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Offline invertedisdead

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #200 on: July 19, 2017, 01:06:49 AM »
the crappy dolla slice places use the same tomato out of a can workflow.  Most pizzerias know how to make dough, it's the sauce that sells the pizza.

I'm still working on coming up with a great sauce. I remember every pizza place being identifiable by the sauce. It's not as easy as people make it out to be to figure out a killer pizza sauce though. It's kind of hard to predict how it will actually come out on a cooked pizza.
the proof is in the pizza

Offline rparker

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #201 on: July 19, 2017, 06:36:22 AM »
.........Most pizzerias know how to make dough.......
Down here it's the crust that gets screwed up big time. Well the other stuff, too. Most of the town went to that "elite" thin, which is OK if done well, but usually isn't.

Offline norma427

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #202 on: July 19, 2017, 07:18:46 AM »
Just a few comments from a man that came to market yesterday to try the pizza.  He fussed about about how local people were telling him to try the market pizza.  I let him taste the sauce before it was thinned down.  He said that was the secret to the pizza.  I said it isn't just the sauce, but the way dressings are applied, the crust, the way the pizza is opened and baked, and everything has to be in balance to have a good tasting pizza.  After the man tried two slices he purchased a whole pizza to take home.  He was so full of himself in telling Liz and I how rich him and his family are and telling me he has a proposal for me to open a pizzeria instead of making pizzas at market.  I asked what else the proposal was and what he basically told me it was for him to open only a take out pizza business, with only two people and for me to make all of the pizzas.  I said that is nuts because there is no way I could make pizzas everyday.  :-D  He wants to have a meeting with me, but in the end know it won't go anywhere.  He also asked Liz if she would be willing to make the pizzas.  Liz said no way because making pizzas is too hard of work to do  :).

Norma

Offline rparker

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #203 on: July 19, 2017, 07:42:44 AM »
I'm still working on coming up with a great sauce. I remember every pizza place being identifiable by the sauce. It's not as easy as people make it out to be to figure out a killer pizza sauce though. It's kind of hard to predict how it will actually come out on a cooked pizza.
(note) Below ended up being a more generalized dialing in and what the importance of a specific and consistent crust made to me in my kitchen, stone, ovens, etc, as it pertained to my sauce quest.  (end note)

Early on in my quest, I was able to latched on to a thread or a small hint of the flavor that hit my pizza memory button. It would not happen every time, but enough to keep going forward. I never really understood how the crust can affect the flavor. I don't mean the confluence of crust flavor with sauce and cheese (and so on). I mean how the crust helps to cook the sauce (in our ovens).

I'm sure this analogy is technically wrong, but it does illustrate what I'm feeling and seeing in my oven(s). The crust acts like a capacitor in electricity. It gets the heat from the stone and uses much of it to cook itself. It also passes through some of that heat to the sauce. In a way, it helps control the heat. If all is well and what's coming from above is good, the sauce cooks a certain way. If it's too thin or too wide open and too airy, the crust passes more heat to the sauce and it boils differently. If the stone steel is too thin or not saturated, it runs out of heat and less heat comes up through and makes you rely on top heat. That's bad territory for us baking at home for reasons hashed out often.

My most recent version of dough regimen (still not posted) does a lot better job of this than the one I posted in January. Bake to bake is ridiculously consistent. The biggest fail potential is a combination of not being strong enough to stay dense(ish), mostly due to the high amount of yeast activity and not controlling the crumb air/gas pocket sizes at stretch. What this does and how it relates is that I had a bake to bake, batch to batch canvas in which to develop my sauce. It became a matter of time to dial in. It as some really valuable time, too, as it also heed me identify a couple of failure points of my sauce and ho to avoid. All this never would have happened it I didn't make other things consistent somewhat close to a zero-change environment. 

I know a week to week to bake dough and pie style is not your thing. It's just that it made things so much easier. The result is that I can use my same sauce for .070TF to .0975TF and have only minimal taste differences in the end. It ended up working the other way, too. Nailing my sauce and has allowed me to explore bake protocols with a big degree of confidence knowing my sauce would be within reason. In the end, it helps for diagnosis, too, in case something does go wrong.

Sorry for the long winded post.

Offline rparker

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #204 on: July 20, 2017, 12:09:23 PM »
Just a few comments from a man that came to market yesterday to try the pizza.  He fussed about about how local people were telling him to try the market pizza.  I let him taste the sauce before it was thinned down.  He said that was the secret to the pizza.  I said it isn't just the sauce, but the way dressings are applied, the crust, the way the pizza is opened and baked, and everything has to be in balance to have a good tasting pizza.  After the man tried two slices he purchased a whole pizza to take home.  He was so full of himself in telling Liz and I how rich him and his family are and telling me he has a proposal for me to open a pizzeria instead of making pizzas at market.  I asked what else the proposal was and what he basically told me it was for him to open only a take out pizza business, with only two people and for me to make all of the pizzas.  I said that is nuts because there is no way I could make pizzas everyday.  :-D  He wants to have a meeting with me, but in the end know it won't go anywhere.  He also asked Liz if she would be willing to make the pizzas.  Liz said no way because making pizzas is too hard of work to do  :).

Norma
I forgot to respond to this the other day. You get yourself into some great situations there. All good stuff. I can picture that guy in my head. I betchyu he's got half dozen failed pyramid schemes under his belt. Good stuff, Norma.  :-D

The next guy - tem him you didn't go dumpster diving to make HIM money.  ;D 

Roy

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Offline rparker

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #205 on: July 20, 2017, 12:33:58 PM »
Anyone using or have tried a teensy bit of cayenne pepper in the sauce? A very small amount, like what might be used in some ATK recipe to add a tiny touch of zing to the flavor. Nobody knows it's there kind of thing. 

Roy
I stepped up to the plate and became the gunniea pig. Now I can't back away from the plate. Boy oh boy oh boy oh boy. Exactly what I hoped for. I used 1/64th of cayenne pepper. (Very small amount.) It delivered in a big way.

Here's today's sauce, which was enough for 135g. (about 4-1/2 ounces)
7/11 tomatoes (slightly "pulsified" 3 days ago)
1 tsp - Olive Oil
1/2 tsp - Water (viscosity purposes)
3/16 tsp - Oregano
1/16 tsp - Italian Seasoning
1/4 tsp - Mint*
3/4 tsp - Sugar*
1/8 tsp - Salt
3/16 tsp - Ground Black Pepper
1/64th tsp - Cayenne Pepper

This delivered in spades. Not at all too spicy. I could hide the cayenne existence from anyone in small amounts like this, but delivers a tough of spiciness to a different part of the palate. It was my sauce for sure, but delivered aggressively. I don't know how else to describe it. I whole heartedly give it high recommendations. THIS is the brightness I was looking for when experimenting with a few kinds of Citric Acid. I even mentioned it, but never tried. It's probably good I didn't try it, because I got it to stand out without it just makes it better when I added it. 

I do not believe I would add it to any sautéing of pastes and stuff. Crushed Red was bad enough on me when I tried it.

The tomatoes were 3 days removed from the freezer. The taste changes, as everyone knows. My adjustments for this are reflected in the measurements above. They were marked by the *'s. The sugar was increased twice. Once for balance of the cayenne and once for being 33 days out of the freezer. The total additional sugar was 1/4tsp. I increased the mint by 1/16th tsp. I've done this before, so knew what to expect.

One final note. I always make my sauce within 2 hours of launch, and no go to the fridge. Time and cold changes everything.

All that, and satellite radio played Disco Duck. Does it get any better?  :-D :-D

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
« Last Edit: July 20, 2017, 07:46:39 PM by rparker »

Offline norma427

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #206 on: July 20, 2017, 04:40:17 PM »
I forgot to respond to this the other day. You get yourself into some great situations there. All good stuff. I can picture that guy in my head. I betchyu he's got half dozen failed pyramid schemes under his belt. Good stuff, Norma.  :-D

The next guy - tem him you didn't go dumpster diving to make HIM money.  ;D 

Roy

Roy,

You might not believe how many proposals I have had, and they all had to do with pizza.  My good friend “Funky” came not to long after the other guy.  He said he also wants to put up money to open something like the other guy mentioned.  Funky has been a friend of mine since running the caramel popcorn stand.  At least Funky said to first get a lawyer and say what I would want.   I probably will fade into the nowhere land after stopping to make pizzas at market.

Lol about telling the next guy I didn't go dumpster diving to make him money.  :-D


Sorry to get off-topic.  Didn't even say anything about NY sauce.   :-[

Norma

HarryHaller73

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #207 on: July 21, 2017, 08:38:15 AM »
Down here it's the crust that gets screwed up big time. Well the other stuff, too. Most of the town went to that "elite" thin, which is OK if done well, but usually isn't.

It's the same with bagels.  I can't find decent NY style bagels outside of NY.

I spent 3 weeks in LA recently, and tried lots of so called "NY style" pizzas, including the LA Joe's which is related to the original Joe's in NY.  The crust is very different, so is the sauce.  I tasted weird hints of cinnamon.  Even the hotdogs in NY taste unique compared to hot dog stands in LA, might be the water which they only change once a month in NYC.



« Last Edit: July 21, 2017, 08:55:17 AM by HarryHaller73 »

Offline rparker

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #208 on: July 21, 2017, 10:18:37 AM »
It's the same with bagels.  I can't find decent NY style bagels outside of NY.

I spent 3 weeks in LA recently, and tried lots of so called "NY style" pizzas, including the LA Joe's which is related to the original Joe's in NY.  The crust is very different, so is the sauce.  I tasted weird hints of cinnamon.  Even the hotdogs in NY taste unique compared to hot dog stands in LA, might be the water which they only change once a month in NYC.
There were 4 common food items I kept hearing from my fellow transplants when I moved down south in 1985. Pizza, subs(rolls), bagels and Buffalo wings. We were fortunate to eventually get a bagel shop opened up guy from NYC. Alas, most niche hole in the wall breakfast food places go under here. The lines on weekend mornings were impressive, though.

Too bad you couldn't find a representative pizza sample some of our SoCal friends who have never been east of the Rockies to try.

Offline hammettjr

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #209 on: March 04, 2018, 02:57:15 PM »
For the first time in all my pizza-making, I cooked my sauce. And results were very promising.

Consistency look - It looked like the NY pizzeria sauce I've purchased previously. It was very thin, but without the watery look of a freshly opened can. And the shine from the oil looked just right. Somehow different from my usual.

Consistency bake - worked really well, with a nice resulting melt

Flavor meld - super interesting, I can see this resulting in the "I cant taste any individual ingredients, but there's a lot going on" kind of sauce. Only problem was even though I used half the onion called for, it was too strong.

My Question: I like the oregano to stand out, so assuming the flavors blend together when simmering (still have to try it without the onion), what's the best way to adjust? 2 alternatives I'm considering:
Option 1 - Put the oregano in later in the process, directly into the tomato instead of the oil at the start.
Option 2 - Save half the oregano and add it just before I top the pizza

My sauce is described below. It was based on Kenji's recipe with a few adjustments.

1 Tbs EVOO and 1 Tbs butter melted in a pot. Added and cooked the following for about 3 minutes on medium low:
1 tsp oregano, 1/2 tsp dry basil, 1/16 tsp red pepper flakes, a few grated cloves of garlic, 1/4 tsp salt.

Added 28oz can of Cento San Marzano that was pulsed in blender (but accidently pulsed too much, so no chunks).
1/2 tsp sugar
half a yellow onion
Simmered for 50 minutes then removed the onion.

After removing I added 1 Tbs Romano, which I forgot to do with the simmer.


Matt

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Offline invertedisdead

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #210 on: March 05, 2018, 01:21:44 AM »
For the first time in all my pizza-making, I cooked my sauce. And results were very promising.

Consistency look - It looked like the NY pizzeria sauce I've purchased previously. It was very thin, but without the watery look of a freshly opened can. And the shine from the oil looked just right. Somehow different from my usual.

Consistency bake - worked really well, with a nice resulting melt

Flavor meld - super interesting, I can see this resulting in the "I cant taste any individual ingredients, but there's a lot going on" kind of sauce. Only problem was even though I used half the onion called for, it was too strong.

My Question: I like the oregano to stand out, so assuming the flavors blend together when simmering (still have to try it without the onion), what's the best way to adjust? 2 alternatives I'm considering:
Option 1 - Put the oregano in later in the process, directly into the tomato instead of the oil at the start.
Option 2 - Save half the oregano and add it just before I top the pizza

My sauce is described below. It was based on Kenji's recipe with a few adjustments.

1 Tbs EVOO and 1 Tbs butter melted in a pot. Added and cooked the following for about 3 minutes on medium low:
1 tsp oregano, 1/2 tsp dry basil, 1/16 tsp red pepper flakes, a few grated cloves of garlic, 1/4 tsp salt.

Added 28oz can of Cento San Marzano that was pulsed in blender (but accidently pulsed too much, so no chunks).
1/2 tsp sugar
half a yellow onion
Simmered for 50 minutes then removed the onion.

After removing I added 1 Tbs Romano, which I forgot to do with the simmer.

Welcome to the club! Killer looking slice, always great to hear when people are getting closer.

I like to add the oregano with the tomato instead of the oil myself. Sometimes I simmer half of the oregano with the sauce, and then add the rest of the oregano when it comes off the heat or when I'm topping the pie.

I don't use onion in my sauce and use a decent bit more sugar. Still tinkering though for sure.
the proof is in the pizza

Offline rparker

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #211 on: March 05, 2018, 07:39:28 AM »
For the first time in all my pizza-making, I cooked my sauce. And results were very promising.

Consistency look - It looked like the NY pizzeria sauce I've purchased previously. It was very thin, but without the watery look of a freshly opened can. And the shine from the oil looked just right. Somehow different from my usual.

Consistency bake - worked really well, with a nice resulting melt

Flavor meld - super interesting, I can see this resulting in the "I cant taste any individual ingredients, but there's a lot going on" kind of sauce. Only problem was even though I used half the onion called for, it was too strong.

My Question: I like the oregano to stand out, so assuming the flavors blend together when simmering (still have to try it without the onion), what's the best way to adjust? 2 alternatives I'm considering:
Option 1 - Put the oregano in later in the process, directly into the tomato instead of the oil at the start.
Option 2 - Save half the oregano and add it just before I top the pizza

My sauce is described below. It was based on Kenji's recipe with a few adjustments.

1 Tbs EVOO and 1 Tbs butter melted in a pot. Added and cooked the following for about 3 minutes on medium low:
1 tsp oregano, 1/2 tsp dry basil, 1/16 tsp red pepper flakes, a few grated cloves of garlic, 1/4 tsp salt.

Added 28oz can of Cento San Marzano that was pulsed in blender (but accidently pulsed too much, so no chunks).
1/2 tsp sugar
half a yellow onion
Simmered for 50 minutes then removed the onion.

After removing I added 1 Tbs Romano, which I forgot to do with the simmer.
I have had the heat from the crushed red peppers take over a sauce any time I have added it to the oil when cooking the garlic. Did you experience any of that?

Dosn't oregano sort of peak at about 30 seconds in the oil?

There was a point in time when cooking tomatoes for a sauce that they were at their brightest. Bright, as in that brightness we get when our tomatoes cook enough on the pizza. I only tried a few times for NY Style, but was never able to hold on to that brightness. Even removed it from the pan and vaguely remember once going to freezer for a few minutes to slow the cooking down. I have not, however, under-cooked in hopes that the tomatoes still had that brightness deep within, somehow.

How much sauce was on that 14"-er?

No rule about putting on oregano in two different stages. There are distinctive outcomes from each. Why not?   

Offline hammettjr

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #212 on: March 05, 2018, 08:53:32 AM »
I have had the heat from the crushed red peppers take over a sauce any time I have added it to the oil when cooking the garlic. Did you experience any of that?

Dosn't oregano sort of peak at about 30 seconds in the oil?

There was a point in time when cooking tomatoes for a sauce that they were at their brightest. Bright, as in that brightness we get when our tomatoes cook enough on the pizza. I only tried a few times for NY Style, but was never able to hold on to that brightness. Even removed it from the pan and vaguely remember once going to freezer for a few minutes to slow the cooking down. I have not, however, under-cooked in hopes that the tomatoes still had that brightness deep within, somehow.

How much sauce was on that 14"-er?

No rule about putting on oregano in two different stages. There are distinctive outcomes from each. Why not?   

The pepper flakes were a bit of a concern going in, but I didn't notice them at all.  1/16 tsp for a 28oz can isn't much. (Then again my tastes were thrown off as the whole thing kindof tasted like an onion bagel.)

I have no idea about the science of frying herbs, but 3 minutes did seem like a long time.

Sauce amount was probably 3/4 cup or so. I overstretched the skin, so it was closer to 15".

On the brightness thing, a number of people here have mentioned adding uncooked crushed tomato at the end, pre bake. I had some 7/11 on standby but decided not to use them.  I want to do a better job of pulsing the tomato to leave some chunks, that may be all I need.

I'm thinking I'll taste the sauce just before topping the pie and add oregano, basil or sugar as needed.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2018, 08:55:31 AM by hammettjr »
Matt

Offline thezaman

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #213 on: March 05, 2018, 09:58:32 AM »
i agree a very nice looking slice.looks like it came from a slice joint!

Offline invertedisdead

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #214 on: March 05, 2018, 08:58:49 PM »
I have had the heat from the crushed red peppers take over a sauce any time I have added it to the oil when cooking the garlic. Did you experience any of that?

Dosn't oregano sort of peak at about 30 seconds in the oil?

I've had the same experience. I know Kenji said he prefers the flavor of adding the pepper flakes to the oil, but it makes my sauce too spicy.  I granulated my red pepper flakes though, so perhaps I'm adding more than I think I am. Agree about not giving oregano too long to bloom. I think garlic, red pepper flake, and oregano all cook relatively quick in oil.
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Offline Chi_Guy

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #215 on: March 05, 2018, 10:23:04 PM »
I've played around with a lot of fancy sauce recipes but last week I tried and loved this unassuming recipe for a Jet's Pizza sauce clone (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8247.240):

14 oz of Cento diced tomatoes
1/8 tsp of granulated garlic
2 tsp of oregano
2 small pinches of kosher salt

I used diced Cento tomatoes in a box because for some reason they are much sweeter than the crushed variety.  I first pureed the tomatoes then added the spices and salt and marinated for a couple of hours before baking.  This was a very basic sauce but its consistency and tomatoey flavor were surprisingly close to a classic NY slice.  I found that putting the oregano in the sauce brought out a more complex herbaceous flavor than when it goes on the pizza.  I'd use a tad less oregano next time but this is otherwise on point.


HarryHaller73

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #216 on: March 08, 2018, 05:04:44 PM »
One important observation I've made with good sauce is not only flavor but enough wetness to make a shiny wet layer on top of the crust, some call it a thin gumline but it's not gummy at all, and when baked, the slice isn't dry.  IMHO, a good slice has juice, when folded and take first bite, as my friend Josh says, the sauce squirts into your mouth.  After a slice has cooled somewhat, you can actually lift the cheese layer which has intermingled with the sauce to expose the wet crust layer, which is essential to a slice, in concert with the soft chewy innards and the light crispy undercrust.   Also, a wet sauce gets to boil and produce the scalding temps of a great slice.  Sauce boiling with the cheese, also changes the cheese texture.  I'm not a fan of sauce that turns into almost paste when done baking.  Lastly, I can imagine the perfect sauce ratio but if I had to pick, I prefer over sauced than under sauce.  Just some random thoughts


« Last Edit: March 08, 2018, 06:16:56 PM by HarryHaller73 »

HarryHaller73

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #217 on: March 08, 2018, 06:11:20 PM »
Nothing like a hot gooey cheese/sauce blob.

https://youtu.be/f2GuFCyfOhc?t=5m37s
« Last Edit: March 08, 2018, 06:13:34 PM by HarryHaller73 »

Offline timgiuffi

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #218 on: March 08, 2018, 08:11:20 PM »
When I was a kid I went through a phase where I would remove the cheese from the slice and eat it separately. I have lots of fond memories of eating the naked wet crust.
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Offline Josh123

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #219 on: March 09, 2018, 09:56:11 PM »
I've played around with a lot of fancy sauce recipes but last week I tried and loved this unassuming recipe for a Jet's Pizza sauce clone (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8247.240):

14 oz of Cento diced tomatoes
1/8 tsp of granulated garlic
2 tsp of oregano
2 small pinches of kosher salt

I used diced Cento tomatoes in a box because for some reason they are much sweeter than the crushed variety.  I first pureed the tomatoes then added the spices and salt and marinated for a couple of hours before baking.  This was a very basic sauce but its consistency and tomatoey flavor were surprisingly close to a classic NY slice.  I found that putting the oregano in the sauce brought out a more complex herbaceous flavor than when it goes on the pizza.  I'd use a tad less oregano next time but this is otherwise on point.

Jets is incredible, imo.

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