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Author Topic: NY Style sauce discussion  (Read 60322 times)

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Offline JD

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #20 on: May 24, 2017, 09:34:15 AM »
Thanks Matt, I'll buy some next time I head to Sansone. I'm out of Grande already so it's time for a trip.

Regarding sauce, I've been experimenting for over a year now just to come up with a NY pizzeria quality sauce recipe. This is by far the hardest part of pizza making so far in my opinion. I feel like I'm pretty close now, especially after the stars aligned a few weeks ago: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=34538.msg473831#msg473831

It's my opinion that there are some things you must use to get a sauce, and some variables. A quality NJ tomato like 7-11's is probably the most important. Oregano just has to be in the sauce, and thinness is pretty important to get a good even cheese boil. I put oil in my sauce too because of the past posts of Tom Lehmann recommending it https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3735.msg237549#msg237549 Whether or not it helps, I didn't really do a side-by-side comparison so I cannot say. I do try to put a neutral flavored oil in though, I don't think EVOO is right or economical for pizzerias to use. I think it's beneficial overall.

I also put salt, black pepper, garlic powder, a dash of basil though I'm not positive it's necessary, and romano cheese. I purchased sauce from a local pizzeria that I admire and there is without a doubt a hard cheese in it. After speaking with a few ex-pizza guys, romano is/was pretty commonly used between them.

One thing I've been curious about lately is what specific brands of spices pizzerias use, as I'm sure they are different from the stuff you find in a supermarket. Maybe that's the final piece of the puzzle I'm looking for?

While KISS is generally a good practice for pizza, I think NY Style street sauce is a little more complicated than tomatoes straight out of a can with some salt & oregano, unless its a NY Margherita slice...



Before coming to this thread JD asked about where I source Sicilian oregano and whether I thought it was an authentic NY slice flavor.

I buy it at Sansone foods on Long Island (Garden City), which I highly recommend going to for anyone in the area. When I first tasted the oregano it instantly brought a familiar flavor that I hadn't tasted in my pizza before. NY pizzerias of course vary, with some being more oregano heavy than others, but since I started using it, I definitely noticed a similar flavor on some of the local pizzerias I've sampled. That said, I can't imagine that the pizzerias are buying dried stalks of oregano. But given many of their other ingredients are superior to what's available in the supermarket, it's a safe assumption that places that choose to have oregano be a noticeable part of their flavor, are using something good. Here's a link with a picture of what I'm using.

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=47325.0
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Offline invertedisdead

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #21 on: May 24, 2017, 09:52:51 AM »
I agree sauce is the hardest part, everything else seems easy enough. It's one of those things where we are using the same relative ingredients, but the end result can come out dramatically different just based on ratios and spice quality. I'm curious how many shops are just adding MSG...
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Offline invertedisdead

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #22 on: May 24, 2017, 05:37:08 PM »
Well I'm going in - been liking these generic San Marzanos. Going to reduce this juice down to paste, then fry that in EVOO; and add that to the puréed tomatoes with raw fresh crushed garlic, dried oregano, more EVOO, and Pecorino Romano. I may add black pepper or chile flake... Or both.

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Offline hammettjr

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #23 on: May 24, 2017, 09:40:51 PM »
Regarding sauce, I've been experimenting for over a year now just to come up with a NY pizzeria quality sauce recipe. This is by far the hardest part of pizza making so far in my opinion. I feel like I'm pretty close now, especially after the stars aligned a few weeks ago: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=34538.msg473831#msg473831


Thanks Josh. After Norma posted the video earlier I started rethinking my thinness. And was thinking about thinning my 7/11 with a blended whole San Marzano. It's possible I was remembering your thread. 75/25 sounds like a good thing for me to try.

I agree with everything you've said about your sauce (romano, garlic, oregano etc, based largely on what I've learned from Norma, her videos with Frank, and from Harry.) I think you'll really like the supercharged oregano.

The other thing that could be a missing link is the quality of hard cheese. We had this discussion recently on the melt thread.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2017, 09:46:47 PM by hammettjr »
Matt

Offline invertedisdead

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #24 on: May 24, 2017, 10:14:40 PM »
I thought it came out really well. I still have mixed feelings on the garlic. It adds a a nice savory note, and I like the slight heat it adds too, up but it also seems to steal the tomatoes spotlight the easiest. I may try infusing the garlic in oil and compare, though it definitely adds a different flavor that way than just adding in raw minced garlic.

I ended up adding 1 tsp of pecorino Romano, 1/2 tsp of oregano, 1/8 tsp black pepper & crushed red pepper and one minced clove of garlic, about 2 tbsp EVOO.


« Last Edit: May 24, 2017, 10:16:46 PM by invertedisdead »
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Offline hammettjr

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #25 on: May 24, 2017, 10:34:24 PM »
I thought it came out really well. I still have mixed feelings on the garlic. It adds a a nice savory note, and I like the slight heat it adds too, up but it also seems to steal the tomatoes spotlight the easiest. I may try infusing the garlic in oil and compare, though it definitely adds a different flavor that way than just adding in raw minced garlic.

I ended up adding 1 tsp of pecorino Romano, 1/2 tsp of oregano, 1/8 tsp black pepper & crushed red pepper and one minced clove of garlic, about 2 tbsp EVOO.

Good stuff. Do you know the volume of sauce you made?
Matt

Offline invertedisdead

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #26 on: May 24, 2017, 10:40:51 PM »
Good stuff. Do you know the volume of sauce you made?

Not sure on volume, I made a square pie and used a big spoon to spread instead of my normal ladles for round pies so hard to say; but it probably was on the smaller side as these whole peeled are packed in a lot of juice which doesn't add much volume at all to the puréed tomatoes.  I used almost the whole can on one pie. I'd like to try some of the Stanislaus 70/30 tomato filets as it should have the fresher brighter whole peeled taste but with more tomato product as they can pack a lot more tomato filets than whole tomatoes.
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Offline Josh123

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #27 on: May 24, 2017, 11:43:39 PM »
I think NY sauce needs to have oregano and black pepper in it. Those are key. 7/11 is king of NY sauce base. Romano is good, olive oil, as well as garlic powder. It's never just crushed tomato and salt.

Offline jsaras

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #28 on: May 25, 2017, 12:09:00 AM »
I think NY sauce needs to have oregano and black pepper in it. Those are key. 7/11 is king of NY sauce base. Romano is good, olive oil, as well as garlic powder. It's never just crushed tomato and salt.

Some would say that black pepper should be reserved for coal oven NY pizzas, but what do I know?
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Offline rparker

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #29 on: May 25, 2017, 12:18:15 AM »
I have to back off the garlic some as my crust gets more dense and reduces the sauce boil. It seems to linger and not brighten up unless I get a massive boil. Might make next without and slowly climb from there like the other things. I was on a assive streak on the sauce front, but not good on 3 or 4 of the last 6 or so I've made.

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Offline invertedisdead

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #30 on: May 25, 2017, 12:21:51 AM »
Some would say that black pepper should be reserved for coal oven NY pizzas, but what do I know?

Like who? Someone posted a clip from Di Fara today with black pepper in their sauce too.
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Offline hammettjr

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #31 on: May 25, 2017, 07:15:31 AM »
Like who? Someone posted a clip from Di Fara today with black pepper in their sauce too.

Like most ingredients I suspect some use it, some don't. I remember a video where the guy from Lucali eats at a few pizzerias, and it's mentioned that he adds black pepper to his coal oven slices, but crushed red pepper to street slices. No idea if that really indicates anything though.

Obviously all ingredients need to be balanced, but I'm very careful with both black pepper and garlic powder as too much ruins a pie for me. Oregano, romano, sugar and oil seem to have more leeway, I guess because they're not as strong.

« Last Edit: May 25, 2017, 07:17:18 AM by hammettjr »
Matt

Offline hammettjr

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #32 on: May 25, 2017, 07:57:19 AM »
I think NY sauce needs to have oregano and black pepper in it. Those are key. 7/11 is king of NY sauce base. Romano is good, olive oil, as well as garlic powder. It's never just crushed tomato and salt.

Josh, can you give us more info about oregano from your perspective as a pizzeria operator. Is your oregano similar to a typical oregano from a grocery store? How many different types of oregano does your supplier offer?

« Last Edit: May 25, 2017, 08:00:58 AM by hammettjr »
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HarryHaller73

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #33 on: May 25, 2017, 08:31:52 AM »
NY sauce can be applied raw in a deck oven, as the IR heat will penetrate everything and get you proper cook.  Though my favorite slice joints pre-cook sauce and when I say cook, I don't mean a rolling boil for hour, but a light simmer.

For home oven, I'd simmer the sauce for 15-30 minutes to get a head start to incorporate flavors and help convert the pH.


Offline invertedisdead

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #34 on: May 25, 2017, 12:30:50 PM »
Like most ingredients I suspect some use it, some don't. I remember a video where the guy from Lucali eats at a few pizzerias, and it's mentioned that he adds black pepper to his coal oven slices, but crushed red pepper to street slices. No idea if that really indicates anything though.

Obviously all ingredients need to be balanced, but I'm very careful with both black pepper and garlic powder as too much ruins a pie for me. Oregano, romano, sugar and oil seem to have more leeway, I guess because they're not as strong.

He adds the pepper pre or post bake?

I have to be careful with the Romano too, I wonder how many are using real Pecorino Romano versus domestic cows milk Romano.
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Offline hotsawce

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #35 on: May 25, 2017, 03:06:58 PM »
For NY style sauce, Joe's is the standard.

It tastes very minimally doctored up to me. It runs on the sweeter side, but in a good way. I know they use Nina brand tomatoes, and my taste buds tell me they add a very small amount of sugar to the tomatoes. That should be it.

In general, pecorino is always added before the mozzarella on top of the sauce...not in it. I also don't think there is any oregano in the tomatoes. That's why they have it in shakers.

Offline invertedisdead

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #36 on: May 25, 2017, 03:16:36 PM »
I know you know just shaking on post bake oregano doesn't really allow its essential oils to bloom so it doesn't seem ideal, right? Unless you don't think oregano is a quintessential NY slice ingredient?
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HarryHaller73

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #37 on: May 25, 2017, 06:14:04 PM »
For NY style sauce, Joe's is the standard.

It tastes very minimally doctored up to me. It runs on the sweeter side, but in a good way. I know they use Nina brand tomatoes, and my taste buds tell me they add a very small amount of sugar to the tomatoes. That should be it.

In general, pecorino is always added before the mozzarella on top of the sauce...not in it. I also don't think there is any oregano in the tomatoes. That's why they have it in shakers.

Joe's may be the standard Manhattan slice, but that doesn't say much anymore being that Manhattan is now the mall borough of NYC.  I also know Joe's changed their sauce in the early 2000's.   I lived on Jones St. off Bleecker from 1996-2004 and ate there often.  They serve a minimalist sauce now for the large transplant/tourist clientele and a tray of spices for people to customize their own flavors -> caters to broader audience via dilution, born out of the gentrification trends of the 2000's.


« Last Edit: May 25, 2017, 11:34:52 PM by HarryHaller73 »

Offline hammettjr

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #38 on: May 25, 2017, 06:42:55 PM »
He adds the pepper pre or post bake?


Post bake on slices he's buying at other pizzerias.
Matt

Offline hammettjr

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #39 on: May 25, 2017, 06:45:13 PM »
NY sauce can be applied raw in a deck oven, as the IR heat will penetrate everything and get you proper cook.  Though my favorite slice joints pre-cook sauce and when I say cook, I don't mean a rolling boil for hour, but a light simmer.

For home oven, I'd simmer the sauce for 15-30 minutes to get a head start to incorporate flavors and help convert the pH.

Can you recommend a place that has a pre-cooked sauce? I'm hoping to get to Margherita or Amore (really trying for Margherita) towards the end of June. Do they pre-cook? How is their sauce?
Matt

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