A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Author Topic: Pizza Canotto with Biga  (Read 49854 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Icelandr

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1512
  • Age: 73
  • Location: Gabriola Island, British Columbia
  • Infinite Monkey Theorem at work
Re: Pizza Canotto with Biga
« Reply #40 on: September 05, 2019, 03:24:36 PM »
Thanks Doouball, I assumed Neapolitan because of the thread it was in and havenít been following closely.
Greg
PizzaParty 70x70, saputo floor

Offline DoouBall

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1189
Re: Pizza Canotto with Biga
« Reply #41 on: September 05, 2019, 05:31:02 PM »
All good - in my case I'm shooting for Neapolitan-ish since I bake at 750F for 2 minutes, but it's perfectly fine to make it slower since the higher hydration typical of Canotto style (typically 65 to 75%) allows for longer bake times if needed.
Alex

Outdoor Oven: Blackstone. Indoor Oven: Gaggenau.

Offline morrissey

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 63
  • Location: new york
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Pizza Canotto with Biga
« Reply #42 on: September 06, 2019, 12:40:28 AM »
Would you advice mixing the dough by hand instead of using a machine (don't have access to a machine)?

Hey Lance, good to see you on here! Yes, I'm doing all as you have described. Yes, any strong flour 13%+ in protein will work for biga - it just needs to stand up to the long room temp ferment. I have been told by pros that regular flour like 11-12% protein will work too, but it's really much better to use 13%+. The timing in balls may vary based on the exact power of your yeast - I believe Arne Jervell mentioned that the fresh yeast he gets in EU is very strong for example. But the cool thing is you can safely let your dough balls double or more in this recipe - biga keeps them from collapsing.

I recommend using the MasterBiga app for calculating the exact timing on biga. I have no commercial affiliation with the app, I just think it's really helpful. Based on your specific temperature, it recommends the hydration and timing on the biga to achieve perfect maturation - I think that's awesome as it takes the guesswork out - "Is my biga ready yet?" Biga is clumpy(see pic above) and doesn't actually rise that much so it's very hard to tell by eye when it's ready. Final tip - use at least 1000g flour in your total recipe including biga in the Famag - biga based doughs tend to be very very strong so they can easily wrap around the hook which makes closing the dough hard. A larger quantity of total flour helps avoid this. Good luck!

Offline DoouBall

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1189
Re: Pizza Canotto with Biga
« Reply #43 on: September 06, 2019, 01:15:03 AM »
Would you advice mixing the dough by hand instead of using a machine (don't have access to a machine)?

Sure, you can mix by hand - it might not have as much strength as the same dough mixed with a spiral mixer, but it will likely be more tender. If you use the biga, I would follow Jim Lahey's mixing method - disperse the biga in the remaining formula water with a whisk first - get it nice and frothy. Combine the flour+salt in a separate bowl and then add it to the bowl with the biga+water. Mix until evenly combined and then add the oil (if using) and mix until evenly combined. It will not be perfectly smooth yet - that's ok. Rest and give it a series of stretch folds every 10-15 minutes until the dough is smooth and homogeneous. The rest of the process is the same. Normally, stretch folds are every 30 minutes, but there is a good amount of high power biga in this formula, so you don't want to leave it at room temp for too long before beginning bulk ferment in the fridge. Good luck!
Alex

Outdoor Oven: Blackstone. Indoor Oven: Gaggenau.

Offline zitoun

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 3
  • Location: France
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Pizza Canotto with Biga
« Reply #44 on: September 25, 2019, 03:48:05 PM »
Thank you Doouball for your contribution  :D.

I never try biga before but I really want to test. I have some question :

What the difference if we use 20% of biga and 100% of biga in the final dough ?

My second question is : if I use for exemple 20% of biga in my final dough, biga is ready in almost 18h. After I mix my final dough with the rest of flour, water and salt ,  i make balls and let them at room temperature (24įC for exemple) for 5 hours or 20 hours in the fridge. Correct ?

And if I use 100% biga is this the same thing : my biga is ready in almost 18h, after, i mix with the rest of water and salt, and after I let balls at room temperature for almost 5 hours ?

Thank you for you answer

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline DoouBall

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1189
Re: Pizza Canotto with Biga
« Reply #45 on: September 25, 2019, 06:05:45 PM »
Thank you Doouball for your contribution  :D.

I never try biga before but I really want to test. I have some question :

What the difference if we use 20% of biga and 100% of biga in the final dough ?

My second question is : if I use for exemple 20% of biga in my final dough, biga is ready in almost 18h. After I mix my final dough with the rest of flour, water and salt ,  i make balls and let them at room temperature (24įC for exemple) for 5 hours or 20 hours in the fridge. Correct ?

And if I use 100% biga is this the same thing : my biga is ready in almost 18h, after, i mix with the rest of water and salt, and after I let balls at room temperature for almost 5 hours ?

Thank you for you answer

I have not done 80-100% biga, but from my understanding, some people prefer to skip bulk fermentation, so they do an 80-100% biga or poolish, then mix their final dough, rest for 20-30 mins and then form balls. Doing 80-100% biga or poolish develops a lot of strength and eats up a good amount of sugars, so it's best to skip bulk fermentation following that. You need to form balls and be very careful not to overferment them - I once overfermented an 80% poolish based dough, and the results were not good - pizzas were flat and the crust color was pale from all the sugars being used up.

Dario Scopelliti, Pasquale Cozzolino and Paolo Spadaro have recommended recipes with 20 to 33% biga in the final formula. I believe this gives a greater margin of error and better flavor compared to 80-100% because of longer overall fermentation due to not having to completely eliminate the bulk fermentation step.

If you use 20% biga, then once you form your final dough, you can either do 6 hours bulk ferment at room temp and then 18-24 hours in balls in the fridge, or you can do 18-20 hours bulk ferment in the fridge followed by 4-6 hours in ball at room temp.

If you do 100% biga, I recommend you make your final dough, wait a max of 20-30 minutes, form balls and then bake them when they double at room temp. The number of hours is hard to predict, but it could be as low as 2-3 hours at room temp because biga is so wildly active.
Alex

Outdoor Oven: Blackstone. Indoor Oven: Gaggenau.

Offline zitoun

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 3
  • Location: France
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Pizza Canotto with Biga
« Reply #46 on: September 26, 2019, 02:20:10 PM »
I have not done 80-100% biga, but from my understanding, some people prefer to skip bulk fermentation, so they do an 80-100% biga or poolish, then mix their final dough, rest for 20-30 mins and then form balls. Doing 80-100% biga or poolish develops a lot of strength and eats up a good amount of sugars, so it's best to skip bulk fermentation following that. You need to form balls and be very careful not to overferment them - I once overfermented an 80% poolish based dough, and the results were not good - pizzas were flat and the crust color was pale from all the sugars being used up.

Dario Scopelliti, Pasquale Cozzolino and Paolo Spadaro have recommended recipes with 20 to 33% biga in the final formula. I believe this gives a greater margin of error and better flavor compared to 80-100% because of longer overall fermentation due to not having to completely eliminate the bulk fermentation step.

If you use 20% biga, then once you form your final dough, you can either do 6 hours bulk ferment at room temp and then 18-24 hours in balls in the fridge, or you can do 18-20 hours bulk ferment in the fridge followed by 4-6 hours in ball at room temp.

If you do 100% biga, I recommend you make your final dough, wait a max of 20-30 minutes, form balls and then bake them when they double at room temp. The number of hours is hard to predict, but it could be as low as 2-3 hours at room temp because biga is so wildly active.


Thank you so much for your really clearly and expanded answer. I will try probably next week and feed back my result.  :)

Offline fishton

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2
  • Location: PARIS
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Pizza Canotto with Biga
« Reply #47 on: October 04, 2019, 08:51:38 AM »
hello

May I ask you if you add yeast or malt in your refresh of the biga described earlier ?

thanks !

Offline DoouBall

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1189
Re: Pizza Canotto with Biga
« Reply #48 on: October 04, 2019, 10:16:23 AM »
I donít add either. When you use biga at 33%, there is no need for more yeast during the second phase. I havenít tried adding malt, but itís not a bad idea - just go easy on it if youíre baking at high temps or your bottom may burn early.
Alex

Outdoor Oven: Blackstone. Indoor Oven: Gaggenau.

Offline Matthew

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2529
  • Location: Oakville, Ontario
Re: Pizza Canotto with Biga
« Reply #49 on: April 18, 2020, 05:07:47 PM »
crawsdaddy, glad you got to try the technique out and I think you're right. Delayed salt addition is more important if you're using a high speed spiral mixer because it's so much more efficient at developing gluten than a KA, so it really helps to add the salt at the end. Using a KA and a short mix, it probably won't hurt to add the salt at the end, but it also might not make a huge difference.

With a spiral mixer, I found that I am getting much more tender doughs by mixing for 10 minutes on high (200rpm) with delayed salt addition than 8 minutes on low (100rpm) with salt added at the start. So even mixing for 2000 revolutions I get more tender dough than 800 just by timing the salt addition.


Alex,
Are you still using the DN5?

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline DoouBall

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1189
Re: Pizza Canotto with Biga
« Reply #50 on: April 18, 2020, 08:18:11 PM »

Alex,
Are you still using the DN5?

Matthew, I'm not - I ended up returning it within the 30 day window. It was just awkwardly big in my living room as I had to keep it on the floor and I didn't enjoy using/cleaning it. I ended up getting a Famag IM-5S which is just small enough to sit on my counter and am reasonably happy with it. It's a lot easier to clean with a tilt head, but I have to admit that my KitchenAid is more enjoyable to use due to the ease of cleaning. I also like the variable speed on the Famag and typically use 2 speeds when mixing. I use Famag anytime I'm doing 1000g or more flour or using a biga/poolish as it mixes those much much more effectively than KitchenAid.

Alex
Alex

Outdoor Oven: Blackstone. Indoor Oven: Gaggenau.

Offline amolapizza

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2058
  • Location: Luxembourg / Spain
  • If pizza is food for the gods, what are we..
Re: Pizza Canotto with Biga
« Reply #51 on: April 18, 2020, 08:23:56 PM »
FWIW, I have a Sunmix 6, with fixed head.  I just fill a scotch brite pad with water carry it over to the mixer and wipe down the bowl and the spiral.  After I've removed the water I dry it with a towel, takes only a minute or two to clean it..
Jack

Effeuno P134H (500C), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Saccorosso, Mutti Pelati.

Offline DoouBall

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1189
Re: Pizza Canotto with Biga
« Reply #52 on: April 18, 2020, 08:27:51 PM »
I do that too - it still takes longer and more work than a KitchenAid where I just use the paddle. I can throw the bowl and paddle to soak for a few minutes and rinse within 20 seconds. Hard to beat that. But spiral mixers produce better results, so I go back and forth when I need it. Certainly, for pizza dough, I always use spiral. For bread, I've found the mixing techniques from Jim Lahey, Richard Bertinet and Peter Reinhart for the KitchenAid have given me excellent results as well, after years of not being too happy with it.
Alex

Outdoor Oven: Blackstone. Indoor Oven: Gaggenau.

Offline sk

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 823
  • Location: Marietta, GA
  • Belle Pizze!
Re: Pizza Canotto with Biga - how to do biga right
« Reply #53 on: April 18, 2020, 08:42:13 PM »
Recipe screenshot is attached along with a picture of the biga right after mixing, and a picture of the biga when it's ready for the final mix. Not clear from the screenshot is that I was using the dry yeast option (IDY). Final dough went into fridge for 20 hour bulk. Balls formed and fermented at room temp for 5 hours prior to baking.

DoouBall, this is an old post but I will ask.  You indicated you used IDY.  MasterBiga as I use it only shows a fresh yeast option.  Your recipe shows 2 grams.  How much IDY did you use (if you recall)?
Pizza Party 70x70 WFO/Saputo Floor

Offline Icelandr

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1512
  • Age: 73
  • Location: Gabriola Island, British Columbia
  • Infinite Monkey Theorem at work
Re: Pizza Canotto with Biga
« Reply #54 on: April 18, 2020, 09:32:15 PM »
Alex, Thank you so much for replying to my many questions concerning your Biga techniques! I am not yet happy with my results, but you added a great deal to my search for techniques and solutions, thanks for your time. We shall see how it goes, early days for Biga by the Icelandr yet.


Greg Stephenson
Greg
PizzaParty 70x70, saputo floor

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline DoouBall

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1189
Re: Pizza Canotto with Biga - how to do biga right
« Reply #55 on: April 18, 2020, 11:29:48 PM »
DoouBall, this is an old post but I will ask.  You indicated you used IDY.  MasterBiga as I use it only shows a fresh yeast option.  Your recipe shows 2 grams.  How much IDY did you use (if you recall)?

I used 2 grams dry yeast. In MasterBiga, you first select either Manual Mode or Water Calculation to determine how to calculate your Biga. Manual Mode allows you to adjust Biga hydration yourself, and Water Calculation does it for you. You then hit Calculate to find out when your biga will be ready. After that, click Full Recipe at the bottom of the page to display the full recipe calculation. In the Full Recipe, under Yeast, there is a pull down menu that allows you to select Fresh or Dry. Dry is IDY. In case you're not seeing it anyway, the adjustment as MasterBiga recommends it is half. So if it suggests 4g Fresh, then you use 2g dry. I'm not exactly sure why, but I have found MasterBiga quite accurate for the maturation of Biga. Good luck!
Alex

Outdoor Oven: Blackstone. Indoor Oven: Gaggenau.

Offline DoouBall

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1189
Re: Pizza Canotto with Biga
« Reply #56 on: April 18, 2020, 11:30:47 PM »
Alex, Thank you so much for replying to my many questions concerning your Biga techniques! I am not yet happy with my results, but you added a great deal to my search for techniques and solutions, thanks for your time. We shall see how it goes, early days for Biga by the Icelandr yet.

Greg Stephenson

Glad I could help Greg! Please let me know if you have any other questions. Cheers,

Alex
Alex

Outdoor Oven: Blackstone. Indoor Oven: Gaggenau.

Offline sk

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 823
  • Location: Marietta, GA
  • Belle Pizze!
Re: Pizza Canotto with Biga - how to do biga right
« Reply #57 on: April 19, 2020, 08:57:36 AM »
I used 2 grams dry yeast. In MasterBiga, you first select either Manual Mode or Water Calculation to determine how to calculate your Biga. Manual Mode allows you to adjust Biga hydration yourself, and Water Calculation does it for you. You then hit Calculate to find out when your biga will be ready. After that, click Full Recipe at the bottom of the page to display the full recipe calculation. In the Full Recipe, under Yeast, there is a pull down menu that allows you to select Fresh or Dry. Dry is IDY. In case you're not seeing it anyway, the adjustment as MasterBiga recommends it is half. So if it suggests 4g Fresh, then you use 2g dry. I'm not exactly sure why, but I have found MasterBiga quite accurate for the maturation of Biga. Good luck!

Thanks!  For some reason, I missed that pull down.  duh????
Pizza Party 70x70 WFO/Saputo Floor

Offline DoouBall

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1189
Re: Pizza Canotto with Biga - how to do biga right
« Reply #58 on: April 19, 2020, 12:11:48 PM »
Thanks!  For some reason, I missed that pull down.  duh????

It's not you - the app doesn't have the most intuitive user interface. Once you figure it out, it can save you a lot of time and takes the guesswork out of making the biga. Cheers!

Alex
Alex

Outdoor Oven: Blackstone. Indoor Oven: Gaggenau.

Offline albacore

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 28
  • Location: UK
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Pizza Canotto with Biga
« Reply #59 on: April 19, 2020, 04:01:10 PM »
Anyone tried PizzApp+? I guess it's similar to MasterBiga - maybe a bit easier to work. I haven't tried it with biga, but it was pretty accurate for idy weight in a straight 24hr dough.

Lance

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


 

wordpress