Hey pft,
Sad to hear about Patsy's. I had 2 pies there in September. The first pie was great - shades of the old patsy's. The next pie, 10 minutes later was just TERRIBLE. I don't get it. You'd never know it came from the same place. Peter, your photo's of patsy's basement and your story were really great to read!
I haven't posted in a long time. I've been out of it for a while. I have done a few experiments in the last 6 months and have a few things to report:
First off, I'm going to brag a bit. Some of my latest pies have been amazing. Light, springy, sweet sauce, perfect char, depth of flavor. I really feel like I've hit the big time with some of these pies. I've had about 8 or 9 pies from brick oven places around the country, including at least 3 VPN places and the new No 28 on Carmine Street. Frankly, I beat them all right here in my electric oven. I'm still not up to the old patsy's and some of the top NYC places, but when my pies are on, they are right up there.
Second: I've had some luck using Marco's very little yeast, no cold rise strategy. I've gotten some very good pies out of this, but not my best. Two minor problems. First, the sourdough flavor it a bit too strong and tangy. Not much of a difference, but a bit too much. Second, the dough is hard too control. It could be ready in 16 hours or 21 hours. It's hard to regulate unless you kind of watch it and move it from hot to cold spots. This is fine if you are staring at dough all day running a pizza place, but for home use, it's a pain. I'd do it if the pies came out better, but they really don't.
I'm going to get technical here. I'm also going to make up some numbers to give some meaningful and clear examples. So don't quote me on exact times and values, I'm trying to give the theory here. Here's what I realize:
The amount of starter you use is not that relevant, because it doubles fast and permeates the dough anyway. It makes a difference, but not much. Assume all these recipes have the same small amount of culture.
Here are some concepts.
- A sourdough culture consists of 2 agents:
- Yeast: a leavening agent
- Lactobacilli: a fermentation and flavoring agent For the sake of example, let's say that a pie is perfect when each agent has performed 100% of it's job. If one is at 100% and the other at 130%, then something is off, by definition.
- The yeast slows down a lot when it's cold. The lactobacilli slows down less when it's cold.
- You cannot vary the relative starting quantities of the sourdough yeast and lactobacilli. They are bound together.
- Baker's yeast is a leavening agent which can rises faster than sourdough yeast, but adds little flavor.
These are the inputs. Now, the idea is to find a formula that creates 100% leavening and 100% flavoring. From here it's a bit of algebra. There are several ways reaching balance, but let me focus on just 2 variables:
- The Cold/Warm rise times, which vary the relative speed for the 2 sourdough agents
- The amount of baker's yeast.
Look at this chart for a moment:
Cold Rise Warm Rise Baker's Yeast Flavor
None 20 hrs 0 g Too Tangy
1 Day 6 hrs 1 g Pretty Tangy
2 Days 3 hrs 2 g Excellent
3 Days 1 hr 4 g Excellent
This is a bit hard to explain. The sourdough yeast and the Lactobacilli are both working, but their RELATIVE speeds vary depending on temperature. By definition, you want a pie when both have done 100% of their job: The yeast has added 100% of the puff and the lactobacilli has added 100% of the flavor. But by cooling the dough, the lactobacilli will slow less and begin to outpace the yeast. You bake when the yeast has added 100% of the rise you need. But where is the lactobacilli in it's job at that time? During a pure warm rise (row 1 in chart at 72 F), with the yeast culture I'm using, the lactobacilli has probably done 130% of it's job. So it's too tangy.
If I put the dough in the fridge (still no baker's yeast) and let it sit a day, it's even worse. The lactobacilli are still going and get a head start on the cold-stunted yeast. Let's say that the yeast has done only 10% of it's job in the cold, while the Lactobacilli has already done 50% of it's job. So, now the rise takes 10% less time - it takes 18 hours to hit 100%. Where is the lactobacilli? After 18 hours It's at 180%. It's out of balance and terrible. So it's way too sour.
So what can I do? I calculate that since my lactobacilli is 50% there, it will take it only another 6 hours to get to 100% of the flavoring. I can now add just enough baker's yeast (a flavorless leavening booster) so that so that the leavening will take the same 6 hours. Let's say that's 1g.
If I do a 2 day cold rise, the lactobacilli is at 75% of the flavoring right out of the fridge, while the yeast is at 20% of leavening. I need just 3 hours to get all the flavor. But I'd need 16 hours without a boost. No good. I have to add enough baker's yeast to rise from 20% to 100% in just 3 hours. So I double the amount of baker's yeast to 2 g.
If I do a 3 day cold rise, the lactobacilli is at 95% of the flavoring right out of the fridge, while the yeast is at 30% of leavening. I need just 1 hour to get all the flavor. But I'd need 14 hours without a boost. No good. I have to add enough baker's yeast to rise from 30% to 100% in just 1 hours. So I double the amount of baker's yeast again to 4 g.
Get it? The longer the cold rise, the more the flavor outpaces the yeast, so the more baker's yeast booster I need to bring things into balance.
Once you understand this, it give you more control and options. For example. I see that with a warm rise and 0g baker's yeast, my dough is out of balance, with the yeast at 100% and the lactobacilli at 130%. How can I fix this? Well understanding the theory gives me at least 2 possibilities: I could add some baker's yeast to bring the rise down from 20 hrs to 15 hrs, thus stopping the lactobacilli at just the right time. Or I could raise the temperature to a heated rise (maybe 85F) to speed up the yeast so it goes as fast as the lactobacilli.
I hope this is not too confusing. It took me a long time to see all this. But once you get this, believe me it really helps a lot.
The problem now is to work out the formulas in exact detail. In real life, these formulas vary by hours and that's pretty hard to take when a 15 hour rise is dinner time and a 20 hour rise is 1 AM. Guests don't like to wait for that extra 5 hours to get the dough just right. In a pizza parlor, I'm sure they use a gut feel and move the dough from warm to cool places based on experience. But with this new understanding I hope to tighten formula. Unfortunately, I have little time for experimentation.
Also, let me note that my 100% leavening is much less than ever before. I now run much wetter and less leavened than I have in the past. Maybe 30-40% increase in volume. Maybe one day I'll do a displacement test to see for sure.
The bottom line of these formulas is that the easiest and most reliable method is the 2 or 3 day cold rise. The flavoring happens in the background and you can pop the dough out of the fridge a few hours before baking. My pies last week were a dream. I used these techniques to do a 3 day rise. The dough came out of the fridge as the oven went on and my dough management couldn't have been easier. In an hour it was ready and the pies were awesome.
