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Author Topic: NY Style sauce discussion  (Read 62266 times)

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HarryHaller73

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #60 on: May 30, 2017, 07:10:18 PM »
The heavy pastes have been around for quite a while, no? I recall Frank Guaquinto mentioned his father used Flotta pizza sauce in Norma's video.

The ones labeled "Heavy Pizza Sauce" like Saporito and Full Red is more modern.  They were made specifically for fast pizzeria workflows, add water, spices and voila, pizza sauce.

Flotta may have been the original paste pizza sauce.  Though I've seen it around, it's not a very popular product. 


« Last Edit: May 30, 2017, 07:20:40 PM by HarryHaller73 »

HarryHaller73

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #61 on: May 30, 2017, 07:18:05 PM »
I would think thinning the extra heavy puree with blended undrained whole peeled would thin it perfectly and add the missing brightness and freshness/acidity to the savory sweet concentrated tomatoes.

7/11 + Saporito is a very popular "uncooked" base for pizza.

They add the Saporito to get the richness as paste is derived from cooking during manufacturing.  Still, better to simmer the combination a bit first if baking in home oven, because you're simply not gonna get the IR heat of a deck oven to fully caramelize the sugars.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2017, 07:19:37 PM by HarryHaller73 »

Offline norma427

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #62 on: May 30, 2017, 08:17:26 PM »
You've mentioned altering the pH of tomatoes a couple times, can you elaborate on this a little so I understand the theory?


Norma - Is Saporito extra-heavy your preference? If so, do you mix any other tomatoes with it?


I've played around with heavy puree's like Saporito/Full red but I find myself coming back to 7/11's for the extra brightness. I spoke with the sales guy at Sansone foods about what his clients are buying, and he said 7/11's with a mix of some type of whole tomatoes makes a good NY sauce, or using a heavy pizza sauce and watering it down if they want to go the more economical route. I do like the blending of 7/11's with whole tomatoes.

Josh,

Yes, Saporito extra-heavy w/basil is my preference, and no I don't mix any whole tomatoes in.  Of course with other added ingredients.  I also like 7/11's and 7/11's and Saporito mixed. 

Really there are many pizza sauces I like.

Norma


Offline JD

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #63 on: May 31, 2017, 07:55:38 AM »
I would think thinning the extra heavy puree with blended undrained whole peeled would thin it perfectly and add the missing brightness and freshness/acidity to the savory sweet concentrated tomatoes.

I did this with full red, but not Saporito extra heavy. I suspect you'd need to add water to Saporito unless you milled the whole peeled tomatoes with a very fine mesh size to get it watery. The full-red/saporito blend was good if I recall, but that was a while ago.

Cooking a fruit or vegetable caramelizes it, brings out the natural sugar which interacts with the citric acid of tomato (both natural and added during canning.  It begins to overpower the acidity.  I should mention that I've not done any lab experiments, as to what the pH levels are after cooking, I should rather say that there is a significant change in flavor.

I'll do it next time I cook a sauce.

I'd be interested in seeing those results. I've always felt my sunday sauce got more acidic as I cooked it. I do agree there is a big difference in flavor in cooked vs. uncooked.

Josh,

Yes, Saporito extra-heavy w/basil is my preference, and no I don't mix any whole tomatoes in.  Of course with other added ingredients.  I also like 7/11's and 7/11's and Saporito mixed. 


Thank you for the confirmation Norma, I appreciate and respect your opinion!

Experience cannot be taught.

-Josh

Offline norma427

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #64 on: May 31, 2017, 10:49:27 AM »


I'd be interested in seeing those results. I've always felt my sunday sauce got more acidic as I cooked it. I do agree there is a big difference in flavor in cooked vs. uncooked.


Josh,

I also have a pH meter.  I could also take some pH readings.

Norma

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HarryHaller73

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #65 on: May 31, 2017, 12:09:34 PM »
I did this with full red, but not Saporito extra heavy. I suspect you'd need to add water to Saporito unless you milled the whole peeled tomatoes with a very fine mesh size to get it watery. The full-red/saporito blend was good if I recall, but that was a while ago.

I'd be interested in seeing those results. I've always felt my sunday sauce got more acidic as I cooked it. I do agree there is a big difference in flavor in cooked vs. uncooked.


Could very well be more acidic in pH with cooking.  There is certainly a change in flavor, but I'm not a scientist. 



Offline bregent

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #66 on: May 31, 2017, 12:17:44 PM »
>I'd be interested in seeing those results. I've always felt my sunday sauce got more acidic as
>I cooked it. I do agree there is a big difference in flavor in cooked vs. uncooked.

Sauces that cook for hours like Sunday sauce will get more acidic as the water evaporates and volume is reduced, the acids become more concentrated. I doubt you'll notice this with a short 15-30 minute simmer. I also doubt you'll get any caramelization of sugars with a short, low simmer. Most sugars don't begin to caramelize until at least 230F. Something else is going on. There are so many compounds in tomatoes it's not hard to imagine that some changes take place if they are heated.  I also think one reason many places might simmer sauce is to extract essential oils of any herbs they add and allow those flavors to blend quicker. 

« Last Edit: May 31, 2017, 12:21:02 PM by bregent »
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Offline jkb

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #67 on: May 31, 2017, 12:30:35 PM »
but I'm not a scientist.


Have you played one on tv or slept in a Holiday Inn Express lately?
John

HarryHaller73

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #68 on: May 31, 2017, 12:56:15 PM »

Have you played one on tv or slept in a Holiday Inn Express lately?

Nope, not like most of you guys with chemistry labs in your kitchens and analyzing yeast molecules

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #69 on: May 31, 2017, 01:04:59 PM »
My thinking on cooked sauces has evolved a lot in the past few months. On the square pies I've been making, I definitely prefer a cooked sauce. I've been using a combination of crushed and whole peeled with a good amount of calabrian chile oil, mashed fresh garlic, some dried oregano, and S&P. I haven't really paid attention to how long I've been cooking it. Less than an hour over a very low heat.

Edit: forgot to list fresh garlic in the recipe.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2017, 03:26:04 PM by TXCraig1 »
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Offline jkb

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #70 on: May 31, 2017, 03:13:35 PM »
My thinking on cooked sauces has evolved a lot in the past few months. On the square pies I've been making, I definitely prefer a cooked sauce. I've been using a combination of crushed and whole peeled with a good amount of calabrian chile oil, some dried oregano, and S&P. I haven't really paid attention to how long I've been cooking it. Less than an hour over a very low heat.

I consider a cooked sauce a must for a square pie.  I haven't made a NY pie in over a year,  but I like to simmer some garlic, tomato paste, oregano, and anchovy in olive oil and add that to 7/11 for a NY sauce.
John

Offline hammettjr

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #71 on: May 31, 2017, 07:28:43 PM »
I'm not sure where to post this, but I'll go with here.

I just had a very eye-opening experience at NY Pizza Suprema. I don't think I've had a slice quite like this before. And it was very good.

I could almost (almost, but I'd be wrong) say that you could remove the mozzarella without it impacting the slice. The flavor was so overwhelmingly dominated by the sauce/tomato and the hard cheese. The taste was sweet and rich.

Oregano was visible, having risen to the top of the slice, but it took the backseat to the other flavors.

The sauce had small chunks of tomato in it...and a big chunk that happily fell onto my plate. It was a chunk of plum tomato and skin. It tasted like a really good tomato.

I wish I could could give more details about it. I'm wondering if they only use romano or if there's parm in it too.
Matt

Offline hammettjr

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #72 on: May 31, 2017, 07:34:05 PM »
Craig, JKB, have you guys tried your cooked sauce on a round pie?
Matt

Offline invertedisdead

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #73 on: May 31, 2017, 08:53:03 PM »
I'm not sure where to post this, but I'll go with here.

I just had a very eye-opening experience at NY Pizza Suprema. I don't think I've had a slice quite like this before. And it was very good.

I could almost (almost, but I'd be wrong) say that you could remove the mozzarella without it impacting the slice. The flavor was so overwhelmingly dominated by the sauce/tomato and the hard cheese. The taste was sweet and rich.

Oregano was visible, having risen to the top of the slice, but it took the backseat to the other flavors.

The sauce had small chunks of tomato in it...and a big chunk that happily fell onto my plate. It was a chunk of plum tomato and skin. It tasted like a really good tomato.

I wish I could could give more details about it. I'm wondering if they only use romano or if there's parm in it too.

Any garlic flavor? I'm trying to figure the best way to go about a sweet sauce? Just table sugar?
the proof is in the pizza

Offline hammettjr

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #74 on: May 31, 2017, 09:05:48 PM »
Any garlic flavor? I'm trying to figure the best way to go about a sweet sauce? Just table sugar?

Interesting, I didn't even think about garlic until you mentioned it, so it certainly didn't stick out. I'd guess some table sugar. But when I tasted the big tomato chunk, it had a nice natural sweetness, so I think the quality of the tomato is the biggest factor. (The tomato was far sweeter and superior to the cento I used to use.) To be clear, this didn't taste like a sugar bomb. A romano bomb perhaps.


Matt

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Offline hotsawce

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #75 on: May 31, 2017, 09:19:21 PM »
Pizza Suprema is great. Gotta get the upside down square there next time...

I'm not sure where to post this, but I'll go with here.

I just had a very eye-opening experience at NY Pizza Suprema. I don't think I've had a slice quite like this before. And it was very good.

I could almost (almost, but I'd be wrong) say that you could remove the mozzarella without it impacting the slice. The flavor was so overwhelmingly dominated by the sauce/tomato and the hard cheese. The taste was sweet and rich.

Oregano was visible, having risen to the top of the slice, but it took the backseat to the other flavors.

The sauce had small chunks of tomato in it...and a big chunk that happily fell onto my plate. It was a chunk of plum tomato and skin. It tasted like a really good tomato.

I wish I could could give more details about it. I'm wondering if they only use romano or if there's parm in it too.

Offline HansB

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #76 on: May 31, 2017, 10:20:27 PM »
Pizza Suprema is great. Gotta get the upside down square there next time...

Hmm, I'll have to try that.
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Offline hammettjr

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #77 on: June 01, 2017, 06:26:08 AM »
Pizza Suprema is great. Gotta get the upside down square there next time...

Will do. Do they use the same sauce for the round and square pies?
Matt

Offline invertedisdead

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #78 on: June 01, 2017, 11:50:51 AM »
I thought the cooked sauce I made yesterday tasted great by itself but it didn't do it for me on the pizza. Worked really well with my garlic knots though.
the proof is in the pizza

Offline bregent

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #79 on: June 01, 2017, 12:28:12 PM »
>I'm trying to figure the best way to go about a sweet sauce? Just table sugar?

I add a little plain white sugar to my sauce if too acidic. But years ago I used to add carrots to cooked pasta sauces to add sweetness - carrots have a lot of sugars.
Bob

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