Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza

[David]

Hi Marco,
              thanks for your comments.I truly hope that any decision you should make  regarding participation in this forum is not influenced by my comments.My intention was to encourage  more dialogue on the points I raised  and through that a more  thorough understanding.

The names I quoted were in fact not in refererence to any particular style of pizza,but more about the passion, and diversityof their input - which makes them both enjoyable and rewarding.I think you missed my point there.
For me it's not a case that we must agree or disagree - that's not important (even though I would prefer to agree !) IMO having open dialogue is, and promotes a clearer understanding of things.I had thought about the Pizza Fest a lot and am fully aware that the exhibitors were just a "drop in the Ocean" compared to the thousands of Pizzerias out there.Maybe that's why I was so surprised to hear your dissapointment?I only visited the show for one evening and tasted a couple of Pizza,so i'm no judge against what the rest of Naples has to offer,but i had expected that this was a "Showcase" for the Neapolitan style and had left assuming that it was fairly representative as a style even if not including the finest?Thankfully,due to information provided by yourself and others i was able to venture out into Naples and visit some of the more recommended places and use them as a benchmark.Thanks,
                               David

[quidoPizza]

hi guys'; i glad to see your still working this thread.  AFTER 2 YEARS    I'VE BEEN DOWN TO PASTY'S AT LEAST a dozen times since i last posted. one night the pizza was so bad i didn't go again for months.  and guess what jose' wan't working that night.   i haven't had time to read all the posts. i'm still making pizza at home once and awhile. and working at anthony's pizza in the bronx.  one day any time he calls me. which is rare. thank santo di pizziola not sure if you  guys picked up on this topic here.  but i've been using BUFFALO MILK MOZZ. AT $16 a pound,  from italy.  if you haven't tried it, and can find it. it's worth the cost. i can't believe i never heard of it before,. well it's pizza making season , at my house. and every one is pressuring me to pop out a few pies. so i may even tell a few good stories this winter and maybe even some pictures.  quido

[quidoPizza]

i just read on of tha later post's  pasty's uses a world war 2 army dough mixer. for what it's worth. nothing special except that it still works.   quido

[quidoPizza]

hi guys again:  just reading a few of your posts. you guys are great. and really work hard to get a great pizza and i'm sure i would enjoy having  pizza at any one of your house's. thats a hint to any one in the bronx  just a reminder to you guys. there is nothing special about pasty's, except the oven. and a good pizza man like jose' that's why he's back there. the new owners. don'[t understand how to work the oven. and no 20 year old kid can figure it out.  there is a 7 year old pizza rest. in the bronx.   called tosca's which has a 1920 coal oven.  i went there when they opened . and asked for a 4 day a week job making pizza.  i wanted top $$  and they never called me.  not that i know anything about working a coal oven.  but i figured i knew more than the kids they had working there. and plus jose is my friend. so i could ask him for pointers. long story short, i've ate pizza there about 10 times in the last 7 years. and each time was sorry . very sorry. their big signs saying coal oven pizza means nothing.  it's love for the product. that counts.  quido

[PizzaEater]

Cheesy,
I shrunk the skin back down to just under 16" or so. My grill will not accept a pie larger than 16". The reason why I wanted to stretch the skin so big was purely academic. I'm not sure I reached the upper limit. In fact, I wasn't close. I was too worried about being able to get it back down below 16" so my family could eat dinner. The lesson learned on being able to stretch the skin so easily was quite valuable. The dough demonstrated it's high-performance ability to stretch without tearing or even developing those nagging thin spots. Consequently, I very well may choose to reduce the ball size to 13oz or less for a 16" pizza as a result in the near future. The impact of that newfound ability affords the opportunity to reduce the amount of carbohydrates fairly significantly. Fewer carbs without sacrificing taste is a good thing in my opinion.

Here is the complete formulary:

Pizza Raquel - Everything You'd Want (TM Pending) - Based on input from ilpizzaiolo, Pete-zza, Varasano, pizzanapoletana, dinks, bakerboy, quidoPizza, Arthur, friz78 & countless others.

        Weight                         Volume                                     Description                           Bakers Percent
16   oz/  456  Grams      3       cups                                  KASL High Gluten Flour                   100%     
9.6  oz/  273  Grams      1 1/8 cups or 9 fluid oz              Water                                               60%     
.01  oz/  .285 Grams      1/8    teaspoon (baker's pinch)  Instant Dry Yeast                            .15%     
.32  oz/  9.1   Grams      2 1/4 teaspoon                          Sicilian Sea Salt (fine cut)                   2%
.08  oz/  2.3   Grams      1       teaspoon                          Olive oil                                              .5%
1.3  oz/  37    Grams      2       tablespoon                       Varasano Preferment                          8% 

Note: If producing recipe without preferment, boost the IDY to .055 oz, 1/4 teaspoon or .35% of flour

Produces two dough balls weighing 13 - 14oz (enough for two 15" - 16" pizzas)

Preparation Didactics
Stir water and salt with spoon until dissolved in stand mixer bowl. Add approximately half the flour. Add yeast and preferment (optional). Set stand mixer on stir for 1 minute with hook attachment. Allow it to rest for 20 minutes. Mix on stir speed for 5 minutes, adding in remaining flour gradually. Scrape dough off hook if riding high. Add oil and mix on 2 for 5 minutes. Get out thermometer, check dough temperature; it should be 80 degrees at the hook. If not, use warmer or colder water next time to adjust. Allow dough to rest for 15 minutes.

Remove dough from bowl and hand knead for 2 minutes on lightly floured prep area. Cut into 2 equal pieces, form into balls, drop dough into bowls, cover with shower caps or plastic wrap. I use no oil to coat the balls and have not noticed a problem removing balls from stainless steel bowl. Place dough in the refrigerator. Ferment for approximately 24 hours. On the following day, remove dough from refrigerator and bring to room temperature (approximately 60 - 120 minutes). To ensure light crust and proper cooking, dough must be at room temperature before cooking.

Stretching Didactics - Special thanks to DC PM & Jose of Patsy's Pizza
Step 1 - Place dough ball in flour bowl. Dust both sides well
Step 2 - Flatten ball into a thick pancake-like shape with palm of hand, ~ 2" thick. Dust well
Step 3 - Flatten pancake further by pressing 8 fingertips into center and working toward the rim until skin is 8 - 10 inches round. Keep dusted with flour
Step 4 - Place hands palm down inside rim (as if patting with open hand) and stretch outward while turning. Stretch to 12" round
Step 5 - Place skin over knuckles (1st time dough is lifted off bench) and stretch to 16"
Step 6 - Place on peel and dress with favorite toppings
Step 7 - Run a string underneath skin to prevent sticking (Patsy's uses baker's string)
Step 8 - Peel dressed skin into preheated oven (1 hr+) outfitted with a stone or tiles
Step 9 - Bake until lightly charred and golden brown at highest temperature possible

Varasano Preferment? Can someone point it out to me?

Thanks

[Pete-zza]

Varasano Preferment? Can someone point it out to me?

Dave,

It is a culture that Jeff Varasano developed from a dough that he obtained from one of the Patsy's pizzerias. It is discussed here: http://www.varasanos.com/PizzaRecipe.htm.

Peter

[Jackie Tran]

Are there any forum members that would be willing to share this culture? 

Dave,

It is a culture that Jeff Varasano developed from a dough that he obtained from one of the Patsy's pizzerias. It is discussed here: http://www.varasanos.com/PizzaRecipe.htm.

Peter

[veloboy]

Holy Crap, I just read this whole thread. Got interested, not because I want a Patsy's Pizza (never been, so what do I know) but I liked seeing the process. I'm in my own experiment phase with a NY style dough and I want to see why things happen, not just follow somebodies recipe blindly. I spent 3 hrs prepping multiple balls, all with different ingredient changes just to see what happens. Beteen that, and me reading this whole thread, I clearly having crossed over in to "pizza dork" status.

[pizzablogger]

lol Veloboy 

That is a fantastic thread. It's one of several here that when you are done giving it an attentive read and put some of it into practice, your learning curve and knowledge base is accelerated tremendously.

I love the experimentation with all the different dough balls you did. Let us know of your findings, good luck and have fun! 

--K

[veloboy]

Yeah, we'll see. Did 4 10" balls that I'll be using tomorrow night. Each one had one variable changed. I'm really curious to see what I think. Funny though, 4 pies and just my wife and I to eat them. I'd invite friends over, but one of the reasons I'm doing this is that we are doing a BIG pizza party next Friday where I'll be making probably 8-10 15" pies. Don't want them to get burnt out. Anyhow, I'll probably post up the results, as I need somebody's opinion who actually cares about pizza making. haha Wife loves my pizza, but she isn't the greatest for specific feed back. 

[CIZ28]

I've read through alot of this post and have to say that after a visit to this establishment a few days ago, I was mostly disappointed. It was pretty empty. Even though it was late on Saturday night, a place like Totonno's, Grimaldi's, or DeLorenzo's would probably be slammed. The service is definitely not that good, the food in the dining room is just OK, (the fried calamari was very good and the cheesecake was decent) everything else kind of blah. The pizza was also apparently off. Now, I've had authentic Neapolitan style pizza before, among many others. The guys making the pizza (that barely spoke English) gave me a Margherita that was barely browned/charred and almost white on the bottom. This was the softest, least crispy, most soggy, somewhat undercooked, and most difficult to eat crust that I've ever experienced. It was also too thin and weak. Handling it was just horrible and messy. The edge/rim was slightly tough and it almost tasted like a wafer instead of pizza dough. The crust on that pizza and on the plain slice I also ordered (which they didn't reheat and just gave me warm) underwhelmed everyone and just took away from it. I guess I should specify well-done if I go again, even though at a coal oven place that should be the standard. I hope it's alot better well-done, because if not, it makes me think as to why people would go through such great lengths to re-engineer that kind of bland dough. I read online reviews afterwards complaining about many of the same things. I was most angry about the place not doing it's legacy justice.

I will admit though, there were bright spots. The chunky sauce and cheese were extremely good, very tasty. If I wanted to re-engineer anything off of those pies, that would be it. Probably one of the best tasting plain slices I've ever had save for the soggy paper crust. I'd rather have the original NYC method of cheese on bottom and sauce on top than the "corner slice orange blanket" though. I also don't think I saw the use of any parmesan or oregano on the plain pies which was odd and I didn't see if they used any oil on the Margherita. Not sure though. I should probably try Totonno's next. I hear their pizza a little thicker, more crispy, and at least cooked right.

[TXCraig1]

I should probably try Totonno's next. I hear their pizza a little thicker, more crispy, and at least cooked right.

Don't hold your breath. I was there a couple months ago, and it wasn't very good. As one of the guys I was with put it, "It's hotter in the restaurant than the oven."

[CIZ28]

Really? What was your experience there? I've wanted to try them for a while.

[QwertyJuan]

Just read this entire thread... took me about 3 hours. Wow. What a blast from the past. Now Jeff has his own pizza place. I feel more educated than I did before!

[PizzaEater101]

Don't hold your breath. I was there a couple months ago, and it wasn't very good. As one of the guys I was with put it, "It's hotter in the restaurant than the oven."

Craig, I know this is an old post but I want to reply.  I never been there, I never been to NYC as far as that goes but that Barstool Pizza review guy who always says "you know the rules, one bite", tried it in his review and you can tell it was really floppy.  He made comment on that too.  I don't think it was one of his faves to say the least.  I like seeing all the places he goes to but be aware he uses profane language, can be crude and rude and raunchy.  Other than that cool reviews.

[CIZ28]

Craig, I know this is an old post but I want to reply.  I never been there, I never been to NYC as far as that goes but that Barstool Pizza review guy who always says "you know the rules, one bite", tried it in his review and you can tell it was really floppy.  He made comment on that too.  I don't think it was one of his faves to say the least.  I like seeing all the places he goes to but be aware he uses profane language, can be crude and rude and raunchy.  Other than that cool reviews.

You talking Totonno's or Patsy's?

[PizzaEater101]

You talking Totonno's or Patsy's?

Sorry, Totonno's.  He liked Patsy's.  I should have been more clear.

[dfried1]

I've read a his whole thread and wanted to add a few bits. I started going to Patsy on 117th around 82' The restaurant was basically closed except for junkie hookers in the bathroom and Patsy's wife Carmella. She would sit with a bowl and spoon and peal peppers. Her hand shaking as the spoon pealed the peppers. The oven side was manned by Jose. He was making mostly slices but would let us go into restaurant and he would make us pies. Three of us would get two pies. One cheese and one marinara , if Jose had garlic for the marinara. It was amazing.  He loved to tell us how Sinatra offered to move him to Vegas to make pizza for him.  Standing in front of the oven in a dilapidated tiny room , he grinned proudly, How could I ever leave this place.
The limos would double park coming in to get pies . It was a very sketchy neighborhood in early 80's . 
Then somewhere in the 90's things began to change. New sign and some renovation of restaurant. I was told the name and recipe was franchised . Started seeing other Patsys in NY. I've been to some and it was close but not what Jose made or Frank loved. 
So when I read about Jose in 2000 I'm not sure it's the same person?  Not sure but Frank was going in the 60's and I was 20 years later. Nevertheless it's still legendary.