Author Topic: Pete-zza Does JerryMac's NY Style Pizza (Read 92067 times)

NY pizzastriver · « **Reply #100 on:** November 18, 2009, 05:59:10 PM »

Quote from: Pete-zza on November 18, 2009, 05:48:18 PM

Jim,

Good job, including adapting the dough formulation to accommodate a combination of room-temperature and cold fermentation of the poolish. I especially wondered about the honey in light of your comment about getting more crunch on the rim. Honey is a highly hygroscopic material--more so than sugar--so it does become difficult to get a crispy and crunchy rim because the honey keeps more moisture in the dough.

Will we have to keep coming up with new ideas for you to try out to be sure that you stick around the forum ?

Peter

Thanks for the compliment, and I'm not leaving, but it's nice you want me to stay.

Interesting on the honey, never thought of that. Maybe the overnight poolish and autolyse helped? This had no chance to hit any breaks, like I said it really just grew slowly. The flavor and consistency were really nice though.

Yeah, new ideas, I agree. I have basically been messing with the same formulas, stretching GB's to 9 days, adding the above to this, but who knows what's next! I just hope I take home this month's prize for the "Autumn Harvest" contest, my entry is in and I could use that new Cadillac!

Wait, that might be Glengarry Glen Ross I'm thinking of...hmm.

torontonian · « **Reply #101 on:** November 18, 2009, 06:59:58 PM »

I thought I'd post back my experience with this dough.

The rise on the dough was huge, so I did indeed punch it down about 90 minutes before baking. It rose up again almost to full size within the last 90 minutes.

I apologize for not having any pics (need a new memory card for the camera), but the visual results were similar to some of the other pics - very airy. The chewiness and crust were spot on for me.

The only problem i had, was that there was a definite yeasty taste. I'm almost positive I had the yeast measurement correct, so I wonder if it was the overnight in the fridge that developed this flavour.

Any ideas?

Thanks for the recipe Jerry.

Pete-zza · « **Reply #102 on:** November 18, 2009, 07:30:39 PM »

Josh,

I suspect that the "yeasty" flavor was a combination of the IDY, which is used in fairly large amount to begin with, and the increased fermentation byproducts that were produced because of the longer total fermentation time. Had you been able to use the preferment the same day, you would have had less in the way of fermentation byproducts. You still might have a "yeasty" flavor, which you may or may not like, but I think it would be less pronounced.

In the future, should you know in advance that you want to use cold fermentation of your dough, a logical approach would be to reduce the amount of yeast in the poolish while leaving the other variables (water temperature and fermentation temperature) the same as much as possible. Some experimentation with yeast levels may be necessary until you find the sweet spot for your purposes. That's a problem when using preferments. Their biochemistry is more complicated and it is more difficult to modify them with great precision and accuracy, especially if you change the fermentation regimen, as by going from room temperature to the refrigerator and back to room temperature. This requires good dough management.

Peter

torontonian · « **Reply #103 on:** November 18, 2009, 10:16:34 PM »

Thanks Peter. Agreed. The additional fermentation time probably did me in.

I really liked that recipe though. I will try it again either with the original spec, or one of the many successful variations.

Still learning!

-- Josh

IEatPizzaByThePie · « **Reply #104 on:** November 19, 2009, 03:38:00 AM »

This pizza looks great. A fluffy and airy crust is a normal characteristic of New York pizza, but this one looks even lighter and more airy than most. Is it because of the lack of oil?

NY pizzastriver · « **Reply #105 on:** November 20, 2009, 10:30:27 PM »

IEatPizzaByThePie, I'd say not really. In general oil softens the crust, yes, but the sugary honey would eradicate that omission I'd say. I also would say the overnight pre-ferm I did was the lightest and airiest I've seen. In general I see this pizza as a more bready type pie, great, but not ''NY light'' by any means. As we can see on Essen1s pizza project picks, the extra 100 degrees over 550 he achieves has a lot to do with getting what you speak of. I've never gotten it yet. You just can't in a home oven unless you're willing to lose insurance claims, in event of a fire, by cutting the oven latch.

That said yes it's a great pie! Still the best dough for same day usage I've had.

Pete-zza · « **Reply #106 on:** November 21, 2009, 10:12:40 AM »

I agree with Jim. I think the greater crust volume and height is due to the high hydration, the large amount of yeast and the availability of a lot of food for the yeast to use to create carbon dioxide to lift the dough to above average height. That "food" includes sugars in the honey that, in my experience, are usable more quickly and readily than ordinary table sugar. Also, everything is done at room temperature, where there is no restraint on the fermentation of the dough as would occur if the dough were placed in the refrigerator. I think the lack of oil in the dough also helps the dough to rise better.

In relation to the classic NY style pizzas baked in deck ovens or in higher temperature ovens, I would be somewhat surprised to learn that a NYC pizza operator would be using close to 5% sugar in any form. They would perhaps have to use pizza screens in their deck ovens and watch the bottom crust color development quite carefully. These matters aside, JerryMac's recipe does do a very good job for a dough that can be made in 8 hours from start to finish.

Peter

norma427 · « **Reply #107 on:** November 21, 2009, 11:12:25 AM »

NY pizzastriver,
Your pizza looks great.

It intrigues me about not using oil. I have read some about how the old pizza masters used no oil. Your light and airy crust look amazing.
Norma

NY pizzastriver · « **Reply #108 on:** November 21, 2009, 12:21:56 PM »

Norma, thanks!

Any praise from a pro is always nice to hear. And yes, no oil is pretty common in NY style. I've done the Lehmann both ways. At 550 I actually prefer some oil though as the slower bake time at 550 gives it too much chance to dry out and the oil aids in that issue. If I had your ovens I'd probably never use a drop!

Peter, I didn't want to take over Mike's thread continuing the poolish talk there, but I mentioned here I left mine out for an hour or so, then into fridge overnight. I only did this as the site I linked said 1/2 hr then in. What are your thoughts on going longer first, say 3 hrs? Do you think I cut the process short and it would get better with more pre-aging, so to speak?

Pete-zza · « **Reply #109 on:** November 21, 2009, 01:12:05 PM »

Jim,

One of the purposes of using a preferment such as a poolish is to shorten the dough preparation time once the preferment is ready. Of course, the total time from the start of the poolish to the end of the final mix will be longer but professional bakers, who are the biggest users of preferments, routinely prepare their preferments and have them on hand at the time they are ready to make their doughs, so for them it shortens the rest of the dough preparation process.

I personally prefer to use a more or less classic poolish because its hydration is high (100%) and the prefermentation is faster as a result. I also prefer to get a fair amount of the formula flour in the poolish and have it participate in the process of forming organic acids and other byproducts of fermentation. It seems to me that if you going to carve out a small amount of the total dough formulation, which is basically the definition of a preferment, and make just a dinky amount of preferment out of it and don't give it enough time to develop all of the byproducts of prefermentation, then you give up many of the benefits of the preferment and may not get the desired degree of crust flavor, aroma and texture. Putting the preferment into the refrigerator is a common option although the classic poolish is prefermented at room temperature. Refrigeration will slow down the biochemical activity of the dough, including the yeast and the enzymes, and this result will be reflected in the final dough. Maybe it won't matter much, but you also might not see a break point. There are many ways to skin the cat and some methods will be better than others, so some experimentation will usually be needed to get the desired end results. Often, the results comport with the user's personal schedule rather than trying to optimize the process itself.

JerryMac's recipe uses a preferment that is even thinner than a poolish and he crams a lot of flour and a lot of yeast into it--far more than one would normally use for a classic poolish--but that is why his results turn out so well. He isn't trying to make a dough with a long useful life. Where people most often go wrong with preferments is to freelance or ignore the biochemistry of the preferment and try to get it to do things that were not programmed into it. Then, when the results are not as desired, they will often ask why the recipe didn't work.

Peter

james456 · « **Reply #110 on:** December 15, 2009, 03:43:10 AM »

Hi !

I've just registered after reading a lot of the content on this forum; this is an exceptional forum with enormous value!

After seeing positive results from other members having tried this recipe, I'm giving it a shot. At the moment, my poolish is almost complete. However, I may not go ahead and make the pies today and thus is it possible to freeze the dough after the second fermentation is complete without any adverse affects?

If so, can I place the dough in some cling film and put it straight into the freezer? I don't have any containers that can fit in my freezer compartments.

james456 · « **Reply #111 on:** December 15, 2009, 06:18:31 AM »

ok, after some more research I've decided against freezing the dough.

I'm a newbie to pizza making; I didn't realized how hydrated this dough would be, I can barely knead it without it sticking to my hands. It's certainly going to be challenging stretching it out.

Will take and post some pics of the finished pie.

avidan · « **Reply #112 on:** March 21, 2010, 05:01:24 AM »

hey all,
ive been playing with wild sourdough starter in my pizza making, and the preferment you all described is making a huge difference.
since im using a wild yeast, my preferment times are a LOT longer (12-18 hours), but the output is amazing. i am having a big pizza party tomorrow, and with 30+ pies coming out of the oven, i hope i have some pictures to share!
the only variation i have made so far is to cut the honey in half since i am using a wood-fire oven (primavera) so i am getting a hot bake at about 750, and the browning happens anyway!
also, i am playing with a new yeast that i got from motorino in brooklyn, instead of just the italian yeast i got from sourdo.com
i will let everyone know how it plays out, but im optimistic.
-avidan
"debunking the Los Angeles water/pizza myth"

NY pizzastriver · « **Reply #113 on:** March 21, 2010, 11:03:08 AM »

Take pics! Everyone loves a pizza party!

Pete-zza · « **Reply #114 on:** March 21, 2010, 11:28:57 AM »

avidan,

I would also like to see your complete dough recipe, including detail on the amount and composition of your natural preferment. Some time ago, at the request of another member, I came up with a sample dough formulation using a natural preferment (a natural poolish) at Reply 22 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6515.msg58619.html#msg58619. Unfortunately, there was no feedback by anyone to prove (or disprove) the utility of the formulation. It looks like you have succeeded with a naturally leavened formulation. That is why I am interested in what you have been doing.

Peter

avidan · « **Reply #115 on:** March 21, 2010, 05:49:12 PM »

happy to share. i will try my best to get the exact measurements....but i must say, im not quite as "exacting" in my percentages as everyone here. I do use my scale, but since most of my mixing is done when i get home from friday/saturday festivities, i sometimes miss a gram or two

the big improvement on my preferment has actually been using a microwave! i microwave a mug of water for a minute, and then put the cup in the corner, and the whole bowl goes in overnight. its a wonderful warm moist environment for the yeast to develop. But be careful, don't turn on the microwave with the poolish in there, it will KILL your yeast.
in addition, i maintain my natural yeast in a 100% poolish, which made moving to your recipe so easy....
will post results this week.

avidan · « **Reply #116 on:** April 09, 2010, 03:37:57 AM »

i have been able to make this pizza using a wild starter and my brick oven.
i basically followed the process, and went with the following adjustment.
to get to a 65% hydration, i started with 60% water, 60% flour, 10% starter (which was fed the day before, and is maintained at 100% hydration)
this prefement sat for 12 hours! it was near peak, and i dropped in the remaining 35 of flour and other ingredients.
at this point, the bulk ferment and individual pie ferment was over 4 hours.
the crust didnt quite pop as much as what i have seen here with other yeasts, but we were very happy with the results. maybe i need to let the bulk ferment go even longer...

also, to note, i stopped using the honey, because the brick oven is getting hot enough for browning without it....and i am not a huge fan of sweet dough.

xiaobao12 · « **Reply #117 on:** May 16, 2012, 03:08:43 PM »

Hi Pete and all,

First post here. Thank you for your contributions to this community - this recipe was the first pizza recipe that I made a few months ago. Today, I made it again. It was very difficult at first - no pizza experience, very sticky dough, small disasters when sliding dough onto pizza stone, no pizza peel the first few times. The first time I made it, it tasted absolutely delicious. After that, it was always good. Today, it tasted very good. Also, the process went very smoothly today (no ripping of dough, nice round shape and smooth transitions to the peel and to the oven.

My dough had a slight yeasty taste sometimes and I am thinking that is because I prefermented for 11.5 hours - right?

My impression of the dough is that it is bready, while being airy. I made 3 toppings - one was pesto, one was marinara and one was a sausage tomato - all sauces were made from scratch. The one that tasted the best with this dough was the sausage one - it was thicker and matched the texture of the dough. The marinara one (SM tomatoes, garlic, evoo) was a little too light for the dough as was the pesto. I am thinking that I should try a different dough for those types of toppings? But I have no idea what types of doughs are out there.

Also, I wanted to ask Pete or anybody how you guys deal with the super sticky dough. I used plenty of flour today. The previous times, I had disasters transferring the dough to the peel (it was so soft and elastic). Today, I draped it over my arm and transferred it quickly onto the peel that had cornmeal on it. Is this the technique?

Lastly, what can I do about those huge bubbles? I opened the oven and tried to pop it during baking but it wouldn't pop.

Thanks so much.

Pete-zza · « **Reply #118 on:** May 16, 2012, 05:10:35 PM »

xiaobao12,

Quote from: xiaobao12 on May 16, 2012, 03:08:43 PM

My dough had a slight yeasty taste sometimes and I am thinking that is because I prefermented for 11.5 hours - right?

I would say that the yeasty taste was a combination of the taste of IDY and fermentation byproducts produced over a period of 11.5 hours. I estimate that about two-thirds of the IDY, or about 1%, went into the preferment.

Quote from: xiaobao12 on May 16, 2012, 03:08:43 PM

Also, I wanted to ask Pete or anybody how you guys deal with the super sticky dough. I used plenty of flour today. The previous times, I had disasters transferring the dough to the peel (it was so soft and elastic). Today, I draped it over my arm and transferred it quickly onto the peel that had cornmeal on it. Is this the technique?

Lastly, what can I do about those huge bubbles? I opened the oven and tried to pop it during baking but it wouldn't pop.

Handling sticky doughs, and especially ones that are also highly extensible, comes with experience. My recollection is that I also draped one of my JerryMac skins over my arm in order to deposit it onto the peel. Another approach is to use parchment paper that is first placed on the peel and upon which the skin is deposited and then dressed. Parchment paper is always a good option for doughs like JerryMac's that are high in hydration. Some people might view parchment paper as a crutch but if you are using expensive cheeses and toppings that you don't want to lose in case the pizza doesn't make it onto the stone, then I will happily use the crutch.

I suspect the bubble problem you experienced is because of the combination of a lot of yeast and a high hydration. You would perhaps have to reconstruct JerryMac's recipe to reduce the occurrence of bubbles. Or you might use a lower oven temperature in order to reduce the oven spring and the size of the bubbles. Some people lust for large bubbles in their crusts so it isn't always a negative.

I'm glad that you are enjoying JerryMac's recipe and results. His recipe is one of the most popular on the forum.

Peter

xiaobao12 · « **Reply #119 on:** May 16, 2012, 06:04:58 PM »

Hi Peter,

Thanks for reply.

I did use the parchment paper trick a few times and it works. I am slightly prone to not using it as I wonder if it's OK to use parchment with such high oven temps? The print on my parchment paper box (from Costco) says to not exceed 4xx. Sorry I can't remember it right now. Anyhow, I'm sure it's fine.

Peter, do you use a rolling pin to roll out the dough? Or do you shape it by pulling it into a circle?

Thank you!