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Author Topic: NY Style sauce discussion  (Read 53633 times)

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HarryHaller73

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #40 on: May 26, 2017, 09:36:47 AM »
Can you recommend a place that has a pre-cooked sauce? I'm hoping to get to Margherita or Amore (really trying for Margherita) towards the end of June. Do they pre-cook? How is their sauce?

Margherita and Lucia are old school >50 years old and cook their sauces like most slice joints did years ago.   Again, cook meaning not a 5 hour boil in a cauldron, but a light simmer to meld flavors and convert the pH.  Too long and it'll be lost and turn into marinara.  The sauce is an orange/red and wet.   The general philosophy is the sauce is what flavors the mozzarella.  There is powdered cheese, olive oil, oregano, onion/garlic flavor, some black pepper, sometimes some other ingredient with high glutamatic acid, and balancing a salt/tart/sweet profile.  You really taste the sauce unlike generic slice joints.



« Last Edit: May 26, 2017, 10:07:35 AM by HarryHaller73 »

Offline hotsawce

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #41 on: May 26, 2017, 04:50:46 PM »
To my knowledge, NY Sauce has never been a cooked sauce. The orange slick is a product of the right oven temp when the cheese melds with the sauce in a way.


Offline hammettjr

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #42 on: May 26, 2017, 05:03:54 PM »
Harry, it may be helpful if you could share how you came to the precooked conclusion. Is it from observing the taste and texture of the sauce, from discussions with the pizzeria owners, from seeing the pot of simmering sauce, other? Particularly for pizzerias still operating that way today.

In any event, does anyone have a view on the smallest amount of sauce that can be simmered at a time? I dont think my pots would work well with a 1/2 cup of tomato. I'm thinking of doing a side by side test this weekend.
Matt

Offline invertedisdead

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #43 on: May 26, 2017, 05:13:27 PM »
Isn't it interesting how two native New Yorkers could have completely opposite opinions regarding NY pizza?
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #44 on: May 26, 2017, 05:19:33 PM »
Isn't it interesting how two native New Yorkers could have completely opposite opinions regarding NY pizza?

Come talk brisket in Texas.  :-D
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HarryHaller73

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #45 on: May 26, 2017, 11:37:24 PM »
To my knowledge, NY Sauce has never been a cooked sauce. The orange slick is a product of the right oven temp when the cheese melds with the sauce in a way.

Go to Queens or the Bronx or where Hispanics and Blacks live in Brooklyn.  Slices in Manhattan are generally garbage.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2017, 11:39:40 PM by HarryHaller73 »

HarryHaller73

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #46 on: May 26, 2017, 11:38:06 PM »
Isn't it interesting how two native New Yorkers could have completely opposite opinions regarding NY pizza?

I don't think hotsawce is native.  Where were you born and where did you grow up before you came to Crooklyn?

HarryHaller73

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #47 on: May 27, 2017, 12:47:04 AM »
and no, there is no ny pizza in italy, though they've tried.  it's #*%$ awful.

HarryHaller73

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #48 on: May 27, 2017, 11:46:55 PM »
Harry, it may be helpful if you could share how you came to the precooked conclusion. Is it from observing the taste and texture of the sauce, from discussions with the pizzeria owners, from seeing the pot of simmering sauce, other? Particularly for pizzerias still operating that way today.

In any event, does anyone have a view on the smallest amount of sauce that can be simmered at a time? I dont think my pots would work well with a 1/2 cup of tomato. I'm thinking of doing a side by side test this weekend.

Not all NY slices are made with cooked sauces, I was merely stating that was a workflow of the past before you were born.  Today, you have heavy pastes, which is a pH affected tomato product (via cooking during processing, umami rich), and speeds up the workflow. 

I have spent extensive time with several pizzerias in research to know they cook sauces.  Again, cook does not equal hours of boil, but simmer for what, 15-30 minutes.   If you know sauces of any cuisine, from chinese to french, simmer and boils produce very different outcomes and then there is the rate of caramelization via the oven.  It's a fine balance.

Even with uncooked sauces, the worst advice imo, is to take raw tomatoes in a home oven for Ny slices.  Deck ovens produce the IR heat to cook the sauce right.  (you won't even get that in an NP oven which has less IR heat, but that's what they want in that style, "fresh, raw")
« Last Edit: May 28, 2017, 12:09:15 AM by HarryHaller73 »

Offline chrisgraff

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #49 on: May 28, 2017, 10:52:21 AM »
I recently switched to cooking the sauce because the consistency is better - not so watery. My go to recipe is Marcella Hazan's marinara with half the butter. Really tasty!

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Offline invertedisdead

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #50 on: May 28, 2017, 01:54:32 PM »
Not all NY slices are made with cooked sauces, I was merely stating that was a workflow of the past before you were born.  Today, you have heavy pastes, which is a pH affected tomato product (via cooking during processing, umami rich), and speeds up the workflow. 

I have spent extensive time with several pizzerias in research to know they cook sauces.  Again, cook does not equal hours of boil, but simmer for what, 15-30 minutes.   If you know sauces of any cuisine, from chinese to french, simmer and boils produce very different outcomes and then there is the rate of caramelization via the oven.  It's a fine balance.

Even with uncooked sauces, the worst advice imo, is to take raw tomatoes in a home oven for Ny slices.  Deck ovens produce the IR heat to cook the sauce right.  (you won't even get that in an NP oven which has less IR heat, but that's what they want in that style, "fresh, raw")

The heavy pastes have been around for quite a while, no? I recall Frank Guaquinto mentioned his father used Flotta pizza sauce in Norma's video.
the proof is in the pizza

Offline norma427

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #51 on: May 28, 2017, 04:22:41 PM »
The heavy pastes have been around for quite a while, no? I recall Frank Guaquinto mentioned his father used Flotta pizza sauce in Norma's video.

Ryan, 

I don't know how long the Flotta sauce has been around but it isn't as thick as the Stanislaus Saporito.  Yes, Frank did mention he liked the Flotta.

I played around with different crushed tomatoe and hand crushed whole tomatoes on one thread. Other ingredients were added and then they were slowed baked at a low temperature.  The taste sure was different when baked on a pizza.

Norma

Offline JD

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #52 on: May 30, 2017, 07:25:37 AM »
Not all NY slices are made with cooked sauces, I was merely stating that was a workflow of the past before you were born.  Today, you have heavy pastes, which is a pH affected tomato product (via cooking during processing, umami rich), and speeds up the workflow. 

You've mentioned altering the pH of tomatoes a couple times, can you elaborate on this a little so I understand the theory?


Ryan, 

I don't know how long the Flotta sauce has been around but it isn't as thick as the Stanislaus Saporito.  Yes, Frank did mention he liked the Flotta.

I played around with different crushed tomatoe and hand crushed whole tomatoes on one thread. Other ingredients were added and then they were slowed baked at a low temperature.  The taste sure was different when baked on a pizza.

Norma

Norma - Is Saporito extra-heavy your preference? If so, do you mix any other tomatoes with it?


I've played around with heavy puree's like Saporito/Full red but I find myself coming back to 7/11's for the extra brightness. I spoke with the sales guy at Sansone foods about what his clients are buying, and he said 7/11's with a mix of some type of whole tomatoes makes a good NY sauce, or using a heavy pizza sauce and watering it down if they want to go the more economical route. I do like the blending of 7/11's with whole tomatoes.
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Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #53 on: May 30, 2017, 08:51:36 AM »
Craig, I'd much rather came eat brisket in Texas than talk about it :-D


I've been lucky enough to do so a few times...so good!


Sorry to interrupt   ;D

Offline invertedisdead

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #54 on: May 30, 2017, 01:06:52 PM »
You've mentioned altering the pH of tomatoes a couple times, can you elaborate on this a little so I understand the theory?


Norma - Is Saporito extra-heavy your preference? If so, do you mix any other tomatoes with it?


I've played around with heavy puree's like Saporito/Full red but I find myself coming back to 7/11's for the extra brightness. I spoke with the sales guy at Sansone foods about what his clients are buying, and he said 7/11's with a mix of some type of whole tomatoes makes a good NY sauce, or using a heavy pizza sauce and watering it down if they want to go the more economical route. I do like the blending of 7/11's with whole tomatoes.

I would think thinning the extra heavy puree with blended undrained whole peeled would thin it perfectly and add the missing brightness and freshness/acidity to the savory sweet concentrated tomatoes.
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HarryHaller73

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #55 on: May 30, 2017, 02:50:55 PM »
You've mentioned altering the pH of tomatoes a couple times, can you elaborate on this a little so I understand the theory?


Cooking a fruit or vegetable caramelizes it, brings out the natural sugar which interacts with the citric acid of tomato (both natural and added during canning.  It begins to overpower the acidity.  I should mention that I've not done any lab experiments, as to what the pH levels are after cooking, I should rather say that there is a significant change in flavor.



« Last Edit: May 30, 2017, 04:01:28 PM by HarryHaller73 »

Offline jkb

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #56 on: May 30, 2017, 03:02:23 PM »
I should mention that I've not done any lab experiments, as to what the pH levels are after cooking


I'll do it next time I cook a sauce.

« Last Edit: May 30, 2017, 03:05:55 PM by jkb »
John

Offline hammettjr

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #57 on: May 30, 2017, 06:11:19 PM »
...I do like the blending of 7/11's with whole tomatoes.

I tried it this past weekend and liked it too. I used your ratio of 75% 7/11 to 25% whole tomatoes. In my case, I used Cento Certified. And both types of tomato were thoroughly blended. It did give the cheese a wetter appearance, without it feeling watery when eaten. I'm wondering if I can get away with leaving a portion of the 7/11 unblended, as I think having some Tomato chunks could be good (but I don't want to lose the grease).

2 other things that worked well this weekend:
Romano on top of the sauce instead of in it.
Screen for the LAST portion of the bake.
Matt

Offline hotsawce

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #58 on: May 30, 2017, 06:18:23 PM »
Family were first generation immigrants from Italy and Poland...settled in Greenpoint and what is now little Italy. Second generation moved to the Bronx when it was still Italian. I grew up in Jersey but spent a lot of time in NYC. I don't recall tasting cooked sauces. My family never put cooked sauce on pizza.

I'm not sure there's any of the oldschool places still left in Queens or the Bronx. Dani's House of Pizza is the best I've had in Queens and it's not really old school...and I don't think they cook the sauce...it is my favorite slice though.

It's up for debate. I haven't been to a slice place in recent memory that cooks the sauce. Would be open to trying one, however.

I don't think hotsawce is native.  Where were you born and where did you grow up before you came to Crooklyn?

HarryHaller73

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #59 on: May 30, 2017, 06:25:02 PM »
Family were first generation immigrants from Italy and Poland...settled in Greenpoint and what is now little Italy. Second generation moved to the Bronx when it was still Italian. I grew up in Jersey but spent a lot of time in NYC. I don't recall tasting cooked sauces. My family never put cooked sauce on pizza.

I'm not sure there's any of the oldschool places still left in Queens or the Bronx. Dani's House of Pizza is the best I've had in Queens and it's not really old school...and I don't think they cook the sauce...it is my favorite slice though.

It's up for debate. I haven't been to a slice place in recent memory that cooks the sauce. Would be open to trying one, however.

Try New Park Pizzeria in Howard Beach, Lucia in Flushing, and Margherita in Astoria.  All 3 pizzerias are >50 years old now and cook their sauces, but again, we're talking flavoring by simmer, not hours of boil and it's not marinara sauce.  All 3 also add grated cheese in their sauces.

Pizza sauce has changed past 20 years especially in Manhattan.  Even Joe's changed their sauce.

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