Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza

[bakerboy]

Glad you guys see the humor in my"cheap "post.  Funny that quido beat me to that post.  I didn't want to come across as bitter...I'm laughing when i write this stuff.
pft.  My bakery in in Wilmington De.  It will be first and foremost artisan breads.  Thanks to my pizza expeience and this forum i'm very musch considering doing pizza there also...Fri. and Sat. nites only.  I'll post more on this in a new thread about the new bakery and the pizza dough i'll be developing for it.
  On to the topic at hand.  Bubbles.  You either love them or hate them.  I tend to like lots of little bubbles in my dough.  A cross section of my pizza if done correctly will show a nice crust on the bottom then a thin layer of finely porous dough, then the sauce and cheese on top.  The bubbles act as insulation protecting my bottom crust.  I know i haven't posted any pics of this and maybe i should.  it would be easier to see what i'm talking about.  Thats just my take on bubbles. 
Side note;  varasano, i'm diggin that dlx mixer.  My K5 kitchenaid(which i love) isn't that good for doughs such as pizza.

[pftaylor]

bakerboy,
Now that we know you are contemplating a return to pizza, albeit on a limited basis, please post your ideal.

You write with a humorous and somewhat jaded edge - with lots of conviction. If I had to venture a guess I'd say you could easily be an Eagle fan. It takes years of losing to develop an approach as finely crafted as yours. I should know. I've been a life-long fan. They say those in pain are blessed. If that's the case then Eagle fans are truly blessed.

[pftaylor]

The true test of any recipe is its ability to be accurately reproduced.

Tonight I achieved that goal with the posted recipe in this thread - Pizza Raquel. I started out by easily stretching the dough to over 15", then 16", 17", then over 18". The dough felt like it "wanted" to be stretched. It exhibited an unrippable tactile feedback to my hands. I never felt like the dough was in trouble.

I nearly eliminated the wrinkles which appeared for the first time using the Patsy's dough stretching procedure. They were quite noticable in the last set of pictures I posted. I noticed I was the primary cause due to a spinning and stretching motion when trying to stretch the dough from about 8" to 12". Once I stopped spinning and focused on more stretching the wrinkles lessened.

Take a look. Feedback is generously accepted.

[pftaylor]

More

[pftaylor]

Pie #2

[pftaylor]

Pie #2

[pftaylor]

Cheesy,
I shrunk the skin back down to just under 16" or so. My grill will not accept a pie larger than 16". The reason why I wanted to stretch the skin so big was purely academic. I'm not sure I reached the upper limit. In fact, I wasn't close. I was too worried about being able to get it back down below 16" so my family could eat dinner. The lesson learned on being able to stretch the skin so easily was quite valuable. The dough demonstrated it's high-performance ability to stretch without tearing or even developing those nagging thin spots. Consequently, I very well may choose to reduce the ball size to 13oz or less for a 16" pizza as a result in the near future. The impact of that newfound ability affords the opportunity to reduce the amount of carbohydrates fairly significantly. Fewer carbs without sacrificing taste is a good thing in my opinion.

Here is the complete formulary:

Pizza Raquel - Everything You'd Want (TM Pending) - Based on input from ilpizzaiolo, Pete-zza, Varasano, pizzanapoletana, dinks, bakerboy, quidoPizza, Arthur, friz78 & countless others.

        Weight                         Volume                                     Description                           Bakers Percent
16   oz/  456  Grams      3       cups                                  KASL High Gluten Flour                   100%     
9.6  oz/  273  Grams      1 1/8 cups or 9 fluid oz              Water                                               60%     
.01  oz/  .285 Grams      1/8    teaspoon (baker's pinch)  Instant Dry Yeast                            .15%     
.32  oz/  9.1   Grams      2 1/4 teaspoon                          Sicilian Sea Salt (fine cut)                   2%
.08  oz/  2.3   Grams      1       teaspoon                          Olive oil                                              .5%
1.3  oz/  37    Grams      2       tablespoon                       Varasano Preferment                          8% 

Note: If producing recipe without preferment, boost the IDY to .055 oz, 1/4 teaspoon or .35% of flour

Produces two dough balls weighing 13 - 14oz (enough for two 15" - 16" pizzas)

Preparation Didactics
Stir water and salt with spoon until dissolved in stand mixer bowl. Add approximately half the flour. Add yeast and preferment (optional). Set stand mixer on stir for 1 minute with hook attachment. Allow it to rest for 20 minutes. Mix on stir speed for 5 minutes, adding in remaining flour gradually. Scrape dough off hook if riding high. Add oil and mix on 2 for 5 minutes. Get out thermometer, check dough temperature; it should be 80 degrees at the hook. If not, use warmer or colder water next time to adjust. Allow dough to rest for 15 minutes.

Remove dough from bowl and hand knead for 2 minutes on lightly floured prep area. Cut into 2 equal pieces, form into balls, drop dough into bowls, cover with shower caps or plastic wrap. I use no oil to coat the balls and have not noticed a problem removing balls from stainless steel bowl. Place dough in the refrigerator. Ferment for approximately 24 hours. On the following day, remove dough from refrigerator and bring to room temperature (approximately 60 - 120 minutes). To ensure light crust and proper cooking, dough must be at room temperature before cooking.

Stretching Didactics - Special thanks to DC PM & Jose of Patsy's Pizza
Step 1 - Place dough ball in flour bowl. Dust both sides well
Step 2 - Flatten ball into a thick pancake-like shape with palm of hand, ~ 2" thick. Dust well
Step 3 - Flatten pancake further by pressing 8 fingertips into center and working toward the rim until skin is 8 - 10 inches round. Keep dusted with flour
Step 4 - Place hands palm down inside rim (as if patting with open hand) and stretch outward while turning. Stretch to 12" round
Step 5 - Place skin over knuckles (1st time dough is lifted off bench) and stretch to 16"
Step 6 - Place on peel and dress with favorite toppings
Step 7 - Run a string underneath skin to prevent sticking (Patsy's uses baker's string)
Step 8 - Peel dressed skin into preheated oven (1 hr+) outfitted with a stone or tiles
Step 9 - Bake until lightly charred and golden brown at highest temperature possible

[dinks]

PTTAYLOR:
   Good Morning my learned friend. I enjoyed reading your posting, announcing your new found success in makiing the pizza dough concoction that you have been striving for. Although I was born in NU-YOLK-CITY I never heard of all these pizza joints that most of our forum members describe, nor would I be able to find them. However, I would like to take this opportunity to express my Congratulations for a good & hard work done by you.
    PT, Many times in the recent past after reading many of the postings by our members trying to duplicate some joints recipe concoction I wanted to bellow out to them my feeling about their quest but I kept my council & said "Mind your own Bizzz-nizzz". SOOOO, today I will address it too you,
   "LET'S TRY TO BE A FIRST RATE OF OURSELVES RATHER THAN A SECOND RATE OF SOMEDAY ELSE".
  TODAY I THINK YOU ARE A 1ST RATE OF YOURSELF.
  So now my friend figure out how to send me a slice of your pie by ~E~Mail.

Good work, good luck & have a nice day young man.

Friendly Yours,
  ~DINKS.

[Arthur]

PFT

Your pizza truly looks amazing!  The only place you can probably go from here is the oven.   How long do you cook it on your grill?   I think it's time for the coal or wood burning oven in the backyard/kitchen.  You deserve it!

Arthur,

[pftaylor]

Arthur,
I generally cook the pizza for 3 minutes or less on the TEC grill. Your comment about moving up stream has merit. As hot as my grill gets, it has serious limitations and I have nearly extracted its maximum usefulness at this point. It just doesn't have a lot more to give. I'm grateful to be this far though. One limitation which routinely drives me nuts is the fact that I cannot peer into the cooking area for a visual clue as to the heating process. If you think this isn't tough try baking a pie blindfolded and get back with me. Its a level of difficulty which is unnecessary and almost borders on crazy.

I am in the middle of informal negotiations to have a wood burning 42" outdoor oven built on my screen enclosed pool deck. I would also like to be able to switch fuel sources and experience coal as well. The project should be initiated by next winter/spring. Part of the timing issue is the availability of the oven expert to take on a residential project. 

Dinks,
I have been in an all day business meeting and simply could not respond to your thoughtful post until now. I had a huge smile on my face as a result of your kind words and couldn't wait to jump on the nearest keyboard.

You have recognized the true outcome of the reverse engineering effort. I have developed my own style now and playfully call it Raquel (after my all-time favorite lady). Growing up I thought of Raquel as the ultimate woman. The pizzas I have been making lately strike me the same way. The ultimate exemplary experience. Extraordinary in every way. I could honestly be happy for the rest of my life making Raquels.

I have absolutely no interest in trying to reproduce another man's pizza because I now know I could never do it as well as he can. For instance, no one can make a DiFara pie as well as Dom. Why? Because it is an extension of who he is as a person and a pizzaiolo.

The members here who pointed me in the right direction on this journey shared a piece of themselves to help me with where I wanted to go - even though I had no idea where the actual end point was. True Pizzaiolo knew though. Dinks, you must of known all along I'm certain of it. The question was would I tire before I got there and then would I even recognize it once I had it.

I originally thought I could perfectly reproduce a Patsy's pizza. Now, I realize the fallacy of that goal. I felt the membership pulled me out of the ditch more than once, dusted me off, and sent me on my way. Some of you even knew where I was heading which ended up being a place I never knew existed.

Pizza making, for me, is a 50/50 proposition of art and science. In order to be proficient in making pizzas you first must understand the basic principles behind heat, ingredients, dough management, mixing, stretching, and finally baking. Oh, and the most important ingredient - you must have passion. Pizza is not something that can be made well by robots. It will always have a human element to it which cannot be reproduced. Even genetically identical twins would create different pizzas with the exact same ingredients in my opinion. Speaking of genes, half of mine come from Italy. Sant' Angelo dei Lombardi to be exact. My grandfather married a blonde haired blue eyed girl from Naples. His name was Vincent Quagliariello. They then boarded a ship to NY and he started out pushing a fruit cart through the streets. He ended up owning one of the largest produce companies in NY. I was born in Brooklyn many years ago and the rest is history as they say. I guess that's where my passion for pizza comes from.

Over the coming days I will try and express my Pizza Raquel formulary in a way so that the special community here can try and reproduce a convincing version of it. However, I now know there is only one Raquel and she is all mine.

You can have her sister though. I hear she's available...

[pftaylor]

Here is the final formula for the reverse engineering effort of a true NY style pie (similar to a convincing home version of a Patsy's Pizza):

                                                                  NYC Style Pizza
 
        Weight                         Volume                                     Description                           Bakers Percent
16   oz/  456  Grams      3       cups                                  KASL High Gluten Flour                   100%     
9.6  oz/  273  Grams      1 1/8 cups or 9 fluid oz              Water                                               60%     
.01  oz/  .285 Grams      1/8    teaspoon (baker's pinch)  Instant Dry Yeast                        .0625%     
.32  oz/  9.1   Grams      2 1/4 teaspoon                          Sicilian Sea Salt (fine cut)                   2%
.08  oz/  2.3   Grams      1       teaspoon                          Olive oil                                              .5%
1.3  oz/  37    Grams      2       tablespoon                       Varasano Preferment                          8% 
27.31oz/777.685 Grams

Notes: If producing recipe without preferment, boost the IDY to .055 oz, 1/4 teaspoon or .35% of flour. Also, a coal-fired or wood buring oven is not necessary to achieve a great pizza from this recipe. However, adherence to the ingredient weight/volume and preparation/stretching steps are. A standard home oven pre-heated at 550 degrees for at least an hour, fitted with a stone, will suffice. The addition of olive oil while not used by most, if any, of the elite coal fired oven joints in NYC is required by most home pizza makers. Here's why, the realities of mixing dough with non-commercial mixers indicate the recipe will benefit with the aid of oil. Browning will also. Consider its incorporation to be optional if you have a beast of a mixer or if you have an oven capable of extreme heat. Fine cut sea, kosher, or table salt can be substituted for Sicilian sea salt. Produces two dough balls weighing 13 - 14oz (enough for two 15" - 16" pizzas).

Preparation Didactics
Stir water and salt with spoon until dissolved in stand mixer bowl. Add approximately half the flour. Add yeast and preferment (optional). Set stand mixer on stir for 1 minute with hook attachment. Allow it to rest for 20 minutes. Mix on stir speed for 5 minutes, adding in remaining flour gradually. Scrape dough off hook if riding high. Add oil and mix on 2 for 5 minutes. Get out thermometer, check dough temperature; it should be 80 degrees at the hook. If not, use warmer or colder water next time to adjust. Allow dough to rest for 15 minutes.

Remove dough from bowl and hand knead for 2 minutes on lightly floured prep area. Cut into 2 equal pieces, form into balls, drop dough into bowls, cover with shower caps or plastic wrap. I use no oil to coat the balls and have not noticed a problem removing balls from stainless steel bowl. Place dough in the refrigerator. Ferment for approximately 24 hours. On the following day, remove dough from refrigerator and bring to room temperature (approximately 60 - 120 minutes). To ensure light crust and proper cooking, dough must be at room temperature before cooking.

Stretching Didactics
Step 1 - Place dough ball in flour bowl. Dust both sides well
Step 2 - Flatten ball into a thick pancake-like shape with palm of hand, ~ 2" thick. Dust well
Step 3 - Flatten pancake further by pressing 8 fingertips into center and working toward the rim until skin is 8 - 10 inches round. Keep dusted with flour
Step 4 - Place hands palm down inside rim (as if patting with open hand) and stretch outward while turning. Stretch to 12" round
Step 5 - Place skin over knuckles (1st time dough is lifted off bench) and stretch to 16"
Step 6 - Place on peel and dress with favorite toppings
Step 7 - Run a string underneath skin to prevent sticking (Patsy's uses baker's string)
Step 8 - Peel dressed skin into preheated oven (1 hr+) outfitted with a stone or tiles
Step 9 - Bake until lightly charred and golden brown at highest temperature possible 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Without the help of the wonderful membership of pizzamaking.com, this scalable recipe would not have been possible. The recipe is expressed in terms that make it useful for both the starting novice and hopefully the advanced pizza maker as well. It truly was a collaborative effort. Special thanks goes to ilpizzaiolo, Pete-zza, Varasano, pizzanapoletana, dinks, bakerboy, DC Pizza Maker, quidoPizza, friz78, Arthur, Jose of Patsy's Pizza and Dominic De Marco of DiFara for the inspiration to create such a masterpiece. A special mention to Steve for allowing this project to continue to completion.

All that remains now is for the membership to report results...

Ciao
 

[pftaylor]

Cheesy,
Varasano and pizzanapoletana both recommend the Italian starter (two types for $16) from sourdo.com. It is optional but would add loads of flavor.

Want to give it a shot?

[varasano]

I have never tried the italian starter from sourdo.com, but I do know that they sell excellent products.

Jeff

[pftaylor]

Cheesy,
It is optional.

Varasano,
I'm sorry, I guess when you recommended buying a starter from sourdo, I assumed you meant the Italian one. From your experience, which would you suggest?

[varasano]

How well kneaded is your dough? This one was made with KA Bread Flour, not KA Sir Lancelot. Gluten development, in my opinion, is affected more by how well kneaded the dough is than by the protein content.

[varasano]

Really, I don't have a recommendation. I know they sell good products because Ed's book is great and he obviously has a real passion.  He's selling cultures that come from top bakeries around the planet.  I bought the San Francisco, but it was taken over by the Patsy's in like a week. It smelled really, really different and then boom one day, it was gone, completely replaced.  Those Patsy's guys are tough little buggers.

The San Fran was REALLY sour smelling.

Anyway, bottom line cheesy is that I'd try the italian and I probably will too someday.

[varasano]

Cheesy, FYI the question "How well Kneaded is your dough?" was directed at everyone, not in response to your question.

Anyway, To get well kneaded dough you have to do several things.  Check out my web page for full details.
But in short:
- I find that the Autolyse period is key. Mix the dough very wet for 1-2 minutes, then let sit for 20 minutes

- Knead by machine in a very wet condition, adding flour gradually. Do not put in enough flour for it to start sticking to the machine and just spin around uselessly.  I machine knead 10 minutes on, 5 off, 5-7 on.  This is a lot more than most people recommend. I still have a half batter/half dough through most of the process, until near the end.  In larger machine I could probably babysit it less and add most of the flour up front. But with home machines, I think this process is best.

- I use a DLX 2000 and not the Kitchen Aid most use. I gave up on that. A Food processor will knead the dough very well in much less time, but will heat up the dough and kill the yeast, so it's hard to work it consistently.

- Let the dough rest for 20 minutes after kneading before forming  into balls.

Jeff

[pftaylor]

Cheesy,
I would recommend reproducing the formula I posted exactly. It will produce the best dough you have ever used (in my humble opinion). The dough kneads so well its spooky.

[Pete-zza]

I frequently use a food processor (Cuisinart 14-cup) for kneading dough, but to prevent overheating of the dough what I usually do is temperature adjust the water to around 80 degrees F (using around 35 degrees F for the friction factor for my processor) and I also only primarily use the pulse button.  As an example, if I want to get a finished dough temperature of 80 degrees F, and my room temperature is 72 degrees F, my flour temperature is also 72 degrees F (which is usually the case when the flour is at room temperature), and the friction factor for my food processor is 35 degrees F, then the water temperature (WT) needed to get the finished dough temperature of 80 degrees F is:

                   WT = (3 x 80) - (72 + 72 + 35) = 61 degrees F.

The water temperature in the above example, along with using the pulse switch, should get me close to the 80 degrees F target. If I'm a bit low on the dough temperature, and the dough looks like it might need a bit more kneading, I will sometimes use the regular speed button, but only for the shortest time possible so as not to get the overheating that Jeff mentions.

Peter

[Arthur]

this is why patsy's uses ice to make dough