, and moved the hot coals over the floor of the oven, to warm it up while I went back in the house to make the pizzas. 

About a half hour later I pushed the coals back to the side, and started up the first pizza.  The fire was barely burning during the first pizza.  I turned it at around 2:30, but it didn't really need to turn, as it was cooking pretty evenly.  In my haste to bring the pizza from the house to the oven, I didn't bring my ir thermometer with me.  My bottom came out fine, but didn't quite have the coloring yours did, so I'm thinking my floor was not quite as hot as yours.

I only heated the oven for probably 15 minutes between pizza #1 and pizza #2.  While I'm sure the temperature was a bit higher, including the floor (as the bottom had more spotting), the big difference is that #2 had  quite a bit of radiant heat; the fire was very active and rolling across the top of the oven during pizza #2.
Title: Re: NY style at 600F+ in a wood fired oven
Post by: Dasnyde4 on July 05, 2021, 12:30:17 PM
These look amazing.  Are you using WW and Spelt for taste or for it's impact in the High Heat.  Been debating trying to add some WW to my New York's and was curious on it's impact.
Title: Re: NY style at 600F+ in a wood fired oven
Post by: wb54885 on July 06, 2021, 11:25:32 AM
I got up super early, as I normally do on pizza day, and started up the oven.  I ran it for about 3 hours, using oak that I had re-split down to about 1-3" thickness, and then only if they felt light (as in dry).  Kept the fire small, starting in the center and working my way over to the side, over the course of those three hours.  After about three hours, my wife was still sleeping (like I said, I get up early...), so I let it burn down.  The floor was in the 475 range when she woke up, so I started a small fire back up, and moved the hot coals over the floor of the oven, to warm it up while I went back in the house to make the pizzas. 

About a half hour later I pushed the coals back to the side, and started up the first pizza.  The fire was barely burning during the first pizza.  I turned it at around 2:30, but it didn't really need to turn, as it was cooking pretty evenly.  In my haste to bring the pizza from the house to the oven, I didn't bring my ir thermometer with me.  My bottom came out fine, but didn't quite have the coloring yours did, so I'm thinking my floor was not quite as hot as yours.

I only heated the oven for probably 15 minutes between pizza #1 and pizza #2.  While I'm sure the temperature was a bit higher, including the floor (as the bottom had more spotting), the big difference is that #2 had  quite a bit of radiant heat; the fire was very active and rolling across the top of the oven during pizza #2.

Thanks a bunch for sharing these notes, I hope theyíre helpful to others who are starting out with trying to maintain a steady mid level temp with a live fire.
Title: Re: NY style at 600F+ in a wood fired oven
Post by: wb54885 on July 06, 2021, 11:30:27 AM
These look amazing.  Are you using WW and Spelt for taste or for it's impact in the High Heat.  Been debating trying to add some WW to my New York's and was curious on it's impact.

I just use these as a shortcut to some flavor, and I like playing with the aromas of doughs made with flour blends so I often spike dough with 10% of this or that, turn this one up or down a notch, etc. 5-8% WW gives a nice touch to handling, as well, or maybe I imagine it  :-D