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Author Topic: Have you had this cheese melt?  (Read 69238 times)

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Offline invertedisdead

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Re: Have you had this cheese melt?
« Reply #740 on: March 18, 2018, 10:20:50 PM »
Here's a screenshot of a very short video I took yesterday of a pie that was straight out of a pizzeria oven and still bubbling. There's a good amount of cheese that's still white and very little that's browned. Makes me think the boil was short.

Maybe! Maybe cold cheese? I guess you didn't have an opportunity to time the bake?
the proof is in the pizza

Offline hammettjr

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Re: Have you had this cheese melt?
« Reply #741 on: March 18, 2018, 10:36:23 PM »
Maybe! Maybe cold cheese? I guess you didn't have an opportunity to time the bake?

I didnt time it, but he told me 10 minutes at 550 all on the mesh screen. And said in a home oven, I may need to go longer, maybe 15 minutes.

I did 9:45 at only 480 and the wm grande was blistering. I'm thinking of trying 460 (where I like my pan bakes) and take it out as soon as I see rapid bubbling in the cheese.
Matt

Offline hammettjr

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Re: Have you had this cheese melt?
« Reply #742 on: March 18, 2018, 10:40:40 PM »
Jump in here Norma  :chef: any idea how long the rapid cheese bubbling is on your pies?
Matt

Offline jkb

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Re: Have you had this cheese melt?
« Reply #743 on: March 19, 2018, 05:30:32 AM »
I didnt time it, but he told me 10 minutes at 550 all on the mesh screen. And said in a home oven, I may need to go longer, maybe 15 minutes.

I did 9:45 at only 480 and the wm grande was blistering. I'm thinking of trying 460 (where I like my pan bakes) and take it out as soon as I see rapid bubbling in the cheese.

10 minutes in a home oven @550 it would be toast.  8 minutes @500 is the max for me.
John

Offline norma427

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Re: Have you had this cheese melt?
« Reply #744 on: March 19, 2018, 07:47:11 AM »
Jump in here Norma  :chef: any idea how long the rapid cheese bubbling is on your pies?

Lol Matt.  Would think the rapid cheese bake is near the end of my bakes at market.  If I can figure out how to work the new camera will take a video.  No matter how many times the doors are open and shut the rapid cheese bakes still occur about the same time.  The bottom crust can get a little lighter if too many pies/slices are going in and out of the oven.  Have watched many times how the cheese/cheeses bubble and it still always amazes me.   :-D

Norma

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Offline hammettjr

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Re: Have you had this cheese melt?
« Reply #745 on: March 19, 2018, 07:49:04 AM »
10 minutes in a home oven @550 it would be toast.  8 minutes @500 is the max for me.

I agree. Why is this the case? It implies we need to set our ovens at temps lower than they use, which is counterintuitive.

How is temperature measured in a deck oven? Where is the probe?
« Last Edit: March 19, 2018, 07:52:08 AM by hammettjr »
Matt

Offline rparker

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Re: Have you had this cheese melt?
« Reply #746 on: March 19, 2018, 07:58:54 AM »
Here's a screenshot of a very short video I took yesterday of a pie that was straight out of a pizzeria oven and still bubbling. There's a good amount of cheese that's still white and very little that's browned. Makes me think the boil was short.
If you were to guess, how much cheese is on that pie?

Most of my pies look like this. Not just the cheese. Look at the outer rim paleness, too. It's my week top elements in that mini-deck (not) hard at work. Compare the cheese in your pizzeria shot to my home oven and BS bakes in my thread before I got the deck. The BS in particular. In hindsight, I needed to reduce heat a great deal for the type of result I was after. I was actually going in that direction before I go the mini-deck.

The thin-set sauce is only part of an equation. The only way I know if my sauce is thin-set enough is by taste. I think I know a visual, but I'm not convinced that it's correct yet. What I am convinced of is that the presence of orange nectar is not an absolute indicator that the cheese/sauce boil happened as much as I wanted. That picture is proof as long as you can tell me that the sauce seemed to have blossomed into that sweet, tangy NY sauce flavor. If not, I can only tell you from mine.

Heavy nectar and rapid boils do often happen together, though.  As I discovered with the BS and with some 525F-550F bakes is that the cheese can certainly red-nectar up without the sauce doing a big 100% boil. The sauce getting hot enough to help cheese nectar up and the sauce getting hot enough to cook itself and release it's perfect flavor are NOT one in the same. I need thinner sauce not to help the cheese, but to help the sauce itself. Let itself cook quicker better. More thin-set sauce (without becoming too much) lets me cook it longer, too, as there is more liquid to evaporate before becoming dry.

In mine, doing 490F-ish bakes, I get minor ker-plopping at 4 minutes in, rotate, and then the rapid bubbling seems to ramp up big time between the 6-7 minute mark. A few minutes before it starts to slow down some and done by 9-1/2 to 10 minutes. Last bake was 18" 425g cheese, 280g thin sauce and flavor was right on target. (done with tomato processing experiments   :drool: :drool:   more on that in the sauce thread later.  )  The cheese was as you described it and looked in your pic. (and many pro pics in this thread)   

It is a strange, wonderful balancing act. That balancing act changes in the BS and the home oven even getting down to the temp range where I ended up. I was doing a lot of "over-nectaring" of the cheese to help my sauce cook. Still tasted pretty nice, though, when it worked.  ;D


 

Offline norma427

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Re: Have you had this cheese melt?
« Reply #747 on: March 19, 2018, 08:05:07 AM »
I agree. Why is this the case? It implies we need to set our ovens at temps lower than they use, which is counterintuitive.

How is temperature measured in a deck oven? Where is the probe?

Matt,

Thought this was a interesting video for air temperature (not surface temperature) on a Baker's Pride, or any deck oven.



As I posted before each deck oven can bake differently.  Found that out at pizza events.  The crust rise, cheese melt, bottom crust and many other things can be different.  Think that is one reason why it is so hard to replicate different pizzerias pies.  The top deck and the bottom deck on the oven at market also bake differently.  Found out if pies are started on the top deck, then they need to be placed on the bottom deck to finish (that is at market).

Norma

Offline quietdesperation

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Re: Have you had this cheese melt?
« Reply #748 on: March 19, 2018, 08:21:20 AM »
I take notes on bubbling, my last bake was 525, 8 mins, bubbling began at 5:30, so about 2.5 mins. The pizza guy that sells me grande east coast mix claims he sometimes forgets about a pie but with grande, it still comes out perfectly. So maybe cheese brand and blend are a factor as well. Also, I think Iím using more cheese than most and as vsteve pointed out, my cheese is pooling in the center due to uneven stretching which Iím guessing is effecting the boil and subsequent release of oil.

Best,


Edit: Iím also using the convection feature on our oven which is probably a factor as well
« Last Edit: March 19, 2018, 08:25:50 AM by quietdesperation »
jeff

HarryHaller73

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Re: Have you had this cheese melt?
« Reply #749 on: March 19, 2018, 08:59:18 AM »
I take notes on bubbling, my last bake was 525, 8 mins, bubbling began at 5:30, so about 2.5 mins.

There is a difference in a bake where the cheese bubbles and begins lifting and an actual boil where the cheese mingles with a wet sauce.  Neither is superior, just depends on what you want.   I find the two most important variables to a boil is the sauce consistency/texture and the oven.  A deck will enable boiling very quickly and when remove from oven will continue to do so for a few minutes.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2018, 09:09:07 AM by HarryHaller73 »

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Offline quietdesperation

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Re: Have you had this cheese melt?
« Reply #750 on: March 19, 2018, 09:07:13 AM »
thanks harry, that's really interesting, from the look of my pie, I'm guessing it's the former.  I'll take a closer look next bake. clearly, my pies stop bubbling the second I take them off the steel.

Roy, I think you mentioned somewhere that your cheese/sauce blend is scalding, burn-the-roof-of-your-mouth hot. Does your pie continue to bubble out of the oven?

best,
« Last Edit: March 19, 2018, 09:09:17 AM by quietdesperation »
jeff

HarryHaller73

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Re: Have you had this cheese melt?
« Reply #751 on: March 19, 2018, 09:12:30 AM »
thanks harry, that's really interesting, from the look of my pie, I'm guessing it's the former.  I'll take a closer look next bake. clearly, my pies stop bubbling the second I take them off the steel.

I would also add, the melted cheese texture on a slice, that NY stretch and gooey-ness is actually from boiling.  If you were to drop a hunk of mozzarella into a simmering pot of tomato sauce, you get that effect.  A more paste like sauce or one with more solids will allow the cheese to kinda crust and brown faster during bake.  Another variable is amount of sauce.  All really depends on what kind of pizza you wanna make.

« Last Edit: March 19, 2018, 10:18:27 AM by HarryHaller73 »

Offline rparker

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Re: Have you had this cheese melt?
« Reply #752 on: March 19, 2018, 09:21:44 AM »
Roy, I think you mentioned somewhere that your cheese/sauce blend is scalding, burn-the-roof-of-your-mouth hot. Does your pie continue to bubble out of the oven?

best,
I think that was HH3 who said that, but I may be mistaken. I've not tried one from the mini-deck any less than probably 8 minutes. It used to be as low as 4 minutes from the home oven and the blackstone, but that increased as my crust density and strength improved. It has always been needs based. I wait 9 minutes from after I've placed the pie on the screen to cool and have given it some olive oil. Another minute or so before actually cutting. It's still good a hot, but not mouth-roof burning hot except maybe a toddler or something. Hot enough to think another minute or two would have been better to allow the flavors to settle down or mature. 

If I leave it alone after I take it out of the oven, I will have some spits and sputters 30 seconds post bake, but I don't leave it alone. A nice healthy sprinkling of olive oil  cools it down quickly. 

Offline quietdesperation

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Re: Have you had this cheese melt?
« Reply #753 on: March 19, 2018, 09:54:12 AM »
thanks roy, I know HH said that about a deck oven but someone, maybe it was mike if not you, mentioned they were seeing the same thing out of a home oven. anyhow, I'm not getting anywhere near that much heat in my pie, we typically wait five minutes post bake and it's warm, not hot.

food for thought.
jeff

Offline quietdesperation

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Re: Have you had this cheese melt?
« Reply #754 on: March 19, 2018, 10:06:18 AM »
  All really depends on what kind of pizza you wanna make.

  that's really the key. I'm a little reluctant to chase the ny standard in a home oven when we can simply walk out of our apt or drive five mins from our house and get a good slice. Couple that with your points on home oven vs. deck and that my family likes my current pie more than our local pizzeria and it leaves me wondering if it's worth the time to move away from my sorta ny bakes. also, come spring, I'll be focusing on neo...

of course, each of us makes our own choice and I'm in awe of what people have achieved lately (some with your help and prodding harry) in capturing the ny standard in a home oven.

best,
jeff

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Offline hammettjr

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Re: Have you had this cheese melt?
« Reply #755 on: March 19, 2018, 05:33:21 PM »
Great discussion from everyone!

If you were to guess, how much cheese is on that pie?
....

Hard for me to put a number to it as I've never made such a large pie. It was a medium amount, not very heavy but not too light. The pic below is from my almost 3 year old misfiring a bite and pulling all the cheese away from the crust. (Different pie, but same shop.)
Matt

Offline hammettjr

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Re: Have you had this cheese melt?
« Reply #756 on: March 19, 2018, 07:29:04 PM »
Lol Matt.  Would think the rapid cheese bake is near the end of my bakes at market.  If I can figure out how to work the new camera will take a video.  No matter how many times the doors are open and shut the rapid cheese bakes still occur about the same time.  The bottom crust can get a little lighter if too many pies/slices are going in and out of the oven.  Have watched many times how the cheese/cheeses bubble and it still always amazes me.   :-D

Norma

Would be really cool to see a video of the bake Norma.

How do pizzeria operators know when a pie is done. It has to be based on look. Bottom crust, top crust and cheese?

I think I'm better off watching the cheese and learning how it looks instead of watching my stopwatch.
Matt

Offline norma427

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Re: Have you had this cheese melt?
« Reply #757 on: March 19, 2018, 09:40:56 PM »
Would be really cool to see a video of the bake Norma.

How do pizzeria operators know when a pie is done. It has to be based on look. Bottom crust, top crust and cheese?

I think I'm better off watching the cheese and learning how it looks instead of watching my stopwatch.

Matt,

Didn't get to fool with the new camera today but will take some videos maybe next week, unless can get a few on the cell.  Since I am only one really small pizzeria operator my doughs were almost tailored for the oven I have.  Played around with different formulations and temperatures for awhile.  But to add to what I posted Frank Giaquinto made many different NY style pizzas in my oven with different doughs, different sauces, different sauces thickness, different amounts of cheeses/cheese blends and other variables, but one thing we didn't change was the oven temperatures. 

Maybe other pizza operators can tell you more.

Norma

Offline invertedisdead

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Re: Have you had this cheese melt?
« Reply #758 on: March 21, 2018, 05:18:40 PM »
Is this the same type of cheese used on NY Margherita's?
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Offline hammettjr

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Re: Have you had this cheese melt?
« Reply #759 on: May 09, 2018, 06:58:31 AM »
Anyone know if pizzerias typically apply their mozz somewhat cold?
Matt

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